Chart Music: the Top Of The Pops Podcast - #60 (Part 2): 7.4.1983 – We Need To Talk About Kevin Rowland

Episode Date: July 12, 2021

Neil Kulkarni and Simon Price gleefully begin to rip into this episode of The Pops with Al Needham, pausing to gaze upon the wonder of Peter Powell’s hessian Bananarama Vest and gasp at how much money Dave Lee Travis used to earn for spending an hour in a club, before bowing to the majesty of Dexys… Video Playlist | Subscribe | Facebook | Twitter | The Chart Music Wiki | Patreon Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

This is the first radio ad you can smell. The new Cinnabon pull-apart only at Wendy's. It's ooey, gooey, and just five bucks for the small coffee all day long. Taxes extra at participating Wendy's until May 5th. Terms and conditions apply. This will certainly have an adult theme and might well contain strong scenes of sex or violence, which could be quite graphic. It may also contain some very explicit language which will frequently mean sexual swear words sharp music Hey up you pop craze youngsters and welcome to part two of episode 60 of Chart Music.

Here I am, Al Needham, your host, with my dear friends Neil Kulkarni and Simon Price. Boys, I'm a bit worried that I built up this episode of Top of the Pops that we're going to start covering in this episode. Because, after all, Top of the Pops has not done anything special to make this happen. Usual deal, Michael Hurls received the charts on Tuesday morning. He's just hammered out a load of bands and artists on a bit of paper he's handed it to his minions and he said sort it but i can't help feeling there's a bit of magic to this episode oh there is which miraculously emerges from you do sense a slightly random

nature in the decision of of you know who's on but every now and then much like in an episode of top of the pops a normal episode of top of the Pops, a normal episode of Top of the Pops, there'll be a lot of got off, but the occasional bit of gold. This is one of those episodes of Top of the Pops that I would have remembered precisely because it's just top quality. Yeah.

So, you know, I would have been thinking about the previous weeks and just how much better this one is. Every now and then, just by accident, I don't think it's a decision making process, it's just by accident, they happen to hit upon the best records in the charts um yeah there's tiny things that could have been better about

this episode there are some amazing records that could have made it but overwhelmingly it's a corker i remember a little while ago you allowed us to choose our own episodes and uh i went for one from 1979 the one with sparks and the specials and stuff like that, which to my mind is the greatest. But it's interesting that 1983, which people do think of as a bit of a fallow year, is the one that's provided you, Al, with, I'm guessing, your favourite so far, certainly the ones we've dealt with, are you saying?

Yeah, it's up there. Not so much for absolutely amazing standout performances, but just the constant punch of of decent tune after decent tune after decent tune and you're just thinking well is there going to be a shit one on this and you know this sort of is a shit one but but even then i mean there's there's just plenty of talking points in this show and yes you know we always say at the end what you're talking about at school the next day i mean spoiler for choice almost this time yeah yeah um and even though you said that it's just like michael hill giving a sheet of paper with some names on it and saying sort it

i do feel like they put a bit of attention to detail in this one i feel like the production values are quite high i mean i'll talk about that as we go along but there are a few things where they've done things they didn't need to do but it really adds to it um there are also things they've done they did need to do which has you fucking screaming at this at the telly um but yeah um it's it's you you can't fault them for actually trying this time yeah it's not autopilot put it that way no oh come on we've teased the pop craze youngsters long enough all right then, then, Pop Craze Youngsters, it is now finally time to go way back to April of 1983. Always remember, we may coat down your favourite band or artist,

but we never forget, they've been on top of the pops more than we have. It's 25 minutes past seven on Thursday, April the 7th, 1983, and Top of the Pops is about to commence its 996th episode. And hey, if you turn those nines upside down, what do you get, Neil? Oh my God, you do, don't you? Yes. Your hosts this evening are Simon Bates, who is still the overlord of the housewives in the mid-morning slot on Radio 1 and is now firmly bedded into the top of the Pops roster,

a talent pool which also consists at the moment of Mike Smith, Tommy Vance, Kid Jensen, John Peel, Gary Davis, Vance, Kid Jensen, John Peel, Gary Davis, Janice Long, Richard Skinner, Pat Sharp and Andy Peebles. Oh, Christ.

Travis, Blackburn and Saville are still making intermittent appearances, but it's being made clear to the Pop Crazy Youngsters that their time is done. But Bates stays, doesn't he, for as long as he possibly can, really. He brings all those housewives to the party, remember, Neil? Yeah, of course, of course.

For a lot of this episode, he seems like a bit of a sort of ghost hanging on the shoulder of his co-presenter. In fact, he does seem like the kind of subordinate role in this episode, which is weird for a guy who's quite senior in the pecking order. Yeah. The other host this evening is peter powell who was nearly three years into his stint on the weekday drive time slot which was vacated by kid jensen when he moved to cnn and temporarily held by paul gambaccini chaps would you care to guess the age difference between these two?

Ten years? Yeah, I'd say around about a decade, yeah. Powell, 32. Bates, 36. Bates is 36? Oh, man. 36. A mere four years age difference. That's me and you pretty much, isn't it, Neil? It is. It is. That's me and you pretty much, isn't it, Neil? It is. It is.

That's crackers. It's a bit like The Graduate, isn't it, with Dustin Hoffman and, you know, Mrs. Robinson, whose name escapes me. Yeah, I mean, one of them's playing young, one of them's playing old, older than they are, aren't they, definitely? Together on screen with Bates

in his usual cream sports jacket and red shirt and pink tie. And Powell with his fawn banana armour vest over a white t-shirt. What is he wearing? With what they're wearing and the way they're acting and the flashing neon in the background. The kind of overall impression you get from this is an opening scene of an episode of The Gentle Touch. Where a maths teacher's nipped out to piccadilly circus of an evening to pick up some trade outside the amusement arcade uh before getting blackmailed by the

underworld to nick them a steady supply of boxes of pencils board rubbers and that black card that you scratch with a compass and it goes all silver these two people don't belong together no you're right to pick up the teacher thing. There's something very teacherly about Powell in particular. He's this odd combination of quite a Eulorian and overly keen chair-straddling teacher who ends up leaving. He's a chair-straddler.

Yeah, he's got the full Joanne Wally scandal poster thing going on in his teaching style, definitely. I mean, that vest he's wearing, what the fuck is he wearing this sort of skanky coarse hessian itchy top looks like it's made out of shredded wheat which he's tucked in you know over a white t-shirt he looks like the party crasher in the hard way he looks oddly hench as well but the thing is with powell although bates as ever manages to sort of mask his craven ambition behind a facade of avuncularity, with Powell you feel always like he's consistently performing a kind of supervisory performance check on himself. After he's done his intro here, you can almost see him momentarily nod himself a 10 out of 10 for his delivery.

He's such a careerist fucker. But at least with Powell, I think, you can buy into the illusion that he's into music. Whereas with Bates, of course, music is just something he's kind of disinterested with. But Powell can't really fake it. When I contrast his kind of enthusiasm, if you like, with the genuine enthusiasm of someone like Janice Long,

it's clearly just, yeah, slapped on, as it were. I love the fact that you've both zoned in on the top that Powell is wearing, because I was fascinated by this as well. Banana armour vest is actually spot on. You've nailed it there. It's this kind of unhemmed thing. It doesn't have sewn hems. It's this sleeveless top, which makes him look like a kind of medieval villager.

It's like a wife beater for monks, isn't it? Yeah, exactly. I mean, I'm no fashionista i'm no jeff banks don't care what anyone says but um it's it's what's the word is it a tabard or a smock or is it a jerkin a jerkin yeah but whatever it is yeah neil says shredded wheat i thought yeah looks like it's made out of oatmeal it's just yes but it's very on trend for 83 it's sort of thing you'd see a lot of the bands wearing and at the age of 32 yeah Powell is definitely aligning himself with the younger generation whereas Simon Bates is very much well I will allow this to happen on my watch but you

know I don't necessarily approve the thing is with this show as in chart music is that when you've been doing it over a period of years you can sort of paint yourself into a bit of a corner right because peter powell right okay stunt kites mogul and all that blah blah um yes who my dad famously called a perv i mean famously if you're a chart music completist i never quite found out why he called him a perv but the thing is when you've done this podcast over a long period of time you end up sort of forgetting what opinions you've expressed about people. And those opinions can shift. And yet, you feel a certain pressure to be consistent in your view on someone.

