Brain Soda Podcast - Episode 56 - The Scholastic Book Fire

Episode Date: April 1, 2024

On this week's episode we're talking about a book publisher who is synonymous with hit children's series, Scholastic! And then we're discussing one of history's wildest weapons, Greek Fire!

You better have all my money because tomorrow is the Scholastic Book Fair! Ah, Brain Soda. It's the Brain Soda Podcast. I as always am your host, Kyle, joined by my co-host and cohort, Brad. How's it going? Today, we're going to be talking about Greek fire. But first, Brad. Yes, Kyle? I want you to think about a book.

Okay, which book? Honestly, like probably any big name brand young adult or children's book. Okay. Because they're probably made, published or distributed by our subject today, the Scholastic Corporation. Oh man. All right. Now, do they still do the Scholastic Book Fair? I believe so in a lot of different places. They still will now

Unfortunately, there are some places that like Scholastic book fairs and things like that have come under fire What okay talk a little bit about that at the all. Okay. Yeah, you know, I know that books come under fire But I didn't know the actual book fair itself did like that. Yeah Okay to make a long story short scholastic has allowed schools to opt out of carrying certain books Within scholastic book fairs book clubs, etc. So on and so on. Okay, we can get into that Legal parameters. Yes that they may or may not cross so book banning parameters that they may or may not cross. So book banning, yes, but with that being said, the Scholastic Corporation was founded in 1920 in Pennsylvania, Brad,

by a guy named Maurice Robinson. Okay, I'm surprised it wasn't Scholastic, like Bob Scholastic or something like that. Well, it's actually really funny that you mentioned that because this all started Brad with one four page publication. It was called the Western Pennsylvania Scholastic. Okay. And it was published in 1920 and those four pages were distributed amongst his classmates. Very shortly thereafter it will cover the activities and sports of up to 50 regional high schools. Wow okay. Yeah. So like, like this is while he's still in high school. He was doing this. Yeah. And to be fair, like this is, you know,

a young kind of entrepreneur in the twenties to the 1920s. This is a hundred years ago. Yeah. And very much so. I will say like, while there is a entrepreneurial and business sense to this story, I want to say that like any company that is your stated goal and purpose, right? And there's not inherently anything wrong with that. But I will say it does kind of touch me in the FIFIs a little bit to know that Scholastic

is a children and young adult literary first company, right, like yes, that is their business model, but the fact that that's their chosen business to me, I guess, is what makes me choose them as a topic. Well, why is that? I believe it probably has some level of importance to them possibly. Oh, okay.

And it should to everyone. Well, yeah, for sure. So this original publication, only four pages in length, went on to birth Brad, the largest publisher and distributor of children's and young adult books, and the leading operator of school-based book clubs and book fairs. Moving on into like more of the events that happen within this. So a lot of them are periodicals for a long time. And in 26, they have their first actual like novelization book, right?

Like a prose book. Okay. And it is entitled Saplinks. Their first like offering as a prose work. We're going to fast forward because this company is obviously growing and thriving in the industry. Probably ebbs and flows like any other company, but in 1948, Scholastic partners with Pocket Books and they formed the Teenage Book Club or TAB as it was kind of abbreviated, right? But I think it's an important thing to note that this catered to an age range of 13 to

18 year old high school students, right? So this is kind of baked in to scholastic overall. Okay. Overall and in general, regardless of the material that's being read, because it's obviously offered to many different young adults and children all across the country, right? So the more important thing I think to me

is that you could go in these periodicals and things like that and grab a form and order the materials you wanted, the books you wanted, and go to your educator and order through them. Right? So, okay. I think that's a cool little resource to have at the school you're likely attending every day and things like that just right on hand. Yeah, that is nice. Right. And these are all things done to incentivize interest in reading, right? Like there's arguments that could be made about propping up personal pan pizzas later on by the time that we were growing up may not have been the best way to to make avid readers out of people,

but for some of us it did. It was. It was a motivator. Yeah, I was gonna say it did actually probably help a lot, but this book club idea I think is the ground level. And I think it's important when we talk about Scholastic and to some people who want to bring them up in political senses right here, pre 1950, this is baked into this company. Keep that in mind, 13 to 18 year olds able to purchase books through their teachers.

Right. So by 1957, this company's efforts have resulted in a Canadian branch. And today they are a multinational corporation in countless nations from China, Spain, Korea, the list goes on and on, right. Pretty much the modern world as well. Right. Yeah. But 61 saw it enter the education market.

