Chart Music: the Top Of The Pops Podcast - #16: December 22nd 1983 - Hold On, Here Comes Jism

Episode Date: December 15, 2017

The latest edition of the podcast which asks: if the Thompson Twins made you a sandwich, would you want to eat it? It’s Christmas Time, Pop-Crazed Youngsters, but there’s no need to be afraid – because we’re a full year away from any Band Aid rubbishness. It’s the last episode of The Pops before Xmas of 1983, and the studio is festooned with balloons and party hats, making it just like every other episode that year. And what a line-up – sneered at by John Peel and jollied along by Kid Jensen – it isn’t! Musicwise, this is the mankiest Selection Box of teeth-loosening dessicated cat shit we’ve come across in a long while. Out go the Synth-mentalists of a few years ago, and in come in bare-footed, frizz-haired Serious Musicians. Terry and Arfur pop up to flog one of the crappiest Christmas songs ever, a Breakfast TV puppet with johnnies for ears defiles hip-hop, and Paul McCartney has a war with himself. On the plus side, Billy Joel goes back 20 years to leer at some girls having a pyjama party, Slade go back ten years and ignore a couple of Zoo Wankers, and Culture Club put a full orchestra in serious danger.  And the No.1 is properly right-on. Neil Kulkarni and Simon Price join Al Needham for this one, and have a good stare through the window of late 1983 like Dickensian urchins, breaking off to discuss such important matters as sex education videos of the 80s, running into Mrs McCluskey in a charity shop, asking lead singers how to get to Wales while they’re nobbing someone up against a tour bus, and the curse of Sta-Prest Fanny. With all the swearing you could ever want.    Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

This is the first radio ad you can smell. The new Cinnabon Pull-Apart, only at Wendy's. It's ooey, gooey, and just five bucks for the small coffee, all day long. Taxes extra at participating Wendy's until May 5th. Terms and conditions apply. What do you like listening to? Um... Chart music.

Chart music. chart music chart music hey oh dear it's going to be one of them leave that in that is well black Sabbath. Hey up, you pop-crazy youngsters, and welcome to the latest edition of Chart Music,

the podcast that gets its hand right down the back of the settee of a random episode of Top of the Pops. I'm your host, Al Needham, and as always, I'm joined by two people who know shit. One of those people is Simon Price. Hello, Simon. How are you? I'm all right. I'm in that pre-Christmas limbo where the tree is up, but I've still got loads of work on, so I can't kind of relax into it yet.

So, you know, I've had a few Christmas gatherings, but I'm always thinking, yes, I will have another glass of mulled wine, but it must not, repeat not, turn into an all-night rave our second guest is our old mate neil kulkarni hey up neil oh hello wow i'm fine thank you speaking to you of course from um the 2021 city of culture coventry which is announced oh god yes i don't know what it means and who's gonna get whatever money comes our way, but it's good, I guess.

Well, it means that everyone else has a go for you for a whole year, going, oh, look at them thinking the summits. Neil, start putting in some outrageous requests for kind of Arts Council grants and stuff right now. Milk it. Milk it for what it's worth. I think so, absolutely. I've got to be a part of the city of culture in 2021 in some way.

I've just got a feeling that all the money is going to go to, you know, fucking... The usual suspects, yeah. Well, cupcake hipster hubs and shit like that. Those cunts. But we shall see. We shall see. Well, what you want to put in for is... You've got a river near you or something.

We've got a river under us called the Sherbourne, which is only visible in two places in Coventry usually full of shopping trolleys right what you want is a massive 50 foot Walt Jabsco straddling it that can be seen from Birmingham that would be a great idea

anything basically that doesn't involve the enemy will be good yeah yeah yeah yeah I mean we did it in Nottingham we bid for European city of culture and then everybody realised that we weren't going to be part of Europe soon Yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, we did it in Nottingham. We bid for European city of culture.

And then everybody realised that we weren't going to be part of Europe soon, so we were told to fuck off. But that would have been awful. Neil, the enemy have split up. Let it go, man. Yeah. The enemy have split up. I would let it go. But unfortunately, Tom Clark, the lead singer,

is now doing anniversary shows, 10 years since The Enemy started, that are all sold out. I must tell you at some point, by the way, about a year ago, I got an email from Tom Clark

and The Enemy regarding a review I wrote of his band a few years ago. Amazing review. On the quietest, wasn't it? Yeah,

it was on the quietest. It was the longest email I have ever received from anybody. Wow. It was six pages long and he was pouring his heart out I think he was having

a bit of a midlife crisis or something oh no I must admit I didn't get to the end of it and didn't reply but maybe I should

yeah I mean it's just his face was up on bloody billboards in Coventry a few years ago so I just want the enemy seeing as they're

from fucking Kenilworth anyway, I want them extricated from any city of culture malarkey that goes on. Oh, yeah. I mean, God knows what would have happened if Nottingham had been a city of culture. I mean, fucking hell, when Jake Bug got a number one album,

the fucking council ran a banner right across the front of the fucking council house, which is our town hall. And it's just like, oh, don't do that, for fuck's sake. Man alive. From champions of Europe to Jake Berg. Yeah, exactly, yeah. Exactly.

Enough of this bollocks, enough of this modern future shit. Let's have a nice warm bath in the past. This episode, Pop Craze Youngsters, takes us all the way back to December the 22nd, 1983. We're only three and a half years down the line from our last episode in September of 1980,

but it's safe to say that much has changed in pop land, doesn't it, chaps? Indeed. This is the year, even though it's kind of the official version of pop history, that things start going shit in 83. You know, I was looking in this episode for disproof of that, but I found precious little.

I mean, you know, the standard line is that it all went wrong with Band-Aid and Live-Aid, you know, a couple of years later. But really, I think, even at this point in 83 we can see that the edges have been smoothed off the kind of post-punk and new wave so yeah i mean you might as well turn off now because it's gonna be shit it's actually all right Radio 1 News What was in the news this week? Well, 19 people have been killed in a bombing raid outside a French army base in Beirut. Dennis Nielsen has been slashed across the face with a razor in Wormwood Scrubs. Four Irish people are being questioned about the Harrods bombing which took place a week ago.

The Jules Remade trophy has been nicked from the Brazilian Soccer Federation officers. Oh, fucking hell, Brazil. Can't be trusted with anything. Should have left it with us. But the big news this week is that John Taylor of Duran Duran refused to give a 14-year-old fan a kiss

in a hotel lobby, only to be told to give her a kiss, you miserable old sod by jeffrey boycott who was dressed as santa how times have changed because if he had given that 14 year old girl a kiss imagine the shit he'd be getting for it now different times the cover of the enemy this week is santa playing a saxophone oh Isn't that nice? With Suze, Tracy Ullman, New Order and Marilyn mentioned on the cover. The cover

of Smash is Howard Jones. On the back is a photo of Boy George and his mam, suitably George the Blessing. I had that on my wall, that picture. Did you? Yeah. Did you have a thing for Boy George's mam?

No. We're going to come to that. I'm like, well, that picture. Did you? Yeah. Did you have a thing for Boy George's mum? Oh, yeah. No. Yeah. But we're going to come to that. This week's issue of Smash Hits also has the Smash Hits Reader's Poll of 1983. Shall we play a game, chaps? Yes, please. Oh.

Best group. Yeah. Culture Club. Culture Club, yeah. Duran Duran. No. Ooh. Best single?

Wherever I Lay My Hat by Paul Young. Karma Chameleon? Karma Chameleon. Get in. Shit. Also won the award for best video, even though George said it was the worst video his band had ever done. Best LP?

By someone who hasn't been mentioned so far. I'll give you a little clue on that. Oh, right. 83? Did Thriller come out in 83? It did, yes. Thriller then,

Michael Jackson. I agree with Neil. Yeah, that's got to be it, hasn't it? Fantastic by Wham! Oh, right. Best male singer? I agree with Neil yeah that's got to be it hasn't it Fantastic by Wham oh right best male singer Paul Young

not a solo singer I'll give you another go oh alright Boy George Boy George Simon Le Bon oh best female singer

Annie Lennox oh damn you beat me to it right if it's not her if it's not her then Best female singer. Thank you, Free. Annie Lennox. Oh, damn, you beat me to it. Right, if it's not her, then Toya? No. Go on, go on. What is it? Tracy Ullman.

Oh, wow. No way. Yeah. Most promising act for 1984? Big Country. Oh, can I have a clue? Is it a solo personal or is it a band? It's solo.

I reckon it's Howard Jones though. Simon, you can have another go. Well, he's already taken Howard Jones, so I'll say Nick Kershaw.

Howard Jones. Yeah, yeah. And the best TV show? The Young Ones. Gotta be The Young Ones. Top of the Pons. So, not only do we have a shit episode from 1983, we also have some guests who knew absolutely fuck all about 1983.

It's going to be a great episode, everyone. You talk about Smash It. I've got to say, this was the year where I started reading the music press, I think. And Smash It became part of the pop experience. Enemy and Melody Maker was still a bit too daunting for me. I was only young. But Smash It was, you know, just a Bible. And the two weekly wait, because I remember it only came out once every two weeks, didn't it?

It wasn't a weekly. That wait for Smash It to come out was a killer. Mainly I liked it because of the printed song lyrics. Obviously, I think that's why most people bought it back then. And it wasn't like I remembered the writers' names as such. But yeah, Smash Hits was a big, big part of liking pop music in 83. Yeah. Well, you know, this poll and everything,

it's only what girls fancy that wins. The number one LP at the minute is Now That's What I Call Music, the original one, with No Parlay by Paul Young at number two. In the US, the number one single is Say, Say, Say by Paul McCartney and Michael Jackson. And the number one LP is Can't Slow Down by Lionel Richie. Did Lionel Richie ever start up? Never mind Slow Down.

So chaps, what were we doing in December 1983? Were you waiting for Santa? I bloody loved Christmas. I still love Christmas. So yeah, I would have been getting tremendously excited about Christmas and what presents I was getting. First sort of time I was probably getting music-related presents, in a sense, tape players and things like that.

And first time really, 83, I remember sort of a little route around town that I used to do. Rather than being taken places by my parents or something, it was a time to be going into town by myself and doing that route between Poster Place, which was a badges and poster shopping car and um all the record shops toy shop library bookshops um that was my little route and just doing that like every saturday and consequently i think in 83 a division between the charts and listening to the charts, and actually my wider listening started. I started to listen to other music that was coming out

that wasn't getting in the charts. Partly down, I think, to Smash It as being such a big part of my life at that time. Even though, obviously, I loved it because it loved pop music, it went beyond the charts a little bit and introduced you to things that, you know, weren't making the top 40 sometimes. So it was the start of that for me, really. uh the latest installment of my autobiography yeah yes uh 1983

um i was 15 for most of the year um 16 when this totp was broadcast and uh i was in the fifth form of barry boy's comprehensive and i turned a corner and somehow become one of the popular kids um and the weird thing is I can pinpoint... How did you do that? Well, I can pinpoint the exact moment it happened. It was a really weird thing. It was on a school trip. We went to Dinard in Brittany

and we were allowed to wear our own clothes. And there was this very, very localised fashion trend in Barry for these burgundy cardigans with a big grey letter Y on them for Yale, I guess. Yeah, right. Well, you say yes, but I talked to people from other towns and no one's heard of this. Yeah, we had that.

Did you? I thought it was a real Barry thing. Anyway, all the cool kids had one, and I had got one for my birthday. And when I got on the bus for this school trip wearing that cardigan, all these lads who previously wouldn't have been seen dead hanging around with me were shouting, Simon, come and sit with us, indicating the back seats of the coach

where all the cool kids sat. Or more likely, they're going, Scary, come and sit with us, because Scary was my nickname for a while. Yeah, that's a whole other story. Well, let me break in there, because I have seen photos of you from this town and you do look massively Stebsonian.

You were the spit of Gripper Stebson, man. Harsh, harsh. But true. Well, what it was, when I first arrived at that school, we all hang around in the classroom before the register one morning and somebody decided to have a competition

of who could pull the scariest face and I won. So that was it for men on i was scary for a bit um but anyway um so yeah certainly just from wearing the right cardigan i was one of the cool kids and um in an instant i just thought well is that all it takes and suddenly i kind of realized how worthless it was you know you know breaking your ass to try and be one of the popular kids so but i i maintained it through the fifth form by being that cliche, the kid who isn't hard but is funny

and can make the tough kids laugh. I was that kid. And of course, you know, only about six or so years down the line, if you'd have worn a baseball cap with an X on it, you'd have been a cool kid then. Exactly. See, that's all it is.

Just wear something with a fucking letter on it. Letter on the alphabet, yeah. And I was reading, as Neil says, similar, I was reading smash hits every fortnight and obsessively watching the Young Ones when it was on, still following Liverpool FC, still playing Sabutio. I started taking piano lessons a bit reluctantly. My mum kind of made me do it.

But what I much preferred doing was hanging around the local park with a little gang of local ne'er-do-wells and hooligans and going on midnight rampages, destroying municipal flower beds and tagging street furniture with marker pens. Music-wise, where was your head at?

The albums I'd been playing to death that year were ABC, Lexicon of Love, which had come out the previous year. Dexys, Touraille, ditto. Culture Club, Colour by Numbers, Big Country, The Crossing, Paul Young's No Parley. But more than anything else, musically, this was my socialism period. So the Style Council were a really big deal for me. And I loved pretty much any band who mixed vintage soul music

with left-wing politics. You know, the previous year, there'd been the Falklands War, and then there'd been the general election in 83 that Michael Foote absolutely destroyed by Margaret Thatcher. And there was this kind of despondency, but also this feeling that if we all just get together and listen to the Cane Gang and Find Young Cannibals, everything might be all right, you know. So, and also a bit similar to what Neil was just saying about this kind of divide opening up between what was in the charts and what your real musical tastes were.

I think I was watching Talk the Pops religiously every week, but a bit cynically now, by now. I was sort of watching it thinking, oh, for fuck's sake, why isn't the good stuff on? You know what I mean? Because that period was kicking in. Yeah. I mean, as far as cardigans go,

round about this time, I was wearing a zipper one, a blue zipper one with the word sport across it. Nice. Because I was a bit different from the why cardigan wearing fuckers, you know, the chaff. And I teamed that with a pair of very tight stay pressed.

The one thing about stay pressed and a lot of my friends discovered this as well is at the time they were being worn so tight, they would split at the crotch. Right underneath the crotch as well. And my mates discovered that if you kind of like laid on your back with your legs in the air, when you've got the split, you could go, hey, everyone, look at my fanny. So stupidly tight, stay pressed.

With a split, teamed up with a really mad stripy shirt I'd got from a charity shop and a black and red op-art cravat that I'd got from the same charity shop and a pair of jam shoes. I looked such a cunt in 1983. But I wouldn't be told any other way. Of course not. You know, that's how I spent late 1983. I'd just like to go back to the price he said

that he found a way to be popular, but he got in with the popular kids in a sense at that time. In with the in crowd. In with the in crowd because of being funny. I feel so much sort of kinship with that, if you like. And I think probably a lot of, in a sense, it sounds poncy to say it, but, you know, writers and music writers will feel some solidarity with that,

in a sense. Definitely. We all sort of realise at some point in our lives, I think, that words helped. And, you know, they could actually sort of open doors and stuff. And they could, you know, if you didn't look the part, or you didn't look like one of the popular kids, but you could use your gob in a kind of funny way and say funny shit.

You kind of got by and you were not left alone necessarily, but it was a way in. And I think that's important for any writer to realise. And perhaps that was the start of my realisation at this time as well. That, yeah, if you could be funny with words, then you might be all right. Yeah. But as we know from the time, words don't come easy. What was on telly this very day? Well, BBC One has run Postman Pat, the Bing Crosby film,

Birth of the Blues, Play School, Spider-Man and His Amazing Friends, Newsround, Blue Peter, 60 Minutes, the replacement for Nationwide, Angels, and, of course, Tomorrow's World. BBC Two has screened the Cary Grant film, Mr Blanding's Builds His Dream House, the semi-final of the World Chess Championships and, unbelievably, the Sports Personality of the Year ceremony. Fancy having that on a Thursday afternoon as if it means shit. Yeah.