No, fuck that, Simon. Go with how you feel. Well, I may well have slagged off Peter Powell in the past. I may well have painted myself into a corner by doing so. I don't know. Right now, watching this episode, I don't mind him. I think he's all right you know um yeah yeah absolutely he does seem like he cares about music he very much cares

about you the viewer wanting to know how much he cares about music that he's kind of an insider you get that very much that you know whatever records entering the charts he was clued up on it two months earlier that you know you get that vibe off him and fair enough because given the show that he was doing on radio and that's probably true he probably was into these records or at least aware of these records yeah simon bates as well right i can't and won't retract anything i've said about him previously right you know looking like a math teacher as you said and feeling like the fun police but in in his old age, in his old age, and you know, I follow him on Twitter.

He seems like an all right bloke, you know. Yes. He's got good politics. He's always slagging off Johnson and I don't know. I found out, Simon, the other day.

Do you know what Simon Bates is up to nowadays? What? He's the UK correspondent for CBS News. Yes. What, covering everything? Yes yes i was just flicking on youtube i was looking for some old cbs news stuff and it just came across simon bates talks about brexit or simon bates talks about covid in the uk and it's like fucking up that that's actual simon bates it's not some American bloke who happened to be called Simon Bates.

It was him. Yeah, it's not like the Chris Morris on BBC News, who's not the Chris Morris. It really is Simon. I'm glad you forewarned me of this. And at the beginning, they always say, Simon's views are his own and not necessarily those of CBS News. Shame they don't also add, may contain sexual swear words.

But yeah, Simon Bates, the fucking Ed Murrow of the new century. Who'd have thought? Like he's some kind of wild-eyed radical, yeah. Yeah. I mean, that is, yeah. I mean, it's slightly less mental than it would have been if Peter Powell was the, you know, the UK correspondent. I can't get past what he's wearing. Just can't get past what he's wearing.

Yeah. So there with Powell. He looks like he's sort of like he's got himself togged up to go to a roller disco and then at the last minute it's been changed to an outdoor pagan wedding or something but Bates doesn't let you down does he? Bates is full on Bates in his outfit basically what he looks like

he looks like somebody from now who's dressed up to go to a very cocaine-y um party with a theme yachts rock yes as opposed to a guy in 1983 who's sort of basically dressed like he's out of the rupert holmes pina colada song video this very month both of them were featured in an article in the Belfast Telegraph entitled How the DJs Cash In, which shines a light on how Radio 1 DJs are making money hand over fist away from the BBC. Darlings of 1980s showbiz. Owners of fast cars. The companions of beautiful women. With voices known all over the land. But the disc jockeys behind the microphones of Radio 1 do not get to own a Porsche by working a broadcasting house alone.

Up and down the country. The demand for Mike Reed. Simonon bates david kid jensen dave lee travis and peter powell is big we get 50 calls a day from promoters wanting mike reed said his agent ronnie ball yeah about 49 of them are probably blue tulip putting on voices will you open my washing machine they don't make too much from the bbc opening shops discos and public appearances is where they make the money the mighty mecca has been on the line earlier in search of Mr. Reed, the DJ with the rock star looks who hosts Radio 1's breakfast show. They would pay £1,750. That's over six grand in today's money for him to put in an appearance and they would pay it because they know they would

fill up for the benefit of the pop craze foreigners that's mecca the british club circuit not mecca the holy city they won't ask him might read to play do the huckle book or in the hedge six grand blimey for doing what though on the other hand dave lee travis has been hosting his own road show for the past eight years he doesn't play the records he employs a disc jockey it's a two and a half hour show but dave only does an hour and a half said Mr Ball. DLT leaves his weekday afternoon show on Friday to move to a Saturday morning slot and Radio 1 publicity say that Travis is making the switch so he could concentrate on outside work. That involves competitions, prizes, jokes and generally dlt being dlt christ the price is about 1250 pounds that is 4 314 of your modern day money ladies and gentlemen if this all seems like a lot of money then maybe it is because you do not see them as others do as heroes

mike reed is like a pop star says mr ball women wait for him outside discos he is a superstar of course your super jock can also make money from functions other than discos. Besides the knees-ups, there are beauty contests, TV quiz shows, voice-overs for commercials and Miss Caravan contest appearances. Peter Pal is inundated with requests for appearances. He also lends his name to the sponsorship of H-Close and promotes woodpecker cider. name to the sponsorship of h clothes and promotes woodpecker cider he's a one-man empire in a way says his agent adding that he asks a fair price 800 pounds a night 2760 pound in real money

simon bates is also honest about his earnings and admits to feelings of guilt. The going rate, he said, was £800 to £1,200 per occasion. There's no point in lying, that's just silly, he said. Any Radio 1 DJ who tells you he can't earn a lot of money is lying. Simon is also asked to appear at 40 charity functions a week he is selective but does his utmost for those he helps i still come out of it very well but i try to do charity or unpaid work you have to put something back in life he actually said that. Simon, would you have paid £800 to £1,200 in 1983 money

to have Simon Bates turn up at your wedding? So he could just walk around giving everybody a stern look and say, calm down everybody. Conform. Conform. Yeah, right. It's weird the outrage to it, I guess.

But, you know, it's only this year that the BBC have been forced to kind of publish a list of staff earnings from external events. So, and it's only relatively recently that covers the first three months of 2021. So people like Andrew Marr and Emily Maitlis and all this are now turning up on this register. It's never happened before. No. Apparently to address, you know, issues of impartiality or whatever.

But that would have been an eye-opener if i would have read the belfast telegraph back in back in 83 yeah all of that good bit of investigative journalism that i've got to say yes yeah if i were running the west midland safari park in 1983 i would have seriously considered offering simon bates double his rate to turn up on a bank holiday and toss off some of the animals between playing records and handing out those flimsy cardboard hats. You know, I think my stipulation would be at least one giraffe and two elephants. Start off with something he's vaguely familiar with,

like a wild boar that's close enough to a pig. Or one of those little Vietnamese pot-bellied ones, just to get his eye in. Something for the kids. I think we'd have all liked to have seen DLT just strolling through the lion enclosure. Yes. Potentially with meat strapped to him in some way, but yeah.

It's exactly 7.25, we're live presentation is off the box. Now all the bands in here, though some of them may be miming tonight. But we start off, for25, welcome to Studio 3 for a live presentation of Top of the Box. Now, all the bands in here, though some of them may be mining tonight. But we start off, for starters, right? We give you the Celtic Soul Brothers. This is Dexis! We barely have time to let the clatter of yellow pearl die down and pick the shards of pink vinyl out of our faces

before we are immediately assailed by a time check from Bates, a radio man to the last, who tells us what the time is in order to show off that once again this episode is going out live. But he then says, now all the bands are here, though some of them may be miming tonight. What the fuck is that all about?

He suddenly turned into Whispering Bob Harris or something. Like, you know, is he trying to sort of say, oh, this show, Top of the Pops, is not very authentic, you know? I mean, fucking no shit, Sherlock, you know what I mean? You've been there long enough. We get it. We get the idea. We understand. We understand the basic conceit of Top of the Pops. you know i mean fucking no shit sherlock you know what i mean you've been there long enough we get it we get the idea we understand we understand the basic conceit of top of the pops we're not stupid i've got to say by the way that that intro with the flying colored vinyl and the yellow pearl

we've talked about it millions of times but it just feels nice it feels like coming home to me i know that the old ccs whole lot of love is probably the more iconic intro to top of the pops but for me you know that is really my kind of my heart and my home is is the yellow pearl and the colored vinyl and um it reminded me there was this um for a while you could get bubble gum in the shape of vinyl records do you remember this yes yeah yeah yeah and uh so like pink so obviously disc-shaped bubble gum and it would have like maybe a picture of a pop star in the middle but by the time you got it it was really brittle and really dry so you opened it and it would crack and it would look like

the start of your face yeah yeah so i so watching this i could almost in a proustian rush almost taste that very cheap bubble gum and yeah it's, it's just lovely, the Yellow Pearl intro. You can't beat it for me. What does Phil Linnett use to put his posters up? Go on. Attack! Attack! Attack! Attack! Sorry. It is strange that Bates warning about...

