Chambers of the Occult - EP# 21 Death by Dose and Ghosts from the Morgue: The Tylenol Murders and The Haunting in Connecticut

Episode Date: November 14, 2024

In the first half of this episode, J unravels the harrowing mystery of the Tylenol Murders, a case that sent shockwaves across America in 1982. In Chicago, several people mysteriously died after taking what they thought was ordinary Tylenol for pain relief. Soon, authorities discovered the grim truth: the capsules had been laced with cyanide, leading to seven tragic deaths within days. This brutal act of tampering not only sparked a massive recall but also led to groundbreaking changes in the packaging of over-the-counter drugs, introducing tamper-proof seals as a new safety standard. Despite years of intense investigation, the identity of the perpetrator remains unknown, leaving behind a legacy of fear and unanswered questions: who poisoned these pills, and why did they commit such a heartless crime?Next, Kai takes us into the eerie depths of The Haunting in Connecticut, where the Snedeker family found themselves at the mercy of disturbing supernatural forces. After moving into a former funeral home, the family began experiencing relentless paranormal phenomena, from shadowy apparitions to violent physical attacks. As they delved into the property’s history, they unearthed shocking details about its past as a mortuary, with whispers of necromantic rituals that may have left lingering darkness in the home. The situation grew so terrifying that famed investigators Ed and Lorraine Warren were called to intervene, declaring it one of their most disturbing cases. Was this just a series of coincidences, or had the family truly awakened something sinister that refused to leave? Kai guides us through the chilling twists of this Connecticut haunting, exploring the thin line between life, death, and whatever lurks beyond.Send us a text

Chambers of the Occult may contain content that might not be suitable for all listeners. Listener discretion is advised. Welcome back. Welcome back to Chambers of the Occult. I'm Jay. I'm Kai. And have we got some stories for you. We do. Now that I'm thinking about it, I don't know if we introduced ourselves last episode.

Or like, or two episodes, or whichever. I think two episodes ago when we had our cameras on for the first time. I think we did. We did? Okay. I think so. Either way, you guys should know us by now. Yeah, you should recognize the voice. Yeah, you should.

It's, people are recognizing our voices, I guess. Yeah, they did. I had somebody recognize my voice. Like last week, and it was kind of weird, because I thought he was stalking me, and I was really scared for my life Not really but Yes, hello hi, you should probably like know us yeah

Thanks for sticking around yeah No Yeah, Now. Yeah. Cool. Yeah. We've got some fun stuff. It is a nice night right now. Honestly. I'm very cozy. I don't know about you, Jay.

It is. Yeah. I came home, my window was open, and I'm like, it's getting chilly, so I closed it. I love it. I love that it's finally getting chilly. Yeah. It's been so hot here for far too long. It doesn't feel like fall but it's finally starting to. It really does not feel like fall so I'm so glad it's getting cold. Yeah.

Yeah. I came back from my trip and I was like it's still not fall weather. But yeah. Well, any other updates we have for them? As always, let us know what you guys wanna see. I don't know when we're constantly trying to improve and trying out new things. So you're gonna see new things from us soon. Someone tagged us on a TikTok video, like a paranormal case. So just add it into our favorites.

So feel free to take a look at it in case you want to cover that one in the future. Got it. But yeah, tag us places. Yeah, and we're definitely working on, you know, responding to like TikToks and emails and things like that. Yeah, sometimes- We'll get back to you.

It's a little hard to reply, especially when it's like, would you stay in a haunted hotel? And like the comments is like, no. I mean, fair enough, but like we can't really do much with that. Yeah, yeah, but I mean, straight to the point. Yeah, don't blame you. We had a question, you answered it. Thank you.

We should have more open-ended questions. I think that might help. Please, like answered it, thank you. We should have more open-ended questions. I think that might help. Please, like engage us, you know. We wanna talk to you guys. We will engage back to y'all, with you. Yeah. I think that's the word I was looking for.

Cool, let's get started. Ready to kick it off? But yeah, quick question. I mean, it's related to my story. I'll start us off with True Crime. By the way, I'm just going to clarify right here and there now. Yesterday was Tuesday. Yes.

Yeah. Monday and Tuesday, I was doing research for the wrong story. Oh, what? Like I was doing research for a paranormal story. Oh, what? Like I was doing research for a paranormal story, um, even though we discussed that I was covering true crime. Um, for some reason it just slipped my head and I was going deeper into it and I'm like, wait, I was like, do I have any other cases? And then I realized, Oh, I'm doing true crime.

Didn't panic though, because I already had this pretty much researched quite well. And I mean, there's a plethora, there's an abundance of true crime cases out there. And paranormal ones, you just have to find them. This is true, but I'm not the greatest at finding paranormal cases anyway. Maybe you should stop looking for buildings and just start looking for like UFOs or like cryptids or like...

I don't know. See, I try. I literally I have tried and like, I don't know. Either there's not enough or there's just not enough to like really talk about in a case. So like for some of them, I like they're like a good bonus story or something. But you know, we don't have those anymore so yeah But fair maybe I'll look through maybe I'll there is a lot and most of them tend to be like a short story of like This is when it started. This is when it ended the end

Or like yeah fair. Well, have you ever been to Illinois? No Yeah, fair. Well, have you ever been to Illinois? No. Okay, cool. I want to go though. I want to go to, you know, Chicago and all those places. My layover was in Chicago's airport. So I was there for like 30 minutes before my next flight. But I was like, now I need to come back

and literally get out of the airport. Anyway, we're going to Illinois. Okay. We're also going back in time, so. Of course. We're going like the usual. The year is- I mean, there's no way we can go forward in time.

True, or can we? I don't think so. Who knows? We're not there yet. No, yeah. The year is 1982, and it's September. Who knows? Who knows? We're not there yet. No. Yeah. The year is 1982 and it's September. September 29th, 1982. And it's...

Okay. We're going to start... We're going to go through a couple of places, but it all takes place in Illinois. September 29th, 1982 in Elk Grove Village. Okay. Now, here, it's going to sound like a little fairy tale. in 1982 in Elk Grove Village. Okay. Now here, it's gonna sound like a little fairytale. There was a 12 year old girl who lived in Elk Grove Village.

But one day she woke up experiencing a sore throat and a runny nose. She wasn't feeling well, so she told her parents and her parents, you know, just told her to stay at home from school. So like any good parent, they gave her some medicine and they sent her to get some rest. Hopefully the medicine will help with her symptoms. Now at 6 30 a.m. little Mary woke up to go use the restroom and then her dad heard a thud. restroom and then her dad heard a thud.

After that, he called out to his daughter, Mary. He was like, Mary, uh, there was no response. So he barged into the bathroom and he found out that she was found unresponsive on the floor. Oh shit. Yeah. We're going straight to it. Straight to it. Okay.

Um, her parents immediately saw emergency medical assistance. However, despite their quick response, Mary was taken to the hospital and just three hours later, she was pronounced dead. What? Yeah. That's so sad. Now,

the same day that this happened, there was another Mary, Mary Rainer. She was a 27-year-old in the town of Winfield and she had a body ache. She also had just recently given birth to her fourth kid who was just a week old and she just hit the floor comatose. What? Yeah. Her husband called the paramedics. Her eight-year-old daughter had to watch from upstairs as the paramedics took her mom away. Unfortunately, she didn't make it as well.

What the hell? Now, this is Mary Kellerman, the 12-year-old, Mary Rayner, the 27-year-old, and now we're going to go east to talk about Mary McFarland. Another one? Another Mary. She is 31 years old and her job at the Illinois Bellphone Center. She just told her coworker that she had a split in headache.

And after a few minutes at work, she went comatose and hit the floor as well. What? What? I mean, like, they're named Mary. Who's targeting Mary's? Fair. What is going on here? Now, same day, September 29th, 1982, same day, a few miles north in Arlington Heights, here's a name change, Adam.

Adam Janus, a 27-year-old, he felt that he was coming down with a cold as well. So he took the day off from his postal office. Do you have... So, no, keep going. But I'm like, so it's not just Mary's? No. Anyway. Yeah, so Adam took the day off from his postal office job. And later that day, he told the kids that he was going to go lay down. Adam staggered into the kitchen, and he collapsed right in front of them. And later that day he told the kids that he was gonna go lay down

Adams staggered into the kitchen and he collapsed right in front of them The time was 1154 and he slipped into a coma Imagine being those kids. Oh, yeah watching From upstairs or like just in front of you just like your parent goes. Your dad just stumbling and he drops and then he doesn't wake up. I don't know if you have seen, side note, but related to parents passing out. This lady getting her tattoo done and then she's like, I need some water. And then she starts to pass out and the kid's with her and as soon as the mom like hits the floor, he's like, Ah, she's dead! No, I haven't seen that."

I'll have to find it and send it to you, but it's just crazy. She just needed a break from the tattoo. But yeah, I mean, it's crazy. So, in the hospital, Adam's entire family, his parents, brother, and their wives, and his niece, Monica, were told that Adam had passed away. So this is the fourth person that just on this day just passed away. That's crazy.

So afterwards, Adam's family went back to his house and they just comforted each other. They made coffee, they ate some canned peaches, and in the house, Adam's older brother named Stanley and his wife Teresa were suffering from some chronic pain that started to act up. So Stanley was about to go on a smoke break, he was going to go smoke a cigarette, when in front of his parents, brother and wife, and even his daughter Monica, he grabbed his chest, he collapsed to the floor, his eyes rolled back to the back of his head, and then he started to foam from the mouth.

Now, go ahead. No, I'm just like, that is so insane. Yeah, what is happening to these people? And if I'm at the mouth like what he has been like so far everyone else just passed out comatose He's the first one that has filmed on the mouth. Okay. Yeah, like so it's it's change It's escalated a bit or something or me or you know, he's maybe just reacting differently to something else now of course... I can't just drop that. Oh, my God. I mean, I'm just saying, something's going around.