And in 63, the advent of Clifford the Big Red Dog, and even today, Scholastic's logo is that very cover. And Scholastic's mascot in large part is Clifford overall. Well, Clifford needed Emily, so she chose him for her own. That's the beginning of a song that my daughter was addicted to when she was about two and a half, yeah. I love it. I's the beginning of a song that my daughter was addicted to when she was about two and a half. Yeah. I know I had to listen to that. I was going to say I bet you don't anymore. On repeat for about two hours. Yeah. But yes, Clifford is awesome. I do love Clifford. Well,

right. And like, I won't lie. I like, I think a lot of other people have fond memories from my childhood of Clifford, but to know that it came from 1963 really did kind of throw me through a bit of a loop when I was doing my research. Yeah, that is really early. I mean, I thought it was like an 80s show or something like that. Well, the show was, but I know like the books

that kind of are coming out of it. Right, yeah, it's television adaptations. And trust me, when we get a little bit later on in our segment here, there will be a litany of those that we could discuss and probably will at some point, if not in this segment right now, right? But growing and thriving in the market,

like we've said before, obviously is the thing for Scholastic. And we're gonna forward in time a little bit again, and we're gonna go to 81. And in 81, it launched what may be the most popular brand it has outside of some of its highest grossing brands that it produces under its banner, right? That would be the Scholastic Book Fair.

Oh, okay. I was thinking for another book series. I'm like, what book series could it be? But yes, the Scholastic Book Fair, they would bring in these giant trunks and open them out and s open them out and splay them out. And you know, as much as I hate to say it, my initial research methods kind of bore out a lot of anecdotal but highly positive examples of getting these catalogs and going through and picking out what books they wanted to get every single month, tracking

what books they were reading to go get those personal pan pizzas or attend a party at the end of the month. Or all these different things. Yes. I loved it so much. These books were not solely academic. You could get cheat code books. You could get how to draw Bible comics. Toys and stuff stuff I'm sure it's like half toys now but like educational toys I'm sure but even then

you're right you could get the crazy the turn of the millennia stuff I remember so well you could get the big green gray one aliens inflatable and you could get the I remember like the the chemistry kits and me like airplane stuff maybe even like magic kits and stuff like that I used to get the comic book superheroes Dictionaries or whatever right the character dictionaries and stuff Yeah I had an x-men one that I loved and would read all the time and just read about

Mimic and all these different people who were in the 60s book because like well didn't know that the 60s book came before Wolverine and Colossus and all the s*** you love, right? Like, I don't know. Maybe that's why we have a podcast that is the way that it is. But like, for real, even me, maybe not the most astute reader ever. I loved the Scholastic Book Fair, right? I will say that now. Exactly. It got so many people onto to reading because like it was this crazy thing Oh, they're coming. You know they're gonna set up this crazy fair a crazy cool marketplace Right look at all these crazy books like there's all you know and like I don't know I've always been a fan of like the feel the look and the smell of books and everything so like to see how you know

These brand new books and stuff off the, it's the best. No, like we talked about with John, that pulpy paper feel and smell, man, is something that it triggers certain responses and people, I guess, is that the only way to say it. Right. You know, I know for me, seeing something and knowing that it's kind of a relic in older comic book particular. But even if you were to pull out Moby Dick or like a first print of Cosmos for you or whatever it may be for our listeners at home, like even if you weren't to get them at the Scholastic Book Fair though, Brad, there is a litany

of titles underneath the Scholastic banner that we need to address because I feel like when I go through this list, if I haven't named something that you loved as a child or love right now, you probably need to finish this episode obviously and go check some of them out. You have kids, definitely do it with them too. For sure. Clifford, as we stated earlier, right, the mascot of the company itself. Diary of a wimpy kid, babysitter's club, magic school bus, I spy, Goosebumps, Animoar's, Captain Underpants, Harry Potter, Dogman, Hunger Games, Bone underneath the graphics label,

which in 2005 started to produce several different graphic novels for young readers like Guts, just listing off all of those books right there. Yeah that's crazy like I didn't know like half those were scholastic. And when you think about the television, film, and various other levels of adaptations, graphic novels themselves for things like Animorphs, it goes so far beyond just, you know, a single, hey everybody, we're showing up with all these books. As a matter of fact, I didn't know for the longest time

Scholastic was actually a book publisher. I thought it was like just a group that came in and incentivized reading. But later on, they kind of will delve into that even harder conceptually because in 2006, they started making efforts into researching childhood literacy, which I think obviously is like near saintly, right? Like, you know, honestly, like it's, it's an important thing. Yeah, that's actually, that's really cool.

