Brain Soda Podcast - Episode 53 - FISHOPORESU

Episode Date: February 24, 2024

On this week's episode we're discussing one of the fathers of modern day Japanese and American wrestling, Riki Dozan! And we're also talking about another father....of tetrapods, the Tiktaalik!

A fishapod? Ah! Brain soda. Ladies and gentlemen, welcome back to the Brain Soda Podcast. I, as always, am your host Kyle joined by my co-host and cohort Brad how's it going today we're gonna be talking about the tiktalic but first Brad yes Kyle have you ever wondered why like certain Japanese words sound just like the American word oh well not really because English is just a conglomeration of like 50 different languages. But yes, I mean... It's actually in large part in certain cases because of World War II.

Post World War II. Yes, yes. There's a certain influx of American GIs and stuff like, we're gonna play a game really fast, right? If I were to pronounce this Japanese word, do you think you could tell me in English what it is? I mean, I'll give it a shot. All right.

Porusu. Being porous. Porusu is professional wrestling, pro wrestling, right? Okay. And the father of Porusu is our subject today, Ricky Dozan. All right, Ricky Dozan. Oh, right, Riki Dozen. I've never heard of him before, but this sounds very interesting. Well, let's play another little game, okay?

Now, where do you think out of the litany of great areas in Japan, from Osaka, Nagasaki, Tokyo, right? Where do you think this Japanese legend of professional wrestling was born? Probably in some like little tiny island off of the mainland of it. How about Korea? Well, that's a peninsula. So in Korea, born in November of 1924, Kim Sin Rack grew later to be known to the world, but largely to audiences in Japan and professional wrestling audiences of the world as Ricky does it. Now how we come to get there

is a really interesting story. So the family in and of itself has a farm that his siblings and mother tend to and unfortunately, he was tasked with caring for his father right his his father had poor health so this guy participated in his youth in a sport in korea that i can't pronounce but i'm gonna give it a good old college try yep you gotta i know i do I've heard you a million times. So, Cicero. Okay. Cserium. S-S-I-R-E-U-M, right? And essentially, this is a very similar sport to Sumo. One of the biggest differences being there is a harness type cloth belt that's wrapped around the waist and thigh of the combatants and grapplers, right? I've seen this.

Okay. But they're in a seven meter ring, typically in a like sand kind of course, yet movable, grainy field, right? Essentially, right? Yep. And now he places third in this competition and he is approached by this guy Minse Momota and Momota is in Korea with his son-in-law who's trying to be a policeman there But he sees you know the performance that this guy lays out and he had already

Kind of recruited a number of other Koreans to come and join a stable for sumo in Japan So is it let's he like a big guy? I'm trying to like just put, make picture of this guy in my head. Cause like sumo. So his build height and weight, I'm going to give you kilograms and meters first because he obviously was introduced via the metric system, right?

Sure. So he is at a build height of 1.75 meters, that is five foot nine, and a build weight of 110 kilograms kilograms and that's 243 pounds. I mean, that is pretty big for 5 foot 9 person. But can we take a second and appreciate that you just gave metric and imperial units because I mean, I know it takes up time for me to do that every episode, but it's important. We have have international listeners that that's what they know that is very true and we appreciate them as well but i will say that's another one of the things

that kind of lends into why we talk about professional wrestling is for me as a human so it is highly anecdotal but that is probably one of the first places i ever heard of it when a japanese wrestler graces our shores and comes to perform here, professional wrestling fans want and companies do introduce them to the ring under their height and weight in metric. Really? Not always, yeah. That's kind of funny.

They're just like, yeah, that's what they always say. We ain't going to sit there and do the conversion. I mean, I know it's probably not what it is, but. Some do. Some do at times because to be fair, like in any place, professional wrestling is supposed to be presented as a sport. So I don't want to say all, but generally as like a courtesy and a... Yeah, they do it to like stick to tradition or whatever.