So they're, like, being poisoned or something? Well, the room went chaotic. Everyone was standing in shock as he was in the floor, foaming at the mouth. Funnily enough, or just like, it's just an interesting fact, the same paramedics that helped Adam were the ones that arrived to help Stanley. Oh shit. And once again they were into this belief this is like the second call they're getting from the same household and now it's his brother that needs medical

attention. So the paramedics started to load Stanley on the stretcher. Things went from bad to worse. His wife, Teresa, had had a headache and then she collapsed on the floor. It's spreading! What? Or is it? I don't know. Yeah, so she collapsed on the floor. And his wife, Teresa, like I said, she just collapsed on the floor. Monica, their daughter, ran to her mom just begging her not to die. She had just lost her uncle, her dad was on the floor, and now her mom had also collapsed. The family wasn't sure of what to do, so they just got on their knees and they prayed.

Yeah. Because also, like, what are the chances that, like, three of your relatives are going to suffer from something crazy like this? No, seriously, like, that is insane. Of like, the, yeah, the coincidence of that. But I mean, then that leads me to believe that, you know, of course there's gotta be something... Going around.

...nefarious at play. This is a true crime after all. Exactly. Now, the police just evacuated the family. They put them in quarantine, suspecting that a gas leak... was to blame. Oh.

Also, the police were unaware that other people in other locations were suffering, so the police just thought it was this household. Fair. Now, by 8 p.m. that evening, Stanley was pronounced dead. He was the fifth person. And Teresa was holding on onto dear life. Now no one knows how the three Janus cases were connected, the three family members, but if they were able to find out the cause, maybe they would have a fighting chance for Teresa to survive.

Unfortunately, Teresa just died a few hours after her husband Stanley, making her the sixth person to pass away. Now, once the house seemed safe, the investigators, Nick Pischos, a police officer, and a public nurse named Helen Jensen returned to the household to investigate. There were no obvious clues that really stood out, but Helen Jensen noticed that something caught her eye. A red and white bottle of extra strength Tylenol.

No. It sat on the bathroom shelf with some over-the-counter drugs. Nurse Helen Jensen brought the container to the kitchen. She poured out the pills and the investigators counted them to compare them to the box. And they quickly realized that there were three doses, three doses, doses missing, three doses for three people. Yeah.

Now, Nurse Helen had a theory, and she reminded the investigator of little Mary Kellerman, the 12 year old. At the time, the paramedics took inventory of everything that little Mary had taken. The one common item, care to guess what it was? Tylenol. Tylenol. Tylenol. So, investigator Nick had the paramedics ship him the Tylenol box from Kellersman Home. And once the investigator Nick had both packages, he called the chief executive medical examiner,

who was Dr. Robert Stein. And Dr. Robert Stein told the investigators that there had only been one thing connecting them, and it was Tylenol. Tylenol. Now the Tylenol packages had the same control number, MC2880. They tested the pills, and they came back positive for cyanide.

What the fuck? Yeah. Okay. Yeah. So this is the case of the Tylenol poisonings. Oh, yes, yes, yes. Okay. Yes. The name probably rings a bell, but I did not lead with this. It does. No, I don't know anything about it, but of course I've heard about the Tylenol poisoning. So... Now, the way cyanide works is that once it's ingested, it works by blocking the cells from our body from utilizing oxygen. So even if the person, like Mary or everyone else, they were breathing, the cyanide just prevents the cells from absorbing it,

and it just causes the cells to suffocate from the inside out. Wow. Wow. Yeah. Now, the process is quickly, it impacts the brain and the heart, the two organs that depend highly on oxygen to function. And within minutes, this can lead to severe brain damage and the shutdown of the heart and other, you know, systems in the body. Now, without prompt and effective treatment,

cyanide poisoning can rapidly result in the body. Now with that prompt and effective treatment, cyanide poisoning can rapidly result in fatal outcomes, as we've seen. Now just a little quick history in Tylenol, not too long. Tylenol was introduced in 1955, and by 1980, it was number one. So it was found everywhere. Yeah, I mean it was huge.

Yeah. It still is. It's, yeah, it still is. Now Tylenol didn't have a plastic seal at the time. It was just a cardboard cover on the top. Oh. And a couple of cotton balls on the inside. So, because it was, you know, the number one pain reliever, or whatever Tylenol does, officials needed

to get the word out, since every pill was unfortunately a ticking time bomb. That's when officers from the Chicago Department of Public Health and the Cook County Medical Examiner's Office, including Dr. Robert Stein, held a local press conference to warn that Tylenol was dangerous. Now, the cops knew that not everyone was watching the news at 10 in the morning, so they took to the streets. Police cars and ambulances cruised down, blasting like a message through the bull horns that said, do not take Tylenol. In addition to this, local church groups and Boy Scouts

went door to door to help spread the word. That's awesome. Yeah, so, you know, because once again, it's medicine that anyone can take. They were like, we need to get the word out. The health department placed notices on local homes that read this message is to alert you about a contamination that has been found in Talenil products we strongly urge you to

stop using this products immediately. You know it's like a massive recall but at the same time it's like don't take it you might die. Literally it's like, don't take it, you might die. Literally, it's like, guys, take this seriously, please. Yeah. Yeah, it's not like, don't look at the control number, just like all Tylenol products, just. Yeah, you mentioned they held like a local press conference. Yes. Like for the news, right? I'm surprised they didn't get like federal stuff

immediately, like notified immediately to get like a national conference or like some type of news broadcast or something. I don't know, maybe they did and you'll get into it, but. You're just foreshadowing. You sure you haven't heard the story? Like immediately, you know? Yeah, yeah.

Well, at first it was like the same little towns within the same area, but I'll get more into it. Yeah, yeah, of course. So once again, the cops went door to door asking residents to hand over any bottles they had. And it wasn't just to like take them away from their hands, but also to of course, like test them to see if they potentially purchase a bottle of Tylenol that had cyanide in it. Now, word started to get out, but of course, fear did as well. Yeah.

Doctors, offices, hospitals were all filled with phone calls, you know, from people that probably had taken Tylenol. People who had taken Tylenol, you know, just before hearing the message called and asked if they were about to die. That's crazy. Yeah. Oh my crazy. Yeah. Oh, my God. The fear that went through these people when they heard this message

after they had just taken a Tylenol pill. Now, the CEO of the Cook County Medical Office, Examiner's Office, had a blunt answer to everyone that called. And he simply said, the simple answer is, if you took it and you're calling me, don't worry. Because of how fast Cyanide acted.

Yeah. Yeah, God, but like still the fear of like taking a pill and then calling and like, yeah, that must have been crazy. Like knowing you could literally die at any second. Yeah, definitely. Now Friday, October 1st, this is two days after the first incident started. Around 5 p.m. in Old Town, Chicago,

cops broke into an apartment. The apartment was of a 35-year-old flight attendant, Paula Prince. As they broke into the apartment, she was laying on the doorway to the bathroom with moisturizer still smeared on her face and a bottle of Tylenol sat in her vanity. She was the seventh victim and her sister had been the one to find her. had been the one to find her. Now, at this point, the problem wasn't only part of the suburbs,

but it also crawled into the city, and that's when police decided to tell the mayor. However, there was a problem. She wasn't home. What? Where the hell was she? Now, the mayor of Chicago at the time was Jane Byrne. Jane Byrne. She was also the first female mayor of Chicago. That's cool.

And she had actually gone to a party that night. Now, the police, you know, they're like, we have to reach her. So the police superintendent called the mayor. They were're like, we have to reach her. So the police superintendent called the mayor. They were still able to get a hold of her. Good. And the superintendent told her about the flight attendant who had died in the old town and that all the deaths that were surrounding the suburbs.

And the mayor immediately understood the gravity of the situation. So once she arrived, she decided to hold a late night press conference. And it broadcasted nationwide. This is when we go nationwide. Good. Good. Yeah. She took it very serious from the start.

And around 11 p.m. That's when the mayor made an announcement and she made a direct appeal to Johnson & Johnson. Telling them that they had to recall every Tylenol bottle on stores nationwide. Now, this was a huge deal at the time because in 1982, CNN was on its first two years of cable news. And a crisis like this was rare to be seen nationwide. So CNN covered it and within the two years, like, they just cover like a national crisis. Now, this caused panic, of course. covered it and within the two years like they just cover like a national crisis. Now this caused panic, of course.

Once again, at first it was in the suburbs. Now it's in Chicago. Now it's all of Illinois. Now it's nationwide. People were panicking. People started to wonder what else was tampered with. They're like, if they tampered Tylenol, what else is tampered with? Valid. Yeah.

Some people even stopped giving their kids milk since there was no safety caps on cartons as well. Okay. At first I was like, but actually I guess that makes sense because like anything could be tampered with. Yeah. This was before everything was like tampered with. Like seals and stuff like that.

Okay. Yeah. So what ended up happening was that Johnson & Johnson decided to step in. They established a hotline. And for four days after the press conference, they recalled about 31 million bottles. And that was an estimate loss of about $100 million at the time. Holy fuck. So they're like, we have to do this. A lot of bottles, a lot of money.

Yeah. I'm sure they were pissed about having to recall all of this, but like, yeah. But you know, people's lives are at stake. They did offer refunds and exchanges to customers, they said. They said Tylenol would not be back on the shelves until they had the perfect tamper-proof packing. And in a surprise revelation, Johnson & Johnson disclosed that they had not been completely honest before because they admitted that they did indeed store potassium cyanide at some of their facilities.

What? Yes. Which is crazy to think of. Why are they storing cyanide? What do they need cyanide for? Okay, so this is what's happening. So they stated that the substance was used in laboratory-based chemical testings. Specifically to test povidone. I think that's what it is. It just binds tablets.

