Canadian True Crime - 52 The Crimes of Russell Williams - Part 2

Episode Date: October 1, 2019

[ Part 2 of 2 ] The interrogation of Russell Williams continues, and after that comes the fallout from his crimes.Find out more about:The Mysterious Mr Epstein - a new podcast from Wondery that answer...s all your questions about Jeffrey Epstein. Listen now at Wondery.fm/tcrime.Jim Can't Swim - YouTube Criminal Psychology - analysis of Russell Williams interrogationThe Mob Reporter - YouTube channelRedhanded Podcast Thank you for supporting my sponsors! The codes can be found here:canadiantruecrime.ca/sponsorsCredits: Research and writing: Gemma HarrisAudio editing: Erik KrosbyEditing, narration, music arrangement, audio production: Kristi LeeDisclaimer voiced by the host of Beyond Bizarre True CrimeTheme Song: We Talk of DreamsAll research sources and music credits are here: https://canadiantruecrime.ca/episodes/2019/9/12/51-russell-williams Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

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Starting point is 00:00:00 My name's John Weir. You don't know me, but you're gonna, because I know the people that have been watching you, learning about you. They know you've done well for yourself, that people like you and trust you. Trust you. Now imagine what they're gonna do with all that information that you've freely shared with the whole world. Now imagine what they're gonna do with all the information you have at it. Yeah, I'll be in touch. Radical starring Kiefer Sutherland, new series now streaming exclusively on Paramount Plus. Please note, this is part two of a two-part series.
Starting point is 00:00:37 If you haven't listened to part one yet, definitely go and do that before you listen to this one. It'll make more sense. This podcast contains course language, adult themes, and content of a violent and disturbing nature. Listener discretion is advised. Where we left off, 27-year-old Jessica Lloyd was still missing. She hadn't turned up for work, and her friends and family were frantically looking for her. Tire tracks and boot prints had been found in the snow next to her house. The police set up a checkpoint to take a look at the tires of all vehicles driving past. Russell Williams happened to come through the police checkpoint,
Starting point is 00:01:24 and the tires on his Nissan Pathfinder matched the tire tracks found in the snow near Jessica Lloyd's house. Russell lied to police about hurrying home because he had a sick child. It didn't take the police long to find out that Russell and his wife, Mary Elizabeth, didn't have any children. He was asked to go in to Ottawa Police Headquarters for questioning. When Detective Sergeant Jim Smith explained exactly what the police were investigating, two break-in enters with sexual assaults, the murder of Corporal Murray Franz Como, and the recent disappearance of Jessica Lloyd, Russell started off cocky and confident. He gladly removed his boots so they could be compared to the boot prints found near Jessica's house.
Starting point is 00:02:15 He was then told that his tires matched the tire tracks, and his boots matched the boot prints. He was told he could contact a lawyer if he wanted to, but he declined. At this point, his bravado is clearly wearing down as he contemplates the situation that he's found himself in. This is Christy, and you're listening to Canadian True Crime, Episode 52. Please note, these clips have been cleaned up and periods of silence have been cut out for time-saving purposes, but the messages stay the same. Russ, maybe this would help. Can you tell me what the issue is you're struggling with? What's the issue you're struggling with?
Starting point is 00:03:22 There's a bunch of long silences here where Russell looks down deep in thought. It's hard to believe this is happening. Why is it hard to believe? It's just hard to believe. Detective Sergeant Smith then told Russell that his opportunity to have some control over the situation is quickly expiring. You're not a psychopath, are you? he asked. He then went over Russell's options. He said that the police were now at his house, the search warrant had been executed, and his wife knew what was happening.
Starting point is 00:04:11 Jim Smith clarified a few more details before bringing the conversation back around. That's fine. Now let's get back to the issue. What's that? So you talk about perception. My only two immediate concerns from a perception perspective are what my wife must be going through right now. Yeah. And the impact this is going to have on the Canadian forces. Where do we go? Russ, is there anything you want from me? Is there anything you want me to explain?
Starting point is 00:04:45 Is there something missing that you're struggling with that I can shed some light on for you? I'm struggling with how upset my life is right now. Russ, what are you looking for? I'm concerned that they're tearing apart my wife's brand new house. So am I. But if nobody tells them what's there and what's not, they don't have any choice. He takes another long silence where he's clearly deep in thought. He hasn't admitted to anything yet, but he hasn't denied it either.
Starting point is 00:05:25 It's evident that his cocky approach and thought pattern is changing as he contemplates the seriousness of the situation. So what do I do on Russ? I put my best foot forward here for you, but I really have. I don't know what else to do to make you understand the impact of what's happening here. Do we talk? I want to minimize the impact on my wife. So do I. So do we do that?
Starting point is 00:05:58 Well, we start by telling the truth. Okay. So where is she? You got a map? Is she close to where she lives? I've got maps of that general area. Russell showed them on a map where he dumped Jessica's body, saying that she was about 40 feet from the road and had been out in the open for just over a week. Over a week? Was it fairly quick from the time she left?
Starting point is 00:06:31 Friday night. Friday night? Yeah. So where was she between Thursday night and Friday night? In Tweet. With you? Yeah. How long was she alive for?
Starting point is 00:06:44 Almost 24 hours, not quite. Okay. Russell? You know the right thing here. Russell nods and they shake hands. Okay. Well, again, my interest is in thinking about my wife's life a little easier. Her family as well.
Starting point is 00:07:08 He's only scratched the surface of his confession, but it's coming and his wife remains at the forefront of his mind. You know how you want to say something? Just that this place, my wife, it's been a dream for a better part of the year, so I'm keen to get them what they need and so they can leave her alone. Okay. We're going to do our best to keep that as low key as possible, okay? What do you want to talk about? It's a pretty wide open alley. Yeah.
Starting point is 00:07:41 What do you want to know? Well, do you want to work forwards or backwards? Doesn't matter. Why don't we start with Jessica? How does that start for you? I saw her in her house on her crib in the Woodenstone Addings, and I noticed she wasn't there Thursday. So I got into her slip around, then in the left, I noticed she'd come home, so I went back in through the back patio door while she was sleeping. Throughout his confession, Russell's tone of voice is professional, upbeat, and friendly.
