Cautionary Tales with Tim Harford - The Father of Space Travel

Episode Date: July 28, 2023

Cautionary Conversation: Did a Nazi put America on the moon? To celebrate the launch of his mini-series on the V-2 rocket, Tim Harford sits down with Pushkin’s resident V-2 expert, Ryan Dilley. They discuss the so-called “Father of Space Travel”, Wernher von Braun, and satirist Tom Lehrer’s musical lampooning of him. A three-part mini series on the V-2 rocket is available now for Pushkin+ subscribers. We’ll be back again on August 4th with a brand new episode of Cautionary Tales on the main feed.See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Do you want to know what it's like to hang out with MS-13 Nelsabrador? How the Russian Mafia fought battles all over Brooklyn in the 1990s? What about that time I got lost in the Burmese jungle hunt in the world's biggest MF lab? Why the Japanese Yakuza have all those crazy dragons at those? I'm Sean Williams. And I'm Danny Goldz. And we're the host of the Underworld podcast. We're journalists that have traveled all over, reporting on dangers people in places.

And every week we'll be bringing you a new story about organized crime from all over the world. We know this stuff because we've been there we've seen it and we've got the near misses and embarrassing tales to go with it. We'll mix in reporting with our own experiences in the field and we'll throw in some bad jokes while we're at it. The only world podcast explores the criminal underworld that affect all of our lives whether we we know it or not. Available wherever you get your podcasts. Pushkin In the final months of the Second World War, the Nazis began to use a dreadful rocket-powered bomb.

It travelled faster than the speed of sound, which meant that you couldn't hear it coming. One moment you were queuing up at a store or enjoying a pint at the pub, and the next moment, well, there was no next moment. It was a cruel, spiteful weapon. Technologically, it was a miracle, but economically and militarily, the V2 rocket was a total disaster for Nazi Germany. How did this terrible weapon come into existence? Why were so many of the people it hurt, not the people you might expect? And what lessons can we learn from the V2 rocket even today?

I'm very excited to introduce my new three-part series on the V2 rocket, in which I investigate the answers to those questions. All the episodes are available now, add free for Pushkin Plus subscribers. But the mini-series was inspired by former and founding cautionary tales producer, Ryan Dilly, the OG producer of cautionary tales. Ryan is also a resident V2 expert. And while I've been able to cover the rocket weapon in depth, I haven't yet had the chance

to geek out with Ryan on the topic. And today, Ryan Dilly joins me. Welcome back to cautionary tales, Ryan. It's so lovely to be back on the other side of the glass in the studio part rather than the cubicle directing you. Yeah, it's because you're no longer the boss of cautionary tales. We can actually get you in front of the mic while you were in charge. This was never going to happen.

We can talk about how you got me into the V2, but how did your interest first start? There are surviving versions of the V2. There were rockets that were collected after the war. And there's one of the Imperial War Museums. So when I was a kid I would go there and I'd see this huge black and white rocket amazing thing. And they cut it out so you can see what's going on inside. Yeah, I mean, it's tall as a house, isn't it? It's 45 feet tall, about 5 feet wide.

And it takes up a whole atrium of the museum. It's three floors up. But I didn't realize this until quite later, that one of the V2 bombs landed, very closely on my great great grandmother actually worked. March 8, 1945, she was a kitchen hand in a cafe next to London's main meat market, Smithfield Market, which is a very grand, beautiful Victorian building, an ancient market which was built on the original land outside the city walls the Romans had built where animals were slaughtered

and still operates as a meat market to this day. It's a nice place. On this day, on the real tail end of the war, this is a month or two before the end of the war, lots of people had heard of rumour that there were going to rabbits on sale. So they went to the market very early to line up because there's obviously rationing and food shortages and just as they were doing that, one of these fearsome V2s landed. No warning, as you said, supersonic speed. The speed and the weight of the rocket caused it to break through the building, through the ground, and there's an underground railway,

which we used to serve the market. And that collapsed and many people were flung into that hole. And there were 110 deaths. Many of them were women and children, just regular shoppers waiting. My family ever talked about this, and I'm sure my great-grandmother was there, probably about 60, 70 yards beyond the blast zone. Yeah.