It does kind of sound cliche, but like for real, I find this to be a really cool company for these reasons. I was going to say like, this sounds like a good company that has, it doesn't have any scandals. I mean maybe there is some but... You know what? I'm sure that there are. You know what? Like to be honest, like let's just come out and say it. A company in and of itself is not responsible for the actions of the people that its head, that doesn't make the company overall in and of itself evil. It makes the people responsible for those actions such,

and dealt with accordingly, the company becomes absolved. To be honest, right? And I'm not saying this from the rah rah. No, exactly, because I mean, what are you gonna do? There's always gonna be people. There's always gonna be bad people. And in any collective there's going to be people right like at some point you need to just distance and disavow them and that's just what it is but I

don't want to get into that too too deeply. Exactly yep. Because the point is is that I believe the overall mission statement of Scholastic. It's I mean, and they're delivering on it for decades is what's important here, because all of these imagination sparking, emotionally growing, mind opening and heart wrenching stories happening before and many continuing after Scholastic's 100th year as a business in 2020. Yeah. Now, I noticed unfortunately during my research, Bradley, and if you'll nudge me, I want to take one last moment to speak on, people like Kirk Cameron and various other,

I don't want to say the word grifter, but I do believe that at any point people who came out over the past year, and I saw many, really take a look at exactly what I just laid out and tell me that this is just a terrible company full of terrible people trying to indoctrinate children and bring out sorrow and woe across the land. Tell me that about this company and then propose what you propose and act it out and tell me that it wouldn't do that or worse. Well, I'll just say one thing though. Goosebumps, man. Goosebumps was pretty scary. And it didn't ever hurt nobody. How about that? No, exactly. No, that's what I mean. Like, yeah, I am in total agreement with you. Like this whole and it's sad.

It's this I had to cover this and say that like exactly. Like, I cannot believe that we're actually banning books and stuff in this day and age. But it's it's because this is a thing like books. If you're going to read a book that like it's a lot different than like watching something or reading something online, like, right, you know, it's a whole story typically, you know, and like I feel like you should read, be able to read every single book that is out there if you want. I don't read, but I will say this right now.

I love film and television and I love comic books, Two mediums that adapt the written word to script, let alone use them at different points, right? I'm just saying the fact that reading aloud, something that can be pictured immediately, yet it can evoke a litany more emotion because of the level of investment you have by opening that book and delving into it versus throwing on that movie and delving into it at times, is what

speaks volume to the written word. Yeah, exactly. And I mean, like, I guess the whole argument is the children, you know, you gotta save the children, protect the children. And like, obviously, I'm a parent, right? 100% I want to protect my children, right? I want to make sure they're in a safe environment. But I really don't think books are a danger to them because the people that say certain books are dangerous and you need to be a man are typically books where they're talking about you know sexuality or gender or race. Explicitly those three things. Exactly. It's things like that.

And really, or even like swear words or like, okay, to go to some extreme, like, I know some people like couldn't read Harry Potter because, you know, witchcraft, right? And Scholastic did to mention that point in its advertising immediately after people calling for those boycotts, they made it a point to say, okay, let's play Kate to them and not say magic. Let's make sure everybody who's in their FIFIs right now doesn't hear the word they don't like. Exactly. Like they've catered to these people too.

They shouldn't though, in my eyes at least, right? Because- To an extent I agree with that, right, I do. When you're at the age where you're reading these books, and like, I mean, it goes back to like parenting, right? You know, a parent should kind of, you know, police a little bit of what their kids are reading, but to a certain extent, especially when they're a teenager, they, you know, that's the time they should be reading

these types of books, because that's the time they need to understand who they are and what they are, and you know, they're growing. This is when they're becoming an adult. Thank you for that point, because that's why I thought that book club was so important to bring up is that exactly yeah if you're telling me that a kid who needs a I honestly do mean this needs a story whether he gets it from film or whatever but to be honest very often in life you're at a very young age and

you're discovering yourself and I feel like if you were to come across one of these YA books it may save your life I hate to say it like that I mean yeah I'm sure it has many times or at the very least let you know there's a different world yeah then the high school or the house you're living in where you feel like you walk on eggshells or whatever it may be, right? Books have changed my life and changed my viewpoints to the better, to the better, my own, you know, like, I mean, not save my life.

