Brain Soda Podcast - Episode 52 - Dreaming Up Numbers

Episode Date: February 17, 2024

On this week's episode we're talking about the last game system made by Sega, the Dreamcast! We're also going way back to talk about the origin of numbers!

It's thinking Brain soda it's the brain soda podcast I as always am your host Kyle joined by my co-host and As always in your host Kyle, joined by my co-host and cohort, Brad. How's it going? Today, we're gonna be talking about the origin of numbers. But first, Brad. Yes. I want you to send a signal out,

but not like just a regular old like little beam of a signal. Like a spirit bomb on Dragon Ball Z. I want it to be like an ever-spanning signal, but with your mind while you're asleep. In like a positive manner of sleep though, not like a nightmare. Like aliens? Like a dream, right?

But like you're sending it out as like a wave, like a broadcast. Like Chromecast? What could we call that? Sleepingcast. Today we're gonna be talking about the Sega Dreamcast. Okay, I had its predecessor, the Sega Saturn, but I never got the Dreamcast because I think that's when I switched over to PlayStation afterwards. It's actually really funny you mentioned that because that system is like integral to this

story for the Dreamcast. And this was after the Genesis. Yes, significantly after, yes. Yes, well significantly or was it only like? Not a whole, but the better part of a decade I would say, right? Yeah. Roughly. Okay. So we're going to jump into this story at 1999, September 1999, to be exact. Now we're jumping in here but we're going to cycle back to about a year

and a little bit before that within the story. The reason why we're starting on September 9th, 1999 is it is the North American release date of the Sega Dreamcast. This is the first of all six generation consoles. This is the first console with a built in modem. This is the last console that Sega will make before shifting itself to software operations strictly. Just like next. Well, not just like next, but that is kind of what happened is that they looked at where their hardware had gotten them and Shifted accordingly. So we start there because this is really I would say one of two Points in time that the Dreamcast could have shifted It could have ended up being the PlayStation 2 which is what will end up you surfing this thing and I say Almost unarguably winning the sixth generation. Right. So the PlayStation one was already out then. Use is what you're saying. Yes. Yes. Okay. Actually, I guess, yeah, like the Saturn and

the PlayStation one were like the competitors for and the N64, right? Or. Well, yes. Yes. Now, let's just jump into it proper. Okay. So since we're going there. So in 1994, as a part of the fifth generation, Sega came out with the Saturn. Saturn is a disk-based video game system. It is 32-bit system, and it is considered a failure of Sega's. Now, in large part, I would say the reason why was I think Genesis had so much longevity added to it because of the modularness of it right like Sega

32 man I did like the Saturn they are Sega was already offering a 32-bit system that's all part of the reason why that thing failed it is a good system halfway through its life cycle because so many beating it. And the system isn't profitable at all. They were selling that console at a loss. They look at the Saturn and say our future is not with that system. And I think that's a right call. Right? Like honestly, is the Saturn objectively a bad system? Yeah. No. I liked it. Did it come out at the wrong time? Maybe.

What I did like, I think most of it was cheap games, because nobody had it. But that's kind of what I was going to say, too, is that I feel like Sega had kind of made its bed with the Genesis because they had Sega CD, 32X, Game Gear, all these different things that they were already doing. Exactly. They were kind of like an empire. You know, they spread themselves out too thin and they kind of f*****g themselves. Well, they were fighting the empire. I think,

like, they were starting to get ground on Nintendo, but by the time that Sega's dying as a hardware company, Nintendo arguably is coming in third place in the sixth generation of console war. Exactly. But it's making its best Super Smash game. It's making a successful system and it's about to make a system that rivals the one that wins sixth generation in the PS2 because the Wii is going to sell pretty comparable, right? Like those are two of the best selling consoles of all time, back to back. Yeah, exactly.

My point is, is that like you had the 64, like you were alluding to a moment ago and things like that. But, but Sony is really the one leading the market. They have like 47% market share. 64 has got 40 and that is where they make the call. This thing's pretty much dead. Now the thing is, is that they weren't having the best third-party support overall.

Number one, them having like a year or so when they're developing the Dreamcast and just leaving the Saturn out in the rain like a red-headed stepchild, it really hurt a lot of people who had devoted themselves in the middle of a die diehard console war to Sega to see them not producing games for console they just spent money on. Right, you're right. Because the Saturn was a cool system and I remember getting it for Christmas or whenever I got it, you know.