Starting point is 00:08:30 He explained that he didn't know Jessica. He said he first noticed her when he was driving by her house and saw her through the window jogging on her treadmill. This claim would later be questioned in court because Jessica's house was reportedly set back from the road and it would be difficult for the driver of a vehicle going by at highway speed to notice the detail of a person on a treadmill through the window. Russell continued, saying that he went back to the house and parked his SUV in the nearby field. When he confirmed she wasn't home, he let himself into her house to scope it out and make sure she lived by herself. The date was Thursday, January 28th, 2010. Confirming that she did indeed live alone, he hid in her backyard waiting for her to get home. Jessica had been out with some friends that night.
Starting point is 00:09:29 When she got home, Russell watched her under the cloak of night from his vantage point in the backyard. He watched as she got ready for bed. He waited for some time until he was sure she must have been asleep and then gained entry through the unlocked rear sliding glass patio door. According to Russell, he stood next to her bed until she woke up. He was the first thing Jessica saw when she opened her eyes. He was ready and she was sleepy. He tied her up with rope and put duct tape over her eyes. He took photos of her in the hallway in her sleepwear and more photos of her on her bed with her arms tied together and tied to the headboard.
Starting point is 00:10:22 Russell forced Jessica to put on her underwear and pose for more photos in numerous positions. He cut her clothes off her body. He raped her repeatedly. He then placed a black zip tie around her neck and continued to take more photos. After three hours of these repeated assaults, Russell dressed Jessica in her clothes and bundled her out of the house and into his Nissan Pathfinder. He was still blindfolded as he forced her to be his passenger back to his tweed cottage. It was now in the early hours of the morning. When they arrived at the cottage, he made Jessica take a shower getting in with her to wash her down. Eyes still covered, he said he took photos and filmed her on video in the shower with her arms bound and the zip tie still around her neck.
Starting point is 00:11:18 Jessica told Russell the water was hot on her arms. They had been restrained so tightly that the lack of circulation had caused them to turn purple. Russell told the police that he let Jessica sleep for a few hours. When she woke up, she became very upset, telling Russell that she didn't feel well and needed medical assistance. She repeatedly pleaded with him to take her to the hospital. His response was to tell Jessica to relax and take deep breaths. He was continuing to video everything. On camera, Jessica started to have a seizure, a convulsion, which Russell watched and filmed, telling her to relax and not to bite her tongue.
Starting point is 00:12:04 She begged him to remove the ties around her hands and take her to hospital, but he refused. The seizure lasted for around 15 minutes, while Russell just sat there and watched. And when she finally recovered, she told him it was due to stress. But he didn't care. He told her that before letting her go, he wanted to rape her again and take some more photos. She was still blindfolded and hadn't seen his face, so she likely believed him. Russell continued to rape Jessica repeatedly, photographing her at various points and videoing it. He ordered her to pose and lingerie, and he took more photos.
Starting point is 00:12:48 She still had the zip tie around her neck. As the hours passed, Russell continued to lead Jessica to believe that he would let her go. So, she cooperated with him throughout the ordeal, doing as he asked and promising that she wouldn't look at him. When she felt that she'd done something wrong, she profusely apologized. Anything to keep him on side so he'd let her go. By now, it was well and truly morning, and Russell had the problem of having his day job to get to. He emailed the wing administrator at the Trenton base to advise that he wouldn't be coming in, giving the excuse that he had the flu. He also instructed that if his wife Mary Elizabeth called, not to let her know.
Starting point is 00:13:38 He continued to spend hours sexually assaulting Jessica, forcing her to pose for photographs, again forcing her to wear lingerie. He filmed with video. This lasted the entire day. He then gave her back her clothes to get dressed, blue jeans and a hoodie. He gave her some food. He gave her the impression that she was now being released. He took a photo of her blindfolded with a plate of fruit on her lap. By this stage, it was after 8pm on Friday night.
Starting point is 00:14:16 Before they left the cottage, Russell taped Jessica's mouth shut. As they walked to the front door, he struck her on the back of her head with a flashlight in front of the fireplace, knocking her unconscious. As blood from Jessica's head injuries pulled on the tiled floor of the cottage, Russell told police that he strangled her with a length of rope. He took more photos of her lifeless body and then moved her into the garage. Russell drove back to Trenton base where he stayed that night. He gave the same reason for killing Jessica as he did for Murray France. He thought if he let her live, police would trace the evidence back to him based on his previous attacks. Early the next morning, he flew to California to lead a unit on a training exercise.
Starting point is 00:15:10 He returned to his office on base later that day and then drove back to the house in Ottawa that he shared with his wife. He stayed with her for three more nights, knowing that the body of Jessica Lloyd was stashed in the garage of their cottage at Tweed. On Tuesday, Russell returned to Tweed to dispose of Jessica's body. He bound it with duct tape wrapped in a blanket and wrapped her head in a towel. He then drove about 15 minutes out to a secluded area where he dumped Jessica's body behind some rocks on a field. He told police that he then drove back to the cottage. He cleaned it inside and out as well as his pathfinder in an effort to remove evidence of what he'd done to Jessica Lloyd. The next day, Russell travelled to Toronto for a meeting with other officials to discuss security arrangements for the upcoming G20 summit in June, which he was helping to coordinate.
Starting point is 00:16:14 Believing that she would be released at the end, Jessica Lloyd's terrifying ordeal at the hands of Russell Williams had lasted for 19 hours. One of the last things she said to him was that she wanted her mum to know she loved her. Russell is asked about Corporal Murray Franz Como. I went in there a couple nights before she came home, looked around. As you'll recall, Corporal Murray Franz Como was a military flight attendant at Trenton Base, her dream job because she loved the army and she also loved to travel. Russell Williams admitted to the OPP that he'd met Murray Franz on a previous work flight. They had a conversation where she told him that she lived alone. As the wing commander of the base, he of course had access to her work schedule and personnel file.
Starting point is 00:17:21 He simply looked her up in the system and got her address. When Murray Franz was away on her work trip to Asia, Russell parked his car in a field nearby and broke into her house through an open window in the basement. He filed through her personal possessions, taking photos of himself wearing her underwear. He posed in photos with her sex toys and next to her Air Force uniform and then left the house, taking the underwear with him. The same underwear that Murray Franz later accused her boyfriend of taking. A week later on November 22, 2009, Russell drove from Trenton Base and parked outside Murray Franz's house in Brighton. As he arrived at her house, he said he could hear her speaking on the phone in her bedroom. He had a kit with him, a kill kit, and entered through the basement window once again.