Yeah, essentially. And like in respect to competitive nature of a combatant, air quotes, someone from another country coming to perform in your company. You know what I mean? I know if I were a promoter I'd do that and I would say typically I see promotions doing that. Yes. Moving on. He goes and joins this stable which there are so many pronunciations of Japanese things and sumo things that are just not too important to our story right now. I would like to come back to sumo overall because it was really interesting the way that the rankings and things like that iron out. I would love that. Yeah. I definitely think we will. But for now, we're not going to and you will see why later because this is more of a primer for something

else. Now going forward, he is, you know a primer for something else. Now, going forward, he is recruited into the stable, but the thing is, is he can't really begin training. He can't even go to Japan because of his family obligations. His father's not passed. He's ill, but he has not shift loose the mortal coil. And then even after his passing though, his mother kind of forbade him.

And even a year after that, he's kind of like, yeah, I'm going though. So we get to June of 1940 and he makes his debut. In his initial rankings and introduction into the sumo scene, his Korean heritage is known. And he faces discrimination and essentially like bullying and harassment. Or racism? Well, out and out racism, right? But I'm just saying like in the simple sporting aspect of like, we're letting him compete.

We're not out and out races to that extent. Okay. So like it wasn't like out, out like, you know, like you Korean and stuff like that. But okay. But everybody in that ring, when they were across from a Korean would feel dishonored if they lost and probably took liberties with him as they fought, right? And that's definitely a part of the story.

And it even got so bad though that this guy was adopted by Momota and took the name Mitsuhiro Momota. Okay. by Momota and took the name Mitsuhiro Momota. Once he takes that name, he is later given a ring name because of his merits within Sumo, and it becomes Rikidozan Mitsuhiro. Even despite these problems that this guy had had, it takes a little bit of time, but he does become a pretty important player

within the world of Sumo. As an example, he reached the top of a division in 46 and was the runner up to a legendary Sumo named Hagarama. He lost to this Japanese legend in the tournament of 47, losing in a playoff for the championship. So essentially this guy got to the wire with a guy who was the Yokozuna like the grand champion highest of ranks as far as I was able to ascertain for like three years. And he fought in 23 tournaments in total and has a win-loss record of 135 to 83. But even with given that his highest rank he wasn't nice to. Highest what was it?

Second, okay. Okay. I'm. Highest, what was it? Second, okay. Okay. I'm gonna say that's what it is, but I very well may be wrong. So even though he has like a pretty impressive win-loss record and like there's merit in his skill and what he's doing out there in the ring

on any given night, he wants full-on support. Now, mind you, like he's essentially gained notoriety, housing and things like this and that training from his accomplishments in Korea in that separate. And this is all in this is all in Sumo still. Yes. Okay. And and mind you, I think one of the important things that kind of will shift in the background. Who knows if we'll bring it up later, but like sponsorship of combat athletes in Japan is something that's still prevalent today. In particular, when we talk later, Gaijin, right? Foreigners who come to Japan to wrestle, often have very many expenses or luxuries provided to them by either investors within that promotion or just affluent wrestling fans.

And it's something that's been well documented and like, I think it's really cool, right? Like- It is kinda cool, yeah. So that's one thing that we'll notice here, but with these guys, he's talking about not full-on sponsorship, but more adequate sponsorship that he feels represented to his merits within Sumo, right? What the specifics of that I don't know are, but the dispute got so far that essentially,

he was publicly, it was said that he was forced into retirement due to a medical condition, essentially. Oh, okay, okay. Right. But realistically what it is is this dispute didn't go his way. And rightfully so, he kind of disavowed Sumo, but so much so that he even cut his top knot off, which like knowing the honor society kind of aspect of Japan, especially within things like sumo and things like that. Well, yeah, like the samurai's with their like seppuku and all that, you know, like they are whatever that's called.

I don't think it's called. Bushido. Yeah, we're like they would like, you know, kill themselves or something they lost. It's so like seppuku. Yeah, you know, I mean, you're right. Yes, that is a thing like that even pre You know swine flu and things like that like flu season in Japan looked like COVID in markets in America Yes, exactly. They make it a point to not get each other sick amazingly in a society Imagine that but anyway, so the point being is that like he obviously is done at this point now

There's about a year time where things start to get a little dicey He is in all of my research known to be a construction worker and a black marketer and So wait, okay, because he does he not get a lot of money from this like being like the top dog Well, he wasn't he wasn't the top dog. He lost to the top dog in the finals. True, true. Okay. Yes. Yes. But what, well, you got to be like, you know, top contender then.

