Club Random with Bill Maher - Maureen Dowd | Club Random

Episode Date: March 30, 2025

On this episode, Bill sits down with New York Times columnist Maureen Dowd for a wide-ranging, personal chat about her new book “Notorious"—a collection of her incisive profiles of major cultural and political figures—and why she once went viral for a botched edible experience in Denver. The two swap stories about growing up in Washington, D.C. (her father was a detective), how “woke” culture may have dampened the fun on the left, and what still draws voters to Donald Trump’s brash humor. Maureen recalls the times she’s gone toe-to-toe with politicians across the aisle, and she and Bill debate whether Democrats need a showman of their own. Throughout it all, they reflect on the challenges of bridging America’s political divide, the strange alliances they’ve formed in the process, and how a good dinner party could be the real key to bringing people back together. Upgrade your wardrobe and save on @trueclassic at trueclassic.com/RANDOM ! #trueclassicpod #ad Go to https://www.ffrf.us/freedom or text "CLUB" to 511511 and become a member today Follow Club Random on IG: @ClubRandomPodcast Follow Bill on IG: @BillMaher Don’t forget to subscribe to the podcast for free wherever you're listening or by using this link: https://bit.ly/ClubRandom Watch Club Random on YouTube: https://bit.ly/ClubRandomYouTube Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

This country was built for everyone, not just one group. That's where the Freedom From Religion Foundation comes in. Think of them as the GPS keeping church and state in separate lanes, just like the founders actually intended. So whether you've always been secular or left religion behind, like me, if you don't want someone else dictating the trip for you, FFRF has your back. From membership information text club to 511-511. Text fees may apply.

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all for free when you visit aura.com slash defense. That's aura.com slash defense to sign up for a 14 day free trial and start protecting you and your loved ones. That's a u r a dot com slash defense. Certain terms apply so be sure to check the site for details. Was that you? It was you, fool. Oh, really? I was going to say, great line. You don't remember it? Produced by Harvey Weinstein.

Oh yeah, well there's that. But, go ahead, Maureen. Keep liking it. Hello. Hello. It's around the corner. How are you? Good. Hello. Hello. It's around the corner.

How are you? Good. You know, you have a little cold. Yeah. And you still showed up. Yeah. Well, I love people who keep a booking. Thank God I'm in Bobby Kennedy's America.

I don't worry when I get sick. Well, let's not start fighting about that right away. Let's wait like 10 minutes before we get into, you look fantastic. I don't know what you're doing to get through this cold. What are you doing to get through a cold? Well, I had to cancel my first day on the book tour. I was supposed to be on CNN with Caitlin Collins, and I just slept, but when you're on book tour,

it's hard to get enough sleep. Man, you're a trooper. I mean, you go places in the world. I mean, I wouldn't go in the world. I don't. I know, you don't like to travel, right? I'm done. I did it. Done. like to travel, right? I'm done. I did it.

Done. Not like you did. Like Larry David is like that. I mean, Europe, what's the point? No, he was in Europe recently because he officiated Ari Emanuel's wedding in Italy. Oh, really? Yeah. I think he married them.

Oh my gosh. I didn't know that. Well, anyone can do a wedding, you know. I'll do yours. So I'm not going to pass you this joint, because you have a cold. And we also know that you once had a very bad experience with marijuana.

Right, and then you gave me some advice on your show. Publicly. But if they ran that advice on a loop in dispensaries that would be good What was the advice I forget because I'm a pothead well they didn't I mean the problem with when Denver Right you ate it But can I can I just clear up something which I keep trying to clear up, but no one believes me. It was a five square chocolate caramel candy bar. I had one half of one square.

Everyone said you shouldn't have eaten the whole candy bar because that's like guzzling a bottle of Jack Daniels. But I didn't. But here's the thing, it was a bunch of hippies who suddenly became billionaires, and they didn't want to put in a speed bump for new people where they labeled it with instructions or had a thing on a loop like your instructions, where they said, if you take an edible,

you've got to wait an hour and a half because that's how long it takes to kick in. So, but the funny thing was they, they put up, they hired a model who looked like me and put up billboards all over Denver with the message, something like, don't be like Moe, go slow. With like me with my head in my hands, but yeah. That's really kind of a cool feather in your cap.

I have a picture of it in my office. It's kind of like, I have framed the flyer that the Westboro Baptist Church handed out, Remember them? God hates fags, people. Yeah. It's one of my prized possessions. Yeah, well I actually got the laws changed there because all I thought was that they should give you better instructions.

I didn't want to slow them down, but they were all furious at the idea that they would be slowed down. You know, but a lot of new people were coming in and older people, and they just needed to tell them how to do it. Exactly. They need to. Yeah, you're right.

There's this some level. I still want you to tell me how to do it. I still haven't gotten back on the worst, so to speak. Well, first of all, don't eat it. Yeah. Unless you can get it. I mean, there are people who do. I don't want to tell everybody how

to do their own thing, but for me, eating it was always problematic. I wanted to eat it because it's better for you, I think, you don't have to put smoke in your lung. But it's just too much of a commitment, and you know how I feel about commitment. But it is. It's a giant commitment. Sometimes a terrible commitment. And it's like an acid trip sometimes. That's what happened to you. Well, what happened was, yeah, so I was with a girlfriend, Alisinder Stanley, and she and

I did this tiny bit of this candy bar. And we were suddenly, you know, well, we were fine. Then nothing happened for an hour and a half so we figured we'd get a glass of wine and go to bed. So then suddenly. That's the big mistake. Yeah, I felt paralyzed but I also felt super paranoid. I was sure that the hotel officials were gonna come in and kick me out of the room and then we were sort of both paralyzed for 12 hours.

And then when I got up, for some reason, I took a glass of water and walked over to my computer and poured it into it. What? Yeah. I like killed my computer. I forgot to put that in my piece. But... Well, that to me speaks of some sort of psychological thing that was... I didn't want it to kill my computer. Well, that to me speaks of some sort of psychological thing that was working in your...

I wanted to kill my computer. Well, yes. Wouldn't you? I mean, I don't think it would be Sigmund Freud to see that. But you know what I suspect but I never prove was that I think they were using a lot of medicinal level at that point, so you didn't quite know what you were getting. I think it might have been a little stronger even. And also they were disguising it as candy. Remember little kids were, and that was all I said.

I said, don't, now you're in the game. Don't disguise it as candy and just give people instructions. Well, of course, that certainly is, that's the low-hanging fruit that they could do. And I own a pot store with Woody Harrelson. Oh yeah, I wanna to go over there. The woods, it's fantastic. Everyone...

It's amazing. Yeah, my researcher is here with me and he's still upset he didn't take... Woody Harrelson was giving out gold, like gold finger, gold foil joints the night of your show in DC. Can you get him one of those? Yeah. But you know, CNN, I was going to say it's a conservative organization, but they're not that conservative.

I'm out there now. When they asked me, would you like to be honored, I said, yeah, be honored, CNN. Are you kidding? But what are you going to do about all the fucks? We don't care. You don't care? Yeah.

CNN doesn't care about fuck? Yeah. Wow. Things have changed. When I first went on The Tonight Show, you couldn't say ass. David Zaslav. What, you think he did it? No, I'm kidding.

Maybe he's a looser guy. He is. He's a great guy. Yeah, I love him too. Yeah. No, he's a guy from Jersey. And Mark Thompson, our old CEO. Not Jersey, but near. Yeah, Mark Thompson, our old CEO, is now running CN.

Yeah, I just had lunch with him. He's a great guy. Yeah. We have to trash someone soon. We love everyone. Oh, you have my picture with Chico. I love that so much. It's like that, if I had to take another thing

out of my house besides the West Baptist Church flyer saying that I am Satan and I'm praying to Obama like this and he's got devil horns, which is awesome, I would save this. You got me this when my book came out last year and you interviewed me and Chico photobombed, if you're not watching this, if you're listening, Chico photobombed the picture and it's most,

I'm in the background which is perfect because when you're older it's a great place to be. But Chico with his one fucking eye, just. I love that picture. I do too, it is my prized possession. But, no, there's plenty of, I mean, first of all, the book is fantastic. I very often get too stoned and forget to talk.

Thanks, but I'm not going to do that today, not to you, not to the awesome Maureen Dowd, who's been so good to me. I read, you know, Notorious, it's called, and it's a collection of all your pieces, your profiles of not just people in show business, but whoever is a big mocker. I mean, I love the ones you do about fashion. I love the ones you do about tech titans.

That's a big thing. But anybody who's in the culture like that on that level. And some of these, I mean, I remember all of them. And I have a very, shall we say, selective memory. But some of them came back from the 90s, like Al Pacino. Some of them are from early 90s, when you and I were both first kind of... When did you get your column? I mean, I remember the 88 election when you covered... I got it in 95.