So not injured. But it was definitely something that came very, very close to changing my family history. It is absolutely extraordinary and one of the things that we discussed in the series is the way that this thing would just come from nowhere and hit almost always civilian targets, because it wasn't accurate enough to really be of any military value. And because it was so random, there wasn't anything they could do about it. They couldn't go to a bombshell. It wasn't like in the blitz earlier, which killed many more people.

You knew you had some warning the bombers were coming, you could go and hide, you could get somewhere safe, but this would just, yeah, you're queuing for rabbits. This is why particularly, it's an interesting weapon. So when it was developed, it was called the A-series weapon. It was the A-rocket. The V comes from German, the Geltungswaffe. So that's kind of retaliation vengeance. And the idea is it's a weapon to terrorize people.

Yeah. Because Germany's losing the war badly by then. Yes. So this is their revenge. But actually, militaries is not a great weapon. In military values, you mentioned that the bombers, bombers would come over, the air-raid sign would go, and all the workers have to get out of their beds,

so that you'd disrupt their sleep and you just drop production the next day, maybe you hit their factory, and you maybe knock out the railway line, the other thing that the Germans would do would drop timed bombs. So a whole street would be closed down while they're waiting for this time bomb to be diffused, and you would kill anyone trying to defuse it. Or it would

go off. So that was a way of disrupting huge amounts of the city over days from one rate. The V2 didn't do any of that. It came along and had huge destructive power. It would borrow itself into the ground and with one ton of the explosion quite deep down, we'd cause huge damage to the foundation for absolute destroy buildings in a way that conventional bombs didn't do. And this is something that we explore in the series and one of the things we also explore is how Germany came to build this thing in the first place. Why did anybody ever think that this was a good investment of resources rather than building

more tanks and planes? And one of the reasons is because the senior engineer on the V2 program was this incredibly charismatic man, Fair enough on ground. Yes, thinking about him, I find him deeply distasteful, and become very angry about him, actually. Yeah. He was born in 1912 into an aristocratic family. They were Prussian aristocracy, so he was kind of a blonde,

head, blue-eyed, kind of perfect German, that people then revered. The Jungkars class, this kind of political and military elite of Germany, the people who really pushed what we think of as being, as being classic Germans, the kind of hill-clicking militaristic Germans. He came from that background. Yeah, and it was somewhat sneering at the Nazis as a bit ridiculous upstart, but at the same time very interested in the Nazi agenda of military domination of German nationalism, that kind of thing would sit very well with Fond Brown's background. You have Fond Brown's father at Unstown, it was a government minister served in the

Vimear Republic. We think of the Vimear Republic as being kind of progressive lefty, but in many ways that there was a respect from of people. Yeah. And he was more conservative. It wasn't all Cabaret's. It wasn't all Cabaret's. It wasn't all I said, nearly. He was a more kind of conservative figure. The Prussian's would have shared many of the views that the Nazis had. Perhaps not the kind of street fighting, ways of the essay or the SS, but certainly they would have shared many of the racist views, many of the economic views. They would have shared a fear of Bolshevism,

that would have shared a fear of kind of international jewelry, that would have shared a fear of Western decadence. So there are many overlaps between their world view. Yeah. And the series is, one of the things that we do is follow, follow Brown along with following the rocket and talk about his journey and his decisions and his moral responsibility for what happened.

So I don't wanna go into too much detail about that, but he does end up in an extraordinary place, which is among other things working for Disney. Yes, I mean, I find that transformation slightly obscene. There's undoubtedly obscene. Yes, but I was looking through the archives. It's quite rare to find people criticizing that. I found a really interesting article written by British

Majinus paper, the Daily Mirror, just after the war, which looked at his situation, going to live in America. And it's very, very critical of it, and makes many other points that I would make today. And these are some of us swept under the carpet in the 50s. I mean, in a nutshell, this guy is an Nazi war criminal. We can debate to what extent he's an Nazi war criminal, but he was a major part of the German war effort.

And now he's making a TV series for Walt Disney about how we're going to go to space. He's suddenly a kind of popular science commentator. It is astonishing. And via Walt Disney and via those appearances and via the public profile, he helped nod with politicians. He became friends with JFK to an extent. I mean, his daughter says that when JFK was killed, it was the most upset she'd ever seen her father.

He went off to his dad and just stayed there and she was told not to go near him. He had a link with him and JFK was instrumental in giving us the fun to get to the moon. Yeah. The moon him and JFK was instrumental in giving us the fun to need to get to the moon. Yeah, the moon shot was JFK's vision and Von Braun was intimately involved in making that happen. He said that that wasn't much criticized at the time.

