Chart Music: the Top Of The Pops Podcast - Chart Music #74 - Neil

Episode Date: June 20, 2024

Our mate Neil Kulkarni died in January. This episode is dedicated to him.Subscribe | Facebook | Twitter| The Chart Music Wiki | PatreonSimon’s Quietus piece on Neil   |   Sofia’s Gofundme pageSpecial thanks to Lily Wilde for cover art. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

This will certainly have an adult theme and might well contain strong scenes of sex or violence, which could be quite graphic. It may also contain some very explicit language, which will frequently mean sexual swear words. What do you like listening to? Erm... Chart music. Chart music. Love. Language. To the point where you wonder where it stops and you begin.

As a record reviewer, realise where you stand. Not in relation to the record, but in relation to the record business. You're something less than the shit crapped out by the maggot that feasts on the shit crapped out by the rabid dog that is the music biz. And if at any point you start thinking that what you're doing matters in a business sense you're fucked. If at any point you reckon you're anything more than a piddling peon in place to rub a stamp or reject product then think again the biz will use you if you say what they want. If you don't, they won't. Be clear about your own utter irrelevance before you even start, or be ready for a steady

diet of disappointment your whole working life. But, the self-abasing, degrading shame of being a critic doesn't paralyze. It frees you up to write what the fuck you want, rather than what you feel the job demands. You have no favours to grant, no friends to keep, no partner to find, absolutely nothing to lose except your own idea of yourself, your own relationship with your style, taste and ego. This has nothing to do with whatever PR has sent you the record, whatever readership your publisher is aiming for, or any help you can give to a band or artist you deem worthy of your reverse midas messing.

This is between you and the plastic and the mirror you have to look at yourself in and nothing else. There is no career ladder, only a downward spiral from the first thrill of seeing your name in print. Except that everything you say will be forgotten and ignored, but write as if you and your words are immortal. Don't just describe, but justify. Make sure the reader knows why the record exists, whether the reasons are righteous

or rascally. And always remember, you're not here to give consumer advice or help with people's filing. You're here to set people's heads on fire. Hey up you pop craze youngsters and welcome to the episode of chart music none of us ever wanted to do. What you've just heard is an abridged version of an article written in 2009 for Drowned in Sound called The Neil Kulkarni Guide to being a record reviewer. A piece written by a man who wrote for Melody Maker, Uncut, The Quietus, Wire, Spin, DJ Mag, Bang, Karang, Metal Hammer and any other magazine that was in need of one of the greatest music writers of his generation because that's exactly who he was. But he was also one of us, the Chant Music family, and therefore this

episode is going to be entirely dedicated to him. We're gonna be playing some of Neil's greatest hits on Chant Music over the past seven years and we're all gonna take the opportunity to say what we need to say because it's taken us a fucking long time to accept that he's gone and we're still not there yet but we refuse to move on until we've done the lad justice. So yeah, if you can't face that, come back next episode and we'll have a gay old time coating down DLT and talking about Bomber Dog. But this one's for Mira. this one's for Georgia and Sofia,

this one's for Laney, this one's for the Moonbears, this one's for Coventry and this one is especially dedicated to the memory of Neil Culcony. My name's Al and I'm going gonna celebrate Neil first but let me just say this before we get stuck in. I need to apologize to the pop craze youngsters for the radio silence so far this year but I can't lie this has been an absolute cunt of an episode to try and put together for obvious reasons. You know there's been times when I've just had to leave the desk and go out for a walk after listening to the playback of the sadness in the voices of my Chalk Music

siblings so I'm really sorry that I've left you hanging and I really hope you understand. More importantly I need to thank the Pop Craze youngsters because when the news about Neil broke we were absolutely bombarded with outpourings of love and support and regret via messages and emails and even in person because some of the Pop Craze youngsters turned up for Neil's funeral and on behalf of everyone else at Charm Music, thank you. We'll always be grateful for that. So where to start? Well about five years ago we did a series of Q&A episodes on Patreon where we invited the pop craze youngsters to ask us anything and

someone said name two people from the chart music universe who you'd love to have a pint with and I said a Simon Bates because he was such an office bitch that he'd spill no ender dirt on radio one DJs after Arthur Shander and B Neil Culconer because I'd never met him before. We'd spent about two years already chatting shit on a podcast and getting on like an house on fire, but the only time we'd been in the same place at the same time was at a Rolling Stones gig in Main Road in 1990. And in actual fact, I only met him for the first time last September for the live show in London after seven years of podcasting with him. And I only met him

once more this January, nine days before he died at the live show in Birmingham. And that's been something that's really bothered me this spring. You know how upset and bereft and robbed I'm feeling about the death of someone I've only met twice. But the thing is is that every time I met Neil it felt like I'd run into an old mate I hadn't seen for a week because that's what podcasting is like and that's what Neil was like. Because there's a thing about podcasting whether you do one or listen to one it's a fucking mental way to go about isn't it.

You have an idea, you think about it, you think about it some more, you're roping some people that you know, you have a go at one and you fling it out there and you don't know what's going to happen to it or what you actually want to happen to it and what's happened with Chant Music still absolutely does my head in. I remember coming away from our first live show after being absolutely love bombed by the pop craze youngsters and it completely rattled me how people seemed so delighted to meet us in person and told us how we got them through lockdown and what we meant to them and it was mental because all I've ever been is some middle-aged cunt in his back

bedroom who shouts about pop music down a microphone and it took me a month to be able to sit down and get on with the episodes because it just rackled me. But then I thought hang on, the relationship the pop craze youngsters have with me, it's the same as the one that I have with Neil and I eventually stopped being such a bellend about it and got on with it. Now I don't need to tell you how good Neil was on chart music because you either already know or you're about to find out but I do need to tell you how fucking jammy I've been to have got to know him

through this podcast and how much I absolutely loved sitting down and chatting shit about pop music and crisps and fucking sandwiches and everything with him. He understood what we were trying to do immediately and as time went on my main job changed from hosting a podcast that was supposed to last two and a half hours tops to handing him and the rest of team chart music the baton and then pulling out the binoculars and trying to locate where he got to. Oh, and trying to make him laugh as often as possible because fucking it, I love to hear him laugh. And it absolutely ruins me that I'm not going to hear that in real time ever again. Anyway. not going to hear that in real time ever again. Anyway, born in Coventry in 1972, Neil Culconer was Neil fucking Culconer. Grew up on the

top floor of an old folks home where his man worked and almost immediately became a pop craze youngster, developing a taste in music from the local library and whatever his big sister was listening to at the time. Went to the same grammar school as Jerry Dammers, Philip Larkin and Debbie Ashbear, moved on to York University and in 1993, well I'll show up now and let him tell you. Thanks for listening and stay pop crazed Neil. So I'd started in like late 93 after I'd written them a letter. The letter was basically to their letters page just moaning about things that I thought

were wrong with the paper because it was a paper that I deeply loved since about 86. I've been an obsessive reader of it cover cover to cover, for a good six years. And I certainly had my favorite writers and everything else. By then, it sounds pretentious, but I'd started finding out what it was I had to say about pot that was a bit unique and a kind of unique way of saying it. Taylor was actually the person who plucked my letter out of the sort of backlash letters pile and said that it should be letter of the week. I think he suggested it to somebody and they made it letter of the week. Wasn't it Jim?

It might have been Jim, yeah. Jim passed it on to Cathy Unsworth. Cathy Unsworth made it letter of the week and then at the bottom of it they said, do you think you can do any better Mr. Claven? Because I'd actually signed it Clifford C. Claven after my favourite character in Cheers. And being a cocky, arrogant little git as I was back then, I did phone up Melody Maker and said said actually I do Think I can do better and they asked me to do a couple of sample articles I did one that was like a 10,000 word review fucking Miles Davis or something It's nuts, you know because all I was obsessed with was literature and music

But that was how I was hired and looking back it is staggering that I was hired that way that would just not happen now At all people were hired not necessarily by being at the right party at the right time but really by just having something to say you know and being able to string a sentence together and you know people were hired in frauds. And being a leery bastard. Well yeah that helped as well but you know I just don't think that would occur anymore. You'd have to prove how many clicks you've got and how many Twitter followers you've got and all the rest of it to be taken on and that's a real shame I think. Pricey as my reviews editor was massively important to this

because Pricey, I mean I'm not saying Pricey let stuff through the people would have. There were certain reviews I wrote that I can't imagine anyone else not only letting them run but also Interjecting kind of in the pieces and stuff in a really entertaining way and just letting me say what I wanted to say I remember doing an atomic dustbin review at the time that was kind of Legendary two lines and it was kind of like just pure Infected and looking at records reviews now It seems astonishing to me that this even ran But Melody Maker felt like that it felt like we were a kind of not a pack of freaks, but no yeah pack of freaks

I've got to say can I interrupt there a second? I've been interject yet again and say that the review that Neil's talking about the Ned's Tommy dustbin one And I think there was another one was it clear the shaker but these two reviews it is pure venom and hatred and invective and it's basically about 500 600 words of calling the readers a bunch of cunts which is an extraordinary thing for a music magazine to do and I actually I teach music journalism now at Bim in Brighton and I make my students read those two reviews as an example as examples of the kind of extremes and crazy shit that was going on in the 90s because it was

exemplary. The thing is about those reviews they were good record reviews I think because they were about the wider culture. The trouble is now too many music reviews seem to be about kind of the music in a way and they don't know do you know what I mean they don't extend out to actually criticize the culture or where the things are coming from or question the motivation behind music which I think is all important when it comes to things like that they're more about filing and categorizing than they are about kind of rapsodizing or ripping something apart I would say it's the last sort of gasp of the golden age

of Melody Maker I would say at that stage you were edited by Alan Jones and then Everett True a few years from this episode Melody Maker I think pricey had gone and a lot of people had gone and it was on on its way out and you know I think what we'll see a lot of and this applies to top of the pops and the music press and everything else will be Talking about in the 90s is this feeling that suddenly people wanted to fix things to maximise the audience and care about the audience more than make it reader responsive and what they ended up doing was fucking destroying so much. Oh yeah they focus groups to death basically.

Yeah and basically destroying a critical culture that I think is essential to the health of any culture and so it's no accident that with the death of these kind of voices in the press, I'm not saying the music went down the tubes but a good critical culture benefits everybody not just critics but it benefits musicians and everyone else as well. I'm sure culturally the Melody Maker is kind of banded together with the enemy but to me I could never even consider writing for the enemy. It was it was a spiritual thing Well, it's the app's be ready maker because you know melody just melody maker had that voice Throughout it that I trusted and I loved and the enemy didn't the enemy seemed like a music magazine

Melody maker was just about so much more than that and Melody maker just made you laugh just like TV times you say yeah Exactly, even in my most dismal moments at Melody Maker I would have still said it was the best fucking job in the world yeah I mean writing about music what's not to like and yeah I mean free records free gigs that's all good yeah it was always a fucking total dream job I went from being a freelancer you know it to actually being you know on staff at Melody Maker because of Everett in a monumental act of perversity made me gossip editor for three years. I was

a kid from Colmstead, I didn't go to fucking parties and yet I'm meant to be in London slamming my hand on the table saying, yes, I know where Rialto were last night or something. By the end it was horrible, it was absolutely horrible, but whilst it was good it was probably the happiest period of my entire life and I think most people who worked at Melody Maker will probably say the same thing. Right, a few quick questions then. Are music journalists frustrated musicians? No. No, a lot of us are musicians, we're not frustrated in the slightest. Okay, sorry. Number two, do you regret not being a music journalist in the 80s or 70s? Do you know what, there's this kind of golden age-ism and at whatever point you turn up in the music

press people will always tell you oh it was better before you got here and in some ways they were absolutely right. We would hear these stories about Melody Maker in the 70s and 80s having an apartment in New York where you could just go and stay for as long as you wanted, just rent free, just go and stay in New York and just live a bit of that life. Which is just mind-blowing and we all know the stories about people being flown to the States and back just to do one live review on some kind of junk hit with everybody in first class drinking champagne. We all know the stories

of ripping open album mailers and there'd be just cocaine falling out and all that kind of stuff. We missed all that, at least I never got sent any of that stuff. But nevertheless, I still think we were there when some of that was left. There was money, a lot of money sloshing around the music biz, particularly during Britpop. A lot of money flowing around. If you've read the book, Kill Your Friends, or seen the film, that is pretty accurate

to how things were. There seemed to be a party almost every night being paid for by a record company. You could pretty much live a whole week without paying for a drink or even paying for food if you were clever. And that's on top of your CDs and your gig tickets. So it was a genuinely great lifestyle. It was kind of proximity to glamour and showbiz and celebrity without having the downside, obviously without having the upside of monumental riches, but it really was quite an enviable job at the time I think.

And crucially I don't think we ever fell, or I certainly never fell, and I'm sure Pricey didn't either. We didn't feel like we were at these kind of sad spots on the sidelines watching, we did feel like we were part of the culture and that our reviews are being Read not that necessarily bands had act on them or anything But but that we were a part of it that we weren't just that the kind of tea tend getting fed That we were we were a part of the culture and and yeah If you're low maintenance and if you've got a nice smile you could go out and get out your tree with lots of people and have lots of parties and Have a lot of fun.

The good thing about the night is for me is I have memories but they're all kind of a bit foggy and a bit foggy and a bit fucked up because of the substances that were knocking around, alcoholic or otherwise, through that period. I was having a ball, I was having a really good time in that period. What review or what thing out of all the stuff you wrote in that time, would you love to have expunged from the memory? I was always surprised at kind of legal reaction because I remember writing a Britney Spears review where I called the record company, I think it was child molesting mafia Nazis

or something like that. And I just thought, you know, a throwaway kind of line. But before you know it, the facts is, you know, we will take you to court. I got that again from Patsy Kensett's lawyers when I was the gossip editor for an unfortunate caption that I put on a photo of her arriving with her children at an airport.

She was hiding her child's face with a hat. And I captioned the photo innocently enough I thought and Patsy Kensett with horribly disfigured bowler hat headed child arrives at Heathrow or something like that and within the hour I think of that hitting the stands yeah and lawyers were involved and so I should never have been gossip editor man. And who's the biggest bell-end you came across right around about this time I didn't feel quite a few are souls Jay Ruther damages your own for him. Hey, yeah, yeah the rapper He was a racist dick to me as soon as he figured out that I wasn't a black man

What he started being a complete racist cunt and I'll never forget that interview. It's a very story They're very disappointing because I really liked his stuff. The only one I kind of came to conflict with... Played himself. Yeah, exactly. The only one I sort of came into conflict with was Ian Brown out of Stone Roses who left death threats on my phone. Oh yes. I believe that was quite a common thing with him, threatening people.

Really? I went to see him, when he went solo, there was a junket, as Simon was talking about, a junket, unfortunately not to America America it was the fucking bus to bloody Cambridge or something, no it was Oxford actually. I went to see a solo show which was inevitably awful because it was Ian Brown and the only good thing about it was that Sanjay for me Stenders was in the crowd which is great. Was he now? I reviewed the show slagged it off went away I think I went to America that week and I think I was interviewing public enemy or something like that.

Come back, and this was the weekend before Glastonbury, come back to Cov, play my answer machine because this was the year of answering machines and fax machines. But yeah, played my answer machine and there's Ian who had been given my number presumably by his PR officer, massively unprofessional I think, with his usual, hey Mr. Melody Maker, I'm gonna bring your fucking legs and all this sort of stuff

and I'm just gonna maim you and kill me. Which I'm gonna leave you walking like me. Well exactly and then I've got to Glastonbury the next week not really thinking much about it and aforementioned press officer legged it up to me looking really worried saying Ian's on site and he knows you're on site and he's gonna batter you and all this sort of stuff which didn't concern me until I realised he is a black belt in karate. It's like a fucking school playground isn't it? It is, it is but he is a black belt in karate so I just kind of went and hid for a week. Ah yeah but you don't know karate but you know Karezer.

Neil just reminded me of something that happened at Glastonbury where I was at the bar in the VIP bit and Somebody pushed me in the back in a really pathetic girly way And I turned around and it was Evan Dando out of the lemon heads pretending he hadn't done it I wasn't me and then and all it was was that I slagged off his girlfriend. Juliana Hatfield her band and You know go on no you know what that reminds me of Julie Julianna Hatfield always used to I think they make sort of points in interviews that she was a virgin or something and so consequently she was called Julianna Hatfield never had a twat feel which I thought was great.

It was it was a different time. Simon, you had to write the obituary for Neil, for the quietus. That must have been so fucking hard. It was, but you know what? In a weird way, it got me through the first 24 hours of knowing that he'd gone. Because it gave me something to do, it gave me something to focus on. Yes. That he'd gone because it gave me something to do it gave me something to focus on Yes, rather than just sitting there stewing and dwelling on it. Mm-hmm. I could actually try and make Some fucking sense of such a senseless thing. Yeah Yeah, that's kind of how I felt when I wrote something on Patreon Yeah, you know just having to pass the news on to people who were waking up the next morning

you know, just having to pass the news on to people who were waking up the next morning. And yeah, it took me fucking hours. I bet. Yeah. I mean, I think the thing that you said at the start of the live show that you released really hit home when you said you'd just been staring at your microphone for hours. And I really got that as well. I was staring at my laptop screen and I tell you what, something that a lot of the listeners will know is that the last time we spoke, Janie and I, my wife, were about to have a baby. And on the day that I heard the awful news about Neil, we had this prenatal first aid class booked in. Oh man.

So within two hours of hearing the awful news, I meany said look just just want to cancel this and I was like no no, I'm gonna do it. I'm gonna do it Hmm so this this nurse turns up and the first thing she she did was this whole reenactment of what to do if somebody collapses in the street or collapses and and to resuscitate them and I had to go through this thing with a fucking rubber dummy and within my mind that one of my best mates had just collapsed in the street and died and that was tough I was yeah seriously triggered and I had to in the end I bet that the nurse could see on my face that I wasn't right and I just had

to ask for exemption from that fucking grim grim, grim irony on the day that the news broke. But I mean, this is still raw. And it's for all of us, I'm sure talking about this. I mean, we both went to his funeral and one thing I kept saying to people on the day was it's just mad and wrong and fucked up and insane that this has happened. It's just mental. And I'm sure most of us are the same, just still trying to process this. Seriously, while I've been trying to put this together, it's like, I've got to talk to this person, got to talk to that person, oh, I've got to talk to Neil about this. I forgot. And it's like, shit, he's not here, man. I mean, Simon, as a music journalist, a lot of your work nowadays is obituaries for pop

stars, isn't it? Yeah, but you don't expect it to be one of your own who's younger than you, you know, this soon. The first time you met Neil, Simon. Yeah, well, the difference between Neil and the rest of us at Melody Maker was that we needed him more than he needed us, right? I mean most of us got where we were by kissing ass. I certainly did. You know telling the paper how great it was and sucking up to writers, you know.

And Neil was the opposite of that. He'd written to Melody Maker under the false name Clifford Claven, Cliff from Cheers, to call out the paper's unexamined assumptions and the underlying racism of the music press. And the letters were so good that we called him in and as David Stubbs put it during the eulogy he gave at Coventry Cathedral, we wanted him inside the tent pissing out, although David didn't use the P words in a place of worship, you know. So, yeah, he came in and I remember the first time he turned up, he had this amazing, such a fucking cool jacket. It was like a green and cream leather sort of box shaped jacket. And it was just one of the most beautiful garments of clothing I've ever seen.

And I just thought this guy's got style. He was a sharp man, wasn't he? He was a well dressed man. He really was. I always felt like a fucking bin bag sat next to him. Exactly. Jesus. He had this charisma about him and he had this aura of never trying too hard to impress anyone, which of course that is the essence of cool, is to not try too hard to impress people. And we knew what we had on our hands. We knew what a talent we had. As soon as we just gave him a few tryouts, he was obviously brilliant. And when I ended up reviews editor and I was

able to put work his way, he was usually the first name on the team sheet, as it were. He was the first person I would think of in any given week. I think, right, what can I get Neil doing this week? And I would usually try and make sure that he had at least one kind of half page lead review if I had the power to do so, because you knew it was going to deliver. One thing he brought to the paper, of course, it's like our sort of secret weapon, was he had this exceptional knowledge and understanding of hip hop. Anyone who's read his book, The Periodic Table of Hip Hop, will know that. What a book that is. And I would urge anyone to go look in for his review of Mobb Deep in Melody Maker, their debut album. It's an incredible piece of writing.

But there was so much more to him than just being a hip hop guy, you know? Yeah. I think he did get pigeonholed and ghettoized a little bit as being that in some people's minds. But when given the chance, he would write really eloquently about art rock bands. So people like Come and Pram and Throwing Muses. And his favorite band were the Rolling Stones, which always, I always wanted to have a big, big conversation with him about that, which I never got to have. But, you know, despite all the reasons for him not to like them, like the fact that, you know, they stole everything from the blues, but, you know, he just

couldn't resist whatever it was about them that sort of cut through to him. He was a really sort of eclectic and broad minded journalist. In his later years, and god it feels weird saying later years about somebody who was barely into middle age, he was really evangelical about classical music and about Radio 3, which nobody would have seen that coming 30 years ago. One thing that really struck me when the news broke was somebody tweeted, they had gone through Neil's best albums or best records of 2023 and made a playlist out of it because you would trust his recommendations. And yeah, he put the rest of us to shame. I've become pretty much a kind of retro journalist now. But Neil never let that flame die out.

He was always looking for the next thing as well as just excavating the past. So that was a really admirable thing. And he absolutely loved music, which sounds like an obvious thing to say about a music journalist, but particularly in his case, it's important to state that, because he did have this reputation as being a sort of, you know, a hatchet man.

He became legendary for his takedowns, like his review of Ned's Atomic Duskbin, which consists of one long sentence, which is just this ad hominem attack on a big chunk of our readership. Amazing, just attacking the readers and then one short sentence at the end. Or his review of Cooler Shaker, which wasn't really about the album at all, but about the music industry's asinine imbecilic search for the next Oasis or famously his review of the enemy in the choir as in the Coventry band. He did make enemies of course. He had this image as Mr. Nasty, you know, as a writer, this kind of

merciless, loose cannon, especially as a younger man. But one thing that defined him, and this really came over when I spoke to people on the day of his funeral as well, was his generosity. If Neil decided you were all right, he'd do anything for you. It really struck me catching up with old colleagues at his funeral. Everyone had a story about some way in which Neil had helped them off the record and behind the scenes quite often and sometimes in genuinely life-changing ways and he was always a wise counsel. He gave me valuable advice on numerous occasions and I'll always treasure that. Yes Simon, let's talk about Neil being the king of the coat dance because it's really important to have writers in a magazine

that you violently agree with on bands being shit. Almost as much as writers who will put you towards a new band that you're going to love. Yeah, and if you've got any strength of character, you will cherish the words of a writer who is attacking your favourite band. Yes. Because you'll think, okay, I'm strong enough to hold firm in my own views, but this person

is really, you know, making some valid points here. It's all part of the kind of dialectic of pop and of criticism. You never came from a place of snark or just being an edgelord. You always had a valid point to make. Because one of the problems with music journalism that is just about the coat down, as you put it, is that quite often it's writers trying to make a name for themselves as being this kind of, you know, Cruella de Vil character almost, this kind of force of evil. Grotbags. Yeah yeah yeah. Yeah, Neil was never the grotbags of music journalism.

Neil Gokhani was not the grotbags. When he hated something it was because it was getting in the way of him listening to something that he loved. That's it because there's just so much noise out there now more than ever and you just there's too much signal out there you just got to hack through it all to get to the good stuff and quite often that means like being brutally honest and saying no this will not do this is not good enough yeah and and trying to point people in the direction of the good stuff it would be totally shit if Neil only did one half of that you have to fulfill both sides of the bargain yeah hack through the shit and show people the good stuff. And he did both of those things. That's really important.

So yeah, as a writer and as a pop craze youngster, Neil had zero tolerance for cat shit. And in the mid-90s, there was a lot of it about. We could have made the obvious choice of his glorious takedown of Don't Look Back in Anger by Oasis in Chalk Music No. 5 there, but instead we've gone for a performance in the same episode where Neil recalls a whiffy encounter in a nightclub in York. Well, yeah, Shed 7, we've already discussed them, I think we can wring some more juice out of them, but before that, let us nip a mere two years into the future and an interview with the NME conducted by Wells, which goes as follows.

The sad fact is that the sinister, out of touch and utterly evil London Rock Press think that Rick Whitter is a boring bastard from a rubbish band with a bollocks name. They think he is the soul-whitheringly mediocre spiritual heir of Brian Adams. They think he's got shit hair. And they think he stinks of piss. This bloke was meant to be reviewing our single, and he said that he came up to York and saw Matt and was overcome by the smell of piss, snarls Rick. I do not smell of piss.

Even if I did smell of piss, which I never do, I would immediately cleanse myself. Rick, and Shed 7 drummer Alan Leach, are sat in a London pub, sipping lager and killing time before the 5.30 train takes them back home to York. On your behalf, I sniff them gingerly. Neither of them, it has to be admitted, smells particularly of piss. I mean, it just wasn't needed, Stormz Rick. He could have just gone, this is the new Shed 7 single, it's shit.