95 is when your column started. Okay. So Politically Incorrect started in 93. Right. I did a story, it's more of a column, not one of those pieces, but about, remember I trashed Ari at the White House for he was criticizing you for that comment? Trash who? I trashed the Bush White House when they were criticizing you about, you know, during the Iraq war when or it was, sorry, it was after 9-11 when- Oh, when they fired me? It's so funny, Maureen, you know, like here's the arc of my career.

You could see it through that lens of Islam because I was a big hero to the left after 9-11 because six days after the attack we did our first show and somebody said, Dinesh D'Souza said, you know, the people who were attacked they were not cowards and I wholeheartedly agreed and still do. You can be evil and not be a coward. I mean they stuck with the suicide mission. Now I've heard some of them on the plane didn't know it was a suicide mission. And they were like, wait, what kind of a mission?

Yeah, but you came back. But they did it, and I think they probably did now. So I was a big hero to the left, because I said, you know, terrorists aren't necessarily are necessarily terrorists, which was true. And then I became a big enemy of the left because I kept saying true things about Islamic extremism,

which they didn't like because they think that's Islamophobia. So it's interesting the way it came. I've stayed right where I've always been, keeping it real about both sides of that. But it just came around. And now we are, I'm not surprised that we've reached this place where wokeism is somehow aligned with, infatata is the only solution. That the people that look and dress and admire terrorists and infitada, which is not a benign word or concept,

they're aligned now. That's the end of that cycle. And I'm very happy where I stayed, despite all the people who, you know, threw me out of their little club for it. Well, that's why people love you. People ask me about you all around the world when I travel. World. You don't know me around.

Customs agents. Really? And where? Because people want someone to just tell it straight and not be spinning for one side or the other. I get that in America, but where in the world do they know me? Ireland. So they get where they see it on YouTube? They're proud of you as the son of Ireland.

Really? Yeah. I remember when I visited there in 99, and I never really thought, oh, you know, I'm Irish, but I was always very unsentimental about it. And I truly believe in my heart that you can't be proud of something you didn't actually achieve. I'm not really proud I'm Irish, it just happened. You know, I'm not proud I'm white, it just happened.

I'm proud that I stayed on the air after they tried to get rid of me. That's an accomplishment. No, nobody puts baby in a corner. But when my plane landed, I was crying. And I don't know why. I mean, I didn't expect it, or I just, maybe something in the earth. I don't know what it was,

but when the plane was touching down, I guess somewhere in me I know what my roots are. That is a great story. It's not much of a story, it just happens. Oh, I love that though. Yeah, yeah, and then I had the best time driving around. Ireland has changed a lot. They had a gay Indian.

Oh, they're super woke. Yeah. Prime minister. Oh yeah. For people who don't know, there's like stupider woke in other countries, even in many places. I mean, New Zealand, I think, uh, I've heard some things that a young woman prime minister, you know, who had said things during COVID very much like, you know, if we are the only-

Jacinda Ardern. I did one of these pieces on her. We are the only truth. She was great. I mean, she was great when I interviewed her. Yeah, I'm just saying- She did. Yeah, she got in trouble over COVID.

That's why. Well, also just this attitude that I do hate on the left of like, we own the truth. Right. I mean, I think Fauci said almost goes, I am the science. Well, I think they took his mural down in Washington. You trump? Yeah, uh-huh, yeah. What's it like, I mean, that's been your home your whole life for people who don't know.

Yeah, I was born there. Born and raised there and your father was a detective and sergeant at arms in the Capitol? No, he was a DC police detective who was in charge of Senate security for 20 years. He didn't get shot, he captured the gun. He ran from the Senate to the House and tackled and took the gun away from one of the Puerto Rican terrorists. Puerto Rican terrorists. Yeah, so he shot up the house. You can still see the gunshots on some of the desks. And he took the gun, and then there was a trial. And the defense attorney asked him how he knew that it was his client's gun and my dead

ghost, because I carved my initials on it, which you can see if you look at it. Holy shit, now that's a story. He was, my dad was very magnetic and cool. And anyway, Washington is one big ball of stress. They need some weed there. I mean, they're ripping it from the inside out.

You mean now it is? Now. But it wasn't before? You're just saying it's worse. Now. It must be. People just getting fired. There's nothing more close to home than that. And he's tearing through the government firing people. Right. home than that, and he's tearing through the government firing people. So that's really what I was asking. What is, I mean, do you see that in Starbucks when you're doing?

Everyone's head is spinning. I mean, this wolf pack or brat pack of young Doge kids with backpacks and pizza shows up. They had a confrontation today or yesterday at the US Institute of Peace where they didn't want to let them in and they were trying to sneak in. You know, it's scary because it was, I think you said something, I'm elaborating on it,

but it's like if you want to get rid of your stomach, you don't use a John Belushi samurai sword to cut it off, you just use a zimpik. Like there's a more careful way to do it. I mean it would be nice to save money and have a leaner government, but these kids show up and they're trying to get into agencies. It's very disorienting because there was no planning in the sense of there's no disclosure agreements. Nobody knows what they're getting. They're getting taxpayers' information.

And a lot of it probably is illegal. And it's just an insane situation. And Elon Musk, there's a piece about him in the book. Oh yes. 2017. But it's pre- Yeah, when he didn't like him. It's funny, he also was a liberal hero.

Not that I'm a conservative hero now. He fully went all the other way. Right. As Joe Rogan used to also be quite liberal. Right. But the Elon piece is from what, 27? Well, Silicon Valley was liberal and now it's very Republican. Yeah, and he did the Tesla, you know.

Right, right. I mean, there was lots, you know. And everybody in Hollywood had a Tesla. And I remember when, it wasn't that long ago, when he was just posting things before he owned Twitter that were fairly benign and similar to the way I thought were like, I remember once he put like a graph of like, here I am, and here's where, you know,

the common sense used to be, the middle, and here's how it's moved. And, you know, he had the left abandoning it, which it has in many ways. So he sees himself as in the middle while the shift has happened. I see that too, but I didn't go all the way. Yeah, he's gone very far.

But I think the problem is he does not believe in government. So he's perfectly happy to eviscerate government. And he's treating it like a business or something. And it's government, you know, you can't do that. And I'm not saying I don't wanna get rid of stupid and wasteful things. But the way they're doing it, just imagine Washington and this crazy pack of kids

running around getting everyone's information. Even if you were going to metaphorically demolish a building, say a building does need to be demolished, wouldn't you go in first and take out whatever is valuable? Right, right. You know, you'd go into the- But they just show up. I mean, I can see Trump-

And then blow it up. Yeah, Trump is treating it. I used to like this TV show when I was little called Treasure Chest, where Jan Murray would open the treasure chest every week. Remember? Remember? Remember? Remember? Sounds vague. Was it a game show? Yeah.

So there's that thrill of them getting into an agency and finding the things that are stupid to cut. But there's more to it than that, you know. Club Random is brought to you by the Freedom From Religion Foundation. Yay! You ever been on a road trip where one person insists on controlling the music? Well, you're just trying to enjoy the ride, but now you're stuck listening to nothing but their favorite band.

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Shop now and elevate your wardrobe today. Well, the thing I worry about the most, which now will probably get us on what we're going to argue about health-wise is during, well, before COVID, we had a little group in China, a little group of like eight scientists and doctors who were supposed to monitor if anything was brewing over there. I forget what it was called. It was like a five-word name, a very long-wordly biomedical, that was really kind of a committee of whatever it was. It was just, it cost three cents basically. And he got rid of that.

And I don't feel like he's ever confronted with that enough. And now that's what they're doing all over the world. And diseases start in other countries and then they come here. How can these people who are, some of them are not stupid at all, how can they not see that that's the smart thing to do and that if another virus comes here, it could be worse, Ebola? Stop it in Africa. Right.

I just don't... Well, like when he had this presidential address, you know, recently, he had a child there who, he said, had gotten cancer maybe from chemicals. But then they're cutting the things at NIH that are watching that. Like when he talked to Zelensky today, he said, oh, I want to help you with these children that the Russians have kidnapped. They've kidnapped all these Ukrainian children. But then Doge cut a Yale program which tracks the children and tries to, you know, so this is what's going on.

Everybody wants to get rid of waste, but this is the crazy, nobody knows what anyone's doing, everything's spinning. So are people in Washington, how do you see it? Like when you go out drinking more, are the cars crashing off the side where they're just people? Like I wanna know how you actually, what you actually- That's what it is.

Just like in a movie where the car is driving off the road and people are just, there are guys running out, he's on fire, that kind of. That's it, that made me. Yeah, well, you know, on the disease thing, I gotta say, when I read the byline in your paper about these new stories, I can't help but remember that this is the person who said that any even hint that COVID could have escaped from a lab was racist.

