Brain Soda Podcast - Episode 58 - A Star Trek Through the Time of the Aztecs

Episode Date: April 15, 2024

On this week's episode we're talking about a beloved series of geekdom, Star Trek: The Next Generation! Then we're covering the pre-Columbian period of the Aztecs!

Run with the Borg, baby. Assimilate. Ah, brain soda. It's the Brain Soda Podcast. I, as always, am your host Kyle, joined by my co-host and cohort, Brad. How's it going today? We're going to be talking about the ads tax, but first podcast log day 390. We travel out into the 58 sector to talk about something, Brad, that I know that you're a little bit more familiar with than me. But regardless of which I'm well aware is very important. Maybe one of the most beloved television shows of all time.

But most importantly, it's one of the most important elements of science fiction. Today, Brad, we're gonna talk about Star Trek The Next Generation. Oh yeah. I don't know why I did Shatner, but's all right. Yeah. No, I thought that's great. Yeah. Oh man. I did watch it. This was the actually the only Star Trek series that I watched. Um I think I watched

like a little bit of the next one after that but it was pretty good. It was my fall asleep show when I was like 20 or so. It's been a while. Yeah. No and I will say this honestly uh has a little bit of reverence for me in a similar aspect because one of the guys who comes in later to help write on TNG, as we're gonna kind of refer to this as in a shorthand just for you to know, but Ronald Moore, no relation, actually wrote Battlestar Galactica's reboot in 2004, and that was my big sci-fi show of my 20s.

So I think we both have a level of reverence for this. And I think when we finish this story, we're really going to see why. But to start off with why in 1986, there was much reference for this franchise. We're gonna start in the late 60s. Gene Roddenberry developed the original Star Trek, a revolutionary show of its time involved in like kind of a, you know, 23rd century utopia that had inclusive cast and really revolutionized the way television shows portrayed people of color, portrayed women, and made those characters able to work together in a day and age when it really seemed impossible for them to be able to work together, right?

Yeah. Like, was he like the sole creator, Gene Roddenberry? Was he like... Gene Roddenberry is kind of always associated with being the main creative force behind Star Trek overall. But I will say this, in his initial like attempts to relaunch, reboot, and work within this space, he does often go to grabbing veterans from the series. Even here in TNG, he will start season one with four veteran writers of the original series, right? Okay. Now where are the veterans diverse and stuff like the cast was? Because you're right, like that was like like the first I think the first black person there was there was One woman notable there was one woman notably of them and and I will say this although

I don't know of any people of color. Yeah directly writing for them, right? But I will say that like at the time maybe Hollywood should have Emulated it a little bit better and there there was a long period of time. There's even elements of this story that writing four characters of color and women weren't the best. So it's not like we learned. No, but as a 60s show, like for like, because I remember, like, I don't remember exactly. There was a black woman on the show, right.

And in the Lieutenant Ohura. Yeah. Yes. Okay. And I think there's an Asian Asian man too right yes that's Sulu and that is oh whoever though but okay those two people though right this was George Sakai yes of course how did I not know? Yeah. Oh, my. We forgot George Sakai, which who turns out to be a gay icon like 40 years later, too. Right. OK, yeah. That might have helped people that at that time, too, because I don't know if it was like nobody.

OK. But anyways, but just the fact that that him and the woman were on there like that members of the crew Contributed. Yes, absolutely. And that yeah, like there was never like actually a supporting character That wasn't just like playing like, you know Oh a black woman playing a housemate or something like that a token or yeah, like the token essentially. Yeah, right exactly Yeah, yeah But with that being said star Star Trek actually didn't last that long. It's when TNG surpasses its 80th episode legacy, I believe it's titled, that it beats the initial airing of Star Trek. I believe there was like a season or two they did of

an animated series. And in 77, Roddenberry and Paramount, right, they were looking to relaunch with Star Trek Phase Two. Those plans really don't come to fruition, and thus we're born Star Trek The Motion Picture was a little bit more of a reboot in and of itself, but this is all original cast stuff still, right? Those movies go on to get to about a fourth Sequel by the time that we're gonna start our story proper in the mid to late 80s, right? but just so that we know there had already been attempts in working at some sort of a television or

You know ultimately they were doing a film franchise in the Star Trek universe So at this point one of did these movies come out? I guess because like I know that it's like late 70s. I think maybe even 19. It may even be 1980 proper that the first one comes out because you've got to think like pre-production like that, like 77 in a New Hope's initial success is part of what makes everybody willing to put money down, No matter what the whole time, Star Trek goes into syndication after its cancellation

from NBC and it keeps airing and it keeps having a return and it keeps having a growing audience and it continues and continues and continues and continues. And then initially in the eighties, they were going to reboot again on television with Shatner and Nimoy and the original crew. But Paramount had to shell out $5 million to procure those two actors to reprise their roles in the fourth of that film franchise, A Voyage Home. But comparably, $5 million would produce roughly five episodes of an hour block of television for these guys. So it was not going to be feasible for them to continue on with those guys. Plus their age.

Nimoy and Shatner have kind of been embattled rivalry, I believe, at times. Also, at this point like had kind of crosswords with Shatner as well. So regardless of such, right? Like there's a little bit of a stigma and time in there. And Ron Berry, I think is already looking in the right way to an extent that this television show was gonna take place 100 years roughly

after the events of the original series. And while they were still making these offers and reruns into syndication, I want to go to a 1986 article I found in the New York Times talking about Paramount's decision here, because they look to all these different stations at this time. So Fox is a broadcaster They're producing programming for Showtime and USA within the year But they go to first run syndication because they felt that no one was going to care about Star Trek the way that they did and for real this show to me is what makes Star Trek a legacy brand Yeah for 20 years or so so this was rerunning episodes.