He is an elite athlete in sumo. And that's why he would have came up and said, Yes, and true. Hey, I feel like I deserve more. I'm, you know, X amount of winning. I've performed in this many tournaments. I'm pretty successful in all of them. I went toe to toe with the champ and lost at the very end.

You know what I mean? Exactly. I would understand him feeling very like, Hey, why do I not have support like this guy or that guy who I could beat? But with this, he has like a kind of dark era, right? And like, there's a notable time where he possibly got ties to the underground. Obviously, as a black marketer, you would have ties to the underground, but he had a guy named Nita who helped him get the construction work. And I think that's kind of what helped him be legitimate. And just even this Nita's story is super interesting because he helped run a prisoner of war camp,

but he would smuggle cigarettes and food to American GIs. And then later when those guys were, you know, doing construction and all these kind of reconstructive efforts within Japan, they were going through his construction companies and favoring his business. Wow. Okay. So, right. So, I feel like that may be where Dozan kind of gets a little bit of his startup money and things like that.

Reconstruction era in Japan, I think is really interesting. Yeah. One of the things I was kind of getting in our intro is that like, there are certain things that come around in this time that if not previously named, have like near English with American dialect, phonetic pronunciation, but Japanese cadence, speed and rhythm, because they are learned from American GIs, engineers, businessmen, you know what I mean? Like, Oh yeah, man.

There's cross culture. Like out the wazoo at this time. Yeah. The love of baseball. Americans today don't even like baseball like they did. Oh, I know. Yeah. I don't know. Say the air of World War two.

You know what I mean? Like absolutely. Yeah. So with that being said though, by 51 he's gained his citizenship and used his clout as a celebrity and old GIs and things like that. People had been wrestlers previously

and gotten in the ring with these guys and started performing. Now, there had been endeavors to make Japanese wrestling a thing and happen for years, years and years. And by this point, some of the most highly paid athletes in America are professional wrestlers, right? Some of the most well-known athletes in America at this time are professional wrestlers.

Luthreal. Really? Absolutely. Yeah. Buddy Rogers. This guy now has kind of quartered the market in a way that is going to sound super like passe almost now. This is 1951 and this guy's only a little bit off of a really successful sumo career, right? And the big angle going into Ricky Dozan as a character portrayed within any given matches,

here's the big American invader and Ricky Dozan, who nobody really is knowing or acknowledging as Korean because it got to be so bad. Everything that this guy was facing, that they made up a story that he was actually born in Nagasaki. Like, no, no, no, he was actually born in Nagasaki. Like, he, like, like, no, no, no, he's, yeah, he's just from out of town.

You know what I mean? Like, they had to do that for this guy. So it was like early kayfabe or whatever, yeah. Kind of, but it's essentially not kayfabe because it's not in the sport. It's a lie to shield this man from racing. Oh, it's in sumo. Wow, yeah.

See, this is what I'm talking about. Dozen becomes like a celebrity within Japan. And within the next two years after his big start with a professional wrestling, he's made excursions to America and had wrestling matches on television and eventually starts the JWA, the Japanese Wrestling Alliance. And aside from himself, there are two big notable stars that come from the JWA. They are Giant Baba and they are Antonio Onoki.

Yokozuna is actually the name of like the highest rank in Sumo. Oh, really? OK. Yeah. And Rikishi is the name of a performer or a combatant within Sumo as well. Very interesting. Man, we're definitely going to need to cover Sumo because like that's yeah. Okay. After that, these two guys while pride merely known at this point as a tag team will later become rivals within the ring, but the real rivalry and the real reason why I feel like this man had a film made about him in 2004. I was going to ask that. We're talking about him today. And I mean, just the fact that this guy is a legend, he's got kind of a short career. We're

going to get that at the end, but it's because of these two. These two men, Thaba and Enoki, will both respectively go on to form the biggest companies in Japan for professional wrestling and arguably rank amongst the biggest companies in the world for professional wrestling, not just across most of the 70s and 80s, even the 90s, but up until pretty much exactly the turn of the millennium. Really? Wow. That's crazy.