I've just remembered though, chess on telly, that was a big thing. Yeah, it was. It was massive. Yeah, there was an entire chess show in fact, I seem to recall. Yeah.

For half an hour every week. Play chess, yeah. Yeah. Sports personality of the year that year was, I'm not even going to ask you because I know you get it wrong, Steve Cram. Oh, right. Would you have got it wrong? Yeah, because there wasn't even an Olympics that year was, I'm not even going to ask you because I know you get it wrong. Steve Cram.

Would you have got it wrong? Yeah, because there wasn't even an Olympics that year so that is kind of surprising. I was always an Yvette man myself. Yeah, me too. There's a statue of Steve Yvette just about half a mile from where I live in Brighton on the seafront and a couple of years ago it got stolen.

Someone took a hacksaw and saw through years ago it got stolen someone took a hacksaw and sawed through Steve Ovette's ankle and took it away and put it in their garden until it was like someone grasped them up and it's been reinstated but it's right on this bit where everyone goes jogging

and he's in full running pose so I think it's there as motivation come on you can do it. Be like Steve Overt. But don't get your ankle sawn through. ITV is showing the Ian Carmichael film Double Bunk, the health show Bodyline, Give Us a Clue, Crossroads, Emmerdale Farm, and his just trotting out, carry on laughing Christmas classics.

Meanwhile, Channel 4 has run the Busted Keaton film, The Three Ages, The Addams Family, Anything We Can Do, which is an improvised drama series, and is currently running Channel 4 News. Not very Christmassy, is it? Since it's only about three days beforehand. Well, we didn't have that. You know, in those days, Christmas was Christmas

and you didn't have like a three-month run-up to it. All right, then, Pop Craze youngsters it's time to get our hands down the trousers of late December 1983 what a very special time for me see what you did there. You know how we do things by now we may coat down your favourite

band or artist but we never forget they've been on top of the pops more than we have Hello friends and welcome to another live Top of the Pops. As you can see, because it's the Christmas season, we're all dressed up in fancy dress, unlike yours. Thanks very much. We've really gone all the way for this one,

and we're going to kick off in a party mood with Slade and Merry Christmas, everybody. Are you having enough of something on the wall? It's the time that every sad little heart should fall. It's Thursday, December 22nd, 1983, and Top of the Pops has decided to get into the Christmas spirit. But bar adding a few hovering baubles and the words Christmas 83 to its opening titles, you can barely tell the difference

because it's proper flags and balloons time. Also, it's fully into its period of teaming up two Radio 1 DJs. The first one, now known as David Jensen, because he's 30 fucking 3 now, Kid Jensen is currently handling the early evening slot on Radio 1 and actually should be on there right now. But as this show is live, he's either put a dead big record on or someone is filling in for him. His partner, born John Ravenscroft in Cheshire in 1939, His partner, born John Ravenscroft in Cheshire in 1939,

John Peel was the son of a cotton merchant who went to Shrewsbury School with Michael Palin before taking up his dad's profession. At the age of 21, he moved to Dallas to work with an associate of his father, and when JFK was assassinated, he went to the police station where Lee Harvey Oswald was held, passed himself off as a reporter from the Liverpool Echo, and was in the room when he was presented to the police station where Lee Harvey Oswald was held, passed himself off as a reporter from the Liverpool Echo and was in the room when he was presented to the media.

He went on to co-present the radio show Cat's Caravan for WRR Radio in Dallas and then became Cliff's official Beakles correspondent before working for KOMA in Oklahoma City and KMEN in San Bernardino. When he returned to the UK, he landed a gig on the pirate station Radio London, forging a reputation as an underground DJ on his late night show, The Perfume Garden. A month after Radio London was closed down, he was picked up by the new Radio One and made the late night slot his very own. He presented his first episode of Top of the Pops in 1968,

but after protesting on air about the lack of Captain Beefheart and Tyrannosaurus Rex, and forgetting the name of Amen Corner, he wasn't asked back again until 1981. He's been regularly presenting Top of the Pops since 1982, and this very evening he can be heard presenting the second part of his festive fifth day which features the likes of The Fall, The Cocteau Twins and Ex-Mal Deutschland and opens that radio show by saying you're always supposed to be bright and breezy okay really on top of everything on wonderful radio one but obviously there are quite clearly times when you get tired and after doing top of the pops is

one of them because you have two complete run-throughs of the program before you actually do it and it's very hot and you expend a great deal of nervous energy by the time you've finished you're actually feeling quite drained all you want to do is go down to the pub and have a drink and then go home and go to bed by and large but course, it's always a pleasure to commandeer a radio programme for you. Moaning bastard. John Peel and Kid Jensen quickly became a double act. This is, I believe, the 11th time they've presented Top of the Pops this year.

You know, it's become quite a fixture on it. And I'm guessing that, you know, practically everyone from Britain who's listening to this podcast went through a John Peel phase at some part in their life. So when was yours? Mine would have been a little bit after this, to be honest. It would have probably been the following year that I did start staying up late

and listening to it and, you know, things like hearing the Jesus and Mary chain for the first time and having my mind blown. But I think I loved him as a top of the pops presenter first around this time because and it's a perfect example of something that I loved then and I find really aggravating now I've got to be honest I think

what I loved about him then was that he's very kind of subversive and irreverent and sarcastic about pop and that now is exactly what I hate about it when I look back at it um and and also just the kind of veneration of john peel i i think it's a curious thing because without going into details here that that there are certain things he he reveals uh particularly about his his life in america in his autobiography which if they were more widely known, he might be seen in the same light as some of the now less,

you know, the more shamed presenters, shall we say. But he gets a pass, doesn't he? Yeah. From so many people, and you have to wonder why. I think I was actually... He's got a Jimmy Page card, hasn't he? Well, I mean, it's interesting Simon says that at the time he liked it and now he's aggrav a Jimmy Page card hasn't he well it's interesting Simon says that

at the time he liked it and now he's aggravated by it I think I was aggravated by it at the time basically because you know watching it with your parents my parents

loved John Peel and loved his sarcasm about pop because they were basically there to kind of take the piss anyway so it was kind of like another grown up there. And it used to anger me massively.

There would have been a period, of course, after that, when I, like Simon, I started listening to Peel, perhaps obviously a few years later than Simon, around about 87, I think I started listening to Peel. And, you know, he blew my mind in a lot of ways with a lot of the things he played. And an exemplary sort of thing of playing just music off the beaten track and introducing

you to new things just but for me equivalent to peel was annie nightingale yeah time yeah um yeah annie nightingale especially because she had a show on a sunday night after the charts so you know you pause it after the charts you tape and i would still carry on you know with annie occasionally unpausing my record button to record things that just grabbed me. And she introduced me probably to more amazing music than actually Peely did. But it is interesting the way he just gets that pass because he's on our side. Do you know what I mean? He's on the indie side of things.

he's on the indie side of things and consequently he kind of he gets a pass for like simon says behavior that is the equivalent to more um disreputable people like savel etc less consistent with it but certainly in the autobiography some pretty horrible things come out yeah and also his constant referral to his wife as the pig and stuff like that i mean mean, I know it was all just part of his shtick, but there was that little trace of that in Peely, I think. Yeah, you're absolutely right. But, you know, yeah, by the same token, I can't deny that there were many times that I'd hear a track on his show and I would go into Cardiff the next Saturday

with whatever pocket money I scraped together to Spillers Records, you know, which was the oldest continually operating record shop in the world. And if they didn't already have it, they would order it for me. And that's kind of how I grew my, I suppose the sort of alternative wing of my record collection. But like Neil says, I agree, actually.

People like Annie Nightingale, also Janice Long, who was also, she was quite often a John Peel sidekick on Top of the Pops. And whoever, even Kid Jensen, whoever else was doing that kind of early evening slot on the radio, probably opened my mind to more stuff than Peel would have. Can I just say, you mentioned the opening credits with the Christmas 83 font. I do like these opening credits with the Christmas 83 font I do like these opening credits and I'm talking about the kind of regular non-Christmassy version of it

with the flying coloured vinyl and the spinning TV screen and all that and Yellow Pearl and that, it is as iconic for me as the 70s whole lot of love credits, perhaps more so really because it was more my time and when

we cut to the studio I do like the Christmas 83 font on the big screen made up of parallel lines, it's like it's been printed out of a primitive printer with, you know those printers you'd have in the paper would come out in this constant roll with holes

on the side with perforated strips with little holes. It's like that kind of font. And yeah, I don't know. It's a really sort of pleasing nostalgia hit just to see that font apart from everything else. I think Simon's dead on in that these titles and that theme tune for Top of the Pops, that for me is Top of the Pops. If I remember i remember top of the pops it's this theme sheet and those flying records exploding um of course absolutely and the slight start of kind of crap computer animation um being on there because i was on about my route around town of course a vital

stop in the route around town was popping into dixon's and going on like a bbc or a dragon computer and typing 10 print fuck off 20 go to 10 that was a vital thing as part of the route around town yeah of course i mean as far as as far as john pilgers for me uh my phase would have been the late 80s because i was it was this point in my life where i was trying to hear as much hip-hop as possible and we didn't have any pirate stations in the area so i'd have to sit through a lot of crap or what i thought was crap just hopefully to hear something that would do my head it's very that in it because like a lot of his kind of core indie audience would have the exact opposite view they'd be listening for

you know bogshed and stump and stuff like that and then he'd play a hip-hop record they'd be what is this bollocks you know or reggae records as well quite often he'd play of course yes really piss off the listenership yeah i mean it was i mean to me his show was a complete lucky bag of randomness. And when you do have such a seemingly random element to your playlist, things are going to hit. And you always remember the things that you like over the things you don't like. You know you weren't going to have to listen to fucking Duran Duran every hour for example Pricey mentioned earlier

hearing the Mary Chain for the first time I bet Simon actually remembers the precise moment and the room that he was in and everything about it and that's the thing with moments of radio revelation I think I can still remember things that I heard in 86

on Peel or on Annie Nightingale. And I'm not just remembering the song. I'm remembering being there and your mouth just kind of dropping, in a sense. This kind of, bloody hell, I fucking love this song and I've got to seek this out tomorrow. So Peel was really important for that. I've got to give him his due in that regard.

But yeah, the rest of it needs a bit more but i think the indie that the sort of it the official version of indie history in a sense needs to address what what was bad about peel as well as what was great well um julie birchall uh in her guardian column god must be 20 years ago now or something like that, wrote a real kind of character assassination of, of Peel and, and went into this stuff in quite a lot of depth and she got no end of shit for it. And of course,

partly Birchall was doing what Birchall does, sort of taking a sacred cow and just being provocative and, and, and all of that. But I read it and it did sort of open my eyes a little bit. Bloody hell, you know, I didn't know that stuff at that point.

But yeah, just go back to what, whatil was saying about knowing exactly where you were um hearing uh it would have been never understand i think by the jesus and mary chain on on the john no actually would have been their first single on creation upside down on the john peele show uh and i was in my room listening on a sort of tinny clock radio in the dark, and probably, you know, thinking I really should switch off and go to sleep, but then this record comes on, and the feedback screeching through my radio, I thought there was something wrong with the radio, first of all, and then I just, I realised that was the song,

and with this kind of Beach Boys, Ramones type melody underneath, this unholy screeching, and I thought it was Satan coming through my speech. I was scared. I was genuinely scared of a record. And that had a really profound effect on me. And the thought that you could have this beautiful pop song, but also this terrifying screeching noise coming over the top. I was totally sold on that.

And I went out and bought whatever I could buy them after that. So yeah, we can go back and forth all day on this. totally sold on that and i i went out and bought whatever i could buy them after that so yeah um i you know uh we can go back and forth all day on this that you know yeah he wasn't a perfect human being but fucking hell who is really yeah yeah and well you know um but but you know what i'm saying that that uh without quite giving him the jimmy page pass or the phil specter pass or any of that that some things are just a fact and the fact is that he probably turned more people on to more sort of mind-blowing music than than anyone else at radio one over a period of decades so gotta give him that yeah i mean there will be people listening to this now who will not

have one word said against him you know being into John Peel is a badge of your you know alternativeness and the fact that you really know about Music Man yeah and these people will trot out the it was a different time thing for Peely but absolutely won't for any of the rest of them so

slight hypocrisy going on there yeah I mean as far as his presentation style on Top of the Pops goes, I mean, I liked it then and I'm not upset about it now because if I'd have been like, you know, a few years younger or, you know, really into the big bands of that time, he would have pissed me right off. But as a 15-year-old, his style came off to me as,

look, you know and I know that most of the songs on here are cat shit. So, you know, let's get on with it and maybe something good will pop up at some point. Yeah, and I think as a double act, the reason they work is that Kid Jensen is a pretty good sport in allowing himself to be the kind of straight man of it. You know, because in every way, Kid Jensen is presented as kind of mr square mr normal oh yeah um you could tell they genuinely like each other but um jensen allows himself to to be set up as the kind of

um sid little if you like of the duo i always look at them and i just think they would make a great itv detective show those two what is it like? You know, Peely and the Kid. You know, some crime's gone on. And Jensen goes off in the woods and ends up wrestling with a bear while Peel sits in his study examining fall lyrics for clues and stuff like that. It'd be great. His sort of denigration of pop music in his presentation and the way he rolls his eyes and stuff like that

there's a slight sense now watching it where I think yeah you're being a bit smugly superior to pop there really but I think it's just because I've forgotten exactly how isolated and strange that was on top of the pots because what we'd get week on week was

Noel Edmonds and Steve Wright and Bruno Brooks. And it was also just remorselessly positive. And, you know, just having that little note of sourness. I mean, especially if I was a grown-up watching it in 83, I bloody loved that kind of thing. Yeah, my dad loved it. Yeah, my dad loved it and my mum loved it as well. I was a little bit more resentful because I loved pop and I didn't like it seeing him take the piss out of.

Yeah, I think my favourite John Peel-ism on top of the pots is when he did the chart rundown and he said, the heavy ethnic sound of modern romance. Peel and Kid are surrounded by the kids who are waving massive red flags about wearing the same party hats they've been wearing all year. Peel comments that they've really dressed up for this week's show.

He's being sarcastic because Peel's wearing a red shirt with a navy blue suit jacket while Kid wears a patterned jumper which would have passed as festive at the time. I mean, no way is that a Christmas jumper in 2017, is it? Just a jumper. It's just, yeah, it's just a jumper.

You know, even then in the 80s, at the height of the extravagance of the early 80s, you know, Christmas jumpers really weren't doing it, were they? No. 1983 was a real year of knitwear, actually. I remember knitwear in 83, 84 was suddenly really weirdly cool among young people. Usually grey and black, black and grey kind of patterns.

Burgundy was massive round our way. Burgundy as well, yeah. We had, at this time, they made the huge mistake at my school of deciding what the school uniform should be, and they let the kids decide. And Burgundy won hands down. So there'd be kids in fucking 1998 going, why the fuck are we wearing this horrible colour? and burgundy worn hands down. So there'd be kids in fucking 1998 going,

why the fuck are we wearing this horrible colour? Why are we dressed as Chaz Smash in the One Step Beyond video or something? Yes, because of your ancestors. I mean, it could have been worse, man. If it had been, you know, a few years later, they'd be wearing all kinds of pastel shit. Cricket jumpers as well, at this time as well. Yes.

On the back with the kind of sleeves over your shoulders what a fucking horrible look that was peel does some jiving with a faux excited expression as kid introduces merry christmas everybody by slade we've covered slade in chart music's eight and nine so we won't go into details but after their renaissance in 1981 they had a poor 1982 releasing two singles that stalled in the early 50s however their latest single my oh my is currently at number two and this re-release of the 1973 christmas number one has jumped from number 35 to number 20 it's already been in the charts before. It went to number 70 in 1980, number 32 in 1981,

and number 67 in 1982. This song might as well be called Nod His Pension. First of all, My Oh My. Yeah. Could have been nearly the Christmas number one this year. It's almost Cartesian in its philosophical insights.

I believe in woman, my oh my. So yeah, he's acknowledging the existence of another gender. So as a... It might be the magazine though. Absolutely. He might have got some really good recipes and knitting patterns off it that's really changed his look up.