Starting point is 00:18:22 He hid near the furnace for around 30 minutes with a ski mask on, waiting for Murray Franz to finish her phone call and go to bed. But she didn't just go to bed, she realized that she couldn't find one of her cats. She was trying to get her cat to come upstairs and the cat was in the basement that seen me and was succeeded on me in the corner. She couldn't get the cat up so... The feline was in fact staring directly at Russell Williams in his hiding spot. She came downstairs trying to get the cat and... She saw her cat in the middle of the room staring into the darkness. Her cat was looking at something.
Starting point is 00:19:07 As Murray Franz went to pick the cat up, the man wearing the ski mask walked out of the darkness from behind the furnace. She didn't recognize him. In his confession, Russell said he lunged at her. Murray Franz turned to run but tripped over a duffel bag on the floor and fell. Russell told police he viciously and repeatedly beat Murray Franz in the head with a flashlight to subdue her, causing her to bleed onto the floor. He then bound her wrists and tied her to a steel jackpost in the basement. He put duct tape over her mouth to muffle any screams or cries for help. He got his camera out and took photos of her terror.
Starting point is 00:19:50 Going upstairs, he broke a key in the front door lock to prevent anyone from entering the house. Using steak knives from the kitchen, he secured a sheet over the bedroom window and returned to the basement. Removing the tape from Murray Franz's mouth and untying her wrists, he began pushing her towards the stairs. Russell detailed to police how Murray Franz started screaming, so he smashed her head into the wall and then she slumped to the floor. The intruder took further photos of a naked, unconscious and bleeding Murray Franz before carrying her upstairs to the bedroom. He laid her on the bed and wrapped a towel around her head to stem the bleeding, covering her eyes and mouth with just enough room for her to breathe through her nose. Russell secured the towel with duct tape and retied Murray Franz's wrists behind her back. Over the next few hours, he raped her repeatedly, taking photos during the attack and filming it on video, taking breaks to change camera angles.
Starting point is 00:20:58 Murray Franz slowly regained consciousness and he repeatedly told her to shut up. She struggled as his assault on her continued. At one point, he went and checked the front window of the house to see if anyone from outside was approaching it. This was only a tiny chance, but Murray Franz had to take it. She ran to the bathroom to try and escape, but she didn't make it. He caught her, smashing her head into a photo on the bathroom wall before dragging her back to the bedroom. When Russell got Murray Franz back on the bed, he placed her underwear on top of her and took more photos before raping her again. Russell told police he attempted to suffocate her with a pillow, but she resisted. Despite still having her hands bound with duct tape, Murray Franz Como fought back aggressively with everything she had.
Starting point is 00:21:54 She ended up on the bedroom floor in an attempt to negotiate with her assailant. Murray Franz promised her attacker that she wouldn't tell anyone anything and begged for her life. All of this was captured on video. Russell told her to stand up. At this point, he assured her that he wasn't going to kill her, but he did the opposite. In a final, vicious act, he covered Murray Franz's nose with duct tape to stop her from breathing. She asked him to please have a heart, but Murray Franz Como died from asphyxiation at the hands of Russell Williams. He continued to take more photos of her. He then washed her bed sheets and stole more of her underwear. He left her body on the bed, twisted in a duvet. The entire gruesome scene would be discovered by her boyfriend, Paul, who later came to the house to check up on her.
Starting point is 00:22:54 Russell Williams left the house just before dawn through the rear patio doors which he left unlocked. He drove directly to Gatineau near Ottawa for an 8.30am meeting with senior military officials. Russell took his shoes and the rope with him, discarding them on the drive along the way. Russell told police the reason he killed Murray Franz when he hadn't killed any of the other survivors of his attacks was because he was worried that if he let her live, she would go to the police and they would likely connect her attack to Russell's other crimes. When police searched Russell's home, they found evidence on his computer of screenshots taken of news websites reporting on Murray Franz's death as well as her Facebook dedication page and police websites. After confessing to the murders of Jessica Lloyd and Corporal Murray Franz Como, Russell was asked about the other two women starting with Jane Doe. Some dude here, mostly just my weight on top of her, had her take off her pajamas, took some pictures, took some of her underwear and left. And, is it a woman?
Starting point is 00:24:46 Now he's talking about Laurie Mazzacotti. This thing kind of do, running through the back of the house. Not much different at all. I did have the flashlight that time later with the flashlight. Same thing here but not correct. It's a dude with my weight. After closed, took some pictures and left. As you'll recall from the last episode, Jane Doe was one of the earlier victims, a new mother who'd recently given birth. Russell broke into her house in September of 2009.
Starting point is 00:25:31 He told police he didn't know Jane Doe, but that he'd first seen her while out on his boat on Stoco Lake and he thought she was cute. He admitted to breaking into her residence, waking her up, subduing her, pulling down her top, touching her breasts, taking her pants off and taking intimate photos. He told police he stole a shirt, five pieces of underwear, a sheet and a baby blanket, because he'd touched them and did not want to leave trace evidence at the scene. He stored the items at his tweed home, eventually disposing of them at the dump. He also downloaded the photos he took of Jane Doe onto his computer. The day after the attack on Jane, Russell put on his public mask and attended a publicity event on base for a Guinness World Records strongman attempt. And that night, even though Jane had fled her tweed residence, Russell returned to the empty home and stole more of her underwear. He said that he also returned again later in the week.
Starting point is 00:26:43 Just two weeks later, tweed resident Laurie Massacotti fell asleep in front of the TV and woke up to find a man smothering her under a blanket. As you'll recall, he terrorized her for a few hours, again, letting himself out afterwards. Even though Laurie only lived three doors away, Russell told police he didn't know her before the attack, although he did know she lived alone, which is why he chose her. He said that after his attack on Laurie, he went home, went to bed and went to work the next day as usual. Why do you think these things happen? Maybe I spent much time thinking about that. About why? Yeah.
Starting point is 00:27:34 But I don't know the answers. And I'm pretty sure the answers don't matter. I'm pretty sure the answers don't matter. Well, let me ask you this. Is it two lived, right? Or two died? What was the difference in your mind between? Well, the attention of the first two God was very much focused on, obviously, or for obvious reasons, pictures I took. So anybody else telling stories about pictures, right, would have been a fairly straight line. Okay, but when this thing happened with Marie-France, did you believe that you were already a suspect for what happened in Tweet? No.