People who had that system and played it liked it. Exactly. It was a good system. Don't get me wrong. Technical specs at all. Especially the Saturn. It had discs, man. Like you got to remember at that point. it's one of the first disc based systems. You're absolutely right. You know, I'm a little kid and I'm like, what is this shiny CD? You know, there was I didn't even like CDs and music wasn't even big then. Like that was cassette. Right. Stuff like that. Yeah. You know, so like, you're absolutely

right. I feel like the call really doesn't come down to what the customer base was enjoying or what the technical aspects were to the Saturn because both of those. Exactly. Yeah. Realms it succeeds. It's the fact that it's unprofitable. About 96 or so is kind of when they make the call and start work on what initially is going

to become the dream guest. The way that this worked was there was one team in America named Blackbell and they were working with one GPU and going off of that and there was a Japanese team named Whitebell and they were working with a different GPU. This is kind of where the controversy in this machine really stirs up though, right? Initially, the head of Sega of America wants to go with this one chipset, and the head of Japan wants to go with another. Now, Sega, being a predominantly Japanese company,

having an affiliation with this chip maker, NEC in question, and deciding to go with those chips despite protest from the head of Sega America may cause some level of questionable decision making, right? Well, what about the fact that this decision causes a lawsuit? Not only does it cause a lawsuit, but when they're already having a problem with perception within the public and third party support from developers, EA looks at this decision and goes, we will never develop games for the Dreamcast.

Wow. Right. So they're already in a little bit of a pickle. A big pickle, for sure, because that's right when Madden and stuff started getting big. Madden and various other EA sports titles is part of what held Genesis up to compete with Nintendo. Absolutely. So now they're literally losing part of what held

up their backbone during their most successful period that they're like desperately trying to re-achieve. But they had kind of lucked out because they had just bought a different software development company that had been working on sports games. So from this unfortunate turn of events, we are birthed 2K games. Really? Absolutely. That's crazy.

We get a little closer into the actual development. And one of the things that's really cool about this is that the chipset that they end up going with, although it does cause those issues that we just mentioned and another one we're about to get to, they're so similar that Sega arcade cabinets, which mind you, even in the late 90s, arcades are still a thing. It's still very popular, especially in Japan, that it becomes a porthaven for the arcade cabinets that they already have worldwide. Right. But they end up integrating this into memory cards.

I think one of the things that really gets this thing into being another part of the sixth generation, it already is like the most another part of the sixth generation. It already is like the most forgotten part of the sixth generation, but the innovation, I think really comes in here when we start to get into what else is built into this thing. Specwise, because there's a built-in modem to this system and it's the first to ever do it. The first online system? That's crazy.

It's just crazy that like really things could have changed if like one different technology was embraced or something. I feel like that chip decision, had they just gone with Sega of America and EA still been developing titles for these guys because third party support will definitely become a problem for them. I feel like maybe we wouldn't give a about a PlayStation

five right now. We would want to Dreamcast three. They all have online after this point. And I would argue the second this thing comes out and sells $2 million in 24 hours in America. They knew they had to do it. Okay. That's it right there.

I think right there, they knew they had to top all this thing. And Sony's the first one who did it. And because it was the first one out of the gate, I think that's arguably part of the reason why it won. It already had the install base. Xbox. It'd be PlayStation if it came out day one, one for one, but it didn't.

And thus we have the universe we live in today. I don't know that it beats it, unless it comes out one for one and there's not 100 million people across the world or whatever it is that had a PlayStation by the time it exit. And that's the other thing is, are you really trying to buy Microsoft's day one console? Maybe. I sure as hell didn't it.

I didn't and I tested all three of them in a Toys R Us that summer. I know a lot of people that did though. Like a lot of people like that Xbox. I had one, I tested all three of them in a Toys R Us that summer. I know a lot of people that did. Right. Like a lot of people like that Xbox. I had one. I did have an Xbox and that's the only Microsoft one I've had. Just the original Xbox.