That's why I saw it for sure yeah. Right of the original Star Trek they were running those but now with these seven seasons that we're gonna talk about now now that we're starting our story in 86 right these seven seasons that are about to happen they go to first run syndication because they know the market base is there because they've already been playing that's 20 years old and people are still watching it right. And I feel like it's because of things that we talk about on this show, right? Like Star Trek as a concept is far enough future that we have warp time travel, right? We have all these phasers and holo- well, we invent the holodeck here, I'm sorry, yet Earth and a unified structured society in the United

Federation of Planets is like, I think honestly, the lessons that we're learning from Star Trek, that immediate future, that is part of the reason why people love it so much, to see everybody accepted, get along, going towards these goals, and gathering other societies into the fold is a beautiful prospect for society to strive to, right? Yeah, because that's the basis of TNG, is that they're going out trying to

of all of Star Trek, essentially, right?, and when and yes and when you hear the term like prime directive episodes and things like that, right? It is to find these other societies and like, you know not you know not disrupt their like social Evolution or whatever you want to call it, right? Like you can't come up to a primitive race and bang them and just hand them warp technology like that's immediately against the prime directive or whatever but like to work within the unified planets and things like that it is part of it and they do explore the far sectors of space typically but I feel like just like he was saying when it comes to the show

going to first run syndication, you see Paramount making a bet on itself for the IP essentially here with the choices that it has in its casting for TNG, right? You know, a classically trained actor like Stuart for Picard or LeVar Burton's Geordie, you also have like Riker, the Crusher's and perhaps most notable Brett Spiner's data. Will Wheaton. Oh, yeah. As Wesley Crusher. Honestly, even a guy like Will Wheaton, who literally, I guess, is only known

for this show in the Big Bang Theory. That's why it's like, don't forget Will Wheaton. Right. I mean, but literally he's made a career on being like the annoying kid A lot of people hate on in TV. Yeah, you know what I mean? But he is kind of a geek and like science literate culture figure I don't mind Wil Wheaton as much as people hate on this guy. I will say that I know there's a lot of hate I don't know why like from what I've seen he seems like a right guy for like I really don't get why other I guess I could get it if I was watching this and like oh

Wesley again, yeah Deal with him. Just want his mom Anyway, but in the article that I mentioned that before Fox actor Leonard Nimoy remarked that Paramount Phonica catch lightning in a bottle again And you know what? Maybe they kind of thought they could, but I'm going to tell you right now. They really did. Like when you look at Brett Spiner and Patrick Stewart and the VAR Burton and the performances that get put in by from war, right from Riker, these are people who, that I feel like maybe they weren't paying

attention to like every single thing they could do on stage or screen beforehand. But when it comes to what they do here in these seven seasons, it is chef's kiss. It really is. Like, I mean, that's the thing. Like it's good acting. It's a good storyline. And like, and it's episodic too. Cause like, I mean, yes, the thing. Like it's good acting. It's a good storyline. And like, and it's episodic too. Cause like, I mean, yes, you do. You can watch it from not always, but yeah, you can watch it. Like there is a main story going throughout like the entire series. But if you want to just throw an episode on, you won't be lost no matter almost like you won't be very lost, right? You'll, you'll be able to just understand the gist of it.

And it's kind of like, you know, a detective show or whatever, but it's not, you know, but it is similar to it though, in a way. There's a lot of love for detectives here, right? When we talk about holodeck episodes and stuff like that, we will talk about how Data has a love of Sherlock Holmes, so much so that Moriarty gets consciousness and tries to leave the holotech. You know, and even to the extent that when Stuart will go into it at times, he plays a hard-boiled PI. You know what I mean? Like there is a love of detective stories and things here. And I think that kind of mystery of the weak feel does come in a lot of detective stories and things here. And I think that kind of mystery of the week feel

does come in a lot of these episodes, right? And that is why it is very easy to put an episode of TNG on and just get lost in your 45 minutes and if you're watching it on DVD or something, I guess. But get lost in that hour and just see what happens, right? I really feel like that's part of what makes it all that much more easier to do and a beloved offering Overall, but like we said with the Muppets these guys kind of felt that they could bet on themselves and went to first-run syndication so when you say first-run syndication, you mean that like it just was like anybody can yeah,

Stations could purchase the rights to air that material. Okay, like so like when it first came out there was multiple channels that had it or? I think the what it would be is that the market typically whoever had the first rights got it within the market because if I'm the ABC affiliate and I've been airing Star Trek for 20 years and I know there's first run syndication for Star Trek, I'm buying that. Yeah. Yeah. Instantaneously I am. So why is the NPC Protogram Director going to go buy it? I mean, what's the difference than just them pitch it? I guess they just made it before. They did make pitches. So when it comes down to it I think the best

offer that they got or at least the one I was able to find out some info on was the one from Fox. Fox offered them a 13 episode deal which when you look at the production of about a million dollars an episode it just wasn't gonna be able to fund the whole season. So they were like well we know we have the market base to sell and I think the other thing that was a big driving factor for them in the market was Home video release and things like that So if you look at Star Wars was like we're gonna make a series, you know And they did oh Star Wars made a couple different dumb

television true Yeah, we'll talk about droids like that one day trust us But one of the things I do think that's important to know is that for a lot of fans When it comes into watching orders and things like this, they will have pre-selected things or you know a TLDR of this is what happens in seasons one and two or Start watching at the very end of this season, right?

Or whatever, and pick up in season three. And a lot of that is unfortunately because Roddenberry, who had held onto as much of these rights and retained as much intellectual control over this property as he could, in some people's minds, may have really had a bit of a stranglehold on him. In the 24th century, he wanted protocols to be between,

you know, the main crew member. He wants it to be that like, there's no interpersonal conflict or. Yes. I read about that where it's like, yeah, he's like, humans have, have got over their, their emotions. Yeah. There are quibbles. And it's like, but that's not how you write dynamic television.

