Brain Soda Podcast - Episode 46 - The Oklahoma City Attitude Era

Episode Date: January 6, 2024

On this week's episode we're talking about all three of our favorite time period wrestling, the Attitude Era! And we'll be talking about an event the stunned America at the type and to this day, the Oklahoma City Bombing

He's crashing! Clear! Brain soda. It's the Brain Soda Podcast! I, as always, am your host Kyle, joined by my co-hosts and co-warts, Brad. How's it going? And Frog. What's Greg O'Lagon? Today, we're going to be talking about the Oklahoma City bombing, but first, we're going to be talking about a five-year span of the most prolific professional wrestling company of all time, and it's probably most prolific time period ever. And I want to say that arguably, it's undoubtedly seeded for success because it's kind of covered by what could consist of a Mount Rushmore and a half worth of choices for a Mount Rushmore professional wrestling in guys like Stone Cold Steve Austin, Shawn Michaels, Brett, oh man. I know exactly what you're talking about now.

We're talking about the attitude era. Ooh, yes. Like this is what I watched. What a time to be alive. Exactly, and like we've said this before, this is when everybody watched. Yes. The viewership for television ratings at this time was completely

different overall as a medium. Wrestling at that time completely different culturally. You could see it at WCW and WWF shows at this time where they would show up. There's college kids. There's families that I mean, dude, and they're jam-packing basketball arenas, hockey arenas, across the country. The biggest arenas everywhere, yeah, like the biggest, yeah, it was just ingrained in our culture at this point. So I don't think you fail with a roster like this, like even in the early kind of attitude era. So just so we know what time frame we're talking about, this is like late, late 96, right? Into 97 and then going forward

as the attitude era overall, but focusing on that early era point, like you have the NWO with their rival competitor, WCW overtaking them ratings wise. This is after the steroid and other early 90s scandals that Vincent kind of luckily survived. Yeah, we talked about that in the past episodes. Yeah, we've referenced it lightly, yes, definitely. Yeah.

But regardless, like, the business was not at the best point within just a number of years beforehand, right? Yeah. Vince is on the losing end of a war, but Vince has the name recognition and value, and Vince has the talent. He really does have the talent. I mean, both him and the people on when you say the talent, because like Vince, man, look it back, because we talked a little bit about wrestling and every time we do, Facebook just in and dates me with little wrestling shorts, other ads, you know. I'm telling you, man, the internet and wrestling

have bonded love. Oh, they do, yeah. Man, Vince though, like he was a figure of himself, you know? And like, I mean, in the sense that like, he pushed the company forward with like, being involved with the actual show and the production and stuff like that, I feel. Vince up until, literally, the point that we're working towards here was just a on-air...

Do you think Vince is a good guy? No, no. No. No. No! I don't think Vince is a good guy? No, no, no. No, no. I don't think this is a good guy at all. Is it any like a like while he's pretty much like a RBYC type figure, right? Pretty much.

Yeah. But no, Vince was pretty much just an on air figure. And like it was kind of somewhat fourth wall reference at times that Vince was the owner of the company. When Kevin Nash and Scott Hall are leaving for WCW in Madison Square Garden, the place that his dad built and promoted for years, years upon years, hand it off to him. Vince allowed or these guys, Sean Michaels, Triple H, Kevin Nash, Scott Hall, all celebrate with each other in the ring, both good guys and bad. And it creates like this dichotomy that going forward, Triple H loses his spot.

So the next king of the ring winner, because that's who it would have been ends up being stone-cold Steve Austin Right Sean kind of can't lose because he is the champion at this point and he's he's not the guy who's gonna go down But he's also in a really bad place mentally and this causes a lot of turmoil between Right heart like on air or off air you're talking off air okay both no but like for real for real right and and I mean to be perfectly honest I did too and I think Brett is a guy who during this time had been back and forth off of television and like is instrumental in the rise of stone cold Steve Austin and things like that. But like what we're working towards here in the fall of 97 in my opinion like it is what sparks the attitude here because it bursts the Mr. McMahon character. It is what gives Sean Michaels like this larger than life status.

I bet he already had because he was such a big main event attraction, but to now be the guy who profited off of it, if at least see, like, when you say the attitude error, though, I will say Sean Michaels does not come to mind to me. Well, no, because we're talking, we're only talking the early stuff. He's right. Exactly. Well, I guess, I guess you, I know, I guess because that's the DX and everything or whatever. Yeah. 97. Yes at this point He's forming DX with triple A true. I always forget that. Yeah, I always forget that the other guy from the click Who stayed behind? See and that's what that's why because like when I think of the editor or I think of rock Mankind Stone Cold Steve Austin

Curtain go like who you said, you know, Undertaker Kane, like those, you know, like that. And that is the latter half and we're working towards Kane actually and the and the later half of this. So that's kind of continuing our timeline a little bit, right? So degeneration X is kind of formed in the real life rivalry and feud with Bret Hart and not just Bret Hart, but Bret Hart's real life kind of family within the business because his father much like Vince was a promoter as well. Stu Hart and his stepbrothers in the large part as well. Jim Knighthard, David Boy Smith, the British Bulldog and then you have the British Bulldog.

I don't know what you said that, it just brought that, yeah. So you also have Brett's real-life brother and Owen and you have Brian Pillman, who worked in Calgary, and actually had worked with Steve Austin, WCW, and they had been feuding around this point as well. And there's a whole like US, Canada rivalry happening. Now mind you, although all of this may sound really interesting

or really be like familiar to you because you watched it this time, they're losing for 83 weeks. Consecuatively, WCW beats Monday Night Raw with their efforts on Monday Night Show in the ratings. And what years is it? I think it streams across 96, 97, 98. Really?