And it's like a stabilizer. It's like the primary binder used to make Tylenol. So they didn't actually keep it where they manufacture Tylenol. They kept it in a different location, but they still, you know, had their hands on it. Yeah. Officials just stated that the labs were at a remote location, away from manufacturing. It was just for testing, not for manufacturing. And Johnson & Johnson set up lab tests to recall all the pills and the effort was worth it.

Good. I'm glad they made the effort. Yeah. Now, the company found three bottles with the pills replaced with cyanide. Two of them were found in people's homes, which means because of the recall, they saved who knows how many people's lives from that house. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And one was found still sitting in a Chicago store shelf waiting to be sold to an unsuspecting victim Now Yeah, go go for it What's running through your head?

No, I'm just thinking like it's so disheartening of Knowing all this but then I'm still on the fact of just like, how are like, why is there the possibility they could like mix up cyanide and put it into their pill? Well, anyway. No, no, you're good. You're good. It was a lot like I have was like, I was like, why are they doing this?

Like, oh, it's like for testing, but it's not at the site of manufacturing. Yeah, there's a lot. So like I said, Mayor James Bryan and Johnson & Johnson's hard work paid off because they were able to save more life by recalling all the Tylenol bottles. Now, the FBI, the Illinois State Police, and the local departments and other law enforcement agencies were, agencies, where they formed a task force to investigate the Tylenol poisonings. And the name given, the code name for the task force was TIMERS, which just stands for Tylenol Murders.

Oh, okay. Yeah. That's simple. Yeah. Now, investigators thought that the person responsible Oh, okay. Yeah. That's simple. Yeah. Now, investigators thought that the person responsible for the killings bought Tylenol extra strength, emptied the capsules, replaced it with cyanide, and then on Tuesday, September 28th, you know, the murder hit the stores, hiding the bottles back on the shelves, because once again, they're not tamper-proof.

Now, there was a few stores with CCTV and a few credit stores, credit cards. What am I trying to say? Oh, sorry. At the time, there was very few stores with CCTV and few credit cards since there was still relatively new. There was still, yeah. So there was no anti-tampering devices on Tylenol. There was very little footage and credit cards were not used everywhere.

Now the task force predicted that the perpetrator took seven hours to do this to eight bottles. That's a long time. Yes. I mean, you have to go, I don't know how many pills were in each ton or bottle, but he had to empty each one of them, fill them with. That's true. Yeah. Now, what was interesting is that there was really just a lack of motive.

There was no clear unintended victim. Now, what was interesting is that there was really just a lack of motive. There was no clear unintended victim. Yeah. Like, why? Yeah, just anyone that had the misfortune of buying a tainted Tylenol bottle. The task force thought it might have been a disgruntled employee from Johnson & Johnson. So they started to question them. They also received help from the media, including the Chicago area's three major newspapers, which at the time were the Sun Times,

the Tribune, and the Daily Herald. Good. Now- So they were really working on getting it like known and being proactive about like the media exposure and stuff, yeah. And that's when the hard thing starts, like the investigation, there's no clear motive.

Yeah. Why is this happening? Journalists posted the schedule of the victims' funerals, hoping that you know, sometimes the killer is out there and he wants to show up to the funeral just to see his work. But there was no luck. No one really suspicious showed up during the funerals. There were undercover agents at the funerals, but there were no individuals who looked out of place. So whoever did it didn't bother to show up to the funerals. Now the task force also set up hotlines looking for any tips. And of course calls came in day and night.

And the task force eventually found themselves with too many leads. Too many? Yeah. I mean this is a nationwide issue and like anyone with a lead can call in. That's true and so I'm sure they were backed up for so long. Yeah. The way it's a good comparison, because the way the assistant US attorney like described it is as if you were trying to drink from a fire hose. Oh, that is a really good analogy. Yeah. I was like, OK, like I see what you mean by too many leads.

Like you can only do so much. I wonder, actually, like I wonder what damage would happen if you actually tried to like drink from a fire. I'm sure that there could be some. No, because fire hoses are like powerful. Yeah, I was going to be like, there's a lot of pressure coming from them. I feel like that could like like like break your teeth. I Wouldn't it could take a definitely really hurt you anyway, I leave some bruises the whole thing. Yeah. Yeah

I don't even know if like the person would be able to like withstand the force or if like they would just probably just fall backwards Yeah, that's what I'm thinking Now something else a body of a man was found with Tylenol in his pocket. Interesting. So, of course, everyone is calling in. Psychics called about clues found in olive jars. I don't know, I don't have more more about that I just thought to bring it up

psychics yes found clues in all of jobs yes we're not that's one of the most like like we're reading all things I've ever heard what what kind of lead is that yeah and did it lead anywhere? Nope. Hell no. Actually, I don't know. No, that's fair. Also, one man led police in a series of solid tips until they asked him for his source.

And then he said that his source was a magic pen that gave him the answers. A magic pen? Pen. Pen, dude. Yeah. Dude, I need a magic pen to give me all the answers. A magic pen? Pen. Pen, dude. Yeah. Dude, I need a magic pen to give me all the answers. So once again, you know, like they were solid leads and then this man's like, oh yeah, I got them from my magic pen. And they're like, okay, thank you. We'll move on to the next tip. Thanks for your help. Yeah. One housewife told him about a man selling a deadly concoction of apple cider door to door.

Um, and she said that she knew it was poisonous because the liquid was in right through the plastic. Um, see, I want to believe that she was exaggerating with that, but also who just makes up that like some guy is selling you apple cider and it's burning through the plastic because of how like poisonous or acidic it is? Like what? That's just... Now, I'm not sure if the housewife that called bought some of the apple cider, but the FBI

was sent some of the apple cider, but the FBI was sent some of the apple cider to test. It was sent to the lab for analysis and the lab techs, then they ended up saying that when the apple juice ferments, it has enough acidity to burn through some containers. Oh, it was just basically bootleg apple cider vinegar. That makes a lot of sense actually. Yeah. Yeah. And if it's like some weird guy who's selling it who just made it at his house, I could easily see how that would ferment and be weird and turn into like a weird apple cider.

Yeah, yeah, definitely. It's like, hey, you want some apple cider, but also have a good time. Yes I do. Hopefully I wake up tomorrow. It's not poisoned. Yeah. Now there is, let's see if I can open it. Cause I have this article. Nope.

I'll see if I can get it later. Maybe put it on the site. It's one of those that like requires you to like sign up for their memberships. But long story short, it's just gonna show the timelines of the seven people that got affected by the Tylenol Poisonines. That would be cool to see. Like the time they took the pill, the time that they hit comatose,

and the time that they passed away. Now, unfortunately there were no leads, no suspects, until... drumroll... um... Uh... Johnson and Johnson received a letter from the killer himself. No fucking way. No way. Yes. Okay, I'm- I wanna hear this. I wanna know what happened.

Now, I have the letter here. I want to know what happened. Now, I have the letter here, so I'll read it to you. And it says, Johnson & Johnson, parents of McNeil Laboratories. Gentlemen, as you can see, it is easy to place cyanide, both potassium and sodium, into capsules, sitting on store shelves. sodium into capsules, sitting on store shelves. And since cyanide is inside the gelatin, it is easy to get buyers to swallow the bitter pill. Another beauty is that cyanide... I don't know what the...

It's good spelling. I just can't read it because it's so old. Another beauty is that cyanide operates quickly. It takes so very little and there will be no time to take countermeasures. If you don't mind the publicity of the little capsules, then do nothing. So far, I have spent less than $50, and it takes me less than 10 minutes per bottle. If you want to stop the killings, then wire $1 million Fuck.

Yeah, to bank account 8449597 at Continental Illinois Bank, Chicago, Illinois. Don't attempt to involve the FBI or local Chicago authorities with this letter. A couple of phone calls by me will undo anything you can possibly do. What the fuck is that supposed to mean? Exactly, yeah. Like he thinks he has so much like influence or something. Also writing like, I don't know, he didn't show up to the funerals, you know, like there was no clues and out of nowhere.

But like he wants more like attention or like he wants a ransom. But I feel like it's like so long since the initial killings. Yeah. But like, I don't know, the timing of it just feels really weird. Yeah. But also like, also like, I don't know, I'm just thinking about the bank account, like you have a full, can't they like track a bank account and see who it belongs to? Right?

So like why are you just giving your bank, unless there's protections and shit or who's using a fake name. Or like it's like an overseas bank account with like a fake name. Yeah, but this is a local bank. Yeah it's in Chicago, Illinois. Or like it's like an overseas bank account with like a fake name. Yeah, but this is a local bank. Yeah, it's in Chicago, Illinois. Yeah, Chicago local bank, so weird. I don't know. Like it doesn't seem like this guy would be doing this

like for the money or for the attention because it didn't feel like there was a real motive at first, but also he would have sent this ransom sooner, I feel like, or wanting the money. I don't know. No like Ideally you would want to send that ransom as soon as it news were like nationwide Yeah, as soon as it was found out about like yeah, it got a huge thing and caused that chaos Yeah, but it was a while people were coming with you know psychics

Apple cider everything was coming through and then this letter comes to Johnson & Johnson Also, the guy sounds so like a pretentious as well Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, it only took me this long to do this blah blah blah He's like it only cost me $50 so far and 10 minutes a bottle like who the hell do you think you are? Yeah, yeah, no, it's it's a crazy letter Especially because in cases like this you don't normally like get anything from the killer You either find him or you don't or like he doesn't speak. Now, this was when the FBI finally had a lead because of course Johnson and Johnson

passed it later. Now the letter did contain a partial fingerprint. a partial fingerprint. So the US Department of Justice also directed the bank account to turn over financial records that were mentioned in the letter. So like you said, there's a bank account name there. Hey, give us all that information. The interesting thing is that the bank account had been closed five months earlier. What? So the bank account that was on the letter

was a closed bank account. So it was not an active account? No. Like money couldn't even be transferred into it. No. Nothing could have been done. Weird, okay, go on. Yeah. Now, the bank account did belong to Frederick Miller McKay, and he was an heir to the Miller Bruin fortune. And investigators established that Frederick was not responsible for the letter

and authorities asked him for a list of names of anyone that could seek to ruin his reputation. Frederick was the former owner and he no longer exists and no longer existing lakeside travel agency. So many of his ex-employees suspected that he had diverted company funds to pay his own personal bills. It just resulted in employees like final paychecks bouncing. So there was a lot of employees that their final paycheck bounced, which means there was a lot of employees

that could have it out for Frederick. Now, so go ahead. Yeah, a lot of people. And so I mean, that's, I guess, lots of motive behind it. But I don't know. Yeah, keep going. It would still get tracked down to you, like thinking about it logically.