And like I had a ton of games for it. And like it's nice. Don't get me wrong. It's a good system. That's just, I've always been a PlayStation man. Sega on November 27th of 1998 launches the Dreamcast in Japan only. And I have to say this decision both saves this system, but it also I think is what will inevitably cause its downfall because they promise Sega Rally Car Championship 2 and Sonic Adventure are going to launch Godzilla Massive Impact,

Virtua Fighter 3 TB, this cool visual novel game July we got. It's going to be awesome guys. These are going to be our launch titles. Guess what two games didn't show up as launch titles? And Sega Rally Car 2. And like I'm sorry, at that point, your main platformer and your main racer aren't on your console at initial release That's hard. Yeah, it's like Mario not coming out. It didn't happen in America and Europe It happened only in Japan nine months later

They're expecting to have sold near a million units and they haven't. They launch in America back to the beginning of our story now, September 9 1999. Now by this point, the Dreamcast during that nine months had had some important arrivals in its games library. C-Man, a kind of quirky microphone peripheral game with this creepy fish creature, right? Very Japanese kind of game. But like, even looking at the games that that filled our adolescent years, and even our adult hold now, like quirky games have a room at the table, right? Yeah, man, like that like family games, like

that's like some of the best sell games. Right? Yeah. Right. Now, what about a really cool artistic fighter that's like got a lot of technical aspects to it and soul caliber? That's a very big. Yes. It's a very beloved game, right and I think those coming into that install base for the launch in America and again the 2k titles and things like that like September 9th 1999 and in 24 hours it sells over two million dollars worth of product over 225,000 units in 24 hours for a while it held the record of the most media sold in 24 hours. The dreamcast it. So what the f**k happened then?

The PlayStation 2. I'm absolutely serious, the PlayStation 2. Did the Dreamcast have memory cards? The most kick-f**king memory cards you've ever heard of in your f**king life. They're like a Tamagotchi. Meets a controller, meets like a little tablet thing. What?

Two buttons on it, a sleep mode and a mode button. Man, I do remember the Dreamcast button. A little screen and they could give you little prompts or little mini maps or little mini games. You could transfer saves by connecting them together. See, this is what I'm saying. So, cool. There's an alternate universe where Sega.

Yup. I wanna live in the Dreamcast six universe. Would, I'd say Sony and Dreamcast, man. Like. I'd like that. The two of those instead of Xbox. Second versus Sony. I think Nintendo would still live no matter what. Microsoft was like, we already got PC, but let's also have Xbox. You know what's really interesting about Windows though? When they were developing the operating system and deciding what drive was going to go into this thing, they decided to not have a DVD ROM. Yes, I remember that. when they were developing the operating system and deciding what drive was gonna go into this thing,

they decided to not have a DVD ROM. Yes, I remember that. What is one of the most appealing aspects as a PlayStation for a Christmas gift is the fact that it's a home console, right? It has a DVD player as well as a console. Seriously, that was a huge, again, a huge thing. That became a standard bearer as well.

Mind you, every single one of these consoles I feel in the sixth generation really kind of does add some sort of element to it that kind of has to go along going forward, right? Like you have to have kid appeal and integration in your games or Nintendo, let's eat some of your lunch. Like we were saying though,

this thing really does kind of lose itself in the fact that it's next direct competition, the competition couldn't beat with its sister system in the PlayStation one, right? Like the sider and couldn't be the PS one, Sega comes up with a dreamcast doesn't even really beat the PS one, because before it comes out in America, there are reports of Dreamcast users returning their Dreamcast and using those refunds to buy Sony products. This thing is not performing all that well.

It was initially released at 29,000 yen in Japan. That at the time, according to my research, translated into $205, I believe, this thing will get marked down to $135 equivalent USD, right? A number of months before it comes out here. This thing released for $199 because they couldn't keep losing to Sony. They didn't have the right brand appeal, right? They had already burned people with the Saturn and now you're coming out with this initial release game and you don't even have your Sonic game day one. You have six games day one and you don't even have all six of them.