You know what though? I'd forgotten until we watched this episode that Slade did have such a huge hit in this year. It completely slipped my mind. I mean, yeah, amazingly, he did have this kind of career renaissance for about two years in the early 80s.

Yeah, and not only that, but the previous month, Quiet Riot's version of Come On, Feel the Noise was number five in America. Jesus, yeah. Yeah, they were having it. Did you remember My Oh My at all? Anything about it until you played it

or heard it in preparation for the show? Because I don't remember it at all, even though it's number two. No, I don't. I'm a little bit older. Yeah, I do. Yeah, yeah, totally. I only had to see the title

and it was going through my head instantly. It's not the best, is it? And it's not as good as My Oh My by Sad Cafe, which is a different song altogether. Yeah. Rolling Stone's pastiche. But anyway. But this song, I mean, by now,

it's the official national anthem of Christmas, isn't it? Yeah. I mean, I'm more of a wizard man myself. I take that stance on the big Christmas hits of the 70s but Christmas I think in general is still to this day a very 1970s

holiday isn't it so that even in 1983 we're looking back at songs like this thinking those are the proper Christmas songs and I don't think until the following year looking back at songs like this, thinking, ah, those are the proper Christmas songs. And I don't think until, wham,

the following year, anybody had really done a Christmas song and nailed it since the 70s. Unless I'm forgetting something. I mean, you had Paul McCartney, Wonderful Christmas Time, stuff like that. But yeah.

I mean, the only other, the only other Christmassy song in the charts that's's not novelty shit is 2000 miles by the pretenders, which is wonderful by the way. It's a wonderful record, but it's, it's not a sort of sing along arms in the air thing like this. No. And one thing I noticed about this,

you know, you say it's Noddy's pension. He's really going for it in this performance. There's, there's, there's no hint yet of ingratitude or of it being an albatross for him. He's, he's really, really going for it in this performance. There's, there's, there's, there's no hint yet of ingratitude or of it being an albatross for him. He's, he's really,

really going for it. He, he acts out the, the bit where, you know, the granny's up and rock and rolling with the rest. He does a little bit of the twist, you know?

Um, yeah. And, uh, that's number 20 in the charts, but they don't mind because they're number two with my, oh my. And,

and like you say, you know, they, they probably know that, that this song is, is, is gonna, um, you know, they probably know that this song is going to, you know, basically pay all their mortgages. One exception actually being Dave Hill,

because Jim Lee and Noddy Holder, I think wrote the song. Dave Hill didn't have a writing credit. I don't think he had writing credit on any or many of Slay's records. So, and that must sting him. But Dave Hill's autobiography, it's not been out long, I think it's called So Here It Is. That But Dave Hill's autobiography, it's not been out long, I think,

it's called So Here It Is. That's Dave Hill's autobiography. Right. And he is still touring with a rump slate, which I've seen. And they're just awful. The fake, the pretend noddy holder just doesn't give it the required welly that you've got to give it. But, yeah, on this, they seem totally...

You watch this performance and you don't see a band who are visibly thinking, oh, fucking hell, not this song again. They're really happy to be doing it. And there's a weird performance with a sexy Santa dancer behind them and some irrelevant coloured umbrellas, which I didn't quite get. Also, I love the fact that Jim Lee, the bassist, looks like he's in a different band.

He's wearing a black leather jacket and black leather trousers and a sort of heavy metal looking t-shirt. Yeah, he wants to be in Maiden, doesn't he? Yeah, he thinks he's in Judas Priest or something, totally. Anyway, yeah. I think there was a chart music podcast where somebody, it might have been Taylor, it might have been Simon, introduced this concept

of convivial music. That's me, yeah. Yeah, and I think that's exactly what this is. To me, this is Christmas, this song. To me, actually, it edges Wizard as one of my favourite Christmas songs, in fact. And I need to hear it

at Christmas. It makes me feel, it's the first thing to make me feel Christmassy at Christmas, it's kind of like, it's like the arrival of the Christmas radio times in the house, it's one of those just things that makes Christmas start and it's just it is like a national anthem of Christmas you're right Al, it's just everyone's Christmas

is contained within the lyrics of this song and nodding as Price um as pricey said he's still on this performance he's totally just a beguilingly strange pop star i think untied up and just a massive massive voice that's so likable and you know there's things about this record like you know the shout at the end when he shouts it's christmas for me yeah that is when christmas starts and and and it and it's waiting for that and uh you know it's one of those records you know like whole lot of rosie by acdc is a great test in rock clubs for people who actually know

music or not because there's a bit of the end where there's a false stop start thing and and and if you get it wrong and you're moshing in a rock club you look like a right fucking idiot who doesn't know ACDC properly this record is like that because you're going to shout it's Christmas probably before Moddy does it, he holds it back for a good long time and

when it comes in for me this record is Christmas and actually lyrically it's just a lovely song about what a British Christmas is all about Neil can I ask you about that because you're you're often um a club DJ aren't you or you've certainly you've certainly done a fair bit of it and and me too and as a as a DJ yeah um you do become aware of certain songs where people go early with the singing they'll always they'll get it wrong and that that's one of them it's that it's Christmas in Slade another one that I always notice is

Talking Head Psycho Killer people can't wait to get to the and they go really early with it yeah there's probably a great list

to be made of songs where people go early but yeah this is totally yeah a classic one of those yeah this is definitely one of them

like you I'm also slightly annoyed by the two women on stage. I don't know what they're doing there. Oh, they fucked me right off. The two members of Zoo who look like Page Three girls, one in a Santa micro skirt and thigh-length boots, a position behind nodding Dave Hill, making out that they're in the band.

Slaves don't have female backing singers, dog. No, you're not needed. They're not needed. And the asymmetricality of it annoys me. That's one side of the stage. That bugs me. But deeper than that, I think, you know when me and Pricey were talking about the 94 episode

and how the crowd have actually become an annoyance in a way and have really become part of the spectacle. You can't really see individuals. I think this episode is kind of, I'm not saying this episode, but 83 Top of the Pots, is kind of the start of that, I think. Yeah.

You don't really get to see much of the crowd until the very end of the episode, I would say. As individuals, yeah. As individuals, yeah, absolutely. And it's a big big show lots of shouting and lots of just shouting

and kind of woos and all of that that was so annoying in the 94 episode is starting here I know it's a Christmas episode I'm not expecting them

to stand in solemn silence or anything but the crowd's behaviour seems utterly unrelated to the music and it's the start of that that would reach

its pinnacle in those terrible Can I just say something that that would reach its pinnacle um can i just say something that i would have found i would have found really exciting watching this episode um is the fact that uh it's what the 22nd of december and it's basically a normal top of the pops yeah it's got some christmas trimmings to it but the knowledge that we're watching and just three days later there's gonna going to be another one. What a double instalment. That's, you know, already you'd be thinking, OK, I can put up with hearing Slade today because, you know, just I can annoy my relatives by having, you know,

by breaking up the middle of Christmas Day by watching the look back on the year. Yeah. You feel spoiled. The most thrilling moment of this entire episode, actually, is towards the end, it comes up on the screen, Christmas Top of the Pops.

Yes. 2pm, Christmas Day. And that was, that was Christmas for me. That 2pm Top of the Pops. Man. Were you allowed to watch it?

I got so excited. Because like, Oh yeah, of course. I mean, I'm not going to say fights over the remote control because we didn't have

a remote control. It wasn't that snazzy in those days. But there was certainly a thing in my house where on Christmas Day itself, particularly the elderly members of my family thought it was really rude and brattish of me to want to watch Top of the Pops

when we should all be sitting around playing charades or something like that, right? But the hypocrisy of it, we all had to stop and sit quietly while the Queen did the Queen's speech. Yeah. Yeah. Christmas Day was 2pm, Top of the Pops. About 5.30 Disney time.

Those were the two peaks of Christmas Day. But Christmas Top of the Pops, man, it was all about that. Yeah. The zoo girls get in with a band at the end as if they're members of Slay, which I didn't approve of. I mean, as a 15-year-old, I would have been perving at them big style, but it would have been, look,

no. I hated Zoo. I hated their faces. I hate... No, because I mentioned, sorry to keep going on past episodes, but I mentioned in the past that a look from a keyboard player in Shack Attack

put me against that band for three years Zoo were just doing it on a weekly fucking basis, their joy was my despair but the great thing about Slade is that they actually don't give a fuck they make no eye contact

or any kind of contact and at the end the the two girls from zoo are having to glom themselves onto the band while they're just carrying on doing their thing and you know dave hill's more interested in kicking a balloon out of the way with his very pointy cowboy boots than actually going hey look at me with this saucy madam anyone on stage anyone on stage is slayed i mean we're not going to be looking at you we're going to be looking at noddy and we're going to be looking at dave, I mean, we're not going to be looking at you. We're going to be looking at Noddy and we're going to be looking at Dave. If Slade are on stage,

you're going to be looking at them. They are utterly pointless and shouldn't be on there. So because next week's chart was released over Christmas, everything stayed the same. But the week after, Merry Christmas, everyone, stayed at number 20 and then dropped 63 places to number 83.

That's how it should be. That is how it should be. Yeah, totally. However, the next single run, run away would get to number seven in March of 1984. That was their big country rip off.

Yeah. Run, run away. Yeah. They're suddenly trying to be big country. Anyway, sorry. Yes.

Merry Christmas. Everyone would be released 17 more times over the years, getting to number 22 in 2006, number 32 in 2008, and this January got to number 30. I mean, fucking hell. Are people buying the record and then chucking it out in January like Christmas trees

and then, oh, it's nearly Christmas, we better get a new Slade record in. Oh, here it is, Merry Christmas. Everybody's having fun. It's Christmas. Look to the future now. It's only just begun Incredibly, it was ten years ago this week that that record went straight to number one.

Slade also in the charts, of course, at number two with My Oh My. At number three, it's Culture Club. Here they are with Victim. Take a ride into unknown pleasure Here they are with Victim. After the camera swings round to find Kid on some scaffolding for Stoon with tinsel, he points out that Merry Christmas, everybody, went to number one ten years ago. Fuck it, and that would have been a century, wouldn't it? In pop time. Absolutely, and, you know,

if Noddy would have done the granny dance in 73, it would have been a young person taking the piss. When he does it in this episode, he looks like an old bloke dancing, you know? And he introduces the next song which is victims by culture club formed in london in 1981 when close seller and blitz club regular george who provided backing vocals for bow wow wow under the name lieutenant lush decided to form his own band culture club released two records that failed to chart in early 1982 before their third

single, Do You Really Want To Hurt Me, made it to number one in October of that year. They went on to have three top 10 hits on the bounce throughout 1983 and this single, the third one from the LP Colour By Numbers, is the follow-up to Karma Chameleon which got to number one in September of this year and stayed there for six weeks, becoming the biggest-selling single of the year. The song is about the cups of tea George was having with his drummer John Moss, which was unknown to the general public at the time,

and the show in the video, which was directed by Godley & Cream and features a 54-piece orchestra and choir. I think it's 54-piece. That's how many I counted. And it's up one place this week from number four to number three. I mean, the first thing we have to say

is that they crashed the video when it's over a minute in, which is deeply unfair. I mean, presumably they've played it in full like the week before, a couple of weeks before, have they? I don't know. You've missed the slow build-up to the um slightly less slower crescendo of the song isn't

it it's an amazing video i mean it's a health and safety nightmare as well yes it is it looks perilous do you know what i mean i was watching it and i was actually fearful for that you know obviously i know but it's one of those videos it's like a pop accident waiting to happen. Well, set the scene for us, Neil. Tell us what's going on. What alarmed me the most was George, not floating, obviously, he's on some kind of thing that's carrying him around, but he's going in midair. On a cherry picker.

On a cherry picker, that's the word. And it's incredibly high up, this 54-piece orchestra. piece orchestra like you know at least 50 feet in the air and and it you know the famous pop pop music accidents in videos you know michael jackson setting his hair on fire and stuff like that this is a you know a contender that that could have happened thankfully nothing did but um yeah i was just on the edge of my seat throughout um just thinking christ that looks dangerous yeah i mean there's a there's a there's um all the orchestra members are on these very kind of like thin but extremely tall sets of stage it's fantastic video really eye-popping and i love the way um sort of i think two-thirds in through it goes to this really

bizarre kind of balloon imagery um with really really vivid colors i don't remember the video watching it much at the time but it's a fantastic video it really is simon at this point boy george is he's practically a national treasure isn't he he is and i was obsessed um he was he was an angel to me um he was like some kind of some kind of fairy godmother but not in the kind of panto way. He genuinely seemed like this kind of, this entity from another realm who was looking out for me and who sort of somehow, you know, you get that thing that the pop stars understand you, you suddenly think, oh my God, they get me. I i really really had that with george and it wasn't about

whether he's gay or straight or any of that stuff but it was that he was showing a different way of being a man uh that that's the way i looked at it um i didn't think of him as kind of drag act drag queen i didn't necessarily even think of him as androgynous, though clearly he was. This is something that I really found and looked for in a lot of my pop heroes at the time, just showing a different way of being a man. That's why this video, the lavishness of it, I can't separate the video from the song in my head, unlike Neil.

For me, as soon as I hear those pianos, I'm totally seeing him in that black hat floating around on the cherry picker. But it was really apt that he was floating amongst heavenly choirs and stuff like that because he was angelic to me. And Helen Terry, when she comes in, by the way, I loved her.

She's all over Colour by Numbers, the second Culture Club album which i i played to death that year and um what a singer she was and then then at the end you get john peel saying boy george is the creature from the black lagoon oh yeah that pissed me off no end what was your first point of contact with boy george well it was do You Really Want To Hurt Me? On top of the pops? Yeah, and it was that classic thing of going to school the next day and people saying, God, I really fancy that girl from Culture Club last night.

And me being a bit more clued in, having to say, actually guys, I've got some breaking news for you. But I wasn't totally, I mean, now I think Do You Really Want To Hurt Me is a fantastic. But I wasn't totally, I mean, you know, now I think Do You Really Want To Hurt Me is a fantastic record. I wasn't necessarily ready for it at the time,

wasn't totally sold on them, but it was a few of the subsequent singles like Time, Clock of the Heart and Church of the Poisoned Mind, which I just absolutely fell in love with and sort of quickly jumped on the bandwagon and he became an absolute hero to me that there was me you know how you you share your pop hero sometimes with with your close friends yeah there's me and one other kid in my class called roger neil um and and the two

of us had culture club in common and that was our thing and um the following year 84 i kind of i don't know if ran away from home is putting it too dramatically, but we went up to Birmingham NEC to see Culture Club, having bought tickets in Cardiff Spillers, without any real idea of how we were going to get home afterwards. Yeah. Because the trains had stopped running. We ended up sleeping on the platform at Bristol Parkway, I think, halfway home. And all of this.

My mum must have been going nuts wondering where I was Well he didn't tell you you were going to Birmingham to see Boy George I don't know I probably did, but I probably said, oh it's fine I'll be back around midnight or something like that Do you think she was more alarmed at the Boy George bit or the Birmingham bit? I think both, I mean certainly

when I had Boy George pictures over my wall, my mum said to me one day, she kind of confronted me and said Simon are you gay? and I remember being quite flattered by that and I deliberately didn't answer I just sort of laughed at the question you were enigmatic was you?

I enigmatically laughed at the question and went back upstairs to stare at my Boy George pictures did you say mum I'd really like a cup of tea right now well played yeah so Simon Did you say, ma'am, I'd really like a cup of tea right now? Well played. Yeah, yeah. So, Simon, how did you express your support of Culture Club?

Was it a badge or did you go further than that? In some ways. Did you do the full Michelle Fowler in Grange Hill thing? Brilliant. Yeah, yeah. I actually played that clip of Susan Tully in Grange Hill. What was her character called? Suzanne.

Suzanne Ross. Was it Suzanne Ross or something? Something like that, yeah. In Grange Hill, where she turns up dressed as Boy George and gets a telling off from Mrs McCluskey. Well, this is after she'd left, you see, so McCluskey couldn't do anything to her, apart from tell her to fuck off out of her school because she don't belong here anymore, of course.