Because yeah, I guess you're right, because I do remember that, man. I used to flip back and forth between the two. I always lean towards WWF, but. Right. That's not to say they've won every single quarter hour. That's not to say that there's not weeks, that there's a massive shift between those two channels.

And to be fair, I think even right now, WWE's numbers have floundered and ticked down wherever they've been for decades. Now with AEW as a company, even though AEW's numbers have kind of tilted down since their inception as a company, I think they both, the sense of competition, even if they're not actually competitive in that sense, kind of helps feed both of their numbers to a certain extent, you know. But this was way different. At this time, people would jump from channel to another, segment to another. But literally, it would hinge. And there's points where people would say the moment something starts happening, people are making phone calls and then I started watching.

Yeah and there's a number of different wrestlers. School would have said, I heard about this, I turned on the TV and I was hooked. So I mean this is really such a formative base and to be honest even looking at our numbers at times, why professional wrestling resonates with people, even if so many different times, you don't really see it taken all that seriously when presented in other media or discussed amongst people in a group or whatever.

Moving on, our rivalry with Sean and Brett has really kind of grew and festered. Stone Cold is still a rising figure, but I think it's kind of well-known at points that this is going to be the next guy, right? So he came from WCW, Stone Cold did? Yeah, originally. So originally he was a guy who broke in in Texas, right? Because of the territory system we had to provide to him. Yeah, I knew it from Texas. So world class was dead because the Von Erich soon to be featured in the film Iron

Claw, that story is well well known and a very sad one and maybe we will discuss it one day here. Anyway, he broke in there but Dallas got bought by the Memphis Territory. So there's literal stories of him eating tuna fish and potatoes. Driving around in a bus, just no money and like being ready to quit. And then he par lays that and he's wrestling the undertaker around that time too. Frog, you've seen the clips, we've seen them together. And that's like 89 and then in the early 90s, he's in WCW until like 95.

He comes here, he's the Ringmaster originally. And then, you know, we have the Stone Cold character, which he had done some in-between time in ECW. And that is kind of really the basis for Stone Cold's divastin. But moving on. The biggest feud around this time really highlights the Undertaker and Shawn Michaels. And of course Shawn Michaels at this point is DX, him, Rick Ruud, their kind of insurance policy is he's known Triple H obviously who we talked about at this point who's still the doghouse kind of sitting in the middle of the card but at this point he's added a valet to itself and really when we talked about like

controversial wrestling figures, this was one at this point, this is still 97, China. This is degeneration X and it's like prototypical base first form, right? Yeah. And literally is named by Bret Hart when he calls them degenerates in a promo. But this feud, the Undertaker and Sean Michaels has brewed for a while, even though Paul Barer is kind of on the Undertaker's back at this point as well. From further events in 97, that's more kind of related to the Undertaker. But this is going to culminate at a pay-per-view called Bad Blood. So we're already kind of getting into that like hard rock edge-lowered attitude, right? But this match is called the Hell in the Cell. This is the first Hell in the Cell match, and it is the advent and introduction of the undertaker's brother, a favorite of yours, Frog Kane.

One of my favorite wrestlers of all time. He is great. Rets had the belt and has to give it up before he actually is leaving for WCW as well. He refuses to do it to Sean, especially in Canada. And it doesn't really matter because the jig is up. They call for the belt as soon as Sean goes for Brett's own move and famously Vince McMahon, the

Mr. McMahon character is birthed from this decision and his rivalry with Stone Cold too is I think honestly one of the defining feuds because it lasts so long it's such a prominent thing throughout all of the attitude era that like it really is maybe the defining food of the attitude era. Yeah. I would almost make the argument that like WWF programming while having more of like an edge kind of put on to it because nature was a live program. The NWO was a edgy like we said like street gang-esque presented thing. Raw had a little bit of a dirtier look to it and it was always kind of considered raw because it was a live tape show or whatever, right? But here in DX, you have one thing with cane and these high-level stories this attitude era really does kind of start to show and this writing is done by a guy named

Vince Russo at this point largely credited at this point. Now Vince McMahon is always kind of known to be the filters well because everything Vince Russo does after he leaves here at some point in 1999 is bad. Like, WrestleCrap, well-known Google any of it, YouTube videos bad. Really? Yeah, he's the man. Yeah, it's terrible. And from these points, though, we get into what I want to say is the ultimately greatest aspect of the attitude here is that anybody in the mid card, anybody worthwhile to be in our program has a story, has something going on, you're not just getting cold matches, and from that you're also adding more respect and more ump onto things like that tag team division, which for a long time was

kind of considered middle of the road. And then we have Dudley boys, we have Edson Christian, we have the Hardy boys, and those become teams and acts that have followings that go on. Yeah. Now we're talking about, you know, Stone Cold is one, the Royal Rumble after Shawn Michaels and Kane have come through with the aftermath of the hell in the cell with Shawn Michaels and Steve Austin challenging each other at that year's WrestleMania in early 1998. WWE really kind of made its big wave into...

No, I'll tell you the defining match in all the attitude era. It was Kane, the rock stone cold in Shane McMahon versus did generation at... I don't care, remember that. Well, since we're talking about it, sorry. The one for me was, and I don't remember because I know what happened more than once, was when the rock and stone cold faced off at WrestleMania.