And for two separate reasons. But with that being said, this man has a very important career. He even beat Luthers and was the NWA international champion for a number of years. But by 1963, he gets into an argument at a nightclub. And the man was like kind of a known ladies man. He had invested in several businesses. Like we said before, he had kind of had some possible, you know, backdoor deals back in the day. But he runs into a Yakuza member, right? And they start to have like this kind of verbal back and forth drunkenly.

And it turns into a fight. And you know how it happens when you work yourself into a shoot. Sometimes things get a little out of hand. But that Yakuza member decided to get out of hand too and stab Ricky Dozan. Wow. And while apologetic and apparently reprimanded within his group, Dozan actually survived

the stabbing initially, but succumbed to his wounds day later after drinking and not really following doctors or this. Really? Unfortunately. But yeah, like I said, there's a 2004 film based on this guy. Interesting though. Yeah. So honestly, man, this guy births professional wrestling in Japan. I think it's a super interesting story.

And if you never check out this guy's matches against Thes and the greats of his time, if you don't check out the film, I really do suggest at the very least you check out what is birth from this guy's life's work essentially, right? Because it's 63 when he dies. He started wrestling in 51 and starts his own company by 53, right? Like it's a short period of time. It is 10 years, but right. Like, so I mean, he has a 10 years, but, but it's not that long. Like it's not a whole career though. You're right. No, especially when you look at some professional wrestlers. Yeah. I mean, if you say 51, no, he would have been like it is 20 said, right? He said 27 he was born.

24. Okay. So yeah. So yeah, I mean he died pretty young then. Like in his 40s. He was 39. Yeah, that's crazy. And like in like Japan, you know, wrestling is huge in Japan now. So like for him to be kind of like the start of that. Yeah. And it makes sense that it comes from sumo wrestling because like it is sumo wrestling,

you know, I think like the tech talk, you could probably trace Dozan to inspiring professional wrestlers of all continents. Exactly. And, you know, all times post 80, whatever. Right. You can say he was like the fish a pod of. Yeah, he was the fish a pod. The fish a pod of por-pod of wrestling. Yeah, he was the fish-a-pod.

The fish-a-pod of Parisu, absolutely, yeah. The fish-a-pod of Parisu. Well, yeah, the fish-a-pod of Parisu, yeah. So Tiktalic or Tiktalic-Rosier is, it's from the Inak-Tik-Tut, or Inuit, I think, is that, I think that's what their language is, is Inak-Tik-Tut. Oh man, Kyle, both this episode, but I think that's what their language is, is in Nukitut. Oh man, Kyle, both this episode we're gonna have some hard words.

But it's the Inuit word, meaning large freshwater fish, and this is a 375 million year old fishopod, as I've been saying that is really important It's a it's a very important transitional species from from a water-living fish to a land dwelling tetrapod, right? So oh my god, this is the fish frog babies that mr. Garrison was talking about When he when he makes fun of evolution and like early, early. It could be. Well, because I mean, okay, yes. It's the one you always see, when you see the transitions.

I always think of the family guy one. The family guy one's kind of good. I know, what's that word like you're freaking like, what's like training montage? Montage sequence? Is it, is this what it's called? Yeah, yeah. When you see essentially a training montage.

The earth evolving. You always see this fish probably, it's never the right fish though, because it doesn't look like what they always show. But you always see this fish on itself up out of the water, right? This was one of those fish, right? Or maybe the earliest one we know of.

And like I said, it was 375 million years ago. And do you remember what period or era or era that was, Kyle? Could you tell me any of those three? Son of a f***. All right, hold on. How many shots do I get? You only get one shot. Do not miss your chance. No, you guys. Hold on. You guys three times, I guess. Well, you can guess one for each, right? The period, era, and the eon, right? It was 375 million years ago. Mesozoic. No. Not even close. Sort of close. That's the era. I think that's, yeah, that's an era. That was the dinosaurs, right? I think that's after that. That's the era. I think that's, yeah, that's an era. That was the dinosaurs, right? I think that's after that. That's Jurassic then, right? Or it's before, obviously, before the dinosaurs, because this is when... Does that mean it's Jurassic then?