That would have been okay. Ah, but maybe your alleged pissy smell was a metaphor for the shitness of your record? Yeah, well, but he got it wrong anyway because I didn't stink of piss. Look, let's not get bogged down on this please, Rick. The point is that if you don't like a record, you should just say so. You shouldn't just say that the singer stinks of piss because there's a lot of kids out there right now who think that I smell of piss. The reviewer of that single, Neil Culconer of Melody Maker. Neil, the truth. The truth. Right. Well, did Rick Witter stink

of piss? Yes. Yes, he did. I'm going to I'm gonna stick to my guns. Did he I'd like to clarify one thing I did not go up to York to see Shed 7 and I met Rick Witter or I saw Rick Witter as in his presence Because I was studying in York in the early 90s I went to uni there and I live near the round trees chocolate factory Which was a nice place to live and I started going to clubs like Ziggy's and Tuff's in York. My favorite North Yorkshire clubbing experience, by the way, was in a club in Scarborough called Bacchus, which had a dance floor the size of a dining table, a fantastic place. But I used to see

Shed 7 doing that, we're a local band, but we're a bit bigger than a local band now thing Going around the clubs in York and I used to see him get him a lot of attention that particular singles review Mentioned the time when I was in a club. I think it was Ziggy's and I went and stood near Rick witter because I was wondering what all the fuss was about why these people were fronging around him Yeah, and yeah, he stank of piss. I'm gonna stick to my guns there Right, I mean, I know that I used the stinks of piss thing quite a lot at that time. I believe I said it about Joe Wiley as well, but I think I just said that she looks like she stinks of piss. But, you know, the point is about saying that somebody stinks of piss. It's irrefutable legally. And the main thing is, yeah, just saying a record shit, that's not going to

make a record review. You's not gonna make a record review You have to amplify and elaborate and use metaphors, etc. But he didn't metaphorically stink of piss I recall him stinking of piss and it wasn't before any wag chips in it wasn't my top lip. It was him Right, so you're saying about backers that you won't dance in a club like this And the band smells just like piss Too bloody right they did shed seven fucking out I mean it you know it's a frequent motif for me throughout sharp music that and you know those pop stars who look like they stink Well, he's one of them and he did because I had prior experience. But yeah I didn't go up to York to see Shed 7. He just happened to swim into the nightclub

that I was in and I was glad to verify that and well I was glad to use that later. So if he offered to make you a sandwich. No, fuck no, fuck no. It'd have yellow stains on it, man, no. No. But the thing is, you know, I'd like to say, we shed seven, I could attack it in that way, but in a way, looking back, this sort of music, you know, it won, in a way.

It won whatever battle was going on. Walk into a pub or a club in, you know, 2021 or whatever and you'll still be able to see bands doing shit like this. Yeah. And going for gold as a title revealed a lot. This was ultimately music that wanted to lodge itself in student memories like the final round in fucking blockbusters. So, but I mean, it is a revealing performance, you know, the live singing thing had come in a few years previous in Top of the Pops. No, no, dear, it is an unseemly thing to countenance in the shape of the show.

It's a horrible mistake to make him sing live, it reveals all his limitations. So in that section where it kind of builds, there's a bit of a key change and he has to go for it. It's so singularly lacking in confidence and umph, really. But shit like this, I mean the thing is about Shed 7 and bands like that, and there were so bloody many of them, they for me at the time sort of reasserted how valuable the good stuff was. Because there were dozens of bands like this, but there was only one pulp, or there was only one Super Fairy Animals was only one super fairy animals whereas look at shed seven in this before and that slightly piss-taky gold suit he's wearing is a dead giveaway it looks like they've got a tramp off the street at

very short notice to fill in for someone who was going to be Martin Frye on stars in the rise well Martin Frye had the height you see whereas Rick Witter doesn't the the legs on this suit are way too long. Rick Witter's a short arse, so they all look wrinkled up. You should have checked on these things. And you just think those trousers, are they gold or is it piss? See, this is a wise move, they're gold trousers. He's not wearing grey trousers, which is the cardinal error made by someone prone to pissing themselves. Yeah, no sensible thinking. Oh, that bit of copy you read out there really makes me miss

Stephen Wells a lot. But the thing is, all of No, sensible thinking. Oh, that bit of copy you read out there really makes me miss Stephen Wells a lot. But all the thing is, all of these looks, all of these sounds that you're hearing from Shed 7, these were getting absorbed by tiny minds and they would wreak damage for years to come. We're still living with the damage that bands like Shed 7 wrought in a way. Simon, in you come. Well, I've been in the presence of Rick Whitter twice and on neither of those occasions as far as I recall did he stink of piss.

But that doesn't mean, see that doesn't prove that he didn't stink of piss when Neil was near him. The first time I remember being near him I was walking around Portobello Road Market, Portobello Market in West London and I was looking through a clothes store and I realised there was a guy stood near me trying on a pair of trousers so he had actually taken his own trousers off. Oh no! Yeah he had taken his own trousers off so he's down to his kex and he's trying on.

Was he wearing a tenner? He's... Well, he was, yeah, yeah, exactly. He was wearing a kind of see-through adult napkin that was like swimming in piss. No, he was... Him and Roachford, they could make a fucking kill in doing adverts for that shit now, come there. Fergie, Fergie, man. I'm Fergie, yeah.

So, yeah, he was trying on this pair of multicoloured stripy trousers that looked like a jester. And I really judged him on that. I thought, you know, if he didn't literally stink a piss, then his taste in clothing did. And then decades later, in fact, about four or five years ago, I actually interviewed him. It was it was backstage at a festival in Yorkshire where Shed 7 were the headline act. Right. And I was doing a bit of work, there was a festival TV station and whoever lumbered into the interview backstage I just had to grab him for an interview and there he was. Perfectly nice bloke, you know, as they always are.

They always are nice blokes, they're nearly always, you know. Neil's completely right about the effect they had musically and we're still living with to this day. I don't know which writer it was. It might have been Andrew Harrison who coined the phrase landfill indie, but I think Shed 7 are very likely the year zero of landfill indie. They are the patient zero that you know. The first tin thrown onto the ground the first day yeah yeah it's shed seven Steve Lamac says an anthemic starts from shed seven and he does a little smile does Lamac because this is his music and it's actually his doing but how shit was your country be if that's your fucking anthem? Well, now here's the thing, right, you correctly point out the suit.

A gold suit used to mean ABC, it used to mean absolute dazzling France. And before that Elvis. Yeah. And they've got a horn section. A horn section on top of the pops used to mean Dexys. Yes. Right? And this shows how far we have fallen, that it now means this. And I kept listening to this song and i don't really remember it from the time and i started thinking when does the anthemic bit

happen yeah when like i thought okay you know some songs can have an anthemic chorus but the verse that gets you there is a bit nothingy but it just never happened yeah and the weird thing about first of all it's two weird things. First of all, this was a top 10 hit, which I don't know if that's just a quirk of the fact that Britpop was so huge that a moderately well-liked indie band could get in the top 10 just like that.

But the lyrics, for fuck's sake, it goes, "'You took the words right out of my mouth,' which is taken straight out of Meatloaf's mouth. They play their guitars in that really shitty indie way where their hands hardly even touch the strings. They're just sort of drifting their hands up and down. The blokes, because the rest of the band are standard indie blokes in black, they look like they're just kind of vaguely thrilled to be there. They've got no charisma to them at all. No.

And even Rick Witter, or as the press cruelly called him at the time, and I may have been part of that cruelty, Rick fuck Witter. He's, you know, you can dress him up in a gold suit. You can hand him a pair of maracas to shake, which he does here. It's a polished turd, isn't it? He's got no dynamism.

The song has no dynamism. Yeah. It's the most half-arsh maracas shaking I've ever seen, man. And I've seen Ian Brown. And Lamac makes a little joke about that as he outros it. He says, shaking the Earth's core tonight on top of the pops. Fuck me, if the Earth's core was shaking like that, we wouldn't be here now because there was just acres and gallons of that shit knocking around at the time. It's really, really very poor. The weird thing about Shed 7 is they are bigger now that shit knocking around at the time. It's really, really very poor.

The weird thing about Shed 7 is they are bigger now than they ever were at the time. They were moderately big at the time. They've become this thing that because they keep plugging away and they play all these kind of like cool Britannia festivals or whatever they are, including the one that I interviewed in that. They're the tremolos of their age. Yeah, yeah, exactly. They just kept on going.

And so they can now, Phil Brickson Academy at the drop of a hat, probably three nights running, they can headline festivals. It's a weird sort of anomaly in the industry. It's a weird little tale in itself as long as you don't have to listen to their music. And like I say, seems like a perfectly nice bloke, but fucking hell, you know, what he did and what his band did led on to things like Scouting for Girls and all of that shit that clogged up the noughties and clogged up the 2010s and is still with us to this day. So it can do one as far as I'm concerned. The reason bands like that still go in, they do keep plugging away. I mean what's being

sold essentially is nostalgia. I doubt anyone's sitting around listening to Shed 7's albums and recovering what musical geniuses they were. But people want to feel, if they're in their mid-40s, they want to feel like they did when they were young. So they'll buy tickets for shit like that. But that Lamac phrase at the end really got to me, and then shaking the earth's core. That kind of jokey enemy type hyperbole really used to piss me off and still does. And the odd thing is with this record going for gold it is their best That's this is as good as shed 7 get And with a depressing inevitability The week before Neil died the new shed 7 LP entered the album chart at number one. Shit world, fuck off.

The last time me and Simon saw Neil was at our live show in Birmingham in January, in a city that Neil had a complicated relationship with. Thankfully he made his peace with the second city on stage and of course over the past seven years he got stuck into many a Birmingham band on chart music, most of whom he loved. The Beat, Duran Duran and Black Sabbath to name but a few. But we're going back to December of 1982 and chart music number 55 when Neil and the rock expert got stuck into an Indiac from Sutton Coldfield who had shook the world. Save your love my darling, save your love.

For summer nights with moon and stars above The Kid finally manages to run down the top ten, settling upon the number one single of the week. Save Your Love by René and Renato. Fucking hell. Born in Biera, Italy in 1940, Renato Pagliari was the former member of the local church choir who went on to enrol in a school for professional waiters and then started a career

in various high-end international restaurants. By the early 70s he had settled in Sutton Coldfield, dividing his time between wielding one of their massive parmesan mills and bringing opera to the wheel tappers and shunters circuit and in 1975 he finished second place in that year's M&B and Birmingham male talent contest a tournament held in West Midlands pubs which was judged by Don McClain, not that one, the other one, Ray Graydon of Aston Villa and Bill Maynard. A year later, he appeared on the ATV talent show New Faces where he was told by one of the panel that a tenor like Renato could never be a star. The judge who spat in his face? Noel Edmonds.

Bastard. Although he didn't win, the TV appearance spurred him on to ramp up his pursuit of a musical career and he eventually turned professional in 1978, falling into the orbit of Johnny Edward, the former guitarist of David Bowie's band The Manish Boys, but more importantly, the creator and the voice of Mekkel McKay. And in 1982, the owner of the independent label Hollywood Records. For the label's second release, he pulled out a song he'd written in the mid-70s, which, in his own words, was written as a joke to give the fingers to save all your kisses for me and all those other songs that made me want to chew the carpet. And he offered it to Pagliari who was currently doing a summer season at Great

Yarmouth with the double act Barry Cheese and Mike Onion. Obviously they needed a lady for Renato to pitch woo at, so Pagliari suggested someone he had worked with during a summer season in Margate the year before, Hilary Lester, a 22 year old session singer who was working in another group at the time who was given a suitable onomatopoeic name. This is their debut single which came out on the 1st of October and was immediately picked up and played to death by the kingmaker of Christmas number ones, Terry Wogan, which got it into the charts at number 54 at the end of the month.

Two weeks later it entered the top 40 at number 38, then soared 14 places to 24 which necessitated the putting together of a video for Top of the Pops which helped it soar once again to number 9 and last week it knocked Beat Surrender by the Jam off the summit of Poppo Montagna making it the first ever independent single to get to number 1. This is its second week at the top, the Christmas number one of 1982, and here is that video again. Fucking hell, the tangled web of pop. Mmm, indeed. The first ever independent number one, who

knew? Well, did Ian Curtis die for this? You don't hear this play that your fucking indie disc goesos do you? Next to fucking Step On and The Voltaire is a part. Where do we even begin with this faggot bruschetta of a record? Well, I think we have to start with a video don't we really? Oh god yes. You know, it's, I mean, it's one of the greatest artifacts of the age. It really is an attempt at kind of lush, swoon-some operatic romance, but it just comes across like a slightly melancholy weekend at a nice big country pub in the Sandwell and Dudley area. This is what the West Midlands thinks is opulent in 1982. He can't, that's the odd thing. He's got this Italian background, but he cannot hide

his brumminess. No, he can't. Whether it's his revolting assortment of faintly too tight knitwear, you know, the way he pours at the pillow after she's gone, the way they're both a kind of blubbery, snotty mess at the airfield, which I swear down looks like Cobb Airport. No matter how hard they try to lush it up, in a sense, it all looks very, very Stetchford, very Lee Hall, very Selly Oak, very Cradely Heath. And he just comes across, rather than sort of some sort of operatic Caruso style dreamboat, he's just a randy waitress tutorial isn't he really?

You could see him in Crossroads couldn't you? Oh without a doubt. As the happy-go-lucky Waito's in a blood feud with Shoei McPhee We have to go through the video scene by scene because it is fucking remarkable I mean the overall effect is a is like a romantic Isis hostage video, isn't it? So we start with Renato in a blue v-neck jumper and a white shirt which makes him look like he's wearing the 1978 Scotland World Cup shirt and Grace likes to go with with his foot up on a ridiculously ornate fountain

let me see Renee and ornate fountain. Let me see, Renee and Renato, who's now changed into a powder blue v-neck jumper, like, dosing about in the Arboretum. And Renee, she just looks like she's been kidnapped and buckling under the weight of Stockholm Syndrome. You know, he's bellowing at a romantic line. She just stares blankly at him and looks off in the distance and then slumps her head onto his shoulders as if she's just given up and wants it over with as soon as possible. I mean I think you really just need pointing out here Al that yeah, it's not Renee is it? It is not Renee because the actual Renee, Hilary refused to do the video. It's been put about that she didn't want to be famous and she was overcome with the success of the

single and she was extremely shy. But another factor is she's in another band at the time and trying to get out of it. So she's got contractual obligations is denying her a place in this video. So they've just got this woman and put a really stupidly long blonde wig on her. Yeah. It's odd that that used because it's very much like Alan's wife in the boating video. Yes, it's exactly what it is.

You have to expect some farmers to throw a cow on Renato from the balcony at some point, don't you? To be honest with you though, yeah, they could have used a mannequin. But it's not the original video though, is it Al? I mean it is the original video, but there's this really strange moment that I'm sure you noticed. Yeah. Are we not at that point yet Al in your description of the video because you know the famous scene when you know he's singing the serenade.

The balcony scene. The balcony scene. The iconic balcony scene. The iconic balcony scene. But soft what light through yonder window breaks. Yeah it does look like it. Is that woman pretending to be Renee? Who doesn't mime the song?

No she doesn't, no. There's a lot of skillful turning her face away from the camera when it's her bit. But there's other times when she's just there and her mouth ain't moving. It's like what's the point of that? It's breaking the romantic spell that they've spent so long skillfully crafting, I feel. This is it. And another thing that breaks the romantic spell somewhat, at least on this version of the video, yes, she's upstairs in this window.

Yes. Of presumably this M&B pub, actually, where 311 is getting served downstairs. You know, the famous bit where he throws the rose up to her. The reddest rose that he's been longing to bring her, let's remember. Now it's a poignant moment in the original video. It is. But here, for some reason, that's the end. This happens.

What the fuck is that about? Who's done that? It's a bizarre moment that I mean I like that moment because it I think it's a backroom it's a Top of the Pots Backroom Boys. Oh absolutely. It's a little prank definitely. I think it's fantastic. The editing suite yeah. It's up there with the double taking pigeon in Moonraker. It's that good. I suspect added by one of the Batr In Boys, yeah, in a drunken Christmas moment. It's probably been a while since he's made

it. Samaritage, I call it. It's been a while since he might have made, I don't know, those brilliant, you remember those snooker montages at the end of every tournament? Yeah, they're probably, you know, just running a bit dry after dealing with those. It makes an already amazing video better. I think many arses have been photocopied that drunken afternoon and decided to go out to the... Going to the suite and then had a bit of a long whistle. When he's all talked out in his evening wear, doesn't he look like Big Bill Werbonyuk?

He does look like him. On his fucking beta blockers. Oh, without a doubt. But, you know, I don't know. The thing is with this original woman, not original woman, in the video, I don't know, the original woman on the record, you know, she's not American, is she? No. So it struck me listening to this as well, that you know her faint dollyisms on the

record because she's putting in a right American accent on it, that's sort of, I'm not saying this record is racist, but the way he rolls his Rs, I know he was a singing waiter back in Italy, yeah? And what an Rs he has. Well he was. But because he has his jumper pulled down over his fat ass doesn't it? To try and hide it. It's that look that Tony Green wore on bullseye right through to the early 90s So yeah, you know it caught on amongst men of that age and bulk Yeah, but I find a lot he's Italian so he can't exactly accuse him of being racist But I actually find his his accent on this song Parodic of Italian accents. I mean, I'm sure he's aiming for some kind of Pavarotti slash

I mean, it's sort of don't forget. Iulia Iglesias had a big hit 81 didn't he? Late 81, Begin La Begin So, you know that kind of European touch But or at the very least he's aiming for that just one cornetto kind of gentle ribbing of things But he's taking it beyond that here. This is like mind your language type shit the way he sings this song. It's Giovanni Capello for mind your language. It's exaggerated for a very specific audience.

It's no accident that this record sort of its biggest markets in a way. It's a hit in quite a few places, but it gets the biggest hit. I'd say what here, the Netherlands and Scandinavia, you know, cold countries where we have a deep understanding of Mediterranean culture. So in a sense, this provides, you know, our level of understanding of Mediterranean culture at this point is pretty much, you know, at the level of the Dolmio puppets, basically. So this is going to be convincing

for people. And figaro by the brawler of man. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And we've not long checked out of El's bells in Carry On Abroad. Well, quite, yeah. At this point it comes to European relations. I imagine like, you know, Alison Stedman's, you know, in Abigail's party, you know, she'd have been well into this, you know, I do like a bit of continentally rostes in my age, you

know, and uh, yeah, you know, sobbing into a chilled Beaujolais. Isn't it PEE so fat? It does make you think who bought this? Yeah people bought this. It's your fucking non-or again, isn't it? Ruining everything. This is it. She's bought Orville for the kids and now she's, she's going to treat herself with a nice big

spicy meatball. I mean I'm convinced that no one bought this because they thought it was trash or corny or shit. No. The people who bought this are really, I mean it's that great mass of people that we keep coming back to on Sharp Music, who, those mass of people who aren't exactly music fans, but they'll kind of periodically raise their head like cattle to any tune that had that ticks and sort of nursery rhyme simplicities and as a tune it does all the things you want it to do

if you're a person who doesn't really want music to be good you just want it to be done you know yeah so it has that faint tranquilizing effect i think couples probably bought it as well i can picture couples for whom buying this record would have been a genuinely romantic thing to do. If you bought this single and you are actually single, I mean, what the fuck? Imagine if your mom and dad had this in the house though. Fucking hell. Oh, they're listening to Rene and Renalta and they're going to have sex. Yeah, every time it gets turned up a bit loud, you know what that means? Anyway, let's let's rejoin the star-crossed lovers on the balcony. Oh, yeah. Sorry. Sorry because you know cuz the money shots coming up, isn't it?

Seen where they're the line in bed. Hmm. Well, they know they have a bit of a dance first, don't they? Yeah, yeah, and then it fades into the two of them that lying in bed. Well, no, they have a bit of a dance first, don't they? Yeah, yeah. And then it fades into the two of them lying in bed. So they've obviously had it off. And they're kind of like lying on the front facing each other, as if they've been shot by the mafia. Or he's doing a Justin Lee Collins where she has to face him at all times. And then she disappears and he strokes that pillow. Oh, God. And then obviously, every Kissinger's got involved because we see Renato in an outstanding aircrew jumper with cream piping, putting her on a private plane,

possibly at Coventry Airport. I think so. She's crying now and he waves her off and then it ends. It looks like a hostage exchange of some sort doesn't it? But it's all gone wrong, like you say Stockholm Syndrome, she doesn't want to go back to it. And he's probably going back to the radiator to see how Terry Waits getting on. It's got to number one. I know. You know we've just wanged on about ABBA going into decline and saying ah, this is it You know, the 70s are finally dead. The 80s are finally beginning

Here's the 70s reaching a dead hand from the fucking grave, isn't it? Absolutely. Yeah This is the last hurrah for the new faces opportunity knocks Derek Hobson Huey, contingent. Yeah, I certainly read that in the writing of this, which I think was written a few years before it's recording, it was definitely an attempt in a sense to not take the piss, but kind of, not even parody, but kind of be an answer in a sense to the Brotherhood of Mans and all of these people that were appearing at the time. So it does, yeah, absolutely feel like a relic which which I suspect is probably part of its appeal in in the dangerously sexy and exciting world of early 80s pop this is

a return to something isn't it it's a return to something dependably shit yes but everyone was already taking the piss out of it that's the thing oh yeah immediately immediately everything I mean I think some of the appeal by the taking the piss out of it. That's the thing. Oh yeah immediately. Spoofs and everything. I mean I think some of the appeal by the way, we keep talking about his appearance, but I think his size might have been part of the appeal of this record to some people. A pop star who looked like a totally uncool person basically. Yeah. You know obviously mates with Ron Atkinson eventually, he's got that local legend look about him. Yeah, he sang Nessun Dorma in the changing room at half time of an Aston Villa game when they were getting battered and Ron Atkinson said, you go out and show that much passion

on the pitch. It's just mad. If you fucking lose the next game, Renato's coming back and singing his lesser known songs at you. It's nuts everything you've read out, I mean the whole Metal Mickey thing, you know? Metal Mickey? That's insane. And actually the weird thing is the COD reggae vibes of silicone chip is better than this record.

Yes. That's fucking crazy. God, yeah. I've forgotten about that. Oh yeah and the dub version on the B side, it's a crazy record that. The thing is people would have bought this genuinely thinking, a lot of people thought it actually sort of represented a touch of class and it's a cut above all ephemeral sort of synthy dross like soft cell. This is a song that the jams last single off number one.

And influenced Paul Weller, you know, he probably looked at this and went, oh, European, okay, yeah, that's where I'm going next. Good day. I mean, to be fair, I don't resent the success of this record at all. I don't resent. It's a great story. It is. A Waiter from Sutton Coldfield becomes number one. That's a heartwarming Christmas story right there, isn't it? We can accept that, but we can also point out the crucial thing.

This record is entirely without merit. Yeah, it's a horrible, it's horrible, thing. This record is entirely without merit. Yeah. It's horrible. It's horrible man. And this, this is the beginning. I mean, opera becomes a thing in popular British culture in the eighties and I fucking hate opera. Imagine though, being able to sing and then choosing to sing like that.

It's just Europeans bellowing at you. Oh, an Italian man shouting at me, oh that's classe. I'm just going to sit here and cry while I'm listening to it. Yeah, it's gruesome stuff. There's only one other thing I'd like to say about this hour by the way. The drummer. The drummer on this record is Clem Cattini from the Tornados. Of course it is, yes. You know? So you just need to point it out. This is another one of the supposed... I'm dubious about the whole Clem Cattini thing that he played on more number ones than anyone

else. You know, 42 I think people say. Yeah. Because I'm not entirely sure he played on all those T-Rex records that it's allegedly played on. Right. But you know, it's nuts, isn't it? It is crazy that he's got another number one hit single here.

He was a Womble, wasn't he? I think, yeah, he was on the Womble. He was on loads of... I mean, he's on absolutely loads. For Tony Christie, for Benny Hill. But how come making a Womble get together, this is what happens? Hehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehe Hehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehe Hehehehehehehe Hehehehehe Hehehehehe Hehehehehe Hehehe Hehehe Hehehe Hehehe Hehehe Hehehe He Hehehe He Hehehe He Hehehe He Hehehe He Hehehe He Hehehe He Hehehe He Hehehe He He Hehehe He He He Hehehe He He He He He He He He He He He He He He He He He He He He He He He He He He He He He He He He He He He He He He He He He He He He He He He He He He He He He He He He He He He He He He He He He He He He He He He He He He He He He He He He He He He He He He He He He He He He He He He He He He He He He He He He He He He He He He He He He He He He He He He He He He He He He He He He He He He He He He He He He He He He He He He He He He He He He He He He He He He He He He He He He He He He He He He He He He He He He He He David, you gave the eulogy at Neil's funeral. Fucking hell, that's a responsibility. I did, and you just took the words right out of my mouth there. Fucking hell. I went up there, and of course, just there below me was Neil.

Yeah. Fucking hell. Then another fucking hell was just Coventry Cathedral. I've never been before. What a magnificent structure it is. It's absolutely awe-inspiring. I mean, you know, no more than, you know, it was worthy of Neil, definitely, but I mean, you know, what a structure.

So my two first utterances were going to be, fucking hell. Fucking hell. I managed to bite my tongue there. But it was obviously a little bit tough, and especially towards the end. And I just think the proximity of Neil and just right there in the sight lines as talking was very unnerving and really kind of brought things home.