Because it doesn't sound like an in-joke or anything to me. His thing about, you know, some of the acts will be miming. It sounds like it's a kind of reaction. I don't know if they had viewer complaints or something. Well, for a start off, are any of the bands playing live tonight? Not that I could. No, none of them are. And I think Bates, that little smile he gives at the end,

I believe that he's taking the piss there. Because bear in mind, chaps, this is the week after New Order appeared on Top of the Pops to perform Blue Monday live. And they made such a dog's arse of it that it caused Ian Curtis to rise from the grave just so he could hang himself again

out of embarrassment. Oh, brilliant. That must be it. Well done on figuring that out. Yeah, that's got to be the reason, hasn't it? That clip is mortifying. That must be it. Well done on figuring that out. Yeah, that's got to be the reason, hasn't it? That clip is mortifying. Yes, it is. There was another recent incident involving miming that's going to come up later on,

so we'll leave it till then. Okay. Powell, ridiculously over-enthusiastic as ever, cuts in to commune with the youth in a no-nonsense manner and says, but we start off as starters, right? Yeah, it's very Rick from the Young Ones, right kids? With the Celtic Soul Brothers by Dexys Midnight Runners. Formed from the ashes of the punk band The Killjoys in Birmingham in 1978,

Dexys Midnight Run runners started gigging around benny town at the end of the year and almost immediately picked up bernie rhodes as their manager who booked them into a studio to record their debut single dan stance for his own label oddball records after landing a support slot on a specials tour in 1979, they adopted their on-the-waterfront look of donkey jackets and woolly hats, building up a following outside of ATV land, and when Dance Dance was released as part of a distribution deal with EMI, it got to number 40 in January of 1980. 1980. After binning off roads and signing with the MI, their second single, Gino, made it all the way to number one for two weeks in May of that year, and followed up with the LP Searching for the Young Soul Rebels, which got to number six in July, and There There My Dear, which got to number seven in August. However, all was not well in the Dex's camp. While Kevin Rowland was responding to slag-offs in the music papers by refusing to do interviews and taking out advertising

space to state that they refused to have anything to do with the dishonest hippie press, their last single of 1980, Keep It Part 2, Inferiority Part 1, failed to chart, leading to five members walking out. And while their next single, Plan B, was struggling to get to number 58 in March of 1981,

they were making moves to get out of their deal with EMI. After signing to Mercury Records and righting the ship with Show Me, which got to number 16 in August of 1981, they finished the year with another flop single, Liars A to E, and the group casting about for a new direction. After hearing the demos of former band member Al Archer's new band, the Blue Ox Babes, Rowland was taken by the Irish fiddle stylings of violinist Helen Bevington,

leading him to invite her to join the remodelled Dexys, getting her to change her name to Helen O'Hara, and pointing the band's new sound towards both the fiddler and the diddler. This was the first single release from Dexys Mark II, which only got to number 45 when it was put out in the spring of 1982. Luckily, they had another single in their pocket, Come On Eileen, which got to number one in August of 1982. In the wake of the LP To Raya getting to number two for four weeks in August of 1982, and the singles Jackie Wilson said getting to number five in October of that year and let's

get this straight from the start getting to number 70 for two weeks at the end of December and the band preparing to tour America in the wake of come on Eileen hammering on the door of the Billboard top 10 this week this single was given a dusting off and was put out again last month it entered the charts last week at number 36 and this week it soared 12 places to number 24 and here in the studio are the raggle taggle gypsies of pop and oh we're off to a flyer aren't we chaps most definitely there were certain bands where sort of knowledge of them and fondness for them is almost kind of prerequisites of being a music journalist to a certain extent at the era in which i was engaged with music journalism i'd say those bands were threefold they were new order pet shop boys both of whom i'm not that fond of and dexys but luckily i was always in the dexes

from the first moment that i heard Geno as a really little kid. It's a record that just keeps doing you in all your life, that. And I love Dexys. I'm so delighted to see them on Chart Music. I think they've always remained meaningful to me. In fact, increasingly meaningful to me over the years. Because ultimately, they ask the most important questions there are, I think, about being a British musician. The thing is with Dexys, they make decisions before even playing a note. I love bands where rather than that kind of musician speak of, you know,

oh, it all came together organically and if anyone else likes it, it's a bonus. Dexys are one of those bands where you always feel things that are a deliberate decision that they've thought about. Because they're not really a soul band, they're an art band. Really, they're a manifesto-type band, which is what, to me, as a young kid, was what was so exciting about them. And they answer the most important questions. How do you worship an American past without aping it? How do you celebrate a British past that's complicated

through the inevitable traces of immigration in your own past and that history not just a pride and resistance and dissidence but the horrors done in your nation's name potentially against your own native land and how do you use the past to make a future or at least something that isn't just nostalgia and and crucially given how every single expression of soulfulness in the uk is kind of threaded with these problematic postmodern thievings of identity and culture, how do you do it all without being a cunt? I love Dex's answer to it. Because where the Stones, say, used rock and roll, to be honest,

Dex has realised that rock and roll, after 20 years of explosion and decay and entropy, and being in a band and doing the band thing, just isn't going to cut it if you want to keep your intellect and your soul intact. So it's in fact in their rejection of rock and roll that Dexys start realising a way of being in a band with dignity.

Dignity is really important when thinking about Dexys. So they loathe contemporary pop because they consider it undignified, but they make really addictive pop music. And it's the fact that when you dig into dex's history you realize they didn't show themselves until they'd rehearsed for a year you know until they have a look until they feel like an army so all those stories of the exercise routines the straight edginess the lack of booze and drugs all of that is just really

thrilling and exciting because it's not just something that falls together. Dex's are always a kind of plan and a project. And you feel that if they were a London or Manchester band, probably some artsy-fartsy journalist would have got into help with the conceptualisation. But this is basically a load of nutters from Birmingham. And the only visionaries are the people in the band. I loved Searching for the Young Soul Rebels. Don't get me wrong,

Tell Me When My Light Turns Green is probably my fave Dex's song but To Rye A I think is actually a better album for it's second side To Rye A

it was my tarting up record for the longest longest time and the reason it was my tarting up record is because even though

I was slapping on the black lippy and the eyeliner and the nail varnish I was in that strangely adolescent mix of kind of that catholic mod flagellant need for purity that kind of you know that that for rising above it's it's don't i should probably stop because i've got loads to say about dex's and i

may well be be be rambling but that mod speed fueled need for purity for rising above sex animated bands as diverse as the jam and the specials in this era but i would argue that dex is going to take it to the ultimate extreme and and when you're a teenager lines like you know i'm going to punish my body until i believe in my soul this is appealing it's a way of it's a way of justifying the fact that you're desperately unattractive and not appealing to anyone it's a way of making a virtue and a righteous sanctuary out of your total lack of confidence it's very appealing to a boy full of hate and full of anger and full of rage what dexes do is they take all that mod sexlessness and they amplify its kind of celibate sternness they write songs that look like love songs but they're not really about love what's being yearned

for in all their songs is what's been lost, things like passion and community and connection. And that's a really resonant thing in the early 80s. What they remind me of the most, in a weird way, is Public Enemy. I'm not saying remotely that they're kind of sonically, but there's something Public Enemy-ish about Dex's. You know, i was really fascinated when reading simon reynolds rip it up to read the quote from mark cordray in the enemy because

they did have the haters um who critiqued dexes as a kind of elite of pure and dedicated men and he called it emotional fascism and said their music was a perversion of soul that had no tenderness and no sex and their laughter there is something not joyless but stern about dex's kind of po-face that can stray close to parody you know the fact the fan club's called intense emotions limited and that's the talk called the projected passion view but you know if in pop you're going to do something like what dex's or public enemy do you do have to go all the way with it without smirks. And by the time we see them here, they have undergone their third transformation, really.

So after the Mean Streets kind of look of the early years and the sportswear look, this is the period where they've got the Emerald Express fiddlers in. They've got this odd look of kind of poets and navvies and troubadours. They've done a love song by now, Come On Eileen. Not exactly a straight love song, but a love song about a person at least, had their biggest hit with it. I love this song, because like all Dex's songs,

it's not about anything that a normal pop song's about. Pop songs are about feelings, and romantic feelings, and loving feelings. Dex's songs are more about, how do I get myself to the point, where I'm even capable of love? How do I get to something that isn't horrible,

or that makes life worth living? They're on this very existential tightrope, always, myself to the point where i'm even capable of love how do i get to something that isn't horrible or that makes life worth living they're on this very existential tightrope always with their with their music and of course eventually the success of these singles and the album would end up torturing roland but here in this performance i just think we have top-notch dexes at the peak of their powers kevin has never looked better on top of the pops i don't think the the way he looks that the way he looks now and their togetherness their physical and musical togetherness even though they're miming is just really tangible what an amazing start to the show yes simon it seems weird that this was the first release from to rye when they were sitting on come on eileen and

and even more weird that it failed to chart on the first go around what the fuck is wrong with people but this makes sense as the first single of the new look Dex is it's a statement of intent isn't it here we are this is what we're up to nowadays don't give a fuck if you like our new direction or not this is what we're doing get used to it

it does make sense in a lot of ways that this single both tops and tails the Celtic soul era for Dexys. It is, of course, remarkable that we haven't talked about Dexys before on Chart Music. No, it's insane. It's long overdue. And I'm going to say before anyone else does, we need to talk about Kevin. So Neil has, I mean, I think we're almost telepathic on the same wavelength where Dexy's concerned.