There was a debate as to what was going to happen to these people. Who would they go to work for? Or maybe they should all just be shot. There is an argument that they should have been an ex-cute for war crimes, but fine. Instead, they go to build rockets, but they could have built rockets for the Soviet Union, for the French, for the British. It could have worked out differently.

Do you think he would have been treated differently by these different post-war powers? I almost certainly think he would have been treated very differently. I doubt he would have been celebrated in the way that he was. He would have never been called a hero by the Soviets if they'd have captured him.

I believe some German scientists did defect to the Russians, particularly, I think, the communist sympathies. And there was this joke when America got to the moon that's because our Germans were better than their Germans. That's the joke the Americans tell us. Yes, the end of the war. And this is one of the things I find annoying

about Third of on Bra. At the end of the war, he sought out the Americans. He had a choice. And I think that the pragmatic choice is the Soviets probably wouldn't treat him very well. He'd have ended up in Siberia living in a gulag, perhaps still doing the same research, but he wouldn't have been a comfortable lifestyle. So the French, I'm guessing after the war, wouldn't have been all that welcoming to

him or accommodating to him. They would have certainly taken him on. So there's another kind of Nazi scientist engineer in parallel who's Ferdinand Porsche, so the famous Porsche car makers. He was very good friends with Hitler. He joined the Nazi party about the same time as Vom Brow and joined the Nazi party. Equally Vom Brow was in the SS and Ferdinand Porsche in the SS. They both came out with kind of slightly grandiose hair-brained technical schemes. He made perfectly usable military kit, of coupe of argons and other cheap type things.

But he also wanted to make a massive, done-retun mouse tank. A mouse tank is a tank for mice? I hope it's a joke. The idea is this massive tank. Like Little John and Robin Hood, it's the mouse tank because it's enormous. Like a cast-long wheels that were

to trundle along and win the war, and obviously it was a complete disaster. And so both of these characters were very, very entwined in the Nazi War of in the Hitler's grandiose schemes. Third and then Porsche fell into the hands of the French and was basically imprisoned by them. They seemed as a walker in the north, all of the same things that he did for Hitler. You could argue that Von Braun did for Hitler, the French imprisoned portion. They wanted him to work for them, but they certainly weren't rolling out the red carpet. Yeah, they weren't putting him on Disney. Yes, when when't putting him on Disney.

Yes. When one of them browns went to the Americans, he also was interrogated by the British. There was a little bit of cooperation between the Anglo-American allies. He said he had a moral duty to give the technology, the terrible weapon he developed, a moral duty to give that to a nation. I think the quote is something like a nation that lives by the Bible, the Americans. Obviously that's in comparison to the Godless Communists. The idea is that he suddenly thinks that's very convenient. Or maybe he's a wonderful question. And then his daughter wants to ask about what was he, what was his views of Christianity? He said, well, he wasn't really, we'd go water skiing on every Sunday morning. So he went to church.

He didn't really talk about God. He was kind of spiritually, but he wasn't. So I think there's a real kind of sense that he claimed to have a more responsibility to deliver this weapon to the Americans. It was okay when he was giving to the Nazis and dropping bombs on all in sundry or doing whatever he did in the factories that made the bombs. But he suddenly had a great moral duty. So I think he was very good at telling the Americans what they wanted to hear and making out that he was a good fellow. One of the things that we explore in the three-part series is early on we're hearing a lot of von Brown's descriptions of himself and then later we start

to hear a more objective viewpoint and you start to see what's going on in a different way. When he did go to talk to the the Brits there is this extraordinary moment where he's been driven through Southeast London and there's a site that has basically been flattened by one of the V2 rockets and he's a bit irritated because they've cleared all the rubble away. And what he really wanted to do was examine the site fresh and he could understand what the V2 had actually done. So there's something very cold there. It's like a scientist examining a rat in a laboratory. Which goes against lots of the other defenses he has.

It's like I wanted to make it a spaceship. I always wanted to go to the moon. I didn't really want to make a weapon. And then that anecdote tells another story. I do have a quote from him, which I find interesting. Because I was saying that he never really expressed regret about what he'd done. And actually I was wrong, so I found this quote,

I very deep and sincere regret for the victims of the V2 rockets, but there were victims on both sides. And I find how, what I find, I mean, who does he mean by victims? The victims are manifold. It's not just people like the shoppers at Smithfield Market and my great-grandmother.