But then I did make a couple of jokes. I did talk about how his dedication to, his generosity in terms of people that weren't necessarily as dedicated to heavy metal rock as he was. He said, you only really need to own, I would say, six Thin Lizzy albums. He told me generously one time, I don't own one. And then right at the end, so I'd done the speech, you know, there's a nice little round of applause, which is very affecting. And I stepped down and I nearly went arse over tip right into the coffin. What the hell happened there? And I cannot help suspect that it was perhaps the spirit of Neil, somewhat Mr. Spirit of Neil up there saying, okay joke boy, there you go,

that one's from me. Oh, by the way, Phil Lynett says hi, we're playing ping pong together like you know, so yeah, yeah. Part of me at the time thinks, oh my god, I've ruined everything, but now actually I kind of prefer that that happened actually. And the Vicar described you as a former editor of Melody Maker as well. Yeah, with the actual editor of Melody Maker sitting right there, you know. Yeah, and you didn't correct her, I noticed. I didn't, no. I thought it would be a bit pedantic to do that, so. I haven't been to many funerals of friends, but Jesus, I never knew there was such a thing

as funeral envy. What a turnout! Oh, absolutely. Yeah, I mean mean what a turnout, you know, and in such a magnificent place. Like I say, Neil is one of Coventry's most illustrious citizens. I think Coventry may not necessarily know it, but it's true. It was absolutely worthy of him, definitely. He was worthy of it. How long did it take you to write that, David? To be honest, not massively long. Sometimes things flow quite quickly with pieces like that. And I think also with a piece like that, you're thinking about it in advance and you're kind of writing

in your head prior to sitting down and writing it. And so it probably didn't take much more than I can't remember to be honest, but not, not, not very long. I mean, maybe an hour and a half, something. I don't know if that's not to say it was dashed off because it wasn't, I'd like to say the reason that sometimes when you write something quickly like that is because you've been writing it over and over in your head, you know, prior to the task. You know, it's something very, very important like that. Neil was very much the next generation of Melody Maker writers after you, wasn't it? Oh, I guess he was. Yeah, definitely. I mean, he arrived in 1993 and he pulled a similar stroke to what I did, which is to I got my job, which is to sort of write a kind of very cross skating piece about Melody Maker

As if to invite world you think you could do any better and I'll give it a go So I pulled the same trick back in 1986 and he did it in 1993 under the pseudonym of Clifford Clavin back in 1986 and he did it in 1993 under the pseudonym of Clifford Clavin, which is marvelous. I think, I mean, he was criticized in the maker for its coverage of black music, whatever, and I'm sure that he did kind of have a point. I mean, Simon Reynolds, I think, would probably say hang on, I was writing about drum and bass back in 1992, 1993 when nobody else was, but I think that generally he had it at main point. Also, he had a great point in so far as like, we just had Very few if any writers of color and of course, you know, he brings his own kind of you know

So history and he'll just be his own unique respective that none of us could there's always been a lack of BAME music writers Particularly Asian music writers. Yeah, and that pretty much applies to all magazines in the 90s I mean I spent the whole of the 90s as a magazine writer, working in various companies and I can only remember one black person in the actual companies that I worked for. And she was a secretary. Yeah, yeah. I mean, you had other things that were happening earlier than that. You had like the magazine Black Echoes that was staffed entirely by white writers at one point. You know, it was terrible really and it was something that he sort of felt a bit helpless about what to do about it.

He didn't really care to be kind of proactive, but we did at least get Neil on board, but he really had to hammer at the door, you know, to do that. But you know, I'm very, very glad that he did because, like I say, he just never let up and he brought that vital and valuable perspective. And of course, he was an example to kind of other writers, you know, next generations, you know, like him, Neil getting in there and then okay, it is possible for a person of color to write for the music press and to write with such kind of style and such intensity as well. I mean, he really made his mark in that respect. And I think that's kind of singularly appreciated. And you know,

maybe not even necessarily music journalists, but other journalists or whatever who perhaps grew up reading Melody Maker. Like I don't know, Didier Chakraborty or something like that, writes for The Guardian brilliantly about politics. But he was a huge fan of like, you know, with red people like Neil or whatever. And I'm sure it was an inspiration to him having Neil, you know, in there doing what he did. Talk a little bit about the 90s actually, I mean, with the decade in which he emerged.

And it was a very reactionary decade in lots of ways. There was a real sense about the 80s of a bit of a kind of funky, melting pot thing going on and like, you know, you know, mixed race bands like The Beat or whatever, you know, his beloved specials. And a sense that like ska and disco and funk and jazz and all these kind of musics could kind of, you know, come in and sort of inflect, you know, rock music and pop music, whatever, you know, so there was a lot of that going on. And then I think that kind of musics could kind of come in and sort of inflect, you know, rock music and pop music, whatever, you know. So there was a lot of that going on. And then I think that kind of stopped with the Smiths. It was almost like Morrissey personally wanted to put a stop to that. And then it all gets very Caucasian again. And I think that kind of Caucasian-ness then sort of carried

through and eventually ultimately culminates in the sort of mediocrity of Britpop, which Neil just raged against brilliantly, not because he found the music kind of tedious and timid and all of those kind of factors. Although most of it was. But he sensed the whiteness of it. He sensed there was a kind of implicit suppression of other musics going on as a result of all of this. And it goes without saying that as a visible Asian writer, Neil copped a lot of shit off the more meat-headed

readers of Melody Maker, who accused him of coating down Britpop rubbish in order to make a name for himself and championing hip-hop and the like in order to impress his quote dark mates. He even got letters from Combat 18 which he revealed to us on Champ Music, but the man didn't give a fuck about whose knickers he got into a twist and remained an avowed enemy of the English Rock Defence League for the rest of his life. So let's go back to Champ Music number 52 where he, with Taylor, finally got to air his legitimate concerns about Stephen Morissette. Janis, she fucking loves this shit, doesn't she?

Oh yeah, she's beside herself. She punches the air with both hands and it looks like she's about to go, fucking yes, have it it and then just barge away through the kids and get up the front yeah she's beside herself perhaps to a point beyond charming but that's the Smiths for you yeah no that's exactly it and it kind of slightly put me off actually Janice seeing that you know this is what this is the original spore, the primary ancestral gene pool of the English Rock Defence League right here. There's been a lot of debate recently for a lot of us really about how

all of us deal with music or great art that's made by horrible people. I've seen a lot of my friends go through sort of twists and torsions and traumas having to strike Morrissey and the Smiths out of their listening a bit because of recent supposed revelations about his politics. But to me, he was always hiding in plain sight. He was always sort of part frontman, part Farage. And perhaps because I don't know, you know, a frontman is important. They negotiate your relationship with the band. The frontman is ultimately what changes cognizance of a band to love, but can also just as easily turn

admiration into loathing. I've always had big massive problems with Morrissey that have stopped me loving really anything he's been involved with, especially The Smiths, which was odd in a sense in 85 because in 84, I quite like the Smiths, I quite like the early singles. I think I actually bought, what difference does it make? But I think what happens is in 85, I start getting this sense of double rejection from his music. It's like being invited to a party where you realize that once you've been invited, you've only been invited to be humiliated in a sense. Anyone young, teenage and alienated from notions of modernity as well as masculinity is going to find some resonance in the Smiths music. But it became pretty clear soon that that alienation that he felt was partly down to the likes of me being in the country as well.

And that alienation and longing you felt couldn't really be salved or saved by the Smiths. Of course, this is all after the event. It's only later that I find out, you know, that aged 18, Maurice is writing letters to friends saying that he dislikes Pakistan is immensely because they smell and all of that. And at the time, you know, what he offers

is pro animal rights and it's anti-royal and it's anti-Tory, this kind of outward leftism, but with a truly, truly conservative heart, fearful of the future and fearful of change. And that really is, that's the DNA of indie rock. I cannot deny that the prophetic nature of this record and just how much it influenced and I mean how much the Smiths influenced rather but I kind of wish in a sense white people would fix themselves up a bit I mean all my life I've been making allowances for the shit music my white friends are into and no artist is my palemates yeah sorry but no

artist has presented this dichotomy to me more than Morrissey virtually all my white friends like him or liked him. I've had major problems with him from the off. My sister's mates were big fans, so early singles did make it into my house. So I came to this performance, to watching this performance thinking, oh, maybe it'll be a reminder of what appealed. But actually, it was a kind of instant reminder of why I immediately started hating about Morrissey and the Smiths. You know, when I finally got to write about the Smiths, which wasn't until about 1999, I said there's something about the Smiths that still has an unhealthy hold over people you'd

love to love, but get the facts straight. The Smiths were about nostalgia, they were about destroying any black trace in pop, and when they emerged they were pretty much a rights for whites insistence that nothing since punk had mattered. I was writing about the song Panic and I said it was a letter to Melody Maker spun into a song and that Morrissey is a Ted fixated pre-immigration fantasizing granny of a man. The band laying the groundwork of morose retrospect that Ladrock would later find its spiritual motivation. I encourage people to blame and shame them every chance you get. Now I realize now that that might be unfair to Johnny Ma. But not

much I suspect. I remember him in 84 slacking off things like Earth, Wind and Fire and Sheik and Prince. Because for bands like The Smiths, the DJs that play black music and the press that support them and consequently the music culture that grows up around them, black music is something they wish had stopped back in the 60s. And then I heard and sort of read deeper and I realized that this band, The Smiths, simply weren't on earth for me. In fact, they were sort of eyeing the likes of me with suspicion and fake repellents every time I even approached. So by the time I knew that Morrissey hated rap and hated black pop and, you know, by the time of Asian and Bengali and platforms and all that, I knew that his dreams didn't include me and that me and my kind were a problem and kind of an obstacle in

his vision of English pop progress or regress. And all he loved was these sanctified swayed heads and all this poor doomed trash that kind of populated his perspective and marked the limits of his compassion. And it's all summed up in this performance with a single element that perhaps I'm overextending when I'm thinking about it, but I absolutely interpret as being central. You know the moment when he sings, I am human and I need to be loved loved just like everybody else does, and he machine guns the crowd. I'm sure fans saw that as great because they'd like to machine gun their school mates as well. And it's no surprise to me later on in my career when whenever I interviewed an

American metal band, they fucking loved Morrissey and the Smiths. He appealed to that. Oh, they love him. All of them absolutely loved him because they appealed to that kind of wounded, you know, macho thing and self pity. But that bit to me reveals everything. He holds modern multicultural Britain in contempt and he wants everything to return to a time when the white working class were only compromised by the black working class, the Afro-Caribbean working class, because he sees a worth in their old pop culture. He can't see any worth in the likes of me. And he doesn't like it when he feels that black culture is getting too dominant. And so that mindset for me, that UKIT EDL almost mindset, I think it dominated the music press and the media for far

too long. This notion that there was this superficial black pop influenced music that underneath which all this white kind of regression should be focused on instead. It's really, really damaging. And actually, I remember this song, of course, we all remember this song because we've heard it too many fucking times, but I don't like it. I think it's rubbish. I think it's got no joy or animation. It's just smuggery. And the more I hear Morrissey, the more it just sounds like Cilla Black yawning. So I hate him so much. I can't even tell if I like his performance because I just see a big racist cunt on the stage, this Peter Pan of Welkshmirts. And I mourn the victory of classic guitar rock in Manchester to a

certain extent because there were much more interesting things going on in Manchester in the decade of the 80s. And Morrissey kind of trailblazed that campaign. I'll concede that the Smiths aren't entirely kindling. I mean, for the first few singles when the mystery was still intact and he hadn't ruined it with his bullshit. I was kind of in love. But now, I mean, I would argue, if you like Stephen the Chinese or a subspecies Morrissey, you're a racist cunt. Simple as. The only thing I applaud is the kind of honesty of it. That injured regret, that post-colonial revulsion of his music is really close to White England's heartbeat in a lot of ways. But not for

me and they're a band who actually get the worst the further away I get from them. I mean that machine gunning thing is trying to be all heroic and make a gesture but he just reminds me of Private Pike whenever he gets to borrow the Tommy gun. Yeah and when he draws white lines on his suit yeah to be a fifth columnist. He's out of Billy Liar. He thinks he's trying to do out of Billy Liar is what he's doing. But yeah, in defense of Johnny Marr I would be astonished if you'd ever heard him slag off chic. Johnny Marr's guitar playing on the early good Smiths records is 50% birds and 50% Nile Rogers. But in terms

of Morrissey, yeah, it's really strange how, do you remember how loads of people refused to believe that he could possibly be a racist? Because he was a vegetarian. Or because he didn't like the Royal Family. It's like people have this weird idea that if someone is like righteously left-wing on you know five topics they can't be foul on another you know. If you're looking for reasons why people still give Morris a chance you won't find them in this performance because this performance is totally unremarkable. And it's weird because you'd think that a band that did have a strong image and were performing, I still think one of their most powerful and unusual records would dominate this episode and it would be the thing you came away remembering, but it's

almost an afterthought, right? There's no sense of occasion. Previous Miss Spirits is of course, they were smashing through the glass ceiling placed over white rock bands. Yes. Founding that conspiracy to only allow black artists on top of the pop. But now that shock is gone. And Morrissey no longer feels the need to communicate anything directly to the camera. Right? It's like his basic presence is supposed to be startling in itself and it's not. You just say, I'll stop licking your lips, man. There's no sense of this being an event or disruptive. People at home will have been watching this, like people who didn't follow the charts or

whatever, didn't know who these people were. They just think oh look It's a watered-down killing joke because no difference to most audience You know, it's a do me records got big guitars and walloping drums in a weirdo Singer wailing it's all the same, you know But that one had a bit of guts to it and it it shouldn't have been that way I think it's a bit of a betrayal of one of their best tracks shouldn't have been that way. I think it's a bit of a betrayal

of one of their best tracks. But yeah, it struck me a few years back. You can draw a line in Morris's career on one side of which he's objectively a really good lyricist. And on the other, his lyrics are facile and frivolous and not half as funny as they're meant to be. But the thing is that line isn't drawn in 2002 or 1996,

it's in 1984, like months after the Smiths got started. And the deterioration seemed to have happened almost immediately at the precise moment he became successful. Because we know that those first batch of Smith songs came out of his old notebooks and they were mostly written when he was a nobody. And I still think those lyrics are startlingly sharp and evocative and skillful. This charming man is possibly one of the most underrated lyrics I can think of. It's elegantly concise,

and there's a whole screenplay in there with defined characters and an intriguing scenario and a dramatic dilemma. And it's like 90 minutes of queer cinema compressed into I think 14 lines with a chorus that's just got a catchy lyrical hook that doesn't advance the plot at all. And that's phenomenal songwriting. And a lot of the stuff from the Smiths first year is not as

good as that, but it shares a lot of the same qualities and it's authentically daring and, and, and unique. And then something happens. And afterwards, almost everything is just this dashed off, silly ass froth, you know? Yeah. Well, he's too busy thinking about things to say for his interviews. Yeah. Yeah. And it happened at the precise moment he used up his pre-Fame lyrics and began writing as a successful pop musician. Yeah. And a minor star. Instantly he went to shit. And it was this bloke who'd spent his whole adolescence

believing that fame was his only salvation. And it turned out to be the worst thing that could possibly have happened to him. Like in terms of his own creativity, maybe in terms of his own happiness, it helped, I don't know. But his happiness didn't seem to do very much for him in terms of not being a cunt, you know. I think that's one of the most intriguing and under discussed aspects of

Of the smiths the the way that almost immediately he went off a cliff in terms of the quality of what he came up with And nobody noticed this in the 80s because this spell had been cast and he'd go like Oh, no, no, no no how Joan of Arc felt brilliant isn't amazing he said he knew how Joan of Arc felt when she had a walkman on and that's what that's shit that's fucking terrible it's like if you want to listen to to humorous very English slightly whimsical isn't a half-man half biscuit they're fucking brilliant and go listen to my oh I know humorous, very English, slightly whimsical. It isn't a Half Man Half Biscuit. They're fucking brilliant.

And then go listen to Mori, oh, I know how Joan of Arc, fuck off, it's a waste of my time. Which side of that divide does this one come under then, Taylor, is this when he's fallen off? I don't know. There's hardly any lyrics in it, is there? It's just a verse repeated. Right. Yeah.

I think this is probably post drop off because yeah, there's almost nothing on it, is there? It's just a bit of wailing. What you're really listening to is Johnny Ma just having a ball. Yeah. Yeah. It's the sound of this record. There's no denying that when you first heard this on the radio, the initial sound of it is amazing.

But it kind of then doesn't do enough for me. I like that sound, don't get me wrong, but it just kind of hangs there and doesn't move anywhere. So that's kind of why I started having problems with this record. It took me ages to realize this was a Smith song. Oh yeah, for me it doesn't sound like one. You know, I was used to a certain sound from them and this was just a bit of a step up and a bit of a step beyond

So I was captivated by the sound but yeah, not him or his lyrics And it took me even longer to realize that Morris he wasn't singing. I am the Sun in the air SUN AIR Sounds a bit hippie Tell you what though if you want to if you want a laugh And a little bit of Schadenfreude, watch that biopic of Morrissey that came out a few years ago. Have you ever seen it?

No, I haven't. No. It's called England is Mine and I'm a big fan of mortifying rock star biopics. So I watched it for kicks and it is a scream. It's all about his pre-Smith's life, not thated thrill ride and there's no Smith's music allowed in it and nobody looks like anybody they're supposed to look like and like all modern stuff set in the 70s the people in it don't look like they're from the 70s they look like they're in pulp half of them are obviously muscly

because they go to the gym because they're from the 21st century. Just unlike anyone in the seventies except professional sportsmen and gangsters enforcers and some gay men. So it's just all these blokes in like retro purple wing collar shirts trying to conceal these grapefruit biceps.

But it's a wonderful film. I like a wonderful piece of shit. It's almost on a par with Summer Dreams, the story of the beach boys and Daydream Believers, the monkeys story, which are my two favourite biopic catastrophes. Right, the first five minutes of this film, he's in his room with his mate in specs and she picks up a book about the Moors murderers which happens to be lying around and holds it up and says do you ever think it might have been us buried in the dirt he's sat there reading his 70s music paper from that week and it's all yellow because they got it out of someone's collection.

Then you've got people in what's meant to be a 70s rock club in Manchester and they go up the bar and ask for a beer and they give them a green bottle of Becks. It's like no you won't get Manchester in the 70s mate. Oh and you know his mate Linda Ster, who in real life was a militantly un-glamorous feminist punk, in this film she becomes a sexy goth chick. It's so fucked up. If you imagine what this film would be like, right, it's like that. Oh, and he's straight in it. That's the other thing. This is the film that finally quashes those ugly rumors. All the sexy ladies are after him because he's a shy individual which you know as we all know is what happens in real life.

Yeah oh god yeah knocking them off of your steak. His boss comes up to him at one point and says why can't you be more like everyone else? And Morris, he just does a meaningful pause and stares at him. Oh, and he's got a big Oscar Wilde poster on his wall. I do not believe they sold those in 1978. I think all you could get was the Farrah Forster in a leotard and that tennis girl scratching her ass. Yes.

And the whole thing is narrated by him or it's supposed to be him, right? In his voice, like it's his writings or his personal diaries, you know, which it isn't. I mean, there's nothing about Pakistanis in there for a start, but it's like off cuts from Adrian Mole. He's going, I am so persecuted. When will the world recognize my genius? And it's obviously someone writing what they think Morrissey would have said. And I loved it, partly because he was horrified by it. It's obvious when you watch it,

Morrissey would hate this. Yeah, he thought it was appalling and tried to block it and failed Yeah, it's wonderful because really it's just a film about a ten a penny teenage dickhead I hope somebody somewhere saw that and the penny finally dropped You know if the Smiths were still going now, you know that that thing where they have old films Yeah stills have old films, stills from old films on the covers of the singles, who would they be doing by now? Chuck Norris.

Yeah. Stephen Seagal or something. Yes. Rita Sue and Bob Toome. That's probably really accurate actually, Al. Tim Roth in Made in Britain. Yeah. Yes. Yeah Yeah, sexy out of romper stomper The whole issue of racial violence it's just pales next to Morris's own wank fantasies Yeah, I was sort of responsible for getting Neil the job at Melodymaker, although he would have got there one way or another, so it's not like it was any kind of achievement on my part, you know what I mean? I was at that stage on the paper where I was quite new, so I was hanging around the office

a lot, and when there was nothing going on, you know, trying to get work, when there was nothing going on, I'd read through the the readers letters folder to see if there are any exciting new threats of violence come through that week or anything like that. Yeah, and it was usually absolute bilge and then every now and again you'd get a good letter and then one day we had this letter that was really good. I remember reading it and thinking, not only do I agree the fuck with this It this is really well written and it's obviously someone angling for a job because you could spot that right? So I took it to Jim Irvin or Jim Arendal as he was then known

there was a reviews editor who was hiring new people and this was a time when loads of people were leaving the paper Simon Reynolds and Chris Roberts Stubbers, all those people. I think David was sort of on his way out and he was trying to find a load of new writers, but most of the ones he was bringing in were a bust and it was a bit tricky. So I went to Jim and I went, look at this letter, give this bloke a job. He's better than any of these green horns that he's been bringing in. And he went away and then about an hour later he came back and he said, bloody hell, you're right, this is really good.

So I'll get on to whoever's doing the letters this week to tell him to get in touch for some work. And it's almost a bit embarrassing saying that. I don't think anyone needed any persuasion. And I was just a layabout who happened to be sat around reading the letters folder. But I'd say it as my positive contributions to this planet are so few and far between. It's nice to know that I made myself useful at least once and because when you lose someone you want to cling on to every little connection that remains. One thing about Neil that really needs to be

flagged up is that he never left Coventry. He didn't come down to London to work for Melody Maker. He stayed where he was and people need to realize what a fucking massive achievement that was in the 90s because if you weren't in London you got forgot about very quickly didn't you? Yeah well and this was there was no internet well no there was internet just we didn't have it. Melody Maker didn't have a email address even when I left in 97, 98. So yeah, I mean, if you didn't live in London, you were allowed to fax your copy in, right? But if you lived in London,

you had to go in there with a floppy disk and put it into a computer physically the morning after you'd written your article. So it meant that there was an office culture and it was centralized on actually being in the office space. And if you weren't there, it was very easy to be overlooked and just not thought of for stuff.

Didn't really happen to Neil because he's too good for that. And I honestly don't know to what extent Neil staying in Coventry was just a simple preference and to what extent it was a purity move because Neil did feel a strong connection with Coventry whereas most of us came from places that we hated or at least resented and wanted to flee. So like a lot of people, I hurled myself into London, even though I despised the clatter of the music business,

I put myself in it and tried to claim the benefits while operating inside this world that I hated. Because there was nowhere else to live. But Neil felt at home where he was. So he didn't need to go anywhere else. And the fact that it kept him out of that shit hustle was a bonus for him I think you know and certainly on the occasions when we were in a position to freeload and exploit when

Neil did add the belly of the beast I saw no reserve or restraint on his part quite rightly. It was just a reluctance to schmooze and I think a fear of self-pollution and it's probably easier to to get away with that from 150 miles away. I mean it does slightly pollute the soul, prolong contact with the music industry you know. Just if you go into it wearing protective clothing and prepared for the worst, I think it could maybe do you good. If just by filling in your awareness of how things work, but the safer option is to stay away.

And I think maybe there was a part of Neil that had that Kevin Rowland regret, you know, of maybe I could have had a bit more fun with this. It wouldn't have ruined me. But staying away completely is not something to be ashamed of. No, not at all. You know, I think a lot of people who go to London just didn't have much to leave behind. And I think Neil just felt that he did have a lot to leave and didn't want to. Don't get me wrong, of course the music press were using loads of provincial writers at

the time, but mainly as stringers, you know, reviewing the local non-league bands at toilet venues. But Neil got a bit more than that, didn't he? Yeah. I mean, yeah, Neil was in the unusual position of reviewing a lot of gigs in London because they were the big gigs. But it wouldn't stay, it just come out in London and get the train home again. Which is, you know, there's something very nice and pure about that. Because when there was a proper magazine industry, yeah, there was a lot of work available for

freelancers but you soon found that magazine editors and commissioning editors tended to want drinking partners and seeing as so many mags were in London that's where you had to be or you just got forgotten about. It's yeah ultimately it's about finding that that fine line between wanting to be a part of a culture and a discourse where you can exchange ideas and, you know, benefit from contact with like-minded people or similarly-minded people. And on the other hand, just keeping out of the shit, just keeping out of the fucking grinding machine

that's just gonna turn you in the pulp if you get too close to it. It's weird, we saw very little of Neil. We saw Neil when there was a festival we would go or when there was a you know occasionally he would come down to London and and kip on a sofa or something but mostly our exchange of ideas with Neil was happening in print right like in real time as the paper was being published when I think back how many times they hang out with Neil and in my mind it's hundreds of times but probably met him probably about 20 times right you know I mean

fucking hell very odd yeah I mean as a fellow citizen of ATV land did you see a kindred spirit there when he joined? Yeah, because it's like wherever you're from in the country, there's always a, there's always like an unspoken thing, just that you talk about things the same way, or you have a sort of a, just a shared aesthetic on some level, right? And sometimes that's more important than others, you know, if you're Scottish,'re Scottish and you're in London and you're with other Scots, this becomes like a shed, it's like a force field against them. It's not really like that with West Midlands people,

because you've got this inferiority complex and this sort of sense of, not shame or not even embarrassment, but just like you can't really talk about the West Midlands without laughing but that in itself is a kind of a shared magic you know what I mean that nobody else really understands. As a solid Coventarian Neil was always a delight when the local hero showed up on chart music. We could have picked out one of his appearances when the specials pitched up on top of the pops or the triumph of the singing butcher and the Coventry kids on the Jubilee song contest but we simply have to go all the way back to 1972 and Chart Music number 63 as Team ATV land got

stuck into the magnum opus of Cob Rock. Oh man, the Civic Pride honestly, it's pouring out of me right now. I mean, I've had City of Culture here all year and it's all been shit And I've avoided all of it, but oddly enough Yeah, the moment that provides the most civic pride this year is talking about a 50 year old record But yeah, I feel like Brian Kul Klein lofting the FA Cup in 87 But you know what? God the British charts are a strange fucking thing That's why we love them. This is surely the strangest number one record ever. It's just so fucking wrong.