It's just not. And even beyond that, Star Trek as a television show is one that is in the sci fi premise for its fantastical, amazing elements. Absolutely. But it uses that. I don't know if you know this, Brad, as a backdrop to talk about ethical, moral issues, social, political issues. Almost better than any series out there. But maybe most notably as a series for that. Right.

Like, so why is it that you would take away one of the easiest linchpins in this character's of one, you know, sex? I guess, okay. And this of another. Outside circumstances could change that, right? From what I understand, or from what I've read, all right? And like, I didn't like read into this, right?

He was saying that like, he thought a good show doesn't need that. I read. All right. And like, I didn't like read into this, right? He was saying that like, he thought a good show doesn't need that. You know, like the show is good enough to where just like the storylines themselves don't need like interpersonal conflicts. We don't need love stories and stuff like that. The plots themselves are enough to carry the show. And like, I kind of agree with him on that, man. I do to an extent. And I will say that I think this show later on free of his hands, holding a grip onto that rule does that right? There are love interests, but they're not driven as a character by those things.

Well, if you look at like most TV shows, like if you think about it, the first, like, yes, I guess most of them surround like one person's trying to like get with another person, like in general, the main character is trying to, you know, fall in love or whatever, but a lot, and a lot of shows, right? Or they're already like, but if they aren't or whatever,

let's just say usually there's some like other theme, right, for the first few seasons. And then eventually it just gets to like, this person's hooked up with this person, this person's getting with this person, there's a marriage for this, there's a marriage for that. Right, the relationship dynamics of characters become more important than the events

of the actual narrative of the show. I can understand, yeah, especially where writing for television goes, 20 years from this, definitely. Yeah, exactly, so maybe he had like a vision there. In a way, yeah. I think he has a very good number of things in mind. But when it comes to writing television in 1986, it may not have been the best idea. Sure. Sure. Definitely. But like Breaking Bad, right?

People say that seasons one and two are a little too slow or just not the best or whatever else. But I want to say one of the biggest themes that really sticks is that big uppercut bang intro of the first episode of the season, right? And then we kind of go through and lead off and then bridge between seasons with a two parter at the end and going forward into the next, right? That's something that will kind of consistently stay throughout our narrative here in TNG. And I really like it as a storyline narrative, right?

I really think it bridges things excellently. And like I said, he initially hired these four writers to come into rooms with him. But like I said, that iron tight grip, because while he may have had the right idea and the right idea in the right direction overdoing it sometimes I think is more of the problem than the idea itself for sure because he rewrote two-thirds of season one what and two of those original four Star Trek writers quit

I can imagine yeah if he's like fuck you guys I I'm gonna rewrite two thirds of your work. Right, exactly. And Star Trek TNG also has the denomination of holding two episodes that not even by today's standards, but definitely do have overtones of racism to them. Really? One really, really directly with Code of Honor in which an alien race is portrayed exclusively by black people.

And when you look at the architecture and iconography on their ship or home planet or whatever it's supposed to be it is you know like neo-tribalist or whatever right it's like stereotypical tribal African but were they doing this to like show that though like was that intentional I think I think like a lot of things it may have been done and I'm not I am not trying to excuse this away. Sure, sure. But as an understanding eye I could see it as like, well you know what? Why don't we just have a planet that's like so we can hire a bunch of African

Americans for these like their trouble because like let's just hire a bunch of black people. Which is like Like they're, cause like, just hire a bunch of black people. Which is like you said, they kind of like. And then they were like, okay, what do we do? Well, let's just get from the coming to America set. I guess like, I could understand it to the extent that they're just like, let's just try to hire these people to do these things and like give these guys a chance or something.

No, I see what you're saying. Like it's bad. That's bad. It is. Yeah, but dude, but yeah, dude, like it's not cool. I mean, yeah. But the other one, the other one is, and it's a bit less, but I do think, I think it has really good intentions. But when you look at the misgivings that people, I don't want to say who look for things like that, but like when you see it, it's hard to not see it anymore. The Ferengi, Roddenberry designed the Ferengi to be like a Romulan race or Klingons, right?

Like an antagonist race for the enterprise crew. And the Ferengis as a race are a statement on crass capitalism, late stage capitalism, right? Like hyper capitalism. are a statement on crass capitalism late-stage capitalism right like hyper capital but they have really really big ears and noses and like leprechauns or wait no like Jews people believe that Ferengi's have elements of anti-semitism associated with them. Listen, I never really thought that

other than the stereotypes of Jews, right? Which is not cool. But like, I was like, oh, that's why, cause they're greedy. And then I was like, oh, but they have big ass noses and shit too. Like it's, I think it is supposed to be more than just they're greedy.

Just like, what's his toes in Star Wars? The slave trader in Star Wars, Episode One. Oh, yeah. He's got a big. Yeah. He's got like that accent. He talks like, yeah, like they have these kind of. Yeah, I never would. Like, OK, when I watched it, I did not associate Jewish people with it at all I guess if like you feel like searching for maybe subconsciously but exactly I never thought it either And then I saw it and I'm like I

Don't know I Think a lot of it is in like the ugly propaganda depictions of Jewish people classically, right? Like they all have that. Yeah, that's true. Yeah, very true. Like the Borat defiction and the stuff. Yeah, yeah. A really kind of problematic element to season one's writing was the development of Tasha Yar, who is like the tactical officer. you know, unfortunately though, she really didn't feel fleshed out as a character and by the end of season one said that she was going to leave and they just kind of like unceremoniously kill her off. She will come back, but like she directly attributed the writing of her character to

being why she left. But there were spats with producers a little bit later that kind of point to some sexism and things like that. Yeah. Because it was the f***ing 80s, 90s. Yeah, I can imagine. Absolutely. But as Riker actor Jonathan Frakes remarked, and I do agree with this, at this time TNG

was taking risks and a lot of these things paid off. As example, the Ferengi, although maybe problematic in some eyes, is a well beloved Star Trek race to this day, right? I'm not a Trekkie, or like, yeah, I'm like, I had no problem with them. Ferengi's have kind of persisted as far as I've been able to ascertain as well. Yeah. Like we said before, Data's love of Sherlock Holmes, the holodeck, Data's evil brother of lore, and in the first moments of the double-length pilot, we see the inclusion of the character