I don't think a book has saved my life, but it's changed my life. And in the land of the free, we're talking about banning books. Yeah, it's insane. And from one of the most honorable companies in my eyes from a mission statement I will say that right, but my point is is that for real? I I can't even suggest scholastic as a brand because There's almost no chance that this hasn't touched you. Yes as a child or as an adult It's like the Coca-Cola yeah

exactly like it is the name brand of young literature and for that I really do salute Scholastic and I appreciate the extra time that you gave me I do too you know man like like I didn't know they were like so broad you know influential exactly like I always just thought Scholastic, you know, influential. Exactly. Like I always just thought scholastic. Oh, you know, Clifford and the fair. Right. And like I didn't know they like Harry Potter and, you know, the Hunger Games. You know, one thing, though, is that they never really had nothing about like fire.

One thing, though, is that they did have a lot of history type stuff. I remember one of my favorite things at the Scholastic Book Fair were those like I Spy or whatever. Was it I Spy? I Spy, yeah. I was going to say that's one of the big brands. Was it one where it had like ancient books and stuff like it was like ancient things like big pictures. It's like it just nice like pictures

of all these different artifacts and all that, man. I loved that. One of their first efforts in the educational space was a multi-text about world history. That's awesome though. Like, yeah, those books, like I guarantee, influenced my love of history. I can guarantee that like because of those books, I like history now.

There's a direct correlation there. And today we're going to talk about Greek fire and the Byzantines. And I think, you know, that would have been something that would have been in one of those I spy books, probably. Absolutely. And I mean, honestly, probably one of our high school or middle school books at some point or another was scholastic. Yeah so yeah let's get into it. So Greek fire was a flammable chemical weapon used in the Eastern Roman Empire and I like to call

it the Eastern Roman Empire not the the Byzantine. But I mean, it's commonly referred to as the Byzantine Empire from around the seventh to the 14th century. Because of the capital. Yeah, the capital. Well, in one of these days, we'll get into that another day. Yeah, another day. But we'll just say at one point, the Roman Empire was divided into two halves. Like it was still, you know, the Roman Empire.

And then the Western part fell to the Goths, which were like Germans. The Visigoths. Yes, the Visigoths and the Ostrogoths. These were still Romans, right? This is why Rome just fascinates me because this empire lasted until 1453, if I'm not mistaken, when the Ottomans took over Constantinople and turned it into Istanbul which is Istanbul not Constantinople. That's nobody's business but the Turks but today it's not gonna be our business but we're gonna talk about the Byzantines which were before then right? Anyways this fire would burn so hot that it could like melt the iron shields on

soldiers and I guess sailors for the most part because it was a mostly a naval weapon but okay this was some crazy fire like it was like ancient napalm kind of if you think about it and although the exact recipe was and is still unknown because it was a closely guarded secret like throughout all time it was like closely guarded through the state like it was even like know, kind of how the nuclear bomb was developed. Like everybody only knew their own job, right? They didn't know what the other parts did or anything like that.

Right, right. Yeah. But modern researchers, though, have like figured it out despite like you'll see on YouTube and whatever, probably history channel and Discovery Now, you know, like you know like what was Greek fire what it wasn't made out of let's go check it out did aliens bring it yeah I hope not oh you know that somewhere I'm sure it was actually given to them by the alien technology but it was just it was some sort of napalm and we'll get into what it likely was but i mean wait can i guess it really quick

potassium no and that actually was potassium was one of the things like a blend obviously not straight but they thought maybe there might be some potassium in one of the theories of what it was like the disputed yeah okay so this fire though this fire could be like shot onto water and it wouldn't be extinguished, right? So it was, like I said, it was like napalm. It needed to be suffocated.

Right. You need to have like sand. But water could not sufficiently like... Well, does water snuff out fire with oxygen? Because I thought what it was... Well, it depends because, yeah, it can, but a lot of things that can't be exactly, and this wasn't oil fighters, it was like part of, it was oily. It was like tar and oily.