Cause I saw that paper view. So which one is your favorite? Is it the one where he beats the rock and stone cold faced off at WrestleMania. Cause I saw that paper view. So which one is your favorite? Is it the one where he beats the rock for the belt first? I think Stone Cold won, yeah. Yeah. Yeah, the corporate champion rock loses. Yeah, yeah, that's that's one of my favorites too. I don't know.

The second one I think may be the better match. The third one's the best, but it's way different at that point. Because like it's Hollywood rock and like there's a whole different context. Yeah. Those characters at that point. But now we're kind of moving into the Austin era proper because Shawn Michaels actually had a casket match at the rumble that Austin won to get to Mania. And he injured his back. Sean's about

to be out of the business for like a good five years, something, right? This, the whole rest of the attitude era of Brad, you're right. That's what I was going to say because I know I knew he came back in like case you are. He was the commissioner. He would come in and do commissioner stuff. So you did see him occasionally, but not very often. You're right. I always just saw him as like the old guy like because I was a kid But he wasn't did you like 30 I know but I was like oh, that's the old guy Yeah, like a whole Kogan type figure. I mean, it wasn't like it's old this whole Kogan But right still

Yeah, I mean, but to be fair that is kind of the context he was presented and he was never thought of as like somebody who could be considered an on-air threat or anything like that. And again, the big launch, the big push that comes here, and there's another one later on, but culturally, you know, what these guys are doing is talent is hitting and hitting with fans across the country, DX, Stone Cold, right? People are eating this stuff. But bringing in Mike Tyson on pay-per-view for the first time since the events of the Holyfield fight. Really? That's the first time. Yeah. Was a landmark. You gotta come see what the fuck is going to happen.

But literally there are several people of the WCW roster who are on record saying that next week at tapings or in their hotel rooms they knew. They knew the dynamic culture had shifted towards the WWF. And then later when you talk about the Super Bowl commercial that they do in 1999, I feel it really does show a landmark moment. And again, we're talking about around this point, Triple H and the Rock are having mid card feuds before they go on to be the leaders of the industry in the early 2000s, 2001 era when guys are jumping ship

from WCW to WWF to go make their careers when a WCW bought out WCW got bought because AOL time Warner merged and TNT and TBS turn a broadcasting did not want it really to be a part of the report fully of going forward. So their rights were essentially like out for sale and Vince came and scooped them up for pennies on the dollar. Wow. It is a very backdoor shady. I think you've told me about this, but what year was it though? Early 2001. Now mind you, literally at the exact same time, ECW, the third arguably perhaps second-out points company in the wrestling market in North America. Yeah, I always like ECW the most.

And I know I've said that before. But they're in bankruptcy court. Yeah. So think about that. Like the two and three competitors at the end of this time period, because the invasion is what ends this. It really is. It's the biggest flop. There's no Russo writing, but it ends like a bad Russo storyline, right? And there are a lot of

that we talked about in three ninjas, some uncharacteristically acceptable things from what's in 1999 to right now in 2023, right? And, you know, 1998, 1999, whatever it may be, you know, black face is not cool. And it occurs here at points, you know, there's certain things that happen that like, again, television at the time, it's something that the culture was willing to accept enough that, unfortunately, it's something that was there and we move on. You know what I think I think they knew it

was still like it was I hate to use this word but Racy at the time you know to do that but it was wrestling so they still did like a normal show probably would not do that at that time. It was no no, it was done because it was racy, right? Like, go out and doing the other guy's promo or doing a promo as the other guy had been a thing. That's a thing that people did. And doing it in blackface, I think, was just one of those things that they're like,

hey, yeah, we'll go to any limit. Exactly, exactly. We will. We truly, honestly, will. We'll almost sow some sun paper, we hope we certainly will. Yeah, they got pretty, they got pretty racy on that. I'm too, yeah. Right. They did. Yeah, they did. They would do so many different things. But again, man, I mean, there's so many different things

around this point where like, even if you're the big boss man and Al snow and a mid card feud in 1999 the big boss man will kill your dog and feed it to you like we're gonna make a story out of something and you guys are gonna have a match but this is one of the most beloved areas of professional wrestling and I think for a somewhat good reason man I mean I do suggest that I'm just glad that we were like ideal age for that era. I was seven years old I mean when I was coming home from school and it started yeah that's prime time I grew up watching. I was notorious for crotch chow you know giving the crotch chop.

Oh yeah coming off the ball. Oh, yeah, yeah, the suck it. Suck it. Yeah, oh, yeah, for sure. Yeah, yeah, all the time. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. But yeah, I mean, some things that I would suggest for you going forward. Following the degeneration X kind of timeline

throughout this, I think is a really good thing because you can follow the the origins of the attitude air in and of itself After Sean Michaels lost at WrestleMania 14. I believe is the number but is lost to Austin triple H the next night We'll say like Sean drop the ball. He takes over he brings back X-Pock the outlaws have been folded in You get them as baby faces. You get them as heels later You get the X-Pock came tag team and then X-Pock came rivalry, right? Like you get some cool stuff the Austin championship run and and Chase, right multiples

Rocks when did he start doing the what? What? What? Chase right multiples rocks when did he start doing the what what what That that is around the invasion Around that time okay, it's I thought so yeah like so like 2000 2001 so the invasions like the end of the attitude area Pretty much I mean it's when they fold it in a number of WCW and ECW talents to form the alliance. And there were so many good ones too, man. Like that, yeah. But, okay, so this is the worst part.

