Chilluminati Podcast - Episode 277 - The Assassination of JFK: The Final Word

Episode Date: December 8, 2024

Alex, Jesse and Mike jump into the Assassination of JFK one last time. Or so Alex says. MERCH - http://www.theyetee.com/collections/chilluminati HelloFresh - http://www.hellofresh.com/freechill HeroForge - http://www.heroforge.com All you lovely people at Patreon! HTTP://PATREON.COM/CHILLUMINATIPOD Jesse Cox - http://www.youtube.com/jessecox Alex Faciane - http://www.youtube.com/user/superbeardbros Editor - DeanCutty http://www.twitter.com/deancutty Show art by - https://twitter.com/JetpackBraggin http://www.instagram.com/studio_melectro JFK III: NOTE FROM THE PUBLISHER Clip of Donahue shooting faster than Oswald: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ghmY6HmR4fs Youtube upload of the Zapruder film (CONTENT WARNING: EXTREME GRAPHIC REAL VIOLENCE): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HBJFT-OyDEc Zapruder film frame by frame (CONTENT WARNING: EXTREME GRAPHIC REAL VIOLENCE): https://www.assassinationresearch.com/zfilm/ Most shown photo of Hickey with the AR-15: https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/e/e4/Hickey-ar-15_jfk.jpg

Hello everybody and welcome back to the Chiluminati Podcast, episode 277. As always, I'm one of your hosts, Mike Martin, joined by the Ventus and Venetius of LA, Jesse and Alex. And if you know what those names are, I get it, the sun is a scary, scary thing and it can hurt if you're in it for too long. But I promise you should go outside just a little bit. From your context clues, I'm guessing it's vampires. No.

Oh, okay. All right. It's Kingdom Hearts. Oh, even worse. Ventus and Venetus? They're both sauras. Yeah, that's exactly what I was gonna guess. Are they part of Organization XIII? Kind of. hold on.

Are they need to play by sleep? Hold on. Which one are the way the way the way the way the way the way the way the way the Zemnus zeynort or zeynort. You know what? Here's, here's all you need to know. If you're at home saying, well, this sounds stupid. It's it is.

Yeah. And I'm an organization, uh, 30. So I, I need to move on to move on to more intellectual pursuits. You know what I mean? I just wanted to watch Squall beat up Darth Vader, but that shit didn't happen. So no, that did not happen. What is going on with that? What is up with that?

Like it's all on the table. Xenomorph, Xehanort, Xenomorph, the Xenomorph. They're all on the table for Kingdom Hearts, but I have a feeling he will never touch a Xenomorph. Even though I wish Xenomorph versus Xehanort would be just... There was a Xenomorph in Disney World, right? Remember when it was just like a thing where it was like Final Fantasy characters and they're in The Lion King and that's cute.

And then it went off the rails in a way that immediately worries me for all of us. Kingdom Hearts 2 is like the peak of that genre, I mean of that series, but even during Kingdom Hearts 2, and I'm replaying it right now for the first time since it came out in 05, the rails are, the bolts are coming off the rails really quickly. Oh, completely, completely. And by the, I feel like by the end of it, like as a kid I was like enamored,

but like I wonder like by the end of it, does it a kid, I was like enamored. But like I wonder, like by the end of it, does it go? It does. It goes nuts. Or is it like dream drop distance and birth by sleep that really sends it careening into chaos town? Those are both really good. It makes me worry for Final Fantasy seven's future. I know.

I know. Cause when you really, really want to be good, I bought the final remix stuff cause I haven't played them since launch and I'm playing it because in fucking Final Fantasy, essentially Ghost Organization 13 cloaked people are flying around to prevent fate from like going off the rails. Are they? Who knows though? Who knows?

That's the other thing. I guess it depends on how the world ends with you cast figure into the Kingdom Hearts universe as hinted at by the trailer after the credits of the last DLC for Kingdom Hearts 3. Jesus man, I have never played Kingdom Hearts 3 so I'm really eager to get to it because I've heard it's awful. Waste of time. Also, you know what? Speaking of Kingdom Hearts, this is why everybody out there is a fucking bullshitter. We could do a whole episode about Kingdom Hearts and Chaluminati and it would still

fit the genre. Here's why everybody out there is a bullshitter is because everybody makes fun of the way that I name shit and Everybody just buys Kingdom Hearts. They should not they should not it should be it's garbage I mean, that's selling games like everybody sell amazingly. Yeah, they're still named like garbage even back then dream drop distance Go fuck yourself. That's so so dumb no fucking birth by sleep okay that's I am 12 and this is D one of them is literally called 364 over 2 whatever the hell that like that's not good over 2 which is all about Roxas's life that game came after I just want to say to the record oh by the way for anyone at

home who loves Kingdom Hearts I love it it. That's fine. Live your life. I have no shame in that game. You're the game franchises. You can't you can't help but admit that it's insane. That it's insane. Yeah. We love we all love insane shit. That's the thing. The inscrutability of Kingdom Hearts is what draws us to it. The mystery of it. And if you think the creator has any answers, he doesn't. I just wanted to watch Darth Vader fight like cloud while Mickey Mouse dropkicks. I get it. I don't. So like that's all I wanted. And we had it for a while. It was there for

a little bit. And then they were like, actually Aqua knows the key. I'm like, who the hell's Aqua dude? There's these other characters that you didn't know about one of the one of the key blade warriors like That's trash that once we got to there that's trash It's like if Super Smash Brothers just added like 15 dudes that are like from like some like really specific like From like 14th century France like 15 just like new guys There's like who are these guys? You're like who the fuck are these guys?

They knew about the glove and they like knew the lore and they were very important to it. The monks of Master Hand or some shit like that. And you're like, who are these guys? And they're like, no, they got great moves and good voice acting. And then what they tell you is actually the real secret of all of the Melee games

is that the Master Hand is the hand of master Zemnarkas and they've been fighting him for 12,000 years. Master Sakurai but it's spelled with an X at the beginning. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Sakurai. Sakurai. I can't talk though. My favorite games are Metal Gear Solid.

So what are we what are we doing? What is, let's get into this episode. We have to open the episode with something that I feel like I need to just talk about and put it out there because that- Get out there. Go on. You know exactly what I'm about to talk about, Alex. Yeah, dude, Mathis called me,

like in the middle of the night the other day, like buzzing, trying to tell me that he, you know, he had something that he needed to share. And I didn't know what it was at first. I like, the tone eventually came, how high were you? Jesus Christ, Jesse, not that high. I like the tone eventually came how high were Christ Jesse not that high I'm high all the time all right all right, so hallucinate on weed But I also had other pair of eyes on it, so I just want to say for the record

He did not message me he did not call me which means he went to a sympathetic audience So what I'm gonna call it all right? I'm just saying to be fair I also knew having your reaction on show would be much better. Okay. Because here's the thing. Ever since I saw the triangle in LA, I've seen a couple of weird things in the sky

and it might just be because I'm looking in the sky more or what have you, but the other night, I saw something that I don't, I can't, I don't understand, I can't explain. So I was in my house, it was about, it was timed at 6.m. my time, so it was pitch dark out, because the sun's down at 5 p.m.

And I was just going to close the blinds in my house, and I closed the ones that looked to my backyard, and I go to the one that's for the side of the house, and as soon as I get over there, the moment I get over there, from what is east to west, my left going to my right, is a bright, and I mean bright, like I thought it was, like it could have been a low flying plane

if I didn't know that I live in an area worth a bunch of planes and I know what they look like and there was no plane attached to it, it was just a bright orangish like star looking thing. And it came into my view from my left, moving kind of like weirdly. That's what caught me immediately. There wasn't just like, and it was,

I didn't watch it and then I caught something. As it came into view, it was moving in a way that made no sense. The best way to describe it is herky jerky, where it was like stutter stepping and it would be go like up and then down and then it would stop for like half a second. You found some footage somewhere that like kind of looked like it.

Yeah I shared some footage. I can, I'll include it in the show notes for people to go look at if they're interested. Like it moved like that and then even it caught my eye. But the thing that made me lose my mind is that about a third of the way through my vision it did a loop de loop. It did a loop de loop and then it moved weirdly again. It did another loop de loop and then immediately followed by a third one. All little not huge ones, like tight little loop de loops.

And then it kind of just jittered its way out. Now, I screamed for Jess like bloody murder because I couldn't believe what I was seeing. And she thought something was wrong She's like Jesus Christ. What's going on? Let's be a treat Yeah, sure And she goes that's a plane and immediately then said no that's not a plane and I ran outside as fast as I fucking could barefoot into the grass and

The thing is you boys were at my house, but he might have been so long You might not remember, but directly behind my backyard fence are woods. It just turns into a bit of woods. And in that direction is restricted airspace because that's, I live a little bit away from an airport and the restricted airspace for shit goes out quite a distance and I'm like right in an alleyway,

like a pathway for planes so I run outside and the minute I get out there it's already over the tree line and I can't see it and Jess said she was able to track it until it went to over the trees and then it was gone I don't understand what it was there were no blinking lights it made zero sound there was no noise attached to it whatsoever and that thing was low and bright, like nothing I'd ever seen. Like it was just, and I don't know what it was,

that was two nights ago, oh yeah, two nights ago now. It was on Tuesday night that I saw it, 6.40 p.m. moving east to west in the northern Houston area, shall we say. I used my flight radar app 24 Immediately and I checked there was no at least through that app. There was no flight happening In that direction or moving from that place pretty good beyond that I don't like I said, it could be drone, but the way it moved was weird and it was moving into restricted airspace

I don't know. I don't't know I have to put it out there of course what do you think you keep seeing these I don't know I don't know I say I keep saying I wish it was you think it's gonna do that first encounter that they're trying to reach out to you I don't know I don't think so I just it could be like the moment I saw something maybe I'm looking more now Maybe I'm just like looking a lot more than I was prior Doing that maybe they feel your intentions I'm not going outside at like every hour on a level like I was before but I am if I'm within window moving

I'm always peering up just trying to catch a glimpse. Maybe that's all it takes Maybe we're just not looking up just everything about that like everything maybe you also live. I you have to keep my two. That's true in an area That's true. Yeah, I can see the night sky clearly I can see I intentionally never look up the sky scares me That's the thing about the ground frequently because at least I know I have dominion over it and not the don't though because there are sink Holes everywhere and they can literally over it and not the don't though because there are sinkholes everywhere and they can literally I'm looking at the ground you live in California that thing can fuck that earthquake can destroy you and I just got swallowed by a do live in an

area where there's not as much not nearly as much light pollution as in LA where it's like you can see a few stars maybe like out here you can I can see a fuck time so what do you think's happening? Why do you what do you think you're seeing? I don't want to say it wasn't a drone because like it's still I don't know. I went to look for footage of a drone I couldn't find footage of a drone that made sense. I don't I not I I literally wish it wasn't me because it sucks that it's me. He's already tired of seeing He's already tired of seeing him. Nobody's gonna believe me. like, I don't then don't look up if you're tired. No, no, because I, at least personally,

I'm having the experience and I'm loving that politics. But what is, what are you loving about it? Cause it's weird and I don't know what it is. And I'm so curious. Cause it's, it's like, I don't know. I haven't seen shit like that before. And even if maybe it's just like ball lightning. Yeah. Like it's crazy lightning. Like, Maybe it's just like ball lightning. Yeah. Maybe it's ball lightning. Like, I don't fucking know.

But I've never seen ball lightning before. It's something. It's something regardless of what it is, right? Yeah, it's not like I didn't see something. I saw something. You're in the woods. You hear a sound. It doesn't matter if it's a deer, right?

For a minute, you're like, what's that? Yeah. Yeah, there's serial killers here or whatever. I don't want to give an excuse because I don't think there is a reason. I don't know if there's a reason at all. I don't I don't want to give an excuse reason cuz I don't think there is a reason I don't know if there's a reason at all. I don't know if I'm just it's all coincidental It very well could be eight billion people on earth You know someone's gonna see some weird shit sometimes like it if you just said you were being targeted by the aliens like this whole Stuff but I don't know what it is like it's not selling

Doing it at a super infrequent rate that makes no sense to be like to me target. Maybe you just really want it. Were you like, were you really horny for alien? Were you really horny? Yeah. Were you thinking like, I need that alien to see. Oh, that's right.