All four-lingid. It's the Devonian period, right after the Cambrian explosion, right? The Devonian period. Okay. During the Paleozoic era and the Phanerozoic era. Right? So the Phanerozoic, remember, was like when pretty much when like most life was around. Right. And the Paleozoic was kind of like when things first started like really evolving. Or exactly, yep. And then, yeah, the Devonian period where they like land kind of was conquered in a way. Yeah. But so yes. But you were close though, man. Yeah, you were though. You were pretty close. But so this Tiktalic though, this was about a four to nine foot long or 1.25 to 2.75 meter long fish, right? So like it's pretty big fish. If you kind of think about it, this is like, this is a big guy. Right. Yeah. And about it, this is like, this is a big guy.

Right, yeah. And it had scales and gills, just like a fish, but it also had a triangular shaped head that was flattened and kind of uniquely shaped fins that look like they're more for bearing the fish's weight more so than for like propelling it through water, right? The gar, if you know what a gar is, they're one of like, it's like this

big, like kind of scary looking fish almost. It's not a eel, it's just like a long like fish with a weird looking shaped head, which this does. It almost has like an alligator looking head, a triangular shaped head, right? So it's not like a oval shaped like most fish, right? So the first fossil of this though, and really why I wanted to cover this, was found in 2004 on the Arctic island of Ellesmere, Ellesmere Island in none of it Canada. So this was like, you know, like way up in the Arctic, but I guess they were like searching up there because when they was living, it was not an Arctic area. You know, it was more of a temperate zone. But the three researchers that found it were Edward Daishler,

Neil Shubin, and Farish Jenkins, Jr. And I know Neil Shubin because he did a... That name does sound familiar. He had a book and a PBS documentary called Your Inner Fish, which is all about this discovery. And really why I really wanted to do this, because like it check it out for sure. But yeah, well, I do want to say going off of that once I googled this animal and saw the images blurb right for those results. I know this immediate textbook picture on the upper right corner. My search result so well.

Like I really do think this is one of the things just like you said that was like probably used to explain evolution in a biology book. It really was. It was like that missing link. I hate to say that, but it's that missing link, you know? And like, again, this was found in 2004. Not that there wasn't already things like different theories that were pretty much like it was solved by this point.

But like this was like definite proof of what people theorize. You know, it's that confirmation that we looked for, right? So they published their work though in 2006. So it always takes a little bit of time, right? In April of 2006, they published in the April issue of Nature. And it picked up attention almost immediately Like once they you know once they publish this like wait, you know There's this fish that kind of shows the transition from fish to four-legged creature

Yeah, right so Jennifer Clark she was a professor at Cambridge University and an expert at tetrapod evolution said quote It's one of those things you point to and say I told you this would exist and there it is just like Ricky from trailer park boys said a toad or so no but she did not say a toad or so but I just love that show if you haven't seen that, watch that too. Anyways. Yeah, that's pretty good. So this team though, they found three different specimens actually. One dated from 375 million years ago, and that one was the best preserved.

And the one you probably see if you look up pictures of the fossils. But one from 379 and one from 183 million years ago too. So like actually over millions of years, they found these specimens in the same area, which is kind of cool if you think about it, but maybe that happens a lot. I don't know, I'm not archeologist. I would kind of think so if they were,

you're saying they were all in the same area roughly. Yeah, I don't know exactly the same, but in their expedition, that's what they found, three of those. That's kind of what I would think, right? Exactly, is that like if, Oh yeah, but if they're schooling together, would think. Right. Exactly. Is that like if well, oh, yeah. But if they're schooling together, maybe not.

Right. Yeah. That's true. If they're independent, well, this is the thing. Yeah. Because well, at this time, right, the island was actually part of a continent called Laurentia. Oh, OK. And it consisted of like the eastern North America and Greenland, right? But right. Right. Yeah. So at this time, it was like in a tropical area. It was it was actually right over.

