Coffee Convos with Kail Lowry and Lindsie Chrisley - 123: A Conversation with Rachel Ross

Episode Date: September 24, 2020

This week, while Lindsie is away, Kail sits down with her friend Rachel Ross. The entire episode is dedicated to Rachel and her story about her experience at Provo Canyon School. Recently Paris Hilton brought light to the "school" in her latest documentary, which can be found on her YouTube channel. Rachel recounts the events that lead her to PCS, and what she experienced while she was there. #breakingcodesilence *TRIGGER WARNING* for sexual assault and abuse. This episode was sponsored by: BetterHelp, Tile, Shapermint, & Philo Have a question you want answered? Want to give Kail and Lindsie a call? Leave them a message at ?(609)-316-0060?. Music by Nathaniel Wyvern. Licensed under Creative Commons: By Attribution 4.0 License.

Hey guys, welcome to another episode of coffee combos, Lindsay's at the beach this week. So we are joined by my best friend, Rachel. And before I introduce her to the podcast, I wanted to preface this whole episode. Rachel came to visit and we decided to watch the This Is Paris documentary that is on YouTube. So, if you haven't seen it already, it's about Paris's life and like leading up to, I guess it starts with her childhood. Leading up to where she is as an adult now. And part of that, she talks about going to a school called PCS, which is Probo Canyon School in Utah. And this is a boarding school, Rachel? Boarding school?

Quote and quote. Quote and quote. More like a behavioral correctional center. Okay, so like a behavioral correctional school center. So, I'm going to welcome Rachel to the podcast and we're going to go in depth with... We're going to talk about the whole, let's talk about Paris Hill and its documentary and then we'll get into your whole story. So, Rachel, thanks for being on the podcast. I know this is going to be super emotional, so bear with us and if you are on your way to work, maybe turn it off and listen to it after because your mascara will be running down your face.

So, hey, Rachel. Hey. Okay, so we watched the Paris Hilton documentary together and my first thoughts were, I guess, that first of all, I love Paris after watching it. Me too. I collected her perfumes as a kid. Like, I remember the one perfume that she had. I bought all of them because it was being discontinued, but I love the scent so much that I was like, okay, I obviously need to stock up on this.

You need to clean out the shelf. But I did truly think of her as like a character, like her simple life character and Lindsey and I always talk about the simple life. Like, we love it and we think it's so funny and I really pictured her as being the character that she portrays, but in the documentary, it's actually the complete opposite and there's like real depth and like substance and all of those things. And I was pleasantly surprised and I really loved her. I agree. I mean, I learned a lot about her and it was definitely truth telling and we got to know a different side of her. And it really showed the human in Paris rather than the brand.

And America has known the brand for a long time and the personality and the character, but for her to let us really in and really get vulnerable and open up, it really just shed light to different parts of her and different depths to her. And even just some of the ways that she would talk about the way she handles business and things like that. It really just showed how multifaceted she really is. I think it in watching it too is like, there's a lot to be said about the entertainment, the people in entertainment in general. Absolutely. Like it's more than what you just see and it could totally be the complete opposite of what you see. It's like an iceberg.

You're only looking at, you know, that 15% above of the water, but really there's this whole world underwater. And I mean, even with you, I'm sure you can relate. People probably look at you and they're like, oh, she's this teen mom, but then you start talking about all these ventures and like, oh, wow, she's really business savvy. Wow, she's really smart. Wow, she's, you know, a world traveler. All these things that people might not necessarily assume just by the Kale Lowry brand. Okay. Yeah. I mean, and they sure as hell don't know, most of them don't know what I went through as a child either to lead me to make the decisions that I make. And I think that that's kind of what Paris was trying to explain.

But like I said, I was pleasantly surprised. I will say though, in knowing you and your story and kind of hearing everything about provoking in school, I was disappointed in her covering that portion of her life because I feel like there was so much more to be said. There was so much more damage and abuse and neglect that went on. And I feel like they only like dipped their toes into it. I agree. I mean, I think that she needed to kind of take us backwards to understand where she is currently, but I think that there was more emphasis on the rest than there was on what actually happened at PCS. And I think just as a fellow survivor, I was hoping for a little bit more depth instead of just kind of throwing out the words of abuse, neglect, things like that. I guess I wanted more, not only for myself to be able to relate to, but also for the rest of the world because she is on such a large platform. Right. And so that was kind of our moment. And so to have those parts, I guess kind of minimized, I was just really hoping that we would get like the nitty gritty, the deep dirt because that's what really needs to be brought to light.

I thought that the whole documentary was going to be about that. Me too. I was kind of interested to see that it was towards the end and then kind of... I think the documentary was an hour and like 45 minutes maybe and it was, I think the end, like maybe the end 20, 30 minutes. That would be my guess. And again, even just with the way they touched on it with her mom at the end, that was kind of just like little pieces towards the end. And I was kind of, again, looking for more, more so for our fellow survivors because of how we have to interact with our parents. Right. These are such big shoes to fill. And Paris did an amazing job as a fellow survivor, but also as the public.

I think she did a great way of getting the message out there, but there's just still so much story to be told. There really is. So, okay, let's go back and talk about what exactly it is. So I said that it was like a boarding school, but it's a behavioral correctional. Yeah. So we were kind of groomed and led to believe that it's a boarding school. And for all intents and purposes, that's what the school and our parents and all of the adults at that point in our lives were telling us it was. But truly, it is a behavioral modification place. I don't even know what they would actually label themselves. We know it's not true to what they do.

But when people say boarding school, people think like a rich boarding school in the Swiss Alps that, you know, you're just like still living your life. We were not. And there was more focus on abuse and neglect than there ever was on any type of education. And you would think that education would be huge at a school. I mean, I'm a school, you know, I'm guilty of threatening to send my kids to boarding school. Like I've said that to you. Right. And how did I come back like you can't do that? You know, I when I wasn't sure what to do was like, but in my mind, I'm thinking, okay, boarding school, you just don't get to see your family and do school all day.

Like that's literally how I pictured it. I never even thought about like the the chore aspect. I never thought of like even just the nurture aspect potential of even being sexually assaulted, abused, physically, any of that. Like I didn't think of truly being to deprived of your family and what that would actually mean for an adolescent. Right, because in the documentary, Paris Hilton says that there is not eight and nine year olds at PCS. So are you first of all, are you comfortable sharing your story and what happened to you? Absolutely. Okay, so I think. Let's start there. Okay, so my story was a little more recent than Paris Hilton's.

I attended PCS. We say PCS, but that's provoking in school. I attended PCS from March of 2003 until April of 2004. And kind of what led to me being sent there, I was sexually assaulted in November of 2002. It was November 7th, 2002. And I started rightfully so acting out and I started having a lot of just emotional issues because of it. The guy and his girlfriend were also have the chills already. I know this story, but everyone else doesn't know this story. The guy and his girlfriend, they were like stalking me and life had just got really crazy really, really quickly.

And so that was November. By January, things were a mess. Everyone knew my business. Everyone in school. In 2002, how old were you? I was 16. 16. So your emotions are going crazy. I mean, this is, you're trying to process it all. Absolutely. Of course, you're going to act out. Right. Like most 16 year olds already have it, you know, behavioral issues or we're pushing boundaries or we're trying to figure out where the parents end and we begin and where that independence lies. But then you add sexual assault into it.