I play that clip at my 80s club, Spellbound. We play it on the kind of video reel. And yeah, it's a great moment. I actually saw, and we're going way off topic, but I saw Mrs. McClusky. We never go way off topic. I saw actual Mrs. McClusky not long ago, about a year ago in a charity shop in Brighton

and I really wanted to go up and tell her that I thought she was great but also I was scared she might tell me off because she's Mrs McCluskey but she was kind of like harsh but fair she was kind of a kind headmistress I think so I probably would have been alright but no, I didn't dress up

in the full boy George thing my one concession was that I got a kind of a day glow green little bit of ribbon and tied it in my ponytail because it wasn't a ponytail more like a rat tail because to even admit to any kind of effeminacy

or love of effeminate things at my school would have got you a kick in so I was being quite bold by even admitting that I like Culture Club. And so I was basically dressing like Paul Weller, using sort of catalogue clothes from Melandi of Carnaby Street, we mentioned previously.

But I was growing my hair out a little bit and tying this ribbon in it as a sort of concession to how kind of, well, we wouldn't have called it metrosexual in those days but you know how how how cool i was with with my own sexuality and my own gender and all of that yeah i mean at my school i mean it was really weird because everybody loved do you really want to hurt me because it was a lover's rock song and you know everyone was into that kind of like soft reggae kind of thing. I mean, there was a time when, I mean, there was a period where there was three songs,

three songs in a row that were number one, which were kind of like reggae. Do You Really Want To Hurt Me, Pasta Duce, and Red Red Wine. So, you know, everyone loved Do You Really Want To Hurt Me, but only girls displayed a liking of Culture Club. I had a revelation about Do You Really Want To Hurt Me, but only girls displayed a liking of Culture Club. I had a revelation about Do You Really Want To Hurt Me, which I've always liked, but I heard it on Free Radio 80s the other morning. And it's one of the greatest Lovers Rock songs ever. It's brilliant, isn't it?

It's just a brilliant, brilliant record. And George's vocal performance on it is just astonishing. It's such a great record. And I've heard lots of it is just astonishing. It's such a great record. And, you know, I've heard lots of stories from people who worked in record shops at the time, you know, big black guys coming in looking for that record and then when they discover that it's, you know, that it's Boy George and Culture Club

kind of not being interested. I completely agree. Do You Really Want Herby, particularly the 12-inch version. Dubbed version, yeah. Yes, fantastic. Dubbed 12-inch. And the other record from that era,

well, a little bit later actually, that I compare it to, is The Word Girl by Skritty Politi. The 12-inch of that, which I think has got a female MC on it. Yeah. That is a beautiful dubbed 12-inch as well. And yeah, you're right there was almost after that the

scar revival had died out we did have this kind of reggae thing going on with as you mentioned culture club and musical youth and um i suppose there were things like maybe okay fred by errol dunkley was yeah years earlier but but the point point is there are proper reggae records in the charts that it wasn't just sort of white guys from City of Culture, Coventry and just going back on what we mentioned before, isn't it funny that the two things that drag you out of your

hometown at a certain age are either football or pop music you know the first time I left Nottingham was to take me Christmas or my birthday money and go down to London and go to the shop, the shoe shop in Camden where Madness got all the Doc Martens and that and then go down to Carnaby Street.

Yeah, I mean, I got a nice pair of oxblood loafers from that place when I was like 14. Yeah, that's actually immortalised in their film, Take It or Leave It, isn't it? That little shot. Yeah. And it was exactly the same as it was in the film. It was brilliant.

And then, you know, the only other times I'd leave Nottingham was to go down to Leicester, to De Montfort Hall to see the Redskins or down to Birmingham to see Run DMC and the Beastie Boys. So that's just down the road for you. I had to travel hundreds of miles into England to get in here and pop music.

Oh yeah, another country. Yeah. The other band, I mentioned them earlier, that made me do that trip to the same venue actually, to Birmingham NEC, was Big Country. And I know it's really not cool to admit you like them now, but I was so into Big Country. And I did the same thing,

just like bunking off to Birmingham um to see them without any real way of knowing how to come home and um the cults were the support band right and I remember wandering around the car park afterwards looking for any bus that was going to Wales think oh you know if I can at least get as far as Cardiff yeah and then I remember walking down the gap between two coaches and finding Ian Asprey from the cult having sex with a groupie. Oh, lovely. While his bandmates looked on and hung around. And I just almost walked right into them.

And it was this really embarrassing moment. And I actually, rather than just turning around and walking away, I said to them, do you know if there's any buses to Cardiff? And they looked so annoyed with me eventually I found one but boy George I think the general public are doing a really good job of convincing

themselves that he's not gay really, it's just a bit of a he's just putting it on I think that, you know what Simon was mentioning earlier, the day after, because that was one of the, if not the biggest moment in Top of the Pops in the 80s was, do you really want to hurt me on Top of the Pops? It was our Bowie moment, wasn't it?

Absolutely. Yes, star man moment. In the playground, I seem to recall not people saying actually, oh, did you see that hot woman on Top of the Pops last night? It was more confusion. And it was kind of like, you know, was it a bloke or was it a girl? And people who knew once that news started spreading like wildfire. I remember that day really, really palpably.

I'm really, really fascinated to hear Pricey talk about Boy George because it's interesting the way that pop idols, when they really are your idol and they mean things to you, and like Pricey say, they almost take on a role in your life where they're overseeing the decisions you make in a way. Like style decisions, you think, not what would Boy George do, but you know what I mean? You think about them.

Well, the first time I met Pricey, I'm not saying he was like Boy George, but what I mean by that is I could see the influence and I don't even mean see I could hear the influence in a way in the way that Pricey talked the humour, I'm sure it's all Pricey himself but I sort of

I sort of got that slightly the first time I met Pricey Did I have the dreadlocks at the time? You might have done yeah and that might have added to it but um yeah I had like black dreadlocks and makeup so yeah yeah I mean I I loved Culture Club but in 83 um I was still I mean Pricey was talking about really being into the album in that year I still wasn't really listening to albums 83 was a singles year for me still I was still really and it was actually the year i bought my first ever single it couldn't not be more inauspicious it was um men at work overkill don't

ask why i don't know why i bought it but um but yeah for me culture club were all singles i loved karma chameleon and i loved george's description of it in his autobiography is the kind of record everybody buys but nobody likes um but um at the time because I wasn't really listening to the albums I was just listening to the singles and I was quite young I was just getting the surface of Culture Club in a sense um over time you know like like this song um Victims I think at the time I didn't like it was perhaps a little bit too grown up for me and at the time I didn't like it. It was perhaps a little bit too grown up for me. And at the time, I didn't realise that what's vital about Culture Club

and what really makes things like Do You Really Want To Hurt Me work is that mix of real smoothness in the sound, but real pain within the lyrics and within the songs, which oddly, of course, I know now, mirrors the way that the band kind of were had to present themselves as a smooth operation but absolutely tearing each other apart inside victims is absolutely a really really dark dark song that's hidden in a sense within a really gorgeous lush production i love that line i have the strangest void for you it's it's a really

really dark song um but it's it but it occupies the same kind of sound world as almost like a diana ross tune like i'm still waiting or something it's big and epic like that i was wondering if anybody here has heard um which is obviously relevance of victims and the track that was on the culture club compilation uh called shirley temple moment have you heard that yeah um which is i mean that's a real revelation that's them rehearsing this song victims or trying to get a recording done but it's just an astonishing document of anger and rage and hatred and the kind of pressures of of pop that it basically catches a lot of in-between take conversation between the band. It's not exactly conversation. It's a screaming argument.

It starts off with, you know, Boy George getting an argument with Roy, I think, with a great line, fuck off you spotty fucking heterosexual cunt. And then Roy calls him a big nose gay. And it gets worse. It gets worse. It gets really angry and furious.

And for me, it's better than, you know, the Sprinkle the Fairy Does Trogs tape or anything. I was listening to this the other day, and it's just an astonishing little document of the mess, not the mess that band were in, but tough days for them. And if Shirley Temple moment is anything to go by, with such a big, lush video, I bet there was some real bloody arguments on that set.

Well, there must have been, because at this point, it's very clear who the important person in the band is. And you hardly see the rest of the band, do you, in this? Yeah, but you say the important person in the band, yes and no, because that Shirley Temple moment dynamic, it was laid bare in that BBC... Was it BBC Two documentary? and puts on the band? Yes and no, because that Shirley Temple moment dynamic, it kind of, it was laid bare in that BBC, was it BBC Two documentary?

Yes. BBC Four a couple of years ago when they had one of their occasional reunions. Yeah. And they were still bitching with each other, but the thing that became really clear, and I actually interviewed them a couple of years ago for a thing that didn't run

because it was supposed to promote a gig at the O2 that got cancelled. Right. for a thing that didn't run because it was supposed to promote a gig at the O2 that got cancelled. But one thing that became clear is that Roy Hay is the real musician in the band. I'm not saying the others can't play, but he's a real... He composes for Hollywood movies and stuff like that, but he's the

real multi-instrumentalist who holds the whole thing together. So it's all very well, you know, George calling him a spotty heterosexual or whatever, but they needed Roy Hay big time. Yeah, but also Roy Hay was definitely much the Trevor Boulder of the band, wasn't he? He never looked comfortable in

whatever clothes they tried to put him in. That is true enough. And also, you know, as great as the music might have been, and a lot of that is down to Steve Levine, the producer. Yeah. Incredible work. George, I mean, they'd be nothing without George,

not just visually, but vocally. What a singer, George. Yeah. People just, I mean, I still think people don't give him enough credit for being one of the great British soul voices. And on that record, Colour Boy Numbers, as I say, you had two. You had him and Helen Terry. And when the record, Colour Boy Numbers, as I say, you had two. You had him and Helen Terry. And when the two of them

get together on tracks like That's The Way I'm Only Trying To Help You and Black Money, it's just astonishing. And even on the following album, which was one of these great 80s cocaine follies where you almost hear a band falling apart, waking up with a

house on fire, there are tracks like Mistake No. 3, which are good enough to have been on Philadelphia records in the 1970s in terms of the feel and the production of it. I'd say Victims is like that. Victims is a great, great sort of, yeah, soul ballad. It's just a lovely, lovely song. Listening to the Shirley Temple moment thing, I think what comes across is they did need George.

It's very telling what shouted at George. Things like, go to your next party and things like that. And there's a kind of, there's a ganging up to a slight, in a slight sense of everyone in the band who isn't George against George a little bit. But I

don't know how intolerable George was being at the time. But yeah, if you get a chance seek out Shirley Temple moment for a snapshot you could imagine he would have been hard work let's be honest oh without a doubt but I mean as soon as he opens his mouth and starts singing it's just astonishing and

you've got to feel for John Moss in this video because not only has he got to stand there at the very apex of the fucking orchestral pyramid listening to this song that's about him he's also got to play a load of kettle drums when the sound

is of an actual drum kit thinking oh god people are going to think I'm going to look like a right cunt doing this what would have happened to the band if the relationship between George and John Moss had got out then I think at the time it would have killed them. Any, you know, I remember last time I was on Chart Music

discussing how Freddie Mercury wasn't gay to anyone apart from my mum. Yeah. You know, I genuinely at the time was completely oblivious to it. It's odd really when you think that, you know, ABBA could make their breakups and their relationships completely public in a sense through their songs, so could Fleetwood Mac but with Culture Club

there was never the understanding I don't think amongst any of us, including the fans that George was singing about John But I'm absolutely certain that the tabloids knew, all the papers knew, but as long as he was playing the game and giving them good value and selling them copies by being on the front cover

they would keep it quiet but as soon as that was no longer the case, as soon as Culture Club had faded away, they just could not wait to get stuck in with Boy George's Heroin Hell and all that stuff. Yeah, I mean because round about this time I think

it was, was it Colour By Numbers where Boy George gives a credit to John Blake and the Big Value Son? Doesn't he? Yeah. I think it's that album, mate. It's definitely one of them. But yeah, I mean, the other thing that needs mentioning,

on top of everything else we've spoken about, is that, you know, this was expected to be the nailed-on Christmas number one, and it didn't happen for them. But the idea that you keep your powder dry for the end of the year for the Christmas number one, it's not really happened yet, has it? How do you mean? Well, let's take the following year, for example. If you take Do They Know It's Christmas out of the equation,

in the charts a year from now, you've got Wham! Last Christmas. You've got Power of Love by Frankie Goes to Hollywood. You've got Thank God It's Christmas by Queen. Spandau Ballet, Madonna, Paul McCartney, Human League. They're all in that chart. And that's some fucking heavy hitters for 1984 in there. I suppose a lot of those singles would have been, at that time, stand-alone or they were for albums that hadn't yet

come out. Whereas Victims is from an album track that a lot of people already owned. At this time, we were starting to... I mean, it was always an issue, kind of, what was Christmas number one. But I think we'd lost that umbilicus that it had to be a Christmas song, in a sense, in 81 with Don't You Want Me being number one. It just proved

that, you know, it just proved that a great record could be number one rather than something that was necessarily Christmas related. So two weeks later, Victims dropped one place to number four and the follow up, It's A Miracle also got to number four in March of 1984. The Creature From The Black Lagoon Peel, at the head of a queue of tinsel-wearing,

pop-crazed youngsters, compares George's black-hatted appearance with the creature from the Black Lagoon and introduces The Way You Are by Tears for Fears. Formed in Bath in 1981 by Roland Orzabal and Kurt Smith from the Ashes of Mods Scar Band Graduate, fucking plastic mods, Tears for Fears were originally

called History of Headaches but changed their name when they got into Arthur Yanoff's Primal Scream Therapy nonsense. They were assigned to Phonogram Records in late 1981 and after their first two singles failed to chart, their third, Mad World, got to number three in November

of 1982. This is their third single of 1983 and the follow-up to Pale Shelter which got to number three in November of 1982. This is their third single of 1983 and the follow up to Pale Shelter which got to number five in May of this year. It's been released as a stop gap between their first LP The Hurting and the one they're currently working from Songs from the Big Chair and it's currently stuck at number 29. They've wisely elected to perform the single in the studio instead of showing the video which features Roland Orsabold doing improvisational dancing

in what can only be described as a bra top. It's most unsavoury. It really is. Tears for Fears. I mean, you know, when I do the show notes for this, I send you a little bit of prep saying I want to talk about this, I want to talk about that.

Tears for Fears, it's like, what the fuck can I say about them? They were that kind of band in 1983 that I didn't like and didn't hate and didn't have any feelings towards whatsoever. I mean, they're essentially a second generation synth group, aren't they?

I think they were similarly ambivalent towards themselves at this point um you mentioned that this song was a stopgap single and you mentioned it was a follow-up to pale shelter well pale shelter itself was a reissue at that point when it when it actually charted so they were taking their time and um the sound on this track is a throwback to the hurting rather than a throw forward to songs from The Big Chair because it's got that synth sound that sounds like a sort of pretend xylophone thing going on. But they look pretty bored don't they?

Yes they do, yes. It's not surprising it's a bit of a nothing song. Yeah I mean old Roberto Baggio there on lead vocals, He's not really given it much, is he? He's not, no. This song has been kind of unpersoned in a Stalinistic way by Tears For Fears now. They never play it live. They leave it off all their greatest hits compilations and all of that.

That's right, yeah. I think it's the only song that they didn't completely write, so I don't know if they're being minger towards the other songwriters who they've fallen out with or something who knows? I think Kurt said it was the worst thing we've done that was his praise of the single

I used to find them pretentious and I've got nothing against bands pop groups being clever in fact I thrive I live for clever pop but I think they had an unearned sense of their own cleverness. They thought they were more, they thought they were deeper

and more important. With all that stuff you mentioned, the primal screen therapy and the kind of pretentious philosophy that they bought into. They had this unearned sense of their own importance. That's what kind of bugged me about them. Having said that, Pale Shelter, brilliant. Mad World, brilliant. but beyond that

they're a bit yeah mad world is the one that snagged me and for the you know for the longest time i didn't know what tears for fears looked like because i remember mad world getting the load of radio play before it cracked with charts yeah and before they got on top of the pop so they got in smash hits and i remember being horrified when i finally saw what they look like because what were you expecting well i wasn't expecting orzabal i i really objected to his appearance i don't know why um they they also see they seem to have they settled into a pattern then a fairly unmemorable singles really i quite like change i guess but with videos all seemingly shot in milton keynes lots of square panes of glass and stuff. Or Docklands.