Clu. And these episodes feed the series overall for like continuity, but also just bits and pieces of lore that are going to get picked up in Voyager and Deep Space Nine and are pulling back on threads that happened way back in the sixties as well. That is the one cool thing is they all kind of connect. And if I'm not mistaken, like isn't like the big bad of every series like at the end they become good and then like they're it. The Klingon Empire does get to peace with the Federation and that carries out throughout here although there's plot lines that try to disrupt that at different points as well. And then like, but not, I would say no though because like then you have like the uh the Romulans who like have the conspirians and things like that yeah you're always gonna have

like yeah that's true yeah there's just so many factions at play and then like rogue elements within it like within season one they find a conspiracy to take over the Federation of Planets I'm definitely gonna watch the first season like, like maybe even started tonight. We'll see. And I do suggest overall that you watch all seven seasons of this, but I can understand why, like, maybe this isn't where you start, but regardless throughout its initial season offering about an average of 10 million homes.

Watch this week to week as it aired. Wow. Yes. A show examining morals and ethics, the convergence of thought and matter, artificial intelligence and its capabilities of being considered equal to human- Oh man. Average 10 million homes in mid to late 80s America.

I bet you it didn't really shape a lot of mine things exactly. Yeah, like a lot of acceptance and stuff came from this show. I guarantee it. And then reality TV became the biggest thing on television 10 years later. And look where we all know. Yeah, it's unfortunate. Let me grab my dopamine machine and scroll around on Facebook. We're gonna skip ahead a bit here.

By the time we get to the end of season four, right, TNG had continued up and down. Even Dr. Crusher allegedly being fired for being critical of Paramount and writing of the shell. That's odd because she's complaining about sexism and not like some of the racist s***. Yeah. But yeah okay fair enough it's fair to be critical of season one everybody does it. The writers strike of 88 had shortened season two and adding whooping Goldberg as a reoccurring character positioning the Borg as long-term important figures in the mythos, unrest

with the Klingons, the return of Dr. Crusher at the beginning of season 3, and some could argue this is where you need to watch the beginning of the series, right? Just start at season 1, like what? Just start at season 1. I agree, but I'm just saying there there's a number of people who are like watch the last three episodes of season two and go forward I mean, I'm dead serious. That's crazy. That's good I've never heard of a series where people are well the office a lot of people say the office There's tons of now. Oh, it's the first time don't start till season three. Don't get that. Yeah, I guess

Yeah, keep it this time or quit after season four. But you gotta know the backstory. That's even worse. You know, yeah. Watch half this. We also have some relevant discussions about AI and its role and data-centric plots really kind of start with Measure of a Man, which is one of the best works of science fiction overall. It occurs in season three, but you know, the offspring in season four, I believe.

Ron Berry has taken a step back at the end of season three like we were talking about and You know by the end of season three the Borg has captured Picard and dealt the Federation its worst Military loss in a significant amount of time. I believe the ship count is 39 really, but it is like a the ship count is 39. Really? But it is like a transformative moment. And like when they spin off for Voyager or Deep Space Nine, the head of that crew will have witnessed what happened that day and like that. Like it is, I say a forever changing moment that happens. He's rescued off at the very early beginnings of season four and this affects him. It's really getting into its stride and you get more and more different things that kind of continue on. Like although there's rest within the Klingon Empire, it gets to the point that

Worf actually has to like let go of his duties and join up with the Klingons to defend the Empire and things like that. It gets to a point as well where Romulans start to bring on a lot of different espionage details and even though there's an uneasy peace with the Kasparians there becomes like this double ended espionage tale that runs out throughout portions of the series. There's just so much of this that I. Yes, seven seasons. I mean, absolutely. I even by the point in season six, which a lot of people

am like this is prime Star Trek TNG. We're like at the big finale points where they're going into the 1900s and Mark Twain is catching parts of a conversation. Yeah, see this, I thought so. There was like a time where they like goes back in time and stuff, right? The 1900s.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, okay. Even though my younger self was really kind of misinformed about this, I feel for a long time because I used to call this C-span in space, right? And there are a lot of times that this episode turns into a courtroom drama in space or whatever it may be, right? Like there are a lot of- Yeah, that's what I was saying.

Yeah. Yeah, you're a critic and and elements of this thing but like but those things are riveting and and compelling and informative to the human experience and As I grew and matured with age I think I watched more and more that I never knew was inspired by this Learned from more and more people I never met that were directly inspired by and in love with this. And to this day, unfortunately I've never seen it. And when you asked me to cover this, Brad, I was a little intimidated, but now. I found myself really, really intrigued.

So my suggestion for all of you out there is check out Star Trek T and G and this universe goes on Voyager, DSpace9, Enterprise and then eventually to this day on all access and things like that they're doing Picard discoveries ending this year. Yeah. The lower decks may have ended already I'm not sure but absolutely man Check out more Star Trek because I know I will be soon. Yeah, I definitely will be, too. Like I said, I'm probably going to watch the first season or start watching it again. I don't know if I'm going to watch the newer stuff is more Star Wars. I will say that I have watched.