Right. So you can't really blame me, and maybe she's your friend. I'm sorry if she works across the cubicle or whatever, but you can't blame me for being skeptical. I don't blame me and maybe she's your friend, I'm sorry if she works across the cubicle or whatever, but you can't blame me for being skeptical. I don't blame me. I don't. Thank you. Go ahead. Okay.

All right. No, I'm glad because I know you and I have slightly different views and I know RFK is easy to, I said last week, he's like having a bipolar girlfriend. Sometimes he says crazy shit and you just, he's the girl you're sorry you started to talk to at the party. But just from what I basically know,

I mean, we used to treat natural immunity as a little more valuable than we do now. I'm not saying this is the pharmaceutical industry taking over America entirely. I'm not a conspiracy theorist like that. But like any industry, they're very influential. And the solution always seems to be more of their, what they're selling.

And this is the first one, COVID, I recall, where we really didn't count natural immunity at all. Even if you had it, which is really usually the best kind, you still had to get the vaccine. That seems strange. And they fired medical workers who wouldn't do that. Well, I know that COVID was hard for all of us, but I do know it was hard for you because I feel like I kept sending you pink ties to cheer you up. And I wore them here.

We shot this show, I did the monologue there. We did the interviews right here. I did the editorial outside in the backyard. We did it once in the rain. I will treasure that moment. I did a monologue holding an umbrella. Yeah. I mean. You got through it.

You know, it was terrible. I know it was terrible. You know what was the terrible part is I would do the show, the show. Yeah, okay. It was still the show. We kept it pretty much like it was. We had a laugh track for the, you know, we tried that. We had old footage of people laughing from other errors. It was funny.

People thought it was a good bit. Yeah, we got through it. But after we finished the taping, I would walk out that door and I'd walk the 50 feet to my house and I'd just be silently all alone again. You can't come down from a show like that. Right. I know, I was working. You get keyed up and you just, it was like, it reminded me of the first time I took mushrooms

and when the mushrooms wore off, when they had eaten all my serotonin, and I was just like, oh. Yeah, yeah. I know, I was at my dining room table working by myself for two years. I thought I would go mad, I know I was at my dining room table working by myself for two years I thought I would go mad, you know It was it was a horrible period for the country go into the office every day

Well, I tried but they just did a crazy six-month redecoration of our office We haven't been there, but I will be going back after book tour But really why would you need, in your job, to go into an office? You don't need to, but I don't like working alone. I mean, if I had known I was going to be working alone so much, I would have become a cocktail waitress.

I don't want to be a journalist enough to do it alone. So you like to hear the clacking of the other. But yeah, that's the whole point. The newsroom. Right. His Girl Friday. Yeah, all these kids have not even experienced a newsroom. I don't know how they meet people to date.

I don't know how they get mentors. I don't know how they imitate. You know, I used to like watch reporters reporters and then I would know how to do it. I don't know who they modeled themselves on. I think it's horrible for young people. But some of them seem to not want to be in the office, which I don't get at all. Oh, most of them?

Yeah. Well, I think when historians write of this era, they will say that the great divide was no longer the things that we obsess over. It wasn't economic, although these divides all exist. It wasn't racial, that certainly exists. It was virtual versus not real. Like there is a somewhere in the chart of ages and generations a place where people like you and I have so little, so little in common with someone who lives on the phone. I was watching, rewatching, you know, I watch things in the bathtub, I watch things in the

kitchen. You know, the news is too different. You have a TV in your bathroom. I got a TV in my drawers. I got a TV everywhere. I love TV. But yes, in the bathtub I watch movies. And I was watching one from, I think it was from 2011, called Crazy Stupid Love.

Not a genius movie, but not bad. Yeah, it's fun. Yeah, it's fun. Ryan Gosling. They do the Patrick Swayze leap, right? Don't they dance? Is that the one? Yeah, Ryan Gosling and Emma Stone. Emma Stone and Steve Carell.

They do the, yeah, that Patrick Swayze. I'm not up to that part. There was a part where he takes his shirt off and of course you remember that. Sorry, I didn't mean to ruin it. No, no. No, no, I've seen it before. Yeah, it's fun.

But I'm just saying, I'm watching this and it takes... Okay, so here's my review or recap. Okay, I'm not going to ruin it. It's fucking 15 years old if you haven't seen it. It didn't miss the great, it's not Citizen Kane, but it's cute, okay. So, it's, most of it takes place in a bar. Steve Carell is married to Julianne Moore,

and in the first scene she wants a divorce, okay. And so he's like this, you know, schlubby guy who's out there now single. So he goes to this singles bar. This is why I'm telling this story, because the singles bar, and I'm thinking, this is 2011, and this is like, it could be from the 1300s, this is so out of date, that people go to a,

that's the main set, he goes to a single bar where Ryan Gosling every night is scoring with hot chicks who go to singles bar to be chatted up by guys who have lines. And it's like, okay, first of all, today, guys can't even talk to girls. So that's not gonna happen. They'd all be on their phones.

Women are afraid of places like that because they get roofied by the incels. Again, this is only 2011. And already, this is again, to somebody who's just starting out going, you know, in their dating life, 18, 19, 17, whatever it is, this is like, you might be in the Civil War. Why don't you just have something in the barn where we're sitting on the barrels and churning

butter before we meet somebody. And that's the dividing line, I think. And we're strangers in a strange land, and they're cyborgs. I mean, they have the phone. They're almost like part computer. And they don't. It's funny with journalism because they don't want to make calls. They'll text someone, but they don't want to pick up the phone.

Even texting sometimes is too much. It's a challenge. Yeah, right. Which is amazing. And the idea of actually confronting somebody and saying, this is just not working out. Right. Right. That would just never, in fact, even putting it in text,

they just go. Now, have you dated someone where you had that divide? Where they were very. Whenever I not. Yes, but I found one who isn't. But man, yes, there's a lot of computers. But I mean, it's, yeah, it's, that to me is going to be, and already people are identifying this,

but I don't think they know how much, like you say, cyborgs. I was watching the Taylor Swift endless concert. It's taken months to get through that. Nikki Glaser made me do it. She said, okay, I've talked about Taylor Swift. She's fun. I like her, she's a sweet person.

I don't get the music, enough said. But like everybody, when they cut to the audience, all you see are phones. No one is experiencing this through their eyes. Right. They have to put this artificial filter that somehow makes it better and they're also recording it? Right.

So, yeah. So when I'm covering, let's say I was on Deadline writing about the Trump address recently, and my assistant is watching it through his phone. He's not watching the TV with me and I'm like, let's both look at the TV, but no, that is not going to happen. Even the TV is not real. No. I mean, it's real, but you know what I mean.

No, I know. It's not like Lincoln. Yeah. Oh, there's Lincoln. That's the motherfucker himself right there. But there's some like filter in there and I'm like, let's just pay attention to this. But no. I don't know what my World War II parents would say if they just suddenly ripped and winkled back to life.

And I just can't imagine what they would think of anything. I mean, they were lifelong liberal Democrats. They put that in me, and I think I basically kept the faith, although I won't go to stupid Woke Town with you. But I don't know, I don't think they would either. I don't know. My father was, as Irish Democrat, loved Kennedy and poked John Doe as you get. We had a huge picture of JFK. I cannot 100% predict that he wouldn't be a Trumper. Yeah. I don't know.

My father wouldn't, but I wonder. I don't think my mom would, but I can see parts of Trump she would like. She did feel we were sending too much foreign aid and a lot of the things he harps on. And I think she would like, she liked, like, she liked, funnily enough, she became a Republican with Reagan because she loved Ronald Reagan, especially in a tuxedo. She loved him. But then she loved Clinton because he was optimistic and talked to her. I think she would like the fact that Trump keeps talking to his fans.

He keeps the company. He talks to anybody. Yeah, but also he talks to them in a way Barack Obama or you know other Church W Bush don't talk to Fans the way they would talk to their wife or a friend and Trump does You know, it's very he would tell people at rallies anything he would tell Melania, probably more. If Trump and Obama were sitting here right now, they wouldn't agree on a lot, but you know what they would both say?

Boy, that Maureen Dodd was hard on me. Well, as my publisher- Is that confirm or deny? Confirm. But my publisher, Trump, called us after the 2016 election. He called the Times, and he came over, and we had a big meeting with him. And he began complaining about me. And the publisher said, Mr. Trump, or President Trump,

it's not your fault. it's just your turn. Wow. Now that's a great title. Yeah. Remember the book? Oh, I should have used that as the title. Well, I have another shot at it. That's, there's the title.

Yep. So next time the title thing comes up and you email it about the title, I'll forget this because I'm a part of it. Okay. All right. So you remember. I'm remembering. Yeah. Yeah. So I have become, partly because of some things I've been reading in your columns, because

you love to reference them, a big classic movie fan lately. Oh wow. I never did it. There were a lot of ones I had missed. I saw Breakfast at Tiffany's. And I know you and I have talked about whores in movies. Yes, and I loved your editorial. Oh, I thought that was.