Absolutely. And by someone you knew. And then it's just a shit storm at that point. And yeah, so it was a peer that I had known since like seventh grade. This is now 11th grade. And it happened and everything just fell apart. My grades plummeted. My school life suffered. They changed my school schedule around. My teachers had to escort me to and from classes at one point because like I said, they were kind of stalking me and harassing me. And I think honestly, the biggest thing at that point, and I know it sounds so like trivial and trite now, but if you put yourself in a 16 year old's position, it was that everyone knew my business.

Right. My whole high school knew what was going on. And even if they didn't know exactly what was going on, they heard some through the great fine version of the telephone game of what had happened. And so that just I think itself was traumatizing. And so by the time January rolled around, things just got worse. My mom knew all the adults knew. And at that point, I was at school one day and I was standing in line a bunch of girls that I didn't know personally. And they were talking about me and they were talking about the girl that this guy had taken out to the desert and assaulted.

And I was just at that point, I'd hit my wall because these were just strangers, you know. And so I went home and I tried to pack my car because I was going to run away because I was 16 and just trying to escape at that point. Right. And I wanted to go live with my aunt in Washington because I was just done with California as a whole and I didn't want to be around my mom. And I just needed a fresh start, to be honest. I needed safety. I needed stability. I needed comfort and love.

And you didn't tell your mom about it? She found out through other people or you did tell her? I didn't tell my mom about it at first because like, you know, when there's abuse involved, there's a lot of mixed lines. I mean, I remember right after it happened him driving me home and thinking like, well, I like him. So was that bad? Like, I didn't want to do that, but I have a crush on him. So does that make it okay? And so it just, it was a mindfuck from the get go.

Like literally from the night it happened, there was all sorts of questions and really blurred lines. And so I didn't tell my mom because I was at that point, I think trying to protect him and trying to protect myself. Right. And one of my really good childhood friends, Travis, one day the guy was harassing me. Like I said, there was a point where he was harassing me and stalking me and he wouldn't stop. And I knew he was going to come over because he was trying to get a hold of me on like AIM. I probably just dated myself, but he was just repetitive with his attempts. And so I called my best friend at the time, Travis, and I was just like, I need you to come over here.

And he came over instantly and he stayed with me that whole day until my mom came home. And then I'll never forget it. He kissed me on the forehead. He looked at my mom and said, Karen, Rachel has something to tell you. And if she doesn't call me and I'll tell you just because he thought that you needed more help and like nurturing and and at that point, if the guy stalking me, like I adults need to know, right? We need to get like more adult, your adults involved because the shit is escalating. And I think at that point, Travis realized he found out that day.

But I think not only on top of finding that out, he realized how scared I was. And at that point, it was like, OK, if you're not going to tell her, I will. And honestly, I don't know what would have happened had he not. So I'm really grateful. So Travis or anyone for listening, appreciate you. So then fast forward to January of me packing my car or trying to leave my cousin and a bunch of other people were like, you can't run away. This is a thing.

And so when my mom got home from work that night, she sat me down and I basically told her, I just want to go live with my aunt. Susan, can you please just like help me get there? And she this is kind of where all the lack of integrity and the deceit started. She basically told me, OK, if you Psychoval, you're about to get to Psychoval. If you agree to a Psychoval, I will let you go live with your aunt, Susan. And I thought, to be honest, I thought a Psychoval was like an hour sitting on a couch, blowing smoke up some therapist's ass, just telling them what they want to hear. Get out of the hour and start a new life in Washington and be free. So I agreed.

What I didn't know is that a Psychoval is much bigger, much more in depth and much more traumatizing than an hour on a couch with some stranger. Right. I was admitted to UCLA's mental hospital. And I stayed there for 13 days. Just saying that it's just it sucks to even have to say that out loud. But I was there for 13 days. Well, they put me on different medications. They put me in front of different therapists and psychiatrists and different things to really try to, I guess, diagnose and label me.

And while I was there, I believe that the staff told my mom about PCS. That's where she became aware that such a place existed. OK. And at one point, a therapist sat us down and looked my mom dead in the face and said she's 16. She's been through trauma and she hates her mom. Aside from the trauma, everything is normal. And my mom was just, I don't think willing to hear it at that point. She was convinced that there was like bigger issues going on or to be completely honest, I think she wanted bigger issues to be going on.

That way she could then be the victim or the martyr as to what was going on. It was a really twisted situation. You don't think that she ever did it just to be like, I don't want to deal with this? I think that's probably where Utah came into play, yes. But at that point, no. I think she was just trying to draw attention to herself. Yeah, that was a big part of it. But I also think she, yeah, like she really was looking and hoping for some underlying issue.

Right, right, right. And really, if we look back, it was like, well, I was 16. I was sexually assaulted November 7th. And by January, you have me in a mental hospital. We didn't try regular therapy. We didn't try the school guidance counselor. We didn't try anything before it was like you're committed to a mental hospital. I mean, it's less than, we were talking like two months here.

What? Like, that makes absolutely no sense. Sorry, I didn't heal fast enough. Right. Like sorry, I didn't process my trauma fast enough. Right. And so, you know, of course, all of these things come now. At 16, I didn't realize that that's what was happening.

I didn't ask those questions. Always 2020. Of course. So upon being discharged from UCLA, they basically told my mom, this is, you know, this is what it is, send her to Washington and give her that start that she wants. Right. So I came home for a weekend, packed my stuff, said goodbye to my friends, and I moved to Washington to live with my aunt.

I got there, I believe the end of January or beginning of February. Okay. And I was there from February to beginning of March, maybe end of January to beginning March, anywhere from maybe like, I would say five to eight weeks. And honestly, eight weeks even seems like a stretch. Okay. But my memory is really skewed at that point. Of course.

And I, so I moved to Washington. I started over. I made new friends, started a new school, um, and I was trying to, I guess repair what everyone had kind of done in the last six months. Right. Um, unbeknownst to me, they already had a plan in motion should I fail or should something else happen. So when I got to Washington, they sat me down and had me sign a contract and it basically

stated if your GPA reaches, you know, if it goes below a certain number, if, if, you know, if you get in trouble, if you take a car that's not yours, I've had all these stipulations and at the bottom is that if you fail to comply, you will be sent to a boarding school. And I honestly thought, here, let me just sign this. I'm finally in Washington. I'm safe. Like it's fine. Like nothing's going to happen now.

Right. And, um, so I ended up taking a car that wasn't mine. Okay, but you didn't steal. I didn't steal a random person's car. This is your family member's car. Who's a friend of the family? A friend of the family's car and your babysitting. Not like, because I think like Grand Theft Auto, like we're not.

Right. No, I grant. What is it called? Grand Grand Theft Auto. Okay. We're stealing a car. Yeah. Yeah, you're right.

Okay. Yeah, like I'm like, that's not what happened people. No. Okay. So for one, let me preface and say for one before the night of the sexual assault, like I was a virgin. I had no record. I had no nothing.