Like, I'm going to frame my boss. Well, you have history with your boss. Now, given that the envelope and the letter was returned from Frederick's former business, his list that he gave to the authorities contained the name of four resentful employees. And one name was Robert Richardson, who was discovered to hold grudges and found his handwriting was a match to the letter that they received from Johnson & Johnson.

Oh, shit. Yes. So they have someone. They finally have like a solid lead. Not coming from a psychic or a magic pen, but like from evidence that they have acquired. So police attempted to apprehend Robert, but he and his wife Nancy have since left their apartment in Chicago's Northside for just an unknown destination. So they just took off. They just took off.

Weird. Yeah, so a nationwide search was commenced and the police soon discovered that the names Robert and Nancy Richardson were not real. They were fake names. Of course. Of course they weren't real. Of course they weren't real. Why would they be real? Yeah, yeah. Their real names were James and Leanne Lewis. Okay.

So, you know, now they have... It starts to, like, get more complicated because you're like, finally we have proof. Now we have someone that's being framed. Which of your employees is framing you? Oh, this guy. Let's find him. Oh, wait, that's not a real person. That's not a real person. Yeah, which makes everything just more suspicious.

Like, what the fuck? Yeah. So, they did some investigating and they found out that James... Just his background, was abandoned at the age of three. And he was adopted by a childless couple. He had a rough childhood, but even as a child, he was short-tempered, reckless, and even violent. Not... No, not surprising.

Why is it always the same with, like, with, like, murderers? I don't know. They have something in common. They do. So he often flew into rages. In one instance, he chased his mother with an axe. What the fuck? Yeah. So it's not like, I hate you, slam the door.

It's like, I'm going to chase my mom with an axe. That's insane. And in another... Like, that's literally like murder in the making. Yeah. I don't know. Yeah, definitely, definitely. And in another issue, like another incident, he faced assault charges after breaking several

of his father's ribs. How? How do you, what? Like he beat him? Yeah, yeah. He beat his father, broke multiple ribs. Yeah. I don't think it was with an axe because that would have been mentioned, but like he beat his father. And he probably would be a lot more injured if he was an axe.

Holy shit, like I'm imagining him just like beating the fuck out of his dad. Oh definitely. Or like grabbing like a pipe or like a bar or like something like that. Oh my fuck. Yeah, to break just several of like your father's ribs. That's crazy. Yeah. Now, I'm not sure like the dynamic between the parents and the son, but like he was a violent child. He grew up as a violent person.

And at one point, James was also hospitalized after overdosing with over-the-counter painkillers, and he was diagnosed with catatonic schizophrenia. Fuck. [♪ Music playing. Fade out. Fade in. Fade out. Fade in.] So yeah, he was diagnosed with... Ah. Catatonic schizophrenia. Okay.

And he later said that it was all an act created by his family to avoid him being drafted to fight in the Vietnam War. That actually kind of makes sense. But at the same time, having such a violent child, wouldn't you want to send him away? That's true. Which, I mean, would then kind of support the argument a bit more that, like, it was just an act. Yeah, maybe. I don't know. But also, like, they went pretty crazy. And, like, it wasn't just, like, a report. Like, the dad and mom, like, actually got, like, the wasn't just like a report. Like the dad and mom like actually got,

like the dad actually got beaten. Yeah, he sustained injuries. Like there was a whole case about that. And then the mom was chased around with an axe. Yeah. I mean, there was... I don't know if just for like the story, they would actually like beat the father.

Yeah, I mean, there was assault charges for like breaking the dad's ribs. That's crazy. And also like, even if he doesn't get like drafted to go to the Vietnam War, like his life is now ruined. Oh yeah. Because he has this diagnosis and he is seen as this violent person. Yeah. So either way, it's a lose-lose.

Yeah, it's interesting. Yeah. So either way, it's a lose-lose. Yeah, it's interesting. Weird. But despite all his troublesome behavior, he actually did pretty well in school. That's surprising. Yeah, because usually, whatever happens at home translate to school as well. Yeah.

But he ended up graduating high school, and he ended up attending the University of Missouri. And it would be at the University of Missouri where he would meet his future wife, Leanne. So he got married and he lived a normal life. That's crazy. Okay. If you could call it normal, remember he's on the run. Yeah. Now... Oh yeah.

Yeah, it's why we're talking about... Yeah. As normal as life could be. For him. It was said that they were very devoted to each other and they worked as bookkeepers for a tax service. Once again, not a permanent thing because Lewis ended up like exploding over like a trivial matter.

So they kind of went from job to job type of thing. Now that's when the couple decided that, you know, if we can't work for people, let's start our own business. So they start their own taxation business in Kansas City. And this is where someone new comes into the picture. Raymond West became a client of theirs. Raymond West, okay. Now, Raymond was a 72 year old retired truck driver.

Okay. And he lived alone. And on Monday, July 24th, 1978, a missing persons report was filed on his behalf by a friend who just noticed that his car was in the garage of the home, but that there was no answer from the home when the door would be knocked. So this was 78? Yes.

1978. This was roughly about four years before the tunnel poisoning happened. Okay. So we're getting some backstory of who this man was. Yeah. Now, there was a note on the door, and the door simply said, Ray is out of town until Thursday. For further, call Jim. Who's Jim?

They're their tax person. Got it. Jay. Yeah. Got it. Got it. Got it. Got it.

James Jim, his name changes a lot. Got it, got it, got it, got it. James, Jim, his name changes a lot. But the police forced themselves into the home, and they found another letter on the coffee table. And this letter read, Don't disturb until after 1pm. Sleeping late. Raymond. Why was that just sitting there? What does that mean? Well, a few things. First off, this was not in his handwriting. Okay. Big piece of info.

Yeah. And he also didn't call himself... Raymond. He probably called himself what, Ray? Probably Ray, yeah. Or something. Raymond. You probably got yourself what, Ray? Probably Ray, yeah. Or something. So three weeks later, on Saturday, August 14th, the police conducted a second search of Raymond's house.

And during the second search, they discovered a foul odor and they ended up discovering bloody bedsheets in the bedroom. Once again. Why didn't they check the first time? I'm not sure if it was just because the friend was the one that went into the house or I'm not sure how it went down, but it took them a while to find what they found.

And once again, we always give her content warnings, so this is your second one. But they also found a bloodstained lawn chair and a trash bag that contained Raymond's toupee and his eyeglasses. And then upstairs, they found a footlong stain running from ceiling down to the wall. And their officers made their way into the attic. Now, here... So there was like a blood stain going from up on the ceiling and it came down the wall.

You know, like blood... And like above was like an attic going up. That's crazy. Okay, so officers made their way up. So that's when they went up to the attic and they found Raymond's decomposed and dismembered body. Now, the body was partially wrapped in sheets and garbage bags. It's gonna get a little bit graphic, but his legs had been severed at the hip.

Fuck. At the hip joint. Fuck. And they were placed along his head. Like sticking out? I'm not sure if they were kind of like here or like sticking out or, but they were in the head area. Weird.

Now, in addition to this, investigators discovered that $5,000 had been withdrawn from his bank account and paid to James Lewis, their tax person, and James Lewis was promptly arrested. Now $5,000 back in that day in 2024, it would be about $23,000, 24. So a lot of money being put in that check, you know, red flags. Now when they arrested James, he said that the $5,000 was a business expansion loan, which was strange because Raymond was known to be tight with money and didn't really loan money out to people. So James was released from police custody because they really didn't have anything at

the time. And they searched his home and car, and that's where they found 20 feet of knotted white rope, a garbage bag, and a black case that contained papers and checks with Raymond's name on them. So, James was arrested, he was charged with Raymond's murder, a crime which he denied, of course. Yeah. And on October 1979, with only a few days before his trial was to begin, James' defense

counsel argued that the police had no probable cause to arrest James. And that in addition to this, he wasn't read his Miranda rights at the time of the arrest. Oh my god. Now, he also argued that as Raymond's cause of death was unknown, yeah, of course, he was able to line up a series of witnesses to testify for Raymond. That Raymond had high blood pressure and a potent medication regiment. You know, both of which could have been responsible for his death. However, of course, this did not explain why his legs were severed and placed by his head. Yeah. Yeah, you know, I think the overwhelming evidence

of how he died is shown right there by the fact that his body was dismembered and stuffed up in the attic. Yeah. I don't think drugs will do that. No. I don't think medication will do that. Sorry to tell ya, but... No. That's crazy. Unfortunately, in the end, because you know, I don't think medication will do that. Sorry to tell ya, but... Now...

That's crazy. Unfortunately, in the end, because, you know, it's all about due process, and if, you know, like, his Miranda rights were not read, there was no probable cause for the arrest, the case was dismissed. So the lawyer got it thrown out. Yep. He did his job. What the fuck?

Which, you know, good for him, but at the same time, like, at this point, you're like, it's my job, but like, what's my moral obligation? That's a side note, Tana. That's what I've always thought about, like, criminal defense lawyers. Like, how do you morally defend somebody who you know is guilty? Yeah. morally defend somebody who you know is guilty. And I mean technically it's like innocent until proven guilty, but it's like a lot of times the person will literally like tell and like come like tell that they committed that they crammed to their lawyer and then it's like you have to defend this person. It's crazy to me. No, it really is very interesting how like where does that line like lie?