Yeah. I mean, that's it. It's bad, but it's not. Yeah. No, but actually, man, thank you so much for covering this because you just like sparked my Reinterest into this I need to like I'm definitely gonna probably binge this series and and thank you Orange River Red Letter Media Thank you guys for the like 12-hour Did they deal with any cannibals, per chance? I think there's an episode where there's two races

that Rikers, like, trying to, like, help... Okay. ...fettle a dispute with or whatever, and at the end, like, they even at one point capture Riker and they're like, "'Oh, s***, sorry, wrong species.'" Oh, yeah. And then, yeah, like, why wouldn't you court-martial them and s*** like oh sorry wrong species yeah like why wouldn't you

court-martial them and like that point but even beyond that at the end the other race is like leaving and they're talking to Tasha Yar or whatever I think and they're like oh yeah we're about to go have this big reptile for dinner and one of the other diplomats is missing and yeah I guess Paramount got a shit ton of letters like why the fuck did you let that guy eat that guy? Yeah. It didn't really happen everybody it's okay it's a joke. Well I mean the SXJ joke about it though. But it will really eat your heart for the Sun God. I'm not gonna like get too crazy but yeah there's some kind of

graphic stuff we just talked about great kind of graphic stuff just right there but yeah anyways let's get into the Aztecs. So the Aztecs or the Triple Alliance or the Nahuatl speaking people were a group of three city states that formed an empire in the 15th and early 16th century. So they were weren't around very long, like a hundred years, like well the empire right. But after that, because of that they were conquered by the invading Spanish conquistadors. I hate them, they're bad, but I also love the history of them and I think it's a really cool sounding word. One of these days we're going to talk about different conquistadors because I don't want this to be too dark you know like I mean and not saying those episodes are gonna be dark either but it's more of a

celebration of Aztecs. Yeah I just want to talk about the Aztecs because they're really cool people and everything like that. So the name Aztec actually comes from the Nahuatl word, Eztlan of Jaylan. I'm hoping I'm saying these words right, but like I'm probably gonna mess up some obviously, you know, these are some hard, to me, the like Native American, especially Mesoamerican natives, their languages just are like so hard for me, man, because it's just like a huge like bunch of different consonants together and stuff. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I don't envy it. I've said this before. But you know, like that was probably, you know, to them, English is probably crazy,

because it is crazy. But anyways, it's said to be really hard to learn. Yeah, yeah. But this name, the word Aztlan, it means White land or land of white herons, or the place of herons. And this probably heartens back to their northern Mexican origins. It's thought that they actually came from the northern plains and deserts of Mexico. So like that today would be like Juarez or what like? I think so like the northern Mexican plateau like that whole general area like their capital is what Mexico City is now That's where their capital was. So yeah, no one for one dope. Yeah, so it's central Mexico kind of too. Yeah Well, that's where they get they started in northern Mexico, right? That's where like their group originally formed it, right?

That was like early like nomadic times. They were like hunter-gatherers at this time, right? That was like early, like nomadic times. They were like hunter-gatherers at this time, right? So they're really, we don't have too much like really about Aztecs at all. Like we do have a good bit, but- They're more like a tribe at this point than a society. Yeah, exactly. So like, man, the Spaniards really wiped out a lot of their history, especially because they were so centralized. And they were, you know, they're an empire for for only a hundred years at that time you know so like yeah I mean they were around for more of that but like yeah like a centralized they're also called the Tenochka or the Mexica where you know the name Mexico comes from and it's actually the name derived from mezzlaia pan I hope I'm saying that right which is a mystical name but they gave for Lake Texcoco, which

this lake will come. Yes, this lake, I don't think is actually even a thing anymore. Like it's not even, it's just, you know, like it's all. It's a city like actually like, because Mexico City, it's huge. Mexico City is huge. Let's just put it that way. So yeah, there is no more lake in Mexico City. There was a lake at that time, though, that was connected to multiple other lakes.

I guess there's some small ones. There's Texcoco. Yeah. Okay. It's actually to like the east a little bit of Mexico City if you look up Texcoco. This area was like the capital city known as Tenochtitlan which that had like pyramids and everything there. When you think of like you know the Mesoamerican things you think of like the pyramids and all that like that's where that was you know

there was other cities and whatnot that had that, but like this was the capital city and it was like a pretty big city. This wasn't some like, you know, like they weren't hunter-gatherers at that time. You know, like by the time they had their capital, they were like, it was a well-established empire with like, you know, full economy. Right. It's a city state, right? Essentially. Yes, it was a city-state. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. So this actually Happened around like the 12th century. It started around the 12th century should I say so like it's actually kind of this is the medieval period Right. This is what we just talked about with the Byzantines and stuff. Like this was like around that time this is when they've these hunter-gatherers started migrating south into central Mexico.

At the time, the big rulers in the area was a civilization known as the Toltecs. Their capital was at a place called Tula. I'm sorry, Kyle, I didn't look up exactly where this place was. No, you're okay. My bad. No, it's all right, because I usually like to do that. I do kind of figure you might know the shorthand. One of my favorite things in books when I'm reading books is having a map at

like the beginning of her ad, especially in fiction books, just so I can get like a token and yeah, exactly. Like it's the, ah, man, love that. But yeah, so these Toltec people though, they were advanced too. Like at the time, I mean, this is the 12th century. Like, yeah, they sound familiar I was gonna say that too, but like not enough that like I know they're not in sieve, right? But like exactly

I'm just saying like I've heard the name but like they don't ring to me like Aztec Mayan Inca But they are that right? They are a Native But like they don't ring to me like Aztec, Mayan, Inca, but they are that, right? They are a Native America as in North America, Mexican thing. Yeah, okay, yeah. Yeah, these are the same people. Like, I mean, this is the thing.