Um, I maybe didn't have the best grades just cause your girl doesn't really dig all that, but that was pretty much the only thing that there was. Um, and so in Washington, I was babysitting and the kids asked to go to the mall and I was 16 and there was a car and keys. So I took them to the mall and it was not a great choice. And I am completely aware of that. And now that I'm a mother, I'm like, oh my God. Um, but at the time for one, I didn't see the magnitude of my actions.

And two, I didn't know that just because I was breaking a rule in that contract that I would be sent away. Um, you thought, did you think it was like more of like a threat? Absolutely. Of course. You're not thinking like my family. Well, I would, my family send me away. Right.

And like I said, like I said, I've threatened my kids to send them to a boarding school. So it's so hard to have a baby. There's no way that she would then turn around and send you away. Right. Right. At least that was my thinking. Right. So I mean, and again, my grades didn't get too much higher.

They didn't get any worse, but they didn't get any better. But again, I was there for maybe like six to eight weeks. How much turnaround time is a girl going to have in a new school when I'm already getting caught up and it was a mess. Like, yeah, there was no time. There was no rebound. There was nothing. Well, you still are healing from something that happened less than six months ago.

When I lived in Washington, I lost so much weight that I was a double zero. I had black circles under my eyes and I weighed about 72 pounds. So your trauma happened less than six months ago. What do you, what do they want from you at this point? Like I'm still as a mom and knowing everything that I've gone through with sexual assault. Like I can't imagine placing such, um, I guess not restrictions. Like expectations on someone, like if my child were to have gone through that now knowing what I know, no, you're going to, we're, we're going to heal this together.

We're going to get you through this. We're going to take your time. We're going to do whatever we need to do. I'm not going to then turn around and be like, you have to have straight A's because you're still healing from something, right? Like let's get through this. Let's heal and we'll figure out the rest. Right, right.

So when I, um, when I took the car and violated the contract, um, I knew that I was in big trouble for the car. Like I knew that that was going to be a big thing and I didn't get out of bed for like a whole weekend and it was, it was really bad. And I knew that something was coming, but I didn't, I had no idea what I thought. I would just lose like further restrictions or maybe they wait for me to like actually cause I only had a permit guys. I only had a permit at the time.

Oh, so I thought maybe they would say, okay, now you have to wait till you're 18 to get a license or I thought there would be other or they would take away my actual car or like, I don't know. I knew I was in deep shit. I just didn't know what I was in for. I had no idea like the depth of the life changing events that were to come. Right. So shortly thereafter, um, I'll never forget.

I was on the phone with my friend, Mikhail, shout out Britain Mikhail and I was talking to her and I was like, okay, you know, talk to you or like see you tomorrow. We hung up thinking everything will be normal. I'll see you at school tomorrow. I went to bed and next thing I know I'm being woken up in the middle of the night to two strangers standing above my bed, a man and a woman and they're ripping the blankets off me and of course I'm startled and scared and completely unaware of what's happening because I'm half asleep and now there's just strangers staring at me and they basically

told me, you know, get up, get your things. We're here to help you get home. And I remember just telling them like, I don't want to go home. This is where I live now and you're thinking home like California home. Absolutely. And so like back to my mom where we just came from where we don't want to be. So I was like, no, like this is where I live now. And they were like, no, your mom sent us, we're here to help you get home.

And I'm like, my mom knows about this, you know, does my aunt Susan know because that's who I was living with. And they were like, yeah, you know, they all know you need to come with us. And at that point I was thinking, do I have time to run? So I would just ask them, okay, well, can I go to the bathroom first? And they said sure. And there was a little window in the bathroom. So I went into the bathroom and as right as I was just like eyeballing the toilet in the

window, they've both followed me and both the man and the woman followed me into the bathroom to watch me pee. At that point I knew, oh shit, there's no, there's no way I can run. And at that point they basically told me, if you try to run or you fight, we will restrain you and use force and either way you're coming with us like the easy way or the hard way. At this point, it's the middle of the night on a school night, on a school night in what beginning of March in Washington, so it's freezing, like just so many elements. And so I was so unsure of what they were doing.

I remember like listening to them and following them, but also being like, am I supposed to go with these strangers? Like they are telling me that I am, but you know, and my aunt Susan and my uncle weren't in the house because I was kind of looking for them, like, is this real? Are you guys going to let them take me? What's happening? They get me in the car and as we're driving down, you know, the road. You don't even know if you're actually being kidnapped or you're supposed to be with these

people. Right. So that's traumatizing. In and of itself. It was, I mean, if you ask me and any of the fellow survivors, we were kidnapped and held hostage. Of course. If you look up definition, that's exactly what it is.

Granted our parents signed off on it, but we never did. And so as we drove away, I remember looking out the window and seeing my aunt and my uncle hiding in her car parked up the street. And I guess the escorts that worked for Provokinian school told them, you know, she'll cry, she'll scream. It's best if, if you're not here, which is the fact that you can't be there and watch it take place. And it, and it happened in a way where you guys all have a conversation.

It's like, you're going to go away for a little while, like XYZ. That's a red flag. Absolutely. That's a red fucking flag. Absolutely. And it was so, it was like a movie. I remember it was like just like the kid looking out the window, looking at the other kid as they drive away because they're moving or something.

Right. I remember just looking and just watching her hide and thinking, like, you're the one safe person in this whole world. That's why I chose you. That's why I wanted to come here and you're not safe and instead you're, you're a coward. And she herself is the victim of sexual abuse and physical abuse and all sorts of fucked up shit in her childhood. So the fact that she could just, she's also a licensed therapist.

So nobody thought, okay, well, let's just help Rachel get through this with regular therapy with no one. No one offered any other anything. No one, it was never even talked about nothing. There were no options given. They didn't tell my new school that that's why I had transferred there. There was no like guidance counselor. There was no grief counseling.

There was no, they didn't like, it was just like Rachel got sexually assaulted, but that has nothing to do with why she's out of control. Right. But okay. Right. I mean, even, they didn't even like put me on birth control or anything, which if you're like really worried about it, wouldn't you think like, Hey, let's put you on birth control. Let's take all these steps because now this whole can of worms has been open.

Like there was nothing. And I think that's one of the most repulsive parts is that my family went right to this rather than trying everything else. Right. Like even if that was an option that they were considering, you would think that that would be something that would be a last resort. Right. Absolutely.

Last resort, that should be the absolute last resort and the fact that it's even a resort is a problem. Right. But yeah. And I mean, I don't know, I just, it was not justified in my eyes. I wasn't in a gang. I wasn't in and out of juvie. I wasn't harming anyone.

I wasn't on drugs. I mean, someone did something to me and I was already carrying that burden. So I had more. So when you get taken and you're on your way to this place and you get there, what happens? They still wouldn't tell me where I was going. I kept asking repeatedly and they wouldn't. They just kept insisting that they kept telling me, you will never see us again. You don't actually work for where you're going where we just were a third party.

You will never see our faces again. That's horrifying. Terrifying. Terrifying. And it wasn't until like we were pulling up to the airport that I'm like, oh shit, they're taking me over state lines. And at that point I still thought it was California. Oh, you're in the air.

You're going to the airport. Yeah. We drove to the airport. And so when we got to the airport, I literally thought, okay, we're going to California. Okay, I'll get there. I'll run away. I'll make it back up here. I'll make it work.