I was closing the blinds because I was about to get real personal with my thoughts about aliens. Right. I'm glad that's where you went. I was worried for a minute. I like to get personal with my thoughts about aliens from time to I'm glad that's where you went. I was worried for a minute. I like to get personal with my thoughts about aliens from time to time as well. I do not. I um, don't even know what you two are talking about. Yeah, Virginal. That's what they call them.

I know. Virginal cocks. Old, like, yeah. Old Virginal. Old Virginal. That's what they call them. Like an old, like a geyser. Yeah. Yep, that is my Devil May Cry name, Virginal. But a geyser that never... Okay, uh is my Devil May Cry name, virginal. But a geyser that never, okay.

Welcome back, my friends, to the show that never ends. Except it does end, and it ends now with the last normal episode about JFK in the cycle, JFK 3, note from the publisher, in which I take one last look at one last theory before I try to take a crack at what I think happened myself in one last beautiful performance art piece next summer. Is your theory a separate episode? Yeah, no, I'm just kidding about that. Or am I?

Anyway, Alex, do you ever think about how someone could have started listening to the first JFK episode and then died by the time that we got to this one? Yeah, that's my grandma. Oh my god. Thank you so much to our longtime sponsor and people who keep my belly full. HelloFresh. You wouldn't want to see me without my belly full. You wouldn't want to see me with my belly in general. That costs extra. With HelloFresh, you know what my belly full. You wouldn't want to see me with my belly in general. That costs extra. With HelloFresh, you know what you're getting.

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And cooking is a huge stressor. HelloFresh can take care of that easily. All you gotta do is pick your meals, and everything you need is delivered, like I said, directly to your door. There's always something for everyone to enjoy in HelloFresh's weekly menu, with 50 chef-crafted recipes to choose from every week plus customizable options to make your meals just the way you like them. You'll be able to easily satisfy every

craving. And if you're traveling for the holidays or just too busy to cook at home, you can easily skip a week's delivery if you need to. Get free 10 meals at hellofresh.com slash free chill that's applied across seven boxes, new subscribers only, and it varies by plan. That's 10 free HelloFresh.com slash free chill that's applied across seven boxes, new subscribers only, and it varies by plan. That's 10 free HelloFresh meals. Just go to HelloFresh.com slash free chill. Thank you again to HelloFresh, America's number one meal kit. That's a hell of an answer. Good answer. Good answer. Anyway, this once again is the story of the death of President John Fitzgerald Kennedy, who, if you believe the official story, was assassinated on November 22nd, 1963 in Dallas, Texas by an ex-military marksman with the now infamous three-part name Lee Harvey Oswald,

who made a one-in-a-million shot and acted alone and then was eventually killed by another man, nightclub owner and possible career criminal or government stooge or just plain stressed up patriotic weirdo Jack Ruby who also acted alone on behalf of the city of Dallas and America and Jackie Kennedy and that as they say is that bing bang boom Bush did 9-11 jet fuel can't melt steel beams. What? Surprise, there's actually QAnon guys in charge of our country right now. And obviously, there's lots more to be said about what happened that day where it could

be broken down moment by moment, or you could look at a smattering of all the different witness testimonies and theories to get a broader picture of what was going on that day, or you could dig into Oswald's life a little bit, or you could tap into the geopolitical pulse of the era, break down Bay of Pigs and Vietnam and the Cuban Missile Crisis, track the rise of American organized crime, get a sense of all the different entities

out there in the world who may or may not have had a vendetta against JFK. And why? I know you could do all those things because actually I already did all of those things. And if you wanna hear all that before this, which will admittedly give you welcome, but also completely necessary context before what we're going to discuss today, check out and

get ready for this because you're going to have to write this down probably if you're trying to go deep right now. Episodes 139, episode 158, 159, 160, 214, and 215 in that order. Good lord. In that order. And then your context- Sounds like too many episodes. That's a lot.

And then your context will be total. It's far across. Much too big a timeline. Your context will be total because we are not recapping any of that again today. Or, or if total isn't enough context, let's bring you online all the way to the paratotal level as for the very second to last time. We must review this sequence of episodes which has been designated H8 or 8H as some people refer to it by powers beyond our

comprehension. I'm just kidding. The powers are actually graspable. Can I just put this out there? Absolutely. No, episode 139, just so I can put this out there for context, was in 2022, February of 2020, early 2022, and the title of that episode is Alex Mysteries Part 5 Finale. And that is the biggest fucking lie on every title of all time. And yet we love Xehanort. And yet we love Zehenort. And yet we love Zehenort. Almost, if anything, it's, I think it is exactly accurate to most of the conspiracy theories we cover. A total lie. A massive lie.

You're gonna feel like all those people when Kojima said they were gonna feel bad when he explained who Quiet was to them. Oh my God. Listen, she has to be naked. She eats and breathes through her skin. Listen, she has to be naked. She eats and breathes skin. I never questioned that. Listen, there are powers beyond our comprehension at work here.

Never questioned it. I am not allowed to tell you about the powers beyond our comprehension, nor do I really know about them. But I did reveal this H8 scheme for the first time all the way back in JFK 2, The Oliver Stone. And there are eight episodes involved overall. Which was really a shadow pilot for the Green Stone, which was coming later.

No, no, no, he named it the Oliver Stone because of the Green Stone. That was the pun there. Right, right, secret, secret. Yeah, no, we've suffered through many Alex mysteries. You guys are so lucky. On all eight of these episodes are connected by some sort of secret thread,

all culminating in one, secret thread all culminating in one This is all culminating in one more amazing breathtaking Overwhelmingly satisfying the episode at the end of all this. I hope on our 10 year anniversary Alex does one more episode and at the very end he just fades away and we never know what he's actually wraps up an episode Do you think Mathis do you think like Actually wraps up an episode. Do you think Mathis? Do you think like are we reasonable? I can't end an episode is because if he does he ceases to be Alex is a ghost with unfinished business and as soon as he finishes any goes away

Don't feel so good when Bill Pullman goes to heaven right at the end I don't feel so good when Bill Pullman goes to heaven right at the end uh Mm-hmm actually get this get this actually you assholes just in case you didn't catch it last time when I said I'm running the show for the next little while this whole giant bitch of a thing that I'm talking about is wrapping up before the End of this year, and then it's on to newer better Chaluminations for next year that'll blow your mind even harder than I blew you this year does that sound pretty good I just yeah. Anything anytime you're willing to blow me better. Yeah.

Yeah. I mean like I'm like that part. Yeah. Anyway, the first one just to review the first one was the one where Jesse was gone and Santel and math has almost piggyed me Lord of the fly style about whether or not we should be paying more attention to defense contractors and or read it when it comes to UFOs or whether it was all lies. Funny how it got tested testified on congressional record that Lockheed

Raytheon have shit. Weird. Weird how that actually happened once later. Not a hoax. The special clue word for that one was hidden. Then up next was heavyweights. We have to do this every time we do one of these. One more after this and then we're all done forever. The up next was heavyweights. People will never figure this out. No, never. This finale is gonna lead into your new thing. Yeah, but it's diff, trust me, you're all, everyone is gonna just. Now that you've had your eight, your 10 H's,

the next will be four F's. In Kingdom Hearts 3 was supposed to be the last Kingdom Hearts game and now we have a trailer for four and he's living in like real world. So like, I don't know bro. Yeah, that's where we're at. How exciting for the fan base of Kingdom Hearts. Up next was Heavyweights,

which turned out to be all about famous fakers, the WWE, the mysteries within and strange ghostly enigmas from back when I had slightly more co-workers. Then we had Horse, which was a look at the not so mysterious after all Denver Airport with the giant blue murderous horse statue with the glowing red eyes and the giant blue horse dick. Then we had head, which had my rival Pat on where we talked about whether or not the dream realm and reality connects somewhere. Has he always been your rival by the way? No, that started last week. Yeah, no, that started last week.

Okay, that's a new thing. That's been a development. Okay, I like that. He turned heel. Yeah, where we talked about whether or not the dream realm and reality connects somewhere and interpreted some of his as well as our listeners dreams. He actually just kept a dream journal for that for a month. And then the man does his work.

I appreciate that. And then was Hello, which was my giant four part zodiac chunker and my failed alternate reality game, which was just so cosmically perfect by the way, because maybe zodiac wasn't who he pretended to be either. And then for number six of eight, we had Huge, which stood for the other five toes of the semi-non-fictional Big Feet, and the wonderful and fully non-fictional, fully man-made Jacob Wysocki, whom I love and genuinely super chill to have on. And then seventh, here we are today, as many of you have guessed, with him again, for another

crack at debunking the great American conspiracy theory, JFK3, Letter from the Publisher, which obviously I'll say way more about in just a moment. And then next time, it's the final one before the big reveal, the episode with the secret phrase hero. And I'm not going to tell you who the hero is, just that pretty much everyone thinks they're cool. And then we're also going to have on another really cool, fun guest for that episode who we've never had on the show before.

That's next week. Isn't that exciting? The H8 sequence ends next week. Okay, and now- Casey, would you like access to the schedule, by the way? We have everything planned out to like me. Yeah, yeah, this is no bullshit. This is real.

That's, that's, I don't like that. No, that's good. That's what people doing their jobs seem looks like. No. Don't trust me. One million years later, it's almost finally showtime. Please support these detailed fun whimsical episodes we do on here at patreon.com slash Sumo Nite Pod. We're not asking for much, but no matter how much you want to give,

we've got something nice waiting to thank you for it. So pause this for a second. Head over there, check out our zone, give it a look over, maybe sign up, maybe sign your parents up, maybe sign up your secret center, maybe double check that you have the safety on. Settle in. Oh yeah, Patreon has like gift options now. Yeah, kick back, relax, give a gift of us

to your loved ones and settle in for some accidental government sanctioned mystery FPS action. And you have relatives that are lost to conspiracy theories, just sell us as Conspiracy Theory Podcasts. And there you go. Just give them, give them the Chiluminati and we'll save your grandma. I don't know that that's gonna work out.

I believe about 10 minutes ago you said, and I quote, the people in charge of the government are conspiracy, Q and honors, whatever the hell you said, so. Yeah, they are. I'm pretty sure that's gonna go over with Nana. He you remember my grandma either will either fix your grandma or she'll die yeah John F Kennedy was a real person remember this speaking of speaking of the dead John F Kennedy was a real person his assassination was a real act of violence therefore we're gonna be discussing some seriously disturbing imagery and subject matter throughout the course of this

series especially today we're gonna be talking about some seriously disturbing imagery and subject matter throughout the course of this series, especially today. We're going to be talking about a dude getting his head shot right in the mid, like his head blown off over and over and over again. We're going to talk about just that fact for pretty much this whole time. When they say he was a transparent politician. Yeah, yeah, yeah, literally. This was a, well, not that transparent. This was the high profile murder of a sitting US president.

Video and pictures you Google after listening to this may disturb you so proceed with caution. It also has to be one of the most notorious moments in world history, therefore it's extremely ingrained into our national culture at all levels. And so sometimes it's easy to forget that it really happened. And I'm sure that at some point during this one, two, or all three of us are going to be flipping about this in ways we haven't been about other murders on the show or the death of my own grandmother which was too recent ago for me to listen to joke about it. My mom is listening to this. She's going to roast me for it. So let me apologize for that in advance. Also please remember that until that very, very end of the episode, probably not for several more months at least,

I'm going to be reporting on what other people think happened that day. Right? So we're done other people think happened that day. Right. So we're done with JFK facts today. Oh, no more facts. Awesome. Maybe maybe in a few months, I'll come back and I'll like figure out some way to tell you my theory, but I'm not going to like make a fake theory video about it. So I got to figure it out. Right. There goes our reputation as a fact based podcast. JFK JFK for is not on the schedule that you have, Matt.

This isn't that right? No. I mean, wait, so you're not done with JFK 4 is not on the schedule that you have, Matt. This isn't that right? No, I mean. Wait, so you're not done with JFK. JFK, the actual, like, here's what happened, here's the theories about JFK, yes, I'm done. I may come back and do a here's what I think happened if I can find a good way to do it that works on the show. That's all I'm saying.

Because I'm not gonna sit here and like, give you the background of a bunch of theories that I already did on the show to tell you what I think happened. You don't wanna give us a sequel just to give us a sequel sake like Marvel exactly I'm exactly like Marvel Studios. This man milking JFK's death more than Kevin Costner. I am not milking his death okay that's what everybody else is doing. You are at the teat of JFK. I'm milking away. We're solving this thing and we're doing it today.