Where like Morally I cannot take your case, but like legally I could represent you type of thing. It's always, I've always found that interesting as well. So they had like evidence, but the evidence wasn't ruled, wasn't, the lawyer argued that it wasn't enough to give probable cause. Yeah, and because he wasn't read his Miranda rights, I don't know if there was a search warrant or not, like they could have just dismissed all that evidence because it was like illegally obtained.

I mean, okay, technically, like the first time they entered into the home was fine because they got a call from a neighbor. But like the second time they entered it, I guess technically there was no reasonable suspicion. Well, I'm talking about like when they searched like James' truck and they found like all this stuff. Got it. Got it, got it. Yeah. Yes, wait, okay. So what was their, like, I guess, yeah, what was the reasonable suspicion to search the truck?

Well, I mean, the reason, I guess it was like the $5,000 that was written out for like James. Yeah, but like, but like is, I guess the lawyer could have argued like that wasn't enough. Yeah. In a way, so. So, anyway. Yeah. In a way. So... So, anyway. You know, the case was dismissed.

And of course, Jim, James, and Leanne packed their lives and they moved to Chicago. They changed their names to Nancy and Robert Richardson. And the neighbors knew them as Bob and Nancy. So... to Nancy and Robert Richardson. And the neighbors knew them as Bob and Nancy. So. Well, Bob and Nancy, the new kids on the block. Yeah. Now, like always, it starts off quite normal. In Chicago, they seem to live a normal life,

even when like Jim was bouncing between jobs. And soon, trouble started again. Because this was when Leanne started working as a bookkeeper for Frederick Miller McKay. McKee. Which was the person that's bank accounts was close. Who ripped his workers from their final paycheck. Once again he was an heir to the Miller-Bruin fortune.

So we're all caught up from the past, right? So what ended up happening between Leanne and him was that her final check bounced for $512. And when Jim found out that the check had bounced, he reacted violently. Even though Jim didn't work for the company, he was still angry about it. And because they've always lived paycheck to paycheck, those $512 might have really screwed them over. Really? Yeah. So on September 6, 1982, under several different names, Jim and Leanne fled to Manhattan. And they checked into a board, and Leanne got a job on the 20th, which meant that they were never going to return to Chicago Chicago because now they had a job in Manhattan. Now, Jim's main defense as to why he couldn't have committed

the Tylenol murder, like let's get back on track, was because he couldn't have committed them. Wait, Jim or Bob? Huh? Jim or Bob? Remember how he changed names quickly? It's Jim. Okay. The neighbors knew them as Bob and Nancy. Jim or Bob? Remember how he changed names quickly? It's Jim.

The neighbors knew them as Bob and Nancy. Got it. But then he changed again to Jim. Yeah. Okay. Okay, got it. Even though like his name is James. Yeah, he went from like James to Jim to Bob. It just hops all over the place. Okay, it bounced around.

Now... to Bob, it just hops all over the place. To Jim, to Bob, okay, it bounced around, okay. Yeah. Now, the excuse that Jim used, like his defense, that he couldn't have committed the Tylenol murders was that he was in Manhattan on the 20th. He was living with his wife because she had just received a new job and he couldn't have traveled. There was no motivation for him to poison people. But a former Johnson & Johnson senior executive

told ABC News that many close to the case flew into Chicago. One of the clues could have been that he flew to Chicago, distributed the contaminated pills into the pharmacies, and then booked it out of town. But there was really no evidence. They just had the name. They're like, oh, he wrote the letter to Johnson & Johnson. We have to like bring him in and question him and get everything we can out of him. we have to like bring him in and question him and get everything we can out of him. Now, on October 13th, a warrant was put out for Jim's arrest.

Jim James. And then he told Leanne about the ransom note that he wrote. You know, he came clean to his wife. He told, hey, Leanne, I wrote a letter trying to frame your old boss. And Leanne was shocked and she was angry Now by Yeah, of course you would because you're like you did what? You did what? Yeah, fuck you now by mid-october

Their photos were broadcast nationwide So their photos were broadcast nationwide. So. So everyone knew what they looked like. Exactly, so staying hidden was getting harder and harder for them. And two weeks into like them being at this hotel, the owner confronts Jim. But he doesn't know really from why or where,

he just says that Jim looks oddly familiar. And that was more than enough to get Jim and Leanne to change their names again. And they fled. Where'd they go to this song? So we'll get into it. So they changed their names to Edward and Carol Scott. Okay. Now... Kind of fun.

Yeah. But a few days later, one of Liane's coworkers recognized her at their new location wherever they moved and called the police. So it's like, hey, my coworker, I think she's the person you're looking for. So did they then change their names and move again? So this is what happened. The coworker called the police, letting the police know that they were located in New York. And that's when hundreds of cops and FBI agents arrived at the hotel.

They combed every inch. But you're right, they were gone. They left again. That's crazy. They had everything in their trash bag ready to go. Now, while this whole chase was happening, there was a break in the town hall case. Because there was actually some footage of Paula Prince, the seventh victim. She was at a checkout line in Walgreens.

And there was a man wearing a lab coat in the background watching Paula. Now, however, the image was of course grainy, but they could tell that the man was wearing a lab coat. his grainy, but they could tell that the man was wearing a lab coat. He was not wearing glasses, he had short hair, and he had a large bushy beard. Now they don't have more to go about this man, they just know that he looks suspicious. Because he was looking at Paula like very int very intently and They're like is he looking at her because she grabbed a tunnel bottle Now FBI behavioral profiler

Believed that the title murder would try to stay ahead of his investigation Yeah, I make sense, you know, which is what Jim James could have been doing. And they were like, hey, if he doesn't live in Chicago, because he's on, you know, fleeing from the crime scene, he can't read local newspapers. So there's only one place where he would be able to read the newspapers, the libraries. That's so smart. Yeah. As soon as I read that, I was like, oh, you're right. I was like, this is like the 1980s. Yep. Yep. So finally, on December 13th,

a library employee spotted someone suspicious. Now, while the suspect was like hunched over like in a little study area in the New York City Public Library, the librarian worker, like they called the police, two feral agents entered and they approached him from behind. They tapped him on the shoulder and it turns out that it was Jim. Yeah! After like a freaking full gooch's chase. Let's go! Jim simply rose up knowing that his time was up. He put on his glasses, and he was ready to get those handcuffs on him.

And then he was ready to get those handcuffs on him. Now, after he was arrested, the day after, Leanne turned herself in as well. Once again, most likely because Jim got caught. Yeah, I mean, she was, you know, probably just, you know, following after him, following his lead. And so he gets caught, well, what am I gonna do now? Exactly. So I mean, how is she gonna flee if he was like the brains of fleeing and all of that yeah now after

supposedly unhelpful interrogations Liane was released since authorities virtually had nothing to connect her to the Tylenol murders directly they had things for Jim but not for Liane so she was released as for Jim, but not for Leanne. So she was released. As for Jim, they were able to connect him to Johnson & Johnson's by that extortion letter. And he was charged with attempt extortion. Attempt? Yes. Because, you know.

Okay. So almost a year later, his trial began. Now, the defense didn't actually aim to get money. The defense stated that Jim slash Jane slash this man didn't actually aim to get money from Johnson & Johnson. And therefore, he wasn't guilty of extortion. Because the bank account was like already closed. Johnson & Johnson and therefore he wasn't guilty of extortion because the bank account was like already closed. That's dumb but okay. Now this is where we get some you know I don't know justice the lead prosecutor and the US

attorney Dan Webb he wasn't gonna let him get off that easily. Good. So he said, and I quote, The man who wrote the letter was mean. He was vicious. The man who was insensitive to human suffering. The man who was an evil, depraved opportunist on his own behalf. That man is you, James Lewis." End quote. So they all clearly had strong feelings towards this man. Yeah. And with that being said, the jury took

several hours and they found that 37 year old Jimmy, or Jim, I don't know why I called him Jimmy. Jimmy, Jim, James, Bob. They found Jim guilty of a tempted extortion and he faced 20 years behind bars. So I guess that makes sense because they technically only got him for the extortion and not for the murders. Yeah, so this is what ended up happening in the next couple years. He was released in 1955 on parole. And he returned to his other half, Leanne.

She was still waiting for him. And in 2010, Jim was forced to submit his DNA to investigators, you know, but nothing came out of it. So he was Jim, James is not the Tylenol Poisoner, murderer. The question still remains, who is responsible for the Tylenol Poisoner, murderer, the question still remains, who is responsible for the Tylenol murders? Now, over the years that- So he's never been found? He's never been found. So it wasn't James?

No, he was just someone that was really, really like closely connected to it. They went after him, but nothing really connected him to the Tylenol murders, just the extortion letter. That's crazy. That's crazy. Now throughout the years the task force has dwindled down in numbers and it now has around 20 agents. It has really gone into a cold case to this day. But to this day, the FBI still has the Tylenol case as an open case. So any leads from anyone, send them their way.

There's multiple theories as well as of who was responsible. Some people think, and we can do a whole deep dive into more of the theories because some people think that he was... Shoot, I forgot the name, but there was a bomber at the time as well. And because he got caught and trialed for bombing, he was never connected to the Tylenol case. Other people... Oh, but they're like, oh, it could have been the same person, but they just... They put him behind bars for a different reason. Yeah.