Like when I talk about all these empires, it's really just the same kind of like group of people. I mean, obviously they're different people, but like if you take over an area, I mean, yeah, like if you take over an area, you know, like, I mean, yeah, like if you take over a somewhat like close area to you, it's going to be essentially, I mean, like, yes, gene pools can be, you know, more restricted and stuff, but still, yeah, it's not like they're going across the sea. So anyways, around the 12th century though, as these people, the early Aztecs were coming down,

which were actually called the Chichimec, I think, is where, what researchers think, should I say, was the original Aztec people, right? These people called the Chichimec. They probably didn't end the Tolmuk civilization. It was probably some other hunter-gatherers or some other nation or city-state around that area. But they just kind of took advantage of them being destroyed. So they came in once the Toltecs, once Tula got destroyed, that city got destroyed, they kind of settled on the

ruins, not on the ruins, but like, you know, around. But legend has it that one of their gods named Huitzilopochtli, I hope that I'm going to say that this is the God of War. That's the first only time I'm going to say that name. And he's the God of war from here on out. So, right. Yes. So with the god of war, they told, uh, he told the elders then that this wasn't their permanent home and they have to keep on looking until they see an eagle perched on a noble cactus with a serpent in its beak.

And if you look at the Mexican flag, that's on the Mexican flag, Mexican flag. But yeah, so they kept looking right. And from there they went on a pilgrimage. And this is like, so I didn't look at the exact like day that was supposed to have happened, but at least like, you know, 25 years because in 1325, right, we're talking, you know, we're going, this might be over a hundred year journey. It kind of sounds like Moses to me in a way, you know, it's almost like they go on this like pilgrimage to try to find their homeland. Is that 40 days and 40 nights though?

Or that's Jesus. That's yeah. I think it's like a while. Yeah. I'm not sure. Yeah. But they go on a long journey. Let's just say that.

And they finally land upon Lake Texcoco. And like, this is the legend, right? How they founded the city and stuff. So maybe it actually didn't happen, but eventually like it did happen obviously because they're there Like we've noted multiple times like once you get to a body of water Civilization Springs sure so like yeah, I'm the leader. I'm like oh that eagle. Yeah Yeah. If I'm the leader, I'm like, oh, the that eagle. Yeah. With the snake. There it is, guys. That's a sub shot.

And apparently they found this eagle on this cactus on this island on. Even better. So they're like, well, we got to set up, you know, I mean, I guess tire was one we were talking about Alexander, but like, usually you don't set up. Yeah, right. And yeah, I guess on a lake, you know, set a city up on a lake. That's true. On an island on a lake next to know, set a city up on a lake. That's true. On an island on a lake. Next to the lake. Yeah, next to a lake.

Yeah. But so they set up on this island, right. And from there, they kind of just like settled in. And that was Tenochtitlan. That was the like the beginning of the Aztecs, like the Aztecs. The origins. That's your season one. Eventually, there was an alliance. But, you know that at that point they saw that eagle right they built a temple at that location and then like there were smaller islands around that that like they started building on right and we'll

talk about again they're on an island and it's not a big island so how are they supposed to grow their crops right? Yeah. And I'll tell you that in a minute but but Tenochtitlan continued to grow and establish power. So like over the next 100 years, eventually they didn't have wheels. That was like really the wheels and metal because there wasn't really like good places to get metal. Ford steel. Yeah. So they used obsidian blades, which like that is what limited them. Yeah, we'll talk about those in a second too. Yeah

around 1428 to 1440 a ruler named Itzcoatl ruled the city and He ended up forming an alliance with two of the neighboring cities, right? And this is where the Triple Alliance comes from. Right Right I was gonna say this is your alliance. Exactly yep and these two cities were Texcoco and Tlacopan. So once these guys were united there's really like no power in the area that could match like this newly formed alliance right this is two of like the bigger city states in the area and from that now they're like the solidly the Aztecs and Tenochtitlan was like the capital of the three, like I said.

And through conquest, they started really taking over this really large area, but also through trade too. It wasn't just through conquest. Like they were, yes, they were known as like these brutal savages, like in accounts and stuff. We'll get into the end, like we started about the whole like human sacrifice, cannibalism, whatnot. But they did a lot of training too though.

Like they were, they're people too. Like they weren't just like these bloodthirsty animals. Right, it's influence of culture. Exactly, yeah. And they came to rule over an empire over 80,000 square miles or 207,000 square kilometers. So like a big, yeah, like a really big area, right? Most of Mexico, yeah. And how populated is it technically? So this was like, okay Well to no chip on itself covered about five square miles or 13 square kilometers at its peak and it was it estimated around 140,000 so like it doesn't seem like a lot but at that time like that's bigger than

Anywhere else the most densely populated city in history of Mesoamerica Like that's bigger than anywhere else the most densely populated city in history of Mesoamerica Only the Incas really like match the size of their population of the whole Empire So like the whole Empire like you asked that estimated to be around it was around four to five hundred small city states, right? So pretty big area and an estimated population around five to six million people So like it's yeah, like that's a good bit. There was a king and then like there was a bunch of like lords, I guess. I guess you could call them around that, like pay tribute to him, you know, essentially. Yeah. Yeah.

And that's what I mean. Like this is why when I said earlier, like these people came in and like took over, they didn't really like you take over, but it's not but you're not changing much. You're just changing who you pay taxes to, essentially. They did mix, obviously. But yeah. So like I was saying earlier, they were adept at warfare, but the trade and especially their agriculture made them really the powerhouse that they were. And the reason why their agriculture was so great was because of the intensive gardening style that they had. And that was made possible from the soils that came in to the lake from the mountains

and stuff, the mountains in the area, washed out all the nutrients and sediments and everything and deposited into this lake. And what they would do and how they would grow crops, right? Like, this is the craziest thing to me. They would dredge the lake, like the shallower parts, right? And build up these raised beds, essentially, on the lake because they're on an island, right? They're on an island on the lake.

Right. And they started building up all these raised beds, you know, expanding across the city, expanding out the city, and all these raised beds, you know, expanding across the city, expanding out the city and made these super rich, perfectly irrigated beds to grow all their crops on. Oh my god. Yes.