You're surprised how juicy a te teeth that that particular one stays. The point is, if you don't like what you hear, don't shoot the messenger at least until the end of this whole maxi series when I tell you what I really think. And finally, even though I promise I'm going to try and do the best this to the best of my ability, I'm not an expert. I'm just an internet comedian. I'm probably going to make some mistakes, maybe even some egregious ones. So again, let me just apologize for that in advance.

I really did try to do a good job. And now that half of you have already skipped this part, it's time for JFK 3, the final dimension. I mean, JFK 3, Letter from the Publisher. And I call this one Letter from the Publisher because just like them, by the end of reading all this and doing all this research, it's almost like buyer's remorse, but I call it buying into it remorse. Where like, once I start to put the final touches

on the episode and maybe you guys can like get with me on this, I don't know. Suddenly the whole premise of the episode starts to feel like very flimsy compared to how excited you've been about it for the past couple hours. And then I start to worry about whether it's gonna be exciting or if it's gonna get me into some kind of trouble with my family members.

So honestly. I mean now I'm worried. Yeah. I mean, at the end of this- We're legally safe. We're legally safe. We're labeled as a comedy podcast, and I think that means we can do whatever we want with no repercussions. Well, I also just went very far above and beyond giving a disclaimer for all of this, but at the end of this book I read today, which is the classic Mortal Error, the shot

that killed JFK by Bonner Menninger, Harjee, I was kind of relieved when I saw that the publisher of the book themselves, St. Martin's Press, were feeling like maybe they were kind of in that same boat at the end of 1991, beginning in 1992, when they were getting ready to publish this book. And they included a little summary of their own doubts about the story and why in the end they decided to go ahead and publish the book anyway, right? So basically, basically they said that when they were getting ready to publish this book, for the millionth time, they tried to write a letter to a man called George Hickey Jr. Okay. And while they always knew he

received the letters, because he would sign the delivery receipts, he never wrote back at all. But rather than that, rather than tell you why they kept writing him, I'll read you the letter myself. And instead of giving you the they kept writing him, I'll read you the letter myself, and instead of giving you the full context right away, I'm gonna let the magic of cinema fill in the blanks as we go because by Grebthar's hammer, by the Sons of War Van, this shall be a one-off episode.

There is no part two to JFK part three. This is a Kingdom Hearts free numbering system today. No tricks, no games, just content, just content in the shape of tricks. But either way, we're getting to the end of this story today. Let's go. Anyway, here goes. Ready? Here we go. I'm gonna start officially right now. Dear Mr. Hickey, St. Martin's Press is scheduled to publish a book called Mortal Error, the shot that killed JFK by Bonner Menninger. In that book, journalist Bonner Menninger presents Howard Donahue's thesis concerning the death of President John F. Kennedy. As we believe you know, Mr. Donahue's

thesis is that the bullet that struck the president in the head was not fired by Lee Harvey Oswald. Rather, Donahue believes the bullet came from the AR-15 rifle in the Secret Service follow-up car. According to Mr. Donahue, the Secret Service rifle was accidentally fired by you when you picked up the gun in response to Oswald's shot and fell backwards. Mr. Donahue's thesis is based on a sifting of the available ballistics, medical, and other evidence. It is premised, among other things, on Donahue's contention that the behavior of the bullet in the President's skull was more consistent with that of a bullet fired from an AR-15

rifle than from a Mannlicher Carcano rifle such as the one used by Oswald and on an analysis of the trajectory of the bullet as well as on a number of other factors. I want to emphasize that Mr. Donahue is by no means accusing you of any wrongdoing. In Mr. Donahue's view, the shot was a tragic accident. Mr. Donahue also believes that the president would in all likelihood have died anyway as a result of the pre-existing wound caused by one of the shots fired by Oswald, even if the bullet in question had not hit the President in the head. We recognize that in the past you have declined to speak to Mr. Donahue or Mr. Menninger or respond to press reports on Mr. Donahue's thesis. However, the situation is perhaps

now different from what it was when they first contacted you. The difference is that the book, which has been under contract to St. Martin's Press, is now scheduled for national publication early in 1992, barring my receipt of new data invalidating Donahue's thesis. We would very much urge you to reconsider your decision not to speak on this subject. We would be happy to make reasonable arrangements at our expense for Mr. Menninger to interview you. If you agree to an interview by Mr. Menninger, he would there act or provide you with a copy

of the transcript of what was said in the interview and a chance to supplement it. Alternatively, if you prefer, you can respond directly to me. Any information in any form that you are willing and able to provide that would shed light one way or the other on the validity of Mr. Donahue's thesis would be greatly appreciated. Please be assured that we will carefully consider anything that you have to say. The assassination of John F. Kennedy has never been a happy subject, but for almost thirty years it has remained an important subject, and a lively one. The liveliness will be increased sharply in 1992 with the Oliver Stone movie on the event. The nation has been wracked, and will be wracked anew, by numerous conspiracy theories.

It is my view that if a publisher has in hand a proposed book that may lead at last to the truth of what happened in Dallas and the extinction of false accusations of intentional murder by people other than Oswald, it is the publisher's duty to make this information available. But, because your actions are an integral part of Donahue's thesis, I would not be comfortable going to press without making this last determined effort to tell you that the book is scheduled and urge you to come forward. I would appreciate hearing from you at your earliest convenience. You may telephone me, collect, or write me at this address.

Sincerely, Thomas McCormick, Chairman, St. Martin's Press." So that's the letter. So like the letter itself, I feel like I kind of owe you an explanation. So let's do our own little letter from the publisher, complete with lots of primary source research from the Warren Commission, among other sources, which today answers the question, how on earth did we get from, hey, Lee Harvey Oswald definitely worked alone and shot Kennedy from the book depository window to, hey, please write us back because we're about to publish an entire book about how you accidentally shot JFK in the head, right? We're going to audit this story too. And

we're going to go back to the beginning and find out how Donahue arrived at this thesis. Okay. And it's going to kind of be like a chronological thing from Donahue's point of view. So that's kind of cool. One day, in late June of 1967, CBS was putting together an investigative special on the assassination over four nights that will be hosted by Walter Cronkite, who also famously announced Kennedy's death through tears live on air almost four years earlier, to read, they were going to reassess popular aspects of the case. And in some cases, run actual controlled experiments

to aid in drawing new conclusions. Originally, they were aiming to say that because the Zapruder film was likely being played back slightly too fast, that there was actually more time than we thought for the shooting to take place, which would explain why Oswald was able to make such an amazing shot, right? However, and he made, which

according to the Warren Commission, he shot three times in like six seconds or something. However, one of the expert marksmen they called in who said yes to the gig that day on the spur of the moment because one of his hunting buddies just asked him to, was actually able to do it faster than Oswald supposedly did, and he did it in 5.2 seconds and in just in case you don't believe me here's a clip of him doing it you can just watch that right here it's gonna be in the show notes for you they kind of matched they built this the Dealey Plaza like distance and then oh and then so

alright yeah so it's a it's a field and they've set up some sort of like Minecraft esque cart system In a blue background going down the car Back of JFK giant fortnight tower. Yeah, and then they got a dude they got a dude up top and what would be The book depository and he's just blasting away and he gets off the shots. Yeah, so this guy's name is Howard Donahue. He was a lifetime gun hobbyist from, he's a hunter, he's a hobbyist and hunter, he's from Baltimore, East Maryland area. He constantly won top honors at the NRA, Junior Marksman competitions, started studying engineering at the University of Maryland before and then in the wake of Pearl Harbor, he enlisted in the Army Air Corps Reserves, where he was called up in 1943.

He ended up as a B-17 co-pilot. He flew 35 combat missions over Europe, never once was wounded, and was even awarded a Distinguished Flying Cross for saving the lives of 18 men after the pilot of the plane they were all in was hit in the head with a piece of anti-aircraft shell over Germany and they almost collided with another plane. Eventually, that's what people used to be like before the internet, eventually by the early 50s he was married, he had a degree in psychology but he ended up working for years at a huge pharmaceutical firm to pay the bills, as well as a marksman, he's a ballistics expert, he's a local gunsmith, pharmaceutical firm, to pay the bills, as well as a marksman.

He's a ballistics expert, he's a local gunsmith, and then eventually he opens his own gun store, and finally later in his life goes to school for forensic science so that he can become a consulting investigator and like courtroom expert as he gets older because he realizes it's really his passion and he's really good at it and he's always been this kind of,

he was kind of one of these gun guys who like, before the internet would like figure out some way to like make an old gun fire way better. And then they would like send away in a magazine and like, like people would like pay him a hundred bucks to like fix their gun for him. Mod out their gun. Yeah. Like,

Is he gonna say mod? It's modding. Yeah, like literally. And anyway, in the wake of something like that happening where you're like, if it was me, JFK would have been dead even quicker. In a weird way, it makes him like a certifiable badass that he made these shots in a way, right? And eventually, True Magazine, as in like True, the man's magazine, asked him if, since

he sort of proved their lone gunman theory correct already, would he maybe write an article supporting the findings of the Warren Commission along the lines of like, well, it may sound fishy, but if you have the right knowledge, it's actually not that suspicious of a theory and we should consider trusting it. You know what I mean? Like that type of article is what they were kind of asking him to do. So Howard Donahue, who is kind of a G by the way, he's like, okay, fine. Like I'll do that for sure. But first I'm going gonna go do all my own research, because if I don't, like, why the fuck should I, like, put my name down? You know

what I mean? So, can you imagine if, like, every gun owner today had that vibe? That'd be, like, so lit. Anyway, first things first, he tackles the magic bullet theory, which I think everyone pretty much knows well at this point. If you don't, watch that scene from JFK where he does the courtroom demo with Newman from Seinfeld again. Basically, the theory is how the bullet that passed downward through Kennedy's neck from Oswald's gun passed straight through Kennedy in the back, out the front, into the back of Governor Connolly, shattered through all his fucking ribs, like four inches of his rib, out the front again, through his wrist, through the bone of his wrist, out the other side of his wrist, and into the leg. And during that it supposedly made

like two 90 degree turns. So that's the magic bullet theory and why it sounds unlikely. But lucky for Mathis and Jesse however, there's also a documentary version of Donahue's findings, which was made much more recently after his death by Australian ex-police investigator, Colin McLaren, called JFK the Smoking Gun. I'm about to give Jesse and Mathis a copy of this movie to look at for illustration purposes,

or you can stream it right now for free on like 2B or something like that if you want to follow along Again, this movie is from 2013 and it's called JFK the smoking gun. I've got a Google Drive link here for you guys Give me one second. So for you guys just watch from about 12 12 minutes 50 to 1335. All right, so we're getting a Computer illustration of the bullet going through Kennedy. Now it is exploding through the ribs of the governor in front of him. It just looks like an unlikely- Right below his right nipple.

Yeah, it just looks like an unlikely shot, right? Goes, goes to about 1335. It's from 1215 to 1335. Unless it hit like a bone inside of him and it changed the direction of it. Right. But it is a weird, like it doesn't make a lot of sense. Like bullets don't usually do that. Yeah. So Donahue starts to reference the image,

the images and the angles from the day. He somewhere along the line made the realization that Governor Connolly and his wife were actually sitting on these like weird jump seats that are like actually closer to the center of the car and like hunkered down way lower than the president and the first ladies, like luxurious leather limousine bench seat. So they're like down on these seats. And amazingly, when he like reorients everyone inside his mind palace and ran all the calculations, it actually lined up way more perfectly in a way that made the notion seem much more acceptable. So for anyone at home who has this just really quick check out 1358 and it runs around 25 seconds. Yeah, it's interesting to see the way I keep thinking also that maybe it isn't the the the degree change from like these different angles and it could just like

it you know if they're stationary or driving in a straight line it's weird but if you're in a car you could in theory panic and move a little. That's true. I mean you're shot and like so as the bullet goes through if you're moving in the car you know. I'm with you it's 11 miles an hour the car is moving the bullets moving like 2,000 miles an hour. Oh sure sure absolutely like but micro changes could cause things. I don't know how any of it works mind you but I feel like that's potentially. But I actually actually think Donahue's theory is actually right on like if you look at 1358 he actually shows his like updated theory. He's turned a bit.