It's so funny because when I was at Columbia. Whores are having a moment. Yeah, I was at Columbia getting my graduate degree in English Literature a couple years ago. Yep, I got it. And I was in a class of pre-Renaissance plays and the teacher, this British guy goes, this woman character, he goes, what is she?

And I looked down at the footnotes and I go, oh, she's a whore. And the whole class, all the students and the teacher were like, oh! And the teacher goes, Maure students and the teacher were like, and the teacher goes, Maureen, she's a sex worker. And this is like before Shakespeare. Just like I said.

Right. Yeah. Can't say more. Yeah. So your degree is from Columbia? Yes, it was much more valuable. You know, I didn't have rich parents to pay for it, so it was very expensive. So when you go to Columbia, do they give you the keffiyeh when you first get there,

or is it when you go on the... Thank God my time... Because Invitada is the only global solution, Maureen. My time there was before that, and so it was very peaceful, thank God. Oh, it was before that. Right before. But Breakfast at Tiffany's, they're both whores. See, I never, I always-

Well, that's the same with Pretty Woman. They're both. He's not a whore. Well- He's a businessman. Right, but he's- Phil, listen to yourself. But he's, it's funny- He's a businessman.

This is funny. You would like this, listen, they're cutting words out of- Oh, Jesus. You know, they're cutting words out of, you know, they're saying we shouldn't use certain words like they're eight different gender words. But one of the words that they're trying to cut out is prostitutes. And that's such a useful word in Washington. Yeah. Well, you, but prostitute, you know, is a word if you look it up in the dictionary,

the first definition doesn't mention sex, it just just says it's doing something you hate for money. Yeah, there's so many men. And you can prostitute yourself. But that's the... Politicians who are prostitutes. Okay, but that's not... But in Breakfast at Tiffany's, no, he's a man whore. He's got this lady who you see in a few scenes, and she writes him...

Patricia Neal, she takes care of him. Takes care of... He's a boy tory. He's a whore. Yeah. There's nothing wrong with it. He's more of a... But...

...capped man. Whatever it is, he's a writer who's not selling anything, and he gets by. But that's what I never, I always heard, oh it's Audrey Hepburn, she's a hooker and it's like, oh wow. Well you know, originally Truman Capote wanted to be Marilyn Monroe, which would have made, well, it would have made more sense because she's supposed to be kind of a hillbilly and a singer. Right, right. You know, and because it was Audrey Hepburn,

they completely whitewashed what she did for a living. So you just thought she was a party girl. No, no, no, no, no, no. Whitewashed is not what they did. The times were just so different. Here's what it is. She goes out with gentlemen. Of course, this is a chaste era

where you don't ever see any sex. She goes out with gentlemen who give her $50, which- To go to the ladies room. To go to the washroom, yeah. Okay, well $50 in 61 was what, a thousand? Yeah. Okay, so they give her- See, you didn't believe the washroom thing.

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I'd never seen that. Oh, I love that. Except for her wig. It makes her look like George Washington. You're talking about Barbara Stanwyck? Yeah, I love Barbara Stanwyck. Is she that cute? She was my dad's favorite actress.

She has a sexy way about her. I guess for the era. I mean, in the first scene where he sees her, I mean, she's got an ankle bracelet, which apparently gives him wood like you can't believe. And he's like... But it's so funny. apparently gives him wood like you can't believe. And he's like, but it's so funny, again, the sensibilities of different eras.

This is like, I think about the phones and like we're of different species from 2011, but from 1944 or whatever that movie was. I mean, okay, he meets her, the first scene, she's married. This is the old one about the femme fatale who gets some stupid schlub to kill her husband for. Right? That's that.

And then I watched two other movies with the same plot. Body Heat. Yeah, because it's always. It's great, it's a great plot. Yeah, the woman's always... It's great. It's a great plot. Yeah. The woman's a vixen and the guy's a sap. Right. And then I watched one that came out just a couple of years ago called Careful What You Wish For. Nick Jonas is the sap. You've got to watch Out of the Past. That's my favorite.

Is that the same plot? Yes, but it gets a little twist at the end. It's Robert Mitchum, Kirk Douglas, our old friend, and Jane Greer. It's the perfect film noir. I based my whole, when I started in journalism, it was mostly men and I was terrified. So I would watch film noir to see how the women kind of dominated, you know, and take tips from them.

Not as a femme fatale, but as somebody, you know, they would always come in and say something like, quite the hacienda, or they'd say something that would put them in back on their heels. So I wanted to be coached by these very strong women. There's a lot of snappy dialogue and double indemnity, but of course, it does, I mean, it makes so little sense, unless you lived in that era and you understood that things were so chased on the surface, at least in media, that you just had to indicate things.

So he meets her for five minutes in the first scene. He's an insurance guy. He goes to the house. She's married. The husband's not there. And he immediately is hitting on her. Mm-hmm. OK, and nice ankle bracelet, baby. And, you know, it's...

So there's an attraction. We see that. Then he goes back a second time and kind of gets it that she wants him to kill her husband. Yeah. So he's like, I'm not the sap who's gonna do that. Get another sap in here. I'm not a sap. Right. So goes to his apartment.

Of course, that night, knock on the door, it's her. By the end of that scene, they're kissing and saying, I love you. It's like, it just, they're not- But she didn't mean it, Bill. But they're not, they're just not concerned with realism the way later decades were. Thank God. That's what I love about that. I can't pass that. Oh my God, wait.

It's just so stupid. I love you giving the plot of classic movies to another. Okay. So that's that one. And you know. This is like Masterpiece Theater, sort of. Right. Okay.

So Body Heat is 40 years later, and much better, and hot. I mean, wow, I forgot how much nudity and grabbing his Johnson on screen. It's for the early 80s, it was ahead of its time, I think. Maybe that's why it was such a big hit, because that probably was taking it to another level. But it's the same thing.

It takes place in Florida. It's super hot. The heat is like a character in the movie. They're all sweating completely. So he's this guy, he's a lawyer, but he's not doing great. He's kind of down on his luck, but hot, gets laid a lot. And she's the lady who wants to kill her husband, who in this one isn't bad,

and in Double Indemnity the husband's mean. This one he's just kind of like, it's Richard Crenna. Not that bad. It's like, you know, this plot goes back to Macbeth. Macbeth had a nice boss, but the wife said, no, you've got to kill him, take his job. You're right. It is a little lady Macbeth. Yeah, and also-

But she stayed with Macbeth, right? No, I think- Or she would have? No, she- Because these ladies just want to, they want to kill two birds with one stone. They want to get rid of the husband and then get his money and cut out the sap who helped them. Yeah. This is my favorite genre.

Oh, really? Yeah. I'll think of some more for you. So, body heat is much better and hotter. And there's that funny scene with the little girl. Yes. I didn't quite understand that. Like, the little girl witnessed him. He comes over one night. He's been fucking the lady who wants to kill her husband, Catherine Turner, and he sees a woman standing there

who looks just like her from behind. And because they've been fucking, he says, hey, lady, you want to fuck? And she turns around, and it's not Catherine Turner. It's her friend who looks just like her, who we find out, I won't ruin the plot at the end, but that's very important to the plot. And he's embarrassed,

but now somebody else knows about them. And then the little girl who's her daughter, she sees Kathleen Turner blowing him. And then she doesn't identify him because she said it was a bald man. Remember? A bald man, why? Because she saw his.

Oh, she's talking about his dick. Yeah. See, just call me. I'll explain these movies to you. They were joking about that. It's Ted Danson, by the way, who plays the friend. Yes. Oh. Yeah, I'm not good at doing that. That's one thing I've always needed a girlfriend for. When I haven't had a girlfriend, I just don't understand why we... I watch them, but

I'm always the guy going, is that the same guy? Who was it in the other? Okay. What is your all-time favorite movie? Saving Private Ryan. Wow. So you didn't think Shakespeare in Love should have won the Oscar?

You know what? You could test me on almost any other year and I wouldn't know what the movies were. That year I remember vividly because I was so bitter. Yeah, see now we're going to have our disagreement. You liked Shakespeare a lot more than... I loved it. And I have an interview with Tom Stoppard in here.

Because you're a Shakespeare freak. Yeah, and I told Tom Stoppard how much I loved it. It's in the book and even he didn't seem to like defend it that much. Well, okay. I mean, yeah. Maybe this has to do with the fact that my parents were in World War II, met there. My dad was in World War I.

No. Yeah, well he was 61 when I was born. Oh, right. Oh my God. So there's still time, Bill. No, I'm past 61. There's time. Oh my God. So there's still time, Bill. No, I'm past 61. There's time.

There is not time, but that's okay. I find that liberating. So go ahead. Yeah. Okay. So like my father had died, I don't know, a few years before this. Now, to say I was a puddle who couldn't get out of... How old were you then? When he died.