Starting point is 00:28:48 So what were you concerned about? Well, the case, I was pretty sure that, you know, she was serving military, right? It would have been difficult for investigators to ignore that connection. Early the day following his confession, Russell would take investigators to where he dumped Jessica's body. The autopsy would show that her cause of death was strangulation. And autopsy photos show evidence of cuts to Jessica's head, bruises and cuts to her arms, and abrasions on her legs and back. Male DNA was also recovered from Jessica's fingernails and vaginal swabs. During the 10-hour police interrogation, the details Russell Williams gave when confessing to terrorizing the women of Tweed, Ottawa and Belleville were disturbing enough.
Starting point is 00:30:04 But almost as shocking was the fact that they were committed by a man with a personal and professional history that most would consider prestigious. An elite pilot who'd risen to the top ranks of the Canadian military in a very high profile position. A man who was seen to be in a stable, loving marriage. Those who knew him described him as pleasant and professional. There was nothing in his background to suggest that he was capable of committing such crimes. During his interrogation, Russell told police where they could find evidence in his Ottawa home. This included digital camera cards containing thousands of photographs, including images of Jessica Lloyd and Murray Franz Como as well as surviving victims Jane Doe and Laurie Massacotti. Russell told police how it all started. What happened before the murders?
Starting point is 00:31:06 He said his first break-in occurred in September of 2007, just over two years before he murdered Murray Franz Como. According to Russell, he simply walked through the unlocked door of his next-door neighbour's house in Cozy Cove Lane in Tweed. The family had a 12-year-old daughter and considered Russell and his wife close friends of the family, with Russell often taking the kids out tubing on nearby Stokeau Lake. He knew that the family was away from their house for the weekend. And then, three weeks later, he let himself in again. Russell took photos of the 12-year-old girl's bedroom, including her underwear, drawers, closet and bed. He also took photos of himself in various poses, including standing in a pair of female underwear showing his penis, standing in front of a mirror with a pink piece of clothing hanging from his erect penis, or laying on the bed naked masturbating with what appeared to be at least some of the pink clothing.
Starting point is 00:32:13 In several of the photos, it was clear he had ejaculated. Some of the Ottawa break-ins occurred within walking distance of Russell's former home in Orleans. Around the same time, he continued breaking into houses in Belleville and Tweed and stealing women's underwear and other clothing. He told police he targeted homes where attractive young women lived. He added that his age preference was women in their late teens to early 30s. The majority of break-ins occurred in the middle of the night. Russell also admitted to breaking into more than one house per night on six different occasions. He broke into one property on Cozy Cove Lane a total of nine times.
Starting point is 00:33:03 In most instances, none of the residents were home. When Russell returned to his homes in Tweed or Ottawa, he would place the underwear he'd stolen in boxes or bags. When he accumulated too many items, he would dispose of them by taking them to fields just outside of Ottawa and burning them. Russell told the police that he continued to break into residences in Tweed and Ottawa from March of 2008 to August of 2009, continuing to take graphic photos and stealing pieces of underwear. In numerous instances, residents were completely unaware that their homes and privacy had been violated in the most intimate way. By the summer of 2009, months before he would murder Murray Franz Como, Russell's behaviour escalated and he began taking more risks. The week before he assumed command of CFB Trenton Base in July of that year,
Starting point is 00:34:11 Russell stood in the backyard of a Tweed home at 1.30 in the morning for approximately half an hour, watching as the female occupant showered inside. He said he stripped naked, broke into the house, stole a pair of the women's underwear from her bedroom and left. This was the sixth time that Russell had broken into that house alone. Russell was not initially forthcoming with all of the information, though. According to the book Camouflage Killer, The Shocking Double Life of Colonel Russell Williams by David A. Gibb, the police discovered another incident after they'd found a document about it hidden within Russell's complex file folder system on his hard drives. It was about a neighbour's 14-year-old daughter. The document stated, quote, I've been wanting to get into her bedroom for a long time, had screen out and window open a few weeks ago,
Starting point is 00:35:14 but that time it was quite late and the dogs were barking in the basement. This time the back porch was open. After I'd collected what I wanted, I'd stripped naked in the backyard. I was jerking off, preparing to go back in and get a shot lying on her sheets when her dad came home and she followed within 10 minutes. While I was in her room, I took the liberty of moving her guitar slightly so I could see her bed from outside. I watched her lie down and within 10 minutes turned out the light. Unfortunately, I didn't catch her changing. Maybe tomorrow night, in bed. When confronted with the note, Russell claimed he'd forgotten about it. The girl was just 14 years old, much younger than the late teens to early 30s that he said he was interested in.
Starting point is 00:36:10 Investigators asked Russell what he was preparing to do to the daughter, had her father not come home. Russell denied wanting to re-enter the home, but refused to answer the question further. The night Russell confessed, he wrote a letter to his wife. It read, quote, Daarest Mary Elizabeth, I love you. I'm so very sorry for having hurt you like this. I know you'll take good care of sweet Rosie. Rosie was, of course, their cat. Toward the end of the interview, Detective Sergeant Smith left Russell alone with a pen and paper and suggested he might want to write apology notes to his victims. He did. He wrote notes to Jane Doe and Laurie Masaccotti. He also wrote one to Jessica Lloyd's mother, Roxanne,
Starting point is 00:37:10 and Murray Franz Como's father, Ernest. His notes sounded sincere enough, which was well within his capability as a high-ranking military officer skilled at communication. But the notes likely felt like salt in the wounds for the survivors and family members of the victims. The story is about a woman who was killed by a gun. My name's John Weir. You don't know me, but you're gonna. Because I know the people that have been watching you, learning about you. They know you've done well for yourself, that people like you and trust you. Trust you.
Starting point is 00:37:52 Now imagine what they're gonna do with all that information that you freely shared with the whole world. Now imagine what they're gonna do with all the information you have at it. Yeah, I'll be in touch. Radical starring Kiefer Sutherland. New series now streaming exclusively on Paramount Plus. Six years ago, I needed some kind of online hub to manage all the non-podcasting tasks that come with podcasting. I chose Squarespace because it's an all-in-one platform that seamlessly helps me achieve multiple goals. It's important to have a website that looks good, and I was inspired by Squarespace's wide selection of clean and modern templates. They can be easily customized with pre-built layouts and flexible design tools to fit your needs.
Starting point is 00:38:58 And you can even browse the category of your business to see examples of what others have done. I use the built-in blogging tools to create a new page for each episode, and there are so many intuitive options from embedding an audio player so listeners can stream episodes to scheduling posts to be published on a certain date, an easily moderated comment section and automatically displaying recent episodes on the homepage. Every Squarespace website and online store includes SEO tools to help you maximize your visibility in search engines. And I love the powerful insights I can get from the analytics tools, helping me better understand who's visiting the site, where they came from and how they're interacting with it.