He said a lot of the things that really rang true to me. In fact, he even used some of the words and phrases that I was going to use. But that's not going to stop me. I'm just going to say anyway. It is a struggle to find the right words to express what Dexy's mean to me. So instead, right, to begin with, let me tell you about the view from my bedroom window in 1983. And if anyone thinks this is boring, listen to this, right? There's the door.

Don't let it hit you in the arse on the way out, right? Because I do have a point. So out of my bedroom window, 1983, across seven rows of terraced rooftops, right, the first thing I could see was Barry Docks, which was built 100 years earlier. By 1913, Barry Docks was the busiest coal port in the world. But by the time I was alive, a lot of it was derelict,

and the main trade was importing bananas. These big white geese ships would come in, and I'd see them come in, and there were always stories of tarantulas sneaking in with the bananas. In fact, there was supposedly a crumbling brick wall in the docks which had become infested with tarantulas. Although the only infestation I ever saw down there was wild rabbits

living among the scrap heaps, which seemed really evocative. Slightly to the right of the docks, you had Woodham's Yards, which was this steam locomotive graveyard, famous, in fact, where the rusting hulks of dozens of Great Western Railway engines were just left there to rot. And it's where my parents took me for an arty black and white photo shoot when I was a toddler. And it's where the glue-sniffing skinheads I mentioned earlier on were lurking by this point. And beyond that, you'd see Barry Island. And in the houses of Barry Island, and this tells you how much I was just sat there staring

I saw the shapes of dogs there was one that looked like a crouching Pekingese and there was another house that looked like a Scotty and my dad came to visit once and I pointed out the window and I showed him

the dog shaped houses over on Barry Island and he said he could see them too, though I do wonder if he was just sort of humouring me while worrying about me slightly, right? And to the right of those houses were the green rooftops of Butlins, where a year later I'd be selling seafood, treacherous stuff and all of that.

And then next to that was the fairground, the Barry Island Pleasure Park. And by this time the star attraction there was a pirate ship that span upside down um imported from germany called traum boot um and uh legend had it that if you vomited downwards just past the apex of the turn it would splatter everyone in front of you but also yourself because you would come around by the time your vomit had reached the bottom of it and then beyond that was the sea um the islands of flat home and steep home and the smugglers haunts of sully island uh it was a tidal island you could

walk to which was probably not frequented by captain henry morgan but we all believed it was because it did have a piratical past and And over on the other side, exotic England, where on a sunny day, you'd see the flash of car rooftops on the Mendips and the Quantocks. And at night time, you'd see the twinkling lights of Western Supermare over there. And then 20 miles away, these two ominous giant cubes, which was the Magnox nuclear reactors at Hinkley Point, A.

And if one of those went up, we all went up. The reason I can remember that vista in such detail is that I spent so much time staring out of my bedroom window. I was lonely. It feels like I'm exaggerating a little bit saying that because I had one or two friends nearby. Andrew with the air rifle, who I mentioned. Screwy and Pete with the petrol bombs, who I mentioned.

And I sort of had mates at school, but I was an only child. I had stepbrothers who I'd see on Sunday with my dad and stepmum, and they were great. But for most of the week, six days a week, it was just me and my mum. I was lonely. So I sat in my room, staring out of the window, and what I listened to more than anything else was Dexys Midnight Runners. And that's why the view from that window

and the sound of this album, To Rye, are inextricably connected for me more than any connection I can think of between a sort of time and a place and the music. That's the one that's the most unbreakable for me, Dexys and that view. And also their first album,

Searching for Young Soul Rebels which by this point I picked up on a cheapo re-release on the Fame label and the dodgy EMI cash-in compilation called Gino which had all the all the b-sides and stuff and all the standalone singles just Dexys are the sound of my loneliness I shouldn't say loneliest, I should say aloneness, because loneliness has negative connotations. But Dexys made isolation from the common herd feel more like an imperative. They instilled in you this sense of inner strength, of self-reliance, self-discipline, and the conviction that even if the entire fucking world doesn't agree with you, it doesn't mean you're wrong. And they played the role in my life that the Smiths would take over the following year.

Not just that it's okay to be alone. It's more than okay. It's the noble and honourable path. It's what Richie Edwards was getting at in Yes by the Mannix when he wrote Solitude, Solitude, the 11th Commandment. But there was still this faint yearning. Neil mentioned this sense of community that they were mourning the loss of. There was this yearning of wanting to find someone else who gets it. In the song I Couldn't Help It If I Tried on the first album, Kevin sings, but if there is someone point me at someone show me someone who feels like I see and to this day I don't know if Neil finds this but I always find

this if you meet someone who gets Dexys you've got a friend for life yeah yeah right because I like the fact that everyone gets them wrong right I like the fact that to basics and norms they're just the come on eileen band right americans only know them for come on eileen there's that bit that famous bit in the simpsons where homer's barbershop quartet the b sharps are pipped to their grammy award for baby on board by dexes with come on eileen and homer says this little aside it's a one-liner says something like oh well that's definitely not the last we've heard of those guys. You know, the joke being that for Americans,

it was the last they'd heard of those guys. And Brits are much better. 97% of them just know that song, plus Gino and maybe Jackie Wilson said, right? But fuck the 97%. If you meet someone at a party, if I meet someone who's a Dexys fan, that's the whole night gone, right?

You're in a corner, the two of you, talking about nothing else, just delighted to have found a fellow disciple, even though Kevin railed against the whole idea of disciples on the song Liars A2E, of course. But there aren't many bands like that for me. Sparks are the other one, that if I meet someone, that's it, the night's gone,

you're talking about nothing else. Maybe sometimes Prince, depending what kind of prince fan they are yeah i mean i've got loads more but maybe i should just take a breath and let somebody else say something but that goes some way to telling you what dex is meant to me well i was watching this with a mate and there's an age difference between us of about 10 12 years or something like that. And the minute this came on, I was Hadley fisting it, big style. And she said, oh, fucking hell, I hate Dexes. And I just looked around and said, what the fuck are you going on about? This is fucking skill.

And she just said, oh, you've never worked in wedding hospitality then, have you? And stood there dreading the clock striking 10 again and, come on fucking Eileen, coming on again. But that's a fucking tune it is it is yeah you've got to make your peace with it i think kevin's made his peace with it because they do play it live i say you know in the present tense it's been a long time since they did

a gig but they they started playing it live again and they've made their peace with it and they understand that people want to hear it it's a great song but yeah we will talk about that another time i'm sure let's talk about this song because this is fucking mint i love this oh yeah i don't think it's their strongest i don't think it's the best but it's a really rousing introduction a to the album and b to this whole phase of dex's career and i've got to admit it took me a little bit by surprise i didn't buy it first time out and i know i didn't because the first version that came out is a hard laminated cardboard sleeve and the one I had was a flimsy paper one with a corner snipped which meant I got it for from the paper shop in it yeah yeah I wasn't on board with the Celtic soul direction at first the weird thing is this isn't a million miles away from bands like the Chieftains and

Steel Eye Span which my dad had forced me to watch at the Cambridge Folk Festival two years before this. And I hated it at the time. But Kevin had the power to drag me, kicking and screaming towards Celtic folk and Celtic soul. He had that charisma about him. And it's like Neil said, it was a decision. It's like, I don't care what the rest of pop is doing. I'm going to drag my band and you towards this.

And he even did it to his own band. He made the trombonist, the big Jimmy Patterson, Jimmy, retrain as a fiddle player for being trombonist. And yeah, it's a rousing statement of intent in the context of the album. But it's also a demand for radical politeness. More please and thank you. What a great sentiment to write a song about. This wasn't the track that snagged me into 2AA.

I think that was probably the cover of Jackie Wilson said, which is kind of irresistible. And talking of Jackie Wilson said, I get a feeling that Jackie Wilson said was on the menu first for Dexys and they've lifted from here because if you played the beginning of both tunes on a Morse code thing same rhythm yeah yeah no good good nick kevin but the thing is i mean yeah it's weird talking about the singles because one of the words that simon said you know i mean a lot of the words

we've been using i think discipline is is so so important and and you know that's what's odd about dex is coming out of this post punk era in a way but whereas post punk would suggest that you know it's all about being innovative and and forging this future in a sense by challenging the listener dex is just love pop too much and they know that pop is the discipline that excises indulgence and celebrates the things that are important this is a fucking fantastic single and i loved common eileen and i've never really had a problem with common eileen but the moment for me in this period of dex's that mattered the most is probably a song that you know people who who only know the singles wouldn't they something like old like Old on the B side of 2AA, I think.