I mean, the destruction of housing stock in the last few weeks of the war, I think one of the figures have seen this 600,000 houses in the southeast, why the damage are destroyed by V2s. Yeah, yeah. My grandparents found it very difficult to find housing after the war, so unfortunately my grandparents had to live in kind of a dilapidated heart that was formerly a kind of barracks, through which disease spread overcrowded unsandary conditions. And those health problems had huge impacts on my family for decades afterwards. So there are kind of a number of victims who wasn't just the necessarily the people who were killed, there are bigger ripples that go through British society, and also these bombs landed in Holland

in Antwerp, Leet, so areas in Belgium, but also there were a number of other victims. The people who made the bombs and people who were involved in constructing the factories and constructing the railway lines and constructing the other machinery that made this weapon possible were often to slave labourers. Yeah. Thank you, Ryan. We will hear more about Fenn of On Brown and a little bit from the satirist Tom Lehrer after the break.

Tom Lehrer, after the break. Do you want to know what it's like to hang out with MS-13, Nusabrador? How the Russian Mafia fought battles all over Brooklyn in the 1990s? What about that time I got lost in the Burmese jungle hunt in the world's biggest MF lab? Or why the Japanese Yakuza have all those crazy dragons at those? I'm Sean Williams. And I'm Danny Gold. And we're the host of the Underworld podcast. We're journalists that have traveled all over, reporting on dangerous people in places, and every week we'll be bringing you a new story about organized crime from all over the world.

We know this stuff because we've been there. We've seen it, and we've got the near misses and embarrassing tales to go with it. We'll mix in reporting with our own experiences in the field, and we'll throw in some bad jokes while we're at it. The only world podcast explores the criminal underworlds that affect all of our lives, whether we know it or not, available wherever you get your podcasts. We're back. I'm Tim Harford. I'm with the founding producer of Corset Nytales, Ryan Dilly, and we're talking about Fairner von

Brown and the V2 rocket. One thing that we didn't get to include in the series was Tom Lara's famous song about von Brown, Tom Lara, many people will know, still with us in his 90s at great a great satirist of the post-war era. And he... I think reflected some of the controversy about, should this guy who built this super weapon be working for NASA? Let's have a little listen to the Von Braun song. And what is it that put America in the forefront of the nuclear nations?

And what is it that will make it possible to spend $20 billion of your money to put some clown on the moon? Well, it was good old American know-how, that's what. As provided by good old Americans like Dr. Werner von Braun. Gather round while I sing you a Werner von Braun, a man whose allegiance is rude by expedience, call him a Nazi, he won't even frown, a Nazi schmatzi, says Werner von Braun. We shall hear a little more of that in a moment. So this was originally recorded live in 1965 for the album That was the year that was. So was he a Nazi?

Well, I immediately want to say yes. I mean, I think he was certainly very culpable in Nazi crimes. I think he was culpable in developing this weapon. I think he began to develop a weapon before the Nazis came to power. As a teenager, he was making rockets. But largely kind of glorified fireworks. They'd be packed with kind of explosive, not hugely powerful rockets.

He was apparently not a good student, but he performed really well at university. He said he got multiple degrees. He got degrees in engineering, he got degrees in physics. So he was a kind of like a, a wonder kind in the perfect sense. And his work was spotted by the army.

They said they would fund his PhD project, which is to make a rocket. And about a few months after the hat, Hitler comes to power and then he's got a choice. Yeah. The reason that the army were funding him wasn't because they were interested in gang to the moon, they were interested in weaponry, and this was the time when the Germans state had

been disarmed by the First World War allies. The rockets were an alternative to artillery because artillery was banned. Yes, and also it was very difficult to have an air force. So lots of restrictions they were trying to get around. The idea that a 25-year-old would suddenly become the darling of the German army. I presume his father, who was a minister in the government at the time, probably would have had a role in introducing

to people and advising him. So Verne von Braun was not an innocent in this. A kind of hair-brained dream. Certainly his behavior throughout his career shows he had political now. Yeah. He wasn't just wandering into things. And by the end of the war, he was a senior SS officer.