Starting point is 00:39:42 Do you have a passion project or business idea or something to sell? Go to squarespace.com.ctc for a free trial, and when you're ready to launch, use offer code CTC to save 10% off your first purchase of a website or domain. That's squarespace.com.ctc with offer code CTC and get your passion project off the ground today. The police had a confession, and the next task of gathering evidence was well underway. They compared the DNA profile Russell gave from the attack on Jane Doe to that obtained from Russell after his arrest. They found that he could not be excluded as the source of the DNA. Russell admitted that his crimes against Jane Doe, Laurie Mazzacotti, Marie-France Como and Jessica Lloyd were recorded on two hard drives stored at his Ottawa home.
Starting point is 00:40:56 He said he kept everything deeply hidden in an intricate system of subfolders, protected by multiple layers of passwords, so that his wife would never discover evidence of his criminal activities. The search warrant for his Ottawa and Tweed residences authorised police to seize digital storage items including a blackberry, a Sony digital camera and memory cards, as well as computer equipment. Police also had the power to seize photographs, underwear and baby blankets. When they executed the search, detectives covered all the windows at the front of the house to prevent prying eyes. Inside, they found a meticulous electronic log of Russell's history of offending, including the dates, the locations and the nature of the offences, police reports of his crimes, as well as videos and underwear that didn't belong to his wife.
Starting point is 00:41:56 More than 500 pairs of underwear, bras, camisoles and bathing suits were neatly stored and precisely catalogued. In the basement, police found a box containing bras and underwear belonging to Jane Doe, Laurie Massacotti, Marie France Como and Jessica Lloyd. Police also found a pillowcase in the corner of the garage containing more underwear, including two pairs belonging to children. In the basement ceiling, the police found two 500 gigabyte computer hard drives. And that was just the Ottawa residents. At the cottage in Tweed, 300 pieces of lingerie were found in a green duffel bag, as well as more sex toys, photos of Jane Doe, duct tape, zip ties and various items of photography and video equipment. Russell had stored around 3000 photos of his crimes just on his computer. The digital camera storage cards contained even more.
Starting point is 00:43:06 Photos and video footage were recovered of the sexual assault and murder of Marie France Como, including photos Russell took of her after her death. When it came to Jessica Lloyd's assault, police recovered 325 photographs and four hours of video footage. No video footage was found of her actual murder, but like Marie France, Russell had taken photographs of Jessica's body after she died. A written document and graphic photos were also found detailing Russell's previous attacks on Jane Doe and Laurie Massacotti. Hundreds of other still images on Russell's hard drives that were time and date stamped, depicted him in the bedrooms of other residences, completely naked. There were photos of items he stole from houses, pictures of him masturbating either next to, with or on, women's underwear and sex toys, including underwear belonging to girls as young as 9 years old. Often, he was shown laying on their beds, surrounded by their stuffed animals and little girl keepsakes. There was a photo of him rubbing a girl's makeup brush on his penis.
Starting point is 00:44:29 Another one showed him with a pair of underwear that belonged to a 15 year old girl. The underwear appears to have a blood stain on it and images show Russell kissing and licking the stain and then wearing the underwear over his head like a mask, with the stained part covering his nose. And more photos showed him ejaculating onto the underwear. According to the book A New Kind of Monster by Timothy Appleby, the police also found child pornography on his computer. There were multiple photos downloaded from the internet of pictures of adolescent girls in sexual positions. As a result of Russell's confession and the evidence collected, he was implicated in 82 instances of attempted or successful break-ins to a total of 48 residences between 2007 and 2009. The number of instances is higher than the number of residences because quite often he would break into a residence on more than one occasion. 23 of them were located in the Tweed and Balville areas, while 25 were located in the Ottawa suburb of Orlins, which was where he lived with his wife at the time when he wasn't at the Tweed Cottage.
Starting point is 00:45:56 As you'll recall from the last episode, Russell liked to take walks around the neighbourhood very late at night. He told Mary Elizabeth that his back was bothering him and the walk helped soothe it before bed. Staggeringly, only 17 of the 48 homeowners whose homes were broken into reported this to police. And of the total 82 offences, 61 of them were not detected or reported until after Russell's arrest. In many cases, they just didn't realise that someone had broken into their homes or that anything was missing. The Balville police and the OPP had teamed up to thoroughly investigate the 17 residences that had previously reported the break-ins, but they had no suspects until Russell Williams confessed. Further police investigation revealed that contrary to Russell's stated age preference of late teens to early 30s,
Starting point is 00:47:02 it seemed that the sole or joint targets of 13 of the homes he broke into were girls under the age of 18. Russell Williams was charged with two counts of first-degree murder in the deaths of Jessica Lloyd and Corporal Murray Franz Como. He was also charged with two counts of forcible confinement, two counts of breaking and entering, and two counts of sexually assaulting Jane Doe and Laurie Massacotti. But despite cooperating with police and confessing to the vicious murders, assaults and break-ins, Russell refused to acknowledge his possession of child pornography. It seemed that was where he drew the line. Jessica Lloyd's family were given the heartbreaking news that she'd been murdered and that a suspect had been arrested. But sadly, it was through the media that they discovered who he actually was. Hundreds attended Jessica's funeral, crammed into the funeral home and spilling outside, holding candles and signs to commemorate the 27-year-old.
Starting point is 00:48:20 Jessica was described as vibrant and strong-willed, with a profound zest and love of life. Her friends said she was just an all-round beautiful person. Cousins described her brilliant green eyes, her witty humour, and how much she loved living in the country. The funeral was also attended by members of the military. Russell Williams' biography had been removed from the Department of National Defence's website the day after his arrest. A new acting-based commander was appointed, and he attended Jessica Lloyd's funeral. As you'll recall, Corporal Marie-France Como was third-generation military, joining her father and grandfather in service. After the announcement of Russell Williams' arrest, her family would speak of their shock and disgust.
Starting point is 00:49:20 Her father, Ernest, told the media that his confidence was now broken. Quote, this is a man in the position of authority, a base commander. You ask yourself, how did he get that far? How come he wasn't detected? This hurts, and it will for a long time. Marie-France's aunt told the Ottawa citizen, quote, I saw Marie-France grow up. She was full of plans, her beautiful smile and enjoyment of life. How could one not love this child who became a beautiful woman? Then this monster destroyed everything.