Yeah, but it was blatant to me that, yeah, they looked awful. And it was really about the hair. The hair on both of the main figures is terrible. And by the time... Orzabal's got a nasty frizz to him. Yeah, and in this performance, he looks like Miriam Margolis in the wind tunnel. He always reminded me of David Schneider out of The Day Today.

Ah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I'm just seeing him with his head through a big map of Britain and someone turning it round. I mean, in 83, I was hatefully shallow about pop music, and I still am hopefully at times. But the hair was... I mean, they were just one of those acts that repulsed me in a sense. hatefully shallow about pop music, and I still am hopefully at times, but the hair was, I mean, they were just one of those acts that repulsed me in a sense.

The only other comparison I can give is Andy McCluskey from OMD repulsed me as well at the time, and Roger Daltrey has always repulsed me. But, you know, I wouldn't eat a sandwich made by these people. That should be the way we judge pop. They'd leave, yeah yeah they'd leave thumbprints

in it or something do you know what i mean yeah and also the rest of the bands now hang on a minute neil i want to go into this which which pop groups would you eat sandwiches this is really important i need to know um like which who'd be the pop group you think yeah i'd definitely eat a sandwich well there's lots there's lots of pop groups i'd eat sandwiches from it's more about the pop groups i certainly wouldn't and and i think i think the perhaps the one i most definitely definitely would not is the thompson twins i would not eat a fucking sandwich made by this they look dirty you know those people who even if they're clean just look grubby to me that's what the thompson twins were and of course the th course, the Thompson twins, they do it as a community thing, you know,

or we've got to do equal amounts of work. Yeah. You've got three pairs of hands on your sandwich. Yeah, and it'd be like cheese and banana or something. I mean, for me, E17, they just look like the type of lads who'd spend all the time with their hands down the tracksuit bottoms.

And you definitely don't want to get involved with a baked potato with them, that's for sure. No, you certainly wouldn't. There wouldn't be any, would there? No, there wouldn't. And I think, you know, you want, say, in a cheese sandwich, I personally would like the cheese to be kind of regularly cut to a thinness. Whereas I think E17 would just break it off with that sort of chomping that would then poke holes in the bread

no I would want a sandwich I think the women in Brotherhood of Man they'd make a lovely sandwich I think with a crescent of crisps yes definitely a crescent of crisps but yeah

I think repulsion becomes a part of my pop experience in 83 to a large extent. And looking at the rest of the band who aren't the main two, you know, it's very man at C&A, man at BHS, denim shirts. And, you know, what we're seeing in 83 is that music has gone from the weirdos to the competent musicians, and it creates a sort of tedium around the mainstream that means that any ruptures you get in that from here on in, say Pete Burns, become more and more cherishable because there's this fucking go Westie, Tears for Fizzy

sort of dross around them. But yeah, for me, all about the hair, and the hair's terrible. Yeah, certainly post-Live Aid, Pete Burns was the one, wasn't he? Yeah, absolutely. It's basically him and maybe Zizek Sputnik briefly. Yeah. Yeah, I mean, the other thing that pisses me off about this performance is old Roland is wearing a he's

wearing a gray vest over a black shirt which was a style that was very popular in 1983 and one that i always thought looked absolutely fucking brilliant on women just just really really attractive on women but it looked really shit on men they looked like they were extras in fame gray and black was the color scheme. Grey, black and burgundy. As you mentioned. I'll tell you who I think defined the aesthetic of 1983 more than anyone else is Paul Young, particularly the

album sleeve of No Parley, which is kind of burgundy and grey as I remember it. And he's wearing this kind of grey suit with flecks in it. And that, I mean, basically everything you've got from wallpaper in teenagers' bedrooms to duvet covers to everything was kind of pale grey and burgundy.

Grey-flecked Burton suits. Yeah, slightly speckled with urine after a trip to the toilet. Nasty, nasty times. And of course, as always, Zua at the front reacting to this very doomy song as if it was merry christmas everyone by shaker and and going woo during the middle age it's like have you not listened to the lyrics you stupid stupid bastards and at the end kid

jensen says they're going by helicopter to a gig in Poole in Dorset, but the thing is, that's just how most people in Poole in Dorset normally travel it's a very wealthy town I mean, one of the synth players, they're backed up at this point, it's like, okay

so we use synths, but we're a proper band, trust us look, we've got a proper drum kit we've got two other blokes at the side one of them actually looks like a woodwork teacher Tears for Fears

look like they're backed up they look like they're constipated it's got a pained expression yes it's a mad world and if you are listening to this Tears for Fears we might sound critical

but we're only trying to help you Rowland hey hey thank you sorry Al Tears for Fears. We might sound critical, but we're only trying to help you, Rolando. Hey! Hey! Thank you. Sorry, Al. I play a keyboard in my band

and it's a Roland one and my bass player has stuck. I only want to help you next to the Roland. Yes! Two weeks later, The Way You Are nudged up one place to number 28 and will get as high as number 24. The follow-up, Mother's Talk, got to number 14 in September of 1984,

and the follow-up to that, Shout, made it to number 4 in December of that year and would get to number 1 in America. And as we've already mentioned, the band left The Way You Are off their Greatest Hits album, claiming it was their worst song and proof that they'd changed direction. Oh, and they eventually met Arthur Yanov in the mid-80s, but they felt he'd gone all Hollywood, and he kept asking them to do a musical about him.

In terms of psychologists who had an influence on pop, his was the most damaging, I would think. Just nothing but a bad influence on John Lennon, on Primal Scream, which, Primal Scream's got to be one of the shittest band names ever. And a terrible band as well. And also Tears For Physicals.

And also one of the most mismatched band names when you heard their early stuff, like Velocity Girl. And there's a band called Primal Scream. You expect them to sound like, I don't know, you know, a motorhead or something.

And they come out sounding like the most twee, jangly thing in the world. They should have called themselves Scottish Whinge. No, they should have called themselves Leather Trouser Gusset Chafe. That was a second album. The way you are, Tears for Fears, who now are going to leave by helicopter

for a gig tonight at Gould and Dorset. Good luck, guys. Next up, it's Billy Joel. Tell her about it. This is an old American recreation of a TV variety show. Thank you, Thomas. Thank you, Thomas.

Thank you, Topo Gigio. And now right here on our stage, BJ and the Affordables. Listen boy, I don't want to see you let a good thing slip away Kid, accompanied by a female member of Zoo who hangs on to his every word tells us that Tears for Fears are currently being rushed into a helicopter in order to get to their gig in Poole and introduces the next video, Tell Her About It, by Billy Joel We discussed Billy Joel only last episode in september of 1980 and after a barren period in the uk he roared back with uptown girl which got to

number one in early november of this year and was still at number one at the beginning of this month and he's still in the charts at number 14 this is the follow-up to that song in the UK but it was actually the first cut in the US from his latest LP An Innocent Man and it got to number one over there in September. We're shown the video which is set in the Ed Sullivan Theatre in the summer of 1963 with an Ed Sullivan lookalike and also featuring Rodney Dangerfield and it's up this week from number 8 to number 7. I mean reviving the early 60s was a definite thing in 1983 wasn't it? We've already had Hard Take Avenue by Lowell Mason and the Masonettes

and You Can't Hurry Love by Phil Collins and we've seen Elton try to recreate a 60s show now we're seeing it done properly aren't we? This is what money from an American record company gets you. Kid Jensen gets his words slightly wrong doesn't he? This is what money from an American record company gets you. Yeah. Um, kid Jensen gets his words slightly wrong,

doesn't he? He says, this is an old American recreation of a TV show. I mean, they're the right words, but in the wrong order. Yeah. So yeah,

we've, we've got this, um, Ed Sullivan impersonator introducing BJ and the affordables. Yes. And then, uh, we cut to this Lothario in the production gantry hitting on a colleague and

blowing cigarette smoke in her face, the sexy devil. Yes. I've got to admit, I've probably got more notes for this than any other song in the episode. It is a fucking great video, isn't it? It is. There's an instance of that classic music video trope, which is disapproving

parents in a living room. So, tutting at music on the telly while the kids are bang into it but but mainly the thing is it's that thing of um various couples having a communication breakdown and yes joel himself pops up in the middle of them trying to mediate like a rock and roll jeremy yes but more like more like a rock and roll graham out Jeremy Cullen. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And there's one scene, this is the creepiest thing, where Billy Joel delivers pizzas to a slumber party where young women are hanging around in negligees.

And at that point, I scribbled in my notes, doubtless just about to have a pillow fight and the pillow explodes and there are feathers everywhere in a deleted scene. But I scribbled too soon because a few seconds later, it actually happens. And the creepiest bit is that Joel lurks in the doorway with his dark glasses on.

Billy, we know why you've got your dark glasses on. Yes. And I bet there's a hole in one of those pizza boxes at the bottom. You're choosing to see the creepy side of Billy Joel going around and interfering in people's lives i prefer to see it as he's the representative of music reaching out and changing people's lives for the better yeah that that shook you up didn't it i mean this video is i think it's fucking brilliant it's just it's just loads of people seeing this new song and going batshit over

it and uh you know he's he's batshit over it. And, you know, he's basically acting out the lyrics by saying, you know, tell her about it. There's something creepy about Billy Joel for me, and I don't quite know what it is. And am I, I'm probably oversensitive here. I detected faint

racism in this video. And it's just down to the head movements of the black people in the video are you talking about the backing singers or the people in the bar the people in the bar right the people in the bar not the backing singers but um i haven't really i mean i'm interested that you and pricey have made most notes about this um i've made the least notes about this actually i don't feel so bad for hogging the conversation now The only thing Billy Joel's annoyed me of late

because I listen to Radio 3 a lot now that I'm an old man and they fucking played I listened to Radio 3 for serious classical music and the other night they played Billy Joel's Piano Concerto which I stomached about a minute of it it sounded as terrible as when

opera singers sing jazz standards it was horrible Radio 3 what's happened to you? I don't know Are you sure you've not tuned in your radio properly? No I need to put those stickers back on but no

this song do you like the song Al? I think it's the best song on the whole episode by a mile. Wow. I love it. I bought it and I played it till it was the thickest and flexiest disc. I loved it. Because I loved anything that sounded a bit like Motown at the time.

And it was just storming tune, I thought this. It really did. Far better than Uptown Girl. Yeah. Which I thought was a bit of a dad song but you hate it do you Neil don't you like it Neil I think I'm just

averse to Billy Joel I've not got I've not got anything against short people but I don't know point to prove

perhaps I don't know something something about Billy Joel has always slightly wound me up so consequently you know andy joel has always slightly wound me up um so consequently you know an uptown girl really fucking wound me up and we didn't start the fire

is hilarious don't get me wrong yes but um yeah i think i prefer billy joel videos to his music and this video i mean is it is a i've got to admit the video is there's tons to look at and it's a lovely big expensive american video yeah with tons to look at so i would have loved it at the time it's only my um crotchety old self that probably has problems i love i love the big chunky cbs cameras just want to throw that in i just love i just love old style tv cameras but a lot of it was lost on me because you know in this country we didn't really know who we didn't know who Ed Sullivan was so we just see this guy doing this weird

kind of, I don't know I think people a bit older than us would know Ed Sullivan you reckon? he was the man who broke the Beatles and Elvis in America I mean a lot of people would have thought what's Richard Nixon doing on this yeah that's who I thought

and I didn't know who Rodney, I still don't know would have thought, what's Richard Nixon doing on this? Yeah, that's what I thought. And I didn't know who Rodney, I still don't know who Rodney Dangerfield is, to be honest. We don't see him on this episode of Top 8. He's right at the end and he's one of them comedians that America loves and everyone in Britain goes, hmm. Yeah, I only know him as Mallory's dad in Natural Born Killers. That's it.

Yeah. Two weeks later, Teller About It would nudge up from number 7 to number 6 and eventually get to number 4 the follow up

An Innocent Man would spend three weeks at number 8 in March of 1984 Teller About It Girl don't want to wait to know

you can tell Teller About It That's Billy Joel. Isn't it great that he's got two records in the top 14? Here are Dennis Waterman and George Cole. Oh, listen to that offer. That's your actual boat bells. Listen to that.

It's great that the public's not afraid. You to that, it's the greatest of the public's far as there. It should be reported to the Noiser Baseball Society. Oh, do leave off, it's Christmas, isn't it? Time of goodwill. Time of make it, William Bean. I've only just got over £1.50 for the guy, mister. It's going to be a penny in my head. Yeah, well, Queen Victoria's dead, isn't she? I suppose it's going to be GBH and ear holes from carol singers.

Oh, cheer up, will you? Moan, moan, moan, that's all I ever get from you. It's tough and it's lonely in top management. Peel, accompanied this time by a huge middle-aged Jeff Capes lookalike in a grey jumper with his gold medallion in his mouth, presumably one of the cameramen or floor staff, tells us that it's great that joel is spraying his musk across the charts and as the beardo spits his medallion out he introduces the next song what are we gonna

get her indoors by dennis waterman and george cole formed in the winchester club in 1979 dennis waterman and george cole were the principal characters in Minder, the enormously successful ITV drama series about a massively unscrupulous trader and his henchmen. Cole had never performed on a single up until now, but he was the subject of Arthur Daler, He's Alright, which the firm took to number 14 in August of 1982. But Dennis Waterman had form, releasing the LPs Downwind of Angels in 1976 and Waterman a year later.

And he got to number three in November of 1980 with the theme tune to Minder, I Could Be So Good For You. It's up this week from number 52 to number 26, and they're in the studio for a genuinely live performance. But before we go into that, let's go back to the Jeff Capes lookalike. Who do you think he was? Do you think he was one of the floor managers? He's got to be. He can't have been a person who wanted to get tickets to go and see. He can't be.

He looks like fucking Zangief from Street Fighter. Yes, he does. He really does. He really, really odd presence. Bigger than anyone in there. A man mountain. Yeah. And if that's what the floor managers look like on top of the horse,

no wonder the kids are fucking cowering. He looks like he can snap your neck like a twig. Yeah. Yeah, he could pull a truck with his teeth. Yeah, a camera. Maybe that's what he's doing. Maybe he's pulling one of the big cameras by his teeth and going, fuck off out the way

it could i mean maybe it is jeff capes i'm not sure because yeah no i'm just you know at christmas anything goes maybe he was filming world's strongest man somewhere and he just strolled in but um yeah an alarming and disturbing presence in there and why does he spit his medallion out i don don't get that. It's not really a medallion it's one of them kind of like gold little gold bars on a chain which always look rubbish because you think well isn't something supposed to be hanging off that?

The reason he does that is sheer boredom. If you've ever worn a work lanyard it will have ended up in your mouth at some point. You'll have been walking around with it and you'll have spat it out in exactly the same way that this guy did. But on telly, wouldn't someone have said oh come on now, we can't have that, it's Christmas.

So anyway, Waterman and Cole. I mean, it's got to be said that Minder was similarly to Bourne George was becoming an 80s institution. It was. At my house, we never watched it. Well, I never watched it.

It was on too late. And also, ITV went off after Corrie, never to return, really. We were very much a bit of a BBC house. When this song comes on, I felt an overwhelming impulse to leave the room and not watch it. Because, and the reason being,

that was an exact recall of the way i would have felt um in 83 and whereas now if there's a channel 5 three hour program you know like 50 most embarrassing moments in pop i'll be there with the popcorn watching it um back then embarrassment wasn't something that i liked or enjoyed in part yeah and and this is just really fucking embarrassing i would have left the room it's like an acting performance it's mortifying and it's just not

a record that should be on top of the pops to a certain extent it's a dead spot in the show but it's if they were even if they did

this competently that'd be one thing but it's just on the edge of falling apart you can see George Cole's lips moving

when Dennis Waterman's doing his lines and vice versa. Because, you know, it's quite a complex back and forth. In hip hop, you call it a posse cut, I guess, you know. Or a cypher. Yeah, yeah.