When he died, yeah. Oh, I was in my 30s. Oh. You know, I was not a... Yeah. But, you know, I mean, we all gotta go sometime. I'm just saying that, you know, you don't process something always right away.

And in that movie, well, first of all, I love World War II movies and I love Spielberg, and it is just an amazing movie. But it starts with Private Ryan as present day. It's the 90s. Right. And of course, he looks just like my father, like men look like that,

with the same exact kind of bad shirt my father would wear. So already I'm like, verklemped, I don't know what the word, spilkes is one of those Jewish words that means you have an upset stomach. And then the movie, and then it reverts back at the end. And so I think I stayed in, I think it took me like 20 minutes

before I could leave the theater. Oh my gosh. I know, I was so, yeah, and I was like on a first date or something. Oh my gosh, so how did that go over? Poor girl, that era, I just took a day. Well she must have loved that, right? It took a day everywhere.

Did she love that? I don't remember, because I mean, she wasn't bad about it. OK, so when I was 13, my brother took me to see Hamlet in, you know, our park in DC. And I immediately decided Hamlet was my boyfriend. And then it turned out that he was the worst boyfriend in literary history. Like a few you commit suicide and he treats her terribly.

And he's indecisive. I think that, yeah. Which gives women the ick. Yeah, I think that explains a lot. But in the meantime, I did fall in love with Shakespeare, I love Shakespeare and Love because of that. Was it a good movie? I loved it. I just thought it was super clever. I love Tom Stoppard. Produced by Harvey Weinstein.

Oh yeah, well there's that. But, go ahead, Maureen. Yeah, okay. Keep liking it. Well, I didn't. First you tell us you're a drug addict. I'm a drug addict. I'm a drug addict.

I'm a drug addict. I'm a drug addict. I'm a drug addict. I'm a drug addict. I'm a drug addict. I'm a drug addict. I'm a drug addict. I'm a drug addict. But go ahead, Maureen. Keep liking it. Well, I didn't use it. First you tell us you're a drug addict. Yeah. Now you're supporting rapists. Shakespeare-loving drug addict.

But I did one of these pieces on Judi Dench, and I loved her. But I didn't use it because she had Harvey Weinstein's name tattooed on her bum. And I'm not sure she would want to read about that now. Who did? Judy Dench. Why? Because he provided her with a lot of great roles, including that role as the queen in

Shakespeare in Love, where she was only on screen for 12 minutes and she won an Oscar. She's probably the only girl he didn't try to fuck. That's why he's got his name tattooed on her. There's a story about Uma Thurman and Harvey in the book. Oh, in the book. And it's funny because a lot of guys have told me they read it twice. Well, I remember it vividly. Well, it was one of the more jarring ones. I mean, that's like a reporter's dream

that when you get somebody to open up about. It was a complicated story, though, because it involved Quentin also. But they're still friends. But she wanted to get out this story of how he had been careless in the Carmen Gia scene and killed Bill, and she was hurt by that.

But then he talked about it and said she was right, so. Yes, I mean, I'm sure everybody could be more careful. On the other hand, he didn't cut off anybody's head with a helicopter. Remember that guy? Yep. I mean, I'm just saying. Movie sets are dead.

It's all relative. Dangerous places, and it's all relative. I mean, they really are. Yeah. I mean, you know, Tom Cruise. How many movies were you in? I, well, let's see. I did my first Tonight Show in August of 82, and it went well, so they asked me back in

November, and then I did it New Year's Eve. This was a big feather in my cap, going into 1983, my third Tonight Show. What did that feel like? It felt like time to move to California, and that's what I did. I used their ticket because they would, you know, you had to pay, and then you could, and it was first class because that was the union,

thank you union, got that first. I would trade it in as we all did back then. It was like $1,800. I'd fly coach for $200 and make $1,600 on the ticket, which was four times what I made for the show. So I was like, oh, I'm moving to California. And I put three suitcases together and I moved to California.

And that night Joel Schumacher was watching The Tonight Show and cast me in DC Camp, which I've always thought was a horrible movie, but people still like it. Was that set in DC? It was set in DC. I was there for six weeks. Oh, wow.

In a hotel room with Gary Busey. You tried that. Oh my God. You think you had trouble with the pot. Die, kid Gary. But he is crazy. But yeah, I mean, it was fun. I mean, to be 27 years old and in a movie and, you know, so that was my first movie.

And then I did, you know, the classic Cannibal Women and the Avocado Jungle of Death, which actually is a funny movie, Pizza Man, same director. What was the plot of Pizza Man? Donald, it's 1990, and Donald Trump is in the movie as a lookalike with it. And yet he's like the punchline to the whole thing. It's about a cab driver who's just trying to collect his $15 and it takes him on. It's a film noir. You should see it.

It's a film noir. I am going to see it. Good luck getting it. It's a film noir parody. But you're not a sap. No, I'm bogey. Oh, you're a bogey. I'm the hard-boiled detective. Oh, well, you know, this is funny.

When Trump was thinking of running for president in 2015, shortly before he did, he was vying to play the president in Sharknado 3. True story. That is a true story. I'm sure. So it was one leader of the three world. When was the last time you talked to him? Interviewed him?

Saw him? He, well, when I promote, I had a book about Trump and Hillary in that election, the year of voting dangerously. And I was on Michael Smirconish at CNN on Saturday morning at nine o'clock and I'm thinking, who is up watching this at nine o'clock? And Trump was. And I was critical of him.

And afterwards I ran into Jared Kushner and Ivanka at a dinner party in DC and Jared took me aside and he said, you know, my father liked you but now he thinks you've gone crazy. And I said, well, I think he's gone crazy. And Jared said, well, if you do two tweets in a column, or two columns in a tweet, you can get back on his good side. Oh God. And I was like, no, that's not gonna happen.

Oh my God, it's like a priest saying, three Hail Marys and two Our Fathers. Yes, which I often had to do. Your penance was two tweets and a column. Yeah, we were bargaining over. two tweets in a column. Yes, yeah. We were bargaining over them. Everything is so transactional. Yes. But I'm curious, what kind of dinner party

is there in DC where you find yourself with the Kushners? Yeah, we have a journalist dinner. David Bradley has it. And he's a Victorian gentleman. He doesn't make his guests feel uncomfortable, so they feel safe there. And they invite newsmakers, and it's a bunch of journalists, and then we talk to them and that kind. It wasn't, I don't know, that kind. It wasn't, I don't. But can you be in the same room with the enemy? I mean, I can. I pride myself on, don't fucking tell me

who I can hang out with. If I want to take Ann Coulter to the opera, I will you asshole. And I think we need more of that, not less of that. But you just don't see that. The Kennedy Center, which I'm sure is close to where you live, OK, I get how awful it is, what Trump is doing to it,

because it is an art center. But you know what? I know where that comes from. Now, maybe I'm wrong about this, because I'm only getting it from watching the TV show, which I've watched every year, where they give away five Kennedy Center honors to great people of the arts,

and it's always a big movie star, and somebody else you know, and then an opera singer and some dancer, and you know, like culture vultures know, but I don't. So you skip through those and then you get to and this year it was the Grateful Dead and Francis Ford Coppola. Okay. I didn't see again maybe I'm wrong but watching it I did not see one face on that screen either in the audience and there are a lot of audience shots where you you know, and of course it's a very uptight audience.

I would hate to have to, like, you know, there's always that announcer, and, you know, here to present, you know, and, uh, please welcome Morgan Freeman, and then, you know, he comes out, and they do a tribute, and it's very polite, and you really wouldn't want to be edgy. I would be, like, the totally wrong person to be in this room under any capacity and I'm sure I never will. Okay, but like I did not see one face either on the stage or in the audience shots that look like they might have voted for Trump.

And I just thought, you know, invite Ted Cruz. Would it kill you? Don't you think he likes the Godfather too? Don't you think somebody in the Senate is a grateful dead fan who's a Republican? You know, you just lost an election. Maybe now's the time to reach out a little. I didn't vote for them either, but would that kill?

So I get it a little bit when they get into office and they go, you know what, assholes who stuffed our heads in the locker, here's what you get now. Yeah, but this is what is so crazy about watching Trump, because he's got these two sides. So one side is kind of scary because it's authoritarian. He and Ilan are trying to undermine the judiciary and Congress. You know, Congress is in charge of these agencies, not these Doge kids. And the press, Elon keeps saying that the people on X are the press now and legacy press is dead.

So in a way, like Dick Cheney, they're messing with checks and balances. But on the other hand, Trump still has that wacky kind of funny side where he goes down and takes over the Kennedy Center. And now he wants to give the awards to dead people. He wants to give the awards to Elvis, Babe Ruth, and paparazzi. And then he goes down and he starts making this speech about how he thinks they should do cats, which was also George W. Bush's favorite play. Really? Yes. And so he thinks...