OK. Laurentia was centered around the equator at this time. So it was kind of the opposite of where it was at the time. It's climate is actually tropical, even though where geographically you would kind of allocate that. Yeah. But, you know, it was still up in this, you know, Arctic area Arctic area and because of that there was Inuit elders that actually like live there you know so it was their land. Right. Because it was their land they went with an Inuit name like I said at the beginning that's why they had that tiktolic name. Right and like we said earlier the courtesy of trying to kind of

acknowledge. Yeah exactly that as an equal. Yeah. Well, like the elders picked the name for it, like the Inuit elders, which I think is really cool. Right. As they should, right? I mean, theoretically, right? So as research continued on these fossils, it was found that it actually shared a lot

of the structures similar to tetrapods, but it was still solidly official. That's the thing. Like this is the, I hate to say it again. I hate to say it, I hate to say it, but that missing link. You know, there is no missing link because it's all like, it's a spectrum, right? It doesn't like, there's no like, oh, this is the transition one, right?

There's six missing links. Exactly, there's 6,000 missing links, you know? That's true, that is true. The 6 million, like it can get so granular, like, oh, where's the missing link between this one and this one? That slight mutation becomes this slider mutation. Exactly, yes, but this one though,

like it really showed those characteristics. This one though, actually showed how it could actually support itself on the solid ground and breathe air, which was unusual for fish, obviously at the time there were, you know, our fish even now, there's actually, there's this one species of fish that I didn't write down. I think it's called the lung fish where they thought it was extinct. Like they thought it was like an ancient fish, right? Like from, maybe not around this time, but you know, millions of years ago extinct and they

just found it recently. And it's kind of like this where it like can breathe air and water. Yeah. But this Tectolic, like I said, had a flattened skull and it was kind of arrow shaped, think about it like a kind of like a crocodile. It does. Yeah. It very much has that angular, much has that angular, snout maw kind of alligator crocodile type skull. And I think it did have teeth. They didn't talk about the teeth much on it, except for like briefly, but it did have teeth, which is like so you know, I mean, it's more like a fish with teeth versus like an alligator because alligators. Well, I guess our ancestors of these, like this is before

there was four legged creatures on the ground, right? You got like, that's what blows my mind. Like there's, this is before there was things crawling around. Well there's insects and plants, but tetrapods though. Yes. Think about when you're a little kid on the beach and you can't really swim yet, but you're kind of doggy paddling, but you can only stay in the shallow end and you want all that water and you lay on your belly and you kind of, you know what I mean? Like evolving from the

fins that you kind of scrape through. Yeah, or like a seal. I mean a seal like back, like reverse evolved back into like, yeah, but like think of it like that, you know, or like even a fish out of water almost, you know? Like they have those side fins, right? They're front fins, they're trying to like push away. That's what they had. They also had these odd notches on the top of their head and they were like primitive openings that probably allowed it to breathe air. You know, it wasn't nostrils, but like they had these openings because you need some type of opening, right? To breathe air and that was likely what allowed them to breathe air instead of water, you know, because their gills, that's how fish breathe, right?

They're gills, typically. So like the gills, though, right? It didn't have any bony plates in the area where the gills were, right? And that's a typical thing in fish is to have like these plates that allow them to open it, you know, give it structure. And because of that, right, it allowed the tectonic to move its head left and right. It gave it a neck. And that was something that wasn't evolved yet.

It was like the first sign of a neck and even its pectoral or shoulder girdle, right? It's like shoulder blades were separated from the skull. And that's again, a new evolution. Different trait, right? But the big thing really was its fins and the way its fins were very different from other fish of that time where it showed that it had those weight-bearing limbs and the bone structure, the bone structure of the fins are super important at this time and even, I mean, it's still debated now but it's pretty well

agreed upon how hands evolved, like, you know, how arms and hands evolved, like how digits evolved. And you kind of see from Tectalic, you know, the humerus bone and the ulna and the radius and the wrist bones and the digits, the radial bones and all that. And like you can see it start to form from that. And that's one thing all tetrapods kind of share together. Well, right. And even even when you just look at that internal structure that lends itself to like the wingspan of your hand, if you were to stretch out your index finger and kind of tilt from your middle down to your pinky at an angle, like that would be like a wing. Exactly.