There's plenty of theories out there. Plenty of them. person but they just they put him behind bars for a different reason yeah there's plenty of theories out there plenty of them unfortunately this did lead to a lot of like copycats because then other foods start to be tampered with and of course that's when like the companies were like we gotta like have everything be like anti tamper. Good on them. However, not really good on them because why didn't they do it sooner after? I think it's after the title. It's so stupid, but it reminds me of a story. I don't know where I heard this from. If it was like a video somewhere online or

from someone, but they're like, it's one of those stupid rules that like was put in place because something happened. You know, like there was never tampering. So there was never like a reason to like have them be like anti-tampering. The story I'm thinking of is that there was like, someone was talking about like Girl Scouts camp or something, or like some sort of like summer camp. And they're like, oh yeah, just like don't paint your nails any Bright colors like your toenails and they're like, why is that a rule? And and they're like a couple years ago like some girl painted her nail like before the rule some girl painted her like nails like bright red type of thing and

She like put her feet in like the river and like a crab or something sir to like nibble at her feet Like try to eat it cuz it was like a berry or something. It to like nibble at her feet, like try to eat it, because it thought it was like a berry or something. It's like a fish or something like that. So it's like, it's a stupid like rule, but it's there for like a reason. Yeah. Yeah. But that's the case of Tylenol, the Tylenol murders.

I hope you enjoyed it. That's crazy. I know. It was a roller coaster for it to be a cold case. I was so ready to be like, and then that, you know, that led to him being connected with the murderers and he explained why he did it and what happened, how he did it. So it was never found. So the guy who in that that camera footage who was wearing that lab coat, so that was not James? I don't think it was

James because I have to see a picture of James and then I have to like look for that footage because they said that he wasn't wearing glasses and James was when he was caught at the library but he could have just taken him off for that moment or something. Once again, he was just like a suspect. I mean, he seems like a smart enough person, but not necessarily like, I guess, smart or cunning enough to like do those Tylenol. No, definitely not.

The reason- Like it feels like a different like MO, different person. Yeah, the reason he got involved was because his wife got screwed over so yeah that's when he got involved that's so interesting yeah so hope you liked it what do you have for us I did that was good Give me a second longer to process. No, yeah, go for it. I did a lot of research into this one and there's podcasts out there that have like four or five parts on the Talanel murders. They go in depth. There's a few documentaries as well. I

listen to as much as I could but at some point like my brain just can't focus because it deviates so much into the theories. Yeah and I'm like no we definitely could just have another second part of this and just talk about theories. Yeah. And you could share more of that. That would be fun. Listeners, if you want more theories of the Tylenol murders, reach out. Let us know if you have theories of your own. Yes. Reach out. Let us know.

Tell us what you think your theory was. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Tell us what you think of the Tylenol murders because that was a huge case. Cool. So, for my paranormal case today, our case takes us to Southington, Connecticut, which is a really funny name. Southington? Southington. Yeah. So, Southington, Connecticut. It's a small, cozy town. It's close to being right in the center of Connecticut, like on the map. The people, of course, you know, they were close-knit, like most

small towns are. Already side note. I want to know what it's like to live in a small town, to be honest, because I feel like it'd be so interesting to like just know everybody. I don't know. I don't know if I can like... I don't think I'd prefer it, but I want to know what it's like. Yeah, I don't know if I can relate to it because I technically grew up in a small town, but I was a child. We moved away when I was like nine years old. So as a nine-year-old, a small town doesn't feel like a small town to you. It's like a big city.

And then we moved. So yeah, I don't think I've ever lived in a small town either. Yeah. So it was like most other small towns, you know. Not too much happened until 1986, when a new family moved into town. And what would happen next would send the community into a frenzy.

Southington would now be filled with chaos that had never been seen before. I feel like I know this story, but I don't know it until you say the name. You probably do. I mean, it might just sound familiar, like every story starts like this, like everything changed when this one family moved down the block. It does. It does. Everything changed. Oh my god. It's the plotline for a horror movie. That's basically what it is.

So it pretty much is. That's how so many of them are. So our story, it revolves around the Snedeker family. Spelled S-N-E-D-E-K-E-R. Snedeker. Snedeker. At least that's how I pronounce it. Okay. But yeah, about them, it revolves around them. so I'll get started with a bit about them.

The Snetikers didn't really have it easy. They struggled a lot. Their family was very busy, but also had a lot to take care of. The parents, the kids as well. So the father, his name was Alan. Alan was a stonemason, really a former stonemason. He was kind of retired at this point, but he did struggle with alcoholism for a bit. Which was the stress that came from it. Yeah.

Never mind, keep going. Because I'm confused stone mason with free mason. But you're good, keep going. I do it all the time. He built things. He didn't practice cult religion. Anyway, well maybe he did. On the side. Yeah.

He was a stone mason, he was a stonemason and a freemason. So, Alan, he was the father. Carmen, the mother, was also just barely scraping by as a waitress while she was in between jobs. So, their financial situation wasn't great, especially living in upstate New York. And especially because of the fact that they had five kids to support. Oh shit, I was going to ask you if they had any kids. Five kids!

Allen and Carmen, five kids. So four of them were their own. So they had four children of their own. Philip, Bradley, Allen Jr., and Jennifer. And the fifth was Carmen's niece, Tammy. Oh, so only four of them were like their kids. Yes, four biological children and then one niece who lived with them.

So, Alan and Carmen had a lot on their plate, and of course the kids could feel that too. Especially when the oldest son, Philip, was diagnosed with Hodgkin's lymphoma. A type of lymphatic cancer. He was around 12 or 13, I believe. Yeah. So, it was pretty bad. He got diagnosed.

He got diagnosed. And because of this, the family had to travel a lot down to the University of Connecticut hospital for Phillips treatment. I was going to ask, was that for the treatment? Yeah, it was for his treatment, the only place they could really go. And so they would often a lot of times, you know, their family, they'd go down there. And this was in the 1980s or 1990s? Yes, 1980s, around 1985, 1986. Yeah.

Of course, this was way too tiring, way too time consuming, and the money spent from just going back and forth was way too much. So the family decided they needed to move closer to the hospital, right? So the search for a new home began. They definitely did some looking around, some searching, and so the Sneddickers, they looked for a home,

and to their surprise and excitement, they found an amazing deal on a five-bedroom, two-bathroom home located at 208 Meriden Avenue. This sounds very familiar. I can't put my finger on it. And it's not at the tip of my tongue. It just sounds familiar. But go ahead. Okay. So they found a home located there, Southington, Connecticut. And so of course, they jumped at the opportunity. It was a great price. It was surprisingly affordable compared to living in New York.

And on June 30th, 1986, they moved into the house. So we're right about in the middle of 1986 or so. It was nice. You know, Philip was able to get the care he needed a lot quicker. They were way closer. It was a decent price. It was space for all of them. The five bedrooms were good.

It was sort of like a duplex, like multiple multiple like two. I think it was two stories. Okay So it was it was a decent, you know, I mean five rooms two bathrooms. That's a big house Yeah, and I'll definitely send some pictures later and we can post those as well Yeah moving in was a smooth process, you know, everyone chose the rooms that they wanted The older sons Philip and and Bradley, they chose to move in together because they they both chose to live down in the basement of the house. Oh okay wait so the family is seven. Yes. So that means okay wait I'm just trying to figure out how the room situation went

because like the husband and wife have one room. One for the husband and wife, one for Philip and Bradley, the basement, one for the other son, what's his name, Alan Jr. One for Jennifer and one for Tammy. So by five bedrooms, is the basement the bed, like also consider a bedroom? I guess so. Or did they have a guest bedroom, an office space? It's fine.

I guess the basement would be considered a bedroom or like, or I don't know. Maybe maybe yeah they maybe they just had an extra yeah like a guest room they're like yeah well you know what no I think it makes sense because if they have one bedroom for two kids they're like it's too small for both of us can we do the basement that's that makes more sense. I mean, in some reports, I don't believe it is, but in some reports, it lists only like Philip, the oldest son, as living down in the basement. And if that were the case, then maybe Bradley could have taken the extra bedroom. So maybe at some point they slept together and then at another point they split. Okay. Got it.

But honestly, a pretty cool choice. I think living down in a basement like gives them like some good privacy. And then I was, it was so funny. I was reading an article and they're like, oh, we don't really know why. It was like, you know, maybe because of the teenage angst or the need for being alone or being in the darkness or since Philip was so, you know, with his cancer and he was so weak, he just wanted to be like alone in the basement. I just thought it was funny how they were so... Interesting how people have like their theories of why he was in the basement. I guess so, yeah. I think it could be just a combination of things, you know? I think it's kind of cool.

He was a kid and he thought it would be cool to live in the the basement especially because I think the basement would be larger than like the bedroom Yeah, and yeah, he was he was about about Let's say 16 at this point No, what 73 No, he? 73... No, he was about 13 or 14 at this point, I believe. Okay. Yeah. Anyway... That's where he slept.

Yeah. So they moved down into the basement. But what they weren't expecting to find, though, was the hidden collection of old mortuary equipment down there? So, tools that were found, go ahead. This sounds oddly familiar. You can, um, decline to answer this question, but was there a movie made from this story? You could just move on. Okay. Yes.

Okay, keep going. I still don't know what the story is, but like it's like... Okay. Got it. So yeah, they found a bunch of old, like outdated mortuary equipment that was just sort of like stored, semi-hidden, down in the basement. There was more exploring to do. And so they looked around the house, they checked in the old drawers that were left behind when they purchased the home, and sure enough inside they saw photographs of the deceased, people being prepared for funerals, for burials.

There was a coffin room with pieces of old coffins. Like a functioning, like mortuary? Is that the word? Exactly, yeah. Coffin pieces that startled them and on some extended parts of the property there were gravestones, which of course marked where, you know, bodies had been buried. See, as a child I would find that scary, but now I would find that kind of cool.

I would still think it's like a bit of both today, I think. Yeah. But yeah, you called it, you know. The Snedekers had unknowingly moved into the town's old funeral home, the Hallahan Funeral Home. And that's why they got such a good deal on it. That makes sense. Because it was this closed down funeral home.

And this economy. I would take it as well. Literally. Literally. And they were financially struggling, so it was like easy choice for them. Yeah. But yeah. So, of course they checked with the home's like previous owner, who sure enough confirmed it used to be the Hallahan Funeral Home.