You know the movie is like a joke of all time, right? Yeah. Okay. But Trump says at first he didn't get it, but then he began to look at the beautiful bodies of the men and women in gold tights and he got mesmerized. He's giving this like kind of semi-homohomorotic, then he did say, well, I like the women better. But then he's got that wacky side, so he's redecorating the Oval Office and making it like Mar-a-Lago.

He hasn't brought up the gold. He has a gold thing with him on Mount Rushmore. But he has a gold TV. Wait, let me tell you, a gold TV remote. He put gold leaf around the famous mantelpiece in the Oval Office that you know from TV. He wants to hang a chandelier and they're trying to talk him out of it and he won't be talked out of it.

He wants to make it like Mar-a-Lago. I think that you see it actually, I think in the SNL impersonation, that that wacky, humorous side is what makes people less afraid of the authoritarian side. It is so human. Yeah. And not only less afraid, but yeah, less afraid because what we always fear about politicians is that they're not telling us something. They're just not to be trusted.

Yes. Spin. What does spin mean? It means like there are people in this world who when you talk to them, like when I talk to you, I know I'm getting the complete unvarnished truth. And then there are people in this world who when you talk to them, you never feel that. You can't put your finger on it maybe, but you just feel something is being elided or it's being exaggerated or it's being spun, but it's just not the complete truth.

And here's a guy who, I mean, as he sees the truth, it isn't often. Well, it's a mix of lies and truth. Well, it's his impression of the truth. If he doesn't like Zelensky, his approval rating is 4%. But it's really 50-7. OK. But impressionistically, poetically, it's 4%. And his fans accept that. But not

just that. It's like, can we trust this guy? Well, he just voices his interior monologue. The thing that we all edit, no one just says what's in their head except him. So if he is thinking homoerotically about- He just says it. Tights. Or Arnold Palmer's cock, you know, he'll just battle dominate the news for a week. Well it's interesting because you know I have my sister Peggy on book tour with me and she's a Trump voter and a Republican. And all the brothers, right? Yes.

But it's interesting to see things from her point of view. But even she kind of rolls her eyes and says she wishes he wouldn't keep saying he won the election. She doesn't want him to sell gold sneakers and tacky things when he's president. So you know, there are a few things she's objecting to. You've got to put up with a lot, and they do. They're like, you know, that celebrity spouse who always has to act humble on the red carpet. She puts up with me, shut up, you're George Clooney, it's fine, I'm sure she's fine.

You don't seem like that much of a nightmare. She said to tell you that she saw one of your early shows and it was the funniest thing she's ever seen. I mean, my family is in love with you because you are not just on one side or the other. You just say it as it is. Well, I love you. You know, it's funny that you really have to reiterate over and over again where you are because each side wants to only pick the things that they agree with and then pretend

that the other side of you doesn't exist, but it does exist and I have to always say it. But my big problem with liberals is that they basically...I mean, liberals is one thing, but woke, okay. They basically forgot and don't defend and don't want to defend what liberalism is. I mean, all the things that I think make us great, like personal, individual liberty, rule of law, what we would call Western values,

scientific inquiry, human rights, women's rights, gay rights, freedom of speech, trial by jury, all these things that were, I'm sorry, invented in Athens and Rome and Paris and London and Philadelphia. I guess they're bad because they came from white people. I don't know. But they want to turn their back on this.

That's Western civilization. That guy that they just threw out of the country, and I'm against it because he didn't break any laws. It's just a freedom of speech thing. I defended him even though he's a dirtbag who I hate. But his slogan was they want to tear down Western civilization. I mean, saying it out loud, the out loud part, tear down. Well, Western civilization, I think, is a good thing. And basically, that's where the liberals lost me and lost their way. They forgot about Western civilization because woke is all about identity and not about ideas. Right. Well

so my dad was so excited the night Harry Truman was elected he stayed up all night. My brother was so excited the night Trump was first elected he stayed up all night. And Democrats weren't paying attention to what happened here with the working class. And also they just stopped being any fun. I mean, they made everyone feel that everything they said and did and every word was wrong. And people don't want to live like that feeling that everything they do is wrong. No. Do you think we're over that era? Do you think that? No. I think, I mean, I think Democrats are just in a coma. They haven't figured out.

Right. But no, the woke are not giving up on that. I mean, we saw it with the seven dwarves movie just came out. Oh, right. And the, you know. There are no dwarves, right? They fought about the dwarves. It's so funny, though, this is again one of my big problems with progressives.

They're so stupid so often about things that they find their way back to something that's very un-progressive. Like you think getting jobs for people, very progressive. Not if you're a dwarf. Because there are dwarfs out there who wanted to play these parts who couldn't because it was somehow politically incorrect

to portray dwarfs as, I don't know, miners who know Snow White. It's a fucking crazy character that somebody invented for children. And you're arguing about whether it's right if real dwarves play dwarves. There are dwarves in the world. And there are jobs for them that you lost on there.

And then Snow White loves Palestine. Like I wasn't gonna see this movie anyway. But you know, people who get their news from TikTok, just please shut the fuck up. It was, I think the Democrats just got to have a suffocating persona where you just couldn't do anything or say anything that wasn't to be criticized. Somebody once wrote, the politics of purity makes people stupid and mean.

Was that you? It was you, fool. Oh, really? I was going to say, great line. You don't remember it? Not at the moment. I'm scared. I'm too scared.

Scared of what? I'm scared of TV and you and me. Everything. I'm scary? Well, because I know if you chose to, you could viscerate me. I could say the same about you. Oh, that's true. But mine will happen on Sunday.

This is a good film noir. The last person in the world I would ever want to eviscerate, really, is you. That's how I feel about you, too. I know. So why are we scared? I don't know. I can hear my heart beating. We basically agree. I'm going to have beating. But we basically agree.

I'm going to have a drink. We basically agree. I've had like three. We basically agree. I mean, honestly, I wish you would write more. I wish you would turn your poison pen more on the woke. Because when you do it, it's great. I understand why there's so much more on the right.

And look, you know, I've been... And now the right is kind of getting like that. They're kind of getting into cancel culture. I told you about the words. Of course, they would never left it. They canceled Colin Kaepernick. Oh, yeah. Nothing more quicker or cancel-ier than that.

Right, right. Oh, they're total babies. There's total snowflakes about. I mean, please. Except for one guy. The one guy who can get away with any insult and they all come running back is Trump. Everybody who works for him, Lil Marco, Steve Bannon, they are so- I'm shocked about that.

I was watching Ted Cruz on TV today or yesterday. I was thinking, why did he come back, you know? Ted Cruz? After Trump. In fact, my sister Peggy got one of the few apologies that Trump ever gave because I was interviewing him and he's like, how's your sister? He knew she was a Trump voter.

And I said, she is not going to vote for you because you've been trashing Heidi Cruz and talking about women in these horrible terms. And I said, why don't you just apologize for that? That was horrible. And there was this long pause. And finally, he's like, okay, you know, I'm sorry I said that about her.

Really? Yeah. I had Ted Cruz on, and like everything I ever read was like the most disliked guy ever. Right. Like just this cyborg who was like programmed to be president when he was three years old and has never faltered, and I don't doubt he wants to be president.

When he was on the show, I just did not meet that guy. Matt Gaetz sat there. I did not meet a monster. That's my line now. Everyone's a monster till you talk to them. I mean, I disagree with a lot of stuff, and there's some real deal breakers in there, but I mean, I disagree with a lot of stuff, and there's some real deal-breakers in there, but I mean, Ted Cruz, he had a sense of humor.

Yeah. He just, I, so you must have had more encounters with him than I do, and I have heard that people even in the Senate, even his own party, really don't like him. But I don't. I just couldn't find why. Yeah, but that's what I love. I love that you talk to these people and that's what's horrible about being in Washington now because everybody's in their trenches and it's just like we picked up the Civil War where we left off or something.

Yeah. I mean, I was at a big party the other night. Michael Kivis is, no secret, it was in the paper, 44th birthday party and Bill and Hillary were there and Oprah and you know, I mean Michael Kivis is the most connected guy in the world and he knows everybody and you know, Bill, David Geffen and you know, lots of Billy. And Bezos and like in the past, Elon would have been there too. I met Elon a number of times at Keebus' house.

Right. What'd you think of it? Pleasure. Yeah. I mean, this is before he went full on. My piece in the book is very. Right, right. No, I mean.

I still think he's going to be the one, if there's killer robots or killer AI, he's going to be the one, if there's killer robots or killer AI, he's going to be the one to save us. I'm sure nobody wants to hear that, but- To give him his due, he was talking about how we need to be on our guard against AI before I was even on my radar. Right, he called it summoning the demon. Yes, when many other people were saying, you're crazy, what is this?