There's this back and forth thing and they're quite complex lines and they're only just kind of holding on to something that, doubtless in the studio took a whole day and several bottles of scotch to get right but um but live i i really had to resist the overwhelming urge to either leave the room or as you do as a child when you're embarrassed by something not cover your eyes cover your ears just so you can't hear it i mean they are performing it double live you

know it's an actual live spoken word performance on live television so uh you know you've got to give you've got to give that to them trained actors and everything obviously but you know and of course it doesn't help that the sound levels are fucked right at the beginning and we can hardly hear them yeah yeah but it's not pop this is variety really and it should be on a variety show it shouldn't be on top of the pots it's a waste of you know a few minutes of precious t.o.t.p time simon i um never used to watch minder but i think my mum must have because um i've got this real memory of when the theme tune came on and i should be so good for you i'd usually be lying on the sofa and i'd start i'd sort of start kicking my legs and

clapping my hands and sort of doing this stupid dance to it because i really i i really enjoyed that song but then once the actual program stopped i'd just go upstairs and play sabutio or something um yeah um the the intro to this apparently um interpolates in the bleak midwinter so um i i look this up on uh discogs and uh actually gustav holst gets a songwriting credit on this track yeah yeah it's amazing he got a nice little earner from it you say yeah yeah you've got a few reddies in his back bin. Well, all these catchphrases, I mean, George Cole actually uses the phrase GBH of the year

in this record, which I think was one of the catchphrases. My favourite bit, though, is where it sounds as if Dennis Waterman is saying, hold on, here comes jism. Hold on, here comes jism. Yes, yes. Which is amazing, and somebody should sample that

and stick it over like man to man featuring man to man but apparently it's a character called Chism from the show yeah and yeah

Minder was so popular that this piece of absolute shit could get to number 20 something in the charts and I'll tell you what what annoys me about it um many things annoy me about it but this is something that always annoys me about records is when the official title isn't what they actually sing what he sings is what will i get

for christmas for her indoors but the title is what are we going to get her indoors in the song it's yeah what like what will i get like what will i get for christmas for her indoors not not what are we gonna but what will i get yeah i mean this has been super pedantic but these are the thoughts that scroll through my mind when i'm watching this this uh this performance because i remember what when i watched this for the first time well well, you know, for this, it was like, oh, Kid Jensen got the title wrong. What a knob.

No, he hadn't. He was right and I was wrong. I apologise to David. It's a classic example of a record that will be bought once, sorry, bought and played once and that's it. Because why is anyone going to play it again? It's unbelievable, isn't it? That somebody would sit and play that repeat. Imagine if you were married to

someone and this is what they got you. Well, yeah, especially because it's a list of here's what you could have had. You could have had a dodgy fur coat. You could have had some caustic perfume or some cheap saucy underwear among the things that get listed. And then what you get is that record.

Yeah. It'd be terrible, wouldn't it? I mean, of course this was the time before, you know, there was the concept of Ferrero Roches in all-night garages. The one thing that was crossing my mind was how much worse would this have been if it had been Del Boy and Rodney.

But Del Boy and Rodney wouldn't. With Grandad doing some beatboxing or something. But Del Boy and Rodney wouldn't have done this. Dennis Waterman's always wanted to be a pop star, hasn't he? He's always wanted to do songs and stuff. Famously as parodied on Little Britain. Yeah, exactly. But I mean, the syntactical

inaccuracy that Price is pointing out about the title, I'm going to now add that to my list of irritations about this song. But really, it's the fact that it's on Top of the Pops at all that bugs me. It's not particularly the song. If our songs buy shit music, then that's fine.

But it's such a waste of five precious minutes of Top of the Pops. So, two weeks later, what are we going to get? Erringdorf's moved up to number 21, its highest position. This was fucking January. Fucking people,

they anger me so much. The duo split up in 1989 and an attempt to replace Waterman with Gary Webster just didn't have the same magic. I wonder how many copies of this Arthur Daly had in his lock-up. I wonder how many coppers of this Arthur Daly had in his lock up What are we going to get

for early indoors I wish it was January the 7th What are we going to get for early indoors Yeah, when that carol's singing Yeah, I wish he'd stop, come on I've got a podge of army surplus Christmas puddings I want shifting, come on

Yeah! Now that was Dennis L Rodman and George Colton. That reminds me, have you got my Christmas present yet? Uh, you know, it's in the post, you know what I mean? Pathetic, isn't it? You ready to do the charts? I think so. Here we go.

From number 30. At number 30 this week, the assembly, Never Never. Still at 29, The Way You Are from Tears for Fears. Eurythmics are at number 28, Right By Your Side. Rollin' Rat goes up 1 to 27 with Rat Rapping. At 26, a chart entry in What Are We Gonna Get Her Indoors. At 25, Say Say Say from McCartney and Jackson. At 24, Cry Just a Little Bit, Shake and Stevens.

Maryland's at number 23, calling you a name. At 22, a chart entry from Paul McCartney, Pipes of Peace. And at 21, Club Fantastic, Megamix from when? But let's go back to number 22 now, okay? You don't mind, do you? At number 22, we're going to join Paul McCartney. This is his latest video. We're going to join him in the trenches for Pipes of Peace. Paul McCartney. This is his latest video. We're going to join him in the trenches for Pipes of Peace. Hey, one of your favorites, I know. I light a candle to our love In love our problems disappear After having a bit of banter about missing Christmas presents and reading off the charts from number 30 to number 21

and waiting for the video to start, Kid introduces Pipes of Peace by Paul McCartney. After being the bassist in The Beatles, a 60s band which got to number 29 with a cover of H.E. Sweet in 1964 and then going on to be the lead singer of Wings, Paul McCartney went properly solo in late 1979 and scored five top 10 hits in the early 80s. This is the second cut from the new LP of the same name and the follow-up to Say, Say, Say, the duet with Michael Jackson, which got to number two the previous month,

and is still in the charts at number 25. It's up this week from number 54 to number 22, and is accompanied by a video shot on Chobham Common in Surrey, which recreates the horrors of World War I, when McCartney was pitted against McCartney, and specifically the 1914 Christmas truce where the Tommies and Fritz had a good old kick around and got properly pissed up

before going back to killing each other. This video, it is the fucking Sainsbury's advert, isn't it? Oh yeah, they totally stole that in 2014, didn't they? Down to the exchanging of things and running off with them absolutely oh by the way that that that scene where um uh the the two characters swap photos of their of their women um i mean that that's kind of i find that a bit odd in itself they're basically looking at them going not bad and like nowadays you know nowadays young men do that via X Hamster or Pornhub.

Yes. But in those days they had more primitive methods. Do you notice in the intro to this, by the way, Kid Jensen, he's using a piece of paper instead of an autocue. Yeah. And it's scrunched up in his hand when he's pointing at the camera. I found that a bit weird. It was very Chamberlain-like, wasn't it? I have in my hand a piece of paper.

So in the States this wasn't the A-side, was it? This was the B-side, and so bad was the A-side. I find that odd. Is that just because, you know, McCartney thought that a message of peace wouldn't go down very well in Reagan's America at the time? No, don't. I bet it was partly that.

I bet it was partly that. Yeah. The photo that McCartney hands, sorry, that British McCartney hands to German british mccartney hands to german mccartney is to von cartney yeah yeah that that photo if you look it actually is linda isn't it yeah i'm certain it's linda mccartney in that sort of fake oldie time black and white photo um my my main memory of this song i mean it, it's one of those things that, on the one hand,

you've got to applaud it for being so incredibly catchy, and it sets out, it achieves what it sets out to do, which is to stick in your brain. I mean, I kind of hated it, but the main thing I remember about it was that McCartney had been busted for drugs in Japan a couple of years earlier, and he would be busted for drugs in Barbados

not long after this record was a hit. So we sang, it's called Smoke the Pipes of Pot instead. We thought that was so clever. Apparently he got fucked over by Yoko Ono, didn't he, there in that bust in Japan? Did he? Well, yeah.

Well, I mean, according to the Albert Goldman book gotta preface it with that oh so hang on a minute so you're saying that if Yoko Ono hadn't sort of tipped off the authorities there's no way they would have thought hmm Paul McCartney's coming to Japan there's no way that a former member of the Beatles might have any drugs on him yeah well there is that but apparently um you know that him and Lennon were talking to each other and he was they were just about to tour Japan. And McCartney happened to mention that, oh, we're going to be in the same hotel room that you have,

the Presidential Suite in the Tokyo Hilton or whatever it is. And apparently John was very pissed off with this because they had really good hotel karma. And they were worried that it was going to, I don't know, stink of vegetarian sausages after the mccartney's have been it and so apparently yeah uh yoko had a cousin or something in customs and um you know something got mentioned and uh something happened hotel karma's gonna get you and apparently lennon really enjoyed the fact that the police officers made McCartney play Yesterday on a guitar over and over and over.

But then again, McCartney got his revenge later on when John Lennon got shot and American TV and radio would play nothing but Yesterday. It's fucking weird, man. Honestly, there are radio broadcasts out there on the internet of american radio in the other morning of lennon shooting and all the beatle songs they play are all mccartney songs for fuck's sake yeah the terrible he was kind of the only active beatle in a sense at this stage wasn't he really pretty much yeah you know busy at the age of 41 um making records with a message of you know a complex message befitting his age and wisdom that war is bad and then he did another one saying racism is bad and then he did another one saying not all standing together is bad um now you know

what right we all stand together i've had a real epiphany on this i think it's lovely i really do obviously at the time i would have hated it because I was a sulky teenager. I think it's got a charming cartoon video and I think that its message is basically trade unionism. It's solidarity, man.

I mean, we're going to come to trade union solidarity later in the episode, listeners. Yeah. The NUA. National Union of Amphibians. to trade union solidarity later in the episode listeners yeah the the nua national union of amphibians but i don't know the sappiness of the message of this um it is a really really catchy song i will give it that um um the sappiness of the message it's it's it's like it feels like educational music in a way. It feels like the sort of thing that the big telly on wheels would have got wheeled into the classroom

and would have been shown in the video. Yes, yes. Instead of, you know, the side-on thermal image of an erect penis that we used to get with other educational TV that we were watching. It's an odd... What? We never got that. Oh, God, we got that. What school an odd... What? We never got that. Oh, God, we got that.

What school did you go to? Well, good point. But, I mean, no, we saw a sex education thing. I think it was about 83. And it started off with just the normal things of boys and girls jumping into swimming pools and, you know, boys and girls are different and they start growing different.

And then suddenly it cut to a thermal camera image of a cock becoming erect. No shit. The bizarrest thing. What kind of music was going with it? Was it really doomy synth music? It should have been some heavy wah-wah funk, obviously. But it wasn't. I remember a startling, shocking image.

But when we got the sex education videos the first thing that happened would be the big telly was wheeled in the big beat-em-up slab was shoved in it and then the teacher would just fuck off and go and have a fag and so we just sat there and you know of course anarchy takes over but i mean the one thing i remember is that they did an act you, they showed a full childbirth film. And right at the end, when the afterbirth came out, this is the only thing I can remember from sex education, is when the afterbirth came out, Gary Kirk turned around and said, Hey, you could fry that up in a fucking pan, couldn't you? Like a pizza.

And this one girl just threw up all over the floor. And, you know, I mean, looking back on that now, what kind of upbringing was he having where, you know, you fried up a pizza in a pan? What the fuck is that all about? I thought you were going to say that after seeing this birth on the school telly that your mates all rolled on their backs in their split stay press

and stuck their legs in the air and reenacted it. That would have been brilliant. Oh, dear. We were such chatty little cunts, we were. Well, it's a really oddly arranged song, though, with lots of different sort of time signatures and stuff in it. Down to the clever cleverness

of George Martin, I guess. But it's another song I'm afraid to keep mentioning this. I've had to do covers of this. And when you learn a song, you change your relationship with it to a certain extent. I had nothing really against Paul McCartney before

I learned Pipes of Peace. But it's a clever fucking song, man. And it's a pain extent i had nothing really against paul mccartney before i learned pipes of peace but it's a clever fucking song man and it's a pain in the ass to fucking learn it so so by the end of learning it i was i was furious with the man but um yeah um very very undeniably hugely hugely catchy um the timing of the release of it he really really wants to be part of our christ, doesn't he? Yes, he does. He really, really wants to make a Christmas song. This is, without a doubt, one of the kind of memorable Christmas songs of the 80s. Surprising it did get to number one, actually. But as for the video, if a band did this nowadays, recreated the 1914 Christmas truce,

I think there'd be a lot of fuss about it, even, you know, before the Sainsbury's nonsense. But I can't remember anybody giving a shit about it then. Everyone thought, oh, this is good, this is nice. I think people learnt about that story. I didn't know about that story, if it supposedly happened. I didn't know about that story until this video. I think, you know, I learnt about that Christmas truce through pipes apiece. Because it was, you know i learned about that christmas truce through pipes of

peace because it was you know selling you a record as opposed to some poncy biscuits in this in this video it's legitimate the lyrics don't exactly carry the message over properly because there's a few odd ones and i really really don't like the line uh planet we're living on is it the only one what are we going to do there's something about that bugs me as well. When the swap happens in the TV advert it's chocolate isn't it so I'm thinking that in that situation the Brit is really getting the best end

of the deal, getting some German chocolate and the German guys are like what the fuck is this yeah, well really I mean if this video was made today the German would end up with a packet of Linda McCartney's sausages with the words, you can do it right now, please, written on it. I mean, the other question the video raises is,

what would have happened if Paul McCartney was German? Well, he wouldn't have been a pop star. No. We didn't have German pop stars in the 60s, did we? Not really, no. That made it over here. No. So he might have bided his time, joined a crack rock collective, no we didn't have German pop stars in the 60s did we that made it over here I mean no so he might have

bided his time joined a crack rock collective around about 1969 and be written about by

David Stubbs right now wow yes yeah that's right and he'd be better known for temporary secretary

than for hey Jude so two weeks later Pipes of Peace would soar up to number nine and eventually get to number one for two weeks.

Paul McCartney's only solo number one. The follow-up, No More Lonely Nights, would get to number two in October of 1984. In 2014, Sainsbury's would run an advert... Oh, I'm not talking about those cunts. Fuck them. I'm going to... Lidl, anything else we need to say about this?

Can I just say, I've got to throw in, you can edit it if you want, but Neil's thermal image of an erect penis at school. Yeah, we need to get back to this. What it should have been accompanied by, of course, is Dennis Waterman saying... Hold on, here comes the schism. Paul McCartney he's a bit of a philosopher

isn't he now we're going to go back to the charts and it's going to be me reading them chart entry number 20 from Slade Merry Christmas everybody

at 19 cool on the gang and straight ahead at 18 Chart entry at number 20 from Slade. Merry Christmas, everybody. At 19, Cool and the Gang and Straight Ahead. At 18, That's All from Genesis. At 17, Barry Manilow, Hear Him and Weep. At 16, UB40, Many Rivers to Cross. The Pretenders are at 15, 2,000 Miles, Go On, Count Them. Billy Joel at 14, Uptown Girl, Moving Gradually Downtown.. Billy Joel at 14, uptown girl moving gradually downtown. At 13, it's thriller,

that's Michael Jackson. At 12, the ubiquitous Tracy Ullman, move over darling. And at number 11, what is love? The unanswerable question. Here's Howard Joe. After taking the piss out of Macca, Peele runs down the charts from number 20 to number 11 and eventually introduces What Is Love by Howard Jones. Born in Southampton in 1955, Howard Jones formed his first band at the age of 16,

a prog act called Warrior. After a stint in a cling film factory in High Wycombe, he ordered a synth in 1979 and was sent to by mistake and decided to use both as a solo act. With his interpretive dancer Jed Hoyle, he spent 1982 providing local support for the blues band and the Flying Pickets in Aylesbury and in March 1983 he landed a Radio 1 session with Kid Jensen. After supporting China Crisis in their UK tour,

he finally signed a deal with WEA in the UK and his debut single New Song got to number 3 in October of this year. This is the follow up and it's up this week from number 14 to number 11 and as we've already mentioned he's just

been announced as the most promising new act of 1984 by Smash Hits. I just want to say one thing about the chart rundown before that. John Peel says, at 17, Barry Manilow, hear him and weep. And I mean, on the face of it, that is a reasonably funny quip, but it's exactly what I'm talking about. It's that kind of wearing sarcasm of him being better than the top yeah

anyway good point where do we start with Howard Jones gentleman let's start with his hair because I never liked that feather cut look Jones and Kershaw

I guess Nick Kershaw and Andy obviously would be emblematic of that and yeah this was the start of me really falling out of love with pop people like Howard Jones it just seemed to really really get bland in 83

Howard Jones is definitive of 83 precisely because of that somewhere along the line electro pop lost it lost its base i think and i don't mean basc i mean ba double s um it just the technology which was obviously you know cutting edge at the time and was advancing at a pace it fell out of the hands of kind of primitives and ne'er-do-wells and it fell into the hands of musicians who were all basically fucking mike oldfield like you know what i mean and you know that that to be honest with you i was racking my brains thinking of that whole electric electronic rather one man band

thing that self-sufficient thing i've never been keen on that from howard jones all the way through to moby i've never been keen on that kind of pop star. I guess he was the future because he's got a microphone he doesn't have to hold, which would have seemed quite futuristic at the time. But so bland, no one was going to get told off by their parents

for listening to Howard Jones, were they? And what I really object to with him, I think, is his lyrics, which were co-written mainly with a guy called Bill Bryant, who I believe now does self-help kind of transcendental meditation tapes and stuff. And you can tell that in the lines. Because New Song angered me, I remember. New Song, which was the hit before this, I think.