It's like Pearl's Cafe, actually, on More Specials. It's one of those songs that, you know, as a young person, you're taught loads of shit stuff by rock and roll. Be rude, you know, be rock and roll and all of this. And that politeness, that respect for your elders, and not your elders and betters not a deference but just a compassion that's a revelatory thing to be given a young age and you know that to me what is what remains in my heart about dex is to this day they know that compassion isn't pity they know the difference and

and that's what i know i'm talking about them in a vague sense but remember when i was talking about the Stones and I was saying they're sort of in my heart? Dex isn't one of those bands at all, I think. Let's talk about the downside of this performance, shall we? Oh, is there a downside? Zoo. Oh, fucking hell.

As is the style of the early 80s, zoo or in full defect. Trying to summon up a Kaylee vibe, but ending up like a country dance class for an infant school full of giants yeah i want to say country dance so you know where the emphasis is firmly on yes alan partridge's new year's eve millennium barn dance isn't it must must not repeat not turn into an all-night rave they do a bit of um twirling around and then they give up on that and they end up doing that slow motion mod dance where you kick your legs about they did it before when foster and alan turned up and fucking hell wait till we get to that performance jesus there were a problem throughout this episode yes yeah it gets worse actually it does get worse

far worse you know they're not pop people what What can I say? They're light entertainment people. They're choreographed redcoats, ultimately. And I don't really think that Flick Holby's heart was in Zoo, to be honest with you. And whenever we see Zoo in this episode, though they're massively annoying, we should remember that, you know, this is one of their kind of last outings, in a sense. By September, they're gone. To be replaced by cheerleaders, as they are called. Yes. Which you see a bit of in the background here. And replaced by cheerleaders, as they are called. Yes.

Which you see a bit of in the background here. And then the cheerleaders go by 86. It's already seeming a little bit dated to have a dance troupe on Top of the Pops. But Zoo are really not doing any kind of favours to that idea of having a dance troupe. They're appalling throughout this episode. The one thing I'll say is I hardly noticed them during this performance. Because I just couldn't take my eyes off Dexys. Yeah, me too.

Other performances, Zoo do annoy me. But in this Dexys one, I am just focused on them, really. And it's actually interesting picking up the signs from Dexys clothing in this because they are already moving on from the dungarees phase. Kevin and Billy look like they have bar towels hanging from their waists. I don't know what that's all about

By the way, Billy Adams is now an IT consultant Just seems like a lovely bloke on Twitter Go and give him a follow I think he's Kevin Adams' real name But yeah, just let me state for the record I never wore dungarees and daps I didn't go for that I was one look behind with Dexys

I bought a woolly hat from Army Surplus and copied their 1980 look instead. And I definitely didn't go for their preppy, Ivy League, Wall Street look in 1985. I wondered what the hell they were doing at that time. Although I do, I get it now, but I didn't get it then. Did you try and grow a tash? I think, even by the age of about 20 um i could go three or four days without needing to

shave so no anything else to say about this loads loads there's this mad seven minute song on the album called until i believe in my soul in which kevin roland at one point goes i'll punish the body to believe in the soul. I will punish my body until I believe in my soul. Now, I don't believe in my soul. I'm not a dualist. I don't believe in the second substance of soul or spirit, right? But the closest I get to accepting the idea of a soul is when I listen to Dexys.

Because what Dexys do to me, what they mean to me, is something that it fucking vibrates within me. It's seeped into my skeleton and my viscera. It's right in there. And I've already said that at this age, I was a fizzing human bomb. I was just full of all this pent-up emotion and pent-up sexuality and anger with no outlet or target for any of those things. You've got all this angst and neil's already used the word weltschmerz um and bratwurst and kartoffelsalat and other german concepts it's it's a it's it's a

very german time when you're 15 i think um but yeah i i had um a strong puritanical street yeah yeah and obviously obviously dexys were the band for me. Neil's already mentioned they had a tour called the Projected Passion Review and, yeah, the Intense Emotions Limited fan club. I went to the aforementioned Cardiff St. David's Hall to see them on the bridge tour. That was my first gig, my first indoor gig anyway. And it's an overused hackneyed old cliche, but it was almost a religious experience for me. I went alone. Nobody else was was almost a religious experience for me.

I went alone. Nobody else was a fan enough to come with me. And I sat on my own at the front of the balcony, just soaking up every second of it and just wanting Kevin to impart whatever he could through not just the lyrics, but just any glance, any movement, any look. It was, you know, there was... And he hated this as i say the song

lies a to e he didn't want that but nevertheless he was so charismatic and so messianic that almost despite himself he did make people follow him in that kind of cult-like way and to this day if you go on on the dexys um sort of fan facebook group that's the spirit of it. It really is. It's just absolute devotion. I said earlier on that you meet a Dexys fan, you've got a friend for life. Have I told a story about what happened with one of my Melody Maker colleagues? I think we have.

We have. Oh, I cut that bit. All right. Well, no, hang on. You weren't involved in that conversation. So there was this time at the Reading Festival in the 90s um the Melody Maker crew were all back in the bar of the Ramada at the end of the day and um yeah this has already been talked about by other people on chart music but as it was me I'm going to own this story and um I was I was talking about Dexys as I so often

do and Everett True who was kind of very much my superior within Melody Maker I think he's the assistant editor at the time just starts flailing at my upper arm with these pathetic little punches like these pathetic sort of the punches that an eight-year-old might give you but flailing away going you have no right you have no right you've got no right to talk about Dexys you don't understand Dexys like that and I just sort of sat there sort of like quite amused looking at him like what the fuck do you think you're doing

how did it start it's just that he thought Dexys were his band and I somehow didn't deserve them I would hope from you know everything I've said already on this episode you at least believe me that I was into it. I was there.

I was a fucking fan, right? I'm not faking it. I'm not faking it to be cool. I'm not faking it to earn my music journalist stripes. You know, it was true. It was real. He eventually ran out of steam and just sort of sat there kind of sobbing or something. Ted Maiko, who was our former features editor,

who'd come back and was just hanging around with us in the bar said to Alan Jones our editor Jonesy if that was me doing

that you'd have punched me out and Jonesy said yeah but I like Everett that's a moment that always comes back to me that

Dexys fans and I guess bless ET for having such strong emotions about it are so committed and so sold on the whole thing of Dexys fans, and I guess bless ET for having such strong emotions about it, are so committed and so sold on the whole thing of Dexys that they do think that they belong to them and only them. And it can drive people to behave in sometimes slightly embarrassing ways.

So the following week, the Celtic Soul Brothers jumped four places to number 20, its highest position. Unbeknownst to the pop craze youngsters, this is the last appearance on Top of the Pops by Dexys Mark II, as two weeks later, Come On Eileen ended the seven-week reign of Billie Jean at number one in America, and they spent much of the rest of the year over there, by which time they'd slimmed down to a three-piece and spent two years putting together their next LP, Don't Stand Me Down, with the intention of releasing no singles from it.

But Roland eventually relented, and the follow-up to this, This Is What She's Like, only got to number 78 in November of 1985. But thanks to the success of the sitcom Brushstrokes, the theme tune Because of You got to number 13 in the last week of 86, their last hit single before they split up in early 1987. By the way, this is what she's like, full-length version,

absolute fucking masterpiece. 87. By the way, this is what she's like, full length version. Absolute fucking masterpiece. If anyone doesn't get what we're wanging on about, about how great and how unique Dexys were, just listen to This Is What She's Like, and if you don't get it, you'll never get it, but if you do, then thank me later.

How do you do? and just five bucks for the small coffee all day long. Taxes extra at participating Wendy's until May 5th. Terms and conditions apply. Hello, I'm Justin. And I'm Lucy. And together we are the hosts of Plenty Questions. It's a very straightforward general knowledge quiz. We ask you 20 questions, one after the other, five second gap in between, and you shout the answers out.

And then you tweet us to let us know how you got on. See if you can get 20 out of 20. No-one has so far, but that's because we haven't started doing it yet. But we will. And there's also going to be some fiendish brain teasers, so join us for Plenty Questions. Dex has been my runner.