We are going to cover the alliance and its utter failings, but here's the reason why, just to sum up that segment whenever we do it. AOL Time Warner had to buy out and guarantee all these crazy deals. It's why originally, guarantee deals is why Scott Hall and Kevin Nash left. And like rightfully so, the business changed. So talent made more money when those changes happened, right?

But these deals were so crazy that guys sat home and made millions of dollars and didn't go. So in three to six months when they're doing the invasion storyline, you don't have staying, Rick Flair, Hulk Hogan, Sid Vicious, Scott Stein, all the older guys though, that's all these older guys you're talking about. One of the biggest problems with WCW was that all of those older guys were still the crux and the time they were at the time but even then you didn't have Jeff

Jarrett's you didn't have sting you didn't have you know Booker T is the biggest name five time five time diamond house page and a squander down Dallas page you know they did have though you know he does have some good yoga but who's that frog they had one of the most dynamic Tag team combos of all time. Too cool. Yeah. Yes Yes, but guys move people love you have the worm. Yes. Yes. I remember them. They're great Who's the one guy who's the one guy? I was like that British like stupid British And he was like a manager or something towards the end like or well later

You were talking about William regal. Yes, really yes He's actually an amazing Guy in a story. I know he is I know but still he was totally he was totally take the piss out of me on air character For most of what people know of him as a professional wrestling character until modern television in NXT and stuff when he's like a real figurehead commissioner on television. Okay. Yeah. You know that Kurt Angle rookie year is like... I met Kurt Angle. Did I ever tell you that? I met Kurt Angle when he was the champ. Yeah. And like got a hold hold the belt and everything is sweet. I know you

You told me I've held the picture with a signature before I know that you met Yeah, it was like a cave artist Well, that's I mean, but that's how it used to go public autograph signings Like that like because you're that big of a celebrity, right? Yeah, it was really cool. Yeah. And like, we paid something, I don't know, I don't know, or paying, whatever, you know, because I was kids. I didn't pay personally. But yeah. It probably, well, maybe what? It might have been 15, 20 bucks, who knows? Yeah. But yeah, you got to signate by 10. I'm sure you paid it. Yeah, he was huge. Like huge, man. Like way bigger than they think. And he was a

smaller guy. He, Brad, he wanted a limpic gold medal. We're the broke freaking neck. But you know, I mean, like, even like, I don't know, man, he just was just a giant. Like, he was like really, like, he was tall, but also like, just so freaking, like, he was just, you know, probably freaking serrated out of that point. But, you know, what's your favorite cane match from this time? Like did you really dig it when he beat Austin for the bell for like a day me? Yeah, um I Yeah, of course I as long as he was wearing that Sue. I was always rooting for him as soon as I wanted I loved the cane As soon as I want to I loved the cane X Like I will never I can stand extra

No, yeah, X pot go away. Yeah, yeah, I mean dude and then again that is the thing is there's just so many characters at this point that like Everybody has the godfather everybody had a segment or a thing going on that they really loved and I really I really loved at this point This is what made me a fan. I have to say And I I hope to share it with you all one day Maybe we could do a commentary on a paperview or something like that one time guys real quick r.i.p. To Owen Hart. Yes, rest in peace Owen Hart. Yes. Yes, for sure and Brian Hillman Well, I know the people that died in this bombing that we're about to download. Cause this actually happened a couple years before,

the time period, we were both talking about the 90s, I guess today. So I'm sure most of you guys know what the Oklahoma City bombing was, or at least have heard of it, you know. Negative. Oh, you don't, okay. No, sir.

This occurred on April 19th, 1995, when a 4800 pound ammonium nitrate bomb exploded at the entrance to the Alfred P. Moro building in Oklahoma City. And it occurred on the second anniversary of the showdown at Waco. So like, it was planned exactly for that day. And this bombing, though, it killed 168 people and injured over 850 more. And it remains to this day the most deadly active domestic terrorism to date in the US. Only being surpassed by September 11th, which that's like, you know, that was not domestic exactly. Yeah. So this was actually perpetrated by two people. Kind of, if you really like want to it was sort of perpetrated by like three or four, you know But not really it was mostly perpetrated by what but well planned right exactly

I mean like some people were involved there was because there was another guy or well There was definitely a second person That got life in prison, but there was a third guy too. I feel like you don't do this by yourself. Exactly, I mean, you could. Right. No, the way, like, because I'm gonna tell you, like, how he gathered everything and all that. You know, because he wrote a diary, you know, like,

yeah, well, I'm gonna say that raw. So yeah, but the two main people were Timothy McVeigh, which was like the main person, and then Terry Nichols, and Terry Nichols, like, I never, I don't think I've ever really heard about him. Maybe I guess I have, except I've listened to things about this.

He appears in Boeing for Combine. And I know we've watched that really. Okay. Like, and this is one thing, okay. We'll say I did not look up like the background of these guys because if you guys want to go listen to some true cry podcasts, you know, for sure, like go do that. We're not that type of podcast though. That's not what we are. I

don't want to like get into that type of stuff. So, I absolutely agree and to be fair, I would suggest maybe the last podcast episode about this. Yeah, the last podcast. If you want true cry, that's where to go. And I will say I'm more familiar with this one because of that. Exactly. So both of these guys though, were captured within days of the incident. They captured within 90 minutes of it, not because of the incident though.