Yeah and that would make it line up. And if you look at this a Pruder film and I'll give you links to that in a minute like you can actually see this configuration in the frame where the bullet hits like you can actually see this CG diagram like in that frame, right? And so he's like, oh shit, he's literally like, I fucking just solved the magic bullet theory. That's like where his head's at, right? And just a different positioning of the person. Yeah, and now he's kind of feeling himself

because I do, I really do think he solves it right here. And he's beginning to suspect that maybe the Warren commission team just kind of had been lacking in the ballistics knowledge department in general. So he starts to like look at other weird things that are like kind of weird about like the official story and immediately goes right back to the same bullet, which was allegedly recovered from Governor Connolly's stretcher at Parkland Hospital.

Maybe you remember this bullet. Suspiciously, this bullet is always described as being an almost pristine condition. Hence, it's Gandalf the White-style transformation from the magic bullet into the pristine bullet when it is in this state. And honestly, once Donahue was able to get into the National Archives and actually inspect the real bullet, which he actually did, this mystery fell apart even faster than the magic bullet. And here's Jesse with a quote about that. I'm obsessed really quickly with... So the man they're interviewing in this footage is Donahue?

Is he an older man with white hair? No, he's... There's just footage of a younger guy who looks exactly like one of the dudes from Shawshank Redemption and it's tripping me out. It could be him. There's a huge amount of reenactments in this documentary. Okay, I mean it looks exact. Anyway, Donohue went back to the archives under the supervision of archivist Marion Johnson. He personally examined the pristine bullet known as CE-399.

Much to his astonishment, the bullet was by no means undamaged, as commission critics claimed. To the trained eye, the jacketed slug was obviously somewhat bent and severely flattened. So much so that a small amount of lead had been extruded from the bullet's base. Clearly, it had hit something. Okay, so pristine bullet solved. He's like, people just didn't know what the fuck they're looking at. Rifles, like we were talking about, about frangible and non-frangible and full metal jackets, that first time we were talking about JFK, like, sometimes that bullet just comes right through,

because it's going fast enough and it's going straight enough, and you can look at it and you can see that it's distorted and messed up, it just doesn't look as fucking messed up as you would expect. But it's worth keeping that in mind, that this bullet looks that nice. So then, now that all that lines up, he's able to establish that bullet likely did come from Oswald's gun. The pristine magic bullet actually probably did, based on the positioning of everything and how well it lines up.

And thanks to the testimony of firearms expert Robert A. Frazier, who was interviewed by Melvin Eisenberg, we know conclusively that it did during the Warren Commission. Mathis is going to be Mr. Frazier and I'll be Assistant Counsel Eisenberg. Did you examine the exhibit to determine whether it had been fired in Exhibit 139? Yes, sir. And what was your conclusion? It was exhibit 399 was fired in the rifle 139. That is to the exclusion of all other rifles? Yes sir.

And then it continues here a bit and then I ask do you avoid the category of probable identification? Oh yes we never use it, never. And why is that? There is no such thing as a probable identification it either is or isn't as far as we're concerned. And in this case it is? It is yes. Pretty definitive link between the bullet and the rifle that it came from up in the window right? Anyway at this point he's starting to feel real good about at least putting Oswald in the nest and having him fire this one bullet for sure. But in investigating this Zapruder film and the timing of everything and the testimonies

he was reading, he was starting to feel like maybe the Warren Commission did get the timing and the order of the shots wrong. Mainly, this is due to repeated statements from Governor Connolly over the years, and there's been many of them as we've seen in this show before. But here's one for Jesse to read that he gave during a special press conference on November 23rd, 1966. Kind of sums up the gist of his message, which he never wavered on until his death. Though maybe he's just a stubborn guy from Texas, I will never know for sure.

Stubborn people in Texas? What are you talking about? I am convinced beyond any doubt that I was not struck by the first bullet. I know that I heard the first shot, that I turned to my right to see what was happening, seeing nothing and I was in the process of turning to my left. Then I was struck by a second shot. The third shot struck the President, but did not strike me. As I said earlier, this testimony was presented to the Wawen Commission. They chose to disagree with my interpretation of my memory of what had occurred, and this

is their privilege. But I maintain my original view and always shall. I want to make it very clear, however, that simply because I disagree with the War on Commission on this one detail does not mean that I disagree with the substance of their overall findings. True Blue American all the way through, John Connolly. Pretty wild guy, one of the original- Now how about we eat hot dogs and ham buns?

Real talk, he's like one of the original old white guy, Republican guy guys of the current style. He actually, there was a famous time when he defected from Democrats to Republicans. But he wasn't the only one who heard it that way either, which is why Donahue found it particularly intriguing. Like, for example, why the fuck is Kellerman, head of the Secret Service on the day, head of the Secret Service detail,

who is also in the car with them, why is he also saying that he heard shots in a different order than the official Warren Commission story in the Warren Report? Here's Mathis with the quote, "'I will be Arlen Specter who questioned Mathis about this. The Arlen Specter, crazy. Agent Kellerman, Arlen Specter looks like shit

in the movie by the way. They got a bad guy to be him. It doesn't look like him at all. This is the head of secret service talking about what he saw in order. The head of secret service, okay. On the day. On the day, okay. As we turned off Houston, that's not a ham, we gotta give them like that train, like, as we turned off Houston, under air,

Lemon made the short little dip to the left going down grade. As I said, we were away from buildings, and were. There was a sign on the side of the road, which I don't recall what it was or what it said, but we know more than past that and you are out in the open, and there is a report like a firecracker. Pop. And I turned my head to the right because whatever this noise was I was sure that it came from the right and perhaps into the rear and as I turned my head to the right to view whatever it was or see whatever it was, isn't that the same thing, I heard a voice from the back seat and I firmly believe it was the President's, my god, I am hit. And I turned around and he has got his hands up here like this.

Indicating his right hand up towards his neck? That is right, sir. In fact, both hands were up in that direction. Are you positioning yourself in the witness chair? Your right hand is up with the finger at the ear level, as if clushing from the right of the head? Would that be an accurate description of the position you pictured there?

Yes, good. There was enough for me to verify that the man was hit. So in the same motion, I come right back and grab the speaker and said to the driver, let's get out of here. We're hit. And grab the mic and I said, Lawson, this is Kellerman. This is Lawson, who is in the front car. We are hit. Get us to the hospital immediately. Now in the seconds that I talked just now, a flurry of shells come into the car. I look back and this time Mr. Hill,

who was riding on the left front bumper of our follow-up car, was on the back trunk of that car. The President was sideways down into the back seat. So two things from this. First of all, he also hears a shot before the single magic pristine bullet of God and all the angels comes down, probably fatally cracks the president's spine in its own right, and shatters the bones of the governor, just like the governor himself heard.

So pop! What was that? Then everybody gets hit with that one insane bullet shot. And second, if Kellerman did hear the president yell anything, that means he was hit with something before he got hit in the throat and was silenced by that same bullet, right? Which actually was from Oswald's gun, right? So if we go by his theory and we go by Connolly's memory too, you can reconstruct a situation where they're in the car, and these are two people that were in the car with Kennedy, by the way. They heard a shot.

They went, what is that? Kellerman heard the president say, my God, I'm hit. Then the president gets shot in the throat. And I will say that JFK saying, my God, I am hit, does sound a lot like the stories that we hear all the time of Governor Connolly's famous, my God, I am a hit, does sound a lot like the stories that we hear all the time of Governor Connolly's famous, my God, they're going to kill us all, which he says he said all the time also, and which we've covered on the show before. And he was sitting even closer to Kellerman than JFK was,

he was actually between the two of them. But Kellerman also probably could very easily tell the difference between Irish American JFK, who he sees every fucking day, and the Texas Abe Lincoln that is John Connolly. So who knows? You know, I don't know. You know, but if you go by that, that means the president felt something hit him before he got shot in the throat, but also there was a shot that hit no one probably before the magic bullet. But what we do know is that if there was a first shot, it really didn't do much

damage since, like we already know, all if there was a first shot, it really didn't do much damage, since like we already know, all the forensics from all these wounds, except for the headshot, do seem to come from Oswald's gun. And even just that one perfect bullet, and all the damages are from the one bullet. So other than the headshot, that's the only wounds we know about on the inside of anyone's body. But on the outside of both the president and Governor Connolly's body, something else was discovered too. And this is real. By chance, Donahue, our investigator, happened to make the acquaintance through a mutual friend who knew he was like

obsessed with JFK, put him in touch with the Maryland Chief Medical Examiner Russell Fisher, who had been placed on a board by the state of Maryland that was created specifically to reassess the president's autopsy material from the Bethesda Naval Hospital on the night of the assassination and address many of the allegations made against the autopsy by critics in the news and media because Jim Garrison's Weird court romantics were happening at this time So this is like in the 70s sometime the stuff that's in the JFK movie is occurring in real life and it's causing people to care about JFK again. So they're like, let's re-examine the autopsy in Maryland because that's where the hospital was. It was just an insane circus at that time so everybody was

like, we should, we should think about this. So he meets with Donahue, they chat for a little bit and bonded over being like JFK guys or whatever, and he told Donahue a bunch of things about the third headshot bullet specifically that like blew his mind. Most notably, he found out that going back over the notes, Dr. Humes, who carried out the autopsy that night, he found that the bullet stroke, that the bullet that struck the skull

disintegrated completely. That was the first thing that's crazy about it. Because if you know the other bullet that supposedly came from that gun did not even look truly destroyed after traveling through three separate parts of a human body and several bones. And he was found over 40 fragments of that bullet in the right cerebral hemisphere, much of which were the size of the tip of a pen, while the largest one was only as big as the nail on your little finger. And if that wasn't insane enough, he also found that the entry wound mentioned

in every account of this shooting in which trajectory has ever been calculated is actually one inch further to the right and even higher by several inches, like maybe like four inches, than everyone had for years believed. Right? So that all comes back around later. But those are like two things that were like glaring mistakes that stood for a decade or more, you know, at least in in the public record about where these wounds came in on the president's body. So for now, and that's actually been updated in in like

everyone's understanding of the case now, too. So for now, let's focus on something even weirder that they found on the outside of the president's corpse, like I teased. Quote, a curious metal fragment embedded on the outer table of the skull just beneath the entrance wound. He described it as round and about 6.5 millimeters

in diameter and noted there had been no mention of this fragment in the original autopsy report at all. But there was on the outside of the skull by the wound a piece of metal. Pretty weird. Donahue suddenly remembered seeing somewhere that similar, largely superficial, but strangely external wounds had been reportedly found in Governor Connolly's skin also after the shooting and decided to search the Warren Commission because now he was like, maybe

this was a thing. He searches the Warren Commission interviews for more evidence of anything that sounded like it could be evidence of a ricochet somewhere around the car indicating a miss, right? Like he's thinking maybe that this first bullet was aimed pretty close to the car and missed but that somehow it still hit JFK somehow, like with a superficial ricochet shot or something like the guy. If you remember, there's a guy down at the end of the street by the overpass who also was hit in the cheek

with a ricochet shot somehow. But something like that maybe happened to him. And maybe he shot through the tree. If you look at how it was that day, there was like a tree with a hole in it. And, you know, you could kind of see the president as he passed through the hole in the tree, but if you waited too long, it would be like, he would be covered again. So maybe he got vexed by that. Or, you know, people found out that the barrel wasn't aligned properly on the gun. So maybe he like fired one through the barrel,

like, or not the barrel, I'm sorry, the scope wasn't affixed properly to the gun, and so maybe he sighted through the scope and shot wide and then switched to the barrel so that he could like shoot straight the second time. Maybe something like that happened. But ideally, to support this theory, it would have to be seen to hit maybe off to the right behind the car, about 15 to 20 feet, for it to make sense for it to come from the window and explode into tiny little pieces when it jumped off the pavement towards the president and the governor, right? Because that's to be close enough to the car to have gotten to JFK. So you're saying, you're saying it would have hit to the right of the car on the pavement?

If it missed. Sure. Yeah. Okay. Because the left would be Jackie and she would have been blasted by that, so. Jared Sussman Yeah. Yeah. And then we would have known because she lived.

Pete Slauson Yeah. Jared Sussman So, for one thing, that could explain the president's claim that he was hit according to Kellerman, right? Him saying, my God, I'm hit. And it could open the interpretation of the raised arms from grabbing his neck to possibly just reacting to the ricochet and trying to cover his face. So right now I'm gonna use my psychic powers to guess that you want to see the Zapruder film. So I'm gonna give you a link for that. Oh, are we back into the left thing right now?