And it wasn't until we were at the gate that I saw the gate was going to Salt Lake City. And I realized, oh shit, they're taking me to Utah. And to shed some light and kind of back step, when I was in UCLA, a girl who was my closest friend there in the 13 days, she disappeared in the middle of the night one night. And another girl in the morning at breakfast when I'm asking like, hey, where's Meredith? Where is she? Another girl said, oh, she probably went to Utah because I guess she, that girl had seen a few people disappear in the middle of the night.

And so that is fucking terrifying. Absolutely. And so I was asking the escorts or transporters, you know, am I going to Utah? Do you guys know a girl named Meredith? And all this stuff. And they were like, we know absolutely nothing. We're a third party. You'll never see us again.

You'll have to find out once you get there. So we flew to Salt Lake City and then I was greeted by new escorts who then received me and then took me to the quote unquote school. At that point, everything changed. I went from bad to worse to worse to unimaginable within an instant. I upon getting to PCS, I was stripped naked in front of multiple staff members. I was probed. I was forced to bend over and cough.

I mean, anything you could, and you haven't done. I mean, aside from taking the car, you haven't really done. What kid hasn't taken a car for a joy ride? I just need to know that a license before I got my license for at least a year and nobody knew. Right. I had a goddamn permit. I don't even know if I had that and my friends were letting me drive their cars without them

even. You know what I'm saying? Like as fucked up as it is thinking back, like, wow, that's really fucking dangerous and I'd be pissed if one of my kids did it. It's like we all drove without a license. My mom still tells stories about like sneaking out and like doing teenage things. Hmm. Can't relate.

I mean, how many people drink without being 21? Right. I mean, you know what I mean? Like I'm not trying to justify it, but I'm also trying to empathize with the fact that you were probably acting out because of the things that happened to you. And the punishment didn't fit the crime. No, absolutely not. It really didn't.

It's like, okay, maybe we put her in therapy, you know, maybe a scared straight weekend. Like I don't know. Or even just like punishment, but a different, like nothing that is going to then change my life or change my views of myself or my relationship with my mom or any of those big hitting things that were really affected. Right. I don't know. Wait till I'm 18 to get my license.

Take my car away. Like actual things that would help you. You know, the normal stuff parents do. Yeah. Yeah. And so, um, so you're, you're stripped down naked in front of all these people and you're probably feeling so vulnerable and so betrayed and so, and I just remember being so confused because these people kept telling me they were trying to help me get home.

How does this someplace in a completely different state help me get home? I had no idea that it was like some supposed program that I was then going to like enter or need to then graduate in order to get home. Like they didn't say any of that. So I was still so confused as to why I'm naked in front of strangers being probed if you guys are trying to help me get home. Like I don't live in Utah. I've never lived in Utah and why am I naked, what, you know, so they took all my belongings.

They gave me sweats and sweatpants, no bra, no underwear, nothing, um, and they were the same color. Kind of like jail. Yep. Absolutely. Not kind of like jail. It was exactly like jail. It was a level 14 lockdown.

Um, you need keys to get in and out of the building. And if it was on fire, you couldn't get out. Absolutely not. I mean, I'm sure they had some sort of like emergency thing in play, but we never did drills or anything. So I don't even know what that would look like to be completely honest. So they give you a number. They took away my name, gave me a number.

Just like prison. Absolutely. Um, and then I was isolated, given a handbook and basically the abuse started day one and we were told when to speak, when to use the restroom, how to sit, where to look, how to, how to be. You can't look out the windows. There's no looking out the windows. There's no, when another kid is being dialed nine, do you can't look that way?

You have to face the wall. What is dial nine? So when they're about to, if in their eyes, a child is being unruly or out of control or there's some sort of explosive moment going on, a staff member would reach for their walkie, call for a dial nine, and that means any available staff needs to all come to wherever the dial nine is. And I usually are then pinning the child down to try to restrain them. Depending on the severity or the craziness of the moment, they are sometimes even their

pants were pulled down and they're given like a shot in their butt of different drugs that will then drug them. And then they are taken to a place called OBS, which was, that was the place that Parrish shed light on in the documentary. And then their isolation and their punishment really begins. I think just while you're saying all of this, and I'm thinking of all of the things that I've watched on TV about, um, like girls incarcerated, I think is something I watched on Netflix and stuff like that.

I don't know that they ever talk about how forceful they are, um, and how unnecessary it is to do some of the things that they do, um, excessive force would be like the exact statement because there's no reason to do any of what they did at all, especially not in front of all of us. That was like a humiliation tactic as well. It was kind of like, well, if this, if this can happen to them, if you're not good, this will also happen to you. So here's my thing, um, you know, we all know somebody or are struggling with mental illnesses

ourselves, um, places like this are going to make those things worse. Absolutely. They're not going to improve anyone's behavior or coping. And if you're drugged immediately upon entering this program, I mean, Parrish says in the documentary that as soon as you get there, you stand in line to get your pills every single day, and if you get caught trying to hide them or throw them away, you get punished. Absolutely. And that's, that's true.

You go to the nurse's station, you stand in line, and if you cheek your meds, you will be punished. And then so instead you would have to like open your mouth and do like that, uh, uh, uh, under the top and the cheeks, right, everything and make sure that it's swallowed. And that's absolutely true. So you're being drugged. You don't even know what's, what you're even taking, or if you even need it, then you're tired and you're walking around like a fucking zombie.

Absolutely. And then forced to stay awake because you're not allowed to go take a nap. No. Um, and then I don't know, expected to act like a normal fucking human being. Right. And then you think that this is going to rehabilitate me and get me to be a better member of society when I get out of here. How am I going to leave better than I came when you're breaking me down even further?

Nonetheless, I'm a child, so I'm still developing. So these are my formative years. What are, what are we doing? We're okay. Okay. So, so it was, so one, you're there for a long time before you're ever allowed access to your parents, whether that's being able to write them letters or call them or get a visit.

It's weeks, months before anyone has contact. Right. Um, and again, that's another like control strategy type aspect. Um, and it was a while before my mom first came for a visit and stuff, but, um, you, I don't know, there's no, there's no like adjustment or like learning curve. It's just like you quickly see what's happening and you're always like, so I remember every new person is like confused or we think, oh, we don't have to sit just like that. Or, oh, do I, do I really have to ask before I go pee, things like that, but you quickly

learn like, yes, you have to do all of those things. And even the staff would say like fake it till you make it, depending on like if it was a good staff or a bad staff. And you kind of learned and like some people made it harder on themselves. Some people faked it till they made it. Um, but it's kind of like jail. Like you either figure out how it goes or you make your life harder. And there is no, like I said, there's no learning curve.

No one explains why you're doing what you're doing or what the reason is. It's just a lot of like expectations and you don't even really know how to. Yeah. It's kind of like animals just being led to slaughter. Like they have no idea what's coming. They're just like going with the person leading them. And there are good staff and then there are staff who are truly abusing what they're supposed to be doing and absolutely and sexually assaulting the kids that are in this quote unquote school.