They did meet in 1988 at Fort Benning when they were in basic training for the military. They also met a third guy named Michael Fortier or Fortier, I don't know how, you know, yeah, I've heard it pronounced both ways as well. So, right. Okay. He was his roommate, McFase roommate during his time in the army. So, like, you know, and he didn't eventually get charged as well, just not as much. But McVey and Nichols, though, they started getting radicalized by like white supremacy groups and anti-government propaganda and things like that. And that's really like what they were all about.

Like, you know, because they were, I guess, they were kind of... Libertarian a little bit. They're like white supremacist libertarians, I guess, that's what, you know, extremists. They were libertarian, very small government, which is one thing, but they also like found the government to be adverse to their day-to-day lives. Exactly. Well, that's a thing. Yes, this is where they went to the extreme. But they were reading literature like the Turner Diaries, which is a very famous like poorly written, by the way. Yes, and we'll get into that in a little bit later. Yeah. Yeah, they didn't like how like the FBI handled these two recent

sieges like the Waco and also... Ruby Ridge. Ruby Ridge, yeah. So Ruby Ridge was when I didn't read into this too much because we might actually cover some of these sieges as a whole maybe in the future episode. Yeah. It was, I guess the guy named Randy Weaver and his family. Yeah.

And like he like hold up, he was like this crazy like gun nut, you know, and like they had a shootout. Yeah. Yeah. During the siege of Lake O though in 93, a march of 93, McVeigh actually went there during the standoff. And because it was like, you know, it was like a media thing. And I have it, I have it on like 50 something days. People would line the road.

Exactly. That was crazy. But then he gave, he went there again after it. Because of these Sieges and stuff, you know. Make van Nichols, they started to get this view of the government where the government was like trying to restrict the rights of the citizens. And like this is kind of, you know, a lot of,

this is like the libertarian thought, through and through, I mean, in some senses, you know, like the proud boys and stuff like that, you know, like they're trying to take our guns and things like that Like that was what they were thinking that the government was gonna send in soldiers and stuff against the citizens And they're coming after the Second Amendment rights and things like that, you know, and again I didn't read it all through his diary and stuff So like it's a lab or nuance than that like he was like he wrote this crazy like manifesto and all that stuff

I'm sure it's a Alex Jones wet dream of globalists and you know liberal media and all these different other offenders. Exactly, but from the gist of it I get like I just kind of get where it's like well since the government you know is attacking us the citizens it's time time for us to get their turn in all the frogs, that it's war, right? So he's like, so I need to attack a government building, you know, or assassinate somebody, right? Right. Um, and he first thought to assassinate people, that was his first thoughts, I guess, was to go after people like the attorney general at the time, Janet Reno, or this FBI sniper named

Lawn Horriucci, who was was president both Ruby Ridge and Waco so like you know he was like oh this sniper out there yeah yeah but ultimately though he for max effects probably he set a lot of attacking a building oh no he knew he couldn't take Horrucci that's what probably I mean yes exactly more than likely cuz Because it's like, okay, I don't know. And I don't know. I did look at pictures of this guy, but I, in my mind, this whole time reading through this,

I always just imagine like a pinky and a brain type going on, where it's like, you know, he's like the brain, and then, uh, Nichols is like, fakey. He's like, we're gonna get him this time. Oh, okay.

Okay, Timmy. All right, Timmy, we're gonna get up today time. Oh, okay. Okay, see me. All right, Timmy, we're gonna get up today. Oh my God. Just imagine it like that, if you will. Yeah, no, I kind of do though. They ultimately decided on attacking a building, right? And they initially planned on just destroying the building itself, but decided to do it with people in there

because, you know, the government workers are the enemy, right? They wanted to kill them people. they were thinking about trying to minimize citizen casualties all throughout even though they didn't because they're not bomb experts you know yeah kindness sounds counter-intuitive yeah like they're not really you know they're not explosive just the devilish and experts like that so they don't know what they're doing. So McVeigh wanted a attack of sight though that contain at least two of the three federal law enforcement agencies.

So two of the three of either the ATF, FBI, or the DEA, right? The people that actually go after criminals and things like that. The law enforcement arm of the federal government. I mean, yeah. I'm sure if there was some CIA building in there he would have creamed his jeans for it. Exactly. Nope. That's literally my next line that I have written here

is that if there was some like secret service or marshals, they were fine, too. That was just a bonus. But he definitely wanted those other three, though, two of those three. And at the time, when he started planning this, he lived in Arizona. And I hate to bring up these things

because there's just so much baggage with all this but like QAnon and the proud boys and all this stuff and like that's kind of like what he was. It seems like to me from what I'm reading like that's what he seemed like to me it's something like crazy conspiracy theorist so he started looking around though he looked in like Missouri and Arizona, Texas, Arkansas and all that and he did find he like I said, he wanted to minimize civilian casualties. So, thoughtful though.

You know what, man, you got to war against the government. Well, think about it. He's in this mindset. And you're like, you know what, man? I don't want to kill no people. Obviously, it was crazy, but he's like, I only want to kill government employees. I don't want to kill the average everyday Joe.

Even though people who work for the government typically are just the average everyday people, exactly, the people that are making those decisions, there's a Simmons tower in Little Rock, Arkansas that he was considering at first. But then he found out there was this Flores shop on the ground floor. So he's like, oh man, you know, can't blow that up.