Well, we're just kind of checking to see, and here's it frame by frame, if you want to try and see, basically he's saying what we've all seen of the president grasping at his neck this whole time has been us imagining he just got shot through the neck, but what he's proposing is that maybe what happened is that that's him reaching to cover his face before eventually being shot through the back while his hands were already up maybe through the neck. And then that being the only time the president was shot beside the headshot. Right. So you can look at this a prudence film you can see it yeah it's like almost like it's almost like right before the guy like almost right before the car goes behind the sign yeah yeah if you're looking at this a prudence film maybe

that's right around where the the miss is and then do you think that like one of the things I think is interesting is that, obviously today, since there's so many different camera angles and so many different things, it's a different vibe when it comes to, you know, any sort of political theater, right? But for much of the United States, especially during the 40s, 50s, 60s, a lot of it was, you know, like if you're president, you don't want to ever show weakness ever. Right.

Right. So for example, you wouldn't want to admit that you couldn't walk if you were Roosevelt, right? So you'd had Addison's disease and never said shit. Yeah. So in this case, the idea of being shot, um, him being like, Oh, I can't believe they shot me. Like you would imagine that an instant reaction of,

oh, like is, would not happen. Undignified, undignified. Yeah, undignified. And so I can see how a first shot, he'd be like, what the hell? Cause it would be like, cause it would be like, it wouldn't be like getting shot. It would be like getting hit with like,

hot cigarette ash. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It would startle you and shock you. But like, if you're someone who's trained your entire life to be composed, especially this dude, because like he also had a secret life. Let's not pretend. He was in pain every moment of every day.

The bullet that went through his body, one of the theories about why his hands went up was because he got hit and his spine was so weak and messed up and everything from Addison's that he just kind of unzipped. Yeah. And like, so like he just wasn't a strong man at all. But for him to for him to be clapped in the face by something like that and to not freak out. Yeah. It's probably because he's fucking JFK. Yeah. I mean, and that's and that's, I don't know that that's unique to JFK. It's probably a thing that most presidents in the forties, fifties and sixties were like, y'all can't like, we're in the cold war, dude, you can't have

weakness. Um, so it's also, you know, it's what normally would have happened is the, the cars would have just driven fast away and they would have gotten somewhere, which they did eventually, but they would have driven fast away and then they would have said someone shot the president, but he's fine. Like that's, it would have happened after the fact, but clearly more shots happened. Right. So if you look, if you subscribe to this theory and you got the frame by frames of Prudyphim, which I just gave you from assessment.

I'm looking at it right now. Yeah. The first miss would push the impact of what he's now calling the second shot a little later than it was before, right? Around frame 237. And you can get these in the show notes. Which means he could date back the impact of the Mrs. Ricochet to somewhere around frame 189, which is way earlier than the Warren Commission allowed any shots to have occurred, right?

So that's when, that's where the car needed to be in around frame one 89. It needs to hit to the right behind the car to be in the perfect angle for it to splash up onto the governor and the president. And if he finds if he found that piece of evidence, it would be worth considering this theory. And the more you look at it, the more you can see that like he kind of right before the sign something happens and then there's the big like infamous oh no that's a man's head getting shot yeah yeah which by the way if you're not ready for that don't no reason to look yeah

this is a proof film straight up has his head getting blown off that's a real that's a good warning to actually put in there amazingly howeverly, however, he did find witness testimony that did describe exactly what he was looking for. So for example, I'll be attorney Wesley Liebler. Liebler, actually, this attorney's name is Wesley Liebler, which is just maybe even worse. What a fucking name for a lawyer. Even worse than what's his name, Kevin Pergerer, the Disneyland guy. Yeah, the witness's name is Steve Slanderer. Yeah, Wesley Libeler, and Jesse's gonna be Miss Donald Baker, the bookkeeper at the school book depository on July 22nd, 1964.

Ready? The Texas woman. So you are standing directly in front of the Texas school book depository building and on the same side of the Elm Street that the Texas School Book Depository is located. Yes. Tell me what you saw. Well, after he passed us, then we heard a noise, and I thought it was firecrackers,

because I saw the shot or something hit the pavement. Now, according to her, this occurred behind and to the right of the presidential limousine, as it pulled nearly even with the freeway sign. That obscures your view. Again, in this scenario, it makes perfect sense. As you went down Elm Street, because you saw this thing hit the street, what did it look like when you saw it?

Well, as I said, I thought it was a firecracker. It looked just like you could see the sparks from it, and I just thought it was a firecracker, and I was thinking that there was somebody who was fixing to get in a lot of trouble! Actually, no way, you know how she sounds. They'd say, someone's fixing to get in a lot of trouble! Yeah. You saw this thing hit the street before you heard the second shot, is that correct? Yes, sir, yes. Are you absolutely sure of that?

I hope I am, I know I am. In any event, you are quite clear in your mind that you saw this thing hit before you heard the second shot. Shit, you're making me second guess myself, why do you keep asking? Yes, of course! Yeah, dude, but except she didn't second guess herself. No, she just said yes. Yeah, she was like yes. Because this is, she just said yes. She was like yes. She just straight up said yes. Because this is exactly the piece of evidence that he was looking for.

He also finds the testimony of railroad mail clerk Roy Skelton, who is not a skeleton. Roy Skeletor. Yeah, he said he saw the quote, third or fourth shot kick up a puff of concrete dust off the car's right front fender. Which didn't match up as well, but he's not even the only one. Harry D Holmes is watching through his office window with binoculars and said, quote, I realized something was wrong but I thought they were dodging somebody throwing things at

the car like firecrackers or something, but I did see dust fly up like a fire cracker had burst up in the air off of President Kennedy. Crazy. Harry Holmes. Yeah. Motorcycle cop Starvis Ellis also said he saw a bullet hit the pavement and there were reports that Dallas County Sheriff Bill Decker did too, right? So was it an airtight proof that this happened? No.

But it was certainly a start to the notion and definitely enough for our investigator Donahue to get him to subscribe to the concept of an earlier bullet timeline. So now he just had to figure in bullet number three, the headshot, and this article that he was trying to write was probably in the bag. But like I touched on earlier, one of the biggest problems with the third bullet is that it exploded into a million pieces and caused a huge amount of damage to the skull. And here's Mathis with a quote from Mortal Error about that.

As Donahue pondered this problem, he was struck by another subtle but equally stark inconsistency in the government's explanation of the head wound. The problem was this. If one was to believe the Commission, the first bullet to hit Kennedy pierced his neck and went on to inflict extensive damage to the bone and flesh of Governor Connolly. For all that, the bullet remained essentially intact. Donahue already accepted this explanation given that the Carcano round was a full metal jacketed bullet specifically designed not to fragment or expand. But precisely for this reason, he could not understand how exactly the same kind of bullet fired from exactly the same weapon six seconds later,

could have exploded in a hail of lead that shattered the president's skull and left an exit portal the size of a small plate. How differently could two supposedly identical pieces of ammunition perform? To Donahue, the second round appeared to have acted not as a bullet encased in a thick metal jacket would have, but more like a frangible, soft and hollow-nosed missile with a thin metal jacket traveling at extremely high velocity. Unlike a full metal-jacketed bullet, softer hollow-nosed missiles are specifically designed

to flatten and disintegrate in order to inflict the kind of shattering wounds the Geneva Convention sought to outlaw in the 1920s. And that was actually something that happened in World War I, is that people were getting maimed by just like the most powerful guns that anybody had ever seen. So they were like, we gotta fix these bullets

to make them more like maim and not like destroy the life of everyone who gets shot. And so already he's suspicious of this headshot bullet, which simply is not behaving right, especially because we saw the pristine bullet, which suffered almost no damage despite passing through even more bone than the headshot. And so he starts to look for more inconsistencies to corroborate this weirdness. When he discovers something else that doesn't really make sense is that the head wound,

identified as the entry wound, which as we already know has moved around the head already a fair amount depending on who you ask, has constantly always been listed as a 6mm opening. However, a Carcano rifle round is actually 6.5mm, which literally would not fit through that hole. There has been some discussion about the skull itself stretching and contracting to a smaller size as the result of a round passing through it. And while there is merit to this notion, this situation was not forensically similar to ones where that kind of skull constriction may have taken place since they had only ever

been attributed to much lower velocity handguns. And according to Baltimore City pathologist Dr. Gregory Kaufman, who was consulted on this matter, when it comes to rifle bullets, quote, the size of the entry wound in the skull is always slightly larger than the caliber of the bullet causing it. That just doesn't even make sense. A bullet that's smaller than the hole couldn't fit through the hole. And furthermore, in the Warren Report itself, the only bullet entry wounds a Carcano rifle ever made in any test were at least 8mm in diameter.

Also, when Russell Fisher went to that panel to reassess the autopsy in Maryland, he found the wounds in different places, right? Him and the others also asked to see all the tissue samples, including the president's brain, which would be extremely useful for these forensics, as well as the edge scrapings from the skull wound which were reportedly recovered and could probably definitively determine the type of bullet used to cause the wound. But for some reason, they were denied access to all of that. We now know that the brain, nobody even knows where it is. Do you think that has to do with like him being, I mean, again, Alex, you're probably more knowledgeable about this, but is it a Catholic thing? They didn't want people messing with the

body? We actually will get into that like right now. Thank you to now our longtime sponsor, Hero Forge for sponsoring today's episode. I'm so thrilled to announce that Hero Forge and Chaluminati are going to be working together for the next year. I'm I love here. Like I've got another D&D session tomorrow. I do every single Sunday.

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So yeah, according to the 2013 doc, JFK the smoking gun, a popular piece of evidence people commonly cite to refute the notion that Oswald only fired two shots is that there were three shell casings found up in Oswald's nest in the book depository window. But in an uno reverse to that, they also want to make it clear that as that third shell casing was extremely dented, anyone will tell you it's much more likely that it was just there

because it was being used as the chamber plug before Oswald got ready to take the actual shots whose shells were obviously ejected undented. So I don't know if that is true or not. There's no real way to know, but there's an answer for that sort of inconsistency there if we're still talking about two shots. And honestly, personally, it's always been weird to me that he would try three shots,

especially because of how long it takes and how conspicuous it would make him. Like in my mind, a much more logical way of looking at it from me personally, is that he intended to shoot once and be done with it, but then he missed, so he took a second shot. Why he would ever take a third shot after he hit the president square in the back like that

has never really made sense other than that maybe he wanted to make sure he was good and dead, dead, dead. But honestly, we've covered how wigged out Oswald was while he was alive and police custody in the book, right? The note from the publisher invites you to imagine how you would be acting if you're a paranoid weirdo who set out to kill the president and then some other bullet from somewhere else you have no idea about, like, takes the kill shot.

Here's Jesse with a quote from the book about that. Oswald thinking himself to be a lone gunman nevertheless sees Kennedy killed by a shot. He knows he didn't fire, but he is the only one arrested. He does not know how they did it, but he is convinced, wrongly, that somehow he has been used. Yeah, and so maybe that's why he said he was a patsy, you know what I mean? He could be wrong, but also have a really good reason to be paranoid based on what happened Rather than the public the popularly accepted interpretations of that time when he's so I'm just a patch see remember that

Like so it's possible that like screaming it There's so many crazy versions of this that one of the possibilities is it could have been like he tried to kill him for realsies And accidentally the president got shot by like another dude in the secret service. And then Oswald was like, it's all conspiracy dude. Yeah, exactly. Interesting. Yeah. Yeah. Because people always see that and they think, oh, he's trolling or he's like trying to hint that there really was a conspiracy that he was like part of. But to me, this makes way more sense. And he shot a cop like four, like two seconds after he got,

like he was, he must have been, I mean, already he killed the president, which is already like insane, but like, Yeah. He, like the way he was acting, the things that he said, like I can imagine it. But yeah, yeah, I don't know. It doesn't have that,

it doesn't have that like movie element to it. It's more of a mundane version of events that works for me. But this is kind of where Donahue's head's at now. He's in this space. He's imagining, okay, maybe he's sitting up there and he just watches the president's head explode down the gun site and freaks out, right? And he books it, right? He's almost positive there's a second shooter now, Donahue. So he starts looking at the trajectories again, and then he remembers Russell Fisher's revelation about the head wound location, and realizes that in all of the trajectory calculations that have ever been made by anyone, that nobody had the correct data for where the bullet actually went into the president. So he was the first person to put those two things together, and when he calculates it all out,

it seems to be coming first from like kind of out across the street like far away from buildings where it didn't really make sense like high up where the lines of sight were fucked up and the perches were be like really vulnerable and so he's like that doesn't make sense so he just keeps eliminating more and more places the bullet could have come from like a fortnight map yeah but i mean mean, also, like, that's kind of like how you solve shit is like process of elimination. What can't it be? Exactly.