Well, it was buoyant enough that it would sit on top of water, thus it couldn't be rinsed, you know, or whatever. Yeah. It was set on top of the water so that it would be able to keep getting oxygen and everything. Oh yeah. And it was sticky, you know, like this is like a sticky tarry substance. Right. So with like stick to you and oh man, I could just imagine. It's just like pitch. Yeah, exactly. It's just like, you know, like pine tar, you know, I mean,

that's one of the ingredients and they will say that, you know, like it's in the writings, they will say that, but it's not the main, you know, it's not the secret ingredient. Well, I could see that right. Some sap, some potassium, some this, some that, you know, it's not the secret ingredient. Well, I could see that, right? Some sap, some potassium, some this, some that, you know, right? So the term Greek fire though, it's been commonly used since the Crusades. Like the Europeans were the ones that kind of termed it Greek fire.

But these guys, this is like, if you know the area, this is all kind of what I was talking about with Alexander, right? This is all that Asia Minor area where like Greece and Turkey and even Syria to some extent, you know, like that area has so much like history and culture and everything to it.

Yeah, but that's where they were. You know, they were centered in Constantinople. It's kind of like the bassinet of civilization, right? You know what I mean? Like so much spawns from it that it's the cradle. It's one, it is a cradle, yeah for sure. Right, right, thank you. Yeah, but these Byzantines, they originally called it sea fire or Roman fire or war fire, liquid fire. They had like a bunch of names for it, but I mean mostly like sea fire was like what they like termed it a lot of the time, you know? And even though it was a chemical itself,

it really should be thought of as like a system because that's what made it special like people got their hands different you know invading armies and countries and stuff like that got their hands on this stuff but they couldn't figure out how to work it right there was a siphon system and the Byzantines like if you know there's this term called like oh man That's very Byzantine meaning like it's super complex and that's because okay the Byzantines like especially their political structure Was like extremely complex man. They have like different levels I haven't played them in Civ yet, but it is one of the prospects for one of my next play

Okay, definitely do it next time. But yeah so these ships you know they had these ships that carried this siphon and it was able to like shoot out or squirt out this it was specialized and back then you know we're talking the seventh to the 14th century this is like medieval times right and they had this thing that could like squirt out it was a flamethrower like a giant flamethrower essentially. They just squirt the picture you're saying there's a live flame coming from this. So just like a modern flamethrower like a giant flamethrower essentially. They just squirt the picture you're saying there's a live flame coming from this. So just like a modern flamethrower it was like you know a tube with this stuff and we'll get into what theoretically right and then a separate flame held above and like a

flame right at the end yeah right at the end and then boom yeah and they also they used like grenades they had like grenades holy yeah little glass they had like mini mini like squirt guns of it yeah like they they also had squirt guns which i think is funny like i mean they were flamethrowers but like i'm sure they look like squirt guns you know what i'll be honest that's what i thought it was more than likely to be two cylinders and you sucked one out and shot it and Then one guy with a torch That's what I always kind of thought Yeah To hear all of this. It's so elaborate and awesome. I love it

It is it's so crazy man And like I wanted to go into some of the battles but like we could be here all day talking about the battles and one of these days we'll talk in the future about some of the good ones. The best of Greek Fire volume one. Yes, yeah. So most of the accounts of Greek Fire though were like secondary sources or more often than not like just misinformed or lying and stuff because like people didn't want to talk about it.

Even the military manuals there was a lot of Byzantine military manuals which were like sweet like I didn't know they had these they were like kind of like the art of war like it was like a you know Byzantine art of war but it's like you know how to like mostly attack in like Persia because like they just fought the or you know the Arab nations but the Middle East right right they fought them like constantly until the actual like Islam took over you know like that's the actual like Islam took over, you know, like that's really what ended up taking over the area. But so one of the more accurate sources of this fire though was from this woman named Anna Komemne. And I hope I said that right. I mean, I've listened to so much of this one podcast about the Byzantines and

the Komemnes are like a big, you know, family. Oh, then I think you got it. Alexius. I believe in you. Yeah, I'm pretty sure it's hard. It's K-O-M, N-E, any, but, um, or at least, you know, in English, but Alexius or Alexis was her father and he was like a big, you know, he was a big emperor. He ruled for a long time and all that. And this woman though, like, man, she like, you know, it's kind of cool because like at this time, this was I think in the like the 12th century, if I'm not mistaken, like she wrote this Alexiad, which was like this very historic and very, it was like a biographical book about her dad.

And I think in like her brother, you know, that was ruling at the time. And like, it's cool to see that, right? You know, to have that first account, you know, that firsthand account and by a woman nonetheless right right right so she writes a partial recipe for the concoction and she says I quote this fire is made by the following arts from the pine and certain such evergreen trees inflammable resin is collected this is rubbed with sulfur and put into tubes of reed and is blown by men using it with violent and continuous breath. Then in this manner it meets the fire on the tip and catches light and falls like a fiery whirlwind on the faces of the enemies. Wow that is poetically sick. It's so metal. I love it. It is. I just want to hear that as a song.