This is one of the most evil organisations in the history of human civilisation. Now we can argue and we discuss it in the series why he joined the SS, whether it was because he was absolutely committed to the genocidal goals of the SS or because he wanted to build rockets and he didn't much care about the genocidal goals of the SS if it helped him build rockets that that was fine by him. Let's hear a little bit more from Tom Lehrer. Don't say that he's hypocritical. Say rather that he's apolitical.

Vonsa rockets are up, who cares where they come down? That's not my department, says Werner von Braun. Do you think he could have washed his hands where the rockets came down? I say, calm down. That's not my department. Says where no fun for us. Do you think he could have washed his hands where the rockets came down? I mean, he knew where they were going. But he knew their weapons. I'd been mulling this over a lot.

So that part of me thinks that could he not have slowed the progress of the rocket program down? Could he not have essentially sabotaged it? He was the kind of lynch pin. I think people have described him as being a kind of organizer. He was a 10-brilliant technical director. He had a great breadth people have described him as being a kind of organizer. He was a brilliant technical director. He had a great breadth of knowledge, but not a great depth of knowledge.

It's what one of the people who worked with him, a NASA said. And I think the idea was if you'd really wanted to, he could have stopped. He could have maybe slowed down the progress of the bomb. Lots of programs in Nazi Germany, lots of hair brain schemes failed. Huge amounts of money were being pumped into the V2.

It was a huge effort, apparently comparable to the American effort to create the atomic bomb. Huge amounts of money being essentially wasted on this project. But there were other projects that were equally expensive, which just failed. And they didn't take the scientists out, they didn't take them directly out and shoot them against the wall. They were just, you know, fair enough, didn't work. I wonder possibly, if, for any of our brown, could have slowed it down. He knew what was happening in Nazi Germany.

He knew what the French him was doing. He also knew that the writings on the wall and it was all going to be over quite soon. Yeah, and yet plowed on. Yeah, absolutely. To the extent that he was nearly killed in a car crash because he and his chauffeur were working so hard. This is in the final weeks of the war.

They're driving all over the place, trying to get stuff done, and the chauffeur falls to sleep at the wheel, and Fondreun is asleep in the back and nearly killed him. And that was overwork. But the other part of me is actually, despite the deaths of all of the people who worked on the project and despite the deaths in London and other cities in Europe. The money was draining out of the Nazi regime

because of the V2 project was actually quite useful. If they spent it wisely, they maybe could have kept the war going slightly longer, they could have chewed up more lives, they could have more people. At the same time, the launch sites for the V2 were mainly in Holland because that was where you could basically reach London from the Hague. So the Germans were based themselves then, they weren't withdrawing partly because of the V2 sites there. And they were starving the population, which is awful. The V2 did more damage to the German War effort than the cruelty inflicted on many hundreds of thousands, if not a million people. I mean, did enormous damage to the German War effort. There's one physicist I quote who said we were very grateful

to Von Braun because it was as though they had pursued a policy of unilateral disarmament, so much money that could have been spent on planes, fighter planes, or tanks was going on this V2. But I mean, it did cause mass starvation purely because of the, all the potatoes, that sounds absurd, the potatoes required to make the alcohol, which was an important part of fueling this, this rocket, And millions of people, literally millions of people, were starving to death in Eastern Europe at the time. Let's listen to the end of the Tom Lera song. Some have harsh words for this man of renown,

but some think our attitude should be one of gratitude, like the widows and cripples in all London town Who owe their large pensions to Werner von Braun You too may be a big hero Once you've learned to count backwards to zero In German or English, I know how to count down And I'm learning Chinese when I'm learning Chinese. Says Werner von Braun. APPLAUSE

What's the China reference about? So Tom Leer's argument was that he would sell himself to the high speeder. I think it was an open question who he would work for. I doubt he would have been the Chinese, but there were other people interested in his services. So in the media aftermath of the collapse of Germany, the Allies still find Japan. It was quite a good idea to grab out of these rockets, scientists, and these rockets,

and maybe you could reversion these rockets to work for the invasion of Japan. 5e2's on Tokyo or something. Killer Japanese saved American and British lives. That I guess was the plan. There's a slight hiatus, so when Verne von Braun went to America initially, he complained about lack of funding. But actually, between 1945 and 1950, there wasn't a huge amount of interest in those rockets. It wasn't until the Cold War really cited a ramp up with the Berlin blockade and then of course in the Korean War. There's a sense that maybe