There's a Flores shop down there. Yeah, no. So he's like, Oh man, you know, can't blow that up. There's a Flora shop down there. Yeah, no fly on. Exactly. Well, yeah. But in December of 94, him in 48, they visited Oklahoma City and they decided on that L for P. Marrow building because it was just a federal building, right? It was nine story building and house 14 federal agencies that included the DEA ATF, a social security administration. So yeah, I better get those checks. Yeah. And then also though recruiting offices for the military. So you know, he's like, oh yeah, get the military. He's on that one. He also liked the building because he thought like the glass front would blow out easily, you know, causing more death. And it did. And also liked the building because he thought like the glass front would blow out easily,

you know, causing more death and it did. And also there was a large parking lot adjacent to it. Yeah, I'm aware of that. Collateral damage, I don't want to have happened to the common citizens. To the people in the building, but because there was a big parking lot. I like that.

There was a big parking lot and he thought, it's just so fine. I know, just all he thought it's just so Stupid because this is the thing this is that this is what I mean This is like someone that doesn't understand this, you know He put somehow was able to build this crazy Bob because yeah, he's like yeah There's a big parking lot. That'd be all right Nobody's gonna get hurt because there's a big parking lot around it and you know They can hurt any of the other buildings or anything and we're gonna do what happens when the boat's up

But but he he planned this attack to coincide like I said with the anniversary of the second anniversary of Waco But also it was the 220th anniversary of the Battle of Lexington and Concord Which was one of like the two initial battles of the American Revolution, right? So like he was like oh, we're a big battle. They were very big battles. Yeah. I'm gonna Shrack the first cord, baby. We're coming back. Yeah, it kind of was kind of thinking like that. So they started building the bomb and this is like when you when I said you know I am gonna kind of tell you how the bomb is built I am but like man this it is complicated like it don't like crazy people

I mean, I just wouldn't yeah just don't give enough specifics that somebody could try to believe it But I'm not because I'm just gonna say like huge fertilizer and that's the thing you can use fertilizer to make a crazy bomb Yeah, yeah, so in August of 94 they purchased and started stealing most of the components to make this bomb. But they also got this some explosives from this gun collector named Roger E. Moore. No relation. They tested out these explosives and Terry Nichols backyard though, or front yard, I don't like to say this yard. So and I don't I don't think he was like in the middle of a town, you know, but you think he's like're just like Let's test out these these explosives in our yard But McVeigh and Nichols ended up robbing Roger Moore a little bit later on like a few months later for over

$60,000 that like broke into his house while he's there and round him of guns gold silver and jewels and like before the bombing And like they use that to you know fund a lot of the bombing and stuff like that Right, right. I was gonna say to try to lay the groundwork. Oh the This I'm gonna try to get away. Yeah, yeah, exactly. Yeah, the uses they stole his van too And they use all the they stole from him. You know, they packed it up in his van and stole the van too. Oh my god Yeah, yeah. And you know what? Here's the thing.

This is the thing that sucks is because this criminal has no recourse. I'm sure he didn't call the cops. So they were not a lookout for this van and this crime couldn't have been averted. No, because they did find like all the loot and stuff after he was arrested and like of storage sheds. Like they used bunch of storage sheds to, you they used a bunch of storage units or whatever to like, yeah, put all their stuff, yeah, not sheds. Okay, I was gonna say like,

what a bunch of tweaker, I spit my head, but yeah, the storage units make sense, right? Yeah, yeah, so in September of 94 though, this is like six months before it happens because it happened in April, 95, okay. So they bought 40, 50 pound bags, so 2000 pounds of ammonium nitrate fertilizer. This is the thing, they went to a co-op,

they went to a co-op to buy this, right? And they, like, you gotta think like, oh, these people are coming in and buying 40, 50 pound bags, you know, like there's these big bags of fertilizer. That looks kind of weird, when do you think, like in my eyes, right? That, that to me would look weird. Depending where you're at.

No, no. No, it only covers about 12 and a half acres Like if you're a farmer you're by way more than that like so like no, it's not weird up They were like oh look at this couple getting a garden together and that cute. Yeah Exactly. Yeah. Oh, they got a nice bigger. You know nice Maybe some farmers start with stuff But he did on October 18th. He bought one more bag though So maybe he's just I've seen it one more back He's yep, that total frog mode. He probably maybe he probably probably dropped one or something in spill

He's like I'm gonna go back and get another bag Yeah, you know what you're here on the plan exactly. Yeah, Terry if you get yet Okay, put around this time though, in October 2. He approached 48, and he started, like, he... He tried to bring him in on the project, right? He, like, showed him the schematic of the bomb and everything, and he's... and his wife, too, his wife, Laurie. They've sat up both down and, like, shown this diagram

with his bomb, those 5,000 pounds, or 2, 2300 kilograms of ammonium nitrate, 1200 pounds of liquid nitro methane, which is like racing fuel, and 350 pounds of this water gel explosive called Tovex. And I think that's what they bought from Roger, is this Tovex stuff. It looks kind of like these like tubes of like jelly kind of,

or, yeah. Yeah. And it's just an explosive like it is literally just meant to exactly it's like a water gel yeah it's like you like you know you add a fuse to it and explode yeah and that's what they used to ignite it you know like they turned them down that's what he refused like when 48 was like no I'm not gonna he's like whoa bro I'm not gonna help you blow up this time federal building yeah like yeah you know I'm a radical help you blow up this shine That reveal me Yeah, like yeah, you know, I'm a radicalist too, right? You know, he's probably like yeah I think I've ever been okay, but I'm not gonna go this much, you know