They really did. Yeah. They dropped the ball. It's almost like, I mean, we go back to Yahoo a lot. I think, why are they not Sony then? Or why are they not? I feel like the reason why they are not is because this thing, because what happens, I feel, is that Sony already has the market share with having a PlayStation initially. Backwards compatibility isn't gone at this point and Sega's burned enough people that they just don't have the goodwill with the people. And even though there's all these amazing games, it's just not

enough to compete with everything that Sony's garnered during that time with the PlayStation, right? If they just stayed with the Saturn, how many good games would have been able to be played on the Saturn and have those experiences shared? But the, it sounded like the Dreamcast was a lot more advanced though. It was. I think it was. The controller, the online play, like, I mean, yes, the Saturn, if they would have stayed

with that, yes, it would have been nice, but like, the Dreamcast was like almost out of its time, it sounds like. I think it was because in production, it predates every console that's in its generation by like a year and a half minimum. And its most direct competitor is Sega and Nintendo had the long time war. And then Sony showed up out of nowhere and kind of cut the head off Nintendo to an extent. But then the war became Sega and Sony. And I think it happened so fast because Sega realized it was punching on its back foot and didn't have the faith to stay with the Saturn.

Thus the Saturn folded over, public perception of Sega folds over, and thus nobody's willing to stay there and put stock into Sega when they're coming out with these great games like. Yeah. Crazy Taxi, one and two. One and two?

Yeah, yep. Jet grind radio egg guilty gear X Episode one pod racer which I did like that. You're gonna check it out and you have a chance to check it out on this They have an exclusive WWF game on this system and WWF royal rumble pretty cool. Nice again, not an exclusive but ones that I think would be cool to check out on this system NFL Blitz 2000 ready to rumble. OK, right.

Lovelace. Shenmue. That's another one. Hydro Thunder games like Panzer Dragoon, Skies of Acadia, House of the Dead 2, Soul Calibur, Marvel vs. Capcom 2, the 2K games, Fantasy star online and MMO on a console. By the way, this thing had peripherals for mouses and keyboards to go along with that awesome internet connection and built-in modem. Yes, it did. Yes, sir. See, like, Powerstone one and two are like super smash brothers, but for Dreamcast, you know, exclusive development, right? And they're pretty cool games, apparently, and they fetched for a lot of money.

Blue Stinger is another cool game that came up with this thing. Sonic Adventure itself, I think, is a game people should check out. Just going off of that, like arcade cabinets, you could pull a save or something like that from House of the Dead and throw it into the arcade cabinet of House of the Dead. That's how cool these memory cards are. Microphone peripherals for controller parts. I don't know, man.

I may have to look at a whole thing and find one of these at a garage sale or something. Dude, I really feel like this thing ushers in a complete and utter generation of video games that like it'll never get credit for. This is Sega's last system, the first system to be built in with a modem in-box, right? And all of these other systems coming on after the fact from the PlayStation 2, the Xbox, and the GameCube will all be able to do it. I don't think they would have done it because they didn't want Sega to have an opportunity to gain market share on them. And I think gaming overall will never be the same because of this generation and literally

the last place in it is I think the one that affects it the most, right? I don't think Sony would have put everything into this system that they did normally had this thing not been the machine that it was because Technically it is an awesome machine and they marketed that a lot of it like in Japan this thing flops pretty hard They get a hold of a marketing firm here in America and they come up with this It's thinking ad campaign and at Hollywood videos before this thing released ad campaign. And at Hollywood videos before this thing released, you could rent the thing early and have like a week or whatever those rentals were with the console before it was released. Oh man, I remember that. But then it releases and it's non profitable. On September 9th, 1999, for $199, these things were purchasable. And by 2003, they are strictly a software company. And at this point, I almost feel like they're just waiting

for Nintendo to buy them. Yeah, essentially. I mean, yeah. It's like, that's the thing. Like Sega really could have been that third one. Like that's what it sounds like to me. Sega could have been any one of those three companies that's existing today.

I really do believe so. And we're going to talk more about these console wars because I think it's so interesting to bring up this point. But just a couple years before it, next time we see Sega, they're going to be in the middle of a giant behemoth battle. When we talk about Nintendo versus Sega. I just think it's crazy that like we're on this many deep of numbers of console generations and consoles themselves. Like PlayStation 5, the 11th console generation and that's crazy.

Yeah, like it's crazy to hear about the origins of them. And I hope like the origin of numbers will kind of interest you as well. Yeah, I think that'll be something that's really interesting to press start on. Phew. Yeah.

That. Actually, I had this as one of the first things. Again, I think I just said that recently. Yeah. And I did have this as one of them, because I just wanted to know, how do we start counting and stuff as humans? That's kind of weird to think about.