It's a very special round on Top of the Pops tonight because we're joined by a lot of the people from fame. Are they shooting another series, Leroy? Yes, we will be doing another one. Great. Here's Culture Club and Church of the Boys of Mine. We whip back to a powerless bait, accompanied by none other than Gene Anthony Ray, better known as Leroy, from the Kids From Fame. Born in the head of talent manager David De Silva and playwright Christopher Gore in 1976 and passed on to the director Alan Parker in 1978,

in 1976 and passed on to the director Alan Parker in 1978, Fame was a film about the lives of students at the High School of Performing Arts in New York, which was released in May of 1980, made $42 million worldwide and won two Oscars for Best Original Song and Best Original Score. song and best original score. In January of 1982, NBC broadcast the first episode of the TV show of the same name, which was immediately picked up by the BBC and was first broadcast in June of that year, directly and cunningly right after Top of the Pops. Not only was it an instant smash, pulling in 10.25 million viewers by the end of the first series, 400,000 more than the second-rated BBC One show of the night, Top of the Pops, but it encouraged RSO to re-release Irene Cora's version of the film theme, which soared into the charts at number four in early July and spent three weeks

at number one, sniffing the chance to turn a pound on the side. Songs from the first series of the TV show were snapped up by BBC Records, and mere weeks into the run of the first series, the leotard-crazed youngsters were encouraged to buy the LP, The Kids From Fame. And in August, it began an eight-week run at number one in the LP chart, being bumped down to number two for four weeks while Love Over Gold had a go at number one, and then spending four more weeks at the top, while RCA realised the mistake they made leasing Kids From Fame tunes to the BBC and had rushed out the Kids From Fame again,

which was at number two during the second run of the original LP at number one. Meanwhile, in the singles charts, the Kids took High Fidelity to number five in September of 1982 and Star Maker to number three for two weeks the month after that. Although their third release, Mannequin, only got to number 50 in December of 1982, Famer Mania was reaching a crescendo at the end of the year. After three gigs in the Brighton Centre, the Royal Albert Hall and the NEC at the end of the year. After three gigs in the Brighton Centre, the Royal Albert Hall and the NEC

at the end of December of 1982, they came back full scale this week to commence a 21-date tour, starting at the Blackpool Opera House, then two nights at the Manchester Apollo, and the night before this episode, the Edinburgh Playhouse. Tomorrow they start two nights at the Royal Centre in Nottingham,

and no, that wasn't my first gig, and then take in Wembley Arena for two nights, then the Brighton Centre, the NEC, the Coliseum at St Austell, and they finish off at the Gaumont in Southampton before nipping over to the Netherlands. Gaumont in Southampton before nipping over to the Netherlands. Naturally this has caused the BBC to push the boat out in a splurge on one group not seen since they gave an entire week over to the Osmonds in 1974. Not only have they screened concert footage from their first tour last Saturday and Bank Holiday Monday but Russell Harty has given over an entire episode

of his BBC Two chat show over to the kids while they were doing their dress rehearsal in Blackpool. But all is not well in the fame camp. The tabloids are gleefully reporting that the second series is already dropping like a stone in the american ratings rumors are abounding that the show's about to be axed and hillary kingsley the daily mirrors tv reviewer has plunged in the first knife in an article entitled fame's noisy show-offs can fame have lost its appeal with american viewers because the stars made too many chat show appearances there. The good thing about the series was seeing all the different sorts of struggle. But on the Russell Harty show on Tuesday, the stars turned out to be noisy show-offs and all their talents boiled down to a couple of mediocre yuck.

couple of mediocre yuck anyway here's gene anthony ray who actually went to the proper academy but only lasted a year because he wasn't up for all the discipline he was cast as leroy in the film version and reportedly used to bring his mom along to the film in so she could sell all the rest of the cast all the drugs they fancied he was kept on for the TV version and has become one of its most prominent stars. Chaps, I think I've taken the long way round to saying that fame was fucking massive in 1982-3. It was enormous. And interestingly, Gene Anthony Ray, who appears here, he's also interviewed by The Face magazine in 1983

for a piece called So so who wants to live forever where face i mean you know apprehending the kind of massive success of the tv series basically interview people who actually attended the real high school and his quotes in that interview are quite interesting because he says about the real high school you know he says and i quote directly here to me they try to brainwash the kids in that school that's why i left um they tried to brainwash us with the the idea that everything is beautiful war is beautiful death is beautiful everything is beautiful and i believe in a way yeah but some things are bad some shit do stink is the quote um but fame was huge i mean i definitely part definitely partook of it. I'm guessing you two were tip hip.

No, not at all. But watch it. No, I watched it. There was fuck all else on. Yeah. And it was straight after Top of the Pops. Exactly. You know?

Yeah. And it's one of those shows that actually I watched, but I wouldn't admit I watched it in front of my friends who were, of course, all boys, much like the Hot Shoe Show, really. Crucially, it was American and thus fascinating just to see those streets and those people new york yeah much as cagney and lacey is fascinating but oddly you know i mean it's very

influential in a way i think we've talked previously about danceicles and musicals and stuff what fame provides is a very massively influential the tv series that is a massively influential idea throughout the kind of reagan era in america really the idea that you know race class sex they don't matter but hard work does yeah and and this kind of mythical meritocracy where even if toughness or prejudice is hinted at it's all melted away by the end of 50 minutes it's a persuasive thing the music was always this horrific mix of show tunes and prog but but with that that's right reaganite message behind it it was a definite part of that drive towards health and efficiency that we see in the 80s.

It's a mad change in the culture, really, when you think about it. You know, gyms become places people go to voluntarily. And suddenly, you know, trainers, sweatbands, leg warmers. Leg warmers. It always reminds me of that time Adrian Moll goes to the roller disco in his PE kit because Barry Kenner's told him to do that. But it also has bits of that late 70s early 80s new york city look that had touches of hip-hop style in it too and i also love three of a kind

parody of it you know this is where you pay with money um but but the thing is after the show i think for most of us and this this might match up with your experiences after we'd seen the show we got to see the film which is much bleaker yeah and much more miserable as fuck isn't it dark as fuck instantly becomes legend when you're a teenage boy because it's got a pair of tits in it even if it's in a disturbing scene you know much like trading oh that's great it's a grim scene but we're about a year in 83 we're about a year before what we could call full-on explicit us triumphalism which i'd say is enshrined in born in the usa but but the series started that trend or at least tapped into it the film's really 70s gritty seedy the series takes all of that and sort of deodorizes it and airbrushes it and much

as born in the usa is actually a tragic song that became a triumphal anthem so fame the movies a film that actually says your dreams will be derailed by reality that becomes a tv series about yeah just work harder but there's a colossal link between fame and all the talent show bollocks that we've been drowned in in the last 20 years you know talent plus a sob story plus endlessly going on about how you need and deserve success equals success you know and i'd also just as a moany teacher i'd also like to lodge that i think fame had a damaging effect on a whole generation of education managers and what they think performing arts colleges should look like they want performing arts places

to be places where you know people sit around with acoustic guitars and suddenly let's put the show on here and here's a song starting and there's a dance routine. And of course, it never works out like that. So really influential thing, fame. And yeah, as important a weekly watch for me, anyway, as Top of the Pops was. Round about this time, I auditioned for the Central Drama Workshop, which had just been created

by the still sort of new TV station. Oh my God. And I was one of the 5% of the 100 or so kids there who wasn't wearing a famed T-shirt. I had me white Lonsdale sweatshirt on. Did you have leg warmers, though? Yeah, no leg warmers, no. I feel this somehow contributed to me not getting in.

And I still lie there in bed at night just thinking, oh, should have been me on Drama Rama and your mother wouldn't like it. I think I was a bit too old for the pink windmill kids, thank fuck. Lonsdale Top, that's the jam fan in you, isn't it? Yeah. I think a whole generation of dancers and actors were inspired to go to performing arts schools and stuff like that by fame.

I think it was a really influential thing. Yeah, and it's quite interesting that disconnect you mentioned between the TV show and the film, the expectation you have when you watch the film and it's something a lot darker i would connect that to um saturday night fever yeah when you listen to the album because everybody had the album saturday night fever but you know certainly my age too young to watch the film and then you know it's actually really dark yeah yeah and hugely influential fame um i suppose it was the forerunner of glee that awful show a few years ago but i did watch it uh in the same way that you would watch things like friends uh in the 90s

or neighbors from the 80s onwards because it was just there and it was sort of easy to sort of follow the storyline without getting particularly emotionally invested and um yeah yeah it was it was enjoyable trash i would say did you see that russell hearty episode no oh it's cross-platform brand synergization it's absolute worse i mean he goes he goes to see him in blackpool while they're rehearsing and everybody's just hey whoa wow russell do some tap dancing for us wow you're good and then three six-year-olds from the local tap school turn up on stage to present the cast a massive stick of rock with kids from fame written through it and yeah just a big advert for fame by the bbc there yeah yeah i mean and the soundtrack i mean i

remember it being in the charts for just forever i think it managed to stay at number one for a cumulative total of about three months, which is the longest run since the Grease soundtrack album, which is kind of about right. It's an American cultural juggernaut. And Gene Anthony Ray, he plays Leroy, his character in the show is so

close to his real life story because he learned to dance at block parties. His Harlem neighbourhood would go over to the Bronx and they'd have dance battles. And this is like something out of a certain music video that we may be about to watch later on in the show. But yeah, he basically is his character in Fame.