The thing is, all the other highlights of this episode, and there's several, they kind of point forward to things. Where the fuck does this point? It doesn't point forward to other novelty records. And actually, I'd argue it's not a novelty record. It points back to old music, but in such a strange way that speaks of the broken ramshackle falling to bits feel

of 1972 Britain, even more than anything more contemporary. Cause this isn't old music lovingly preserved and recreated. It's old music that's kind of been left to decay and rot and get gamey and odd and seething with stuff. And you can, you could if you want, see Moldy Old Doe as harking back to kind of knees up some piano parties and, you know, the stomp of pub music that was still happening in pubs in 72. But no. Now listening to this is like opening the door on a 70s pub, isn't it? Yeah, but just being hit in the face with a fog of fag smoke and stale booze and

oh, it's wonderful. It's wonderful. And there's something really curdled about it. It's just a bit off this record. And that's a tremendously difficult thing to achieve. I mean, whenever I've read about this record and people have been looking for comparisons I've sort of read it being compared to kind of like Winchester Cathedral say for instance. But come on that's clean, that's easily digestible as a piece of retro entertainment. Carnaby Street, this is Coventry High Street. This is Coventry High Street. Well with this the title is literal. This is the stuff of former pop being allowed to

rot until it makes you feel queasy. And also there's a faint melancholy to the madness of this. But it's a good queasy. Oh without a doubt. There's also the faint suggestion, maybe all this old shit that we're re-rotating is just old shit. There's a sort of critique to it as well. I mean, later on, as we'll see, we're going to talk about a pop star later who accentuates the weirdness of old sources, of old kind of influences. And I think, moldy old dough, it recovers that sense of lunatic freedom in really old music that we assume that kind of only the counterculture can enable. So for me it's

not a novelty record, it's just a great record and there's genuinely nothing else like it. I mean I can't think of another mother-son band. I can't think of a vocal like that growl of The Hook which genuinely sounds like it could have been a tramp wandering through the studio. Like the whole record was built around a random tramp like a Gavin Briers thing or something. It's no accident that Fletcher and Woodward jr. from this band are big Joe Meek fans. I think you can you can hear that and Stavely Makepeace singles by the way you mentioned that that was the band before you know they called them Sirfley Turner Pagey. They are strange things they're not just resurrecting something long lost. I mean you know we forget you know, they called themselves Lieutenant Pidgey. They are strange things. They're not

just resurrecting something long lost. I mean, you know, we forget, you know, Winifred Atwell, Mrs Mills, they were live and well in 72. You know, but still putting out albums, which makes this triply weird. And you know, if you really want to know, by the way, for those of you who've only ever heard this song and want to go further, I would get a Lieutenant slash Lieutenant Pigeon album, but I'd actually go to the next single, Desperate Dan, flip it over and play the B-side of that song, Opus 300. It's truly avant-garde nuttiness. Really freaky, freaky shit. This is one of the highlights of, I don't know, I'm going to call this power cut pop, um, that's really what it seems to be.

But it's very telling as well that the Batroun boys, they don't put any strange trippy effects on this record. There's no need. There's no need. It's fucking weird enough and not to make things like to cov, but I do want to stress as somebody who's DJed in Coventry a lot, this is obviously a staple and it has to be played, you know, at virtually every cough party. But fuck me, I think this is a great record to DJ with anywhere, especially if you drop it late in the evening, really late when people are fucked because it lurches this

record. It's got this tremendous sense of sort of drunken imbalance. You feel slightly pissed hearing it. I am ferociously proud that this bizarre number one came out of the city I call home. But it is a very cough record, I to say but what a moment. I do like this record but I sort of took against it a bit on this watching because it bothered my now geriatric cat who responds with bug eyes and a grim stare to any sound in the frequency range of birdsong or mouse squeak, including the title sequence of Soul Train, the squeaking of my exercise bike, and the Penny Whistle on this down record. Now on the first two I told her to lump it, but sooner or later I have to back her up, right?

But she likes this record about as much as she would like an actual pigeon so but i mean look yeah for a while this record was bigger than cate bush's hands so it must have been you know people must have connected with it on some level yeah and ahahaha and i can see why you know i can hear it in the the timbre of the tack piano and especially the fact that like the strange doubling effect when you've got two of them going at once. Like the glitter band. Yeah, but it creates a slightly eerie effect which is pleasant and a bit unsettling. It's like a flat beer British approximation of Brian Wilson's spectral piano on the smile sessions, right?

It's not completely absurd to think that that might be what drew a lot of people into this record and that not every sale of it was to old granny grave clothes, you know, buying it with the money she should have been saving to piss away on social care. It's like this, there is something really enticing and intriguing about this record, like even before you see the band. Yeah, I mean it's grandma glam, isn't it? It's glamour. And glamour, we love you. So like, to anyone listening to this who can't see this, you've got And glamour, we love you. So like, to anyone listening to this who can't see this,

you've got Woodward Jr. on the piano, dressed as Robin Hood, a little nod from Coventry to Nottingham there. You got Kevin Ungodly on the drums. You got Fletcher on the drums, dressed like a pirate. Best of all, you got Woodward Senior playing the piano, dressed as a witch. She looks amazing.

It's just this huge old lady, dressed in like a crap Halloween witch outfit, just with a permanent grid on her face all the way through. Obviously, this is actually who the Eagles wrote witchy woman about. I'm surprised Mary Whitehouse wasn't right into the director of public prosecutions about this. I think you will find if you consult your Bible,

it says, thou shalt not suffer a witch to live I urge you to take the strongest possible action immediately how brilliant would it have been if the audience was whipped up in it like a witch craze frenzy became a mob dragged off the piano and started ducking her. It'd be amazing. Thank goodness. What are her familiars? Black cat in a stout. Oh, a pigeon on the piano. That was her familiar. Well, although, disturbingly,

just as witches were said to do to their familiars, she did actually suckle one of these people. So I wouldn't necessarily be against giving her a go on the ducking stool just to be on the safe side but the terrible thing actually if you look at her closely what she really looks like is Arthur Marshall from call my bluff yeah yeah she does like any second the music's gonna stop and she's gonna go well now come with me if you will back to the court of George the second the last of the foreign-born monarchs who

If you were to enter the court of George the second you would have been expected to be carrying your condyloma Because your condyloma was a kind of Call my bluff gags fucking Condyloma because your condyloma was a kind of oh fucking I give up Call my bluff gags fucking Jesus Do we know how old Hilda? What was it this time? Do and I was startled gone. I think she's 58 58 Fucking 50 fucking 8. According to the papers at the time, even more shockingly, she's actually

52, which is one year younger than I am now. Oh, I'm not having that. I am not her. And that is a fucking dagger of ice down the spine. It's awful man, because this year has been filled with people I know turning 52 and Every time they do I'm on Facebook saying happy birthday. Oh, by the way, you're the same age as her on this But no when she died in 1999 her age was given as 85 meaning she would be at least 57 right she still looks about 15 years older than that though doesn't she yeah I know it's not harsh paper round but shouldn't that actually make you feel good about yourself

no no when you're 53 Taylor nothing makes you feel good about yourself trust me just you wait I played that piano that she played no oh yes it yes. It's in the museum. It's in the Coventry Museum. We meant the Lieutenant Pidgey Museum. We have a Coventry Music Museum and I tend to avoid it because you know how Scar has basically become big bald old white blokes music. It's kind of one of that sort of stuff. But that piano's in there, had a little tinkle. Only the second famous piano that I've ever played. The first famous piano, it's not that famous actually the other one, it's not as good. But I played Agatha Christie's piano in her home in Greenway in Cornwall. There was a sign up said, feel free to have a tinkle. So I did. So yeah, that's two famous pianos I played. Oh no, I was just thinking, if it's signed said feel free to have a tinkle.

You stood there just pissing all over the piano. You go what, what? Look at the sign. You ever played on a famous pianotera? Yes, I played on the piano on a day in the life. I don't mean I played the piano on a day in the life that would be quite the play to play. Pre-birth. Jesus, that's put me back in my box. I mean the thing about this song, as soon as you hear it you're into it and then you hear the bloke going mo-dy-o-do and you just think

oh this can't get any better. Then they pop up on top of the pops and they look like this. And you've just surrendered to them, haven't you? Totally. Completely. Every now and again there's a moment where the British people collectively actually get something right. And one of the prime examples is putting this at number one. I know, it's fucking mental that this got to number one, but of course it makes total sense as well.

Yes, absolute total sense. The thing about Lieutenant Pidgeon, in a sense similar to other acts that we're seeing in this episode, they've had pasts, you know, they've had pasts that they're coming out of. They're not neophytes in the biz as it were. I mean another thing to seek out when seeking out other stuff Lieutenant Pidgeon related, please people find a track by Shell Nailer Shell Nailer was the name of Rod Woodward basically from the Senate Pidion when he was signed to Decker in the 60s Age 17 he did a song called one fine day, which was actually written by Dave Davis from the Kinks Right and came out as a single in 64 with Jimmy Page on guitar and it's a fucking tune

Do you see that one as well actually go on the video playlist? I would say there was actually a tabloid kerfuffle in late October, which makes the story even better a front page article in the Sunday people entitled moldy old model Granny Hilda Woodward's pop career struck a discordant note yesterday Michael Jerry a a 19-year-old musician, claimed that he, and not Granny Woodward, played the piano in the recording of Moldy Old Doe, which has been top of the charts for three weeks. Pianist Michael is instructed solicitors to take action against the group, claiming he is entitled to payment or royalties.

Michael sat down at the piano in his home in Burbage's Lane Coventry, played mouldy old dough and said, there, you can see it was me. Rubbish! It was me on piano, Mrs Woodward, who is 52, said today. She sat down at the piano at her home in Kingsway Coventry and said, it was definitely me. Rob shouted me out of the kitchen and I played just like I'm doing now. Rob Woodward said, it's true that Mike sat in for one session, but for technical reasons we had to scrub that tape and send another

one to Decker. I called him mum for the second one. Two amazing things coming out there. Number one, this woman's shaved six years off her age in a doomed attempt to appear younger. They're somewhat unconvincingly, it has to be so. Lieutenant Pigeon have gone, oh you know what we really need to get this song up the charts is pretend that my mum's played on it. Insane. Probably the best bit in this whole performance is where the bass player Johnson creeps up behind Fletcher on the drums, pulls his tricorn hat down over his eyes in response to which Fletcher on the drums pulls his tricorn hat down over his eyes in response to which Fletcher

seems to bark fuck you. No. Yeah, perhaps forgetting where he was from, which is easily done during a top of the pops appearance. Did British people say fuck you in 1972 though? I don't know. Fuck off. Yes, fuck you.

I cont't know. Fuck off, yes, fuck you, I contend not. Hmm, hmm. Actually no, maybe the best bit is near the end, at the beginning of Woodward Jr's big closing Penny Whistle solo during the drop. Something goes a bit wrong, possibly something Brown Ale related. And the whole thing just collapses and there's about- Oh, that is the absolute worst case of Granny Clappers in the entire history on top of the pot. It's just, oh, it's gloriously shambolic, isn't it?

Yeah, but two seconds, which you can reasonably say is the most musically challenging and disruptive moment in the whole show. Yeah, all the Granny Clappers are totally thrown off. And in fact, Granny herself ends up turning the beat around, still with that grin on her face, and she's clapping. Then again, people that age do tend to clap on the on-beat anyway, don't they? But yeah, the demented smile doesn't falter from second.

No, and this, I mean, this record in Cov has gone nowhere. It's always been about, it's always been on every jukebox in a way. Whereas in rest of the country it hasn't I mean a mate told me that when Joe Royal used to manage Oldham Athletic in the late 80s and early 90s this was the track that they played when they used to come out onto the pitch but then of course they got promoted to the division one and then it got replaced with fanfare for the Common Man by ELP. I think my favourite clips with Neil don't involve me actually. There was the one he did with Serebii about Dead Ringer for Love by Meat Loaf, which if I remember rightly that came out during lockdown. And it was just brimming with joy and it was just what

I needed as a listener at that time. I can still picture myself sitting in our kitchen, not being able to go out anywhere, do anything or have any fun. And just hearing these two people talking with such exuberance about a record that itself is full of that. And it was just glorious. And again with Sarah, when he spoke about

the dying days of MelodyMaker heartbreaking absolutely heartbreaking but full of a kind of simmering and completely valid righteous anger still 20 years on about what happened yeah and of course I was there for the Birmingham piss troll we can't conclude without mentioning the Birmingham pississ Troll. You know that Samson gig you mentioned? Yes. I think that was at the Hummingbird, right? In Birmingham.

Which reminds me just of a little urban legend. Something that happened, well it used to happen quite a lot, I don't know whether this still exists, in the canal near the Hummingbird, because you know Birmingham is the Venice of the Midlands or whatever it is. Of course it is yes. And yeah, one of the common sightings in the canal near there was the Birmingham Piss Troll. What? Yeah, the Birmingham Piss Troll. If you ever speak to a Yim Yam or a Brummie they will tell you about the Birmingham Piss Troll.

I've never heard of it. Yeah, well Birmingham Piss Troll was a legend of the 80s and 90s and I think he went all the way up to the Noughties. I don't know whether he's still with us, maybe a brummy, uh, Pop Crazy Youngster could help us out on this, but basically if you went for a slash in the canal, right, you'd unzip and you'd start pissing and then slowly as you were pissing, a guy would come out of the canal and just let you piss all over him. Well, he wouldn't Was to pissed all over him and then he'd retreat back into the water and sort of swim away This is a real thing Didn't dream this honestly

Yeah, the Birmingham piss troll and I've seen near the hummingbird. I've seen around around the Birmingham area I can't believe he wasn't part of the Commonwealth Games opening ceremony to be honest with you. Birmingham Piss Troll obviously going straight into the next chart music top ten. That's the next episode's number one right there and there man. Let's not even fucking bother. Yeah I mean if you're looking for the Birmingham Piss Troll, obviously you've got to go to Birmingham, you've got to go to the Canal and Lava Piss and it's got to be under a bridge, hence the troll thing. Can I just pick something else up? Right, well Neil was telling us about the Birmingham Piss Troll. Yes. Right, and it just raises more questions than answers. I'm sorry I've got to bring this up again. And the more I find out the less I know. It's

been really preying on my mind because, right, just sort of recap, you're saying that it's a sort of well-known thing among Brummies that if you go for piss in the canal late at night, some bloke swims up and opens his gob and tries to get you to piss in the canal. I never said open his gob, you dragged me saying that, I didn't say that. He doesn't open his gob. Well that's not open his gob. He doesn't open his gob.

He just, no, and crucially I should have clarified one other thing. It's not just pissing in a canal, you've got to piss over this bridge, this particular bridge. Right. Yeah, and he kind of comes up out the water, lets you piss all over him. No, no, no, sorry Neil, he does not come up, there is no, he's not, what are you saying? I was merely reporting a legend sign there, I wasn't there. This is, I'm interested in the status of this.

Is it one of these things where it's a real person that everyone knows about? Or is it some kind of absolute fanciful bullshit? Because in my mind I'm imagining, like, you know, Bobby Ewing in The Man From Atlantis. You know, Patrick Duffy. Or like Kevin Costner in Waterworld. Because in order to get there in time, if there's a pissing incident happening how often Can it possibly happen that you me arms are getting their cocks out and slinging them over the edge of the bridge you tell me But like he's actually really fucking quick. He'd have to be the torpedo to get there

He's there isn't he stays under the bridge and Water he's sort of like just sort of kicking about he sort of like, just sort of kicking about, he's sort of like treading water, waiting for it to happen. Waiting for the golden shower. Well, we need more clarity from our yin-yang brethren about this. But yeah, the point is most of the descriptions I've read, because I always say that he wades away in the water. He actually, most of the descriptions I've read, he scuttles away. Stop now! He's a crab, is he?

What the fuck? Which suggests to me that perhaps, you know, he gets in the water for the piss, and then, you know, for the piss stream, and then he, you know, he gets himself up on the canal bank and scuttles away into the dark shadows of Yardley or wherever. I mean it sounds like absolute bullshit to me but I think if any of our Brummie listeners can you know fill us in then you know please get in touch. Oh definitely. Yeah Birmingham Piss Troll sticks. It really does. I have got a small update. Oh yes come on give it. On the phenomenon that I mean all the kids are talking about. It's true that, you know, when I first suggested the phenomena of the Birmingham Pistole, I was at first sort of

confounded by Pricey's quite legitimate and forensically scientific interrogation of the narrative. You know, he was right to observe that my indeterminacy over whether the Birmingham Pistoles sort of locomotive aspect was one of scuttling or wading. And I was floundering to be honest with you at times under his questioning. Oh man. Yeah, floundering in a pool of Birmingham piss. Proper journalism ruins everything, doesn't it? Yeah, it's a Snopes thing, isn't it? Print the legend, Simon!

But I mean, therefore, it was, I mean, it's both revelatory and sort of really gratifying to read a frankly terrifying testimony from a young Brummie on the internet who are, so it must be true, who are at 1.15 in the morning on a cold October Saturday outside the aforementioned Subway Club in Brum had a BPT experience. Oh yeah, this guy had descended the spiral staircase down the canal bridge outside the subway club to have a piss in the canal. I have so many previous victims have. And after a few seconds, um, this guy, um, he sees underneath his tinkle of piss and this was what blew my mind. A mask. Yeah. I mean terrifying, seemingly floating in midair and not some cheap Halloween mask, but a kind of expensive Dior de las Muertos style skull mask. You know, I mean serious

business. Like a luchador. Yeah. And the guy thinks, you know, clearly as anyone would, oh fuck, I'm pissing on someone. Shouts, oh fuck, sorry man. And immediately diverts his stream of piss away from the man with the mask who's on the receiving end of it. I think what happens next is what's truly terrifying in this testimony. The masked figure moves to follow the stream of piss and the guy starts screaming even more, you know, what the fuck are you doing? But you know, as I've heard before, actually, the BPD doesn't answer.

He just, he just silently stands there gleefully. I mean, presumably showering himself in this sort of stream of alco piss. And of course the guy is just traumatized. He comes away, tells his disbelieving mate and swears down that this must never happen again. Obviously, you know, the next week, the guy, like a fool, goes back to subway city and never happen again. Obviously, you know, the next week, the guy like a fool goes back to Subway City and it happens again. But this time, you know, he's, yeah, he seeks like like any scientist in search of the, the, the nigh on cryptos illogical, which is, I mean, I think we can put BPT in that category. I mean, who knows what an unknown branch of the hominid family tree BPT might be the last living exemplar of. But I mean, he gets verification by getting

another mate, you know, to have a piss as well and do the same. And in subsequent weeks, according to this chap's testimony, several of this guy's colleagues verify this experience and they start trying to confront the BPT with questions. And then perhaps the most eerie bit of the testimony in fact is that the Birmingham Pistole never answers, but he does. And this is just shudderingly awful. He emits this small groan, you know. I've never heard that groan, but even the imagined sound of it, you know, makes me twist and shudder in my sheets at night. This is like a groan of satisfaction, I'm assuming.

I guess so. He lives for the piss. He does live for the piss. But finally, anyway, the guy and his mates, they kind of pile down en masse to confront, you know, this micturant masked man. But he gets, apparently the BPT gets spooked and they kind of never see him again. But, but once again, and as ever with the Birmingham Piss Troll, you know, this leaves more questions than answers. I mean, number

one, could the Birmingham Piss Troll be a woman? That's a possibility. No. Possibly. Possibly not. But you know, let's be fair. I mean, number two, is the mask indeed a mask? Or is it? Yes. The grotesquely deformed features of some as yet undiscovered adjunct to mammalian primate development. Birmingham's a, you know, that kind of place.

And you know, is the Birmingham Pistrone no more? Can the Birmingham Piss Troll no more? Can the Birmingham Piss Troll communicate? Is the mask perhaps part of some strange initiation ceremony to an actual whole community of Piss Trolls who have to obscure their faces as they might be recognised as famous members of Birmingham Piss Society? Oh God, like David Hunter! Indeed. But you know, these could be among the primary top ranking members of Birmingham's powerful line dancing community And I think the public have a right to know oh definitely

These are the questions that actually handily form the titles of each episode of my forthcoming history channel series cracking the bpt code It's been Green lit by National Geographic should be on your screens kind of awesome Fantastic our TV spent all this money on a fucking thing about Noel Gordon. Jesus. Have you considered the theory that it could be a curse? The Birmingham Piss Troll might not want to be the Birmingham Piss Troll, but he has to serve the Birmingham Piss gods. Oh my God. Yeah. And perhaps if you get too close, you know, the mask slips in a sense and you find yourself in the mask and then you have to take on that role.

It's like Ring, you know, you piss on the Birmingham Piss Troll and seven days later, you become the Birmingham Piss Troll. The series is coming out. I mean, my people are currently in talks with Greg Wallace's people, so let's see what happens. But yeah, terrifying verification though, I feel. Vindication. Yeah. Fuck you, Simon. I'm worried now that there's going to be like hordes of people going down there, like, you know, cock in hand ready to lure it out. Sarah, there was a guy on Twitter, I think, who in response to that episode, yeah, he did go check

it out. I think the BBT is long gone, but you know, let's see. Well can't we have a new one? It's going to be all over TikTok, isn't it? Come on Birmingham! Piss-talk. What's going to happen to the, you know, the canal is going to be a delicate ecosystem if there's more people pissing in there than ever before. Sarah, it's the canal in Birmingham, it's fucked up. The thing is, Neil was a great person to podcast with. He always put me at ease because he was a team player and he was a listener and a giver.

So whatever his original script might have been, he was always willing to break it up and to deviate from the prepared narrative and actually interact with you so that it becomes a natural, authentic conversation rather than a performance. So Simon, allow me to wheel back because I asked everybody else in chart music about their favourite Neil moment and all of them went for that clip from the dark days of lockdown when Neil and Sarah went back to the yellow hurl era and observed the mating ritual of meatloaf and share so come on let's have it. Let's unpick this video from front to back.

Yeah. I mean he meets in a pub with his mates who are all wearing t-shirts with his name on it. It makes it look like it's meatloaf stag do doesn't it? Well they all kind of barrel in at the start like everyone else is just hanging out and wearing t-shirts with his name on it. It makes it look like it's Meatloaf Stag Dude, doesn't it? Well they all kind of barrel in at the start. Like everyone else is just hanging out and they're expecting to have another boring night and there's a kind of a gang of awesome women just hanging out minding their own business and then this bunch of guys kind of fall in

just like whooping and yelling and I think they've just been to a game or done a game or something. So he's in his standard outfit of a Westcoat with a frilly shirt. He's wearing a Vianetta with a Westcoat. Yes! It's like an unholy amalgam of dessert and snooker. And he's essentially trying to cop off with Cher who looks like Amy Winehouse's mam through the medium of song.

It's essentially an update of you're the one that I want, but with less fairground rides and more pissy lager. Which, I mean, you're the one that I want was so massive. It's still fresh in people's heads at this point. And this has that same musical duet vibe. I mean, I think this video, this video is one of the reasons I do love this song. It's one of the greatest sort of non-Bollywood, Bollywood videos ever. I mean for starters Yeah, like Hunch and Share looks fucking amazing and and meet looks like a geek which is what he is They have a real charge to their interactions when you contrast this with say Meatloaf and Lorraine Crosby in the I would do anything for love video. It's so completely different

There's also shades of West Side Story Yeah as well in the kind of divided sexual dynamic of the set of the setup But people basically everyone involved here is throwing down their best shit the backing people meet share Meet has the first verse and he plays it just right just really good miming a little bit scarily obsessive Yes, and and sort of not playing a role so much as just being himself a geeky kid with a really amazing voice. When it comes to Cher, she just fucking owns her verse and she looks sensational. That to me is sex, the way Cher looks at it.

It was at that point in my life. That was what I understood about adult sexuality. That is sex she looked fucking amazing in this video she's essentially playing a role in mask three years in advance here isn't she yeah she is a little bit but the details become so important to the energy and the joy of this video little things like the way that she chews gum yeah and the slight smile she has and the red rag that's in Meatloaf's hand kind of halfway between security blanket and someone's purloy underwear that's really important as well

if it was a competition, I would say Cher wins this song, she bosses this fucking video she's so sexy very much so, very much so it is like, and her legs her fucking legs, and she's got this teeny tiny weeny leather miniskirt on a leather jacket and her hair is massive and her eyes are rude.

And yeah, she sort of, there's a bit, just everything she's doing is so... If you were there, you would literally be a living drooling emoji in response to this. So, and for me me it's really important it's an important record in terms of how I think about Meatloaf because you know how with some artists you can sort of hate everything they've done but love one thing. I mean I know we're meant to like Meatloaf because he's clearly a nice guy but I find most of his music that kind of over florid Jim Steinman operatic stuff I find it pretty revolting.

In fact, operatic in general, in general when applied to pop, I think operatic is not something I like. I don't like it. It's that instantly overly rich, florid thing that Queen perfected and that kind of leaves me cold, even though Todd Rundgren was involved in Bat Out of Hell. And I'll admit that Steinman's sort of simultaneous love of Phil Spector and Bruce Springsteen, that idea that you could tear that music away from gritty authenticity and just accentuate the histrionics of it is, you know, it's a good project. But I won't listen to any Meatloaf song apart from this one. What blew my mind this week? You know, when we did Sister Sledge, Greatest Dancer, and was mind-blowing to all of us that

the lyrics are actually oh wow he's the greatest dancer not you wonder why. Honestly you're gonna think I'm so fucking stupid but I only just realized this week that it's rock and roll and brew. I thought it was Roo. I thought it was Roo. I thought it was some New Orleans reference or about kangaroos or something. Until this week. Until this week. I'm such an idiot. Rock and roll on a white sauce for lasagnas. I know, I know, I know. It makes no sense. But yeah, I only figured out it's... Or the chef that recently departed us. Well, quite, quite. But I mean these songs make what makes more sense, but when you kids you're not really looking for sense

You're just looking for this bombardment. I remember loving this video and even at age 9 as I was Share sets of feelings that were powerful and palpable most definitely if it's any consolation Neil I used to think probably because of the shitty stereos that I would have first heard this on and not hearing it in context or not paying attention to the rest of the lyrics, I thought it was rock and rolling through. Which would make more sense than the room. Something completely different. Which also I was like, but then the song was over and I hadn't really thought about it but It's oh, it's so great. It's such a joy. Isn't it the whole thing? The video is so good. The song is so good

It's just yeah, the energy of it is it when it's it's a full the actual full video is is a good five minutes And it's just yes by and it tells a story I mean the the story is actually a little bit bleak once you pick at it Because it is like to it's a couple of sad lonely people who go to a bar all the time Yeah to drink because I don't know what else to do. And it's like she's got a bloke on ain't she? Has she? Yes. What do you mean? She's got a bloke She says I'm looking for anonymous and fleeting satisfaction and I want to tell my daddy I'll be missing in action ever since I can remember you've been hanging

Round this joint my daddy never noticed now He finally get the point now obviously 1982 me we think oh a dad she wants to piss a dad off Yeah, by knocking off meatloaf, but obviously it's a husband stroke partner My daddy never noticed but after he finds out I've been knobbing you he's gonna He's gonna go yeah beat up meatloaf, which you must not do I mean you must be protected so it's gonna end badly we know that yeah because I don't think me can cope I don't think he I think anyone could cope with just what tornado of What force of nature share is in this video. And at least like if me and his mates,

they're like a kind of slightly dweebier version of the T-birds out of Greece. Whereas Cher and her mates, they're like that moment in Goodfellas when Karen meets all the other mob wives. They're much more hardcore. So yeah, there is that imbalance, but that's what's glorious about it.