I mean, because it kind of developed independently in a lot of spots, you know? And we counted. Well, even hash marking and say, right, right. There had to be some kind of colloquial counting. Exactly. Yes, yes. So yeah, let's get into that then.

So we're not really sure when we began counting or when numbers were formed, you know, numbers really like they come later, but like counting has been around for around 40,000 years, you know, so like really before there was even like civilization, civilization, there was counting, right? They found evidence of like tally marks on things and that's right. That's the same with the hash. Exactly. Yeah. like tally marks on things and that's right that's a thing with the hash exactly yeah it could just be people writing like lines you know like

decorative or whatnot but there's certain things which we'll get into in a second some of the fine it's obvious they know what counting is you know but early humans though and like even some I was reading like there is certain like tribes and stuff and like isolated communities nowadays where they don't have numbers you know they they don't have numbers, you know, they don't have words for numbers except for like one, two and three. And then after that, they don't really, you know, they're just like, it's a group. It's a few, it's many. Exactly. Yeah, right. And yeah, like, so that's because like back, well, I'm not

saying these are basic humans at all. It's just different civilizations, but like, yeah. But just that one element of their society did not develop further than what it deemed by necessity. Yes, exactly. Yep. It's worth just fine for the best. And that's all it needed, right? Yep, exactly. And that's how it was at first, you know, because it was just like small groups of animals or people, you know. That's all we needed, right? Yeah, they didn't need, you know, to count up hundreds of thousands or even hundreds,

you know, tens. But but it was at first, you know, the way it started, a lot of the ways we think is with our fingers, right? Because that's easiest thing. Like we use our fingers early on and often, you know, like so a lot of different counting systems developed in 5, 10 or 20 base. I mean, when I say base, do you kind of understand what I mean by that or? Like the metric system in and of itself, base 10. Exactly. And those denote, you know, the differences between one sub-sect and another. Exactly. So like each. The same reason why it goes from ones to 10. Yeah, each like place, you know, is divided by like ten, right? There's ten units in each place. You know, there's ten different numbers you can use in this bass, ten, zero to nine. Whereas like in some of the

other ones, there was five, right? Zero to five, or which is kind of like a Romans kind of, it's a little different, but the Roman numerals are a little bit a base five But yeah, because every one of them. Yeah. Yeah, but there's like base 21 So there's a lot of base 60 ones because of the way it divides like 60 divides a bunch of different ways, right? Yeah, yeah, yeah, and the way like the Sun and all that But so the first evidence of written counting though, was like I said, tally marks. Like it could have been because of the shape of fingers.

Because if you think about it, you know, there's straight lines, but it's also like, I don't know. Like I kept reading that in multiple sources and I'm like, dude, is that just like because someone said that, like it makes sense or do they have evidence of that? Cause like it's a line, you know, it's just a line. Well, but the four hash marks would be four. And the five, that's the thing. Yeah, that's what it usually is. Exactly. There's usually four hash marks with like a five, a different five.

That's probably what it is. So, yes. Sorry, sorry. Archaeologists, who's speaking of which, like, they found, archeologists have found like different inscriptions and wood bones and stone that suggest that. But there's also different like scribbles and stuff in those things. So one early example, or likely early example, should I say, of counting is the LaBombo bone.

And that was made from a baboon tibia. La Bambou? Yeah the La Bambou Bone and this was found in the La Bambou Mountains. It's located between South Africa and Esquitini. So I don't I've never heard of Esquitini but Esquitini, let's see guys, everybody pull out your maps please. Unless you're driving. Yeah. It's a very small country that borders between South Africa and Mozambique and it's actually landlocked between the two, which a lot of countries are like that in Africa. That actually makes it like hard for them to prosper if you're landlocked by the way. Yeah, right because you're bordered everywhere. Exactly, there's no way for you to ship stuff.