They were essentially like, they were a tad iffy with it at first, but they were like, we've already committed. We already bought this place and really it's not that bad of a thing. We're close, we can get our son his treatment that he needs. So it didn't really deter this, and that occurs, they continued living there. Yeah, it's all pros versus cons, especially when it comes to children's health.

Exactly, yeah. So yeah, that didn't deter them, but neither did the small signs of paranormal activity that would begin shortly after they moved in. Yeah. What does it start with? So some reports say things started as soon as the first night that they moved in.

Okay, like right off the bat. Welcome home. Right off the bat. Welcome inside. But, starting out pretty tame, right? It always does. Nothing crazy at first. It always does.

It always escalates. Anyway, it would quickly escalate. But yeah, it started out pretty tame. Just weird, bizarre sounds were described. Things like, you know, bangings on the walls, knocking, scratching sounds coming from all over the house. There was a dumb waiter in the house. It was a big dumb waiter because it was used to bring bodies down to the basement. Was it like big like you would lay a body in there? I honestly

haven't really seen it. Let me see. Because normally they're they're quite small. Small, yeah. If you can't find it, it's fine. Yeah, I don't know. I'll definitely check and I'll show you in a bit. Yeah. But it was a large one. Like people could fit in there. A person could fit in there, yeah, body or something. But yeah, it was, you know, not used. There was nothing in it, but sometimes the chains would kind of rattle, clamber up and down as if something maybe was, you know was pushing it up and down a bit.

It turned into more things. The kids, they reported that they would see lights flickering on and off. They would even see ghosts walking through the house. Ah, so there was that apparition early on. There was, yeah. But, of course, Carmen, their mom, their parents, you know, they... She chalked it up to their overactive imaginations. Eccentric. Eccentric. Eccentric. Eccentric. Eccentric. Eccentric. Eccentric.

Eccentric. Eccentric. Eccentric. Eccentric. Eccentric. Eccentric. Eccentric. Eccentric.

Eccentric. Eccentric. Eccentric. Eccentric. Eccentric. Eccentric. Eccentric. Eccentric.

Eccentric. Eccentric. Eccentric. Eccentric. Eccentric. Eccentric. children, whatever. I can see how someone would write that off as like, oh, kids are just being kids because we live. 100%, honestly, I would probably write that off. We live in a haunted house type of thing. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Alan, their dad, he got so upset at their misuse

of the electricity because he thought they were the ones turning on the lights and stuff, but he actually just started to remove light bulbs from the house. No, that's such a bad thing to do though. That is such a bad thing to do, right? I had super funny. But of course, things were a little less innocuous, I guess. Things I could feel like the temperature dropping.

They said that it could be like the middle of July, the middle of the summer, one room in the house would just be ice cold. They'd go to the room next over and it would just be a normal room temperature. You know, these like piercing coldnesses, they would disappear as quickly as they... As quickly as it happened, in a way.

Yeah. Okay. Eventually, they did start to, I guess, see more, more detailed apparitions that would show up. There was a hallway that led down to the coffin room, I believe. And so pretty early on, pretty early on, it was sort of Philip, the oldest son, who started to have more of the experience.

Because he was also sleeping in the basement, right? He was sleeping in the basement, you know, he was, you know, a bit, I guess, weaker because of cancer and his treatments and everything like that. It also makes sense that if they were both sleeping in the basement and like things start to act up, the other one might have gotten scared, like, I'm going to move into the bedroom. That could be true. That could be true, yeah. sir to act up. The other one might have gotten scared, like, I'm going to move into the bedroom. That could be true. That could be true. Yeah. Okay. It was actually described that Philip started to see, um, there's actually, so there was a, there was a documentary, um, filmed in 2002 about this with actual, like, interview questions and

talking to, um, Carmen, the mom. And so in some of these interviews, she stated, quote, my son started seeing this young man with long black hair down all the way to his hips. He would talk to my son every day. Sometimes he would threaten him. Other times he would stand there and just say his name, which was enough to scare him.

The kid's name, like Philip. Philip, yeah. I don't like that. Philip. No, me neither. I don't like how you know my name. No, seriously. However, kind of related to that, I thought it was kind of cool when I heard my name from

the spirit box. Oh, fair, fair. When we were doing the investigation, the high-kai was really cool. No, that's definitely cool though. I was like, hey. Um... See, but at that point, it's different. Because at that point, like, you're actively wanting to hear something.

This kid was just trying to probably, like, sleep or something. Yeah. So there was that one apparition, you know, the tall, pale, long, dark hair. There was another one, another form of a man who's described as having whitish colored hair, wearing a pinstripe tuxedo, who would be in the house. So multiple apparitions of different ghosts. Multiple apparitions that would show up, and these were most commonly, if only, seen by Philip here in the house. Do you know if they were seen in the basement or other parts of the house? I think parts of the house. I think lots of the long hallways or even the corridor leading down to the coffin room.

So it wasn't just because he was in the basement, he was seeing them everywhere. No, yeah, it was throughout the house. And like also with the other kids who were seeing things as well, it was all throughout, all the sounds all throughout and everything. Yeah. So it was just apparitions, just visual things, I guess,

except for maybe a bit of the physical with the temperature or the coldness. Or like hearing like the chains rattle, things like that. just visual things, I guess, except for maybe a bit of the physical with the temperature or the coldness. Or like hearing like the chains rattle, things like that. Until there was one evening when Carmen, the mom, she said she was taking a shower, and the shower curtain began to cling to her body. Ahhhhhhhhhh! Yep. Yeah. So she claimed that it like clung to it and wrapped itself and eventually kind of like constricted.

I already have like- In a way like her face and like choked her a bit. No, I already have like a hate relationship with like shower curtains. Especially like when they touch you. Yeah, no, yeah. Oh, the feeling is just gross and it's like, oh, what's up? No. So the fact that, no.

Okay, go ahead. Yeah. It's like when Calum got wrapped up in the rug. It's all over again. And then he got cold. And then he did. It's a shower curtain. Oh my god. It hits too close to home. And apparently, apparently like she got wrapped up and then like she got blinded by shampoo.

Yeah, okay. Because she was, you know, washing her hair. Eventually, Tammy sort of like was able to hear like the muffled Okay, so Tammy her niece and so she ran in and she like unwrapped the curtain from her And it's you know, neither could explain. Yeah, so Tammy saw her like fully wrapped up with the Apparently as as the as the recount goes. Yeah So this wasn't just like... I think that's scary from both sides though.

Isolated. That's scary because you're getting suffocated by your shower curtain and that's scary because you run into the bathroom and you see your aunt being like all wrapped up and like struggling. Yeah. Wow. It just got worse. Is it rugs now?

Carmen kept getting... Hopefully not. Carmen kept getting assaulted by whatever this unseen force was. So attacks, very forcefully said she was like slapped in the face So the Sun was seen all the apparitions and then Carmen was suffering all the physical damage Yes, okay. Yeah I actually have Sort of a

Quote let me see I Sort of a quote, let me see. I guess not necessarily a quote, but like it's very commonly described or I want to say that I read somewhere that Carmen said that she repeatedly was like, like raped and assaulted by whatever this unsealed source was. What? Um. Like full- whoa. Okay, so things definitely jump at some point. Wow.

Yeah. No, and it gets crazy. Um, so, and this happens almost like on a daily basis it, from what I've gathered. Yeah. Um... And so they just kind of let this happen. Like, they didn't, like, run. They didn't leave the house. I mean, when you purchase a house, it's a huge commitment. And because they're struggling financially, I can see why they couldn't.

But at the same time, she is getting physically assaulted, sexually assaulted in her own home by like an unseen force. Yeah. Like the one place you're supposed to feel safe. It's your home. And I know like we've covered other cases of like being living in a haunted house or even like, like in one of our TikToks we did covering like the Condrey house and it was like, oh you moved into your dream home and you realize

it's not it's like it's a nightmare i'm out of there immediately like i'm leaving like i'm not staying but yeah Carmen she said she was she was too scared to actually report any of this. Like, she never told her husband or anything. Because how do you tell your partner? How do you tell your husband, like, hey, I know we moved here for the kids treatment, but I've been getting assaulted by this invisible thing in the house. Like, first off, you have to like, assume that he's not gonna believe you. And then she probably assumed something else

and then she's like, I'll just keep it to myself. Yeah, cause from what I've read, it doesn't seem like anything happened to Alan, to the dad. Oh. Like, and neither, nothing happened to Alan, nothing, I guess... Nothing happened to Alan, nothing... I guess really happened like paranormal to like Jennifer, the sister. Or Alan Jr.

Or at least no like described direct experiences from them. Tammy though, did claim that she was assaulted one time. This is where like a rug kind of comes into in. No! I was joking about that. Well it's more of a quilt from her bed. But she described that a quilt from her bed, it just levitated all the way up to the ceiling in her room. She saw figures manifest a figures manifest with unexplained whispering as well while she was in her room. But nothing like super major, I think, that happened with Tammy.

That's wild though. Yeah. Yeah. So go ahead. Philip and Carmen got it the worst, but things got really, really bad for Philip. Because at some point, his family and Carmen described him as just having a bizarre, sudden change in personality. Like withdrawal?

He, Like he... He became mean and cruel and cold. Oh. And really it was just not like him uncharacteristically like him. So that along with... Everything else? Other things, with other experiences, it just started to get worse. It felt like there was more evil and the terror happened.

There was one time when Carmen, mom, she said she was mopping the floor inside. The water, it turned into blood and it just smelled like rotting flesh. She said, quote, the mop water was blood red. I mean a deep, deep red. It made my skin crawl. I started getting nervous that I was ruining the floor.

I can picture like a brownish red. That's what I picture. Yeah. So, you know, things got worse. And apparently with Philip's behavior and his, his cruelty, that cruelty went over into like punishments for his younger siblings. No. Um, yeah.