So it's two birds, one stone. You're giving yourself plots to go out on, but the island is also kind of expanding because you're building these right off the edge of the island. Yeah, you're essentially exactly. They're like of the island. Yeah, you're essentially exactly They're like expanding the island. Oh my god I mean in other populations, I don't know if they've done exactly this, you know, but they've explained like I know like the Netherlands they've like built a bunch of like land, you know, or even Venice they have Venice, right? Yeah

Yeah, yeah, dude, like it is so crazy and they're doing this. What are they doing? They try to drug. I mean, just like Wooden tools. Yeah. Yeah. They're just like, you know, again. Yeah. Like it's insane, man. Yeah. So like it's almost aquaponics, right? Where you use like the fish poop and all that. Yeah. when I was wondering, is that lake water funneling in there? Yeah, all that. That's what I mean. The irrigation, right? Like it's like they have it all irrigated. Like the lake water is watering the crops. So like they don't even have to worry about water, like droughts and things like that. I mean, maybe they had to worry sometimes if the lakes were low, if it got too low, right? Yeah. How the f**k that gonna happen? Exactly. And even at that, you just transfer some out, right? Yeah. You just collect, gather, and spread. Like, f***, that's dope. It is. It's crazy. So these things, they're called the chinampas and floating gardens is what it translates to. And like, they did this across like not just that lake, but like there was a series of lakes. But I mean, it was mostly at Tenochtitlan. But like they did employ across not just that lake, but there was a series of lakes. It was mostly at

Tenochtitlan, but they did employ that method in other parts of the area. There's these lakes that I'm looking at the map. There is still some lakes. I don't know if it's the exact ones that I'm talking about right now, but there was a series of them that connected. It was almost like a chain that they could transport all their goods through natural canals connecting the lakes. I was going to say canals. Yeah, and artificial ones that they built. They also built canals that connected lakes and all that. So they make these other awesome, beautiful, rich soil that they can just grow things, multiple crops in a year, and just transport out. This is why they became this crazy empire.

You know, they were able to like, if you can feed your population really well, you're gonna be, you're gonna have that advantage, especially hundreds of years ago and everything. Yeah. I mean, and in general, like at this time, food and shelter are really the only things in your Maslow-Hariarchia needs, right?

Yeah. Well, I mean, no. Ain't nobody worried about hierarchy of needs, right? Yeah. Well, I mean, no. To the extent of like what governess can provide for you, right? Yeah. Well, let's talk about the government. Yeah. So it's not really like exactly understood what the like how the government worked. Like exactly.

But they do know that there was like these divisions of tribes in the empire within the city and outside of the city called Kapuli or big houses. And some of the scholars think that these were like family units that were point to more like a more of an egalitarian form of society, right? Some more of like, you know, kind of like a socialist society in a way, you know, like everybody like trades and barters and everybody's like, they're sharing, but really, I like the planetary yeah just

like TNG yeah yeah but really like I mean there was definitely a social hierarchy right there was like the farmers and there was the nobles right because there was a king and if there's a king then there's nobility and the APM nobility yeah and like I mean maybe in the surrounding areas it might have been more egalitarian it definitely was right but like in the centralized area there was the king and it was more like I said earlier, it was probably like a monarchy with a feudal type system where there's minor lords in the area that collected tribute to pay to the king himself, right? And then they would kind of keep some of that tribute for themselves.

And that's how they... Yeah. And that's not to say though that there wasn't like a huge political organization though. There was courts, there was though, that there wasn't like a huge political organization though. There was courts, there was tax collectors, there was even mail and other civil services. So like these aren't savages. Like I said, this is like an advanced civilization. This is like, yeah. Absolutely. Exactly.

And like the Romans, the Aztec religion was secretistic. So that means that it brings other gods into their pantheon as they encounter other religions, right? So the Romans did that too, like with the Greeks, right? You know, like they're, oh yeah, this, the Greeks were like that as well with Alexander when he went over to Egypt and they're, you know, Zeus was this God that was actually over, you know,

they worshiped, they're like oh yeah your God that's Zeus but yeah yeah but they had like man I started looking there's literally like actually Wikipedia was if you go to the Wikipedia for the Aztec gods it's like this gigantic there's like over a hundred at least you know and I know and I can't I'm obviously not gonna talk about all of them but I'll talk about some of the big ones like I said the god of war wait see poachy the wheat zero poach Tilly I said it twice the god of war and then there's toro to you which is the

god of god of the Sun the Sun god like you spoke about earlier, and Talalak, which is the god of rain, and Quetzalcoatl, which is the feathered serpent. And I think he might have been the one. It's pretty familiar. Yeah. If I'm not mistaken, he's the one with the whole why they thought Cortes was a god. They thought he was Quetzalcoatl. But yeah, he's the feathered serpent and he's the god of vegetation, which we'll talk about Cortes another day, but yes.

And he's actually closely associated to Tualoc, who, like I said, is the god of rain, so the god of vegetation and rain. So they still relied on rain, obviously, but they had that crazy irrigation system still. This religion and a lot of religions, actually, if you go through time, and someday I might cover this, but if you go through time, religion in general takes a specific, it evolves in a specific way. You start out worshiping the sun and then you start worshipping like things on the ground and then you start like Personifying the deities. So at first they're just like an abstract thing then they become like human like, you know Maybe they become half human half animal like in Egypt or whatnot or here

And then after that they become fully human and then after that, they become fully human. And then after that, they become from a polytheistic to fully human like the Greeks or whatever, or they look fully human. And then they become monotheistic and then that's where we're at right now. I mean, if you look at so many different religions throughout history, that's kind of the process or the progress a lot of them take. The trajectory, yeah. Okay. So they're at that point right now where they're, you know, they're at the Egyptian point. That's where their religion, that's where their evolution was at. And at that point, there was a lot of human sacrifice. If you look at a lot of places throughout the world, at that point, you know, when they're at

that type of religion, there was a lot of human sacrifice going on for whatever reason that's what happened at that time And and I'm sure as a lot of other practices of religion were of the day There was a lot of fasting. There was a lot of offerings. There was a lot of manifest. Yes There was tons of it was a lot of things that in practice either doesn't happen or has a complete different context in practiced religion today. Exactly. So like when you say sacrifice it does super sound Indiana Jones culty. Yeah, cuz these people like I mean it was like It's like if if we don't give one random person away all exactly