Absolutely. So not only being there, did we face isolation from our family and our peers? We also faced neglect, um, abuse. And I mean by neglect, I mean girls would go days without water. Like their lips would be peeling off their face, bleeding, like neglect, like in ways that are inhumane. And we also, we endured physical abuse. We also witnessed a lot of physical abuse.

There was also a lot of sexual abuse, um, anything from inappropriate relations between staff and kids to rape, sodomy, anything you can think of. Um, and did the other staff just kind of turn their face or like, what are the, I would say it's ignorance is bliss for one. And two, I think the staff that were good didn't necessarily know that this is what was going on because their minds didn't even go there because they were good people. Right. Um, but I would say they were, the good were few and far between and majority of the staff

abused their power. And kind of like Paris said, a lot of the staff got on, uh, got off on seeing us being treated less than or hurting us or seeing us naked or really pushing those boundaries. And a lot of staff made things worse just by their, their actions. And I mean, if you already are there because you've been sexually assaulted or you were molested by your dad or something like that, and then to then have who's supposed to be safe and this caretaker that you know, you're with and you're, you're locked in a building with for months and years on end, that's not helping anybody.

And so there was just, I mean, the examples are crazy. Anything from starvation, dehydration, isolation, sleep deprivation, being drugged, rape, sodomy, being dragged out of your bed, having your hair cut, having your hair shaved, being, being refused certain things. Like there are girls that weren't ever given like tampons and would just, that's crazy that you said that because I was going to ask like if, if they have had their beds taken away and they have to sleep on another unit. Yeah.

What does that look like? Like, so I remember the first month people just saying like, Oh, you'll lose your bed. You'll lose your bed. And I remember just thinking, well, where am I going to sleep? Like, are they going to make me sleep on the floor? Like, what does that mean? And what it really meant was you're going to lose the bed on the unit that you're on or the status that you've made within your program.

And you were going to go to a unit called investment and long-term investment. And that is basically, you lose your bed on the privileged units, which these privileges are not privileges. Right. They're still in human conditions, but you go even less than and you are really then bottom of the fucking barrel. And then they have even less tolerance for you on that unit because in their eyes, your, the bad seed, you're, you know, you deserve to be there, all those things.

And so when you lose your bed, you are stripped of even more of some of those, I guess, privileges. I don't want to call them privileges. Exactly. Like it's not a privilege, but you lose even more of, of that when your bed is taken away or when you lose your status or when you get in trouble like that. Like I'm talking some girls that had like run plans and stuff, they would be given days and that means so many days inside. So if they had run plans and then they were given a hundred days, they couldn't go outside

for a hundred days. And now when I say outside, now when I say outside, let me just specify, we never had like fresh air room to run like outside. We had a courtyard that was fenced in like prison. Absolutely. So we can just run in circles around this courtyard. But then the people with days couldn't go out there, couldn't even go to the courtyard and the staff would punish the people with days with more days.

So say you have run plans and they give you a hundred days and then you get in trouble, you get in trouble. They're just going to keep giving you days to where there's, you're never going to go see the sun. No, no. And then a lot, it's kind of like, you know, the people will say like, once you're in jail, it's very easy to go back to jail. Right.

Once you've been on investment or lost your bed, it's very easy to then stay in trouble while you're there. It's very difficult to then get off investment and restake your claim on some other unit or get back to those statuses. There's just so much. There's so much. So I remember we had a conversation where it was like, okay, you could be so hungry, eat all your food, but you're never allowed, you're pretty much never allowed to get more

food. Never. Seconds aren't a thing. You're not, okay, but teenage kids eat a lot, like they eat a lot. They're hungry. They're growing. I mean, even look at our boys. We're graying.

Lincoln is six years old and could eat more than me. So it's like, imagine like a teenage kid. But then if you are not hungry, you could get in trouble if you don't eat. So if I was really famished that day, like maybe I just, you know, just woke up really hungry or am I my period and I just want to like eat, you know, ravage all the things. You can't have seconds. And if you don't finish your food. So say there was a day that I was just really crampy and not that hungry, and it was a different

period day, it would be like, oh, you didn't eat enough, so now you're going to be on Trey Watch. And then it's an eating disorder, and it becomes this whole thing. And I mean, there were kids even force fed with feeding tubes. Just because they weren't, right. And half the meds that they put us on were appetite suppressants. So then how can you tell us that we need to finish our food, or we need to eat more when you're pumping us full of drugs, they're killing our appetite?

We would also have to show our silverware before we could clear our place to show that we're not taking a knife, spoon, or fork with us to our units. I'm sure that there are people and kids that need to be in places that really are safe for them and their mental health, like if there are serious issues. Absolutely. But I don't think that what you're describing to me makes sense for most of the people that go there. Well, no, and every kid, not most, but every kid there, whether they were on the girls

campus or boys' campus, they need to fucking love. I mean, I'm just sitting here thinking about my own children, and sometimes I get frustrated. We all do as parents with, you know, our kids' behavior sometimes. I can't imagine sending my child somewhere away from me where I can't help guide them back to where they need to be, right? Like not knowing what's going on, especially in the world that we live in. So we were fundamentally failed by our caretakers, whether that was our parents or the state, whoever was the guardian of said minor.

We, I totally just lost my thought. You were failed by... Thank you. Well, not only were we sent away and punished for things that we needed help with, majority of our parents, and when I say majority, I mean like 90% of the parents never even toward the facility. These parents never went to Utah themselves and did the research, met with these people. They all just took other people's word for it, and a lot of people, their parents, like

a lot of survivors, their parents were referred by UCLA or by other facilities. So you can't tell me that there's not like money being made off. I told you this before. It's the school to prison pipeline, but it's like, you know, when you're in prison, your chances of going back to prison are a lot higher. Well, when you're a teenager and you're in a school like this, that's actually a prison. It's a, what did you call it, a level 14 lockdown? That's teenagers in prison.

So where do you think that these people are going to end up when they come out? They're going to end up in fucking prison because now that they've already gone through trauma before going there, they're there, they're institutionalized and then further abused or neglected or starved or whatever the case may be. And then they're going to turn around, get out, act out again because they don't know how to handle all of this shit. And there's no, there's no part of the program set up to ease the transition. It goes from all of this to, well, you leave, go back to society.

And there's, I mean, for the first year of being out, I was still asking and raising my hand to go pee or take a shit. Like it, there was no way to like ease into being a productive member of society. They're just, that wasn't part of the plan ever. Which is actually crazy, especially for these kids because those are, those are the years where, okay, now I'm graduating what's supposed to be high school, so I should be trying to go to college or a trade school or, or whatever that looks like, but then there's absolutely no resources.

They have no idea what the fuck they're supposed to be doing. No, none. And, and we don't even know how to like socially interact because we can't even just talk freely to our peers while we're at the place. So everything was a learning curve upon leaving, but like there, the, the neglect and the abuse really started when our caretakers didn't do any research. Like every parent knows and, you know, kind of instills in their child from day one, like don't talk to strangers, don't go with strangers, stranger danger.

Right. And, and here our parents are just sending us to not only live with strangers, but like strangers that haven't even proven to be trusted. And these, these, it's not for just like an hour grocery run. It's months and years at a time. And I just, I mean, I've done more research on dog rumors. Like as a parent myself now, I look back and I'm just absolutely disgusted with the lack of protection, the lack of research, the lack of education.