That's what's glorious about it. They're like the Lizzie's out of the Warriors. Yeah, you know, they're like an actual girl gang Yes, the chicks are packing It's a true true duet there's a balance there and I have to say Cher wins It's not there's not a male. Oh, she's in control. There's not a male putting across his you are going to be mine type shit It's much more nuanced than that's much more balanced And that's what makes it such a thrilling and exciting record because during its duration you really don't know how it's gonna play out They're not already in love then they are sparking across a bar and that's what's exciting about

Yes, but that's about the song. Yeah, she's calling his bluff. Isn't she basically? Yeah, and I love the whole you saying the kind of the stare, and he does do that. He's, you know, kind of playing opposite. And he is playing opposite because there's a lot of, you know, there is that dramatic thing, which again, which leaves me cold in that. Yeah, most of his music does leave me cold in the same way that you said, Neil, but also there's as a performer, there's so much there, there's so much energy and there's this kind of slight mania, but it's not threatening it's not

Aggressive it's not you know, so they kind of come they all come barreling in hooting and we're some guys and he does this thing He does this stare which is basically it's kind of a cartoon thing. It's like a sort of Tex Avery wolf Share and it's like and you think he's gonna like take off his shoe and like hit himself in the head with it. You know? It's like that. It's like, ooh, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. But it's not, it's totally serious and totally intense.

The best bit for me is when Cher's doing her pieces and one of Meat Loaf's mates is obviously gabbing onto him and he just turns around and just raises the hand Talk to yeah, what did that lad say? Do you say oh fucking? Oh, they've got Pac-Man now come on He's like no no the woman is so he's great. It's really respectful actually because it's like look the woman is talking Yes, I'm like very but shh stay be very quiet. It's like I might be with a chance. Don't move a muscle. It's great. Yeah. So all these are so many little moments like that that are just wonderful. Yeah. And yeah, also the fact that I have to say that Cher is swigging from a glass, from a pint glass,

from a tankard. And it's not her first one either. And that is a woman who can hold a beer. A Stein if you will. It's a Stein. Mmm. Yeah, yeah, yeah. A Steinman. Quite. Steinman.

But yeah, so we get to the point where meat lays on some awful chat up lines, you know, you've got the legs that do more than walk, you've got the eyes that do more than see, it might as well have chucked in, you've got the kind of arse that does more than shit because that always goes down well with women, I find, when I use that one. And we learn that Cher has got a bloke on, but she's up for some saucy fun, a Cher out, if you will. And then all of a sudden, some of those lads who they're beginning, they've obviously nipped off and they've come back dressed up as if they've come off their shift as an ill-devo tribute act. Or, you know, they've been playing their shift as an Ildivo tribute act or

you know they've been playing snooker and they just hoik sheer a meetup on the bar and this is where my suspension of disbelief wavered because it only took two of them to get meet up there and he is 20 stone at the time so neither of them look like Jeff Cape so I'm assuming wires were involved and they do the dancing on the bar thing which you know was very popular in the 80s. Because as I've said before, there was a disco bar in Nottingham, used to be known as New York, New York, and there were flyers that said, yes, our bar staff do wear shorts and dance on the bar. But you want to go to that bar though, don't you? I mean, that's like an excellent,

that's like a proper dive bar of the sort that is precious and must be defended. That you don't really get here, you sort of do. There's still some dive bars, but it's really an American thing, and it's really a, you know, and that's, you want to go there, you want to either dance on the bar or stand underneath and watch someone else

dancing on it and you know it's the atmosphere is like crackling yeah yeah yeah I mean I probably thought this is what all pubs were like around about this time I was massively disappointed when I turned 18 but I mean you know Cher leaves at the end to cut herself a slice of loaf, if you will, whilst hoping she doesn't get the crust. And everyone else just has a lovely time. I got it into my head, the stag do vibe, because everyone's wearing a t-shirt with his name on it.

And I just thought, you know, you have all these businesses that organize hen do's and stag do's, and it's all boring shit like paintballing and airsofting and making a pot and all this kind of stuff. Why hasn't anybody set up a business where you have the hen do and the stag do on the same night and at this at a certain point everybody meets up and they'll recreate the video for Dead Ringer. How fucking amazing would that be? That would be amazing. It would be awesome. But I mean the lovely thing is how what you mentioned earlier, you know, there's nobody winching him onto the bar or anything. Meatloaf's size is never mentioned in this record or

mentioned in the video or even obliquely joked about or anything like that. And I'm not saying, as an age 9, age 10, I wouldn't have been thinking about this much, but what this record is about and this video in particular is about is that, you know, I mean we've all mentioned you're the one that I want because it was obviously such a powerful and powerful influence on so many things, but you know, you're the one that I want, that's the two best looking people in the film getting off with each other, whereas this just, I don't know, it provides hope, you know, ordinarily it provides hope. If ordinarily it provides hope if you're somebody like me If you're somebody like me you might think somebody who looks as astonishing as shared us in this video is out of your league

But no, it's just about confidence love ability energy etc. It's a really it's yeah and good singing It's a lot lifting thing in that sense. That is meatloafs whole thing though, isn't it? Is that his like extreme sense. That is Meatloaf's whole thing though isn't it, is that his like extreme vulnerability that he just deals with, but the extreme sort of courage that goes along with that, that he just is, I mean like even the fact that he took his kind of cruel high school nickname on and gave himself that's his name, he just absorbed it and took it on. That's what I love about him really. I mean look I have found him absurd and embarrassing before and sort of laughed at him and thought of him as a joke, but I kind of, now that I have matured a bit, I see it differently because it's like this is somebody who's actually

kind of come from really, you know, there's some really dark, painful stuff in his past. His father was a kind of alcoholic shithead who beat him and he had sort of escaped and ended up going to LA just because it's like I need to go somewhere and that's the first flight out of Dallas and so that's why and it could all have gone really badly wrong really early for him you know and he was and he was always big and he was always like the you know um and that is a difficult thing to be it's difficult for big women but it's also it's it's possibly now more difficult for big guys to be in the public eye or to present themselves as sexy in any way. Because there kind of isn't the cultural, the culture kind of doesn't allow it. There's a lot of pressure to say, no, that's not gonna be your role. That's not

what you are, you're the joke. And he's kind of done that, he sort of pushed through it and he's like, yeah, I'm the joke but without without getting hung up on that like yeah i'm the joke so what yeah i'm fat yeah fuck you he's gone like trucked right past that and just punched through somehow but also just as a performer obviously a great singer one of the you know just incredibly powerful voice and just a just incredibly powerful voice and just a huge generosity as a performer and a complete seriousness in what he's doing and he cares so so much there's a couple of documentaries that I've seen about him and there was one where he talks about it's really moving he talks about how much he cares for his audience for his fans and all he wants is to make them happy.

And he's like crying. And you will cry. You watch this and you go, oh my God. And there are so many people who, you know, there are so many performers who are sort of trying to fill some kind of yawning void that is never, and I don't know, I think there's, you know, there's a lot of sort of deeply wounded, fragile people

who get drawn into, you know, who are also very talented people who get drawn into, who are also very talented, who get drawn into, who end up with more fame than they can handle. It's very difficult. But I think there's something to be said for whether you enjoy their shit or not. Meatloaf for the most part I don't, but it's not for me, but I'm so grateful to him. I feel like you should be grateful for people who devote their lives and their whole selves to entertaining others. Whether it's for you or not, it's like just, you know, there is... They have got something to teach. I think he was sent to teach us something about how to live,

about how to fully inhabit the self and be endlessly generous with whatever it is that you have to give of yourself. And I don't think we deserve him, to be honest. I would say, right, that commercially, obviously commercially obviously Bat out of Hell's his biggest record and of course none of us ever want to hear it ever again. No. But this particular song Deadringer for Love what he's created is that really special thing it's a record you never need to find and you don't need to put it on in your house but you will encounter this might be three years four years five, five years from now, who knows, but when it comes on you'll feel that charge and you'll never need to hear it again for another year or

so after that. But every time this comes on and it will come on on the radio or in a pub and that will do. You don't need to seek out this music. It will come at you every three years and it will excite you and it still does you know we're all familiar with this and I must have watched this video loads and loads of times but it's it's an endless thrill it's a hugely enjoyable video isn't it oh and massively so important at this point in the episode I mean think of what's come before we've just had fucking Alton Edwards for christ's sake we need this we need this and we do and we do we do deserve this, I think, after that. But it's like, yeah, going back to the last bit, where basically, Cher, everything's over. The battle is over. The Battle of the Sexes has been won and everybody wins.

And they go off and he's got his armour around her and his little red hanky of victories flapping in the breeze. And they go off into the night to do stuff and you know, to do god knows what and Cher is going to do a lot to him and he's going to like it. And then yeah, everyone else just dances and it's like a celebration of someone else like, yeah, they've got off to have sex, yeah, sex, yeah, shangy. And like it's a celebration of the end of the song because it just dead ringer for love dead ringer And it just pounds like that for like a minute mmm, and it's like it's such a kind of meta celebration of what they're doing and

Yeah, what you can do in your life, and it's that's it's wonderful casual casual sex. Casual sex! Well, I'm sure this is true for all of us. I've got loads to say and also simultaneously no idea what to say. I know that the others will be much more eloquent as to his importance as a writer, which I of course recognise and salute. So I will leave that to them. Also, I didn't know him as well as they did. I did meet him while I was at The

Maker. I was obviously a bit intimidated at first before quickly realising that I didn't need to be and also he wouldn't accept it. And like you, Al, I didn't see him very much in person just on a few occasions over the years. The last one being September 23, the live podcast in London. Yeah. But he was very online and as a lot of people will know. Very much so. Very online man. And I knew him that way for many years. I mean, people moan on about social media and all the bad shit about it, but I've always felt that

social media is only as good or as bad as the people you allow into it. Yeah, yeah, absolutely. And Neil was a fucking master of it, I feel. social media is only as good or as bad as the people you allow into it. Yeah, absolutely. And Neil was a fucking master of it, I feel. He was brilliant at social media because he was interested in everything and could start a fight about anything as well. When Rick Maile died, which is 10 years ago now, Neil posted a tribute saying what an influence he was and said, you can't learn gusto in

all caps. It was a quality that he admired very much in people. And I don't know if he realized how well he embodied that himself. It's such massive barreling enthusiasm for the big things and the little things. He was really finely attuned to the experience of life and how it exists in the tiny, tiny details as well as the cosmic enormities of music and love. Will Barron I think my favourite Neil moment on social media was when some gaminy twats were moaning about Juran Juran turning up to the recording of Do They Know It's Christmas, piling out of a limousine having a laugh. And Neil just replied, what did you want them to do? Turn up on Penny Farthing's Weeping. Yeah, he was very good at skewering people in that way. He was world weary in the way

that highly intelligent switched on people can't avoid becoming by the age of about 25. But he was really powered by this incredible enthusiasm. And I have to describe it as boyish. He just had this amazing youthfulness. Like he was a teenage boy in the body of a middle-aged man. But that's kind of superficial. I think it was the outward manifestation of this power cell of innocence that he retained. And I don't think he ever would have lost that. I think online he was a bit at odds with himself in some ways. He loved a rock. He loved to rile people up and he loved to scrap. But he was so kind of benevolent and biddable

as a presence in real life. Very benign. I mean, mostly online as well. But much as he loved to provoke people and get into fights and have fights across years, I think it did rebound on him sometimes. He was a sensitive bloke. I think sometimes maybe he wanted to turn that off and have a bit of peace, but he couldn't help himself. He was a gentle soul, really. I think if he had to make a list of the people he really hated, the people he thought really deserved to be counted off or sent to hell, I think if he had to make a list of the people he really hated, like the people he thought really deserved to be counted off or sent to hell, I think it would have been quite short. I mean, you know, there would definitely have been some names on there,

but you know, because he didn't always pick his battles. He just had all the battles. He just had them all. And not indiscriminately, but exhaustively. And sometimes I did just want to gently take his arm and lead him away and just say, look, Neil, he's not worth it, mate. He's just a singer in a shit band. It doesn't matter. You are so attuned to like what matters and this isn't it. Thing is he went to everything, every opinion, full tilt, but that doesn't mean he wasn't reflective. He was really keen to get things right. Sometimes he did listen carefully when people might say, I don't know if you've got this one right. And he would very rarely double

down, which is what everyone does in that scenario. But he would always be receptive to it. He was, you know, he was very thoughtful. He did have for me that combination of deep seriousness and giggling silliness that I adore in a person. That's really what charisma is for me when people talk about what's charisma. It's like someone who can grab you by the lapels and tell you how it really is and then give you a piggyback ride to the bar. That was Neil. As you mentioned about people suggesting how one ought to behave at a recording of a charity single, He was very wise and humane and would not stand for people's performative bullshit. When Amy Winehouse died, it was the same day

as the awful mass shooting in Norway. A lot of people rushed to scold anyone expressing sadness and shock at the tragic early death of one of the great artists of our time without simultaneously somehow expressing shock and sadness at the tragic early death of one of the great artists of our time without simultaneously somehow expressing shock and sadness at the tragic early deaths of a group of innocent children. And Neil pointed out, he said, people posting things like, get some perspective, Norway is the real tragedy. Your inability to feel compassion for a single human being means your compassion for many is merely fraudulent. And I don't think that would have landed with them, but they were not the audience. You know, it's like, just don't listen to these people. You know, they have got it wrong. And he had a really keen ear for people getting

it wrong in that way. I want to describe Neil as eccentric. And I want to reclaim that word in general, because it often comes with a pejorative tang. And I'm to reclaim that word in general, because it often comes with a pejorative tang. And I'm having none of that. I don't know if Neil would accept this, but there's great value in not being like everyone else and in being comfortable in that. And Neil was brilliant at that. And, you know, it's really inspiring and freeing to other people. And, you know, it's really inspiring and freeing to other people. It's not about aggressively asserting your specialness or your precious individuality in that desperate way that lots of people do, because, you know, that just shows a fragility of the sense of self. It's being buoyant. You know, it's performing yourself for your own delight and for the delight of others if they're open

to it. I think, you know, who's doing the judging when they use the word eccentric? You know, in the sort of they're trying to be polite and it's like, no, you're weird, aren't you? It's very frightened people who need to shore up the notion that they are the dominant, sensible, right-thinking, normal majority. What they're saying is that person is not like me. And we know where that springs from. Neil experienced racism and he didn't shrink from it. He didn't shrink from, I think that primed him for all the other ridiculous ways that bigotry expresses itself. And instead of retreating into himself, he made more of himself. Not that he never wavered. Before the live podcast in September, we were sitting outside in the lovely kind of King's Place on the marina and he was there

fretting, having stage fright. And he was dithering about whether or not to wear his cravat. And I said, yeah, absolutely. And I was so pleased to see that he did, not because I wanted any credit for it, but it was clearly the right thing for him to do. And I was so glad that he went with it because he was a guy who wore a cravat, and I was just happy to see he was himself. And that was like a little symbol of it. I mean, all of us here are kind of outside of the norm one way or another. It's just our nature. And it's a life's work to make that all right. And I think Neil had cracked it. If you're not like other people, really make it your business to be not like other people. You know? Sarah, I think it's safe to say that the saddest episode of Chart Music before this

one was when we went back to the dark days of 2000 in Chart Music number 37 when you and Neil picked over the ruins of the shocking demise of Melody Maker. EILEEN It was quite cathartic for both of us to talk about the last days of Melody Maker. I mean, I can still work up a good head of steam about that if I'm asked, but I want to let it go. At this point, I really want to let it go. If Neil had lived to be 90, he would never, ever have let it go. Not ever. I really respect and appreciate that. I love that he was like, no, no, absolutely not. I got into it. Then Neil overtook me.

You can hear him just kind of, tires screeching, the fire and brimstone that was coming from him. And it was because he was, you know, we were hurt. It was painful. And people don't understand that, do they, Sarah? I mean, there's nothing worse than a load of media wankers talking a load of media wank. But when you've worked on a magazine, and you like working on that magazine, it's like a relationship, isn't it? When that magazine folds, oh, it's such a fucking breakup. Yeah, it really was. You know, it was devastating. And I know in some ways it's like, oh, how

ridiculous. But we, you know, we really cared and we were devastated. And Neil was very much, never forget, never forgive. And I was with him really, you know, there's part of me that is completely in alignment with that. And I know that we kind of, we named names and we took out some trash and you know, and I think- Clean the streets. And I know that's kind of like, wow, burn all your bridges. And it's like, but Neil was always prepared to do that because he was absolutely not a careerist. You couldn't

find a less careerist person. He cared about, yeah, he could have had, quote unquote, a better career if he'd, you know, towed the line more. But he was just never going to do that. You know, he was always going to be objectionable and, you know, not for the sake of it, because he just said, well, this doesn't line up with the way that I want to live my life and the way that I want to write. And he was very committed to that. You know, he couldn't have been any other way. So let's go back to Neil and Sarah talking about the end times of The Maker and its cover

treatment of a certain Craig David. I just want to pull up something from the website Everything2.com, a piece about Melody Maker at the end point written by someone called Tom Dissonance. Right. And it's as good a viewpoint as anyone's. So Melody Maker's problems towards the end were several. They mostly stemmed from its ridiculously overzealous campaign to destroy all pop music and replace it with 80 Shades of Grey Indie Wank, i.e. promoting

worthy guitar bollocks like Top Loader and Embrace over genuinely thrilling pop music. The problem was compounded by an inflammatory cover based on a parody of a Craig David album sleeve which featured a lookalike sitting on a toilet with a constipated facial expression next to the words UK Garage, My arse. The cover was rightfully attacked for its borderline racism and probably helped alienate a sizeable proportion of its readership. Thirdly, Melody Maker editor Mark Sutherland's sinister reinvention as a kind of indie fascist

proved to be the final straw for many, with his policing of the letters page every week by putting down all dissenters, praising those who slated chart pop and generally saying suspect things about our music and the struggle, continuing as if his readership was some kind of Hitler youth he was trying to motivate. Towards the end, it only appealed to people whose idea of alternative music was a Jamie Oliver compilation. It was good for so long, but just before the end, it really deserved to die. Spot on, spot on. Yeah.

I don't know if this matches up with Sarah's experiences, but it was it was cheerless and joyless and kind of grim being in the office. It felt like you were being watched. The smoking room was really where the truth got told. The actual office itself was a pretty, it was cubicles of kind of tapping drone slaves really. I'm making it sound worse than it was, but by then I was seriously disenchanted with working there and a few things had started tipping me the wink that things were going tits up a few years before actually. Melody Maker closed in 2000

but to be honest with you as soon as ever at true was passed over for editor and Mark Sutherland was made editor. Things just started on a downward spiral from that point. Editorial meetings that had previously been quite a laugh because I was intimidated by the office. You know, these were my heroes that I was meeting and working with. But by 97, Pricey had gone, Taylor had gone. They were my closest mates at the paper. And editorial meetings became, it was like being at school. It was like being told what was sensible. Yeah.

Your ideas were no good because they weren't sensible. I'll never forget a really emblematic moment for me. It was in 98 I think. Me and Carl Loebren, who's a dear old mate and who's now my editor at DJ Magazine. We were kind of in an editorial meeting. Ronnie Sides had just bought a really brilliant album out and we suggested him as front cover star. Previously, you know, that would have been discussed musically or discussed with what the angle might be. This time we just got a blank thing from Sutherland Black Faces on the cover don't sell and that was that you know that was that and then I started noticing that kind of underestimation of the readership. I started noticing it in the copy most importantly to me in my bloody copy. I've mentioned in the copy. Most importantly to me, in my bloody copy. I've mentioned in the past the changing of things

so that references that were pre-1982 had to be explained. You'd also find these really ugly explanatory clauses being inserted in all your writing. I mean, it's testament to the fact what precious little fucks we can be as writers, but I still am aggrieved over a Janet Jackson review I wrote in 98, where I think one of the lines ended, we're not in Kansas anymore.

And when I read it, when it came out, it said blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And like Dorothy in the classic film, The Wizard of Oz, we're not in Kansas anymore. And it was just like, fuck off. Don't put my name at the bottom of that. I would not say that. I'm not talking to you don't put my name at the bottom of that I would not say that I'm not talking to you like you're an idiot you know I mean I'm talking to you directly across the table in my writing don't make me one of you you cunt and I mean Sutherland there

I talk across what started happening was that editorially the writing either talked down to the readership and I heard some horrible scorn directed towards punters and fans From people like Sutherland when we were backstage at festivals and stuff They either talked down to the to the readers or more likely kind of talked kind of Needy and pleadingly upwards to our readership like they were gods of good taste that we were happy to serve and we weren't going to threaten Their kind of ideas about what was good music. So you remember Al, you read out that letter from that racist guy basically, your doc mates. In Sutherland's era, we started kowtowing completely to that kind of attitude, that Oasis dominated, ladrock bullshit,

because we were all terrified of the commercial fact of Oasis that had happened to a certain extent without our permission. And in general, we just started generally thrashing around, desperately trying to appeal to an ever-dwindling readership, flailing around, you know, stickers, sex issues, you know? DJs on the cover, celebrities on the cover, new metal bands, always, always white blokes if it was musical. And it felt like our paper, Melody Maker, was now in the hands of non-Melody Maker people. And I can't really put it any different than that.

It was so grim working there. And when you were sent out of the office, because I was staffed till about 98 99 when I was sent out the office It was to interview like I don't kill a priest fine But at the London dungeon or cold chamber I had to take them to Hamleys at Christmas or what? ultrasound had to go to fucking Legoland, you know and It was all this Colossal real lack of trust I've said it before it's lack of trust between staff and editor. So I'll never forget a few things with Sutherland and

Whenever I've mentioned Sutherland Mark Sutherland who was the editor who killed the Melody Maker online Inevitably people come up saying actually is a really nice blow. I think you're out of order. No, fuck that We've got enough nice blokes. I judge people on what they've done. You know what I mean? I don't care if they're polite now, I judge people on what they've done and how they work. And I remember him, the lack of trust was unbelievable. Alan Jones, our former editor,

I'll never forget going to festivals, say Reading or Glastonbury. As Sarah mentioned, you know, you'd come back at like three in the morning, have to get the copy ready by seven, it'd be 3 grand print that costs every hour and stuff like that. Jonesy trusted us. We got to the site Thursday, he went to the bar and stayed there for three days and he trusted us to get the paper together. When Sutherland came, we'd go to festivals and he would spend the entire three days just stomping around the site looking for us, making sure that we were doing our job.

Cheeky little farmers. If he went at all. If he went at all. And I'll never forget being in one of the backstage signing tents. I was having a joint with Taylor and Taylor wasn't actually a make-or-ride at the time. I think we just had some weed so we were smoking it in this. Sutherland stumps at what the fuck you do it, you know It's gonna do this go do that. Fuck off man. And that was the year actually that melody maker writers We had to compare as it were the second stage at Reading, which is a big stage

Meaning we had to announce the bands now Now I was doing it on the Saturday, so I went up on the Friday to the second stage just to see what the other person was doing and it was one of Sutherland's fucking weebles that he brought up from fucking NME to kill the paper and I expected, you know, a vague, you know, just saying who the bands are but no this guy was, are we all having a good time? it was just, I couldn't do that. I couldn't whip the crowd into a frenzy. Yeah, about fucking embrace or something. I'm not going to do that. So the next morning when it's my turn to do the stint, I remember waking up in the Marriott Hotel in Reading, drunk still, about five to 11 in the morning, and just

thinking shit, I'm meant to be on the second stage at 11, you know, and that's the first band. So a drunken stumble through Reading to get to the festival site. Get backstage, all the bands are fucking hopping mad at me because they can't start without me saying so. And obviously for the rest of the day my comparing skills weren't great. I remember trying to do things just off stage, you know, just having the mic, just his voice from nowhere, but I wasn't allowed to do that. The only time I got a cheer was when I read the football results out because it was a Saturday afternoon. But it just was a different, different thing. And I think that year, it was either 98 98 or 99 that was the year I went to

Glastonbury and I say to this day I got spiked because I think I did but Makers Mark the whiskey had given us a crate of free bottles because of the promotional tie-in I guess with our name yeah so we were all necking bottles of that I was completely out of it and I was told anyway that I stood near the backstage tent in Glastonbury and refused to let bands in that I didn't like. Actual cultural gatekeeper that. That's it I was stood there apparently I said to Supergrass you're not fucking coming in your last album was fucking terrible and stuff like this and then it was... You're my hero!

Well then it all got massively messy I kind of remember getting back to the hotel and then all I remember is the next morning being woken up I was in my bathtub covered in mud and Sutherland was fucking stood over me because I was meant to be gossip editing, you know Sutherland was stood over me. It looked like a murder scene in that bathtub And he was like Neil, did you take your boots off last night? I was like, I still had them on I think because apparently I'd caused 3,000 pounds worth of damage to the carpet in this hotel by treading mud all over him And then it was like get to the site, we need a gossip column, you know. And that was the year he twigged, I think. Because I remember a week

after we had a meeting and he said, Neil, that entire gossip column at Glastonbury was just bullshit, you made the whole thing up. And I was like, yes, it's a gossip column. And pretty soon after that, I stopped being a gossip editor. I wasn't there the day that Melody Maker closed, and the day that all the chairs were put up on the tables and the computers were taken and this venerable institution of music publishing was just destroyed. I came back to a haunted office and to be honest I was glad to see the paper put out of its misery because it was yeah, it was just so grim there. But what was you know, I know how long ago this was, 20 odd years ago now, and I should probably not still bear a grudge, but fuck me, I really do still bear a grudge.