Like if we could get some downbeats on that. Man I bet you there is something It's so metal, I love it. It is. I just want to hear that as a song. Like, if we could get some downbeats on that. Man, I bet you there is something like that. You know, some metal or something talking about the freaking... Some Iced Earth record somewhere. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Because the Russians... Actually, there was a battle with the Russians where Greek Fire was used.

The Rus, which were like early Russians, which were from actually Ukraine. And there's this whole thing, you know, actually it has to do with the war going on currently in 2024, you know, with Ukraine and Russia. The motherland tape. Yeah, that's part of the reason. But anyways, this is another story. But yeah, so from this, you know, if you listen to the quote, you know, that she's talking about the pine and there's certain trees, you know, this pine tar they take and they put it in these tubes. Right. And then it's blown by men. So like they're using like bellows to, you know, heat it up. Okay.

They're heating this liquid up though. So like from other sources and from this, you know, like we can say like azotane, like three things or like three main points. Right. In fir it. Right, infer maybe, right. Yeah, exactly, yeah. That it burned on water and was like even ignited by some other sources. Okay. And that like it had to be smothered, or like some sources say that it could be put out

by like vinegar or old urine, so maybe like ammonia. Maybe it was like a caustic thing then maybe, because it was acidic. But another chemical resource, Exactly. And not water, right, okay. Yeah, pretty much that was an indistinguishable, you know, like water doesn't put it out

is the main thing, like, you know. Okay, right. The second thing was that it was a liquid and not a projectile, you know, so like, Right, right, probably an important distinction, right? And especially in the times like, what's comparable to grenades at this point? Only in like China. Right, and that's glass, isn't it? Or is it like an actual grenade?

I think so. Okay. Well China had fireworks almost. Oh okay. They didn't really have like fire you know like yeah. But yeah so and then also that it was usually ejected from a siphon but it could also be used in grenades like you said. The last thing though is that it was accompanied by a thunder and a lot of smoke, right? So like allow like bang and smoke. OK. I don't think the bang was probably just like the things being released, you know, or like I think it's just like a hiss and they say it's thunder.

But maybe not, you know, maybe because I don't know. Yeah, there's no telling besides audibly hearing it happening. But I would assume exactly that no matter what the initial lighting is an immediate violent exothermic reaction and thus a loud clatter happens across You know what I mean? We got like a whoosh Yeah, that's probably what it is because they probably like made it spray They probably figure out a way to make it like, you know spread like, you know, you put it on your Unit you're miss setting but you know, you're you got your garden hose

Whatever your spray setting so that it doesn't or dreams meeting together exactly yeah so that it doesn't it's not like a chunk of water it's not a stream it's more of like a you know like they can make it like a wall of fire or maybe they had different nozzles and stuff you know I know they did like they put like lions and stuff at the heads of the nozzle so it's like a lion breathing fire like back then man that had to been crazy just to see that type of stuff. Oh yeah. Imagine being the first encounter of. Yes, exactly.

You know, imagine being the first people to survive and have to tell the rest of your tribe or whatever it would be like. So what did they do? Well, they came in with all this paste, right? All right, what's the big deal? They burned us down. Oh, then a giant fire happened.

What? Yes. Yeah, they just they were throwing fire out of their ships. Yeah. Okay So like there was the siphon on the ships, right? And it was also used in sieges though and when it was used in sieges They would like dip like buckets, you know, and then like the buckets on fire or drop them or the portable projectiles though Like I was saying the super soakers I like to call them. They were Kyra. They were Kyra Sophanes. I think it's like how you say it in Greek. OK, but they were repeatedly invented by the emperor Leo the sixth. And I think he was also a big emperor again. Like this is, you know, over a thousand years of history. There's tons of history about these Byzantines. Right.