But he also wanted to be an advocate for carbon-based beings. He wanted to be humanity's advocate. That's why he started this whole Mars thing. He said he wanted to die on Mars, just not on impact. I've done a number of things on how silly it is to go to Mars. I'll never understand that or his population thing. But the Mars thing, I mean, I always thought Elon would be the one to save us from global warming,

because we have to plainly have to invent our way out of it. But now I don't think we will, because he doesn't give a shit about Earth. He wants to go to Mars. He treats planets the way he does baby mamas. Next. You know? Yeah. So. He and Trump and Elon remind me of like, you know, people always ask me if they're Shakespearean.

But I think they're more like Greek gods, you know? They're sort of capricious and cool, and they do what they like. It's like watching Zeus and Dionysus, the god of fertility, you know, they're sort of capricious and cool and they do what they like. It's like watching Zeus and Dionysus, the god of fertility, you know. It isn't like watching Shakespeare. But, but I can't, like, in times past, he might have been at this party. Yeah. No, he's in Washington. He was, you know, I don't know if he was invited. I don't know if like that is just a deal.

He's very busy, Bill. I know he's busy. No, I'm don't know if that is just a deal. He's very busy, Bill. I know he's busy. No, I'm just saying. He's busy destroying the government. I'm just saying, I don't know if he could be in that room. And it wasn't all, it wasn't all, Michael Kivis has friends on both sides. It wasn't all just liberals.

But he worked for Hillary Clinton and he's very close to the Clintons. So yes, I mean, mostly, but you know, I mean, he has friends, a lot of billionaire friends and billionaires are very often Republicans. But could Elon Musk be there now and not feel unwelcome? No, I was talking, you were talking about movies that are out of date. Maybe that's on him. Yeah, like Advise and Consent, where you see both parties mingling at dinner parties

and solving problems. And Gene Tierney is a lovely hostess. No, people do not do that. They're in their corners. No. So how does that end? Well, I was going to ask you, how do you think? I mean, do you think...

I think we have to have the scene at the end of the movie where the statue of Liberty's arm is just sticking out of the sand. Where I don't think it gets better before it completely crashes. I know that sounds pessimistic. But do you think... But I don't know how to get back because the hatred is so deep But do you think that Democrats should fight fire with fire and get a showman? I mean, it's funny because Elon Fetterman is who I suggest You know Elon Musk was was known as the PT Barnum of sci-fi sci-fi PT Barnum and then Trump is PT Barnum

But do you think I mean, you know, I interviewed George Clooney, I had an interview with him, and I'd always heard people say he was charming, and I was like, nah, I'm sure he's not that charming. And he gave me a five-hour interview. So, day went to night, so, you know, yeah, the guy is charming, and I said to him, what you think of running? Because yeah, the guy is charming. And I said to him, what do you think of running?

Because basically, the Democrats need an attractive host body to stuff all their issues into that people will be drawn to. I don't think George Clooney really suggests regular guy, working class. No, I know. I know, but I still think people are drawn to celebrities. A guy who's in shorts. Oh, so your interview with Josh Shapiro was great.

Oh, thanks. I had never really heard him talk that much. He was so appealing. And that, you know, I was watching it with my sister today, and she said I would vote for him. I mean, that's what the Democrats need. Yeah, they need someone who could lure people back to their party.

Oh yeah. I saw this thing, they're gonna lose California, New York, Illinois, are all losing seats. Because people vote with their feet. And they're going to Texas, Florida, Utah, all red states, some other state, Arizona maybe or something. But yeah, and this is just because we're overtaxed,

we're overregulated, we can't afford a house here. And if that trend keeps going, even this many seats lost, is the house is very often 218 to 216, something like that. OK, we're talking about six or eight seats that are definitely going to be red now. You could have to do something drastic. And do you like Gab in tune? Especially now.

I always thought he was the guy because he's great at being a politician, looks great, just the gift of Gab. And also very smart, has the facts in his head. He doesn't have to look up something. He does the work. Right. And unlike Obama, he was willing to go spar on Fox. Yes.

And now, I mean, you saw this. He name-checked me, saying I'm doing a podcast and I want to do like Bill does, talk to both sides, not be ideologically captured necessarily by the left. Well, this is a big change. He's on the show next week. Oh, wow. He's top of the show on the 28th. Yeah. So... Yeah. Well, I mean, there are people who think because of Kamala having Beyonce and Taylor

and people on her side that Democrats should just stay away from celebrities altogether. They should. I think it's a negative. I don't think it's far from working. I think it turns people off, turns me off a lot of the times. Like Rachel Zegler, not going to vote for her. But they've got to find someone who's alluring and, you know. Yeah, charismatic. Yeah. I mean, I thought Josh Shapiro and Gretchen Whitman would have been a better to hit.

Last week about Gavin, like, the same things they say about him they said about Clinton. He's too slick. Yeah, yeah, yeah. He's so slick he wins. Right. You know, I see your paper, like, already tried to shit on him for this, and I'm like, you know, you know what you call a Democrat who infuriates the New York Times? Electable. Yeah.

He was out front on a lot of things. Yes, and he has the credibility. He has a kind of like, I did my time in the liberal trenches, mayor of San Francisco and all that. And it's like, if you can't understand about moving to the center and saving the party, yes, there will be so much carping about it. But that's the other reason why I think he'd be good, because I think he'll take it. He's not a bitch.

How else do you like? Well, I say Fetterman. I love that he just says it. He is Trump-esque in a number of ways, minus the things I don't like about Trump. I mean, he seems like just a regular guy. He doesn't give a shit what he says. He's got a brand.

I mean, he's just, he definitely has, I mean, that was my joke about it, was like if he ran with Pete Buttigieg, disability plus gay equals one person of color. You could get away with it, the Democratic Party. Yeah. The way he dresses in Congress is quite startling because it was only in the last few years they allowed women, not to wear, like they used to be banned for sleeveless.

Come on. Yeah, one of my former assistants who's a big political writer star now, Ashley Parker, trashed her recently on social, his social. Truth social. Truth social, yeah. Yeah, he truthed. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, he truthed it. Yeah, yeah. But she went in there one time. I forget if she had on cowboy boots or a sleeveless blouse or something, and they told her she

couldn't. I feel like the Republican Party has, I mean, apropos of what you said before about the Democrats no fun anymore. I feel like all the ladies who, you know, like, I'm not saying you really wanna have relations with anyone in Congress or a politician at all, but if you were bent that way, I mean, the ones who, like, you know,

Eric Idle is going, yeah, she's a goa, she's a goa, she goes, right, nudge, nudge, wink, wink, she goes, I mean, they're all in the Republican Party. I'm not saying they're doing anything, but the Kristi Nohms, the Lauren Boeberts, they all just seem, you know, is she a goa? I think the answer is, yeah, they have, whereas like AOC, you know, she's attractive, but you just, oh my god, you know, you just wouldn't, I wouldn't want to be on a date with her. I know she's married and I'm not asking.

I think she is married, yeah. No, I think she is. Is she? Yeah, no, she got married. Oh, I missed that. But you know, yeah, Washington was very titillated recently because Lauren Boebert, after some big thing, got in a cab with Kid Rock. And also, I was gonna ask you,

do you have a crush on Cristino? Given how you feel about dogs? Yeah, I wonder. In fact, Chico just lost his other eye when you said that. Yeah, exactly. No, but you know what I mean about the Republic? I mean, they just, uh...

Well, Democrats kind of lost sex appeal too, I think. They used to be kind of the sexy fun party, and they're not. Yeah, I mean, it's true. When I used to do jokes about, you know, where the punchline was something, something, stick up your ass. It was about Jerry Falwell. And now it's about the kind of prigs who are always up my ass.

Right. Exactly. Yeah, I know what you mean. So do you watch or listen to Two Angry Men, Harvey Levin's podcast about lawyers? No. Oh, it's him and Greg Geregos. What's his name? Oh, Mark Geregos. Mark Geregos. Yeah, who was one of the, what Susan McDougall's lawyer.

Because I'm watching this Trump thing, I'm thinking like, I mean, this is, I love this podcast because like, it's not just the bullshit people or whatever their opinion. It's like what the lawyers say. Oh, I love that. Because like, I'm watching this thing going on between Trump now and the judges. And, you know, do I want Venezuelan gangs out of the country? Yes. I mean, this is always my fucking dilemma. But that's like, that's-

Living in this America. Exactly, so that's not the mountain anyone's gonna die on. We're happy to see them leave, but then you're unraveling the Constitution. I know. Yeah. So like, I'm bringing the lawyer show up because like, I've said this for years,

like everybody talks about the law, like it's nothing. The law is whatever they say it is at any given moment. That's why when you see a lawyer, he's always in a room with a giant wall of law books behind him. Somewhere, one of those fucking books is something that will justify what I want to do anyway. So Trump is just like cutting out the middle man. That's another good film noir kind of thing, Double Jeopardy, have you seen that?