So whatever, you know, he moves on and but that's enough to get a conspiracy charge that is yes right um and McVay he got the fertilizer right that was the easy part now He needed to get this nitro methane. Again, I'm not, yes, I'm not explaining anything. He just needed to get my nitro methane too. And the racing fuel, I'm just, yeah,

to make it explode better, right? You know, racing fuel probably explodes good. I mean, right. Yeah, but he couldn't really get anybody to sell it. So if you go to like these race tracks, right? And be like, hey, I need some nitro method for my card And they are you don't shady be in like military fatigues People be like, hey, no, we're not selling you any you have to be like a company

You know, I go legit like racing company you and you can tell you know Well, you go to a racing place. They're all like decked out on all the different sponsors and everything, you know, like what you see people like that. Yeah, like they got like designed shop gear on because it's got all the logos and stuff on it. Exactly. I mean, even so, like finally though, he went to another race and approached people saying he was a motorcycle racer and he needed it for his bike and again Pete a lot of people were turning him down, but finally this this dealer was like yeah man I'll sell you some and he purchased three 55 gallon drums of it when usually you need to purchase like 2 to 5 gallons or so, you know for the event like that's how much you need

Yeah, he bought three freaking drums, three, you know, big old, oh no. Oh no. Yes. Yeah, and they like, you know, the FBI later interviewed the guy that sold it to him. The guy said, yeah, I thought it was weird, but you know, he still sold to him anyways.

Right. Yeah, he's probably want to just make the sale. You know, he's like, what I don't care what you're doing with it. Capitalism, bro. Exactly. Capitalism. Yeah, if you want it with it. Capitalism bro. Exactly. Capitalism.

Yeah, if you want it, it's bad. Yeah, if I'm not trying to point Capitalism, but right, exactly. Like, oh, you want to buy 50, 55 gallon drums? I can get that for you. I'll make a 2% markup on all of it. Exactly. Yeah.

Oh, you want to buy my whole inventory right here? Yeah, sure. Yeah, exactly. So like I said earlier, he stored all this stuff in the storage, um, storage container and like all the, pretty much the entire bomb, right? He had this bomb sitting in a storage container and like spoolsed like the, the blasted caps and the shock tubing and all that. And he made a prototype bomb and tested it out of the desert and it worked. So he's like, all right, cool, I can make the bomb now and come April, April 14th, right?

So this is five days before it happened. That was not one bag. I bet you his dumb, forgot to make a prototype bomb. And then he's like, I bet I better get one more bag. Yeah, that might be, yeah, that's true. But yeah, so he ran in the room and jumped to City, Kansas, and then a truck the next day under An alias and on April 16th

He and him and Nichols drove to Oklahoma City where they stashed the Giotaway car Which was a 77 mercury Marquis and like yeah, I think man. This is 95 right? So that's a 20-ish year-old car 18 year-old car It's this bullet yeah, and yeah, and it didn't have a license plate So it's all this. Yeah. And yeah, and it didn't have a license plate. So it's all this, like, this is crappy car that no license plate. Yeah, that's sort of getaway car.

But so over the next couple days, though, they started removing all the bounce supplies from the storage shed and began building it. And this, the truck they rented was like, you know, one where, like, it could, like, it had a bed, or like, I think it was like a box truck, right? Because the way they described it was like they built it, like the four of the truck.

They started like, pile in all the chemicals into 13 barrels and each weighed about 500 pounds. And they would mix it all together, like the mollum and nitro methane. And then the other four, I had like a mixture of fertile, of the mollum and some diesel fuel fuel like to fill up the rest of them. What they couldn't get with him with the Neymar methane. And then they tried to arrange the barrels though in like a J formation in the truck so that it would like blow against the building, you know, the over-the-parker like parallel or whatever,

to the side, you know, the side facing the buildingparker, like parallel or whatever, to the side, you know, the side facing the building. And like, so this is what I'm saying, like, they're like trying to minimize casualties, like, our Tinder box is only loading on the left side, so it's good to go. I guess they did, like, the way they packed the explosives and everything, like, they did direct the explosives. So it did work kind of as intended, but it's still a little bit of stuff. We'll get to that in a second. He put time-delayed fuses through the whole system. Two different fuses, right?

A five minute one, a two minute one. And then set them to the next toebacks, which would ignite everything, right? And then all told, though, this bound only cost him about $5,000, which would be like $10,000 in 2022 money. This this bound only cost them about five thousand dollars, which was it would be like ten thousand dollars in 2022 money. So yeah, that is not that much for a bob that I don't know what's worse I don't know what's worse that that that doubled in price or that it's only that price. You know what I mean That is crazy, too. Yeah, you're right Good point, yeah. Oh, that's good point, yeah.