Man, I just, I love it. I love how the Romans lasted that long. You know, like they're still Romans. They thought themselves, they were always called themselves Romans. Like they never stopped thinking they were the Roman Empire. So this is going on from what? You know, pretty much 43 BC to 1543 CE. Man, wow, yeah, that's crazy. Yeah. I mean, it is and it isn't because we know of Rome in such forlorn tale that like,

it just seems like a stat to a certain extent, but to take it all in like. Yeah, but it just goes on. It just goes on and on. No, that is right That is like up until I don't even want to say the dawn it is the dawn of Western civilization, right? Almost till the discovery. Yeah until they find America. Yeah, like 40 years before they find America. It's insane. Yeah, anyways Anna come M. Nay she also wrote in the Alexia describing the contraption as

Quote he meaning the Emperor Alexius, knew the Pissons were skilled in sea warfare and dreaded a battle with them. On the prow of each ship he had a head fixed of a lion or other than animal, made of brass or iron with the mouth open and then gilded over so that the mere aspect was terrifying and the fire which was to be directed against the enemy through tubes he made to pass through the mouths of the beast so that it seemed as if the lions and the other similar monsters were vomiting the fire. Wow, dope. Metal AF. I love it. Yeah, I just, aw man, I just love I just love, like to see that would be crazy. Well right, I mean, not even that,

like obviously to hear it, again, the power of verbiage, right? Like to hear it detailed out in the written word is a really cool experience. But yeah, I could only imagine what it would be like to have a bird's eye view and just see raining fire in a battle. Yeah, ships on fire. Exactly. The ship fire. That's just crazier to me, man. It's just like, yeah.

But even beyond that, could you imagine seeing people mount up ladders to the side of a castle wall and get three quarters of the way up and a flaming bucket drops down on them one by one by one and the ladders burning and the people trenching at the bottom are burning that the sea fire would be dope but I feel like it'd be quick. They're on mostly wooden boats, sails, dog everybody's dead and that thing is burning into ash and sinking into the ocean within hours. This can go all night long, depending on how many people are running up them ladders or trying to.

Well, years, sometimes a month, I mean, depending on how the siege works, but yeah. Yeah, so to get into like, I mean, the thing with the ships though, is that it's just this contraption, man. Like that is really what to me is really crazy because they had like this pressurized system and everything right and the way they think they did it. Yeah this is pre indoor plumbing yeah and they're making flamethrowers. Yeah you can look up like

what artists renditions of what they think it is you know and all that but essentially what they think is was a large furnace under a copper pot full of the mixture right so there's this copper pot that's like pressurized and sealed up and full of the stuff because this stuff's thick right right right it's just tarry substances gotta be heated up to get moving I was gonna say like street tar it's probably heated up right yeah so they heat it up and then they have a pump with a nozzle that shoots it out and oh well that's where you get your stream exactly well the

pump i mean that's how you adjust it to spray or not pressurizing this stuff right like that's the big thing is that you're like because you're heating up and pressurizing it yeah yeah and that shoots it out right and then it was probably burnt like it was heated by using linen or flaks like cloth right because they didn't have like wood they didn't want to bring wood on the ship, or much, you know, you don't want to bring a bunch of wood, because it's heavy. And also, it might burn slower maybe, or a different way, if you have like certain things,

like soap, and it burns slower at a lower temperature maybe, or something like that. So that created a bunch of smoke though, so there's your smoke. Oh, sh**. Yep, that's the reports of the smoke more than likely and once the liquids heated though like I said it's pressurized and the valve on the pump was then opened and then it comes shooting

out of the nozzle and the tip of the nozzle like I said had a flame at the end and it also was on a pivot so it could like move back and forth oh my god this is so efficiently deadly yeah it it is. Yeah like think about that because like I'm telling you right now I can see it. I mean you can use that modern day. You can use it in like a modern day war you know in like a tank. Absolutely and be highly efficient. Yeah just napalm it's napalm man like that's right. Yeah for the longest time, though, they thought saltpeter like scholars, you know, European scholars thought saltpeter was what I guess like from the 1700s 1800s on, you know, they're like, it had to be saltpeter, you know, this is gunpowder. But it couldn't be because gunpowder wasn't brought to Europe until the 13th century,

even into the Middle East until that time. And right. They thought it was because of this thunder and smoke, but obviously, like I said, the linen and the flax burning was what made that more than likely. And maybe it probably burned too, because we'll get into what it is, like this stuff burns, like it's smoky when it burns. So, you know, that's obviously will burn,

you know, make a lot of smoke. And another theory was that it was from quicklime and other ingredients like that. You know, like what we talked about going back to the periodic table, you know, making a lot of smoke. Right, right. And another theory was that it was from quicklime and other ingredients like that. You know, like what we talked about going back to the periodic table, you know, when you mentioned phosphorus, like these things that are reactive with water, maybe, you know, calcium or phosphorus