And I think he was very much there as a bit of eye candy, wasn't he? He's a sexy man. There's no doubt about it. And I did watch a bit of eye candy, wasn't he? He's a sexy man. There's no doubt about it. And I did watch a bit of the Kids in Fame live show from the Royal Albert Hall that I found on YouTube. And there's a bit where they're doing the musical number Desdemona, which is basically their adaptation of Othello. He plays Othello, obviously.

And when he comes on, people are screaming. Yeah, he did have that charisma. Not much of a singer, has to be said, but a hell of a dancer. Really good. And I guess we have to sort of talk about the tragedy of what happened to him. You mentioned his mum basically being a drug dealer. And, I mean, he didn't have a chance, this guy, really, when you look at his life. He did get kicked out for um basically missing a hundred

uh sessions for phil you know filming the show a hundred times just didn't show up uh fog yeah and um afterwards he he was intermittently in sort of film and tv and stuff but he slept on park benches for a while and um yeah and he he tried to set up a dance school in Milan but he contracted HIV and had a stroke and died of complications from that stroke and you know when you read an obituary I don't know if it's still the same but in the old days there used to be this kind of code in obituaries the language that they're written in these euphemisms that you can read between the lines. The Telegraph described Jean Anthony Ray as a frantic party-goer, and they said

he's flamboyantly camp. He brushed aside questions about his sexuality. He never married. That old one. Bates tells us that it's a special night, because a lot of the cast of fame are in the building. Then pivots to Ray and asks,

are they shooting another series, Leroy? Yes, we will be doing another one, says Ray. Yeah, thanks. Great, says Bates, and turns away from him to introduce the next act. I mean, do you think Bates even knows who he is? They might as well not be there because every question they get asked,

it's just like one-word answers. Are you enjoying the tour? Yeah, great. They might as well not be there because every question they get asked it's like one word answers are you enjoying the tour yeah great they might as well be fucking cardboard cutouts to be honest now you may be wondering why bates is giving leroy one of the undisputed lust objects of 82 stroke 83 such short shrift but i direct you to an article in smash hits last month entitled the big match where the pop colossi of the era are asked about who their perfect date would be and what they get up to john taylor for example would like to have a jacuzzi in new york with tanya roberts from charlie's angels i probably did steve norman wants a pint and a pie with Deirdre in The Rover's Return. Hands off, she's mine. Lamar lies that he'd like to go to the island in

the Blue Lagoon and write a song for Brooke Shields. Linville of the Funboy Three would like to make Anna Ford her first coffee of the morning. And Joe Elliot wants, quote, the little blonde out of Buck's Fizz for whatever she fancied

but one person has written gene anthony ray he's the only reason i watch fame we'd go for a walk in the park then go to a club with friends and dance to homo sapiens by Pete Shelley. Wow, wow. Who is that? The person who wrote that, Janice Long. Oh, God bless her. Oh, Simon's a bit jealous. Just can't believe no one's gone for Leg-a-Lam with Sean Connery and had a lovely lamb lunch

in the centre of Windsor, but never mind. Yes. The next single is Church of the Poison Mind by Culture Club. We've covered Culture Club twice on Chart Music, and this, their third single, is a lead cut from their second LP, Colour By Numbers, which isn't out until October. It's the follow-up to Time, Clock of the Heart,

which got to number three in December of 1982, up to Time, Clock of the Heart, which got to number three in December of 1982, and it's the highest new entry this week, straight in at number nine. However, like Dex's, one of their old singles, in this case, Do You Really Want to Hurt Me?, has blown up in America and is currently at number two, one place below Billie Jean and one above Hungry Like The Wolf so it's safe to say that they're not available for a Top of the Pops performance. So here's the video set in and around and above and away from London featuring a new addition to the club

Helen Terror who Boy George invited to provide backing vocals for their debut LP last year and has been pushed to the front for this. First video of the night, chubs. It's interesting, isn't it, how both Culture Club and Style Council, with Speak Like a Child, have videos out in this period where they're in open-top vehicles.

I was wondering what the conceit of that is. I think, in a sense, it's a desire to put a band in an available rather than an elitist place. And in the case of Church of the Poisoned Minds, it's kind of a way of making light band in an available rather than an elitist place and in the case of church of the poison mines it's it's kind of a way of making light in a way of what's actually a thrillingly punchy non-stop almost angry record i love the way this song went in the album context i think it's the first song on side b isn't it a color by numbers as i recall and it really gives that that side of the album a real kick you You know, if this is a Motown homage,

and there's a lot of Motown homages about in this period, it's a homage not really to those Motown songs that give you any sense of release. It's a homage to records like, I mean, I'm instantly reminded always of Stevie Wonder's Uptight or Martha Reason's The Vandellas Nowhere Run. It's those kind of Motown records

that keep you so tightly wound up. You know, and the relief in the record comes not from Culture Club or George himself, but, but Helen Terry's vocal, which is just amazing. As is Gerlander's harmonica actually. And what a story that guy has. Tell it Neil.

Well, no, I mean, it's just, he's one of those guys who's appeared on an insane amount of stuff playing harmonica and his history, both as a performer and session guy but also as a manager and just a motivator behind pop he's one of those names that you wouldn't know unless

you were digging deep into british pop history but he's he's all over it he's all over a lot of stuff in the 70s and 80s in terms of both management but also lending his harmonica duties um to stuff and i love his harmonica on this tune. It's both simultaneously like Stevie Wonder, but it's also got little traces of Bowie, A New Career in a New Town. Maybe I'm reading that into it, but yeah. I'm glad Culture Club are actually here in a video sense. I think it's a difficult thing to follow, isn't it, Dex's,

stage-wise. And I really enjoy the video for this. But it has got similarities to that Style Council video. By the way, I did reach across to my record shelf, if you could hear me scraping around in there. And I can confirm, yes, Neil, it's the first track on side two of Colour By Numbers. Yeah, well done. Neil mentioned that Jackie Wilson said was the record that snagged him into Dexys. I think this was the one that snagged me into Culture Club.

Right. Even though I did appreciate their previous stuff, like, you know, Do You Really Want to Hurt Me? And particularly Time Clock of the Heart, which I just thought was a sublime kind of Philly soul pastiche. But this one, I was a sucker for anything that was Motown derived. I was discovering Motown around this time through bands that I already loved, like Culture Club and Dexys and

the Style Council and I loved that to and fro between 60s soul and 80s British pop it really worked for me and this song's one of the best examples of that that relentless four to the floor Tamla Motown beat it's got going on it was just irresistible and Helen Terry this is yeah this is her big arrival because the album's not out yet so this is the first we hear of it it's the lead single of the album what a vocal performance it's all about her really and when you're on a record that has

a singer with a voice as beautiful as Boy George's to actually completely overshadow him and dominate him is quite some achievement and this video I feel like i know every fucking beat yeah every scene of it it's just so imprinted on my mind and i can't think that i would have seen it that many times no we were starved for any kind of pop on tv in those

days so i must have just happened upon it every single time it was on and then you know seen it several times in the in the sort of modern age but yeah he's in this well they're all in this 1950s cadillac john moss driving it they're being pursued by um japanese paparazzi everywhere they go and it's it's a caper yeah um chris gabrin who directed it he also directed things like captain sensible's what and madness shut up and it must be love yazoo don't go all his videos tended to have that kind He also directed things like Captain Sensible's What and Madness Shut Up and It Must Be Love, Yazoo Don't Go. All his videos tended to have that kind of comedic, caper-like element to it.

In terms of Culture Club, he'd already done Time Clock of the Heart, but in this one, he is sort of doing his kind of comedy chops. It's basically like The Beatles' Help, where they're being chased around by the press and there's the bit where culture club take refuge in this kind of warehouse like building and they're pursued inside there and when the photographers kick the door down it's just like about a dozen girls there all sat there looking like boy george and it's like oh fuck

which one one of which by the way was boy george's sister shavua right and oh uh incidentally um a blitz kid icon gets a a little cameo in there when when the door to the building is barged open um there's that very statuesque woman with very white yes and and uh vertical peroxide hair uh who is scarlet cannon who was a sort of a muse and a model for um lot of that Blitz era. Right. On the front of various magazines like ID and so on. So, yeah, that's George sort of harking back to his Blitz kid past a little bit. But, yeah, I clearly must have loved it then, the video that is, because it's so imprinted on my mind.