I look at reviews before I buy most shit. Right. Right. And I can return that stuff. And you can't, you can't give, your mom can't give that year of your life back to you to redo so that she doesn't send you there. So that, you know what I mean? Like she can't take that back.

No. So the fact that she didn't tour it and then she trusted strangers to, I mean, I don't know any parent who's going to like let their kids sleep over at their friend's house if they don't know the parents. Right. Do you know what I mean? Absolutely. Let alone send them to it.

States away where you then can't access them. No. And the facility is telling the parents, oh, you won't have access to them until they're this far along in their program. And even, I don't know your mom. I only know you, but like looking, thinking about, thinking about how Paris's mom reacted in the documentary is kind of similar to how I would picture your mom reacting. Yeah.

I just like absolutely like nothing there doesn't understand the magnitude of what you put me through type of situation. And then like Paris's mom was like, oh, she never told me that. And it's just like, well, what did you think? Where did you think you were sending me without touring it? For one, if at any point during our stay there, we were trying to tell our parents about the abuse or the neglect and we were trying to explain why we so desperately wanted out. For one, our mail was read before it went out and before it like when it came in before

we got it. So there was always hands and everything. Our phone calls were recorded. Our therapy sessions weren't safe because our parents were involved. I mean, there was really nothing that was ours. There was no self like sense of autonomy or privacy or any of those things. And I think that even if we told them and we had a moment to say, hey, I was sodomized in the utility closet or hey, I was, I was, which happened, which happened, really a real

occurrence or hey, I was choked and I had a knee on my chest while they tried to shove pills down my throat. Every time I'd open my mouth to gasp for air again, another real event. I think had we had the ability to get those moments with our parents, I truly don't believe our parents would have come for us or believed us. I do know a few parents did that once they finally had a moment with our child and their top child was able to divulge exactly what was going on. A few parents stepped in and were like, okay, this is not a thing.

But for the most part, we were already labeled as like crazy, out of control, unruly, wayward teens and all this. And it didn't help that the program and the staff and all that knew that they prey on parents just like Karen. It's a business and they, there's a reason that their teen, the troubled teen industry is so profitable and there's a reason that it still exists. And because there's money to be made. And so they would intervene and basically say, oh, she's manipulating.

We got to end the phone call. She's manipulating. And then I would be punished. So I think that had for one, a lot of my trauma and my abuse, I didn't, I don't know. I didn't realize that that's what was happening and I saw so many girls get worse treatment that I guess in my mind, mine wasn't that bad. And I witnessed more than I experienced, but that itself was like living in a war zone. If you love TV, but you hate the size of your cable bill, Philo is your solution.

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You talked about being woken up in the middle of the night to go get random pap smears. So that was the segue into the sexual abuse. So there was a lot of abuse, but the sexual abuse, I really had no awareness of it until just earlier this year. And I was there from 2003 to 2004. So it's been a decade and then some repressed memory. Absolutely. So what I know and I have pieces of are being woken up in the middle of the night taken to

a really bright hallway. I just remember there being like two or three chairs and just like blinding lights. And you know, when you go from like dead sleep to like any light, they're all blinding. And of course we can't talk. We can't ask why we're there. We can't ask the person next to us what they just had done. There's nothing. So there were, I believe three different times.

I know for sure that it happened, but I'm not sure if more, if it happened more, but I would be woken up in the middle of the night, I scored it to that bright hallway and then I would be called in by nurse practitioner, Kathy Black. And I would have various like vaginal examinations performed whether it was with in one year. You were there for one year. I was there for 13 months and I had pap smears and different examinations at least three times. But you're not sexually active while you're there.

No. And you had no reason to do that. My first pap ever was the day after I got to Utah, they woke me up in the middle of the night and I remember, and like we're early morning, and I told her, I said, I'm a virgin and they were like, we, you know, we don't care. And I remember telling her like, this is my first pap, like this is a big deal. And she was just like, didn't care, didn't believe, didn't believe that I was a virgin. But this is a behavioral place.

This is not a place where you need to, like, I don't, right, help me make it make sense. It doesn't. Um, okay. We go in a normal situation and normal every day life. We go to the colleges like once a year, an annual exam. If something comes back abnormal, you go twice a year, right a year, right? The fact that you remember in 13 months, you remember at least three times. If not more is an issue.

Yeah. Absolutely. And I, again, I didn't think of it at the time. Of course not. Because at the time you have no idea what the fuck is going on. And the, yeah, we didn't know our asses from a hole in the ground and, and I think one of them weird, I think one of the weirdest things about it is how they do it. Like why are we in the middle of the night?

Like when, when I live there a year round, 365, like there's not another time and place. Like it's, it's again, it's a control thing. It's a, it's a submissive thing. Cause if we can get you while you're vulnerable and asleep, just like when the escorts come like they're, you know, and it's very hush, then the other kids on that unit don't know what's happening. So I think the creepiest part was that I would be waking up in my, woken up in my sleep, taken to have these procedures and exams done, and then I would be put back to sleep.

They would take me back to my bed and I would be expected to go back to sleep and then wake up with the rest of the unit. Like nothing had happened. And because that way they could say that it never happened. Absolutely. That never happened. Right. That never happened.

Right. You, you're dreaming. You're crazy. Right. And I think that part of the reason they do that is to really disorient us, like just like there's, you know, no clocks in a casino kind of thing. That way you just get lost playing the slots and you just give more money, more money. Right.

You don't really know what's what. And at that point, like you're tired, you're sleep deprived and like you said, we're not allowed to sleep. We can't fall asleep. We, in fact, you'd be severely punished even if you rested your head because that means it's run plans. Automatically that means you're going to run away tonight. That brought me to another point that we talked about after the documentary was, um, so these

places have girls and boys that are different ages, but they are not truly educated in a way that they should be because a teacher can't teach five different age groups in the same classroom. What they need to be taught. Right. So like education was pretty much a joke. So if there's like a 10 year old in there and a 17 year old and we're in economics or math, what about math, right?

Like what are they taking from that? Nothing. So where exactly in this program is the rehabilitation? Like where is it? I don't believe there's any because in the school area, there's none. So the rehabilitation as far from, from what you tell me and what I know about you is like, okay, you're, you're doing chores and cleaning. You can potentially do laundry.

You're going to sit in a classroom where you're not truly learning and you couldn't even get, if you were to leave there and go back to a regular school, you wouldn't even be able to keep your GPA where it needed to be because you'd be so fucking far behind. Absolutely. So like where is the rehabilitation? And we go to school all year round. So how is there such a disconnect when we don't get the three months off in the summer? We don't get a Christmas break.

We don't, the only time we are off is Saturday, Sunday. That's it. And even then we're deep cleaning units because there's no janitorial, you know, employees. There's, you know, we're doing all of this slave labor for free and we're minors. And then that's illegal. What? Um, and, but not even learning anything that could help you to get into college, to get into community college, to get into a trade school, to do any of those things.

Like high schools now have like pathways that you get to pick to like kind of gear yourself up to go to do whatever you want to do in trade school or college or whatever. There was no talk of college or the future. It was. So where's the rehabilitation? I had. And then Paris's parents, your parent, your, your mom and other people's mom, I mean, come on now.