You know, lines like, they take the challenge to their hearts. Challenging, preconceived ideas. This is fucking management speak. And I don't like it. I mean, it wasn't really a redeeming feature having Jed on stage. Jed isn't even there for this performance. Yeah, where the fuck is Jed?

No idea. No idea. That's the first thing that sprang to mind. Where is he? He's thrown off his mental chains and done a runner, hasn't he? I mean, he can't be double booked or anything. You know, so I don't know what he's not doing there. And the Jeff Cates Zangief lookalike is staring at Jones like he's going to actually, he's

deciding which body part he's going to eat first. That was the only thing I kind of liked about this. Other than that, yeah, I think you asked the question, where do you stand on the Howard Jones Nick Kershaw divide? Jones, Nick Kershaw divide? I preferred Nick Kershaw just because I really, really disliked Howard Jones. Oh, there's a controversial standpoint there now.

Well, Kershaw was horrible as well. You know, these were essentially no different than prog musicians, really. They weren't weirdos. than prog musicians, really. They weren't weirdos. Looking back, you start thinking when you see Howard Jones on this, that really moments like Culture Club, Do You Really Want To Hurt Me?

Moments like Advent on Top of Parks, they are long gone and we're not going to see their like again for a long, long while. These kind of bland figures dominate. Simon? Yeah, I mean, I think Neil said it all, but I'm just going to say it again

in slightly different words. Good. Yeah, so there he is. Do you notice he's barefoot, by the way? Yes, he's barefoot in a Guantanamo jumpsuit with his cockatoo hair, his orange overalls and his call centre headset, which is like a tech support operator

that plays his own horrible music while you're waiting for him to sort your laptop out. I think probably previously in pop was seen when Kate Bush wore it, during the live performance, which is fine because it's Kate Bush. But there's definitely a feeling that this is where it all went wrong.

In fact, if you read Simon Reynolds' amazing book, Rip It Up and Start Again, which is the history of post-punk 78 to 84, you really get a sense of that, that things have kind of gone from almost in chronological order, Kraftwerk, the Human League, Ultravox, Tubeway Army, and then things like Visage and Soft Cell, all brilliant, and somehow it just tips over in 83 into this and it's absolutely correct to highlight as both of you have that um this is essentially a prog mentality it's not coming from a kind of alternative or a punk mindset at all um and so

he's simultaneously all right and awful. Yeah. There are some, I mean, I've got time for some of his stuff. For example, and this is getting a bit obscure and particular, but there's a song which was eventually a single called No One Is To Blame. Yeah. And there was a version of that on the Richard Skinner session, I think. And it was just Howard Jones

and the piano doing that and it was brilliant and there are a few other tracks slightly later singles like Pearl in the Shell that I thought were alright but this I mean but not this point but a year later I had my own column in the local

paper and I called Howard Jones the SDP manifesto put to synth pop. And it was that sort of determinedly middle-of-the-road thing, even in New Song where it's see both sides and then you've got, you know, like to get to know you well. It's basically an even lamer version of Depeche Mode, people are people, isn't it? I mean, I ought to like this because it's got this kind of anti-love message

and there are other songs in that vein that I really do like, but there's just something really aggravating about Howard Jones. I'll tell you for why, Simon, because this is the synth version of Chris Needham in his bed going, I care for Jane a lot, you can see that. But do I really? Howard Jones has become a moral preacher, which is the last thing in the world he wanted. Chart music would be chart music

without at least one Chris Needham reference. Talking to Chris, let's just cut through this nonsense with a bit of important Chris news. New album coming out soon. Got it on my desk right now. And actually, I'm going to open the letter. You carry on chitting and chatting.

Another reason I didn't trust Howard Jones was that he had his synths set up on this kind of really expensive looking A-frame kind of scaffolding thing. And I just thought, I don't know, if you're a new act, how do you even afford all that gear? You know, who's pulling the strings here? Where's he got all his money from to do this? I don't know. Well, he keeps ordering sims and getting two for one.

Maybe that's where Jed is. He's in the warehouse now just just skanking them and then then there's that there's that bit in the performance and and again it's something that

I ought to like because I do quite like it when people on top of the pops kind of subvert the format but he stops pretending to play the synths

with his fingers and he just sort of walks around the front in front of the synths and starts singing. And yeah, there'd be times, you know, when the Boomtown Rats did that, when the Associates did it

and made it very clear that they're miming. But just, I don't know, there's something so, so aggravating about Howard Jones. And I almost feel guilty, right? Because one of my best mates, Neil, who I mentioned, Neil Sparnon, I mentioned in the previous episode, he was banging to Howard Jones.

He loved him. And I feel like I'm almost having a pop at my best mate for slagging off his hero. And also, I co-organised a tribute night in Cardiff to Steve Strange a year and a half ago. And Howard Jones came along and played it. He wasn't my choice, but he came along and he was great. he went out and did about 20 minutes of the hits and got the audience going i just thought oh he's quite nice really but that's the thing he is nice i mean he always

came over as being just a nice regular bloke in smash hits and stuff like that but you know we don't want nice regular blokes not no not not always. And, you know, we're drawing lines back. We've all said that there's a kind of proggy thing to it. If I was drawing a line forward from this, it wouldn't actually be to electronic music. It would be more to do with the kind of vague, syrupy, hippie spirituality of it. For me, the lyrics of Howard Jones

remind me of the worst kind of songs by the fucking Leveers and back to the planet and people like that there's that whole i'm probably possibly being a bit regionalist here but there's that whole bucolic west country kind of hippiedom to it that i that i really really don't like i probably didn't know that at the time in 83 but it was it was a dead giveaway even at the age of 11 i knew that things were wrong. Things were going bland and things were going, yeah. Like Simon said, the whole thing Simon said about the whole, the big load of equipment that he's got and the way he clambers around it,

that is, in a sense, as much of a kind of prog move. It puts a gap between the audience and the player in not a good way. This is all stuff I only understand you know and whereas when you when you watch i don't know any band from previous i mean when i watched in 79 when i watched people like gary newman playing it didn't feel like that prohibitively it obviously was prohibitively expensive but it didn't feel like synthesizers were somehow just for the rich whereas i think howard jones is kind of peddling that line to a certain extent with his little kind of you know bank he comes off like a trendy teacher uh right down to the haircut yeah in in in the same way that sting was

basically trendy he literally was a trendy teacher that's that's what howard jones comes off like as well yeah but anyway on to important things uh here's is a letter from chris needham with his new lp lightning striking from the moon fucking brilliant 11 tracks out the box are ready to blast you on youtube i hope you enjoy the typical need of mayhem with a couple of left field surprises including a track called just sex and oh my god I've got to hear that check out the rapping from MCC Ned he's rapping

oh fucking hell I'll finish this podcast as soon as possible I want to hear this ow ow I do the hip hop page

for DJ Magazine send me that track I will fucking review it in the pages of DJ Magazine yes without a doubt my god that's an important thing

so two weeks later What Is Love nudged up to number 10 and then leapt up to number 2 held off the top spot by Pipes Of Peace thank you Paul

thank you the follow up Hide And Seek got to number 12 in March of 1984 and his debut LP Human's Lip got to number 1 in March of 1984 and his debut LP Human's Lip got to number one in the same month.

He was finally reunited with Jed in a 20th anniversary gig in 2003. Although Jed had aged somewhat, the beast shuffled in his chains as if he dimly remembered his old handler before being released into the wild. Pausing only to turn round and mime the words,

Thank you, Master Howard. What do you think of the charts off the mark? Hey, I think it's a really great Christmas chart. Gets you right there. At number 10, it's Cliff Richard, Please Don't Fall in Love. At nine, Tina Turner, Let's Stay Together. At eight, Island in the Stream, Kenny Rogers and Dolly Parton. Billy Chaw's at number seven, up one from last week, Tell Her About It. At six, those yummy Thompson twins, Hold Me Now.

Status quo, move up 20 places to number five with Margarita Time. And more Love of the Common People with Paul Young. At number three up one, Culture Club and Victims. At two, it's Slade, My Oh My. And still at number one, our Christmas number one, The Flying Pickets. And here they are with Only You. They are with Only You. A kid asks Peel what he thinks of the Christmas charts and Peel responds that they get him right here

before punching himself in the stomach and then introduces Only You by the Flying Pickets. Formed by members of the 7-84 Theatre Group, which got its name because 7% of the population owned 84% of the wealth. Oh, the good old days. The Flying Pickets were cast members in a 1981 production of the play One Big Blow

about a miners' brass band during the strikes of the early 70s, but as they couldn't find any musicians, they decided to do everything a cappella and decided to keep their hand in and make a bit on the side as a singing group. After funding the release of a live album themselves, they were signed to Virgin Records in 1983, and this is their debut single,

a cover of the Yuzu single, which got to number two the year before. It became the highest new entry in the first week of December and shot straight up to number one, and this is its third week there, the Christmas number one of 1983. Oh, you couldn't get any more right on than this, can you? No, you couldn't. I mean, it's a nice...

I love the song, you see. Yeah. And the fact that they're covering it proves I mean so soon after it come out the year before

proves just what an amazing thing Vince Clark created in writing that song but when I listen to the original because I love to use it

and then listen to this it's in the hands of Alison Moyet she sings this beautiful song with sort of real fragility and an edge of kind of desperation to it it it's emotionally really involving in their hands in the fine pickets hands it becomes more of a sing-along sing together song rather than a kind of song for one person. It's more gentle and lulling. I will

always hugely prefer the original to this. I'm also slightly dubious about its status as the first a cappella number one because, hmm, is it a cappella? No, it's not fully a cappella, no. It's produced to

fuck, isn't it? Some of those harmonies are treated and manipulated in a way that's almost like 10cc I'm not in love or something at certain times and I was also fascinated to find out that

this was one of Thatcher's favourites yes but yeah they've taken like one of my they basically what they're doing is they're singing clark's synth lines and and and you know but then they're turning a song that i think the original the original didn't make um the listener feel happy necessarily or make them feel comfortable they've somehow managed to make the song feel really comfortable and like a sing together thing that's why everyone's swaying and everyone's kind

of you know linked arms on stage they've turned it into a christmas song without having to whack bells on it or anything yeah yeah exactly i think that everything about the performance from the donkey jackets and the linked arms and even their name is a physical representation of solidarity yeah and i quite like that about them i mean they they had all been striking minors or they certainly been involved in protests and during the minor strike of 72 and of 74 and um in the next year they actually picketed Drax Power Station. That's right, yes. And they got in trouble with their record company for that. So I feel warmly towards them for that. Yeah, the two most sort of visually noticeable members are Brian Hibbard,

the main singer guy with his massive sideburns. And he's wearing that t-shirt Today Deptford, Tomorrow the World which I looked it up, I think it's a squeeze t-shirt actually and then there's the bald one who's called Red Stripe who's kind of a Nosferatu looking dude

but the rest of them there's one guy he's got this kind of permed hair with little blonde flecks in it, and he looks like, oh, Michael Ball. That's what he looks like. I mean, are we sure that it's not Michael Ball? Basically, if you can have a girl group or a boy band,

they're a dad band, aren't they? They're totally a dad band. Yeah. And I suppose that in itself was a novelty, and it was sold as a novelty record. And I think that in itself was a novelty, and it was sold as a novelty record, and I think that's how many people viewed it. Part of the novelty, I mean, Neil mentions the fact that they are singing

Vince Clark's synth lines. I think, in a way, that was the joke they were making, wasn't it? Because at that time, synth music was still quite a new thing, and it was still the sort of thing that grown-ups would huff and puff about and say, God, it's not real music, it's just all done on computers so they've gone and then how extreme put them right but yeah but they but they've gone to the opposite extreme and and had

this utterly synthetic record supposedly performed only by human voices and then i i think that that's what why people loved it as much as the sort of christmasy feel to it um by the way apparently we talked about the young ones early on apparently christopher ryan from the young ones had been a member really yeah mike from the flight mike from the young ones had been a fly picket but he quit just before before this so that that would have added a certain he would have featured right edge to seeing him on there yeah he would Mike who I never properly got in the young ones when I watched it at the time but have grown to

love his lines more and more really? sort of I mean he's never going to be up there with Rick obviously but you know he becomes funny the older you get I think yeah I mean I always thought at the time he was too old to be a student but then that's the point isn't it?

yeah yeah yeah not a lot to say about this I mean, I always thought at the time he was too old to be a student, but then that's the point, isn't it? Yeah, yeah. Yeah, not a lot to say about this. It's hard to hate. It does give you kind of warm feelings, I suppose, but I'm always going to prefer the Yazoo version. Yeah. It's number one because it's a fucking, it's a great song. It's a really, really great song.

Anyone covering it possibly would have got up near the top of the charts I don't think Thatcher's allowed to like in the same way that Johnny Mars said that David Cameron's not allowed to like the Smiths I think there should have been a rule that Margaret Thatcher wasn't allowed to like a band called the Flying Pimps Everything you've said about the

record is the reason why it is the Christmas number one you know it's communal it's slow it's all inclusive you know i mean i yeah yeah i don't remember being upset that this was number one at christmas because at at christmas all you need i'm not saying all you need to get christmas number one but a genuine sort of a sense that snow is falling helps. Yeah. Right.

And if you leave the record sparse, that will kind of, that could start happening just because it's, it's near Christmas. Similar thing happened with E17 Stay, which is not a Christmas song in as much as it's about Christmas, but it had that Christmassy vibe. Yeah.

And I think it's the same, it's the same thing carrying this one ahead. And yeah, E17 eventually re-released Stay with Jingle Bells on it, didn't they? Yes, they did, yeah. And it became a hit again. But yeah, the falling snow you mentioned,

they've got that in the studio, haven't they? It's sticking in his sideburns and it looks like he's wearing earrings at one point. Actually, maybe he is wearing earrings, I don't know. And Flying Pickets was a phrase that maybe wasn't that well known

certainly to kids at the time but a year later when the miners strike kicked off and you know of course a lot of people listen to the news

and there'll be all this sort of grave talk about flying pickets turning up at yeah I thought it was the ban and oh yeah all the kids

are sort of giggling you know I really like what Pricey said about this being thought of at the time as a novelty record. I'd completely forgotten that. But yeah, I think you're absolutely right. It was thought of as a novelty record. And, of course, in the 80s, Christmas number ones were a mix between the odd novelty record and the odd direct Christmas song.

So, I mean mean the year before this we've got save your lover and a renato is the christmas number one the year after this we've got band-aid as the 80s goes on we get christmasy songs i think cliff richard has a couple towards the end of the 80s mr tan wine yes he does yeah in the 90s i think what happens is pure novelty so it's all mr blobby all the fucking way. And then what happens recently with Christmas No. 1s is that they, as ever in Index of the Times, they become almost campaigning issues or X Factor No. 1s, you know.