They literally believed if they do not sound like the gods Craved blood they have to give blood to them or our city will get destroyed if we do not give the gods these sacrifices Locust next year Steve you need to give us your first born, dude Locust next year Steve you need to give us your first born dude Exactly the Spaniards made it like and then you'll even see like we've you like watch like the history channel stuff on the Aztecs Like they'll talk about these sacrifice like crazy and they did do can sacrifice don't get me wrong They sacrifice people but it wasn't like the main theme of their culture. It wasn't like everybody was just bloodthirsty. Let's go and kill people. Yeah. Oh, we do it Thursday night. No, it's yeah. You know what I'm doing Thursday night. Sacrifice like a yearly holiday stuff. You know, like it was like to appease the

gods. Like that. I mean, of course, like that is obviously crazy. Like nowadays in a modern society to hear about that and to think about that is crazy. I guess they would like mix blood of the victim into like flour and make you know food or eat it I guess. So they were cannibalistic in some ways. There's reports of that I guess or like yeah you know like engravings of it. I don't think they ate the heart they just presented the heart. So what they did is in one of the ceremonies, because there was a bunch of different ways that they sacrificed people. But one of the ways they sacrificed people, and the one you see a lot, is they'd bring the victim up to the top of a pyramid temple and they'd put him on the stone altar on top. And then they'd spread the victim out and then a priest would take

this sharpest obsidian blade and these obsidian blades are like as sharp as like a surgical razor right like they're like these black crazy looking volcanic rock blade yeah when I was at my cult last year and I had mine oh wait I said too much we don't talk about God I told you I. I know, I'm sorry. Anyways. So the priest would take his obsidian blade and he would slice the chest open and then quickly tear the heart out while it was still beating and like hold it towards the sky, towards the sun or well, push the victim's body, I don't know if they kicked it, but they'd push it down the pyramid steps and at the base there is this stone called the Koyoshakui stone and this stone was called that because there was this whole legend where the God of War's

sister who was Koyoshakui and she died at the base of a mountain and like you know fell down and got killed and fell down the mountain. So they're redoing this ritual that was the like that you know they're reinterpreting this ritual to honor the gods and that's why like or you know that was one of their rituals. But there's also like other sacrifices to honor the gods like mostly to the god of the war and in the Sun God But there was this one that I read about which is kind of crazy man, which You know the god of rain like I was talking about they required Tears of the young to you know satisfy him right that the god of rain needed tears of the young so they would like take

Young you know young boys and like they've sacrificed them they end up killing them but on the way they'd make sure they cried a lot right yeah exactly you know so you got a torture of a make cry really yeah so yeah it was kind of yeah there's some messed up stuff but yeah so I mean I don't I don't know why I wanted to end it on this part. I'm sorry. There was other ways I could end it.

And I'm just like, I just, yeah, this is where my research ended. I'm like, okay, I'm gonna, I don't know, yeah. Let's just say it, like, unfortunately, in a lot of the media depicted for a very long time, like you were saying it man, like that's ripped straight out of Indiana Jones, you know, ripping off that ever beating heart and lifting it to the sky. Exactly.

Like there is some truth to that kind of crazy stuff. Like, you know, and like it was ritual sacrifice. Like that's, unfortunately that's what happened around. And because we react to it in the way that we do, it becomes a trope within us displaying tribalism because we don't understand it or whatever it may be or whatever else. Exactly. And then it becomes like miss,

I don't want to say misappropriated culture, but to an extent like it is because it becomes our media trope instead of being a Real religious of yeah, like anytime you're in Mexico at sepia and all that. It's got that sepia filter on it Well, I I mean I think a lot of that is because you're not actually in Mexico and you have to make it look more You know more desertness than it actually is. That, you know, I think, right? Like if it's clear, open blue sky, it doesn't look like harsh conditions,

which Mexico is probably typically portrayed in. No, definitely. I was trying to like this, but no, like serious. It is like, I mean, they're like, they were a very interesting civilization. And no, I don't want to like, that was a part of it, though. That was a big part of it. But like, it was it's crazy that like, I mean, we're gonna get into it, I'm going to talk about Cortez probably pretty soon. And we'll get into like, how they like what, how quickly and like, what happened

to them afterwards? It's, it's crazy. But yeah, that's how we're going to talk about the Incas and the Mayans. So we will definitely. Yeah. I want to cover all three of them. I've always I love them before my love of Rome. Like, yeah, yeah. So like we'll definitely cover cover all three of them for sure. Yeah, I definitely am looking forward to that. And with that, we look forward to you reaching out to us on our social medias, Facebook, Instagram, YouTube and on Patreon, where you can get early access to our episodes and you can find them uncensored. Are we missing any of these social medias? I feel like we've got them all.

Oh, I see. All right. You're doing a bit. Yeah. I was going to say we don't them all. Oh, I see. All right. You're doing a bit. I was going to say we don't have an axe. We don't have an axe. Oh, yeah. Well, f*** Twitter. Elon Musk. Exactly. We do have an axe, but we don't use it. No, and we won't. Don't ever hit it up because we ain't ever going to hit it up again.

We ain't going to see it. Yep, pretty much. Make sure you give us a rate and review on your podcast platform of choice. Not only does it help out the show, but it helps us find new listeners. For Brad, I am Kyle, and we will see you again here soon. See ya. Ah, brain soda.