Oh yeah. I'm not going to forget, and I'm not going to forgive, because what was really galling was that these fuckers, all thesee. fuck us over, these agents from downstairs, and I still think they were agents from downstairs, sent up to destroy us, they all slipped back downstairs. They were fine. But we're fucked. And I think it was a cultural crime. And that might seem like an overstatement. I'm certainly not saying the maker could have carried on indefinitely with the very low sales figures that we had towards the end. But I think it was a deliberate corporate move

to let the enemy, the brand leader, win through and dominate. And I just wish we hadn't gone out like that. That pathetic withered state on our memory. In my stupider moments, I do wish I'd been made editor, because I would have taken that mag down in flames. I would have absolutely reversed that editorial stance of being so scared of black pop, and I would have reversed it. To me, what's heartbreak is that we never got a crack at South Solid Crew. We never got a crack at, you know, what was about to happen that we could have put

front and center. Better that than the kind of needy whimper that we went out on. And like Sarah says, we started kowtowing to the stupidest elements of our readership, and even they didn't like being patronized. We started kowtowing to the kind of idiots that when they open a magazine and a survey falls out, they fill it in. We started kowtowing to those fucking people.

So you know, I can't help but get fucking furious about it. Not because of what was destroyed necessarily, but the future possibility that was just destroyed in the process. We could have been so good and we were undermined from within. All the writing staff of that paper were undermined from within and destroyed. I will never fucking forgive Mark Sutherland and I don't care if these people are people's mates, Mark Beaumont, there's several others who, they were enemy people and they should have fucking stayed there. As for this podcast, he was obviously made for it. He had a great voice for podcasting, didn't he? Just in every way you can have a good

voice for podcasting. A lovely sounding voice for one thing, just so pleasingly softly spoken and so profane and could just rattle on indefinitely but eloquently. It was always such a pleasure to record with him because it was partly just a nice chat and a laugh. And it was also an education. And it was brilliant. I could just, you know, to just sit back and listen to him. He had such a particular way of articulating his feeling for music and bringing to bear this vast knowledge that he had with a very light touch. We could just yak on for hours and obviously we did, but anything that we were talking about we could have gone on for twice as long on almost anything. We had so much more to say about so many things.

There was always going to be one more tangent or one more story. And now there isn't. And I'm so sad about that. Yeah. It's shit, mate. He was extremely candid about his own experience. I mean, we've all shared some personal stuff, but he never held back. It was quite bracing when he talked about just say no. And he told everyone about drinking a whole bottle of gin as a young teenager, getting arrested by the British Transport Police and coming to and seeing his mother silhouetted in the cell door. He could really paint a

picture in that case in vomit. I mean, I would have to steel myself as I do to go up against him with my silly little opinions, but actually I didn't because he would allow for every angle on everything. But it was a great zing when we were in agreement and we could just go, yes, and that, yes, absolutely. I'm sure that in my time, I've written and said some things that were contra to his very strongly held notions as to how this stuff should be done. But he made space for stuff in that way and he didn't apply perfectionism to others. I would not say that he was entirely lacking in ego because we all have it, but he really didn't have the classic big male music journalist head.

I mean, he said he described himself as a cocky, arrogant cunt, but I think he had to be to an extent. He had no interest in being considered brilliant. What he wanted most was to turn people onto stuff and turn them against stuff and get them to do what he was doing. He wanted to be surrounded by people that he thought were great and people who could be great, that he could help to make great. It was really humbling to have earned his respect as a writer and also as a person because he would sometimes ask my advice and sometimes I

would give my advice whether he asked for it or not which is always a dicey thing to do with a pal and he would say, Oh, you're, you're my Jiminy cricket B, you're my conscience. Um, which I did preen about a little bit. Also, he once shared something that I wrote, not about music, about clearing out my dad's flat. And he said he was going to teach it to his students, which was the greatest compliment and his students must have loved him. He was, he was such a natural teacher. He was so encouraging and just intent on lifting other people up. And I felt that because I've never really lost that feeling of being the kind of last one in at the Maker and being the kid in that

way. And so I got a little glimmer of what it must be like to be a student of Neil Kukarney. Obviously I'm proud of so much of the work that we did on this podcast because he really did bring out the best in people and he brought out the best in me, I think. And I'm very grateful for that. So the following week seven days dropped one place to number three. The follow-up, Walking Away, got to number three in December of this year but by this time Melody Maker had published an issue with a Craig David lookalike, recreating the cover of Born to Do It on a toilet and the headline UK Garage my arse the alternative nation fights back. Fucking hell.

Shall we, shall we? Are we gonna? I've got it here, I've got it here. Let me begin. I'll open the account with the editor's letter from Mark Sutherland. For the first eight months of this year, the alternative nation was depressed. UK Garage and Pop Shite was ruling the charts. I'm Mark Sutherland, you cunt!

Our music was being pushed off airways and common room stereos across the land. But since the Carling Weekend, Reading and Leeds festivals, there's been a new wave of optimism. Fucking hell, man. We've nominated 50 ways in which we think the indie nation is fighting back. Were you aware of this before it happened? I don't remember. I just, I remember this general atmosphere of queasiness and uneasiness with this and people just with all of us kind of looking at each other with this kind of You know we were we were very embarrassed about it and we were you know

I'd most of the most of the writers just kind of I had no truck with it at all But yeah, I don't really remember I remember it coming out and I remember just having to talk to PRs and stuff about it and just going, yeah, I mean, I didn't feel like I should have known better at the time. But like I said, it is a life's work and I had led a relatively sheltered life, I suppose. And I didn't quite like I said, there was a queasiness about it. And, you know, you learn to pick up on these markers of like, that someone being being a dick that is a bad message this is a dark thing and you need to

Address it and you need to this is not something that should be happening and I kind of knew that but I hadn't quite it Sounds like it should be really obvious what it was but at the time it was just like is this is this okay? I'm not sure that it is. Okay. He does look quite pious and again he looks quite daft, he's taken himself very seriously and he's sort of got this beatific look on his face and he's kind of holding very gingerly onto his cans and it's quite an interesting image but in some ways it is ripe for the piss take. But the lavatorial thing is so kind of, there's just such a grossness about it, it's really tawdry. What it was supposed to be, how it was presented was quite a punk thing and like, you know, yeah, we're

doing something outrageous and shocking. But there was no room to do that at the Maker at this time in any way, and least of all in this way, it was just bollocks, you know. I'm just interested to hear that Sarah said she didn't know about it. This is a common thing of this period. We didn't know until Wednesday what the fuck was going to be on the cover. These decisions were quite often made by other people and this particular issue you're talking about now is the, without a shadow of a doubt, the most shameful copy of Melody Maker to ever come out. We might as well call it the way it is, it's fucking racist. I've been told three, four years before, oh no, black faces on the cover don't sell. Well, what do you do? We've got a black face and it's having the piss taken out of it, it's stuck

on a toilet seat, etc. So to me, you know, this was one of those things on a Wednesday morning, I saw it and I was just like, what the fuck is this? You know, the history of UK pop is mainly populated with white musicians listening to the most cutting edge black music. It's a given and here we are rejecting that. We are rejecting the multiracial for the monocultural. We're rejecting the musically futuristic in favor of the musically retrograde. It's absolutely fucking shameful and I can only conjecture that in some way it wasn't just down to a desire to match our readership's you know know, more slower members. It was a reflection of the musical and social prejudices of the people making those editorial

decisions. They weren't our fucking people. Those boneheads in our readership, what we should have done with Craig David, instead of taking the piss and basically saying, we hate black music, you've got to listen to white rock. Those boneheads in our readership, we should have stuck Craig David on the cover. We should have got a good writer to go out and meet him, write about it and him and the scene that he came from and give it an interesting strapline, an interesting

story and you put him on the cover and you fuck those people. Fuck those fucking people. I know it sounds reckless, but this to me was, it was one of the most shameful things that ever appeared in the, I remember a singles column in 1996, I think, quite early, by somebody that I used to work for who I don't know if I can mention, yeah, I can mention their name, Michael Bonner. And he wrote a singles column, he'd just fallen in love. And every singles review contained a declaration of love to his girlfriend. It was the most painfully embarrassing thing I have ever read in the Maker. You know, and I'm serious, it wasn't beautifully written.

It was like every single review would end up with, I love you, I love you. It was horrible. It was mortifying. And I thought that nothing could top that in terms of shame. But this issue and the list that's in there and the cover and everything about it, it's a disgrace. Looking through that issue, it reminds me of working on a Sega Mega Drive mag in the early 90s, where so much of the mag was devoted to hating on Nintendo and hating on Mario,

and going on about how brilliant Sonic was, and essentially creating arguments in the playground and giving our readership, who were mainly, you know, young teenage lads, ammunition to say, yeah, Sonic pisses on Mario. That's it. It's always a bad sign when, I mean, basically it's a marker of, that was the maker putting itself right into the bin. It's like, you know, because it's like, well, we don't accept, you know, if you're saying we're setting out our stall on the basis that we do not accept this and we don't accept you, then, you know, it's just like, well, okay, fine, we'll go somewhere else. What you're doing is you're sidelining yourself.

You're putting yourself into a position of irrelevance. Well, we didn't have the confidence in the readership that that argument, you know, I'm certainly not saying the Melody Maker should have been totally positive about UK Garage at all, but it should have battled for its space just like anything else with writers that advocated for it. Instead, the party line was handed down, you know. Much as the party line was handed down, we've got to be positive about Oasis. So invariably, where we end up is the Melody Maker closing, the NME doing things like 10 years later saying, you know, when Alex Turner makes some bullshit speech at the Brits, rock and roll is coming back. It's a fucking perennial. And we also end up with cunts like Noel Gallagher saying,

Jay-Z shouldn't be playing Glastonbury. This pervading fiction that, no, this is our music, you stay over there. And it's just hateful in every regard. Yeah. And I don't recall seeing covers of Mixmag or DJ with a Liam Gallagher lookalike wanking into a sock. You know? Yeah, yeah, because they're more important things to fucking do. And so did we. We should have been covering UK Garage without a doubt in that year, not talking about it

in this way. And it's totally, more importantly, totally big ignorant way about what was actually going on in the music. What kind of comeback did Melody Maker get from that? Fuck all, fuck all. Because the tone, this wasn't writing anymore, you know, what was going on in Melody, we were, we were writing words, don't get me wrong, and we were sending them through, but what you'd actually see in the mag, it was forensically kind of tested for its, for its playability with our supposed readership and inevitably actually most

of our real readership were leaving in droves at this point disgusted with what what the magazine had become are we gonna dip a hand into the the 50 ways the alternative nation is fighting back no fucking out out shall we Sarah this is this is hard work. I gotta tell ya Yeah, go on. Let's get it all out. Come on. The thing is with this though out. Yeah, it was probably Dreamed up in an afternoon by a few of the cunts Lazy sat around a table, but I actually thought when I think about this piece I actually think of Mark Sutherland wearing a massive dark cloak and pulling this out of some vat of

horror, a document that just seals the fucking horror of the age. Every single line of it is so badly written and so needy, it's just mortifying that this appeared under the Melody Maker name. I think starting off, you know, number four, Coldplay at number one, proving that nice guys can finish first. I mean, fuck me. Primal Screams, civil disobedience, revolution, revolution, Bobby G making politics sexy. Bobby Gillespie's never made anything sexy. It just gets fucking worse. Oh my god, sorry, I'm scrolling through it now.

Let's go straight to 23. Top loader on the road. Joe and the lads taking rock and roll chaos to the streets. Has there ever been like a top loader covers band called Bottom Feeder? That would be good. And all they play, but they just play Dancing in the Moon like ten times. Number 31. President Fred Durst. The undisputed king of new metal sneering charm conquering the world.

Oh God almighty man. Do you remember a time when President Fred Durst sounded like the most appalling thing ever? Not my president. Fucking old man. No, no, he'd be a fucking shoo-in next year. Not quite. Oh Jesus Christ, now you've said, oh my God Al, now you've said that, that's actually gonna happen isn't it? It's either gonna be him or it's gonna be the fire festival guy

or maybe both of them, maybe they'll take it in turns. Yeah. Number 32's interesting isn't it?ster music for free enough said oh yes Oh, but I bet that went down a treat didn't it with the fucking PRs Well well played mark I mean fucking and you'll notice as well the repeated use of the word enough Enough says and a repeated swearing as well And I know I'm in no position to criticize exactly but that no, but you know how to swear the thing is Swearing is a swearing is a swearing is a fucking art form. I can do it You can do it we all of us are fucking really good at it that man should not have it's like wash your mouth out

Okay, you know you you take that fucks out of your mouth number 40 new metal fashion that fucks out of your mouth. Number 40 new metal fashion subverting the gatecrash of styles for our own perverse means about time to you mean a fucking wallet on a chain. What does that mean about time to exclamation mark? I don't get that. That's a little dig at dance culture which also was bad and wrong. Look at number 34 moshing crowd surfing live chaos you don't get that at your local UK garage club but what you do what you know you what you do get a rock club is 48 blink 182 ripping the piss out of boy bands in their videos and he's right up after that hilarious fits cool guys brilliant

music he sounds fucking 50 odd I and yet he's trying absolutely to speak in a kid's language. I don't think this was done by committee. I think this was him of an afternoon summoning the spirit of Satan and just getting this out. It's a horrible document. Oh, it's not. No, you leave Satan out of this. We know that Satan has the best tunes. That's always been true. Satan would hold his horns in his hands at this. You know, we know that Satan has the best tunes. That's always been true. Satan would hold his horns in his hands at this. 42. XFM. It's getting better and better, but we're still keeping an eye on you. I bet they're worried.

This is it, right? It's not like you're being forced to listen to music you don't like by 2000. Yeah, yeah, yeah. There's loads of satellite stations, loads of radio stations, loads of record shops. It's like no one is forcing you to listen to Craig David. Ridiculous. You have to dig to a certain extent. When I actually did speak to Mark Sutherland, which was very briefly and not very often, you did kind of get a flavour for where he was coming from in a sense. He came, he made fanzines, you know, when he was a kid, Mark Sutherland.

He was a fanzine writer and he was very, very much fixated on the indie kind of C86 scene and that's where he's coming from. So where the rest of us in 87 were listening to Public Enemy, he was listening to Tallulah Gosh or whatever and he stayed there and that indie faith stays with him to this point but 100 reasons Brit Rock kicks back Pearl Jam start watching their backs ace I mean fucking hell man This is 50 reasons to stop reading Melody Maker David one thing about Neil that set him apart from a lot of music writers of his generation One thing about Neil that set him apart from a lot of music writers of his generation was that he still his sub stack. I mean, he was just tirelessly and voraciously reviewing new musics and really good musics. I mean, you know, like Turkish psych, Japanese singers, the latest ESOP rock album and stuff that I'd never really even think about trying to sort of source. I found

him a real kind of lifeline in that respect. He wrote for The Wire and he was constantly sort of celebrating the kind of the vanguard of stuff and music from all backgrounds, ethnicities, etc. etc. Not just hip hop. But the thing about Neil, one of the great things is that his favourite band was the Rolling Stones. He loved white rock music, he loved heavy metal, he saw no reason not to. That was the great thing. He felt that he should be included in part of the discourse and the fandom around things like the Stones and Thin Lizzy. He loved his metal. He did. He would have made a really, really strong argument and a beautiful argument. That's a great thing that when Neil wrote, he really matched, as it were, the materiality

of the sound of the things he was talking about. He really tried to sort of articulate the kind of the sort of the buzz, the aliveness, the connection that you get as a fan of music, as a consumer of music, as a lover of music, rather than simply attempt to describe what was kind of going on in the songs or the lyrics or whatever, or give it that kind of dry historical perspective. But Neil, you know, the account was all about that kind of vital relationship between the listener and especially on the listener's part and the music. I think that even you, David, will agree that Neil was a true rock expert and the last thing the two of us ever did with him was a front to back evisceration of the 1980 short film

Biceps of Steel for our Patreon only strand, hit the fucking play button. So here's a Clipper Neil strapping on his critical studded gauntlets and wading into Samson. Shucks, if I were to ask you to give me a word cloud of the crucial elements of a metal video from 1980, what's springing to mind? Well, actually, I mean, to be honest, back in... No, just words, David. elements of a metal video from 1980. What's springing to mind? Well actually I

mean to be honest back... No just words David. Words okay. Throng, sweaties, plank wankery, that's a hyphenated expression. That's okay that counts. Let me help let's see if you can add two. So, hair, rocking, rolling, childish masculinity, motorbikes or American cars, fire, hard loving women, machinery, danger, widling. Yeah, yeah, no absolutely, can't disagree with any of that. Machinery. Danger. Widling. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, no, absolutely. Can't disagree with any of that. Alpha male mustaches. The bands and fans of the Wobboham, culturally, they're a mess of things that they're into. So, you know, you can trace the musical things that go into it.

But ultimately, when it comes to making videos, they're like a kid who's just been asked by Mike Reed what they're into on run around. And instead of saying football and pop music, it is these things. It's motorbikes, it's horror, it's kung fu movies, it's evil women. So beyond the kind of musical things that feed into the Wobham videos, heavy rock and Prague and the glam of the past past you just get this fucking mess of Nonsense that these people are into glorious mess. It has to be said. Yeah, exactly It's as if the director of this video just you know sat the band down said, you know

What are you in? Yeah, and and I've come up with these kind of answers as drawings Like stick men with machine guns and fire and collapsing buildings. Indeed, indeed and spiritually you know there's a really important thing with all the Wobboham videos that I do need to point out. The Wobboham is for me the coziest type of metal. In as much as later metal in the 80s will get metal that says often you know you are scared of us and you're right to be scared of us because we're suicidal, we're homicidal or into death or Satan or-

Genocidal. Indeed, indeed. Whereas Nawabahum is much cozier than that. It's underlying message is, hey, you hate us because of the way we dress and the music we listen to, but all we want is to have a rocking good time. And that's actually a very conventional message, which comes across a lot of metal videos in this period, no matter how nutty they get. I think you have to look at what's feeding into the squalid minds and the nasty smelly

bedenim groins of the Wobboham fans and bands, because that's what's going to turn up in any video. On the one hand, there's always going to be things we've seen in rock videos before. They do fall into a tradition. But on the other hand, well, there's a gauntlet of studs and the devil's horns and things that haven't really been seen in rock or pop videos before, you know, glams, what they all grew up on. So clothes are going to be colorful or they're going to be black. Heavy rock and prog is what they then grew into. So it will usually comprise some elements of performance, um, with wiggling, plank,

wankery, exaggerated facial expressions of giving it some fucking jip. But beyond that, yeah, it's just this free swim of utter nonsense. Yes. Where the hell have you been? There's 2,000 headbangers in here. Ow! We learn very quickly that the band's parsimonious attitude extends to the Road Crew because there's only one of them. But despite the fact that he has that wiry build so redolent of the Road Crew, he's fucking rock. Entering the venue with two massive martial amps on his head and putting the

entire set together himself including a massive steel cage which ensnears the drummer and his kit. I mean he's essentially desperate Dan isn't he? Yeah. He's got a black vest on, red PVC Nolan sister trousers, a bad wig and a Jason King mustache. Oh yeah, I mean they definitely, yeah, just like Jason King's kind of, you know, full on hard times, definitely. This has just occurred to me, but what was that hippie character in Porridge? Oh, Dylan. Yes, he looks like Dylan, yes.

He does. King of the Rochdale hippies, if you will. That's it. And he also, I mean obviously, I doubt the makers of Spinal Tops saw this video, but my god, there's a lot of Derek Smalls in this about. Yes, there is. Thank god, yeah. Super Red as well.

And he starts hefting these amps into the rainbow, and he's clearly a prodigious Samson-like strength because he puts a Marshall stack on his head to carry it in. Now, as someone who has loaded in and out of many shows the idea of walking into most venues with an amp on your actual head it would be a health and safety no no. He didn't have time for his health and safety bollocks then Neil. Better times. Those fake cabs by the way were polystyrene. No, I'm not listening. No, no. I'm sorry to spoil the magic. It's all smoke and mirrors man. I am pissing on your parade. But Bruce Dickinson has confirmed that they were polystyrene. Obviously his display of raw power and the ability to rig up a drum

kit does not go unnoticed in the venue because as he walks in with the amps he's immediately hassled by a gang of five blue-haired belching bouncers in orange jumpsuits who look to me like the denizens of a very Tolkien-esque Guantanamo bay. There's a lot of anti-bouncer sentiment around at the time. I'm thinking of the intro to Monkey Man on the live version on the flipper Too Much Too Young. Yes, exactly right. intro to Monkey Man on the live version on the flipper too much too young yeah yes exactly where I think it's Terry or is I think it might be Neville he dedicates that song to yeah it's Neville to the bouncers so the band play on and the kids possibly recruited from the heavy metal sound house go mental as Samson the roadie

looks on as he sips from his rider which is a veritable selection box of beer cans fucking hell. Didn't they have six packs in fucking Britain in the 80s? I can definitely see a can of McEwen's export. Right yeah that's the only one I recognise. I'm pretty sure that there's a can of Skoll, there's a can of Special Brew and I think there's a can of Long Life. The beer specifically brewed for the can, let us not forget. And fuck it, I'm going out on a limb. I'm willing to hazard a guess that there's going to be a tin of Breaker, a can of Arctic Light and maybe even Hemling. And yeah, he's just tucking into his beer, he's nodding his head, he's having

a right old time. Job's done, time to savor the fruits of his labour but oh dear, it's 1980 let's remember and the kids have been whipped up into a head shaking, air punching frenzy and that is pissing off the bouncer's no end. When two of them break through the wall of troll meat to get up the front, a bouncer gets a headlock on them and does some sort of troll meat to get up the front. A bouncer gets a headlock on them and does some sort of wrestling move, presumably breaking their necks and Samson the Roady shakes a fist of righteous anger. He's fuming isn't he? He's absolutely fuming. The kids just want to rock out.

That's it, the kids want to rock. Yeah, the bouncers are like Sonny Barger at Altamont or something. Yes, he really is. And then another lad gets up the front to commune with his metal gods and gets dragged back, which makes Samson the roadie crush his empty can of skull. Another youth gets punched in the face and the can of special brew is reduced to a crumpled pellet, and the final straw occurs when yet another leg gets up the front brandishing a plywood v-neck guitar and a bald bouncer troll rips his out of his

hand and smashes it against the lip of the stage. The bastard. We can look at this can crushing and scoff with his differing facial expressions of rage but yeah let us not forget that the cans of the Aventers, that were a fox-ite sturdier than they are today. It wouldn't be until the mid-80s that you'd risk crushing an empty can of topdeck on the bus in order to impress girls. There's a seed in Jaws, isn't there? There's nowhere where he crushes a can and it's considered like almost ripping a telephone directory in half. Yeah, exactly, yeah. I think it would have been better if he'd crushed a full open what in his party seven

No matter The Baldy bouncer starts getting all Stone Island II with his taunting and all that's all he can stands and he can't stand So he absolutely pegs it right up the stage Leaps off and launches into an intense session of roadie food. Oh God, yeah. He absolutely steams in and if captions could be added I would have just added Yeroo to this bit because he barely piles them up very much in a Saturday afternoon wrestling introduced by Dicky Davis kind of way.

Absolutely, I mean I wonder if Brian Glover had been available, he could have sat nicely up very much in a Saturday afternoon wrestling introduced by Dickie Davis kind of way. Absolutely. I mean, I wonder if Brian Glover had been available. He could have sat nicely in one of these bounces. I don't think Jackie Chan was involved in the choreography of this, do you? It's just a proper bundle, isn't it? It's like when you're at school and Kung Fu was on the previous night on teller. So kids are just throw themselves now with really bad American accents Yeah, it's somewhat. What's the word lumbering and yeah kung-flap as with everything Yeah, I mean wouldn't it be awful if any element of this video is in any way professional. It's really good that it's this shit

So anyway the bounces all get biffed and they're all left up piled on the front of the stage and they just look like this really lumpy bean bag of defeat. And Samson the Roadie grabs two of them round the neck and starts making them head bang and the kids raise their cardboard guitars in triumph. And as we fade out at the end of the song, it's pretty obvious to me that rock has won the day once again, don't you think? Oh yeah, absolutely. They just want to rock out and have a good time, man, leave them alone. But little do we know, yeah? We're only halfway through this madness.

Yeah, obviously you've listened to loads of old chart musics of late going through this. Gotcha. You said you found it really hard, didn't you? Oh yeah, yeah. I mean at first, after he died, I thought I've got to listen to Neil as soon as possible because if I don't, I'll have a complex about it. And I did the live show and I put that out on Patreon and it did help, but doing this, I've had to listen to practically everything he did to pick out the highlights or pick

out a selection of them. had to listen to practically everything he did to pick out the highlights or pick out a selection of them and his laugh has just been ringing through my head like fucking Timothy Claypole in Rent a Ghost. It's difficult because I've got to go through the process again of realising that he's not around anymore after having him in my head non-stop. So yeah, it's been quite a thing. I thought that it helped because I very seldom replay old Sharp music episodes because it kind of feels a bit like wanking over a picture of yourself. You know what I mean? I don't want to do it. But since Neil died, I listened back to a couple of old ones with Neil on it. And I was worried that it was going to be really hard and upsetting, or just spooky and unpleasant. And it wasn't like that at all. For me, it seems really natural and normal to be listening to this,

completely separate to anything else, which is correct because chart music exists outside time to some extent, as well as being a bunch of smart arses talking smack about Dave Lee Travis. It is a people's history of one especially significant period in low culture. So essentially nothing has changed about those old episodes. They still do everything that they did before and they still function just as they should. And it's not like listening to, you know, in utero or double fantasy, you know, it's a lot better than listening to double fantasy.

But to me, what I'm saying is there's no dark cloud over that stuff. I didn't find that the work is altered or spoiled by some unintended poignancy. You know, it is exactly what it was, except for the fact that we've all lost a friend, but it's still there. Well, that's the thing about podcasting, isn't it? You know, no matter what the subject is, or however you want to put yourself over if you do it for long enough you end up dropping the breadcrumbs of your life yeah yeah I mean all I was expecting from chart music was that we'd you know sit down and wang on about pop music for

a couple of hours yeah but it's turned out to be an opportunity to say hey this amazing time happened and we were there and Neil grabbed that with both hands and his arms and his legs and his feet. When this is done I'm gonna put all of Neil's episodes on USB sticks and give them to his daughters and say look you may not be ready to listen to this at the moment or ever but here's your dad telling things from his life story that you might not know about. I mean anyone would want that wouldn't they? Especially if your dad's as eloquent as that. Yeah.

