Comedy of the Week - Geoff Norcott's Working Men's Club

Episode Date: July 29, 2024

Geoff Norcott examines modern masculinity in this stand-up series for Radio 4, by creating the safe space of a working men’s club so he can speak freely about the problems men are facing and how we might go about fixing them in a way that benefits everyone.This week, Geoff looks at men’s reluctance to put on sunscreen. Why not take a simple, basic precaution against the hottest and largest thing in the entire solar system? Vanity? Bravado? Or something else? With the help of his studio audience, Geoff looks at whether this is connected to men’s reluctance to seek medical advice and their habit of dying early.Written and presented by Geoff NorcottRecorded by Richard BiddulphProduction manager: Sarah Wright Executive producer: Caroline Raphael Producer: Ed MorrishA Pier production for BBC Radio 4

BBC Sounds music radio podcasts. Hello, Jeff Norcott here. This program is my working man's club. You know, it's sort of like a safe space to talk about the issues facing modern men. Just a quick disclaimer, this is a metaphorical working man's club. Though we do have lots of men, plenty of lager and we've got a jukebox which only plays tracks by Meatloaf and Queen. Just heads up, this is going to be a comedy show, but occasionally we'll be talking about important stuff,

up to and including feelings. So if you are uncomfortable, we have earplugs that are playing the TMS commentary of Headin' the 81. This is the place to discuss proper bloke stuff. But Jeff, isn't that the entire podcast landscape? Yes, there are lots of men talking for many hours in the podcasting world, but what are they really saying? Podcasts have taught us that if an infinite number

of male monkeys were given an infinite number of typewriters, they wouldn't create Shakespeare. One would write about the importance of protein shakes and crypto, while the others would laugh hysterically at knob gags. I also accept that in 2024 the phrase proper bloke could seem exclusionary, but let me just answer a few questions. Does our work in men's club exclude posh blokes? No. Does it exclude gay blokes? No. Does it exclude blokes who ride unicycles but aren't in the circus? Yes. Because you have to have standards. This working men's club is a place where we

can explore the actual experience of being male. How often do you hear it articulated? What does it feel like being a bloke? I can see some of you already looking uncomfortable. Not least because we're recording this in Leeds which is the home of understated manliness. Yorkshire is the kind of place where you're not even allowed to cry when chopping onions. And Leeds is the kind of place where sharing your mental health problems means sighing just before you down a pint. Yeah, I've gigged here a bit over the years. And don't worry, don't worry, because to break the tension from time to time we will have these manly hypotheticals.

You know, the kind of stuff that blokes just talk about in pubs generally. I'm gonna ask you one now. Would you rather never be able to eat meat again and nobody finds out or be able to eat whatever you want but everyone thinks you're a vegan do we have any actual answers to that you'd rather everyone so you have to go around thinking you're a vegan. And how would that play when you're in Barnsley? Not great, but my sister would like me more, so it's a bit of a win-win. Your sister would like you more if she thought you were vegan?

So you'd be living a lie as a vegan for your sister's love? For the family's shareware benefit. Therapy is a great thing. To me, blokeishness is a harmony between two seemingly paradoxical things. Firstly, you have to retain some sense of boyishness, a belief that no matter how busy or grown-up life gets, you should still be afforded time and space to alphabetise your record collection. Yes, babe, I'll take the bins out in a second.

I'm just working out if it should be P for Prince or A for art is formerly known as. Simultaneously, there's a fussiness about the average bloke, right? He'll know that disposing of something at the recycling center is the middle age equivalent of a threesome. Let's be honest, once you hit a certain age, it's better than a threesome.

For one thing, I know where I stand at a recycling centre, I know what goes where and when it's okay to ask for help. At the end of the show, we're going to compile some recommendations in the unlikely event the government of the day ever create a dedicated minister for men. Just a little path forward to make men's lives healthier and happier. Okay, alright, got a bit serious, let's default to one of those manly hypotheticals. How many ducks would it take to kill a full grown rhino? Third row down there, we've got to take it down there. How many ducks would it take to kill a full-grown rhino? Just one. If it got itself wedged down its windpipe. LAUGHTER

That is actually a really good answer. LAUGHTER Yeah, I didn't really think of that. Now, if there are any concerned feminists thinking I'm making a land grab on gender discourse, relax, right? Blokes becoming healthier and happier benefits everybody, and it can only be done at a gradual pace. I'm going for evolution, not relax, right? Blokes becoming healthier and happier benefits everybody and it can only be done at a gradual pace. I'm going for evolution, not revolution, right?