So again, on April 19th, he drove the bomb truck toward Murrow Building, planning to detonate the bomb around 9am, and he had pages with them from the Turner Diaries, like you mentioned earlier, and it was a fictional book about white supremacists who started a revolution by blowing up the FBI headquarters with a truck bomb. So yeah, that's what the book was about I wonder where he got the idea to do this man, you know, I yeah, it's weird. Yeah, it's weird He also had a shirt that said six separate tyranis, which means thus always to tyrants. Yeah, that's it That's actually, you know It was what Brutus said as he was

stabbing Julius Caesar, you know, like, just, you know, this is what you're doing to tyrants because you stab them. Yeah. Um, so it's also said that John Wilkes Booth said that after shooting Lincoln. Um, I don't know, both are kind of legend, so, but whatever, take with it, what you will, he did have this time down. Like he really did. Cause 850, he gets into Oklahoma City. 857 security cameras near where he parked his good away car saw the truck the truck bomb pass. And at that time, he had a five minute timer, right? On a two minute timer. So at that time, there's probably right around when he was passing that camera, he clicked the five minute timer and then three minutes after that while he was like a block away from the federal building, he triggered

the second timer, the two minute one. So he's like a block away and he triggers the second timer and pulls up, pulls up right outside of it into this drop off zone right under the building's daycare center. They had a freaking daycare center there. Lactas truck meant to goff. And again, 902, 5 minutes after, he hit the first timer. It exploded. And 168 people were killed. Hundreds more were injured. A third of the building was destroyed. It blasted off almost the entire side of the North face of the building. Like if you look at pictures, it's like the the front of the building is gone. And it was because like it like exploded the first couple floors and shot them up, which you know broke the structure of the rest of the front of the building. Yeah, it's so cool. It's that rest of the clad. Yeah. And it left like a 30 foot or 9.1 meter wide and 8 foot or 2.4 meter deep crater on the street next on the street next to the building

All the way on the street This it also destroyed or damaged 324 other buildings within a four block radius of the day. That's ridiculous. So this S*** the idiot. Yes Exactly So this idiot is exactly it shattered glass and 258 other buildings, you know, up from that. Do you think he was surprised at like the blast? Probably. Probably because he probably didn't even because yeah, even if he had the same, you know,

size, which he did at a model one, right? Well, even vision. Yeah. Like he wouldn't even be able to notice what would be like in the desert compared to in a, you know, in a city, right? And like this broken glass though, like all these buildings breaking glass,

yeah, it accounted for 5% of the deaths, you know? Well, it said 5% of the deaths, I don't know, means outside of the building or altogether, but still, like, a load of the deaths and 69% of the injuries, you know outside of the Federal building 90 minutes later He's driving down the highway when it's 77 mark. He and he gets pulled over because he doesn't have a license plate Right and the cops the cops pull him over and they find a concealed weapon on them

So they arrest him for that right without no license, conceal weapon. Nothing about the bomb, right? Well, yeah, they had no clue. They had no clue that it would be. Exactly, exactly. So they started searching his vehicle and they find this business card and on the back of it says TNT, $5 a stick. So that, you know, we're like, hmm, what's this?

You know, they started looking into things. I mean, other than that, after the bomb, they found on the van of the truck, they were able to identify who rented it. Through that, it was him. They found out it was him that rented it. So, right there, they were just like, oh, it's him. Right? So, while he's in jail, for some other stuff. So, eventually, though, nickels was figured out because they tapped McVeigh's dad's phone and him and McVeigh, you know, he was talking to his dad and starting talking about Nichols and then the FGM, oh, okay, and then he-

It's close to Terry. Yeah, yeah, Terry, like, started running and he's like, you know what? He found out about me, he's like, I'm just turning myself in. So he turned himself in and like, you know, I'm gonna do a bunch of stuff. And I think that's probably why he didn't get so much, but he theoretically should be in prison for life, even if he just sat there and made every ounce of the plans with Timothy, and then Timothy executed him. Well, he probably gave up some information.

Yeah, cause I know like, you know, like Lori, yeah, Lori, for yeah, or whatever, she like flipped, or you know, like, Laurie, yeah, Laurie, uh, for me, or whatever, she, she like flipped, or you know, didn't flip. Whatever she is, all the more she knew it. Yeah, but like, she openly worked with the other guy. So like, she didn't get in any trouble, but like her husband did, because like, they're like, yeah, he got 12 years in prison for it, because, you know, he's like, yeah, he did it say, like, he knew they were gonna bomb this freaking building didn't tell anybody so like I understand that uh Nichols and McVeigh were sentenced

in 1997 and uh McVeigh got the death sentence and okay Nichols got like McVeigh though it was carried out by lethal injection on June 11th 2001 so yeah it was before September 11th. Only two months. Like, yeah, I wonder, like, I mean, morbidly, I wonder what you would have thought about 9-11. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

But yeah, man, it's crazy, man. It's just this crazy story. It's a good subject. I probably won't do too much true crime. And this wasn't too much true crime. I was trying to keep it history-wise, you know, keep it the true crime aspect out of it. But yeah You know, I I tried to keep it a little more lighthearted dunking on him in all but yeah Ultimately once we got to the point of impact. It's no longer a laughing matter

And we can't we can call him an idiot as much as we want But then he goes from idiotcy to infamy in that moment yeah you know I actually appreciate you covering this because like you know if you know somebody who's maybe leaning a little too much into the computer or something talk to him hang out with them go touch some grass together or something you know what I mean like yeah, because there is, you know, it's a scary time sometimes, but I think I can't be. Yeah, I agree. I think with that being said, man, we wish everybody well, we love you all. Thank you for joining us again here each in every week. Before we leave Frog, do you have anything special for us?

Nothing too exciting. Great job boys. Attitude era. Beautiful as always. I love, I just love we could still get lost in that conversation. We come back to us. I think we're going to return to it. And with that, you can find us on Facebook, Instagram, TikTok. Share this episode. Let us know what you like, what you love, what you want to hear more of, what you haven't heard of yet. We will see you here again next week. You can find us on Patreon for early access to these episodes by up to one week. With that, thank you for joining us here. I'm Kyle, for Brad and Frog.

We will see you again soon see ya Brainsoda