Right. Like you don't think about bigger picture here. It's like, oh, let's solve the problem right now. But we don't know exactly how this is going to solve the problem, but we're going to send you there anyway. My knee jerk response when you said, where is the rehabilitation rehabilitation? It's, it's, it's nowhere because I would say it's like, it's with the parents, but it's not the parents aren't doing any work on their end.

They're not changing. They're not learning. No, they handed the reins to somebody else, but they get the break. They get to disengage. No, because no, no, no, no, I'm not saying it's right. No, I know. I'm just thinking about, okay, well, I'm, I don't want to deal with this, right? Like if I'm thinking of one of my kids and they're acting out, oh, I don't want to deal

with this. I'm going to send them away. No, because that would eat me alive knowing that this could cause more damage than good. And then you can't take it back. But most of these parents didn't necessarily know that that's what it is. In fact, most of these parents just, but if you don't know what it is, then they shouldn't be going there. Absolutely.

And I agree with you. But even like Kathy Hilton and, you know, my mom and people like that, like in their mind, they're doing the best they could. What other options? I don't believe that. Which we've already talked about. I don't believe that. You didn't try any other options.

But in their mind, oh, I can sleep safe because I know where she's laying her head at night. No. What you don't know is that so-and-so is being sodomized in a utility closet. What you don't know is that so-and-so is being starved. What you don't know is that we're being physically beat. What you don't know is that kids try to run away and they die, period. So as much as parents try to tell themselves, oh, I'm sleeping better at night. I'm there safe.

I know what they're doing. No, they really don't and they're not safe. No one's safe in those schools. Schools. Schools. Air quotes. Big air quotes, guys. Big air quotes.

Okay. So Rachel is a part of a Facebook group that is survivors of PCS. So she did ask if there was anyone that wanted their story to be told or, you know, would be comfortable with that. And so two people, well, multiple people reached out, but you did have a story that you wanted to share. I did. So I, like I said, there's so much to be said, even more than what we've talked about.

There's even more. Yeah, you guys, there's really, it's, it's crazy how much depth there is and how many different stories and how many levels of abuse and neglect there really was. What? So they talk about how they change hands every three years, they sell it every three years, the staff is new all the time. So that they, the statute of limitations is two years. Yeah.

So the statute of limitation is two years, which is a joke because like I said, most of us are still trying to just reenter society those first two years. We, I mean, with my suppressed memories, they didn't come up till just this year. What was I supposed to do with those first two years? And because they know what that program really is, like the people that run it, they constantly are changing hands and selling it every few years. That way they can say like, Oh, I, I can't speak on when so-and-so owned it because I've only been here since this time.

And there was so-and-so no longer works here because we changed owners last year. Lots of turnover, lots of changing of hands. And so there's never any type of like breadcrumbs or accountability because of all those things. And even now with all the press and everything and everything coming to light with this is Paris, PCS was contacted by, because it's still open, PCS was contacted by several media platforms and they basically said, Oh, we, we can't speak on anything that happened during Miss Hilton's stay because we sold, you know, it was sold and bought out in 2000. They started the other, but me and all of the people I attended PCS with and all of

the survivors in our group can speak before, during and after Paris Hilton's stay. So I was there 2003 to 2004, okay, let's talk. Who owned it then? Cause I mean- You have similar stories that Paris had and what she went and what year? I want to say like 98 to 99 or 97 to 98 right around then. Okay. So you went shortly thereafter.

I mean, it wasn't very long. It wasn't too long after, but long enough that they had switched ownership and things had changed. Okay. So like I said, I reached out and a lot of people were, honestly, I'm so proud of this group. Like we've carried this shame and guilt for so many years, but we are finding our voice and we are, we are standing in our truth.

And even though it's terrifying, we are adamant on shedding light and making waves and getting these stories out there because it is something that needs to be changed, eliminated and rethought. I'm not saying that there shouldn't be programs to help rehabilitate kids, but truly help rehabilitate like PCS was not that and many of the programs in this industry are not that. So what I have is a little bit of a story, a little tidbit from a fellow survivor from PCS. Her name is Elisa and she was there from 1998, 1999, and her number was 325. She kind of had a stereotypical troubled teen background.

So she was dating older guys, running away, experimenting with drugs, and what she really need was, you know, structure and love and comfort, but her mom couldn't be bothered. She was actually there at the same time as Paris Hilton and like overlapped. Yeah, they overlapped. And she too was taken by transporters and abused by her therapist, which all of our therapy situations, like they were not safe. Like you should never be punished for your thoughts and feelings and we were and it wasn't therapy.

She was abandoned by her mom. Her mom refused to talk to her on the phone or visit her. But aside from her mom where it really got crazy is what was happening behind the locked doors. So for one, she, her therapist was constantly abusing her and physically verbally and mentally abusing her based on her issues or things that she had experienced. And this was really interesting to me. She was put on a coin flip program and she had to relinquish control to the flip of a

daily coin flip that determined whether she'd be able to speak, choose her own clothing, et cetera. So every day she would have to flip a coin to see whether she had control over her decisions or not. And that is not abnormal. There were girls on no, no talk standing orders to where they could not speak. There were all sorts of great, there were people with like the had to wear gloves, like they were crazy.

So what about the people who actually have mental illnesses that, that wouldn't be able to do those things? They would be punished for them being mentally ill. Absolutely. And they would, most of those people spent majority of their time on investment or the or the people who were mentally ill that actually had that needed help. Oh yeah. Or they never moved up in their, in their program and made it to the next statuses because

it's not what it's built to do. She also this, she had several programs thrown her way, which are just like mind blowing to me. This one, she also had what is called the box program. She had to carry a heavy box with her everywhere, which was supposed to symbolize her issues. This wasn't a small box. It was a huge 42 inch TV box before TVs were flat. They'd fill it with two liter soda bottles and it got up to 30 pounds at one point.

She had to take it everywhere, including PE and running laps. So she had to run carrying this. I mean, if you already have issues, you really need to pile on more, like let alone what like that's what I mean. These standing orders and these programs are crazy. Like what are we actually learning? What are we actually taking away from that? She then went on to have back problems as an adult and she, she was also involved in

attack therapy where I too was a part of this and witnessed this. They would put one girl in the middle of a circle and we all would have to like pick her apart and tell her like her weaknesses or her strengths or like it was terrible. She graduated from high school and when she left PCS, she graduated high school and life got much worse. She has PTSD, anxiety and a major inability to assimilate into society. She started using drugs and everything in the world overwhelmed her with having all those choices, all that freedom.

So she kind of had to start healing all over again and really start from zero as soon as she left. And I think that a lot of different people have similar stories, but each one has their own like personal twist, but hers really stood out to me because if we're learning self control and impulse control and we're learning like mental fortitude and emotional maturity and we're supposed to be learning all these things, how does a coin flip help her? How does one day having control and one day not, how does carrying a box around, instead you're just humiliating her and making her life that much harder and it's just, it's

not anything that she's now like, oh, I'm so glad I carried that 30 pound box around because now I am relieved of all my issues. No, now she has back problems. I think there's a lot to be said about a lot of the people that, um, that you've told me about or, or just listening to the parasol and documentary. One year doesn't, doesn't sound like a huge deal, right? Like to the rest of us. Cause we're like, oh, it's just, just 16 to 17, oh, just 15 to 16 or oh, just 18.