or sodium or something like that. But the thing is the direct accounts and the evidence suggests against that because if it was made with that, it would ignite at that point because Greek fire was poured on the wet decks of ships right you know like the decks of ships get really wet and but they would also pour it on there to like light the ships on fire so you get like there's not like if it would have the quick lime or the thing that's reactive with water

it would ignite once it contacted the water. Right. And also they kind of grenades too. I guess they can make some like crazy grenade where there's like half you know Greek fire half water or something and they throw it. That would be kind of cool if it was. Yeah I could see that a second bulb inside of the first and then once the one goes the other one's kind of a thinner glass. Yeah but I don't think there was that. And it was never glass. It was mostly like bronze. It was like bronze grenades they threw.

Oh, okay. Yeah. But at least, you know, the Greek fire was. But also, they've done like moderate experiments where like they've made things with quick lime and things like that. And it would, it just didn't work like that. You know, the way those alkaline metals react with the water, they like kind of explode, right? You know, they don't really catch fire.

They're more of like an, it's an, yeah, it's an explosion type thing, right? Instantaneous, right. So kind of be that. But modern scholars, this is what they've probably thought. And then what more than likely it was is this stuff called naphtha or also known as crude oil. Oh, okay. Wow. All right.

Because I mean, yeah, obviously they didn't have internal combustion or also known as crude oil. Oh, okay. Wow. Yeah. All right. Because I mean, yeah, obviously they didn't have internal combustion engines at this time, right? Right. But there was things like the Beverly Hillbillies where, you know, there's just some oil spurting out of the ground.

You would get a guy there, right? Exactly, yeah. And there was a lot of those and there is still a lot of those around the Black Sea. That's why Russia, you know, wants a lot of control of that area, things like that. And also throughout the Middle East, right, we're talking the Middle East, you know, the Middle East is that's the whole reason why America is in the Middle East right now. Yeah, yeah, and was during most of our Adalipids. Exactly, yep. So like they probably had access to these natural

naphtha springs, or wells if you want to call them that right and From that they probably use that with this pine tar right they mix this stuff or refine it a little bit to make it more Flammable. Thicken it up maybe. Exactly yeah, if you know like crude oil if it burns You know you've seen like oil fires and stuff like that. It's like this black smoke. It can burn for days. Right. And it burns for days too. Yeah. But it's black. It's like this thick black smoke. You know, that might be the smoke from the freakhead. Right. Right.

And there's accounts like to support this, right? In the sixth century, even this is before Greek fire was invented. There's this Greek historian named Procopius that he talks about this Persian oil that they call the Median oil that was used by them to burn things, not as a weapon. But in the 9th century... But a fuel source for burning, right? Exactly, yeah. And in the 9th century, the Apocytes, which were like the rulers of the Middle East at the time, like the Persian like the Persian Empire. Yeah, they had special troops called the Naffatun, but they were like,

you know, flamethrower troops, kind of like they had, you know, they had squirt guns too, man. Well, they had copper containers that they threw, not squirt guns, sorry. To me, it's the two cylinder squirting mechanism, right? Like it seems like a simple enough design. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. That's how I think the square grunts were or something like that like a little tube like a little yeah but like I said though it was these tars and resins that really were like the mix of that what made it special you know because you could heat it up and it was sticky and like they just refined it to the perfect thing and like from that, they were able to save their city

with other things, but against the roots, I think, if I'm not mistaken, that saved their city by burning down that naval battle, which, yeah, we'll have to get into one of these days. But I just, I don't know. Definitely. It's awesome, man. I love Greek fire.

It's such an interesting thing, such a cool weapon. Flamethrowers back in the medieval times. No, it is. And like, right. And like, I won't lie, this is one of the things that when I knew we were going to cover, I was like, oh yeah, like that level of excitement of familiarity, because like it is, it's so metal. It such a cool advent and and war use in the time of that it yeah like permeates right but yeah to even hear you lay it out now it's so much more technologically advanced than even i remember yeah the engineering of it like it's awesome yeah the engineering it was a really cool time to hear you talk about it and to hear about some of

these battles i would really like to do. And if you have something you would like to cover, why don't you let us know. You can reach us on our social medias, Facebook, Instagram, TikTok, YouTube, on Patreon, where you can now find our episodes, both early and unedited. Give us a rate and review on your podcast platform

of choice to help out the show. For Brad, I'm Kyle and we will see you again here soon. See ya. Ah, brain soda.