But anyways, there's a mountain range in that area. And they found this bone and they radio carb dated it back to around 42,000 years ago. So this is like one of the earliest ones. And the bone had 29 notches in it, but it was broken on one end. So it could have had more, you know, like they were not sure if it was the piece or not. But those 29 notches though, that could mean like certain

things like a lunar phase, right? The lunar phase is 29 days. Right. Right. Okay. There's this book, the universal book of mathematics. And in it, it says that it quote, may have been used as a lunar phase counter in which case African women may have been the first mathematicians because keeping track of menstrual cycles requires a lunar calendar. Yeah for real. I don't know if they have like yeah that might be true. That's if that is true that's crazy you know that like they started tracking it because of that like. But realistically look at every example you've given in this subject so far. The human hand and the hash mark, the menstrual cycle and the lunar cycle needing to coalesce. The human existence is kind of what shapes time and reality, right?

So it really is the day and night and all that. Yeah. Because that's really what it is. Right. You have to learn to count to be able to track things. And thus, even if we don't have functioning numbers as we know them now, we have hands that we can allocate and designate numerical systems too. Yeah. Because like at the beginning, like it was more keeping track, not even of time,

because like the day, the time of day, they really didn't care about, you know, it's more like, it was more like, you know, yearly cycles more like yearly cycles or when animals came in or things like that. That was what time was. That was what was important at that time here. I mean, it's always been important, but the numbers were important then. As numbers and civilization progressed, soon it became, we need to keep track of our goods and our money and all that. That's when numbers really exploded and then building and then like our money and all that. And like, that's when numbers really exploded. And then like building and stuff like that, you know, that like more complex building, that's when like geometry and all that kind of exploded too as well.

Well, right. Yeah. And like, imagine once numbers are able to problem solve. Exactly. Exactly. Another archaeological find around that time was the Ishenko Bone that was found in the Democratic Republic of the Congo, so the Congo Forest. And that one dates back to around 25,000 years ago. So, you know, 20,000 years earlier, sorry, not 40,000 years ago, like I just mentioned, but... Right. But it was a bone tool that had a sharp piece of quartz on one end of it. So maybe it was a weapon or just like a ceremonial thing or something like that. But there was three rows of notches in it. And those three rows were, this is what I'm saying, like maybe that before, you know, that the Lobombo bone

that it had 29 notches. So like maybe it was just like decorative, you know, might not have been like an actual like counting, you know, it was separated. Like they were grouped a little bit. Right. They could have just been a decoration, right? This one though, this one had three rows and the first row had prime numbers between 10 and 20. So like, you know, markings of prime numbers between 10 and 20.

And then the second row had added and subtracted numbers from 10 and 20. So like 9, 19, 21, 11, right? And then the third row had like different amounts halved and doubled, but it wasn't consistent. So like these are different, like these are concepts of mathematics, right? Are these like cheat sheets? Are these like cheat sheet shorthand formulas? Not really. Like if you look at the picture, it's just like a, it's like a little club, essentially, you know, it was decorative, but it was just for someone to do that, you know, to even decorate it in that pattern, you would need to know how to count and know what numbers are, you know, know what prime numbers are, and know what, you know, how to add a subtract if you're

going, you know, one above and below, right? So like those different things, like that means at that time people understood mathematics. So to continue on now though, we're going to skip ahead to the earliest known record of like account keeping, right? Like I was just talking about like when they actually like when civilization started like moving, you know, and churning when people started changing goods and staying put. That was really the big thing is agriculture made people stay put. And then from there, you could gather resources. Before it was like being nomadic, you couldn't really gather resources.

Everything you had carried out your bag. It has to go. Everything must go with us. So the first one that, the first known evidence was like you mentioned in Mesopotamia around modern day Syria at a site called I'm going to butcher this, but sorry. Tell Abu Hurray. Yeah, I think that's how it's pronounced. But I mean, at least I know a tell because that's T. L. L. So that's an Abu Hurray.

That's where I'm a little hung up on. Right, no, I mean, to be honest, man, I never envy you. Whenever you say that, like, exactly. There's so many different crazy names. And I try my artist, but yeah, it's a lot easier to read them. With everything too, yeah, exactly. It's never easy. It is, even simple names sometimes can be kind of like.