Starting point is 00:50:03 36 hours after his confession, Russell was visited by the senior chaplain from Trenton Base. Russell told the Padre that inside the piano in his tweed cottage were two videotapes and a digital camera memory card containing even more images and footage of his victims. Russell Williams was remanded to appear in court on March 25, 2010, regarding the murder and sexual assault charges. So what did his family think about all of this? As you'll recall, he was extremely upset when his mother Christine and his stepfather Jerry Sovka decided to divorce back in 2001. Russell's younger brother Harvey said that the divorce caused a deep rift between himself, Russell and their mother Christine. In 2008, the year before Marie-France Como was murdered, Harvey and Christine had extended an olive branch to Russell, but it didn't do much good. After hearing about his arrest, Harvey released a statement to the media saying that it was alarming and distressing news.
Starting point is 00:51:23 Quote, We really had any contact until two years ago when my mother and I tried to find a way to repair the family rift. He went on to say that they'd only had minimal contact with him since then and that they were shocked and appalled to learn of the crimes. And what about Russell's wife, Mary Elizabeth? We know from his confession audio that she was the first thing on his mind as he was confessing. He worried about her becoming inconvenienced as the police mentioned they were going to search their houses in Ottawa and Tweed. He gave a straightforward confession and cooperated with police to minimize the impact on her. Little did he know that even as he was speaking those words, the police had already arrived at his house. When Russell was arrested, Mary Elizabeth went into hiding and moved out of their house in Ottawa.
Starting point is 00:52:26 The next month, March of 2010, the couple came to an agreement about splitting their real estate assets. Russell would take over sole ownership of the cottage at Tweed and Mary Elizabeth would take ownership of the Ottawa residence in exchange for $63,000. But by early April, Russell's mental state appeared to be in a state of decline. Media outlets reported that he wrote a suicide note on the wall of his cell using mustard, stating that his affairs were in order and that his feelings were too much to bear. Russell then tried to kill himself by wedging a cardboard toilet paper roll stuffed with foil down his throat. He didn't succeed and as a result he was placed on Suicide Watch. When he came off Suicide Watch, he went on a hunger strike. Later that month, Russell was charged with the additional 82 offences of breaking, entering and theft. The next month, May of 2010, survivor Jane Doe launched a $2.45 million civil lawsuit against Russell and Mary Elizabeth.
Starting point is 00:53:47 Jane stated that Russell's attack on her was, quote, harsh, vindictive, malicious, horrific and reprehensible. She claimed that Russell fraudulently transferred the Ottawa property to Mary Elizabeth in an effort to protect his assets from future potential lawsuits. In June, Mary Elizabeth filed a sworn affidavit denying Jane's allegation. She stated, quote, On or about February the 8th, 2010, I became aware of criminal charges against my husband. The revelation of these charges has been devastating to me. Mary Elizabeth went on to say that while Russell did transfer his interest in their former home, there was nothing untoward or suspicious about the transaction. She stated that she paid valuable consideration in return for her husband's share and that the timing of the transfer was not unusual given the crisis facing the marriage. This was the only public statement she would ever give about the situation.
Starting point is 00:54:57 Mary Elizabeth later offered to settle Jane Doe's civil suit out of court. After the police had finished with the Ottawa residents, Mary Elizabeth moved back in. But not before complaining to police that they'd scratched up her hardwood floor, she was later given a check for $3,000 to cover it. When she returned home, her next door neighbor told her he was sorry for what she was going through. Mary Elizabeth reportedly apologized for having put the neighborhood through such scrutiny. The next month, Russell appeared in court after a delay following his lawyer's request for more time to review documents released by the prosecution. His next court date was set. As you'll recall, Jane Doe's identity was protected under a publication ban because she was the victim of a sexual assault.
Starting point is 00:55:55 The other survivor, Laurie Masaccotti, originally did as well. But as Russell's case was making its way through the court system, she had successfully applied to have the publication ban lifted so she could speak publicly about what she'd been through. In a media interview, Laurie would say that she didn't want to judge and wanted to forgive. Quote, He let me live. It was like he didn't want to kill me. I always look at the good in people. I can't speak for any of the others. I can only forgive him for what he did to me. And now he has to live the rest of his life in a prison cell. I despise him, but I can forgive him because of the simple fact that he let me live. And that's what I wanted most.
Starting point is 00:56:42 And I have to be able to forgive to move on. At his pre-trial hearing on August the 26th, 2010, Russell Williams appeared before the Ontario Court of Justice in Belleville where he waived his right to a preliminary hearing. That's a court proceeding where the prosecution's case is tested to see if there's enough evidence to go to trial. There was definitely more than enough evidence. On October the 18th, 2010, the sentencing hearing began at the Superior Court of Justice in Belleville. Russell Williams had pleaded guilty to all charges but one. According to the book A New Kind of Monster by Timothy Appleby, Russell had bargained a plea deal of sorts. He still had his wife on his mind and didn't want the case to go to trial,
Starting point is 00:57:41 so was willing to plead guilty to the rape charges, the murder charges, the forcible confinement and breaking and entering charges. But the catch was regarding those child pornography charges that he wouldn't acknowledge, let alone plead guilty to. So to spare the expense of a trial, the police agreed to drop those charges in exchange for guilty pleas to the others. The sentencing hearing lasted nearly four days. Russell spent the majority of the time staring at the floor, refusing to look at anyone, least of all, his victims and their families. In court, the crown prosecutor presented the evidence, including some of the photos that Russell had taken of himself in women's underwear, and evidence regarding the break, enter and theft charges. Outside court on the first day, Jessica Lloyd's brother Andy answered questions from the media.
Starting point is 00:58:39 He was asked why his mother Roxanne was carrying a framed picture of Jessica. I've got to bring my sister's face back into it so it's not all about him and it's not all about what he's done, and try and remember there is families that are very angry at what he's done. That same day, General Walter Natynczyk, Chief of Defence Staff of the Canadian Armed Forces, issued a statement on behalf of the forces in reaction to Russell's guilty plea. He said that the tragic events stunned all Canadians, and none more so than the members of the Canadian forces. Quote, today's guilty plea is the first step in a healing process that will no doubt take many years. Upon formal conviction, we'll be in a position to officially begin the administrative process
Starting point is 00:59:36 that will lead to Colonel William's release from the Canadian forces. While we are confident that justice is prevailing, we recognise that this will not diminish the pain and anguish suffered by the families, friends and communities so directly affected by these tragic events. We extend our deepest sympathies to those affected, and I reaffirm my commitment to promoting the well-being of the men and women and families of the Canadian forces. This sentencing hearing continued. Another victim told the court that she had $4,000 worth of French and European lingerie stolen after Russell broke into her home. The crown prosecutor also presented evidence regarding the attack on Laurie,
Starting point is 01:00:26 including photos taken by Russell. The court heard that prior to his assault on Laurie, he had broken into her home on two separate occasions. Evidence was heard and photos shown regarding Russell's attacks on Jane Doe, Marie-France Como and Jessica Lloyd. The court heard that in carrying out his attacks, Russell carried with him a duffel bag containing pre-cut lengths of rope, a digital camera, camcorder, tripod, a large flashlight, duct tape, a knife and long plastic zip ties. Evidence was presented that in the days following Marie-France Como's funeral while police hunted for her killer, Russell Williams was busy attending a number of Christmas parties at CFB Trenton Base, including hosting his first Wing Commander's Christmas Ball.