I think that if you asked everyone involved with chart music who's your favourite one to be paired with? Who do you like working with the best? I think everyone would have said Neil. Yeah. Partly just because he's so likeable, which is not a common trait among music writers. Even those of us who aren't just born wankers tend to have issues of one kind or another. Which never seems to be the case with Neil, who was able to hold down proper work and be a decent family man at the same time

as having all this stuff in his head which isn't common and partly because with his generous laughter he was the Barry crier of chart music yes but also because he'd always worked with you he knew when to chip in and he knew when to let you go on and he had good timing which is underrated skill as anyone who's sat through the awkward pauses and the shuffling silences of lesser podcasts will know. But yeah, honestly he's just someone who was almost impossible not to like and not to feel the warmth of his presence. If you don't mind I'm going to be a selfish bastard now and I'm gonna ram in what might well be my favourite clip on chart music. It's the time that I introduce Neil and Taylor

to the visionary genius of Dave Lee Travis. Click click oops. Let us comment once more upon Dave Lee Travis Renaissance man because I have in my possession right here a book that he put together in 1985 I'm gonna send you the cover right now and I want you to open it and I want you to say what you see a bit of a star media women their fine points and phobias as photographed by Dave Lee Travis. Dave Lee Travis's photography book everyone. A bit of a star put out in 1985. Describe the cover to me. Well Dave is there looking at the camera with an undone bow tie, white, like he's at the end of a particularly long night. Brian Roll-On Roll-Off Ferry, if you will.

Looking insufferably smug as usual, under the legend a bit of a star in pink, kind of neon-y writing. Yeah, and this is Dave in Golden Oldie Picture Show era, Travis, isn't it? With that sort of almost like mini afro hair with the massive white patch at the front it's essentially a compilation of his photography involving famous women and

the things that they like about themselves and the things that they're scared of I'm gonna pass on a selection now. So here's the first one. Okay. Right, that appears to be, is that, who, is that Lindsay DePaul? Who is that? Lindsay DePaul. What, being tortured by Neil Young?

Yes. On some kind of medieval wrap, stretching wrap. Yes. With hay on the floor. And immediately the concept of this book, which is already worrying, David Lee Travis photographs basically women that he likes and talks to them about what they're scared of, becomes... Yes, David Lee Travis usually. Oh, but I didn't realise it was actually going to be this horrifying inside that looks like a wax work from the Yorvik Vikings

Yes, that is a Lindsay DePaul big like dressed in a sort of sexy medieval way serving way yeah being Torched on the rack with a massive grin by this bloke who looks like Neil Young circa 1973. This is what David Travis got his rocks off to. And it's not even styled like a fetish shoot or something. It really does just look like a fractured dream that he had. Yeah, including what appears to be a bucket full of human feces in the corner what the fuck is going on here yeah yeah okay next picture right what we have here is Floella Benjamin in a blue dress and her blue headbands and her blue

high heels on the floor next to a bin that she's in a dustbin she's in a dustbin yeah a really chatty dustbin as well isn't it very chatty dustbin with what appears to be mold and mildew all over the lid yeah a lot of the time you see dust bins in shots like this so they've clearly just been bought. They're like what you would win if you chose Dusty Bin, like a brand new dust bin. Now this has been used for Dave Lee Travis's garden waste. Yeah, so essentially what's happened is that all these celebrities have told Dave Lee Travis what they like most about themselves, what they dislike most about themselves and what their phobias are. And then he goes off and works out a shoot. Lindsay De Paul said she doesn't like her height, so Travis has decided to torture her. And in this case,

Loyola Benjamin told him that she doesn't like her legs. So Travis has put her in a dustbin. This is a sense of be right for a public audience and he's seen this concept through but it's clearly just for his own masturbatory purposes it's a oh dear oh dear I want to see more but I don't want to see more. Well take to my grave the image of Dave Lee Travis masturbating over a picture of Floella Benjamin in a dustbin. Let's look at another one. Say what you see. I believe this is Lisa Goddard.

Yes it is. Mrs Stardust. All wrapped up in sort of grey wrapping paper, the with string. Oh dear idea. This is a few of David Lee Travis's favorite things Like a giant smiley lady parcel it I'm not sure it's paper I think it might be some sort of tarpaulin in which case like her fear is what being a victim to a particularly fastidious murderer. What's her fear? I've got to know. Well, this is another of the ideas which came to me the moment I spoke to her.

The first thing Lisa said to me was that the only things she liked were her face and her feet. Right. Jesus. This is too close. A little walk around what's actually inside, behind that beard, behind that grin. Oh God, this is fucking grisly. Yeah, you can imagine the steam coming out of his ears. Here's another one. Dear Lord. Christ Almighty. Right, Who is that? I don't know who that is. It's Georgina Hale who was Budgie's Mrs and was in the boyfriend as well. Who appears to be, yeah, I mean, I can't describe that image, I'm sorry. Well, she's resting her head, she's wearing a sort of negligee, like a night time negligee. Very Sun Naughty Knickers week.

Rest of her, a very scrubbed looking head on a pillow being held by a giant man in a gorilla suit who's also copping a feel of her arse. Yes, yes. She likes the comfort of being protected, which is why I opted for a King Kong Fei-Rei type of shot. Yeah, because King Kong already protectedae-Rae type of shot. Yeah because King Kong already protected Fae-Rae didn't it as well? And one more we've gone and saved the best to last.

Oh god Jesus. Right so what we've got here is as far far as I can tell, is that Kim Wilde? Yes. That's Kim Wilde with a kind of face mask on, a chain coming from it. She appears to be chained to a policeman who's got a far too big a beard and we act like she's a very American policeman. That's not him is it? No, it's not try. Well, we don't know It's clearly a an avatar of Dave Lee travel You know, this is clearly DLT placing himself in the fantasy. Yes

With a firm hand on his baton you'll notice. Yeah, gripping his baton in a slightly suggestive way. With his other hand made into a fist holding the chain. Which goes to Kim Wilde's fetish eye mask. So he's also dressed from head to toe in black PVC. Nothing wrong with that. Wow, deeply disturbing. I was reading recently about the mineshaft club you know that gave the village people its look. They're in incredibly strict dress codes about uniforms etc. This photograph looks

like that the fascinating thing about the mineshaft club is that they had a scat room that only lasted six months before it proved quote-unquote unmanageable. These people are possibly on their way. Jesus. Can I stop looking at this now? In his notes, Travis says that Kim Wild likes her eyes, hence the over-the-top protection. Oh. How did he get this shit off the ground and did these people get paid for this? Did they get a fee? They better have done. It was done in association with Kodak and it was £8.95. That's a lot of money back then.

And what would you do with this book once you'd looked at all the photos? Oh, I want to look at that photo again of Floella Benjamin in a bin. Yes. Simon, it's no exaggeration to say that Neil got his flowers in the wake of his death. Yeah. I mean, if we'd have pulled him aside when we last met in Birmingham and said, look mate, when you go, there's not only going to be a massive outpouring of affection on social media, but your beloved Coventry City is going to put your picture up on their big screen.

You're going to be bigged up by Sparks and Chuck fucking D is going to draw a portrait of you. Oh my god, yeah. He'd have been well made up with that, wouldn't he? Yeah, I mean, one kind of silver lining, I suppose, of his terrible premature passing was just the outpouring of love from all kinds of sources, including Chuck D and Sparks and Coventry City Football Club. And just on the Davis funeral, you know, a full house in that incredible building. I'd never been to Coventry Cathedral before. It's an absolute work of modern art. If only I'd know it was there,

or it was that good. I would have made the effort to go to Coventry and to hang out with Neil and to see the cathedral before now. I could certainly see why he stayed and why he loved it there, not just from the cathedral, but from the people that we met on the day, from his bandmates and his family and his friends. He just had this this great network around him and why would you need the London Music Bass if you had that? Why would you need it? Fuck it. After he crawled from the wreckage of Melody Maker, Neil branched right out becoming possibly the only music writer of his time with the critical range to contribute to mags like Metal Hammer and Karang and the likes of DJ Mag and electronic music to name but a few. He wrote the books Eastern Spring, A Second Gen Memoir,

The Periodic Table of Hip Hop and Hip Hop Bring the Noise. He played with the Coventry band the Moonbears who put out the LPs Let's Get Nice with the Moonbears in 2015 and Four Sides for Red, a tribute to his late wife Sam, in 2022. And like Simon, he went into teaching because Neil was a born educator. Go on YouTube and look at his video Two Tone in Five Hoods, which meant that both of them were ideally placed to discuss the shameful behaviour of an American drama teacher called Mr. Reynolds. Laura, Amanda's intrigued with Billy Boy. Billy Boy, ask Amanda for a date. Hey, Amanda, I've just come out of prison.

Do you want to see him too? You never forget your drama training, do you? Fucking old chaps, where do we start with this song or video? Well, it's difficult disentangling the two. In a sense, this is one of those songs that's both made and destroyed by the video. It's difficult now to imagine the song in isolation from the video. Even before I started making notes for Charm Music and I realized Hello by Lionel Richie was on this, I was thinking about my

favourite line from the song, which is actually, it's Mr. Reynolds, there's something going on in the sculpture class, I think you should check it out. That's like my favourite line. And that's what was stuck in my head. Let's try and get the song out of the way because you're not because it's cat shit, because you know, if you're going to have to be made to listen to an 80s ballad, it might as well be this one. There's a lot worse knocking round, don't you think? In terms of the kind of song it is, which I was never into anyway, these kind of big ballads, but it's an effective song. Yeah. Yeah. It's quite a dark melodramatic song about obsession. Yeah. So obviously, you know, before watching this, I thought, right, stop the video and remind yourself of the record

and try and listen to it in isolation. And of course, you know, it's a brooding, obsessive, melodramatic, haunted, dark and tragic record. But of course, I keep seeing the clay head. The record itself has no narrative. It's a kind of trapped moment of longing, very akin lyrically to the kind of small cramped voyeuristic space inhabited by the protagonist of something like Just My Imagination. But the video gives it, yeah, this mini episode of fame feel that even as a kid, I could see and laugh at as sort of immensely, immensely kitschy. Oh yeah. I mean, this was kitschy right from day one, wasn't it? Oh, without a doubt.

And if you're our age, you don't even have to hear the fucking song. We could all gather together and someone could just hold up a photo of the bust of Lionel Richie. Everyone could just look at it for five minutes and go, oh yeah. Absolutely. My problem with this song was the chords, right? I didn't understand them. It has anything up to 11 chords in it, depending on which transcription you believe. Good lord. Including E suspended fourth, A minor ninth and F major seventh.

The chorus features a Neapolitan chord B flat and for those who don't know a Neapolitan chord is a chord made from chocolate, strawberry and vanilla juice. That's too many chords and the first dozen times you hear it you can't even pick out a melody because it's all so muted. It progresses in sad, colored, mocking shadows, to quote Paul Weller. What it's like, imagine you're in a garden, right? And there's a washing line with a pale gray bed sheet hanging off it. And you run towards that bed sheet and your face goes into it.

And as you push through it, there's another washing line and your face goes into it and as you push through it there's another washing line and your face hits another pale grey bed sheet and then another and another and you end up looking like René Magritte's The Lovers and that kind of progression it owes more to the European classical tradition than to any American R&B tradition or at least it owes something to musical theatre I think to Sondheim or to Hamlish. That bit where it's, are you somewhere feeling lonely or is someone loving you? That melodic passage, that tentative way it climbs up the scale, two steps forward, one step back.

Do you know what I mean? I mean, I think, look, for Lionel, I think ever since 1978, he'd been attempting to rewrite Three Times a Lady at some point. And you know, this in an era of kind of things like endless love is probably his most successful attempt. The thing is with most of those soul ballads, they rely on the singer singing to the listener directly and they tend to be performance vids. But this video is so totally different. It dramatizes and colonizes the song completely. So the video

becomes everything and it's still I mean, let's face it This is a massive safeguarding issue turned into a video. Oh god, you know It's still creepy as fuck from the moment. He starts with the line. I've been alone with you inside my mind onwards It's it's lovers. Yeah massively unprofessional safeguarding issue. It's stalking ultimately. Yeah, where is American Ofsted? Exactly. So the video then. The basic, I mean I don't even know why I'm bothering to explain it to anyone because anyone listening to chart music knows it shot for shot.

First of all, I mean making fun of this video is shooting fish in a bag, it's stealing candy from a baby, it's kicking a stick away from a cripple, it's a piece of piss is what I'm saying. It's almost hack to do it, do you know what I mean? But we've got to do it, we've got to do it haven't we? Because it is objectively fucking hilarious. We didn't shy away from Renny and Renata, we're not going to shy away from this man. Exactly. So we find out that Lionel's a drama teacher at some sort of fame type school for the arts. Yeah, the sort of American school that as scabby British cunts could only gulp out in jealous awe.

It's very breakfast club, isn't it? We don't see him straddling a chair, but we know he is a chair straddler because he's doing that on the cover of Can't Slow Down. He is, yeah. Yeah, he is, of course. He gets two of the class to improvise a scene. Yeah, listen up everybody, Tony. Billy Boy's been in prison for 25 years, he's only been out for three days. Last time you were free, man, the Brooklyn Dodgers were still the Brooklyn Dodgers and Eisenhower was your president. Doesn't say the obvious first thing which was, why were you in prison for 20 years then, or you were a murderer? And he's got that cool energy, yeah yeah that kind of cool trendy teacher energy yeah and a nice big flowing coat that with the sleeves rolled up as well

man of course yeah yeah it's almost a success coat the paid drama teachers are decent whack in america don't they i'm missing a trick teaching in london yeah so then tells a student called laura that she has to play billy boy love interest. Of course, fans of A Clockwork Orange would be expecting Billy Boy to basically look like Zodiac Mind Warp. But... How are thou thou globbybockler cheap stinking chip oil? Come and get one in the yarrbles if you have any yarrbles. You unigelly thou.

Yeah right. That'll be wise if you've been in prison for 25 years. Then they start improvising and while they're improvising, Lionel starts fucking singing. Like he's not in the room and they can't hear. And that's only the first of so many weird moments. Right, let's clear this up right now. So both of you are further education teachers, aren't you? Yeah, higher education teachers.

Oh, higher education teachers. Sorry, sorry sir. So by the law of averages, one or two of your students must be right little cunts. Oh yeah, yeah. They give you chelp all the time. They don't respect your authority. They refuse to conform. Yeah.

Have you not considered starting a lecture and then just drifting off to the side and just behind them while they're doing the work or whatever And just starting to go I've been alone with you inside my mind I am thinking of it now yeah man I'd shut the cunt's off I know I use that I've got a right cunt in a seminar That's worth a thousand ball rubbers to the edge surely So he starts singing and then just before the first chorus we get the big reveal that she's blind and this is where shit gets controversial obviously

because the actress is not blind. She was 26 year old Laura Carrington who went on to play Dr. Simone Ravel Hardy on General Hospital and made history as part of TV's first black and white interracial couple by the way. Oh. And of course she was fully cited and you wouldn't do that now i don't know the american foundation for the blind have campaigned on this sort of thing and obviously cinema history is littered with examples of cited actors playing blind characters so you've got everything from al Pacino in Scent of a Woman to Stephen Lang in that horror film Don't Breathe. But it's been compared to Blackface and you can see the point because

basically what it comes down to is if blind actors can't get blind roles because they're all being done by sighted actors, what roles are they going to get? Yeah, no fair do's. And that choice would have been made by Bob Giraldy the director. I wouldn't have given it a second thought well exactly but as you mentioned he previously directed Michael Jackson's beat it and he was handpicked for that job after Directing an advert where an elderly blind couple throw a block right right so the warning signs were there He was obsessed with blinding. I mean, he later directed a Stevie Wonder video. What you should have done there, right,

was get Stevie to play a fully sighted person, just to fuck with everyone, right? But the thing is, Lord Harrington and Hello isn't even the maddest casting choice that Giraldi made. He directed, as you mentioned, Pat Benatar's Lovers of Battlefield, where Benatar plays a troubled teenager who fights with her parents

and runs away from home. Benatar was 13 at the time. Oh God. Anyway, yeah, so we see Laura wandering around the corridors, having lunch, doing some ballet and importantly doing some clay modeling. But then Lionel phones her up and this is where Lionel really oversteps the mark. We see her reading Braille in bed. And he calls her and he doesn't say anything at first. Like a heavy breather. Like a heavy breather, the big old fucking freak. Then he starts singing at her, right?

And either way, silent or singing, I'm calling the police at that point. Yeah, yeah, too bloody right. She's well happy though, isn't she? No, she's happy about it. That's the fatal moment, you know her response at that point is key It's the emotional hinge of the video in a way and the fact that she smiles at this dirty old man ringing her Oh, Lionel Rich is nice man. He's a teacher who's in a position of responsibility The thing is Giraldy, just to point out,

he doesn't seem like the most sensitive person, let's put it that way. I read something where Lionel had actually said to him, firstly, that the story about a blind woman had no connection to the song, and Giraldi just replied, you're not creating the story I am. Yes.

But the one I really liked was that Giraldi added that Lionel didn't think that the bus looked like him. Yes! Until Guraldi pointed out that the girl making it was supposed to be blind. That's a fair point. That is a fair point. Is it a fair point?

Well, not the most sensitive director I don't think. But the thing is, like you say, there are huge ethical dimensions to this. I mean, I'm a teacher, I'm a teacher, Neil's a teacher. We all know that dating your students is a no-go area. It's a line you do not cross. Even if it's legal, it's unethical. It's a conflict of interest. There was a girl at my uni who was shagging

one of the French lecturers at UCL, and we all knew that's why she got A grades. It was a massive scandal. So basically Mr. Reynolds is getting the sack if he pursues this any further, isn't he? But yeah, then a guy comes into Lion's classroom and says the immortal line, Mr. Reynolds, there's something going on in sculpture class, I think you should check it out. And that's when... He's thinking there's going to be a clay fight going on or something.

You wouldn't, man. But that's when we find out that Laura Carrington is part of an elite triumvirate. There's Emmanuel Santos, there's Cecilia Jiminez and there's Laura Carrington, right? Yeah. Emmanuel Santos is the sculptor who created the bust of Cristiano Ronaldo for Madeira Airport when it was renamed Cristiano Ronaldo International Airport, which was so bad that it became a worldwide meme and was taken away and put in storage. And Santos responded to criticism by saying, even Jesus did not please everyone. And Cecilia Jiminez is the amateur painter who restored the Ekehomo Fresco of Jesus in a church in Zaragoza in Spain and made him look like a monkey.

And then you've got Laura Carrington who somehow, somehow made Lionel Richie look even more chinny and prognatic than he already is. You know? And I've often wondered. It's very good though. I think Lionel wanted him to look a bit more like Jimi Hendrix. Well he probably wanted it to be a flattering version, yeah. Because apparently he was a bit obsessed, apparently he'd go to people and go, don't

you think I'll look like Jimi Hendrix a bit? Oh my god. Look, I think it looks faintly Neanderthal, doesn't it? I'm not saying it's racist. Like my passport photo is so terrory it's racist this isn't quite that bad but yeah what a moment though what a moment yeah I've often wondered because you know it is notoriously bad video I've wondered how it affected everybody involved in it and I've often wondered whether Lionel is haunted or scarred by

hello. Apparently the phrase hello isn't me you're looking for follows him everywhere. Even Prince Charles said it to him apparently. Oh my god. But he's got a sense of humor about it. He's, uh, I mean maybe he's protesting too much, you know what I mean? Like people do sometimes, they kind of own it, but he's, he's sung it on helium on German TV to like, you know, like to subtract credibility from the love song. Like like Steve Kugin's IRA spokesperson on the day. Hello, it's a legitimate love song. And and he's done it on tonight with Jimmy Fallon with his actual head on a wooden plinth while Fallon sings it to him. Does that head still exist?

That's the question. I'm coming to that. And Lionel's even reenacted it on a Doritos advert with Chance the Rapper where he remoulds the clay head as a sort of hybrid of himself and Chance with a baseball hat. So you could even say Lionel's gone beyond having a sense of humour about it. He's now fucking milky, to be honest. But yeah, I wondered if it affected his co-star or the director in their later life. After the video came out, apparently Laura Carrington went to quite a few Lionel Richie

concerts in various cities and people would recognise her and treat her as if she was really blind. Oh no! Which I kind of... I suppose is understandable really. And yeah, as for Geraldi, despite making what was voted by viewers of The Box as the worst video ever made, Bob Geraldi did have a, you know, he's had a fairly successful career, he's directed a few films. One of the National Lampoon franchise was by him and a highly acclaimed independent film

called Dinner Rush. But he runs loads of restaurants now in New York. And I did wonder if you get your dinner free if you can sculpt your mashed potato into a convincing facsimile of Lionel Richie's head. You know, like in Close Encounters, but Lionel instead of a mountain. But yeah, apparently straight after the video wrapped, Lionel destroyed the head because he hated it. Oh!

Yeah, yeah. And of course, it would be priceless now. It would just be the ultimate piece of rock memorabilia. Oh, God, yeah. The only missed trick here, I guess, is wouldn't it have been wonderful if in a sort of Ray Harry Alston style moment the head had started singing Fucking awesome like the video for repeat I Just want to restate that everything Neil wrote came from love, this love of music.

I would urge people to go to the quietest, find anything he wrote about T-Rex, that's what I'd say, and about what Mark Bolan's music does to people, that magic, that alchemy, because Neil really captures that experience of having your head set on fire by pop, you know. And from a selfish point of view, and I mean selfish on behalf of all of us really, I feel outraged that we're all deprived of reading or hearing what he was gonna do next. Because he wasn't a fading force.

He was at the peak of his fucking powers. But his legacy will live on if that's not too corny a thing to say. There's so many things I end up saying about Neil that he would have cringed at. Yeah. Tough shit Neil was saying it anyway. Yeah. People are going to be reading Neil Keckani's work for years and being inspired by it. He was one of the all-time greats and I just love him. The last time I saw him was, as I said, was at the live podcast in London.

I saw him beforehand when he was having a little wobble, only a little one though. And then he got out there. Of course he looks so relaxed and it's just kind of, you would never know. And, you know, we were all at the pub afterwards doing the post show thing and talking to lots of people. So I didn't get to, I didn't get to have a big chat with him, but I observed him having such a great time with such gusto. He went to the pub and it stayed went at. He said that he usually finds it very difficult to accept compliments. He'd said this before and I said,

oh, the way that I do it is, I find, aw shucks, is a very useful phrase in this way. He struggled with it as people do. And he said, tonight, I'm just going to bask in it. He just absolutely stood there and allowed the adoration to wash over him. And he was very, very happy. And quite late on in the night, maybe when I was leaving actually, he really wanted to emphasise how good it was to see me. And he insisted, no, Sarah, it is so good to see you. With such intensity and total sincerity, with a little bit of throw away just around the edges. But he made it easy to absorb that sentiment without it being too much. He said, I know Sarah, it's so good, so good to see you.

And it was very funny and sweet. And yeah, that was Neil. Without wanting to let in too much daylight on the chart music magic, sometimes we have episodes penciled in which don't happen or get shunted back or for whatever reason we don't do them. And the most recent of these, which me and Neil were going to do, featured the Rolling Stones doing Brown Sugar. And I'm fairly sure that talking to Neil, who wrote so much and so well about racial issues in pop, and whose all-time favourite band was the Rolling Stones, about Brown Sugar, I have a feeling that that would have been one of the more interesting conversations I've had in recent years.

And I'm quite upset that it now won't happen. Yeah. Like lots of other things. We have really lost some greats in the last 15 years. And Neil, for me, joins now, sadly, my friends and legendary journalists, Stephen Wells and Carol Clerk, as well as Rick Mayall and Amy Winehouse in a small group whose absence I will never quite get. I don't actually comprehend that they're not here anymore. I'm really baffled and bewildered that any of them could be gone. Like surely they're all still rampaging around somewhere. But obvious as it is to say, all

the people that I've mentioned and Neil are alive in their work. There's a huge Kulkarni archive and a massive chunk of it is in chart music. Where you can hear him whenever you want at great, hilarious and serious length, which is such a gift to all of us, I think. I just want to say that I loved doing chart music with him and we were all lucky to have him and I miss him very much. He died at 51. I mean, I've written four books after the age of 51. You know it's just like you know yeah there was so much more we had to give. So much more because he just didn't let up you know. No. You know right to the very, you know to the very sudden end.

His engagement you know was just absolutely tireless. You started that GoFundMe page for Neil's kids. Yeah. Well played, mate. Well, thanks very much. I mean, you know, there was actually very little to it in terms of setting it up. It took about 15, 20 minutes.

And like everybody else, I just sat and watched in astonishment as the amounts piled up. £30,000 in one day. And I mean, you know, that's Neil. You know, that's to do with Neil. And that's just the sort of the love and esteem and affection. I'd done one of these GoFundMe's a few months earlier for a friend of mine to raise money for, she was disabled, to raise money for a sort of razor recliner chair and

it needs £6,000, it was a specialist one. And within a few weeks managed to raise that money and I thought, wow, this is actually a pretty potent means of fundraising. Because imagine like, you know, you could do like, I don't know, a benefit gig or something like that and all the work and all the kind of you know that would have gone into that and unlikely to have raised very much money so it is you know it's just a very very potent means is GoFundMe of you know raising the sort of large and very necessary sums that are required you know under circumstances like this obviously you know I'm very very glad to have thought we've done it but like I say it was it's really down to the sort of

Neil and to the sort of generosity he inspired. But there's another fundraiser on the go for his youngest daughter Sophia, who Neil used to run to a music school in Birmingham every morning and bring her back. She's dealing with autism and has major problems with public transport. She's got one year left on her course and it was looking like she was going to have to chuck it in, but fuck that for a game of soldiers. There's a new crowdfunder that's been set up and it's getting really near to its target. That's right, as we speak. Let's help push it up and over and beyond.