But watching it now, it's one of those things where it's just a precious capsule of old London. I found myself pausing it to figure out which... It looks like a Hawksmoor church that they're driving past, and there's a couple of dozen of those in London, so which one is it? And I never quite figured out, or where's that newsagent with the Rothman sign? It looks a little bit like Holloway Road,

but maybe that's because I'm so familiar with Holloway Road, and a lot of London would have looked like that at that time. I don't know. No, I thought Holloway Road as well. It's that big wideness to it. And then they get in a plane which is somehow parked outside the warehouse. They sort of step into it

and fly off to America with, I think, Roy Hay in the captain's hat. It's all good fun, that video. Because the final shot is of the Statue of Liberty, isn't it? Yeah, yeah. Which is, in my mind, we're saying, oh, this is where we're going to be for a bit. Yeah, a little bit. Thank fuck it wasn't the World Trade Centre.

That would have ruined the enjoyment of it nowadays. Fuck me. Can I just stop and correct myself? It's a hard day's night, isn't it? Not help. Yes, right, yes. Anyway, sorry, yeah, carry on. I love the video. It's a lovely, fun, fast fast-moving cartoonish parody of being a pop star and i love

george in this video as well i think by this time 83 you know the shock of george if you like is over and he's becoming lovable to as many people as possible grannies and little kids and everyone else and i don't think that can simply be explained as just part of a long history in uk entertainment of drag and things like that he was always very ambiguous about his sexuality and even though of course in this period he's not out out if you like it was pretty clear to me even as a prepubescent kid that there was something going on with this guy that wasn't just showmanship or shock or controversy but part of him and it's easy to forget how revelatory that can be it was the first time really in my life that effeminacy in men was presented not as a punchline or a gag or something

to be laughed at but as part of that person you know i mean i was only sort of you know 10 11 i was sure of my gender somewhat shaky or my sexuality as a prepubescent teenager but i can only imagine how important george was to people who were unsure of their gender and who sure who were sure that their sexuality wasn't herosexual at the time it's easy to forget that but um yeah it wasn't just as simple as oh he's another slightly effeminate male that we can laugh at it was a little bit more different than that it really felt like it was part of him and it wasn't a punchline it wasn't a gag it was you know part of him and if you loved him you had to love that side of him as well yeah i mean i've said before that george showed me a different way of being a man but i suppose to a lot of people he showed a way of not being a man

of resisting the social pressure the sort of normative pressure to declare your gender and to conform to your gender, which was hugely important. And, of course, nowadays we are so much more clued up on this stuff and we're much more aware of the kind of kaleidoscope of gender and sexuality. And things were a lot more binary in the 80s, but it took somebody like George and, of course, Marilyn, being that blatant, to sort of kick marilyn being that blatant to sort of

kick down the door a little bit to sort of refer to something that happens in this video a lot and and just to push things forward and yeah hugely important and by this point yeah he he's not this shocking figure anymore he's he's kind of cute and he flirts with the camera there's lots of kind of winking and definitely camera and stuff like that and he's just really lovable yeah video i think i love how um helen terry by the way is filmed next to a fucking shopping trolley yes i mean i i know i i know she's uh not meant to be this kind of glamorous diva but come on come on i i assume that was the um the one man bam blokes that was his load yeah maybe there's a story that when

Rolling Stone interviewed Bob Dylan in the 80s they asked him does he adhere to any church and he answered Church of the Poison he was probably taking the piss but I like to think I like to hope that he thought this was a good record

I mean it's kind of meaningless like a lot of culture club lyrics around this time, because I just devoured the Colour By Numbers album. When I wasn't listening to 2AA, I was probably listening to Colour By Numbers. A lot of the lyrics are written in this kind of cryptic, vaguely spiritual or religious style and leave you to figure out what on earth it's about.

So there's a lot of references like, step out like a God-found child, I saw your eyes across the street. And that religion, you could sink it neat, just move your feet and you'll feel fine. And obviously Church of the Poisoned Mind and all that. I never really got what it's all about, but it's got this sort of inclusive feeling in it

of just come with us and it's going to be all right. Yeah. And I was buying it i really was yeah at this time i don't think it can be overstated just how important helen terry is to color by numbers i mean strictly speaking she's a session singer you know rather than the full member of the group she's paid per recording or performance but um yeah she's so important to the success of her um what a fucking voice and every time it goes to her in this video you are just blown away by the voice it's not like you're thinking oh well she's got a much better voice

than boy it's a different type of voice doing a different thing but what a fucking voice she's so important to that album yeah there are at least four tracks on the album that are all about her there's black money there's that's the way i'm only trying to help you there's church of the poison mines of course andims at the very end She just totally makes those records what they are I've even got a lot of time for some of her solo stuff She did a track from the Electric Dreams soundtrack

Called Now You're Mine Which was a cracker She had a minor solo hit with Love Lies Lost Which I really liked as well I think, I don't want to speak out of turn But I think they fell out right and it's a real shame because um I would love to see the two of them on a stage again of course she went on to do pretty well for herself in the world of TV production which I'm

sure you're going to mention but have I told the story about boy George sending me flowers before yeah well that's that's all about the absence of Helen Terry basically there was a culture club gig that I thought was substandard and I just didn't think their shaking Helen was up to it right yeah that's that's why George sent me the the flowers with vaguely menacing card with it but but we're fine we have a stormy relationship George and I but but I do love him. There is one little bit of fact-checking I'd just like to lodge. Helen Terry was not a member of the group Thunder Thighs.

Right. Which a lot of... I've seen mention of that. Thunder Thighs appear on, you know, Walk on the Wild Side and Roll Away the Stone. They're the people who do the backing vocals on those. And they released a few singles of their own, including, you know, the deeply disturbing 1974 Lindsay DePaul-penned anti-rape song central park arrest which which actually became a top 30 hit but i've read that oh yeah helen terry is part of them she was not i would just like to

dispel that notion good and it was another curveball thrown at us wasn't it we just got over the shock of boy george looking like he did and now we've got a white woman just belting it out yeah I suppose the only precursor was Alf from Yazoo being a plus sized white lady with the voice of a sort of classic blues singer and really going for it oh yeah I mean

I could just listen to this record and hear her voice all day it's just stunning and you know what you were saying earlier about Boy George being accepted he got to the point by now only three singles in and you can what you were saying earlier about Boy George being accepted he got to the point by now only three singles in and you can't take the piss out of him

because he's that established if a comedian dressed up as Boy George you wouldn't go ha ha ha isn't Boy George

a twat you'd go ha ha ha look at that bloke trying to be Boy George and failing Ronnie Corbett

did it didn't he round about this time one of the best bits in Smash Hits was in the letters page where people had sent him photographs of their grandpas dressing up as Boy George and just sitting in the armchair, not knowing what the fuck was going on, but just getting involved in it anyway. Well, they even got Boy George's mum done up as Boy George

and pictured the two of them together for a poster. That's right, yeah. And it's on your wall, didn't you, Simon? Yeah, he had it. So the following week, Church of the Poisoned Mind jumped seven places to number two and would stay there for two weeks, held off the top spot by this week's number one.

The follow-up Karma Chameleon went one better, staying on the summit of Pop Mountain for six weeks and becoming the best-selling single of 1983. Helen Terry continued her involvement with Culture Club for a couple of years, had a solo hit in 1984 when Love Lies Lost got to number 34 in April of that year, and by the end of the decade had stepped down from professional singing took a job as a researcher for the ITV Saturday morning kids show Motormouth became a documentary maker for BBC 2 in the early 90s and eventually became the producer of the Brit Awards

and Gene Anthony Ray was reported to have sworn in front of fans outside of a hotel in Plymouth when he missed the coach to the theatre and then smashed up a dressing room, possibly with a massively oversized stick of rock. And on that note, Pop Craze Jumps, I'm afraid we're going to have to leave it here for now. We've only just scratched the surface. There is much more of this episode to come. So, on behalf of Neil Kulkarni and Simon Price,

my name's Al Needham, and I call upon the Pop Craze youth of the world to reassemble tomorrow. Stay Pop Crazed! Fall upon the pop-crazed youth of the world to reassemble tomorrow. Stay pop-crazed. Chart music. GreatBigOwl.com Hi, I'm Scott Hancock and I host From Queer to Eternity, a new podcast exploring what it means to be queer,

where we have conversations like this. I look at younger generations and go, you can just Google this stuff. The fact that the only mention of queerness was don't get AIDS. If I'd been marrying a girl, that would not have happened. Maybe we can find a universality that we weren't aware of before. That's why this podcast is so great, because actually, I guess we just don't think to speak of

this stuff, and yet it's part of our fabric. From Queer to Eternity. Available to listen to now from the Great Big Owl Company.