So we shrinking it down like to like where possibly the shooter could be. And finally, he cannot ignore something that he hadn't considered before, which is that every one of these possible new trajectory lines also passed over one other thing, which is the back row of the secret service follow-up car. Uh, and you can watch, uh, the movie again from 38 30 to 38 50 to see a little clip, uh, right here of, uh, little, a little pick of that little, little, little image. So he's saying kind of what we were talking about is there's another shooter in the secret service car, the guy behind them in the follow-up vehicle.

Yeah. And they show like that little diagram, which is like perfect, right? Like a little overhead diagram of it. It's pretty good. So now Donahue is starting to get the inklings of a wild theory, decides it's probably the right time to actually contact the Secret Service, explain that he's investigating the JFK assassination, and asks for the names of the agents present and what weapons they all had. Kind of secretly hoping that he'll hear something that matches his theories about what could have fired that third bullet. And he does actually get a letter back

from the head of the secret service, James Rowley, the actual head of the secret service, not just on the day, which has all the names of every agent in the car, Samuel Kinney, Emory Roberts, Clinton Hill, William McIntyre, John Reddy, Paul Landis, Glenn Bennett, and George Hickey, as well as JFK's advisors Dave Powers and Kenneth O'Donnell from the Irish Mafia, if you know what that was, like his little homie crew. But here's Mathis with the elephant in the room.

Oddly, Rowley's letter did not address Donahue's questions about the weapons agents carried. Donahue wrote back, in time, he received a second reply stating that as a matter of policy, the Secret Service did not disclose the types of weapons it used other than the 38 caliber revolvers issued to all agents. The letter went on to emphasize that no shots had been fired by the Secret Service at the time of the assassination. And this this troubles Donahue though, especially because though according to this official letter nobody near the president fired a shot he found in his in his in his investigation that like 10 witnesses smelled gunpowder down in the street which barely even makes sense unless somebody fired a shot much closer to where everyone was standing because if you are in Dealey Plaza you can see the book to Basel on the window is pretty fucking far away for you to be smelling the

gunpowder from that thing that far away unless you're like a bloodhound. It feels really specific that they would hide what gun in this one instance too, since it's literally mentioned in tons of places in like official sources and in newspaper articles and stuff too. So it's weird that they didn't mention it in the article, but I'll go through a few witnesses smelling the smoke just to give you a sense of it.

Four cars back from the president, Miss Earl Cabell, who was the wife of the mayor of Dallas, said, quote, I was acutely aware of the odor of gunpowder. That's four cars back. One car further back, five cars back, Dallas Morning News photographer Tom Dillard was also quoted as saying, I might add that I very definitely smelled gunpowder when the car moved up at the corner. And Miss Baker, the same lady from the book depository who saw the bullet hit the street, confirmed in her Warren Commission hearing that she smelled gun smoke down in the street but that she couldn't tell where it was coming from. Plus there's actually quotes from the

Secret Service agents themselves that corroborate all this. So here's the first one for Jesse to read from Glenn Bennett, who again was in the car with Hickey. Uh, let me, sorry, you got me right in the middle of a search because I'm gonna let everyone know what I'm looking up before I read this. But I literally looked up because the idea of smelling on the ground hints that maybe there was a shot fire from the ground. I just wanted to look up and boy I'm gonna regret this probably but I

typed in what does human flesh smell like after being shot oh like maybe they roasted the flesh mmm like cuz you're are being hit but like it could smell like it is you think it's like some JFK steak like some like that's honestly yeah cuz I'm like char grill JFK cuz I know that dude, you know RFK would have been all over I know for a fact based on testimonies first people obviously don't first an experience But like if a body gets hit by a fire bomb or an explode like that corpse Smells like it has a burnt charred fleshy smell, but it also smells like whatever the hell blew it up. Right.

And so I'm curious if that relates to guns as well. Cause you know, like you can get residue on your hand from firing it. You can get like a body has a char thing from where the impact is. So like how, I don't know. Typically like four cars away, you're not going to smell charred flesh like that.

But if you drive through where it was. True, very possible. Again, I have no clue. Um, all right. The motorcade entered the intersection and proceeded down a grade. At this point, I heard what sounded like a firecracker. I mainly looked from the right crowd physical area and looked towards the president who was seated in the right rear of his limousine open convertible. At the moment I looked at the back of the president, I heard another firecracker noise and saw the shot hit the president about four inches down from the right shoulder. A second shot followed immediately and hit the high right rear of the president's head. I immediately hollered he's hit and reached for the AR-15 located on

the floor of the rear seat. Special Agent Hickey had already picked up the AR-15. Okay, and I also noticed that he said the second shot was the one that hit Kennedy's back, by the way. Not the first shot. Sure, again, this goes back to that three-shot idea. Yeah, and here's another one for Mathis from Rufus Youngblood, who was the very coolly named guy Who was in the one car back from the follow-up car? I heard an explosion and I noticed movements in the presidential car were very abnormal and at practically the same time the movements in The presidential follow-up car were abnormal during this time I heard two more explosion noises and observed SA Hickey in the presidential follow-up car

Poised on the car with an AR-15 rifle looking toward the buildings. Yeah. So on top of this, Donahue notices that in the Warren Report, Kellerman confirms that the AR-15 in the motorcade was always ready to go, as in locked and loaded with only a safety on to stop it from being fired. If you don't believe me, this is the quote. Quote, this is a rifle and it is on all movements. This vehicle is out of the

case. It won't be shown. It could be laying flat on the floor, but she is ready to go. So that that rifle was ready, but probably the testimony that sold Donahue the most on this story was from special agent Winston G. Lawson, when he said, quote, As the lead car was passing under this bridge, I heard the first loud, sharp report, and in more rapid succession, two more sounds like gunfire. I could see persons to the left of the motorcade vehicle running away. I noticed Agent Hickey standing up in the follow-up car with the automatic weapon and first thought he had fired at someone. Right, so that's another quote from a fucking special agent.

Altogether, there's something like 11 separate pieces of evidence that put the gun in Hickey's hands near the time of the shooting. And as you can see from some of those testimonies that we just read, some of these moments are extremely close to the moment of the headshot, right? Where they put the gun already in Hickey's hand. He was like, I reached for the gun when I heard the shots, Hickey already had the gun, right? Also, there's some photographic evidence out there of Hickey actually holding the gun. And while some of them are hard to reproduce for you guys without purchasing copies of various books, here's the one people have seen, which I think is

actually just someone screen capping the documentary and uploading it to Wikipedia. But it is a picture of George Hickey holding the AR-15 in the service follow-up. You can see, yeah, it's very clearly just a picture of him with the AR-15. I will also add, just because I have an answer now, and this is super interesting, but I don't think it's what you were talking about. Two things, one burning skin smells like charcoal, it's a charcoal like smell, but burning hair smells sulfurous. Burning hair smells like shit dude. I've, I've lit my hair on fire way too many times. Yeah. Yeah. I, I honestly learned more than I ever thought I would about what the burning like muscles when muscles burn, it smells like beef in a frying pan

and fat that burns on a human body smells like a fatty pork on a grill. Yeah, man. Welcome to Chili Manati. Well, you learn things you didn't want to know. The whole human body burns with an iron-rich coppery smell Mmm, and organs rarely burn well because they have to have really high heat because they're filled with liquid But you know smell like if you burn liver God now I Ever needed to know about that What would it smell like to eat the dead president? Uh, and then of course

There's a statement from Union Terminal Co. rail traffic supervisor SM Holland who was watching the motorcade make its way towards and underneath him from where he stood on the triple overpass near the end of Elm Street. Unmistakable location if you've been to this plaza by the way. He was also the guy who said he saw smoke on the grassy knoll but much more interesting to us today is this bit Mathis and Jesse are going to reenact for you now. Here, here we go. Uh, Jesse's going to be SM Holland. Mathis is going to be interviewing him. So after the second time he was hit, what did the secret servicemen do? Well, I noticed that the secret serviceman stood up in the car in the

president's car. When did he stand up in the car? Just about the same time the president was shot the second time, he jumped up in the seat and was standing up on the seat. Now I actually thought when they started up, I actually thought he was shot too because he fell backwards just like he was shot but it jerked him down when they started off. What did he do when he stood up? He pointed his machine gun right towards the grassy knoll behind that picket fence. Kind of frustrating this testimony because he definitely said it happened in the president's

car, which is just wrong. But he also mentioned the machine gun. So maybe he just got the car wrong or something. But why isn't it ever easy? You know what I mean? Why? That would be a way better piece of evidence if he said the right thing. I mean, what this, what this proves without, you know, a shadow of doubt is that, uh, something I think attorneys, judges, anyone would tell you that human memory is like, do not trust it in court.

It, you will constantly get it wrong. You'll make stuff up. What you think you saw isn't what you saw. It happens more frequent than you would think. Everyone thinks like, Oh, I was there. I'm a witness. But witness testimony without evidence means nothing really. witness but witness testimony without evidence means nothing really. Listen to season one episode one of the serial podcast for a great little illustration of that concept. And by the way, no shade thrown by this podcast or honestly by anyone involved in writing a mortal error or the making of the documentary towards George Hickey if this is what indeed happened. They have nothing but sympathy for the guy if the story's true. I even watched Bonner Menninger get like misty-eyed about it on camera in the doc. But according to that same doc, he was a great reliable agent who always did a lot of driving the president around, and honestly, even the rest of the day after the shooting, regardless of

everything else that may or may not be happening at this point, it's worth noting that he still definitely stayed and performed all his duties for the rest of the day and didn't like disappear anything. Now now that he had an idea that Hickey might have fallen and accidentally delivered this fatal gunshot wound to the president from just one car lengths away with a brand new AR-15, because this is just when they first came into use by the Armed Forces and government agencies by the way, Donahue starts to examine these like pre-Vietnam pretty much or like right after Vietnam right so they're the M16 and the AR-15 are like brand new guns. Donahue starts to examine these like pre-Vietnam pretty much or like right after Vietnam right so they're the m16 and the AR-15 are like brand new guns Donahue starts to examine the aftermath and what's occurred since to see if

anything's been consistent with what he thinks happened that day so first of all Hickey in the aftermath of the shooting is ordered to Parkland Hospital to cover vice president who was still the vice president Lyndon Johnson at the, and everyone kind of ends up at the hospital eventually for the most part. Then Kellerman, on the day leader, calls in the shooting to Washington, which he also does from Parkland Hospital, probably says something like, it did not go as planned, and then after LBJ is secured, Hickey returns the gun to the follow-up car, the AR-15, where it lives and is ordered to go out and secure a priest to administer last rites to the president. So it's possible that this dude accidentally shot the president in the head, maybe doesn't even know that he did it, and then had to go get the

priest to give him last rites. Then the president is declared dead and suddenly things just start schmoving. As you may remember from a long-ass time ago, there was famously an altercation with medical staff as they tried to fly the president's body back to the Bethesda Naval Hospital for the autopsy. But what's interesting in this scenario though, is that that altercation was actually between Dallas medical examiner Rose, and none other than our good friend on the day, Special Agent Kellerman, who threatens to run him over with the gurney when the good doctor reminds him that it is against the law in Dallas to remove a corpse without an autopsy when there's been a homicide. Because federal, there's no federal

jurisdiction at this time in the 60s over something like this. Lots of reason why this could have occurred. Obviously, this is the body of John F. Kennedy in the wake of a presidential assassination, tensions are high. But it lines up nicely with the theory that they didn't want anyone they couldn't control to get too good of a look at anything just in case. The casket is then loaded onto Air Force One while LBJ's aboard being sworn in as the next president of the United States

next to Jackie Kennedy. And when the plane lands in Washington, Kennedy's body is immediately driven the 28 miles to Bethesda Naval Hospital in Maryland. While as we know from last time on JFK, the car that he was in is already being cleaned out way too soon before being thoroughly investigated for clues. Also the autopsy is loud as fuck in the theater. There's 30 extremely important people in there, all with different jobs to do. It's all the most memorable days of all their lives.