With Ashley Judd. Ashley Judd, I bet you I have. What's the plot, who else is in it? Her husband. Yeah, I have seen it. Her husband frames her for his own murder and she goes to prison, but then one of the inmates tells her that because of double jeopardy, she can get out and kill her husband.

And she does. Right. Well, not quite. There's also one called Eye of the Beholder. I love that. Explain it. He falls in love with her because he's looking at you? Yeah. I haven't seen it recently, but I thought it was really good and atmospheric.

I feel like it was a ripoff of Sharky's Machine. Do you remember that movie? Bagley, yeah. Burt Reynolds. Yeah, yeah. He's like a, he's a cop, he's gotta surveil this woman and then falls in love with her. Isn't that the basic thing?

Yeah, I love that plot. Yeah. By the way, it was not Burt Reynolds, it's a stalker. It's creepy. Even if he's a cop, you don't want to think about it. Right. But if he's a cute guy. Yeah. I mean, you wrote that in the Why Men Are Necessary book.

Yes, I did. Isn't it funny? My mom begged me before that book came out. She goes, please change it from a question to a declarative sentence, men. She wanted me to call the book Men Are Necessary. I was like, mom, she goes. Men are?

Yeah, she wanted me to call it Men Are Necessary. And I said, mom, you know, they're going to be fine with it. They get the numb teasing them. And she's like, no, they'll have their feelings hurt. Sure enough, no man would pick up that book. And I realized, no, always listen to your mother. I should have called it men are necessary.

Wow, that's interesting. Because you are, especially you. We are. Especially you. We are. We are. We are, not just for procreation. Lifting. Yes. I mean, Orwell had that quote, something like, most people sleep peaceably in their beds

at night, knowing other men do violence in their stead. Wow. Yeah. Go. What? You're showing me something. Before that, you thought I was an idiot? No, I like all these weighty quotes.

But it's true. I mean, we live cushy lives. And it's another thing that the kids really piss me off about. They have no perspective on how good they have it. They think they, they somehow think they live in the worst time ever. And they're so burdened by so many things. And some of them are just, did you see the woman

from Love is Blind who jolted her husband? No, you know, okay. I don't watch any of that. Oh, I don't watch. Oh. Are you crazy? But I read about it. Yeah, okay.

Okay, so it's Love is Blind. Yeah. It's some, you know. Are they on an island? No. No, they're, I guess they're blind dates and then they're gonna get married. I don't know. It's one of those.

Anyway, she's at the altar. She's about to marry this guy. At the last minute, it says, can't do it. Why? Because she found out that he didn't really think that much about Black Lives Matter. When that, not that he said anything terrible, he just, she asked him about it and he was like, I don't know, I haven't read that much about it. That was the end.

And I just have this one question for her, which is like, what have you actually done? Do you think that you're coming up short-husband to be, or you're just publicly jilted? What do you think you've done to actually improve whatever the situation racially you're upset about? And I don't think she can answer that question. Do you ever have a situation like that where someone said one thing and you were just totally turned off?

You mean got the ick? Mm-hmm. That's a really interesting question because it's so easy and so common for guys to give women the ick. Right. Guys who wanna get laid. Yeah. It's so hard to give women the ick. Right. Guys who want to get laid. Yeah.

It's so hard to give us the ick. I used to do a joke about that. Like I could, like if I was, when I was in my 20s, she could say anything. She could say, I'm a Nazi. And I'd be like, were you always interested in Germany or was it more of a political?

Yeah. Nothing would deter us. So it's, the older you get, one of the nice things is, yeah, you become more of a human being, you're less horny, so you can be more discriminating, and yes, it's very easy to give me the ick now. But. I remember this, I had this very, very good friend,

Michael Kelly, and he had to move to Cincinnati for a couple years to be a reporter and he didn't know anyone and he was trying to date and he finally went out on a date with this really cute girl. And somehow in the course of the evening when he was ordering wine, he realized she thought that burgundy wine was burgundy because it was colored burgundy. Lerd Burgundy, and he said to me, I had to decide if I was gonna say anything or I was gonna be very, very quiet because I really needed to go home with him.

So he was very, very quiet. And did it work? Mm-hmm. Yeah, but he was an onophile. He loved wine, so I don't think it had a long-term future. Yeah, but he was an onophile, you know. He loved wine, so I don't think it had a long-term future. Onophile. I know that word from the New York Times crossword puzzle.

I've got to give them credit for that. They need O-E-N-O, or letters that you really need when you're doing a puzzle. Yeah, that's the right word, right? I remember sometimes watching my mother do the Time Sunday puzzle with my father, and she'd say, they need the lettuce. True, sometimes you just need the lettuce. I mean, we're trying to write a crossword, it's not easy.

They need the lettuce. That sounds like a Woody Allen line. Like the end of Annie Hall, they need the lettuce. That sounds like a Woody Allen line. Like the end of Annie Hall, they need the eggs. Yeah. But I'd say of all the decisions, I've made so many bad ones and so many stupid things, but never getting married, priceless. Do people... Don't you think?

Well... I mean, you're one of the few people like me and Oprah and the Pope who have never gotten married. Yeah, no. I would love to be married. I think I would be really good at it. You would, I'm sure you'd be good at anything. Well, thank you.

But you know, the sacrifice has just seen, it's very hard to make your life and another life, when you think about how hard it is just to get your life each day, till now it's like two dragonflies who have to fly in tandem everywhere. You ever see them fly and everywhere they go, they're in tandem.

If you get out of tandem, then fighting and, you ever see them fly, and everywhere they go, they're in tandem. If you get out of tandem, then fighting, and you know, gunny sacking grievances that build up over the years, I mean, that's always what deterred me, was that it just, how do you avoid that? Well, there's a great part in the Al Pacino piece in the book where, you know, I'm pressing him and he did not like to talk about his love life and I'm asking him why he never

got married. And, you know, he said, well, if he could find someone who wouldn't mind living down the block, he might do it. Like didn't Bette Davis or some of these people like Sartre, they had apartments next door, but he wanted someone down the block. The modern rich people have solved that problem by building houses that take up a whole block. And then you can officially live in the same house, but you're really living down the block. Well, there is one person in the book who's like you and has absolutely no interest in marriage or kids, and that's Ray Fiennes.

And it was interesting to talk to him about that. He's a very interesting combination of, he's a real gentleman, like I went to the wrong restaurant and missed half our interview. And he said, don't worry, we'll do it tomorrow morning at breakfast. And very few movie stars would do that. So he made you breakfast? No. But he also has a kind of a hedonistic streak. He's a bit of a libertine.

And he said he was the oldest and he raised, you know, Guy in Shakespeare in Love was his brother. And he said he got rejected for Shakespeare in Love because Jory Roberts didn't fancy him. But he just has, you know, just no interest. He likes, he likes. It's funny you mention him because I just saw him. I never met him. I think I did meet him, but I saw him a couple of nights because it was just Oscar weekend. Right.

And the Vanity Fair party and the party probably Friday night, the agency parties, the WME, CAA parties. And I'd only seen him in the movies, where he very often plays a very serious character, very serious actor. Yeah, a Nazi. Boy, not that guy out at a party. No. You know, he's always had a big smile on his face,

and he's a goer. You should, he is a goer. But you should have him on this show. He's a really fascinating guy. And Andy, you know, he's friends with Andy Cohen. And Andy Cohen said he loves all kinds of women, whatever age, whatever shape. You put a woman in front of him and he can appreciate her.

Oh, wow. That's a superpower. Yeah. No, he's a goer. He's fun. Let's get him over here right now. Yeah, let's have a party. But I did want to tell you that people keep asking me, what Shakespearean character Trump

is like. And I finally found a similarity. You know how in Richard III, Richard is very malevolent, but he's funny. He's the hunchback. Right. Yeah. He gets the audience on his side because he's funny. And he walks up to the stage and he tells the audience what bad thing he's about to

do. He brings them in on it, but with humor. And I feel like Trump is like that, you know, and that binds him. Like a lot of audiences love Richard III, even though he's doing terrible things. He wants to kill his nephews and, you know, but if you bring, if you make them feel like you're confidants, that can take you a long way. Well, I could talk to you all night, but I have to be. Good night, sweet prince. I could lie and do a smooth exit,

but that's really what it is. I'm so happy I didn't faint. Two hours with you goes by like that. That was fun. Thank you so much. I'll probably be in DC shortly, so if you'd like to have lunch, I will be around. Anything you want to do, that would be fun. Really?

I'd love to go to one of those power restaurants where they powerful people have, is it, what was the place, the grill, or what was the place that's like the power? I want to go to the power place. It was like a place called Duke Seabirds and they were all steak houses. Of course. We had a morphing.

Men are making decisions. I mean steak at lunch. Yes, women are over. Steak and lunch, steak and decisions. We had our day lunch. Yes, women are over. Steak and lunch. Yeah. Steak and decision. We had our day.

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