Starting point is 01:01:26 The prosecution ultimately decided not to play the video or audio Russell took of the sexual assaults and murders of Marie-France Como and Jessica Lloyd, choosing to describe the content instead. The footage was determined to be simply too horrific for the court to see. Jessica Lloyd's family had left the court by this stage, choosing not to hear in detail what had happened to their beloved daughter, sister, niece and friend. An edited down version of Russell's police interrogation and confession video was shown to the court. When it came time for victim impact statements to be read, Jessica Lloyd's brother Andy said he'd never imagined anything like this could ever happen. Quote, This case has drawn so much attention that our grieving process is constantly interrupted.
Starting point is 01:02:46 He went on to say that he and Jessica were very close. Quote, Jessica's mother Roxanne told the court that since Jessica's murder she had to take antidepressants and medication to help her sleep. Quote, She added that the reason she was there was to make sure that Russell Williams was properly sentenced and to achieve justice for Jessica. The family of Corporal Marie-France Como were private people and declined to make victim impact statements or speak at length, allowing the Crown to make a statement on their behalf. Marie-France was described as a ray of sunshine and Russell Williams has broken their lives. Quote,
Starting point is 01:04:03 In closing, Crown Prosecutor Lee Burgess told the court that what makes everything more despicable is that Russell was a man who was above reproach. Quote, And no doubt he exploited that to help divert suspicion from himself. No doubt he laughed at us as he lived his life as a community leader by day and a serial criminal by night. He went on to say that Russell betrayed both the community and the military. The Crown said that Russell Williams is one of the worst offenders ever in Canadian history. Quote, The Crown declined to seek dangerous offender status for Russell on the basis that it would only prolong the suffering of the victims and survivors families.
Starting point is 01:05:27 The Crown's lawyer for Russell Williams during the sentencing hearing claimed that his guilty plea reduced the turmoil of a trial, noting that he cooperated with police and gave a detailed confession, adding that they hoped it might aid in the healing process. Speaking to the court, Russell tearfully read a statement saying he was ashamed and was aware his crimes had traumatised many people. He deeply regretted what he'd done. In handing down the sentence, Judge Robert Scott told the court that while nothing surprised him anymore and that he believed Russell's apology was sincere. Quote, He may be described in the biographical sense as Canada's bright shining lie. Russell Williams' fall from grace has been swift and sure. His crimes have adversely affected this country and this community, all victims alike. Our thoughts and prayers are with all the victims.
Starting point is 01:06:46 Murray Franz did not have to die. Jessica did not have to die. May all of you find the peace that you desperately deserve. 47-year-old Russell Williams was given two life sentences for first-degree murder, two 10-year sentences for the sexual assaults, two 10-year sentences for forcible confinement, and 82 one-year sentences for each count of breaking and entering. The judge decided all sentences would be served concurrently, meaning at the same time. The life sentences mean that Russell will serve a minimum of 25 years before being eligible for parole. He'll be in his early 70s. Judge Scott stated that there is no guarantee that Russell will be released.
Starting point is 01:07:39 The judge ordered that evidence in the form of Russell's digital cameras and the stolen lingerie be destroyed. But the video footage and thousands of photos that Russell took documenting his crimes have been retained for possible review in the event that he applies for parole. As part of his sentence, Russell was required to submit DNA samples to the police data bank and pay a $100 victim surcharge for each conviction, totaling $8,800. In Canada, this money doesn't go directly to the victims of this specific case, but to Ontario Victim Services to help fund various services for victims of crime, including rape crisis centres. Outside court, Jessica Lloyd's brother Andy said of Russell, quote, As long as he dies in jail, I'm happy. It's over with. It's done with. This is the best thing that's happened to our family since this stuff happened. We just want to be normal again. Jessica's mother Roxanne said that she was glad that she saw her daughter's killer crying, quote, justice was served. OPP Detective Inspector Chris Nicholas, who ran the investigation, told the waiting media that as long as he was alive, the photos and videos Russell took of his victims would not be released.
Starting point is 01:09:11 Outside court, the crown prosecutor said, quote, I've been doing this job for 20 years. This is the most awful case that I've ever been involved in. Russell's shocked stepfather, Jerry Solvka, was reported in the media as saying, quote, I've spent my career doing things right and avoiding things that were wrong. But here, I can't figure out what went wrong. As for Russell's wife, Mary Elizabeth, she left the country for the duration of the sentencing hearing on the advice of her doctor. When she returned to Canada, she did not speak publicly about the case. The day after sentencing, the Canadian Governor General David Johnston stripped Russell Williams of his commission, ranks and awards. His severance pay was terminated and he was ordered to repay the $12,000 monthly salary he continued to receive since his arrest, in addition to legal costs. A month after sentencing, in an unprecedented step, Russell's military uniform was burned, his medals were destroyed and the vehicle he used to kidnap and transport Jessica Lloyd was crushed and scrapped. His commission scroll, which was a document confirming Russell's status as a serving officer, was shredded. He also received a lifetime weapons ban and was added to the National Sex Offender Register. Given that Russell had multiple criminal convictions and would be discharged from the Canadian forces, there was no need for a court martial.