Let's not throw out the baby with the bathwater. But let's also acknowledge that that phrase probably exists because once upon a time a bloke did that. I get pushback from traditional men as well. Jeff, why are you talking about emotions? Let's just push all our feelings down. It didn't do my dad any harm. And he lived to the ripe old age of 52.

Which brings me to this week's subject, health. Now, I know this subject can make you... That silence proves it. It can make your average bloke a bit uneasy. So let me ask this following question as a slightly gentler way in. Give us a cheer, any blokes who went on holiday in a hot country will automatically apply sun cream. Well that felt like a lie, that pause, that was a liar's pause. Alright and of those of you who did cheer give us another cheer if you did that without prompting

from a wife or partner. Liars. Just straight up shameless lying. Men are statistically far less likely to buy and use suncream. Liars. Just straight up shameless lying. Men are statistically far less likely to buy and use sun cream. Both the medical profession and the skincare industry, they acknowledge this, it once prompted an article in Bazaar. Men would rather die than wear sunscreen.

I mean, I hope they didn't stress test that. With gangs of hooded gunmen on a beach. Although I reckon my dad, right, being faced with having to apply sun cream or being shot in the face, he might have gone, you know what, I've had a good innings. I think in his mind, I'm pretty sure that SPF stands for sissies, probably French. By some estimates, 70% of men do not routinely apply protection when faced with the hottest thing in our solar system. It seems like an odd form of optimism until you find out how many men, when asked, think they could take a point off Serena Williams at tennis.

One in eight men believe that they could take a point off the best female tennis player of all time. Which sounds like a good cue for another manly hypothetical. If you are one of those blokes, explain to me how you do it. I've got a box set of disorders. I've got dyslexia, dyspraxia, ADHD. So I haven't got a clue where that ball's going. So, if I'm writing what you're saying, you're saying you don't know where it's going. No.

So how could she? Exactly. I would say it doesn't matter because you wouldn't hit it. With the recent discourse around men generally tending to presume the worst, many might conclude that men's reluctance to use sunblock was down to laziness and stupidity. So let's ask our audience.

Of the men who don't apply sunblock, what's the main thing stopping you? Stupidity. Stupidity. stupidity? i think i could take the sod off. okay follow-up question even though you just said that do you still secretly think you can? yeah. how old are you mate? 59. that's uh well that's very honest of you sir very honest have we got any other

answers back there? Too greasy. It's too greasy. Okay, and does that make you, does it feel sticky on your skin? No, I'm not bothered about the skin. My wife is good enough to put it on, that feels great. But no, it's the effect of sticky hands have got to handle other things and then it's going to grease some of that stuff and that stuff, my bottle's going to be greasy. Fair enough. So it sounds like it's a convenience issue, right? Yeah. You know what issue, right? Yeah.

You know what else is inconvenient? Cancer. One problem identified by the industry is that blokes on the whole don't have a pre-existing skincare regime. It's normal for my wife to put on sun cream because it's normal for her to do all sorts of mysterious things to her skin. I've come to bed and been told to wait because she's moisturising her forearms. I didn't even know that that was a moisturisable region of the body. I thought the height of pampering was putting conditioner on my pubes.