They all have different motivations, all different levels of chill. Some of them are not used to waiting for any reason. Until finally, hours and hours later still, the dust settles and finally everybody gets to go home. So what the fuck occurred that day? Was the Secret Service being particularly weird and pushy and scary, or is it just weird in general that there's a group of highly credentialed special government agents whose only goal in most situations is to facilitate the needs of the highest office in the land and it's hours after that office has been vacated due an assassination and they're just edgy, you know?

To me, the version of events suggested by the documentary is particularly compelling. To start, the JFK smoking gun makes a big deal about something we've mentioned before, which is the Secret Service partying until dawn the night before the motorcade and being a little hungover. Which is already crazy. But honestly, I don't really think it was that wild of them. Even their own boss was like, they just kind of have shit schedules in general. What do you want from them? The bar was just like right outside the

hotel. And this time it actually figures into the story in a way you might not expect. Because basically, according to the Secret Service, Hickey's normally the driver, but he didn't go out with everybody else and drink the night before, so anticipating the dangers of the famously cavalier Kennedy motorcade where he just... We talked about this last time too. There was like threats called into like several cities and he just was like, nah, just leave it open.

The people need to see me. I'm the president. And so that was like the vibe. So maybe that's why they gave Hickey the gun was because he was the one who hadn't been drinking. You know what I mean? However, in his own words, Hickey goes to great lengths to make sure it's clear against the word of seven other agents, by the way, that he did not have the gun in his hand around

the time other people said he did. So here's Jesse with the quote, so you can choose for yourself. And I just want to give him at least something of a voice, even though he doesn't talk very much. At the moment he was almost sitting erect I heard two reports which I thought were shots that appeared to me completely different in sound than the first report and were in such rapid success that there seemed to be practically no time element between them. It looked to me as if the President was struck in the right upper rear of his head.

The first shot of the two seemed as if it missed because the hair on the right side of his head flew forward and there didn't seem to be any impact against his head. The last shot seemed to hit his head and cause a noise at the point of impact which made him fall forward and to his left again. Possibly four or five seconds elapsed from the sound of the first report and the last. At the end of the last report I reached to the bottom of the car and picked up the AR-15 rifle, cocked and loaded it and turned to the rear. At this point, the car was passing under the

overpass and as a result we had left the scene of the shooting. I kept the AR-15 rifle ready as we proceeded at a high rate of speed to the hospital. Yeah, so there's lots of weirdness here when it comes to timing of the shots. He said he cocked and loaded the gun even though his superior Kellerman says it was always ready to go and And yeah, like the way he describes that second shot missing as it like going through his hair and blowing, like we know that didn't happen because we can see this is a Pruder film, right? And to cap off this weird little post-assassination era strangeness, JFK the smoking gun also points out testimony from James Joseph Rowley, the head of the Secret Service, again from 61 to 73, the real Secret Service head, not on the day, all the

time, which seems to imply that the AR-15 was withdrawn from the Secret Service arsenal for some reason after the assassination. Let me know what you guys think about that. Jesse will voice somehow our first appearance ever of Chief Justice Earl Warren today, after all this reading from the Warren Commission, and Mathis will be rowly head of the Secret Service, not on the day, as they talk about that night when all the agents went out drinking at what Warren keeps calling a, quote, Beatnik Club.

I don't condone this at all, but these men are young. They are of such age that I think that they responded in this instance adequately and sufficiently as anyone could under the circumstances. Well, I am thinking of this. As you go along in the motorcade, you have men who are scanning the buildings along the way, don't you? Yes, sir. And they have sub-machine guns in one of the cars? No. For security reasons, I would like to. We don't have machine guns now, sir. I just thought I heard that from the record here that they had some kind of guns. They had a weapon, a new weapon.

Yes, sir. Well, whatever it is. So what the fuck? What the fuck is that? What? Yeah, it feels like he was trying to like say that it was going to be bad for national security that they say what gun it is but that they already he knew he got caught out thinking that Knowing that this guy already knew what kind of gun it was or something like that or that he may be replete They no longer have the guns. There's a weird bit of like, yeah again

This would be the kind of thing that you know going back to Roosevelt where it's like Again, this would be the kind of thing that, you know, going back to Roosevelt where it's like, were you holding him up? Like, no, sir. I was not holding the president up. Well, was something holding him up? Well, he was being held by some, but I, it's like that vibe of like, it's a lie for the president, but clearly it's not, it's like, yeah, it's very weird because they clearly had the guns.

Yeah. And it's almost like they didn't want to admit they brought giant guns just in case. Yeah, exactly It makes no sense Beyond this in the story as told in mortal error This is where Donahue catches on to the story sets off on his journey to discover George Hickey as the subject of his crazy But impressively plausible theory, but that was way back in 1992 when this book was published. So before we wrap it up, let's go into the last act where we ask, what has happened since? I bet there's lots of questions already bubbling in your brains, but let's see what other secrets

this story has yet to reveal to us over the past 32 years since the book first dropped, which is actually like longer between the book and now than the book and the assassination. Here's Mathis with a quote from the National Archives to get us started. The President John F. Kennedy assassination records collection act of 1992 created the assassination records review board as an independent agency to re-examine for release the assassination related records

that federal agencies still regarded as too sensitive to open to the public. Yeah. So one big thing that's mentioned in the documentary version of this, which by the way is from 2013, is that in the wake of the JFK movie that we talked about last time being a huge hit and bringing a bunch of new eyes onto the case, sometime around 1995, thanks to the JFK assassination records review board, which I'm going to call the ARRB from now on. There was a moment when all these extra files from Dallas were set to be made available

so that people could really take a more transparent look at everything and satisfy this new wave of curiosity about everything that happened, even if it didn't really end up moving the needle very much by the time the whole ARRB thing wrapped up in 1998. So as such, Donahue never really got to investigate any of their findings before he passed away in late 1999. And it's probably just as well because according to the documentary, all of the sensitive new JFK records and files the Secret Service are going to have to release were actually destroyed one week before they were set to be subpoenaed as part of like support supposedly

their normal record keeping policy. But I don't know about that. But that's apparently what happened. However, we do now know from a double RB medical testimony from 1997 that Gerald Francis Custer, the x ray tech at the president's autopsy was warned by his superior dr. John Ebersole to quote keep your mouth shut about the autopsy. But that's just the beginning of the documentaries further investigation into a possible Secret Service cover-up as a result of some of these new interviews. Do you think so yeah I think this is kind of, so you know how Trump got shot and, uh, there was

just a dude chilling on a rooftop forever. And everyone's like, what the, how come the secret service didn't know? And now, and suddenly everything's like, shh, don't ask fucking questions. And I wonder if it's similar where the reason why like stop asking questions is that if we started digging, we just discovered the Secret Service really screwed the pooch and that kind of negates like if you're so bad at your job then like maybe I'll shouldn't be there and we should have something else like you think this is just screwing the pooch is kind of putting it kindly when it comes to what may have happened. I'm saying like like that. It was such a complete breakdown, very similar to the Trump thing.

We're like, how no one did anything while a dude took a shot. It means that there was some sort of something else like crumbling and falling apart here where it's just like complete and total. Like if you really investigated, it would be like people questioning whether the secret service even should be around like that kind of shit big big big time. Yes

but That's kind of exactly what I'm that's kind of exactly the the story that word That seems like it seems like the big question is like did the Secret Service screw up so badly that Like really they're to blame and they're like shut up We're not to blame. Don't say a damn thing. Well, you tell me. Look, according to one of the, according to testimony of one of the photographers who

was there on, at the autopsy, there was only two. There was Stringer and there was Floyd Albert Reaby. The Secret Service was locking down all the photos from the autopsy too. Here's a quote from him. I'll be general counsel T. Jeremy Gunn. Jesse will be Reaby. The other photographer was Mr. Stringer, as I said, but I believe he passed away at this point. It's 1997 now instead of 1963,

so remember that. The last, I'm sorry, the officer's name is Gunn? No, I'm General Counsel T. Jeremy Gunn. Ah, okay. You're Floyd Albert Reby, the assistant photographer at the Autopsy. Understood. Yeah. Have you ever spoken with any government officials who have any, who've had any role in investigating the autopsy of President Kennedy?

Once, uh, once over the phone. Could you tell me just a little bit about that? When was, when it approximately was? Oh, I don't even remember that. At the time, I didn't want to talk to the man because I didn't know that the security had been lifted and I didn't talk to him about what I saw or what happened that night. So then they talk for a little while before Gunn asks him,

you said previously that you took 35 millimeter photos. Approximately how many rolls of film did you take? Just part of one roll. I think it was only six or seven exposures. Was that film in black and white or color? I don't remember. What was done with, when you had finished with that one roll of 35 millimeter film, what did you do with that? I took it out of the camera and gave it

to one of the secret agents there. Did you ever see the film subsequently? No. Have you ever told any researchers that you took four or five rolls of film? No. Approximately how many black and white four by five shots did you take? About eight or nine film packs?

That would have been what? 111? Somewhere around there between 99 and 111. Those are all just as we said, black and white? Yes. And approximately a hundred so to speak? Right around there, yeah. Did you take any films from Duplex film holders or was everything press-packed for you? I don't remember. I may

have used one cassette but I don't remember right now. What did you do with the 4x5 exposures after you had completed them? After the pack was used they were given to a security officer. Have you ever seen any of those films since? No. Then they talk some more and Gunn asks him as far as you were aware Did either of you either you or mr. Stringer leave the autopsy room with any exposed film? No, no Couldn't have got out of there with that. They even took We have one or two cassettes that were not exposed and they took those too. I had another old 35 millimeter in my pocket, not even used, but they took that too and they took every bit of film we had.

So they were locking this shit down. Everyone was told they'd be sent copies of these photos or that they would be made available at request as needed basis, whatever. But they never were. None of them were were made available nobody got a copy of anything Reby says he hasn't seen a single photo he took to this day anywhere and if you remember up at the top Reby said he didn't talk because this is 1997 by the way Reby said he didn't talk because he wasn't sure if the security had been lifted right so here's one more thing about that for me and Jesse to read that really does just smack of a cover-up, or at least a strong attempt to lock things down harder than you would expect, especially when by the time

this goes down, you already have a guilty suspect in custody. You made a reference a moment ago to a secrecy oath or something. Can you tell me what you meant by that? Well, we were told, called up to the Captain Stover's office, everybody that's involved in the autopsy and we were told that this was classified information on the National Security Act and that we had to read this and sign it and if we talked about it with anybody at all we could be court-martialed. Do you recall whether you spoke to anyone about the events of the autopsy between the time of the autopsy and the time that you signed the statement that is now recorded in exhibit 138? I don't think so. I don't think I did.

Do you recall whether you received any oral instructions not to discuss the events of November 22nd prior to the time that you received the document marked 138? Yes, we did. We got oral verbal orders not to talk about this. I think that's what it was that was the next day and then this came up a week later, but yes we did. We got verbal orders from Captain Stover. Mr. Reby, subsequent to the time that you were present in the autopsy room, have you ever seen any of the original autopsy photographs? No, I have never seen the photographs taken. Crazy, right? And on top of that, we hear more

corroborating stories that go along with this. So like, for example, Dr. Humes, who actually conducted the autopsy we talked about a little bit last time, was extremely frustrated because of how stifled he felt doing it under such chaotic conditions. He felt like he didn't get to do everything that he wanted to do, and honestly he made a bunch of mistakes, but I really don't blame him because really it was a fucking shit show in there. And as such, when Agent Kellerman asks him for the pale that he'd slid the brain into, and all the pathology slides that went with it, he was happy for the sake of further analysis to give them to him, but if that ever happened, there's no available record of any further

analysis occurring with any of that stuff, and no one anywhere ever sees that brain again, which may go back to something else that X-ray tech I mentioned earlier, Gerald Francis Custer said. Apparently, he saw Kennedy's personal physician, Dr. James Young, and an unnamed four-star general directing portions of the autopsy themselves to the effect of things like, and this is a quote from him, in a sense, the Kennedy family would not like you to preserve this path any further. Just like you're saying, you're asking about them being Catholic and wanting to keep the body intact. In fact, the family's wishes are kind of a perfect excuse in these situations because

on the one hand, somebody just died, that person has a family, they are the president, they had a public persona who is now dead. This is the inflection point of history in one sense. So when Humes said that his boss, George Berkeley, asked him to give Kellerman the brain pail because Bobby Kennedy, JFK's brother, wanted it and then it just disappeared forever, maybe they just didn't want to see JFK's brain chunks pop up in a gas station somewhere like along Route 66 in 30 years and destroyed them out of like honor. But also it's a great way to get doctors to hand you things that you need really quickly with no questions asked, especially if you have some kind of bizarrely sensitive agenda. Speaking of bizarrely sensitive agendas,

finally is something that to me, if true, is even more of a smoking gun than the actual smoking AR-15 in this story. Here's an interview with the x-ray tech that we were talking about earlier, Gerald Custer, about something he was asked to do a few hours after the autopsy by his superior at the hospital, Dr. Ebersole. Mathis, you be Custer and I'll keep being General Counsel Gun. Let me just grab this because it's kind of a long boy like I said. When did you first see those X-rays? The next morning I took them. And where did you take those x-rays?