Starting point is 01:10:57 Surprisingly, while new recruits of the Canadian forces are subject to a rigorous selection process encompassing a range of testing, no further psychological tests are required when it comes to being promoted within the ranks of the Canadian military. General Walton Natynczyk, Chief of Defence Staff, said he wasn't aware of any complaints filed against Russell during his 23-year career. General Natynczyk noted that while the military regularly reviewed performance of its personnel, it didn't have the resources to put all of its troops through psychological testing. But he announced that military leadership would conduct an administrative review to determine whether vital information about Russell's previous behavior and conduct had been overlooked. General Natynczyk stated, quote, We have a security screening process that goes across government which is updated every five years. It's reliability checks, background checks, military police checking on people. We train them under great rigor and we put a lot of stress on them, but then we have to trust them. In December of 2010, Russell's wife, Mary Elizabeth, commenced divorce proceedings. She requested that her personal financial and medical information be sealed by the court. But in January of 2012, the Court of Appeal for Ontario ruled against the application, stating that Mary Elizabeth's desire for privacy didn't override the public's right to transparent court proceedings.
Starting point is 01:12:46 As late as March 2011, Mary Elizabeth continued to visit Russell in prison. By 2011, Russell had yet to pay the $8,800 he owed in victim surcharge fines, resulting in a debt collection agency pursuing him. And in September of that year, civil action again reared its head. Survivor Laurie Massacotti filed a lawsuit for $7.6 million in damages against Russell, Mary Elizabeth and the province of Ontario. Laurie alleged that the OPP was negligent and not warning her neighbourhood following the attack on Jane Doe, which occurred only two weeks before Laurie was assaulted. Laurie also claimed that when police officers attended her home after her 911 call, they told her to stay partially naked, tied up and under the same blanket that Russell had left her under until the forensics team arrived, which ended up being five hours later. She also said that she wasn't taken to hospital. Her lawsuit alleged that officers described her as crazy over police radio and treated her with disbelief.
Starting point is 01:14:10 Laurie also accused the OPP of initially excluding Russell as a suspect, based on his position as colonel at the Trenton base. In May of 2014, Laurie Massacotti won the right to amend the lawsuit she first filed in 2011 against Russell and Mary Elizabeth. The updated claim included the accusation that Mary Elizabeth was aware of Russell's activities, but failed to report them to police. In August of 2015, Laurie Massacotti settled her lawsuit within the province of Ontario, and in October of 2016, her lawsuit against Russell and Mary Elizabeth was finalised in an undisclosed settlement. The other survivor, Jane Doe, did proceed with her claim seeking $2.45 million in damages from Russell and Mary Elizabeth, and the family of Jessica Lloyd filed for $4 million in damages. In 2012, all of those claimants eventually consented for their civil suits to be bundled together. Two years after that, they settled out of court for an undisclosed amount. The lawsuit against Mary Elizabeth was dropped as part of that settlement. Russell Williams has continually refused interviews to discuss the motivation for his crimes. He was not addressed as having a mental illness, but experts concur that had he not been caught, it was highly likely that he would have killed again.
Starting point is 01:15:58 Russell did tell police that he wasn't sure what triggered this behaviour. He said it began with an interest in stealing women's underwear in his 20s and 30s, but he never acted on it until the initial incident in 2007. Many experts have said that Russell's military discipline helped him to lead two separate lives. But as long as he chooses to remain silent, we will never really know what led the once highly respected and powerful senior military figure to violate and victimise women in the community. He destroyed not only the lives of his victims, the survivors and all of their families, but his impact extends past that too. His wife Mary Elizabeth continues to live with ongoing media and public attention, as does his former neighbour Larry Jones, who was the suspect early on, and ultimately the Canadian forces. Russell Williams was initially incarcerated in the segregation unit at Kingston Penitentiary, which has since closed down. He's currently serving his sentence at the Maximum Security Port Cartier Institution in Quebec, alongside Paul Bernardo and Robert Picton, as well as Michael Rafferty, who killed Tori Stafford and Mohamed Shafir, who masterminded the murder of his wife and three daughters from the Shafir family episode. CBC's The Fifth Estate produced a documentary on the Russell Williams case, revealing that as at 2014 he was housed in solitary confinement. Despite being convicted, incarcerated, stripped of his rank, awards and any material recognition of his service with the Canadian forces, Russell remains entitled to an annual military pension of $60,000 per year. In 2014, retired Lieutenant General Angus Watt spoke to CBC's The Fifth Estate about how the shocking crimes of Russell Williams affected the Canadian forces.
Starting point is 01:18:20 This is a huge betrayal of the profession, of the honour of the military and we take this very personally, the people that knew him, that helped him, that selected him for senior leadership positions. See it as the ultimate betrayal of that honour, and we will never forgive him. The military will move on from the fallout, but the survivors of his attacks will never forget what happened. In a 2010 interview with McLean's magazine, Laurie Masaccotti said that in the early days she assumed that everyone in town was a suspect, and after Russell Williams was arrested, she suffered survivors guilt and spent countless hours in therapy. In a 2011 interview with Dateline, survivor Anne Marsanne Cook said that the fear takes over when she's alone in the dark. It's there all the time, she described it as suffocating. And of course, the loved ones of Jessica Lloyd and Corporal Murray Franz Como will carry their grief and sorrow with them wherever they go, to vital, vivacious women who were chasing their dreams and achieving success, who had their lives snuffed out, far too young. Thanks for listening, and thanks to Gemma Harris for writing this case, and the Mob Reporter Channel on YouTube for use of the clips. I also wanted to direct you to another YouTube channel called Jim Can't Swim. He creates interrogation analysis and psychology videos, and he did a fascinating video analyzing the interrogation of Russell Williams. I will include a link to this particular video in the show notes, but make sure that you check out the other videos on this channel because it's incredibly fascinating.
Starting point is 01:20:26 Today's podcast recommendation is a British true crime podcast called Red Handed, which was recommended to me a few months back. I'm really enjoying this one. Asking the questions that no one else is asking. You can listen to us anywhere you listen to your podcasts. So join us, plug in, sit back and prepare for scares. Thank you all so much. This episode of Canadian True Crime was researched and written by Gemma Harris, edited by me, and audio production was by Eric Crosby. The host of the Beyond Bazaar True Crime podcast voiced the disclaimer, and the Canadian True Crime theme song was written by We Talk of Dreams. I'll be back soon with another Canadian True Crime story. See you then. I'll be back soon with another Canadian True Crime podcast.
Starting point is 01:22:55 My name's John Weir. You don't know me, but you're gonna, because I know the people that have been watching you, learning about you. They know you've done well for yourself, that people like you and trust you. Now imagine what they're gonna do with all that information that you freely shared with the whole world. Now imagine what they're gonna do with all the information you have at it. Yeah, I'll be in touch. Radical, starring Kiefer Sutherland. New series now streaming exclusively on Paramount Plus.

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