And if you enjoyed that joke, the Inbetweeners is available on all fours. Maybe devoting a lot of time to something which enhances your appearance can feel unmasculine, but loads of blokes who don't moisturise will happily go to the gym, a place where masculinity meets narcissism. It's the one place that a bloke can lift up his shirt in front of a mirror and not get tasered. The other day I saw a bloke doing bicep curls, whilst staring at himself in the mirror and on a work call and I thought, I bet that's not the only thing he does

while maintaining eye contact with himself, right? Then there are the blokes who drop their heavy weights to the floor and make a sex noise. Yeah, what noises do they make when they're actually having sex? I'd imagine it's, do you accept contactless? Now, now, that is a, yeah, that is quite an old fashioned joke in many ways. And I hope you'll see what I did there with something which you don't see often is I had

a set up and a punch line very close together. It's one of only two in the whole series, but I'm glad you enjoyed it. Now maybe the problem with men and sunblock is the language. Skincare sounds a bit too pastoral, doesn't it? It sounds like you're taking your skin out for afternoon tea. The most successful male moisturizer is a brand called Bulldog. Now it sounds macho, but it completely ignores the fact

that even the most manly of men wouldn't want his face to look like a bulldog. Maybe name it after a good looking dog breed. But in fairness, no self-respecting bloke is gonna cover his face in poodle. To appeal more directly to blokes like me, Sunblock needs to sound more adversarial, right? They should make a brand called Sunbastard. Putting on suncream feels like an admission of fear, so shift the context.

Call it Radiation Armor. New Sunbastard Radiation Armor. Stare at the sun and see who blinks first. I'm not manly enough to do that voice for twice. I need a little drink. I know that in an ideal world we'd work on changing men's psychology from a young age and encourage them to ask why they need brand names to make them feel macho. But we are what we are. And be honest, right, blokes would play with the word macho. And I'm not a macho. I'm not a macho.

I'm not a macho. But we are what we are. And be honest right, blokes would pay 50 quid a bottle if Jason Statham bought out an aftershave called War. I would buy that. Now I would wager that some of the problems a British man has put in on sunblock are due to the tactile experience of applying it. But this doesn't hold blokes back in arguably more macho countries, right? Australia has a much better culture of men wearing sunblock, but Australia also has one other key thing, predictable sunny weather.

It's like England fans dealing with being in the final of a major tournament. We've got no idea how to behave. That's how a grown man can end up with a flare nestled to his lower intestine. We also need to acknowledge the issues around the actual physical process of applying the cream. Now maybe we do one of the lads nearer the front here. Which bit of your body, one of the lads at the front, do you find it

hardest to put it on? The bit around your back? Yes. You're saying about the Aussies and how they put on, they're all ripped. I've never seen a fat Aussie. They're all shredded so they can get the bits. I'm fat. I can't reach round there. You're saying you can't get round to your lower back. Do you have a strategy for putting on sun cream? Spray it on the floor and roll around in it. Spray it on the floor and roll around in it.

Just like you're on the bathroom floor, and roll around in it. Just like you're on the bathroom floor, you know, and then clean up afterwards. Okay. So, like, I mean, what an incredible thing. I mean, I think, okay, what's your name, mate? Ian. Will you do me a solid, Ian? I've got a bottle of sun cream here. Ian, I'd like you just, just maybe a bit on your forearms and a bit on your face. I want you to show me what your technique would be with an actual bottle of sun cream.

So give him a round of applause as he heads up here. I'll be coming in. There you go. Okay, good man. Right, you keep that mic. All right, so we're looking. Right, Ian has got the sun cream. He's pouring it into his hands.

Let's see the kind of volume he's going there. That's a good amount. Now, is he going to go left forearm first? He goes left forearm. This is good, this is good. Even applicant, and he's done it on the inside of his forearm. That's going to impress the Colombian judges. And so he's going to the left arm.

This guy, this isn't his first rodeo. Okay. Right, in. Now. For the benefit of the people at home, Ian just rubbed sun cream behind his ears. I think Ian has absolutely hustled me here. You can't do the bit behind you. Yeah, it all goes to shit when you go

and do the bit behind your back, doesn't it? It looks like, you know when a cat tries to lick the bit under his chin. Ladies and gentlemen, Ian turns out to be an absolute pro. I really love how you're going to have to explain to somebody in 18 degrees overcast weather why you're stinking of Nivea. For many men, the only other time in our lives when we're involved in the application of such creams to shoulder, chest and legs as massages are a prelude to sex.

And even then it's a process most of us would have happily done without. But we're aware that foreplay can't begin and end with pointing out the kids are asleep. Women are generally more in tune with their body because it speaks to them more often, right? The female body has more finely tuned cycles and components. For blokes, the end of puberty is the start of a long period where nothing in particular happens. There can be a decades long truce to your early 50s when you get a surprise finger up the backside. We're swanning around feeling immortal and less told otherwise. We don't have the equivalent of a smear test to remind us which things can go wrong.