In the main department in a private room with a portable x-ray unit. Was it the same x-ray unit that was used to take the autopsy? Yes, sir. The same distance. And what was the purpose of taking these x-rays? What were the procedures? How did you go about taking them? All I did was place the bone fragments on the film and I made different exposures at different distances. Did Mr. Ebersole or Dr. Ebersole say anything to you about metal fragments? He gave me three or four different metal fragments varying in size and he asked me to tape them to

the bones. Did you tape metal fragments to the bones? Yes sir. What was the purpose that you understood taping metal fragments to the bones to be? Uh, yeah, that was a good question because I didn't understand it at the time either. Is there any question in your mind whether you in fact taped metal fragments to the bones? Absolutely no question at all in my mind. Do you see the results of those metal fragments

appearing on X-ray number four? Only a few here. And you're pointing to the largest fragment in the... The largest fragment, the superior portion of it. Approximately what time did you take the X-rays on the 23rd? This is one day later, by the way, in the morning later. I have to guesstimate, early morning, early afternoon? No, late morning, early afternoon.

Did Dr. Ebersole ever subsequently explain to you the purpose for taping metal fragments to the bones to be? No, he didn't. He just stated to me when he brought the film The Bone Fragments and the Metal Fragments to me that he had just come back from the White House after being debriefed. And what did he say about being debriefed?

Well, he just said he was debriefed by the Secret Service and that was it. High-ranking people had talked to him And he suggested to me that everything I see from now on I should forget. So they talk about a little more just to be sure of what he's saying. He's like, okay He's like he went to the White House, the Secret Service. There's like a little bit of that going on and then Gunn says Let me try asking you one question just to make sure that the record is clear on this. Did Dr. Ebersole ask you to tape the metal fragments to the bone after he had returned from the White House? Are you able to say with certainty?

Yeah, absolutely. As soon as he walked in, that's the first thing he said. I wanna see these bone fragments x-rayed with metal fragments taped. Jesus, okay. So Dr. Ebersole also asks him to disguise who took the x-rays by leaving out his metal marker that he always uses for identifying the ones that are taken by him. Even seeing some done with it and asking him

to remove it after the fact and redo them with language like quote, I better not see it on these films. And there's even more like I realized these little scenes are going along, but I'm including it because it's literally insane stuff here that he's saying. So let me just grab this. This is me and Mathis one more time. You have, during the course of this deposition, identified three x-rays that you are quite certain that you took, but don't appear in this collection. Are there others that you can identify as not being included? That's the only three that come to my mind right now. The two tangential views and the AP cervical spine.

Okay. Can I add something to that? Sure. In my own opinion, I do believe basically the reason why they are not here is because they showed massive amounts of bullet fragments. Did you ever hear of anyone connected with the autopsy making any attempts to remove,

destroy any of their x-ray material? Let me put it this way, gossip is cheap. Everybody has some. I heard some. And sometimes you have to take it all, take it with the hillebeens where it comes from. But I did hear that in a conversation. When did you hear it in a conversation? The next day. What did you hear?

That certain pertinent things were taken care of. Who told you that? I was afraid you were gonna ask that. Nobody told me. I heard it between two officers, high ranking officers. Who were the officers? One was Ebersole and one was another radiologist that right now, his name just doesn't,

can't come to my memory. This other officer was later clarified to be Dr. Loy Brown, captain in charge of the radiology department, because it's a military hospital by the way, but all he says is that he hears them gossiping about this in the hall before they notice him and clam up. And as for why he stayed quiet, it does bear mentioning though that he was threatened with jail time for breaking his silence on this, and that he took extra care to explain while it was certainly admissible, it was hearsay based on hearsay in his own mind, too, and didn't want to overweigh it in his testimony.

And so, in case you're still wondering why this didn't become a more important point back in the 60s, it never even comes up because Arlen Specter skips over Custer for the Warren Commission hearings after a preliminary interview, which, now that I mention it, also happens to Congressman Yarborough, who was in the car directly behind Hickey and interviewed in the Chicago Sun-Times, saying he smelled gunpowder and saw him waving a gun around. He was also never called, even though Chief Justice Earl Warren requested he be given a hearing personally. So somebody ignored the request of Justice Warren and didn't give that guy a hearing. As a matter of fact, according to the doc, there is no evidence Spector spoke to anyone in the following car at all, and only one agent who was in the car gave anything to the commission at all

besides their original written statements. And then, something I was very sad to learn was that almost three years after it's published, George Hickey files four lawsuits against the book. And even though it's annoying and expensive for everyone involved, the suit is eventually dropped because he waited too long and the book had been out for years already. And if he had a problem with it, why didn't he do anything even after all these people tried to contact him? However, when the book goes to paperback in 1996, a couple years later, he sues again for libel and it gets some attention in the press. So here's a quote from Jesse from an October 1996 edition of The Baltimore Sun about this lawsuit.

This time, one of those theories we played out in federal court in Baltimore, where a former U.S. Secret Service agent assigned to protect John F. Kennedy on the day of his death nearly 33 years ago is suing for libel. A little-known book called Mortal Error, the Shot They Killed JFK claims the agent slipped and accidentally pulled the trigger of his high-powered AR-15 rifle, striking Kennedy in the head November 22, 1963. It's a theory, first advanced by a ballistics expert from Townsend, that just won't go away.

We're trying to stop this now while Hickey's still alive, said Mark S. Zaid, an attorney for former agent George W. Hickey 73. He doesn't want his grandchildren growing up and hearing other children say, hey, your grandfather killed the President of the United States. Hickey is seeking untold damages from St. Martin's Press in New York. He also wants an apology, preferably printed on full page ads in the New York Times, the Washington Post, and the Baltimore Sun, his lawyer said. It's not likely Hickey will see an apology anytime soon. The case is utterly without merit, said David N.

Kay, chief attorney for St. Martin Hickey, St. Martin's Hickey suit filed last week in U S district court in Baltimore says mortal error is simply false. And other Kennedy assassination experts agree the lawsuit, which does not name menningger as the, says mortal error is replete with false and misleading defamatory statements and innuendos. The suit says the book libel's hicky by accusing him of a crime, negligent homicide for shooting

Kennedy, and by claiming that the agent has participated in deliberate cover-up for three decades. Yeah, and so pretty crazy. And this time in 1998, while Donahue was still alive, St. Martin's Press actually decided to settle out of court because it was starting to cause the publisher too much money. So they did so, they settled on undisclosed terms, but it's worth mentioning Hickey passed away quietly in 2011 without ever getting any sort of apology, and while it's no longer with St. Martin's Press, the book is still definitely in print today. I've got it right here. It's on Hunter's Moon Press, which seems a little bit less legit of a publishing house. I'm not sure what the deal is with that,

but it's still in print today. And probably since he wasn't alive to sue anyone anymore, that's likely why the doc JFK the Smoking Gun was able to be released in 2013, which Bonner manager and his book about Donahue are all over. He's like, they're literally in it. And like I said, Donahue passed away in 1999, unsatisfied that he ever really made any series traction with his theory, but even in his obituary, which Mathis will read from now, his daughter made it seem like he never stopped searching and that more was on the way. So here's Mathis with a quote from his daughter, Colleen.

According to his daughter, Colleen Donahue-Lorenzen of Riderwood, Mr. Donahue was working on a related book at his death. He had discovered a TV tape in a German archive that showed the assassination from a different angle as well as a Secret Service agent standing up in a car, said Mrs. Lorenzen. So, with a heavy heart, that's where I will leave it today. Donahue wasn't satisfied, Hickey got some money, and it never really took over the entire world

like fans of the theory were hoping. But before we say goodbye to this series of Kennedy episodes and hello to our next series of a notorious American mysteries, let's imagine for a second that this theory is true. If you're Hickey or just the Secret Service in general, and you accidentally deliver a mortal wound to a president who has just likely been mortally shot

and probably rendered an unresponsive vestibule at best already. Right? Oh yeah. Like what do you do? Like what do you do? What you should do is, you know, bear the truth out and to deal with it, even if you do it 40, 50 years later. But what they're, I understand that's the whole, again, clubs love to protect their

own, right? And I'm not meaning that just in terms of like, cops and shit like that, but just, you don't want, that makes your entire group, your entire employer circle look terrible. It makes the Secret Service agent look inept, look untrained, unable to keep their trigger finger disciplined because maybe they were hung over, which is also, again, you have one of the most important

jobs in the fucking world protecting the president and you're getting drunk the night before. I get it, you're over, which is also, again, you have one of the most important jobs in the fucking world protecting the president and you're getting drunk the night before. I get it, you're stressed, you're young, I get that part, you're human as well. So yeah, I definitely see them being willing to like, at least just hide it. And when we first did JFK, we said like, we'll talk about what our theories are

when we finally are finished. This is the one I've always kind of ascribed to. This is the one that I believe to be the more believable one. I don't wanna say the one that's definitely true cause you know, no way to know. Well yeah, that segues in my next question which is just like, do you think this theory's true?

Having heard all the theories that I've given you, what is your guys' final word? Like what is the vibe? Oswald definitely fired a shot. He definitely was trying to kill. And I do think the accidental and the panic, the Secret Service agent maybe slipped and pulled the fucking trigger

and the AR bullet obliterated the president, who was already gonna, like you said, kind of already gonna be dead from that first shot anyway. But I think it's such a human and it sucks cuz the tragedy but it's a human mistake Bore out of human choices that may have rendered him not as sharp the next morning But it might have been too late like it doesn't really matter in that regard But yeah I've always described that this is the more realistic one because of the things in that book where you know Maybe the bullet hitting the spine sent his arm shoot up and like, you know

That because of the way the nerves work and shit like that and then in a panic. Yeah, they think it service guy Didn't mean it. It's like he tried to kill Kennedy It was not what he was expecting. Yeah, that's where I sit for sure. Yeah, what about you Jesse Cubans? I mean I want to believe this one because it seems the most simple and in the easiest to follow. But also I've seen five from the umbrella Academy kill JFK. So I'm open to anything easily. You're on the umbrella man theory.

I mean, like, obviously he traveled back in because he can skip their time. Oh yeah. Right. They were having shade at the umbrella man theory in the in the documentary The daughter was like people want to pay attention to the fucking umbrella man instead of the fucking good theories But like my dad's theory and it just gets it easy gets money too Cuz then there's like the mob who actively jumps in is like we did it we did it You see like a bunch of different mob people claim that they or their heads I mean, but also that's a lot, you know know like the mob is a lot of bravado and like if I

was the one who did it like I'm gonna be made you know like that kind of stuff. It just seems like this is the most likely version because the other ones are almost too fantastical and it's just like one of those you know whatever is the simplest usually is right. Yeah but what if he was actually assassinated because he knew too much about the aliens another theory that I almost an episode about before thinking better of myself is a theory that like if he was interesting but like why'd we do it for the aliens why can't the aliens kill our presidents I mean man all the theories for people to like die on a hill they're

not tangible in this dimension maybe they they are. Maybe they maybe they believe in peace. Yeah. Maybe. So we killed someone for the peace lovers. That's America's. That's next week. That is our MO. We bring you peace with bombs.

Next week, the last episode of H8 before the big reveal. See you next time. Thank you all so much. Minnesota time. Patreon.com slash. Shululuma90pod, we appreciate you! We love you! Goodbye! Say okay, done! Blown away! What else do I have to say? We- Anyway, me and my wife were sitting outside indulging on our porch one night, enjoying

ourselves. I needed to go to the bathroom, so I stepped back inside and after a few moments, I hear my wife go, holy shit, get out of here! So I quickly dash back outside. She's looking up at the sky in awe. I look up to her and there's a perfect line of dozen lights traveling across the sky. So Thanks for watching!