And that's what we've got at the moment. So it's either Military Wives or it's Rage Against the Machine or it's Leona Lewis. It's really, really odd at the moment. Yeah, the last proper Christmas song was Mariah Carey there's been nothing after that I think you're right that's the last one but it's just occurred to me that

the flying pickets on this episode coming straight after Howard Jones they're kind of the anti Howard Jones in so many ways yes they are yes he's there with all this fucking expensive equipment on this big A-frame scaffold and they're just there in donkey jackets with their arms linked just going...

together, you know. And there's something kind of amazing about that. And it's reminded me that at the time, I was briefly affected by this record to the extent that I considered forming an avant-garde a cappella band. Wow. Yeah, I was going to do it.

I was going to form a band that could just turn up anywhere with no equipment and just start laying down some serious political but also musically avant-garde harmonies. Wow. I never quite... I wish I'd done it. Yeah. But yeah, just fleetingly that passed through my mind. And of course, you know, you've got to say,

thank God this was number one instead of My Oh My by Slade. But even worse worse that very week Margarita Time by Status Quo had jumped 20 places to number five can you imagine

that being number one that is a big leap isn't it it is that song's alright though you know I think I didn't like it at the time

but Dexys Dexys did a cover of it and it's maybe just because I'm a massive Dexys fan but I kind of like their version of it. Yeah, but it's status quo, and they've got a bit of synthiness in it and everything.

It's like, no, don't. But those are actually some of my most relished moments of status quo. The cheesiness of our break time, and also, of course, the moment in You're in the Army Now, where Rick Harfick screams, stand up and fight! So, you know, 80s crap quo is actually quite enjoyable. So, three days later

they appeared on the Christmas Day episode atop of the pubs dressed as snowmen and the song stayed at number one for two more weeks before being usurped by Pipes of Peace. The follow-up a cover of the Marvel X 1964 hit When You're Young and in Love, got to number seven in May of 1984,

their last bit of chart action. The band are still going to this day, although they've had no original members since 1990. Isn't that weird? The idea that there's a Flying Pickets going around with none of those guys, isn't it? Yeah, well well you know they all got closed

down didn't they ah yeah but the struggle continues with a new generation yeah and of course the other thing is isn't it nice to see

kind of like resting actors you know doing something constructive with their time that doesn't that doesn't involve male stripping

and yeah you're right to call them resting actors because if you look at what they did after a lot of them ended up going back into acting

I think the bald one moved to Australia oh you never leave it lovey the bald fellow ended up in either Neighbours

or Home and Away Neighbours yeah briefly yeah yeah and the lead singer did the Grand Slam didn't he he was in EastEnders, Coronation Street,

Emmerdale Farm and, because he was Welsh, Poblacombe. Yeah. Always comes back to Poblacombe. Poblacombe. That's your Christmas number one for 1983 The Flying Crickets and Only You Don't forget the Christmas Day Top of the Pop special Sunday afternoon at 2 o'clock

Hey, we've got to get back to Nighttime Radio 1 Have a Merry Christmas And a Happy New Year Goodnight It's all right to be First to fall asleep Prefer preferably under the arm. Bit the nice and careful round your shoulder blade. And stretch.

Stretch. After wishing us a Merry Christmas and Happy New Year and pointing out that they've got to fuck off back to their proper jobs now Kid and Peele introduce Rat Rapping Brilliant isn't it? By Roland Rat Superstar Born under King's Cross

Railway Station, Roland Rat first appeared on television on April 1 of this year and is credited with saving the ailing breakfast TV station TVAM, taking its viewer rating from 100,000 to 1.8 million in a mere two months. This is his first single release in a duet with his number one rap fan, Kevin the Gerbil, and it's up this week from number 28 to number 27.

Now, Neil, you're a bit younger than us. Did Roland Ratt mean anything to you? I fuck it. I loved Roland Ratt. I loved Roland Ratt. I found him hilarious. Yeah. And watched TVAM precisely for Roland Ratt.

In fact, you know, I probably... You didn't watch TVAM for Robert Key or David Frost. I can't say I did or Ann Diamond, no. It was all about Roland Ratt for me. I found him hilarious. I found Green Gilbert funny later on. He was great. But the thing is with this song, unfortunately,

it's pretty awful, isn't it? Oh, it's cat shit. Well, it's rat shit. Never mind cat shit. It's rat shit. No, but Roland and rap i really liked um and actually this single i was probably twatish enough to abort this at the time just because i was majorly into rolling rap but when you look at the other hip-hop singles

that are you know hip-hop is happening somewhere in the world at that time but the rap singles that get in the charts in 83 um yeah really reveal that it's still seen as a bit of a fab and a bit of a novelty, really. And I'll go further than that. It was seen as something that's passed. Yeah, maybe so. Because what have we got? People are feeling that it's gone from being this weird thing from America to being a novelty thing. Yeah, I mean, novelty hip-hop was a real pox around this time, wasn't it?

novelty thing. Yeah, I mean, novelty hip-hop was a real pox around this time, wasn't it? You had like, no, no, no, 90, Not Out. And you had that Chalk Dust thing about... Stutter Rap. Yeah, and that one about... Morris Minor and the Majors. And all of that. Well, I mean, it was just awful.

In January 83, you've got Wham! Rap. That becomes a hit, which I would still count as a kind of almost serious rap tune. But then by March, you've got Kenny Everett's Snot Rap getting in there. October, Rocksteady Crew,

Hey You, that's a proper record. But by November, yeah, Rolling Rat Superstar. From then on, it was kind of seen as a novelty.

At the time, as you were probably aware, Albert, I wasn't. I mean, I had had my mind blown by White Lines and the,

well, Message by then then in 82. Really turned me on to hip-hop in a big way. But seeing the hip-hop that came in the charts, yeah, not a lot that was in any way serious, apart from maybe the rap in Rapture by Blondie. And, of course, the next hit up after Roland Ratt's Superstar Rap would be Mel Brooks' The Hitler Rap, which was a hit in 84. Yes, to be or not to be. So hip-hop really seen by pop as a fad,

a past fad, like you say, and a detail of pop, not a type of music in a sense, something that you can add to an already existing record or something that you can just take a piss out of. Yeah, I mean, I sort of felt that hip-hop had lost its way for for a little while and obviously this was an incredibly superficial view to have on it just you know speaking as a kid who got his records in woolworths and you know got his knowledge from radio one or whatever

just from britain but but yeah the the sort of proper hip-hop records that were breaking through um they themselves seemed a bit novelty-ish you know um yeah i don't know the exact timeline but things like um amityville house on the hill by was that lovebug starsky and then um curtis blow had that christmas tune and stuff like that and yeah uh yeah it just i i i probably did think that maybe uh this is a bit of a novelty fad that will blow over and it's only in the late 80s when death jam really got going that I had my mind changed about it. Yeah, I mean, even something like, you know,

which would be now considered a classic, something like Dougie Fresh The Show or something, which is going to come in about a year's time. It's still kind of mainly not a comedy record as such, but it is, you know, it's not serious. Considering at the same time, you know, I mean, what Run DMC are bringing out, Raising Hell and things like that. So is serious hardcore hip-hop being made or rather

hardcore hip-hop is being created but it's a million miles from the charts and actually to be honest with you it's a million miles away from being played by john peel at this time as well as i recall john peel starts playing hip-hop around about the late 80s and then really rapidly actually falls out of love with hip-hop as soon as it starts saying things that politically he can't really get with. So long as it stays conscious and righteous, he's fine with hip-hop later in the 80s, but then drops it when it, you know, it's in a similar move to the way that reggae fans,

some white rock reggae fans, stop listening to reggae when it turns into dancehall. You know, John Peel did the same thing later on. You had also in July 83, reggae fans stop listening to reggae when it turns into dancehall um you know john peel did did the same thing later on you had also in july 83 i think gary burton gb experienced the crown which was a record produced yes very conscious very conscious produced by stevie wonder i mean you know but there's rap is either comedy or it's sort of a bit ball-achingly righteous, the thrill of hip-hop, and really the thrill of hip-hop, I would suggest,

starts lying in its illiberality, its sexism and its racism and all the rest of it, and its sort of transgressiveness. That's nowhere near the charts. It's still pretty much a joke. With this rolling around superstar thing, what I'm really focused on

watching this episode isn't the record at all because you can barely hear it because you can properly see the audience for what seems like the first time in the whole episode. And your first thought is what a bunch of wankers. Twats in hats.

Twats in hats. And none of them, you know, it's the old debate that we're always having in these chart music podcasts about are they kids or not or are they yeah there's too many zoo type people just being assholes and you don't really get a flavor of kids and the audience that you do see they're all just whooping it up um yeah as you feel they would do to anything earlier on we've got people trying to dance to the freaking flying

pickets and you know and try and get a party going to this and you know i i found that not disappointing as such but i think it's the start of the audience becoming not um reflective of much other than what wankers people become when they're asked to shout and scream yes the pop music yeah but Ratt, let's move back to him because hopefully you or the pop-crazy youngsters out there might be able to help me because I swear, Dan, that I saw an article written about this time with the person who made Roland Ratt. And I told this to people in the pub and everything

and they absolutely refused to believe me. But I read, or at least i think i read uh the bloke who made rolling rats said yeah we did the puppet and everything it was great but we were just having problems with the ears we couldn't get them right and then i decided to make them out of johnnies and i say to people roll did you know that Roland Ratt's ears were made out of johnnies? And they, oh, the shit I get off people. You know, I might as well have said, oh, well, Gary Glitter, he was just, you know, he was just interested. I'm looking at a photo of Roland Ratt right now. They absolutely could be.

They could be rolled up rubber johnnies. Yeah. And I'm actually honest. The kind of, for want of a better word the entry point of the Johnny has been flattened obviously had something done to it but yeah he's got Johnny's for ears

I was totally oblivious maybe that's what people are listening right now really like Howard Jones is saying about us no they are actually Al the quickness of the internet i'm on a forum where somebody is also recalling an interview with the creator yes right where he said that the ears were made of condoms so yes you are correct sir fucking yes well that's it now we don't have to do another

episode of chart music ever again i really did it done It's done. So, I mean, and the song as well. I mean, tee hee hee, they've gone, oh, scratching. That's like what you do when you've got fleas. Oh, for fuck's sake. Yeah, and that's it. And, you know, the idea of scratching, that was a bit funny as well, wasn't it? Because it's not really music, is it?

Well, man, if I was a grown-up then, I would have found Rollum Rat insufferable. Well, I was. I mean, that was a bit funny as well, wasn't it? Because it's not really music, is it? Well, man, if I was a grown-up then, I would have found Rollin' Rat insufferable. Well, I was, I mean, I was 16, so I was too old for this. And also, I was not an ITV person. I just didn't watch it. So, yeah, this totally sort of passed me by. And to the extent that I heard it at all. If Frank Boff had done a fucking single with the Green Goddess,

you'd have been all over it, wouldn't you? Oh, yeah. Even Selina Scott doing a nice Christmassy duet, you know, probably wearing festive jumpers. Yeah.

In terms of Frank Boff's personal habits, he would have been better off doing a hip-hop record. He's more suited to that kind of MC. Oh, fucking Boffsky. But the thing, I mean, Roland Rats,

he's one of those things that gets popular with kids fundamentally because doing an impression of him was a piece of piss anyone could do an impression of Roland Rats yeah

so it was just the Blakey of his age wasn't it yeah yeah yeah yay the following week Rat Rapping

jumped up nine places to number 18 and would get as high as number 14 the follow up a cover of Love Me Tender would get to number 32 and would get as high as number 14 the follow-up a cover of love me tender would get to number 32 his last bit of chart action so what's on telly afterwards well bbc one follows up with wildlife on one from the tanner river in africa the episode of only fools

and horses where dell gets rodney and Grandad to clean a chandelier. A documentary about the crazy gang. Barry Norman reviewing Krull, Brainstorm and Jaws 3D. Fucking out early 80s, what were you like? And finishes with a repeat of the Rockford Files. BBC Two is running a two-hour opera concert, followed by the final part of the documentary series, The Great Palace, The Story of Parliament, carol singing from Crow Moor in Ireland,

and the drama series, The Roads of Exile, about Russo. ITV is running an episode of the American miniseries Hotel, the film Capricorn One, and more carol singing in a show called Gloria. And Channel 4 is screening Bands of Gold, with Tony Campstick and the Dagenham Crusaders in Miami, for some reason, followed by the farming film Accounts and What the Papers Say. Not much Christmassy-ness, is it?

No, but Capricorn won, man. Conspiracy theory classic, that. O.J. Simpson, of course, starring in it. And, yeah yeah basically adding fuel to that whole thing the moon landings didn't happen man it was

all faked yeah yeah yeah I like that film yeah but I mean it's really weird because

you know nowadays with three days before Christmas you wouldn't have Christmas rammed up your arse on the telly at this time wouldn't you

yeah they're keeping the powder dry for Christmas Eve, which is how it should be. I'll tell you what, though, as much as there not be much Christmassy stuff, it also made me think there's not a lot for kids

on that schedule. No, no. So it just made me think how much I would have cherished Top of the Pops at that time as just this kind of brief window into my culture and my life, you know? Yeah. And of course,

the fact that there's another one coming up very soon the crucial thing is as well at that time as a child your excitement about christmas came before anyone else's it came before grown-ups excitement so it wasn't like you were excited about christmas and you put the telly on there was some of christmas stuff you were excited about christmas way before you before grown-ups were. The real excitement absolutely swung in on Christmas Eve, perhaps the day before Christmas Eve. It's not that you weren't allowed to get

excited about Christmas, but Christmas started on the 23rd, as I recall back then. Not on the fucking 10th of bloody November as it is now. So, what are we talking about in the playground tomorrow? I'd probably be talking

about a crap top of the pot sauce last night. And how I hoped, I probably would have hoped that only you would have been Christmas number one because I really like

that song. I might have been talking about perhaps how embarrassing Dennis Waterman and George Carwell. I would have been talking about Flying Pickets, I think. Like, oh, do you see that group?

They haven't even got any instruments. And, you know, just sort of testing the water and see what people thought of that. Oh, for your band. Yeah, yeah, exactly. And maybe also Culture Club, although that would have been old news by now because it's probably already been shown.

Yeah. And what are we buying on Saturday? Well, I can answer that quite easily. I bought Billy Joel, Tell Her About It on 7inch. I wouldn't have bought Victims by Culture Club actually because I already had the album and you have to ration out your pocket money quite carefully in those days. Now I would have bought Victims because I think it's the best record on this episode of Top of the Pops. But at the time,

I probably would have bought Roll and Rap. And what does this episode tell us about late 1983? I think Howard Jones is the bit that says everything in this episode because it was the year that the post-punk wave started to properly run out of steam. And just fashion-wise, it was the start of rah-rah skirts and ankle bracelets for girls

and the year pastel broke for boys. So basically pop became pastel in the year after that, which I kind of didn't like. I think what it tells us is that after that brief, fantastic flare-up between 79 and 82, where pop seemed briefly or occasionally at least to be in the hands of freaks and weirdos and non-musicians to a certain extent,

thinkers and visionaries in a way, rather than people who just pootled around on instruments, pop is now being taken back by the pros if you like given back to musicians um in a way that probably would have been approved of completely by older musicians do you know what i mean so like all the people who were kind of displaced by punk to a certain extent or were threatened by what had happened with the growth of electronic music and what happened punk and post-punk will have felt slightly more comfortable in 83 in that music and the new technology that it was being made on

was being returned to serious musicians with compositional skills, which is exactly analogous to pop getting duller and more boring in terms of what's in the charts. And that, Pop Craze Youngsters, clock on the latest episode of Chart Music. All that remains now is for me to say you can get our website at www.chart-music.co.uk. You can get with us at Facebook,

facebook.com slash chartmusicpodcast. And you can join the conversation on Twitter at chartmusic, T-O-T-P. Oh, and don't sleep on the video playlist that we knock out, which can be found on all those formats. Uh, everything we talk about, all the songs that we've played today, all the random shit we go on about and a few other things as well. You can find it there. If you really want to stick your face into the crotch of December 1983 thank you very much Neil Kulkarny thanks Al, always welcome Neil

always a pleasure, never a burden and thank you very much Simon Price Nadole Chlaouen, Merry Christmas everybody, it's Christmas my name's Al Needham and I have got Johnny's for ears music music music music music We've got Johnnies for ears.

Shut up, music. Hold on, here comes the schism.