We don't have mammograms. Even getting blokes to check their own balls can be a bit of a ball ache. That must be particularly hard for women to fathom, as most men have seen more than happy to have a rummage right up until you tell them that they have to. At which point they go all coy and act like it's a first date with their genitals. It turns out juggling their plums was only fun if the plums were forbidden fruit. It's not a joke but it's a lovely sentence I think. Perhaps this is why blokes have a reputation for being difficult to get to go to the doctors.

My dad was classically stoic about his health. He died in 2015 after a short battle with pancreatic cancer. Now I realise this is already getting a bit heavy so we'll just split this up with another quick manly hypothetical. Who would win in a snooker match between Darth Vader and Thanos? Hands up. We take one from the middle and the back of the room. Hiya, Choke. Hiya. Am I in the Rovers? It's got to be Darth Vader.

OK, it's got to be Darth Vader. Why would that be? Well, like, just choking with his mind over what's it, wouldn't he? Wooo! I wish you'd been in Star Wars. I mean... Back to my dad's health, right? A nurse told us his diagnosis of pancreatic cancer was one of the most late stages she'd ever encountered.

I looked at my dad and he was smiling and gave me a wink, as if to say, top that, son, top that. I'm a record breaker in your face. Proper man. He didn't like any fuss around the process of being ill. I remember when we went to the consultation, right, to hear what was wrong with him,

and the consultant, she breezed in, and she said, ah, Norcock family is it. We went, yeah, she said, I'm afraid it's not good news. And I think I'd seen too many talent shows at that time because I thought she was gonna go, it's great news, you're going to the live finals. And she then added, she said, I'm afraid it is stage four pancreatic cancer.

We went, oh. And then she said, yeah, it's the same cancer Patrick Swayze had. I was like, okay, why are you telling us that? Are we supposed to be happy that dad's got quite a sexy cancer twin? And I looked at my dad, right, and he was frowning. I thought he's going to kick off. And he went, who's Patrick Swayze?

I was like, yeah, dad, that is definitely the thing we need follow up info on that. Have you got a pamphlet, maybe? And then my sister went, he was in big trouble in little China. I went, no that was Kurt Russell. He just looked like Patrick Swayze. Turns out my dad had stage four terminal banter. Soldering on is something blokes like the idea of. I admire soldering on but it turns out there are solid reasons why we shouldn't. Men are more likely to develop cancer and women are more likely to survive it. Overall men with any type of cancer were 6% more likely to die of their disease than women with cancer. This rose to more than 12% when comparing men and women with the same cancer type.

The same. Okay, feels like we need a manly hypothetical. What would be better? Never masturbating again or having to masturbate every hour on the hour? Every hour. Every hour. Never again. We got a guy down here that says never again

in the black hoodie at the front. We'll take a couple of answers on this. He's starting to regret having answers on this. Absolutely. Okay, so first up, give me your answer and your reason. Well, reluctantly, I feel like it'd be better to never masturbate again, just because, you know, you never know where you're gonna be,

where you're out, who you with. Let's say it's part of grandma's funeral, do you know what I mean? And you've gotta go, because the hour clock's here, and you have to go. Sorry, sorry, I feel like we just need to dial back. You just said you could be at your grandma's funeral. Yeah!

That is both an excellent counterfactual, but weird that that's what came into your brain. Okay, now having heard that very strong robust argument against, who is going for every hour on the hour? Anybody? Every hour. Okay, there's a guy in the second row there every hour on the hour tell me why well I think nowadays a much struggle but during GCSE study leave not a problem the disparity in cancer outcomes for men and women I spoke about might come as a

surprise you might wonder why we aren't hearing more about this. One reason is that men's ability to organise for our mutual benefit is poor. It's odd that we're credited with having created the patriarchy, like a global movement to preserve men's collective privilege, so we're supposed to be looking out for each other but not to the point that we actually help each other live. The second reason this shocking stat might pass under the radar is that people often presume men have worse cancer outcomes because of lifestyle.