Yeah. Yeah. Like it makes sense for these things. Or like a fin more, more so than a wing. Exactly, yeah. Yeah, like it makes sense for these things. Or like a fin more so than a wing, but yeah. In this example, absolutely. But I think even in a wingspan, when you look at that webbing, it would fit. You know what I mean?

Like we all have those interconnected. Exactly. Especially in bats, right? Or birds. I would say that's the most. More so birds, yeah. Yeah, birds, yeah, birds, definitely, most. More so birds. Really? Yeah. Birds, definitely.

This fishapod, because it wasn't a tetrapod and it wasn't a fish, it was a fishapod. Exactly. Yeah. This also, it had this strong internal skeleton surrounded by these bony fin rays, which like their hands essentially, called lipidotrachea, which is common in fish. So it's kind of like, it's like this bony material. It's not bones, but it's like a cartilaginous, you know? Yeah, exactly. Yeah. It's a bone-based fin, you know, strong. It gives that rigid structure, right? But it had a lot of it in that area, in its fins,

and it had like a thick front edge and upper side of the fin. And that clearly showed that it was evolved to support the fish. And there was a room, because of that, there was room for more muscle and skin to attach on the underside of the fin. So it kind of gave it like that padding and that support and that strength to move it, right? If you kind of imagine it, like think of it like a beefier bones

on that front edge of the fins that so you like pull itself like a baby would or you know, or a fish on a waterway. Like I was saying, think about a little kid in the water just kind of like dragging himself along like using a little bit of inertia with his body and a little bit of the movement of the flow of the waves. Like I can totally see the even precursors to this just being like, they would be skimmers, right? They're just laying on the surface of the edge of the crust of the wave.

Yeah, or like, I mean... Catching whenever it comes to the surface of the land, that maybe that's what these guys kind of fed on it ecologically. I don't know. Like, you know, riverbeds or something like shallow riverbeds. Yeah, that's true. You know, they had that strong shoulder blade where it could like anchor itself against fast current. Right, right. That makes sense. And a big maw, you know, it makes total sense. Maybe it was like swampy water too though because I mean.

Yeah, anything. I don't know. We don't know. It does kind of seem like it could be a very bad creditor for a lack of a better term too. Exactly. Fin though man, you could really see, like I said, the skeletal shape of it. And like if you go and you look this up, you'll see like pictures of or even look up like the development of the arm. It's really cool to see because like it traces on all traces back, you know, all these different tetrapods have the same basic, you know, where you have like that big, thick humorous bone. Then you have those two, the radius and ulna. Then you have your wrist bones. Then you have your digits, you know, your radial bones. And it's really cool to see that. And this one like, you know,

supports it again, I'm not going to get into detail how it supports it exactly, but it's it is very fish like, but it also is tetrapod like, and it shows like how it involves more complex limbs. It was long debated though, like I was saying earlier, how this arm evolved. And one theory was that evolved from the finger bones developed separately from the fin radials that made it like fish like, right? So like they thought that it was like almost a new bones, almost exactly, you know, kind of developing out of the blue. It does, that does happen.

I'm not saying it never has happened, but like it's not really a way that it happens. And then there was another theory before Tiktok was discovered, right? This is before they found that like fish to tetrapod transition, right? So they thought that like the radials in a fish fin, which is mostly cartilage, right? It kind of evolved into bone, you know, evolved into our fingers, like those radials. Like the skin like broke, kind of like webbed feet, like think of the skin between them.

Like I was saying, right, yeah. But the third hypothesis though, was from these like post-axial, which the axial bones are your wrist, right? Like the axis, these post-axial radial bones, which, and a lot of species are just like a cluster of a bunch of different tiny bones, which ours are too, you know, if you think about it.

Right, yeah. That those evolved into our fingers. And this was kind of like solid proof that it did from tectology. I'm looking at this transitional fossils thing. And even just seeing what this thing brings in against other ancestors similar to the time. Yes.