Exactly, yeah. At this site though, we'll call it the Talibu site. There was a collection of clay tokens that represented different animals and units of numbers, right? So you had like, you know, five sheets, ten sheets, 60 sheets. There was a base 60 system. Okay. Okay. There was various sizes and shapes to differentiate them. But these tokens were placed in a hollow ball called a Bula and they were sealed. And then on the Bula, there was descriptions of the contents and the owner written on like the seal of it, right? So like it was

like a way to kind of keep track of how many sheep you had or whatever you needed to keep track of. It's like a safety deposit box almost, right? Like all my things are here in this coinage representation, right? Exactly. Or like, yeah, I mean, even like, maybe even like, to personally keep track of it too, in some cases, right? Because like, over time, you know, they started putting like impressions of the contents on the outside. So like, they would do like, you know, there'd be like a bunch of sheep tokens, they would put a sheep impression on the outside. And so it'd be easier, you know, like to identify what was in the boolah. And then eventually they're like, well, like, why don't we just like put the impression on like a slab of a tablet instead, instead of like, you

know, making this complex like hollow ball and putting these tokens in this, you know, like this right here is where like people released. Yeah Invented writing essentially right not just numbers, but writing. Yeah, cuz that's the first of ledger, right? Exactly like it's insane like that's kind of how it started was like Just like why are we doing this? Why do we have this weird casino game Larry? Pretty much. Well if it's got all the coins in it and that we yeah but we can know all that on a on a sheet you know that right Larry. Yeah like you're putting you're putting everything that's what's known in the the ball on the outside of the ball why don't we just

flatten the ball and you know what if you guys just want to get rid of the balls I'll just stay over here in the corner right I guess I f***, balls, right? Me. Yeah, exactly. So the Samarians likely developed complex arithmetic from all this. And it's not that they did a lot of the stuff in their head, too. That's the thing, Greek philosophers and things like that. I mean, this is way down the road.

But they did a lot of their speeches and stuff like that. I was all in their head. The things they have written down were by their students, or sometimes it was by them. But a lot of times it was by their students. You know, the human mind before there was our phones, you know, before we had to remember stuff. I mean, I'm not even saying our phones, like even before technology, you know, it's a crazy what you can remember in your mind, you know, or even do in your mind without even like, like without having

anything written out. But when you can write things down though, you can do a lot more, right? Because that's like a second mind. That is your photographic memory if you don't have one, right? Yeah, or getting, even almost getting into the mind of another person really, you know, if someone writes something down, you are, you know, it's crazy to think about. I think about that a lot. And that's why I wanted to do this, right? Because like numbers is one of those things, right? Like, how do we develop? I mean, but that's why writing is an art is that you

can convey something to invoke something within someone that's never even experienced it. Exactly. Exactly. So like I said, the Sumerians had this complex arithmetic down by now and they probably had like an abacus and all that, you know, like in counting boards and whatnot. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. And this development, this happened around like 4500 to 4000 BC. So, you know, 6500-ish years ago. This is when this took place. And so it took a while for us to develop, you know, 40,000 years to 6,000 years ago. Right? We're talking 34,000 years from the development of like counting to numbers. That is, yeah. Talk about beta testing, right? Yeah. It is crazy because like there's different styles and all that. And like this was one of

the first ones. And I'm not going to go into like all the different ones because so like I said this happened around like 6500 years ago and this type of writing was called proto cuneiform and It featured pictures of animals and tools and people and there was like lines With different angles to represent the numbers, right? Like they would like separate out the different pictures So if there was like 15 people, there'd be like, you know, two lines separating that or something like that. And then that like slowly developed towards like, we don't need to really write pictures because this cuneiform, this was like the first start of writing that we really saw. There was like hieroglyphs and stuff like that in Egypt at the time too. but it wasn't as developed as Qnea form at the time.

And that eventually happened around 2700 BCE. Again, I want to go into Egyptian history again too because they didn't touch too much on Egyptian hieroglyphs and stuff like that when I was reading because it's numbers, right? I don't think they really use numbers so much in hieroglyph lifts, which what I just shared for you is most are like modern numbers came from India. That's where modern like zero through nine come from. Right. Yeah. We'll talk about that in a second. Right now, Q-Day and Form, it uses wedge shaped stylus instead of like a circular shaped stylus, you know, instead of like a round stylus. Cause they would like press this little read

into the clay or whatever they're trying to, you know, to write on. Make the impression on there. And that would like, you know, leave different lines and stuff like that, right? It was actually like, if they had like letters, you know, letters and numbers, and like this wedge shape, that's what we're like separates the two, was the proto from the, you know, letters and numbers. And like this wedge shape, that's what really separates it to,