That's right, they do it to themselves. Drinking more, smoking more, engaging in more hazardous lifestyles, going out dressed like that. Hey, lads, you were asking for it. However, lifestyle factors are increasingly believed to play less of a role than previously thought. So I think we might have finally discovered the most toxic thing about masculinity. It's masculinity.

Masculinity isn't toxic, it's carcinogenic. Just being males like smoking 40 a day and drizzling whiskey on a breakfast of sauteed asbestos. I think they actually serve that at least, don't they? At the Wetherspoons. Asbestos Thursday. One way that women have an actual immune advantage is that estrogen, it might actually influence what are called signalling pathways. So it turns out that estrogen and testosterone literally act like men and women.

If testosterone was a person, it would be a fat guy at a party, riding down a slide on a tiny bike just to get a laugh, right? While estrogen is busy making sure everybody's Ubers have arrived, you know what I'm saying? Rather than moaning about female biological privilege, and I suppose you could argue that pregnancy and childbirth slightly balance the books in terms of the burdens we face, we just need to accept that this makes it even more important

for us to get to the doctors as soon as possible. But we don't. Why? I think, speaking personally, my biggest fear isn't me getting ill, it's my wife, right? I think she'd be alright without me in the long run, but it wouldn't work out so well for me without her. Losing my wife terrifies me. It does. It's my biggest fear. To the extent that what she thinks is foreplay

is often me checking her for lumps. LAUGHTER Er, yes, yes, babe, yes, babe, you can be the sexy nurse and I'll be the sexy radiologist with this sexy, real X-ray machine. Er, now raise both your hands above your head, please, and I will need to leave the room momentarily. LAUGHTER both your hands above your head please, and I will need to leave the room momentarily. In other ways, I don't fit the stereotype around men and health.

I'm not especially stoic, but I wasn't always like that. And even when my body did make a noise, I didn't really understand often what it was saying. In 2010, I was under the impression I'd been suffering from acid reflux, right? And I was on a holiday in Egypt, and it became more insistent. So I visited a hospital there and it turned out to be a cardiac issue. I got rushed in to decide if it might be fatal

and spoiler alert, it wasn't. This is the point though, isn't it? We're not in tune with our bodies. I'd got to my late thirties thinking my heart was somewhere on the left of my chest and shaped like one you see in cartoons. I still thought it was like a Tom and Jerry heart. But it was a horrible experience.

I was in a foreign country. I mean, they all spoke English, but have you seen the data roaming costs in Egypt? And not only that, because of religious rules, my partner wasn't allowed to spend the night in the room with me. So alone in a hospital bed with no one to turn to for comfort, I realized something quite profound.

I wanted chips. Really wanted chips on On a deep level. I don't know if it was all the adrenaline and drama of getting rushed in, but I couldn't stop thinking about chips. And so at 3am a very kind male nurse called Abbasi made me a chip sandwich, no doubt confirming literally everything he's ever thought about English people. He also bought me a four pack of Mareti as well. You know, a plastic chair and a lobber policeman if I wanted to get back in the holiday spirit. The odd thing was that even though the diagnosis was initially concerning,

I felt better to be getting a proper answer. Deep down, I knew it wasn't just acid reflux, although I do think I should get extra man points for trying to deal with a heart condition by taking Renny. On average, men go to their GP a third less than women. They also go to the pharmacist just four times a year in comparison to 18 times a year for women. But let's be honest and say some of those 18 times women go will be to get pile cream for an embarrassed man. So what does the medical profession think are the leading problems with men getting stuff checked out? What do we think, as an audience, and this is men and women, what do we think stops men going to the doctors as often?

Hands up, have you got any theories? They're embarrassed to go to the doctors. What do you think we could do to make it less embarrassing? Just go in, there's nothing to be ashamed of. I love the fact you're essentially just saying man up, just get in there. Have you got any other answers? The receptionist. The receptionist. Okay, in the spirit of BBC impartiality,

they have a very difficult job, but please tell us, say it. You can say it, I can't. You've got to ring up at eight o'clock in the morning before they open, and then the first question She laughs what's wrong with you? So she's diagnosing you you want to speak to a doctor you want to see be seen by a doctor But she'll go through a standard set of questions by which point you've switched off. I'm fine. I don't need it no more

I love the fact within the space of four seconds you got you know what it's fine you I'll survive, I'll live. I love the fact that in the space of four seconds you've got, you know what, it's fine, you're... That's what you feel. The problem is, like, when you just said to me, she says, oh, what's wrong with you? The problem with me is I'll just go, well, I don't know if my old man really loved me.