It really does show like how dynamic of an animal this thing is. It really is. You know what I mean? Yeah, because like, I mean, all the different parts of it really like show. And unfortunately, they only had like the front half of it. They didn't get the back fins, most of it, and the tail get the back fins most of it and the tail because like the pelvis of it even they did have the pelvis. It

was much larger than other fish. It was more similar to tetrapods and the shape was still similar to fish. It was like one bone but the size wasn't. It was a big large bone but unlike the three pelvic bones of tetrapods. And it's kind of like a flattened like wishbone almost? Yes, in a way, yeah, yeah. And it's pelvic fins, or at least what they saw of it, and this discovery too, happened to be the most complete discovery of it. It's pelvic fins are analogous

to the hind limbs of tetrapods, right? We're almost as long as his forelimbs, which is kind of similar to tetrapods more so than fish, right? Usually their fish hind limbs are kind of like more for like steering and stuff. They're not for propulsion and Again, they don't have full specimen of its tail and all that which I wish they did because they'd really probably be able to find even more You know similarities, right? Yeah, that's very true Especially again looking at that you can kind of see elements of it that make it look more designed for practical use or something like that.

It's got a bit of fanning to its edge, but not as much as something is similar to it and it looks less static and snake like as well. Exactly. Like it has that brushing. More chunky. Right. Yeah. But like that could be a defense tool.

That could be a tool. There could be so many different things that you could do with that, possibly that. Unfortunately, you don't have the full specimen to know. And again, it looked a lot like gars, like moderate gars, which I've seen a lot of different episodes of this River Monsters. I've seen a little bit.

Yeah, it's pretty cool. That's a crazy show. The guy stopped the show because he did it all. Yeah, he's like, I've fished all the monsters. I've seen a little bit. Yeah, it's pretty cool. That's a crazy show The guy stopped the show because he he because he did it. Yeah He's like I fished all the monsters like I found them all and like it's crazy that he found I think they told him that Yeah, yeah, it's crazy that he found him too because like these are fish that like are not easy to catch like it's yeah, right but Dars were one of them these things they had similar to tiktolic. They had diamond shaped scale patterns.

They had teeth structured in two rows. They had two like sharks. Right. They had internal and external nostrils. So, you know, like I was saying those attic nerves. Right. It had a tubular stream in my body. And no anterior dorsal fin.

So like I was saying earlier, like that was one thing that is similar to tetrapods Like well or was lost was that like dorsal fin that top fin on their back, right? Right. And gars as well though have this broad flat skull. So like look up gars and I am looking at some right now Yeah, one of the things that is it pike that this reminds me of right Right? Like another kind of- Pike are similar to gars. Yep. There's not very many toothed fish anymore, you know? That is true. That is true. I mean, I think of like deep down there are though too,

like angler fish and shit. One the ocean. Yeah. Yeah, for sure. And I think this was probably like, I don't know if it was a freshwater fish, but yeah. But even beyond that, I'm just saying this is like those dartfish, right? Like he's kind of aquodynamically designed, I guess, right? He's aquodynamically designed.

Yeah, for like shallows and stuff like that. And cutting right through. And he's got this small little dart body, right? Like it really does seem these things could be some dangerous fish. They probably were. They probably were at the time, for sure. Yeah. They're just crazy, man.

Yeah. And like, but just the wealth of information from this one species is crazy. It's just a really cool species, man. I really feel like it's one of those things that especially looking at a river monsters, right? Like this births so much stuff that it not only while it may be dangerous, almost all of those animals have these very specialized or exotic features to them.

They really do. Yeah, they feel that specific niche of whatever they're occupying it all. It's, yeah, I mean, I just love the different variations that you can see on the earth. It is, it's amazing. And with that, we hope you found this episode to be amazing. You can find us on our social medias, Facebook, Instagram, TikTok, and now YouTube, you can also find us on Patreon. And I will say, yes, we are on YouTube now,

not live video. What, you know, if there is, you know, a lot of us maybe doing a live episode or something, we may do one, not regularly, but come check us out on YouTube though. Patreon exclusive, baby. Yes, possibly. Make sure to share this episode. Give us a rate and review on your podcast platform of choice. It helps us find new listeners in the show overall and in general. For Brad, I'm Kyle and we will see you again here soon. See ya.

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