we need to arm ourselves against the communist threat, and that's when the money started to flow. And for most of his career, he was actually a weapons scientist, he only towards the end. Did he then turn to working for NASA for the thing that he often claimed was his ultimate goal, which was getting to the moon or getting to Mars? Vendron Brown, when he was made into an American citizen,

he apparently he saw to say, it was the proudest day of his life. So for being a man, he says like, no, I needed to fight for Germany. I needed to fight for my homeland. I need to make weapons for Hitler because I love Germany. Within two or three months of arriving in America,

he's very, very keen to be American. Yes. Hey, political. As Tom Laira says. He found it very difficult to speak up and try and help the workers in his factory, try and help people who were persecuted by the Nazis. He felt it wasn't safe.

He shouldn't do it. But when he was an American, he played a very, very high-stakes game of criticizing the American government, his employer, for not giving enough resources. And there's one point where he even accepted an offer to speak in Russia, and there was a real worry that he might not come back. Yeah. So there was a sense that in the 1960s, with Tom Lair,

that this man who preached morality, who preached being a loyal American, was actually up for the high speeder, and anyone who would morality, who preached being a loyal American, was actually up for the high spitter, and anyone who would finance his dream would win his loyalty. And that was certainly a fear that both sides had at the end of the Second World War. I say both sides, both sides of the Cold War. So the Soviet block and America and its allies were both worried that these German scientists would go off and join the other lot. Whether that was actually true or not, that was certainly what people were afraid of.

And clearly, it was something that Fond Brown was willing to exploit. But certainly to return to your question about how have we been treated differently. I think this article in from the Daily Mirror, which is from 1947, actually writes very angrily about the conditions that the German scientists kept in. Yeah, so this is a British newspaper.

This is the British newspaper. Most notorious among the scientists is Professor Vern von Braun, 35, principal inventor of the V2 rocket which brought death to many British men, women and children. Although not his guilty of much milder crimes have been executed or imprisoned, von Braun and his bride are being entertained and made a fuss of. Yeah, so he should have been shocked, is what they're saying. Well, one of those people, the Americans certainly did not come close to shooting him. They put him on Disney.

Even in the next paragraph, there was a campaign to whitewash them. Some US officials insist they were merely nominal Nazis, and now they are 100% pro-United Nations, so pro-Ally. Many Americans shocked, point out that the usefulness of a criminal is no excuse for not punishing them for their misdeeds. Fascinating. Fascinating. And there is a reason in the end that we didn't use the Tom Lara song in the series much

as I love Tom Lara. And that's, I think, uncharacteristically Tom Lera missed the point. He missed the most important fact about the V2 weapons program. And if people want to find out what that fact is, they can listen to the V2 trilogy. Ryan Dilly. At last, in front of the microphone, thank you for joining us. It's been a pleasure for me if not for listeners. All three episodes are available now. Add free exclusively for Pushkin Plus subscribers. listeners. with another brand new episode of cautionary tales on our main ad-supported feed. Corsionary Tales is written by me Tim Harford with Andrew Wright.

It's produced by Alice Finds with support from Edith Husslo, the sound design and original music as the work was as gal-wise. Julia Barton edited the scripts. It features the voice talents of Ben Crow, Melanie Guthridge, Gemma Saunders and Rufus Wright. The show wouldn't have been possible without the work of Jacob Weisberg, Ryan Dilly, Greta Cohn, Lytel Mellard, John Schnarrs, Carly Migliori and Eric Sandland. Corsary Tales is a production of Pushkin Industries. It was recorded in Wardle Studios in London, like Tom Berry. If you like the show, please remember to share, rate and review.

Go on, you know it helps us. And if you want to hear the show add free, sign up for Pushkin Plus on the show page in Apple podcasts or at pushkin.fm slash plus. Are you interested in stories of power, fame, royalty, and family politics? Hi, I'm Sarah Lyle, a reporter for The New York Times. My new pushkin audiobook, UnRoyal, is an audio documentary that tells the story of three powerful women who married into you and were ultimately rejected by the British monarchy, while a Simpson, Diana Spencer, and Meghan Markle.

Here, I blend the probing inquisition of your wrong about with the historical intrigue of the crown, serving a delectable royal feast for the years. Check it out at pushkin.fm-slash-un-royal, or wherever audiobooks are sold. Check it out at pushkin.fm-slash-un-royal or wherever audiobooks are sold.