That is a dangerous question to ask a stand-up comedian. It's like, I don't know if I ever really feel true joy. That was a bit depressing. Anymore? So, I think you alluded to it just then, I think for a lot, genuinely fear. Society demands strength and kind of presence where, you know, admitting there's something wrong that you can't fight off, that you need help, is very hard for men and that calling up the doctors is a big deal with course of things, they've admitted it effectively. Well I think you're right. I think fear is a massive part of it.

Yeah, no, I think, give him a round of applause. I think it's a very... I think you make a good point, you know. People talk about being uncomfortable during exams as well and stuff like that. And I think this is where men's issues with going to doctors tie in with the reticence to use sunblock. Because whether it's putting on cream in a public place or being prodded by a GP, we're just not match fit. Right? Now... Now I could just say, isn't it awful that men have these reservations and shouldn't we raise our boys to be more open and less blah blah blah

But none of that deals with the fact that it is what it is, right? It has been for some time. So we need some practical methods in the meantime, which help less of us get skin cancer, right? So in our end of show recommendations to a minister for men, I'd like to suggest the following. 50 is too late for a prostate exam. By which point you're likely to have had an unbroken half century of not being penetrated by anything.

It's too long. Give lads a prostate exam from the age of 25, even if they don't need it. Just poke them in the ears, put stuff up their nose. Just make them take lateral flow tests every day, just so they match fit. You could call in younger men, GPs could call in younger men,

under the cover of more manly reasons, right? The GP could just text and say, bro, I saw your overhead kick on TikTok, man. That must have put serious strain on your delts, G. But then when he gets there, ask if you can take a blood pressure test, just to see if being such a nailed on ledge is getting to them. Men love efficiency, right? So bring the doctors where the men already are.

Situate them next to the stand, selling chicken borty pies at football. So let me just check the temperature of that pie for you and while you're at it, remove your trousers. Game of fire. Men love a game they can beat, so let them punch a little stamp every time they go to the doctor's and on your ape visit you get to meet Jeremy Clarkson. Or to get some extra cardio in, why not get a match of

sun cream paintball going, right? There's something acceptable about a man taking care of himself if it involves pain and guns. You have to make it non-tactile macho fun. So you know how you have those coin-operated car washes you get at petrol stations? Have something like that on a beach, right? You put in a quid, you stick some goggles, and you run through it while getting sprayed with factor 50. Is it stupid?

Yes. Is it a bit immature? Yes. But so are we. Ladies and gentlemen, this has been Jeff Norcott's Working Men's Club. Woo! Jeff Norcott's Working Men's Club was written and performed

by Jeff Norcott. The producer was Ed Morrish and it was a peer production for BBC Radio 4. Alright, we've finished recording the show. Just be honest, be honest, the blokes who don't normally apply sun cream, how many people feel like they're more likely to do that on their next holiday? No. Awesome. Laughing and learning. Thanks for listening to the Comedy of the Week podcast from BBC Radio 4. If you want

more check out the Friday Night Comedy podcast featuring the news quiz and dead ringers. From BBC Radio 4, John Holmes says the C word. I am John Holmes and last year I was diagnosed with prostate cancer. Following surgery, I'm recovering just fine now, thanks for asking, but it's all been a bit weird. And I think it feels weird, not least, because men don't really like talking about this stuff. So I've gathered together a load of other men who've been through it for brutally honest and, yes, funny conversations about all things cancer. Across the series we'll be hearing from, amongst many others, Stephen Fry. You saved my life. Oh my goodness.

It's a wonderful thing to hear. Eric Idle. That's not the most desirable side effect, but it's funny. And the BBC's international editor, Jeremy Bowen. I took a dump on a newspaper. John Holmes says the C word. Listen on BBC Sounds.