You know what I mean? Like you think of one year and you're like, oh, just that, just one year. It's not that bad. But when you really think about the time in your life where you need all of those things, like you're going through so much and it's, it's a transition period where you're like not yet an adult, but like kind of getting there and you're already, like you said, like we've said a hundred times on this, you know, you're already having issues. That one year is so crucial.

Absolutely. And to be honest, like, it's like you're being brainwashed. You're not just being brainwashed from, oh, we're being groomed completely for, for example, some girls are there for more than a year. That's exactly what I was going to say. So as much as you can say, oh, a year, some of these girls come in at 12 and don't leave till they're 18 if they're awarded the state. Some of these girls who are in and out of trouble, who run away, who do all these things, their

program is three years because they don't, they don't graduate or people that parents are like, no, they're not coming home till they're 18. They have to age out of the system. Like I was there for 13 months, but I know people that were there for years. But even cause I think another part of like my opinion on the whole Paris Hilton thing was just that I feel like she, I wish that she would have went more in depth about it because yeah, she was only there for 11 months, but those 11 months, you, it, that short period of time can undo everything before then.

Absolutely. And, and, and basically reteach you an improper and unhealthy way to cope with things and to handle things and develop new things and, and habits and, and all of those things, you know what I'm saying? Absolutely. So I, I just wish that they're, they talked more about that and I just, I don't know. I'm, I'm proud of you guys for having that group because I feel like while it still hurts and you're still recovering from all of that, like you have, you do have each other.

So that, that's the one thing in all of this, it's like in my everyday life, I can't relate to anyone and no one can relate to me because even if I tell them, even if they know details like you and I've been, you know, open and vulnerable with them, they can't truly grasp the magnitude of what I've been through, but the fellow survivors, the fellow students, they can. And so when it feels like no one understands or impossible to communicate in an adequate disc, like descriptive manner, these people lived it. They know, I don't, I don't have to paint that picture because they know exactly what

I mean. So that has been absolutely amazing and a crucial part of, I feel like all of our healing is the fact that we, we aren't alone and that even if we never get those apologies or we never get those relationships repaired, we know that we matter to each other. Right. And that's like a big thing. Cause like you said, it was a year, but that year can undo all of the healthy things that you have.

It cost me cost you your entire future. Absolutely. It affects all of my interpersonal relationships, my self-worth, my, the way I think about things, the way I react to things, what I have PTSD to, like, like what I react to, what are triggers, it affects the way I mother, it affects being a mom, it affects being a productive member of society. It affects all of my intimate relationships. And like that night in November of 2002 was already going to do all that.

I didn't need more. More punishment and more. And instead, all it did was that one year it ruined the rest of the years. And I, I know that our parents look back and they're like, but we did the best we could or, but I don't, I don't buy it. I don't either, but I think that they are so ridden with guilt and shame. They can't even bring themselves to the fact that like, wow, I fucked up and I like neglected my child and I failed them and maybe this is why they look at me that way.

And I think for a lot of survivors, it was hard enough being taken from our families and being kept away. So when we got home, they wanted to be a part of their family. So even if it meant not talking about it or sweeping it under the rug, they, they wanted their family to welcome them back with open arms. Whereas there's a lot of people like myself who could give two fucks. Now you resent them. Absolutely.

Absolutely. All those adults that were supposed to be safe, weren't safe, aren't safe, still aren't safe. They have no integrity. I don't trust them. I don't trust most people. And if anything, my mom doing quote unquote, the best she could cost her, her daughter and her grandson.

Yeah. I have no relationship with my aunt Susan. I, I, yeah, I mean, now that you think, now that you say that it's, it's kind of like the, all the kids that go there would be excited to go home back to their families and stuff. But I think I would hold on to the resentment. Like you don't even know what you just did. Exactly. You don't even, and now I don't even know.

I don't, I don't, I would be where you're at. Right. And like, and like you and I have talked about, like it's kind of like reminiscent of like Stockholm syndrome to where like, we're supposed to love our captors, our parents are, you know, paying for our abuse, our, our parents are paying to keep us locked in a building. Our parents are paying or the state is paying and the parents are agreeing to, even if they're not financially supporting it, they're the guardians. They've signed these paperwork.

They've ultimately let this happen. But really they're hurting us, but then we're expected to like go home to them. Like it doesn't make any sense. Like we would be groomed to earn visits and earn privileges to be able to have visits with those families. The families would then see us and even if we got off grounds visits and got to leave, our parents would then take us back. So like what kind of twisted thing is that to where like I'm counting down the days till

my mom comes. She's the reason I'm here. We go get some pedicures and then she's going to take me back. And then I just got to count down to the next visit. Like that is some twisted shit. And then it all of a sudden the trauma, the abuse, the love. It's all one. It's all one.

And at that point, how do you make up from down, back from front, there's, there's, you can't, there's no way. Not especially not at the age because no, we, no, our brains are literally forming. Like our emotional intelligence is forming. Like all these, like our bodies aren't even physically done growing and we have grown men on our chests, on our necks. We have, you know, I mean, I don't know. There's just, there's, there's so much to be said about looking for help or looking

for relief from the parents aspect to really like what we were getting and what that brings about full circle because really I want to say like the statistic was like 80%. Like it was like 80% of like if you were there, you were more than likely to end up in jail or prison. And most of those people then went on to have some sort of something, whether they then went on to use or they became like sexually promiscuous or they had interpersonal issues or they never took meds again and maybe they needed those meds, things like that, you know, or never look back on therapy.

Like for me, I, I was completely against therapy from the moment I left up until earlier this year. And even when my marriage was falling apart, I was adamant about not going to therapy. I absolutely refused. People now come to find out what therapy actually is and all the, all the growth and healing that can be done in a safe space. Like I mean, it's just, it's crazy. It's another world.

It's another life. And unless you were behind those doors and given a number, you can't understand it. You can't. And there is something to be said about the breaking code silence movement and what we're trying to do because we are really trying to raise awareness, raise awareness, but save these kids because no one ever saved us. Yeah. So the hashtag is breaking code silence.

Okay. And people can find that on Instagram, Facebook, Twitter. Yes. Okay. Or they could go directly to breaking code silence website as well. Oh, I didn't know there was a website. Yeah. Okay.

And there are videos to watch and there's so much education to be had on the topic because like I said, these, these places, they do prey on troubled teens. They prey on weak parents. They prey on private funded people. And so it's, it's definitely a monster. It's not just neglectful parents. It's not just wayward teens. It's not just abuse of power.

It's all of it under one roof. Right. So the website is breaking code silence.com. I believe so. All right. If not, definitely start with the hashtag. Okay. Okay.

Well, thank you for sharing your story. And I really appreciate you obviously being here cause we're best friends, but just being a part of it and, and willing to share your story on our podcast. So if you guys have not seen the documentary, it's this is Paris on YouTube, Rachel, was it? Yes. It's on Paris Hilton's channel on YouTube. Go watch it and we'll see you next week.