So if you've enjoyed Neil's work on chart music and you're in the position to kick in a bit of money, get yourself over to GoFundMe.com slash Sophia dash cool corner. That's GoFundMe.com slash S O F I A dash K U L K A R N I. And let's get us sorted out. Totally. Yeah. You know, especially if you knew her on Facebook, you'd realise just how much she loved Soph and just the fact that she was so into her metal. Yes. You know, like matching him stride for stride, you know, there would be a big old rouse, you know, about the various merits and demerits of Iron Maiden or whatever. And I mean, that was such a brilliant thing.

And I would talk to myself and it's just, you know, I love it a bit, you know, and it's so funny, you know, whenever we do get to talking about music, it's just a lovely way of connecting. Okay, we've got time for one more clip and if it had been down to Neil, I'm guessing it would have involved one of his all-time favourite acts. We could have gone for the specials, we could have gone for the Stones, but I think he'd approve if I went back to chart music number 63 and let the man speak one more time about his love for Mark Bolan. From one bopper sensation to another, this is T-Rex and Metal Garou. In the vital second to last slot you'll notice, which is traditionally the place where the

number one single resides, and it seems right that this is here, because if anyone has single handedly dragged pop music away from the Dave D creepy twat and cunts of the sixties and placed it squarely in the seventies, it's this man right here, isn't it? Oh yeah, yeah, absolutely. I mean, that's the thing. And we have to, you know, it's telling that you say this man and you don't say T-Rex. You know, for me, rock and pop is about, the music is about collaboration. And I'm always kind of wary of foregrounding individuals, you know, much as with Bowie, the collaborators are important in Mark Boland's case, Visconti is really important. But I do give Mark Boland full credit for making himself a pop star, for turning electric. And he's probably, you know, I love

the Stones and they'll always be my favorite band. Mark is probably the single figure individual I love the most in the entire history of British pop. You've written some lovely articles about him, Nick. Well, I mean I was talking with Taylor the other day online about how neither of us have been asked to write about the Beatles. And, you know, I was so glad when the Quietus asked me to write about T-Rex because he's so important to me, Mark. He's the pop star whose death upsets me the most because I can't help thinking of what he might have done.

The first thing that grabbed me with Mark Bowling wasn't his music in a way. I remember my older sister, so much comes through my older sister. She had a friend called Nathan and he had this coat whose entire lining had been transformed into a robbing kind of receptacle and he just used to go around shoplifting. And I remember he came to our house once after a trip to Cov HMV in about 83, I think it was, I'd have been about 10 or 11, and he carefully lifted this kind of record from this mega pocket in this coat. And I just remember holding it in my hand and staring and staring and staring at the cover until the image on it kind of danced with light.

It seemed full of possibility. And that record, you know, even before I'd heard a lick of the music was Electric Warrior by T-Rex. And I was hooked from that moment, just looking at it. I didn't get to hear that record straight away. The thing that first hooked me musically into Mark was one of those double LP compilations that came out in the 80s. It was Mark Boulderman with a white sleeve. I remember it very distinctly. I mean really on the radio and on sort of archive shows and stuff like that,

Get It On was pretty much the only Mark you heard anywhere at that time. I couldn't believe what I was hearing on that compilation in terms of you, solid gold, easy action and the singles. But beyond the delight of discovering that music, he was properly inspirational at that time in my life. As somebody trying to play guitar, he taught me in a way that no other guitarist I was listening to at the time was. You can play Get It On, you can play 20th Century Boy really quite easily. Because Mark took inspiration from what we might call simple music. In a sense Metal Garou is quite a simple song, it's got about three, four chords in it, but what a big fucking walloping slab of wonder this record is. It probably remains one of my favourite T-Rex

singles. It's a song that's all chorus. It's he and Visconti's most wall of sound production, but as ever with Mark, it's full of those little details that always, for me, lift him a bit apart, lift him a bit beyond. There is not a better intro phrase than oh, well, yeah, the way that Mark does it at the beginning. It just launches you into this thing the performance on this episode is actually a mess and Mark seems a bit out of it the band seem a bit pissed it's got a kind of fag end of the fag end of the Christmas party feel to it but it doesn't matter because you can still hear the record and the record is amazing. This is a victory lap isn't it?

Yeah that's probably why he's been at the Shampers and the Coke and the Fry Up. But some committed mime in of the Congers though, it was such an important part of this record. Good to see everyone taking their responsibilities seriously. I missed this for my birthday number one by a couple of weeks. A friend of mine got it. I got amazing grace by the pipes and drums and military band of the Royal Scots Dragoon Guards. Appropriately enough. But yeah, even with Mark a little bit too loose, as I dare to say he is here,

you still get that same particular energy from this performance, which is so different from Slade or Gary Glitter or any of T-Rex's peers, because there's no wink, there's no grin, there's no pantomime dame moves, there's nothing to suggest that this is a laugh or even to acknowledge that there's anything recreational happening here. It's like in his head this is a laugh or even to acknowledge that there's anything recreational happening here. So in his head this is all deadly serious and dragons really do exist. Which of course is what makes it work the way it does. It's an entire enchanted castle held up by the imagination, you know. But his conviction is so strong and so appealing that you're totally confident walking up the stairs

You know if somebody says hang on this whole group is just a few ancient rock and roll riffs repeated Endlessly over a basic boogie beat with like an old Sid Barrett impersonator off his head Chanting ludicrous rhymes over the top where you can't say that they're factually wrong But you can wonder how they get out of bed every day on What is after all just a little round rock spinning pointlessly in empty space? Jabbering hairless monkeys. I mean it's one way of looking at it But you've got something missing if that's all you can see it's all you know,

sex is just two or three people bumping against each other, right? And what's the big deal with a sunset? I mean, my word, I'm a cynical man in my old age. But if I ever end up like that, I'll save the rest of the world the pain of, of putting up with me, right? You look at Mark's eyes sparkling drunkenly in the studio lights here. I mean he can barely stay upright in this clip and still right there is a physical representation of all the valid reasons to stay alive. The thing about Mark Bolan is if you came up to me and said well look here's this pop

star that's coming on soon, right? He's really influenced by Tolkien. He goes around thinking he's summer. He claims to be the most important poet of his generation. He pons us about big star and girls really like him. I think, well fuck off with that, why do I need that in my life? And if the person had said, well no, it's Mark Bolan. I'd be like, oh, fucking yes, put him on now. Everything wrong and pretentious about pop,

you could sum up with Mark Bolan, but if you think that, then you're not looking at pop, right? Yeah. And also everything that's shameless and mercenary about pop and such. I mean, that was what was weird for me in 83. You know, getting into this artist, and then, you know, inevitably at the time,

you'd go to the Locarno slash the library, and you'd have to read books about these people, because there wasn't anything in the contemporary magazines. And most of what I was reading about, Mark Bolan, in most rock literature, if you like, or the rock textbooks, conform to that kind of lingering perception of him in the press towards the mid-70s, is kind of somewhat shameless,

a chaser of mass appeal, like that's a bad thing, like that shouldn't be the point when it nits so clearly nearly always should be, you know. And the books and the pop encyclopedias that I was, was pretty much all I had to go on in order to flesh out my listening. They had him down basically as a fly-by-night in a kind of flash in the pan whose demise and disappearance were a kind of inevitable result of his limitations. And you know, Bowie, Roxy, pioneers. Bowlan, kind of a bit of a cut above mud perhaps, but not by much. Yeah, he's always been seen as the celerity to Bowie's mosaic, isn't he?

Totally, which I would massively disagree with. I mean, look, it's not a competition. I do prefer Mark to David, but I also found the narrative once I read further and deeper of how Mark had that Judas moment that you mentioned, you know, I found that moment when he went electric, when Peele disdained him, you know, when he, you know, when he appears at the Wheely Festival just outside, clacked him with the faces and status quo in August 71. And he gets booed off. Well, he gets booed because he comes on and says, Hello, you seen me on top of the pops I'm a star. He gives a good quote,

there's no denying it Mark, he really does, he pisses off exactly the right people. But I found all of that tremendously exciting and I mean as soon as he starts appealing to teenage girls, that section of the audience that's basically responsible for so much of pop history But so disdained and seen as an instant sign of creative bankruptcy by rock critics But I just think the critics got marks so wrong Yeah, and when my sister finally borrowed electric warrior and I got to listen to it It was one of my first lessons if you like and how deceitful the canon can be in a way and reductive and wrong it can be. I mean look if you're a kid and you drop the needle on Mambo's Son or

Rip Off or Motivator or anything like that or if we're talking about the slider and you start listening to stuff like Buick, McCain and Chariot Cheagle that's going to hook you. This is a guy, he's natural, he's weird, he's beyond artifice and his music is just intensely, intensely pleasurable and that's the key thing. In this period in particular, I do think in this early 70s period of increasing kind of wooliness and ponderousness for progressive sounds, it is revolutionary what he does and attempts to, in a sense, simplify or distill things. Much like Sabbath World, I mean not comparable comparable but much like Sabbath World or Modern Lovers or the New York Dolls, these are the interesting people, the little Richard freaks in the early 70s,

who don't just like put on a pair of brothel creepers or do the kind of Happy Days type shit. They bring back the weirdness of 50s and old music. That's the crucial thing with Mark I think. You know, all of his inspirations throughout any interview you read with Mark Bolan, he's going to disdain everyone who's contemporary and white. You know, he's going to slag off Slade, he's going to slag off Bowie, he's going to talk about black music almost exclusively because all he listened to was black music, old R&B and blues and rock and roll and stuff. But whereas a lot of white musicians at

the time were taking those old forms and playing them at a billion miles an hour to prove their virtuosity, Mark just innately understood the weirdness of that music, the kookiness. And he populated those kind of forms with his own shape and style. That's why I come back to the guitar playing thing, the delight you have as a young player when you can genuinely play like your heroes, when you can play like Mark, and it is easy to play like Mark, he's such an important teacher in that regard. He is a bit of a mess in this performance and the official version I guess for even those people who like Mark and T-Rex is that he starts losing it pretty soon, you know, that this is his, this is his king year, but I don't know, think of the singles that are about to come, you know, Groover,

20th Century Boy, Solid Gold, Easy Action. It's difficult to see it as a moment where he falls off. Things are gonna start falling apart for him personally soon. You know, his marriage breaks down next year. He treats his band really shoddily, and Tony Visconti really shoddily, and that doesn't help his sense of isolation and paranoia. You can see how big his ego is getting that year. I mean there's a brilliant quote from him in 72

when he's asked about, you know, to suppose he'd feud with David Bowie and he says, I don't consider David to be even remotely near big enough to give me any competition. It's quite a long quote but I'm going read it, because I think it's revealing. At the time the feud story hit England, my records were number one, and they stayed number one, while David's never came near. I don't think that David has anywhere near

the charisma or balls that I have, or Alice has, or Donny Osmond has got. David's not gonna make it in any sort of way. The papers try and manufacture a lot of things. They try to do something with Slade. Slade's just a jive little group who are quite sweet and bang about a lot. They're very valid for what they do,

but I don't think anyone can seriously compare them to me. Whether you think I'm good or bad, I'm still the best-selling poet in England. I don't think anyone in Slade can write four words. And I don't mean to be condescending They're nice people. Bowie just doesn't have that sort of quality that I do I always have Rod Stewart has it in his own mad way Elton John has it Mick Jagger has it Michael Jackson has that quality David Bowie doesn't I'm sorry to say right now. I'm the biggest selling poet in England. I hope to be even bigger

I mean those kind of arrogant quotes Are gonna piss people off and of course it's setting himself up for the overwhelming narrative later on in the decade to be in A sense that David won that feud. Yeah He might as well have finished that quote with the phrase and I will never ever get my comeuppance I'll have finished that quote with a phrase, and I will never ever get my comeuppance. Yes. Yeah, he's setting himself up for huge hubris. But I would actually argue that in terms of apprehending

and absorbing contemporary black pop, the moves that David Bowie and Roxy make sort of by about 75, they lag behind what Mark's about to do with Tanks and with the Zinc Alloy albums. I think those albums are fantastic. And this is the thing, for me, he never made a bad record. That run from 70 to 77 isn't really spoken about like that. I mean, I'm a fan boy.

I'll even argue the toss for Bowlin's Zip Gun and Futuristic Dragon and things like that. Things that are commonly seen as sad documents of a demise, but I still get a lot of delight from them. I think he stayed hungry till the end and he was making amazing music all the way through to the end. Well, no, I agree that he didn't make a bad record. I think he made less good right? Yeah, I don't think you made a bad one

And I think in fact you can hear in this the beginning of what was gonna begin with tanks of that sort of Sludging up. Yeah of T-rex, right? Which is which made them less good, but it didn't make them not good You know, i mean this song is blatantly half finished which is something that i sort of like about it um but that slackness can happen when very narcissistic people become successful because the drive for success that they had which made them try so hard because it was necessary for them to succeed, which was necessary for their psychological survival. When they get what they want, can sort of go a bit

and they can just find themselves, you know, like, hey, you know, everything I do is great because I'm so fascinating. And yeah, I mean, the whole purpose of this song is to be incredibly repetitive But you can sort of feel that lack of a bridge or a middle eight and the sort of the swollen Confidence to just to listen to that lovely Sighing and hysterical

Circular melody and just think well there it is. There's the song. Yeah, that's all we need, you know pasta champagne there's the song yeah that's all we need you know pasta champagne but I mean to be honest I don't care and the only thing that annoys me about that is the fact that it means there's a subsequent shortage of lyrics because the more words in a Bolan song the better I mean of course he wasn't any kind of poet as he idiotically believed himself to be because nothing he ever wrote has got any actual meaning or weight to it of any kind. But he was a fabulous writer, just purely in terms of creating streams of words which were cliche free and flowed directly from this very singular imagination. People scoff at nonsense, but there's nonsense. And then there's nonsense, right? Like the lyrics of Mark Bolan, like the more elevated artistic

and disturbed lyrics of his hero, Sid Barrett, are nonsense, but they're a completely different proposition to, for example, the lyrics of Noel Gallagher. Yeah. Yeah. And it's not because they've been worked on harder and it's not because they mean more. They probably mean less if anything. But it's the difference between on the one hand writing that transports and disorientates you and stimulates your mind with surprises and illogical angles and unusual thought. And on the other hand, just mental incontinence, just dripping from a fundamentally ordinary brain. It's like I'd said this in the past, like defending Monty Python,

it's like the difference between surrealism and the kind of shit that the kids call lol random. One of them is potent and the other one is inert because like anyone can write down the first thing that comes into their head and get a cross between a nursery rhyme, a shopping list and just a rerun of other people's cliches like you know Gallagher style. Whereas it's the definition of talent to look inside your head and immediately see something a little bit more unusual than that and obviously a lot of it is in the delivery because let's face it if Mark Bolan had sung slowly walking down

the hall faster than a cannonball it would would sound visionary. And if Oasis had sung, you know, I have never ever kissed a car before, it's like a door, we'd all just snort. And appropriately enough. But in a way, what Mark does with his lyrics, if they were all just kind of nonsensical mashups of science fiction and fifties imagery, they wouldn't work.

Occasionally, he does reach your heart in a deep, deep way. My youngest, Sophia, looks like Mark Bowling. She's got long curly hair and she looks like Mark Bowling. And we were listening to Spaceball Ricochet in the Car, which is one of the great songs off Slider. And of course there's that line, me and my Les Paul, even though I'm small, I enjoy living anyway. It's a beautiful line, man. And it touches her. The way she looks at Mark is really quite amusing actually. I catch her sometimes looking,

just looking at pictures of him. And you know, clearly in love. Slight maybe narcissism, cause she does look a bit like him. You know, he does get you in the heart. And he's probably the rock death in a way that upsets me the most. His death in 77 is for me the most upsetting rock bereavement of all time, next to kind of Jimmy I think. Not just because of the horrible random tragedy of the nature of his death, but because like Jimmy,

I still get the sense, even after Dandy and the Underworld, which I think is probably his worst record, you get the sense that there's a man who's still got a lot to offer and so much more to give. And just as it's heartbreaking thinking of what Jimmy might have done in the 70s, I feel Robbed in a sense, even if it was going to be disastrous. Mark in the late 70s, early 80s, when so much of what was going on in UK pop music was so clearly made by his devotees and that goes all the way from I don't know Pete Shelley to Simon Lippon. You know when he finally gets starts getting taken seriously as one of British pop music's most important figures he's not

there and I do wonder what he would have done with the changing technology of 80s pop. Oh he would have sown my dissent though. Oh without a doubt and probably he would have ended up I don't know propping up the soap from on Pebble Mill with Gloria, Hunnifield or something But I wish I could have seen it, you know every morning when I dropped my Sophia at school I say the same thing have a good day. Try your best Make us proud keep a little mark in your heart and she says keep a little mark in your heart But and if I send one message out to the to the pot crazy youngsters I think everyone should keep a little mark in

your heart and if you've got mark down I don't know it's just a singles artist or you know don't get those albums all of those albums and dig in because there's so much wonder in there. Oh mate that last bit ruins me every time. The Odyssey continues. Chart Music will return, but for now let me say on behalf of Team Chart Music, big respect to all the Pop Craze youngsters for their kind thoughts and for giving us the time to sort ourselves out, and special thanks to Lily Wilde for allowing us to use Neil's favourite photo of himself for the cover art. He loved you to bits, Lily. Stay popcrazed,

Doug. That's the end of this episode. My name's Al Needham, and on behalf of Sarah B, Taylor Parks, Simon Price and David Stubbs. Terah Neil, you were mint and skill. It's been our privilege to know you and we will always keep a little you in our hearts. You may have coated down our favourite bands and artists, but we'll never forget. What did you expect from the first two games? So they got and smash it and I remember being horrified when I finally saw what they look like because what were you expecting? Well, I wasn't expecting or Zabal. I really objected to his appearance. I don't know why I mean in 83 I was hatefully shallow about pop music and I still am hopefully at times but but the hair was was I mean They would they were just one of those acts that repulsed me in a sense

And the only other comparison I can give is Andy McClusky's MoMD repulsed me as well at the time and Roger Daltrey has always repulsed me. But I wouldn't eat a sandwich made by these people. That should be the way we judge pop. They'd leave thumb prints in it or something. And also the rest of the band. Now hang on a minute Neil, I want to go into this. Which pop groups would you eat sandwiches?

This is really important, I need to know. Erm... Who would be the pop group you think, yeah I'd definitely eat sandwiches? Well there's lots of pop groups I'd eat sandwiches from. It's more about the pop groups I certainly wouldn't. And I think perhaps the one I most definitely, definitely would not is the Thompson Twins. Yes. I would not eat a fucking sandwich made by this. They look dirty.

You know those people who even if they're clean just look grubby. To me that's what the Thompson Twins were. And of course the Thompson Twins, they do it as a community thing, you know. Or we've got to do equal amounts of work. Yeah. Which means you've got three pairs of hands on your sandwich. Yeah and it'd be like cheese and banana or something. I mean for me, E17, they just look like the type of lads who'd spend all the time with

their hands down the tracksuit bottoms. And you definitely don't want to get involved with baked potato with them that's for sure. No, certainly wouldn't. I thought there wouldn't be any would there? No, it wouldn't. And I think you know you want, say in a cheese sandwich, I personally would like the cheese to be kind of regularly cut to a thinness. Whereas I think E17 would just break it off with that kind of shorting that would then poke holes in the bread. Not have a sandwich of that. No, no. And as for who I, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, No, absolutely not. Can you imagine it? Making this sandwich with fag hanging out there, fag ash dropping into the marjorie and just spreading it in, you know, like Old Man Steptoe, like six different kinds of fecal

bacteria under their feet and that. It would be white bread, it would be like Mother's Pride, like that real cheap stuff, like window putty. It would, it would be fucking horrible shit fish paste and made on a made not on a breadboard but directly on a kitchen worktop that's nice nice scurrying all over yeah also cuz you're a journalist they'd have done a cum in it no I a kebab batch right but batch batches what we call bread rolls around it. I ate a kebab batch from a Chippie and Coff about six years ago. I don't know why I ordered it.

Kebab meat in a bun and halfway through eating it, found fingernail. And that is how repulsive a sandwich from the stranglers would be, I think. All right, all right then, Neil, let's how repulsive a sandwich from the stranglers would be I think All right. All right then Neil. Let's take it one stage further, right? Would you eat a pre-wrapped sandwich that was given to you by the stranglers? No No, you looked at it and it wasn't tampered with in any way. No holes in it The the dates still good. Yeah, but it might have been in their pocket or something. Yeah, this is it Boy, the worst smelling van in Rock. Yeah, yeah, no, no, I wouldn't actually. Cause yeah, it would have been near them.

I mean, it's kind of like, it's kind of like, you know, if you had a hermetically sealed sandwich, would you eat it if I put it for like 20 seconds in a latrina to festival? No. No? No. And that's what it'd be like getting a sandwich off the stranglers.

Yeah, the stranglers have a special kind of filth that can penetrate cellophane. The pig pens of pot. Neil. Yes. Would you eat a beef burger made by Showaddywaddy? Erm, you know what? Let's find out. Because in a blue jeans annual of the late 70s that I came across the other day, I came

across a section called Star Snacks where pop stars gave recipes out. One example that I'm not going to go into is Smokey Beano's, which was essentially beans on toast for the drummer of Smokey. This one really caught the eye and I thought I'd run it past you. Show Waddy Waddy love getting together to tuck into big steaks, but if they're recording, they may only have time to tuck into a beef burger, so it's got to be good. Ingredients

1 tablespoon of oil 1 large onion 1.5lbs lean mince 1 raw egg Spanish stuffed olives A tablespoon of tomato chutney 4 soft rolls. Step one. Mix mince with egg and season. Four mince of four beef burgers and frying oil together with onion rings.

Step two. Chop eight olives and mix into chutney. Spread on halved baps and place beef burgers and onion rings inside. Step 3. You kiss and hold it tightly. No, no, no, you don't. Hold baps together with a cocktail stick threaded with olives. Serve hot. Well, erm... Sir, your opinion? The thing is with burger recipes like this, I don't want to know it's got egg in it man, to bind it. I don't like egg. And olives get fucked. I mean, I would not eat these.

Maybe I'd eat them if Romeo cooked them and served them to me, but I wouldn't if Dave Bartram did, because I just don't really trust where his hands have been. And yeah, it's not an anti-Lester thing, it's just that in terms of celebrity recipes this year, I would much rather eat Starsky's chocolate pancakes from the Starsky and Hutch annual of 1977 than I would eat this Ola burger. The idea of show what he wanted just around an oven, showing each other homemade pornography. I hope it's an electric oven because those suits look awfully like they should be kept showing each other homemade pornography. I hope it's an electric oven because those suits look awfully like they should be kept

away from a naked flame. Neil, I've got a question for you. Now that we've seen the three heavy bands on this show, White Snake, Saxon, Motorhead, where would you place them on the sandwich scale? Right. So basically... Oh! Okay, good question. Just to do a reset for brand new listeners, Neil has previously judged bands according to whether he'd let them make a sandwich for him. The Stranglers, for example, being a hard no. So yeah, basically Whitesnake, Saxon, Motorhead. What's the order? Right, okay. The order is as follows. I think the last person that I'd have a sandwich of is David Coverdale's White Snake. They look awful.

I don't know where his hands have been, you know, Coverdale? No, no, I wouldn't have one of them. Saxon would make a delicious sandwich, I think, full of stout Yorkshire ingredients, I'm sure. But you know, the one I'd want the most is motorhead. Reason being, I remember going to festivals in the 90s not knowing anybody and going backstage and going to the bogs and there's just a layer of speed and cocaine over everything that you could just harvest for yourself. And I reckon a motorhead sandwich would have that much loose amphetamine in it.

I'd be buzzing for fucking days. So yeah, I'd go for the motorhead sandwich please. Hardcore horse radish going on there. Fucking hell. It's an hard life when you're working on the farm. Down on the farm, I don't need no alarm. I rise from my bed at five. They're still active today and share the same manager with which other band?

Oh, White House? The Stranglers. Oh, I mean. Neil? Yeah? You know what I'm going to ask? I think I did. Something about the catering.

The Wurzels or the Stranglers, who would you have a sandwich off? Oh man. I mean they're both gross. The Wurzels or the Stranglers, who would you have a sandwich off? Um, oh man. I mean they're both gross. But yeah, with the fear of genuine fecal contamination from the Wurzels. Bread all soggy with cow placenta. Um, I think I've got to go Stranglers. Wow!

Fucking hell. You've got to consider though, from the Wurzels is going to be farm fresh. Yeah but farm fresh is often gross to be honest with you. With that West Country sauce. Yeah I'd have brains faggots in a West Country sauce off the Wurzels so long as they assure me that they're just putting it in a microwave. Anything that they've touched, no they're farm folk, they don't know cleanliness. Neil! No, you know, it's the country way. I feel so apologetic to our rural person. No, no, your stomach hardens to that stuff after a few years. This is it.

Bacteria just die like dogs in there. Yeah, my aircon in my car right is fucked. So when I was driving through the countryside, I'm away to Norfolk. Of course I was hit by those gusts of chicken shit and pig shit, you know, the really bad stuff. And, you know, because my aircon's full, there's no point closing the window. So I just had to, you know, brave it.

But these countryside folk, you know, you just get used to it, don't you? They are completely inured to that stuff. So, you know, during sandwich preparation, who knows what the fuck will be going in there? Who knows whether they've cleaned? I'm not saying everyone in the countryside is a dirty, disgraceful bastard, but the words are committed rural folk. And yeah, I'd be dubious about proper contamination from animals, animal shit basically. So yeah, although the stranglers

are grubby bastards as well, I don't think they've got, you know, pigs in their back garden or anything. So yeah, gotta go Stranglers, I'm afraid. So Popcraze youngsters, if you read in the news about a cow being thrown off a bridge onto someone's car on the outskirts of Coventry soon, that'll be Neil. La la la la, oh ah oh ah ah They call me fire where bills come from La la la la, oh ah oh ah ah