So, um, apparently one time Philip put Bradley on like a gurney, like a medical gurney, you know, funeral home, and just like spun him around just endlessly until Bradley was like in tears begging him to stop. Philip would lock Bradley like in a chest and just leave him there. Um, but probably the worst case, the worst incident was when Philip directly just attacked Tammy, his cousin. Like just start, like beating her up? Yeah, I'm not exactly sure what happened, but um, attacked her, she was so badly injured that she had to spend 45 days in the hospital.

Holy fuck. Yeah. That's severe. A lot. A lot of time. Yeah. No, 100%. It's crazy.

So, that happened. Of course, because of what happened with Philip, his behavior couldn't be ignored anymore. He was like psychologically evaluated. He was brought in. He was diagnosed with schizophrenia. After he kind of described sort of the visions, the apparitions, the entities that he was seeing. And they start seeing his behavior as well. Exactly. But the thing was... the medication and such that he was on from his treatments, they weren't necessarily things that could trigger hallucinations

or like triggers schizophrenia or anything like that. But still, it was just... it was weird. But it got bad. It got bad. things felt evil. It got so bad that they needed help. The Sneddickers needed help. So, who'd they bring in? Ghostbusters.

Of that time, yeah. Um, Ed and then Rene. Ah! Yeah. Of that time, yeah. Um, Ed and Lorraine. AHHHHH! Yeah. Okay. Okay. Good. Yeah. So. They brought in some professionals. Ed and Lorraine did investigate the professionals.

They're very controversial. But for this story, professionals. Yeah. This isn't one of their bigger cases. Honestly, this was a pretty small thing. So, Carmen called the Warrens, letting them know of the situation. So the next day, the Warrens arrived at their house, along with a priest.

So, there was like a, you know, a general blessing, like exorcism type of thing on the house. It happened September 6, 1988. So two years after they moved into the house. Okay. So the... So they had been putting up with this for two years and it just kept getting worse and worse. Yep, the experiences happened a lot, yeah. So they brought in the Warrens and that initial blessing did nothing. If anything, it's gonna make whatever is there more mad. Yeah. So like the Warrens do, they did their research, right?

They of course found out that it was a funeral home. It was built in the 1920s. And so the Warrens, they stayed at the house for over the span of a couple of weeks, you know, to try to figure out these experiences for themselves. So what they found out was that one of the funeral workers, back when it was still a funeral home, supposedly was convicted of committing necrophilia in the morgue, like in probably the basement or something like that.

Yeah, oh, that's dark. Oh. Yeah. And they sort of theorized that it could have been attached to some sort of like satanic ritual or something like that. But the general thing that the Warrens believed was that since it was such a grotesque, heinous act, this necrophilia, right? It sort of like almost was like a satanic type of thing

and it really led and sort of welcomed those satanic entities into the home. Exactly. Yeah, okay. Yeah. Yeah, so they did their investigations. Along with them, they actually also brought their nephew. His name was John, John Zaffis.

John was with them as well. And apparently one of the more crazy, bizarre occurrences was one night John was there and he experienced what was called phantomania so it's essentially sleep paralysis but like as more of a supernatural or paranormal basis to it okay I don't really know how it would differ from sleep paralysis. No you're good yeah that's what I'm trying to figure out as well. So he was experiencing that but at the exact same time apparently I don't really know how it would differ from sleep paralysis. Yeah, that's what I'm trying to figure out as well So he was experiencing that but at the exact same time apparently Carmen was also experiencing the exact same thing and they actually were They were seeing the same visions apparently like at the same time while they are in the house, okay

Interesting yeah they were in the house. Okay. Interesting. Yeah. So there was the more investigations. They continued the warrants they brought up the Bishop of Hartford. One of the people I think I believe that they mainly worked with okay They needed a lot more help so they did a Lot more blessing inside of the home and they actually held a like sacred like mass like a Catholic mass inside Apparently Ed Warren he suffered from a mild heart attack Apparently, Ed Warren, he suffered from a mild heart attack during this. During this? During, yeah. And he believed that it was like the demonic entities that were like attacking Warren.

Oh, yeah, okay. Keep going. So they did the exorcism, or sorry, this big exorcism was the one that happened on September 6 1988 This is the one that apparently was enough to weaken the spirits and sort of drive them out in a way There was not much more Spirit supernatural like parent activity afterwards activity after that and so they felt that it was you know successful they I believe that they described it, just felt lighter inside of the house.

So of course, because of this and the fact that they got the Warrens involved, it began to circulate, right? People picked up on it, the media got a hold of it. People were coming in to try to write books, and people even reached out to the Warrens to get there. Yeah, and I don't think it's involved in the media's right there. Exactly. And so, you know, like I mentioned at the very start, it turned this small, quaint little town into some huge,

whole huge ordeal at this point. That's pretty much where it goes as far as the paranormal. Okay. So there were those things that happened, but I think the most interesting part about this paranormal case to me is the theories behind it. Oh, like what? In particular, one theory as an explanation for all of this, that it was all for attention, right? all something created by leveraging the weakness from Philip and his treatments and things

that maybe he was seeing. And I might have lost one of the quotes, but Yeah, I think I lost it but they said apparently Carmen and like Alan they wouldn't claim that like the the activity got the worse When they were in more financial trouble Huh, so if you could donate and give money to them then things would get get better type of things. Oh, okay, I was gonna follow up that with like, if they benefit financially in any way. Yeah. So they did. Yeah.

See, so that, I would say that theory holds some ground. I just don't know how much. So yeah, let me spend a second just to try to find. Yeah, that's fine. This quote. Go for it. Yeah, let me spend a second just to try to find this quote. Yeah, that's fine. Go for it. Yeah, so they went public with all their experiences. So people thought it was a scheme to make money.

Yeah, attention, the publicity. Or they planned it. You know, you have a sick child, you want some attention, you want someone to help feel bad. Yeah. In some interviews, there are some attention, you want someone to help feel bad, yeah. In some interviews, there are some friends of Philip that were interviewed, it says, and one of them, a man named Jeffrey Pooler,

he said, quote, he was a storyteller. He always had to be the center of attention in reference to Philip. Yeah. So, there was, so after those like exorcisms and the perinatal activity ended, they moved out, the family. So, you know, there were new owners afterwards. And so, there's another quote from the owner of the house in 2009, a woman named Susan Trotter-Smith. She said, quote, we lived in the house for 10 years. Our house is wonderful.

This is all Hollywood foolishness. The stories are all ludicrous. Yeah. So there's things like that. See, and then I feel like, ah, if Ed and Lorraine Warren were not involved and then things died down and they moved out and then this family moved in and they made this comment.

I'm like, yeah, it makes sense that it was like made up. But I have mixed, like because Ed and Lauren Warren got involved, they don't just like take any case. Like they will listen to you, but the fact that they were involved, I don't know how much there is to it. Yeah. One last thing I do want to add onto it though is something I find really funny, really interesting, honestly.

So, one of the big reasons why this story gained popularity and came to light was because a man named Ray Garten, he published a book called In a Dark Place, the Story of a True Haunting. So that was published in 1992. And so there are some interviews on like what he wrote, how he came to have this book written. So Garten, he was actually hired by Ed and Lorraine to work with the Sneddickers, write the story. So, Garden, he was going to interview all of the family members about their experiences, but he realized, quote,

I found that the accounts of the individual Sneddickers didn't quite mesh. They couldn't keep their stories straight. I went to Ed with this problem. I went to Ed with this problem and he says, Ed said, oh, they're crazy. You've got some of the story. Just use what works and make up the rest. Just make it up and make it scary.

Yeah, interesting. Yeah, it's things like that that like make Ed and Lorraine Warren very controversial. I don't know. They're definitely, they were definitely huge in the paranormal world. Yeah. Yeah. I know that they wrote a lot of books. Well, they had like at least three books that they wrote. that they wrote a lot of books. Well, they had like at least three books that they wrote. And because of the profit they were making from the books and people, you know, having them be speakers, that's the reason they were able to like not charge for like their investigations or for like their helping people out. But at the same time, I don't know, there's a lot of mixed feelings

surrounding them. And we'll get into that later. Yeah. But this is about this. Definitely, definitely, yeah. But yeah, so that's what Ed said. And Garden, he continued by saying, he did what he was told. He quote, I used what I could, made up the rest, and tried to make it as scary as I could.

So who knows how true this case is? And I don't know, do you listeners, do you Jay? What do you guys think? Do you think this place was haunted? And what is the movie? The haunting of Connecticut, the haunting in Connecticut. Got it, okay. The Snedeker house, the Snedeker family haunting,

typically the haunting in Connecticut though. Okay. So what do you guys think? Do you think the stories are true? Do you think it was maybe based in some truth, but blown in open proportion by the novelist? Do you think Ed and Lorraine, you know, drama, dramaticized things?

Not sure. It's interesting for sure. It brings- That's the haunting in- I think this is one of those cases that we end up with more questions than answers. And that's fine, you know, like sometimes- Both of our cases today, actually.

Yeah, literally. Yeah, we just end up with more questions than answers and I'm okay with that. Yeah. Because it's all about the journey. I mean, that's like part of okay with that. Yeah. Because it's all about the journey. I mean, that's part of the fun, right? Yeah, it's all about the journey. And I'm okay with that.

This journey looks to be coming to an end. Yeah. Yeah. We got our cases out. Hope you guys enjoyed them. You know the drill. Stay hydrated. Sit up straight. I need to do that right now.

Roll your shoulders back. Get some good posture in. I was gonna say, now you can walk them through the breathing exercises. Smell the roses. Blow out the candle. Yeah. And with that we're off. Have a good night guys.

Thank you so much for being here. Thank you so much for being here. Smurf. Bye! Thanks for listening to Chambers of the Occult. For photos, sources, and anything else mentioned during the episode, check out our website at chambersoftheoccult.com. You'll find everything you need there if you do find yourself wanting more.

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