was the proto from the, you know, cuneiform. And again, this is a 60 base number system. And sometimes it's harder to interpret because like it kind of flops around and stuff like that a little bit, you know, like it's not like solid, you know, it was still being developed at the time. I mean, it wasn't, it wasn't like from region to region,

it was different, but the Romans will get into like this is where, you know, I found what was really interesting. And one of the pictures I wanted to show you was how the Roman. Oh, see exactly how those developed, right? So it's like you, you may know in the modern conventions, it's like the Super Bowl, the tattoos that people have and things like that. This is where that numbering system really comes into prevalence Yeah, the Roman numerals right the II IV right like that's so this is it's a well in the L's now and right Exactly. Yeah, exactly like when you get bigger you guys L and D and M and C and all that It's a base five though.

It's a base five or a biquinari system and it's not known exactly how they came up with this like with the various symbols but one theory is that it represents again fingers right? So if you look at one two three and four you got four fingers there's four lines and then the V shape is if you look at your thumb if you hold your thumb out, your fingers, your thumb kind of makes it a little a V and it's thought to have started where it wasn't, well it did start where it wasn't a V at first, it was just a slanted line. So your thumb is a slanted line and then like the cross on

the hash mark line right. So then eventually it turned into that V shape. And then from that 10 was two slanted lines. So like at the beginning it was that slanted line then they took two of those and then they just crossed them. So that's where your X is two slanted lines. Right. And then if you continue on 50 starts, it started as a V with a line through the center, right? And

then the V part eventually flattened out and are kind of curved. Okay, but flattened out essentially. And then the left side, they got rid of the left side to make it L shaped. If you kind of think about it. That's the picture that I'm showing. It's showing Kyle the hundred kind of like the 50 is an X with a line through it and then it led to them having two C's like neared on an I, then they got rid of the the mirrored C in the I like why are we writing all this crap? And just a C. Right. Yeah. So it's now

there's a C and I'm not going to give you the M, but like I think the M and the D are explained as well, right? In that picture? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, exactly. But one thing, all these different number systems that I've been talking about, that they don't have, that they're lacking, is zero. And zero is so freaking important. You have to have zero. And several civilizations like made an attempt at like having a better, you know, more complex, I guess, number system. But it wasn't with zero to wasn't to the seventh century though in India, not in Arabia. Right. Where yeah, where Indian mathematicians perfected a base 10 decimal number system, right. So like with that decimal, you can even have like less than a whole number. And that that's important, very important too, right. And through that, you can even have like less than a whole number. And that that's important, very important too.

Right. And through that, you can explain any number in the whole entire, you know, like, yeah, I have one. And now it's shattered. Yes. Well, now there's a bunch of two assemble one. Yes. Yeah. Boom. Now you can do complex mathematics with short notation. The Mayans though, I will say the Mayans did develop zero on their own. But this this Indian number system, and this is kind of the second picture that I showed you, this Indian number system was picked up by Arab merchants and scholars, you know, and then slowly it

made its way west. And then that symbol like changed its shape a little bit, kind of made it made it look more Arabic and whatnot. And then it's way into medieval Europe. And by the 10th century, that's when it really like kind of was like solidified. That's when the Roman numeral system was finally kind of, well, I guess they already have a few numbers other than the Roman numeral system. They're changing a little bit, but that's when really modern numbers came about. And yeah, from there, it's, you know, yeah, history, crazy, crazy.

Yeah, as we know it. Right? Yeah. No, I mean, and you know what, that is one of the things that I feel like even at the earliest aspects of this show, thankfully, we kind of got across is that through reaching out to your neighbors, through trade, through interest, through hobby, through even something as simple as bread. Things like this spread, information, technology.

Yes, it really does. It's all connected. We're so connected. When we choose to be, absolutely. And it's a beautiful thing when we choose to be. And we want to thank you for choosing us each and every week. You can find us on our social medias, Facebook, Instagram, TikTok, and on Patreon. We can get early access to these episodes by up to one whole week. Be sure to give us a review on your podcast platform choice. Not only does it help us find new listeners, but it also helps out the show overall and in general. For Brad, I'm Kyle and we will see you again here soon. Well, I'll see you later.

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