Conan O’Brien Needs A Friend - We’re gettin’ Belayed!

Episode Date: April 17, 2025

Conan talks to Phil in Vermont about organizing adventure-based team building activities for kids. Plus, Phil runs the Chums through a group emotional exercise. Wanna get a chance to talk to Conan? Submit here: teamcoco.com/apply Get access to all the podcasts you love, music channels and radio shows with the SiriusXM App! Get 3 months free using this show link: https://siriusxm.com/conan.

Conan O'Brien needs a fan. Want to talk to Conan? Visit teamcoco.com slash call Conan. Okay, let's get started. Hey Phil, welcome to Conan O'Brien needs a fan. Phil, how are you? Hey Conan, Sona, Matt. How's it going?

There's no particular orders of the way I said your name in terms of hierarchy. It's fine. It's fine. It's fine. And it's nice to talk to you. Phil, Phil, tell us a little bit about yourselves. I like to, you know, get the parameters of a man before we continue speaking. What, where are you right now?

So I live in Vermont. And- Yeah, you've got that Vermont accent. Yeah. I was almost gonna say it and you, you've got that Vermont accent. Yeah. I was almost gonna say it and you said it for me. I know. With this traditional Vermont accent. Yeah, where are you from originally?

I'm originally from a town called Ipswich in England on the East Coast. Okay, very nice. I felt I should experience New England. Yes. And so that's where I live now. It's so funny, I grew up in New England and really believed when I was a boy

that England had stolen the names of our towns. I really believed that. Is that what they tell you? No, I just was, I found out that, you know, cause I grew up in Boston and there's Cambridge and just on and on and on. And I just thought, you know, Stirbridge. And then I started to hear about these places in England

and thought, well, why can, Stirbridge and then I started to hear about these places in England and thought, well, why can't they get their own names? So. I remember I went to Ipswich Mass, so you may be familiar, but they have an Ipswich Mass Brewery. And I went in and I said, I'm from Ipswich.

And they said, well, no shit, we're in Ipswich. I said, no, no, the original. And I expected to be carried on shoulders, but that did not happen. No, there's not a lot of, ever since we got rid of your king, we don't go carrying people around on our shoulders. But well, so you live in Vermont,

how did you choose Vermont? What made you say, okay, you have the entire United States to play with, what made you choose Vermont? I would say the beauty. If you've been- It's gorgeous. It's a beautiful state. And it also happens to be Howells, the location at which I work.

So it was through work that I ended up in Vermont. It wasn't necessarily a choice, but I am very glad for the choice. It's a beautiful state to raise a kid in. I like New Hampshire, I like Vermont. I've spent a lot of time in both. And I'm curious what you do. You mentioned a job, what is your job?

Yeah, so I work for an organization called High Five Adventure Learning Center. And I use adventure-based activities for team and leadership development from fifth grade kids all the way up to the Boston Bruins. So a spectrum. It's very interesting to me that it's the same principles if you're talking to someone in the fifth grade

or if you're talking to a professional athlete, it's the same principles, I guess, leadership, how to work together, how to have fun. Yeah, and I would say I'm unique in that I get to take people on a ropes course in Vermont. So, you know, we bring participants up to 40, 50 feet in the air and kind of have stretch moments for them. So really have kind of really extreme experiences really

that allows them to kind of develop more as a team. And it doesn't matter if you're a fifth grader or you're a professional athlete, the heights is the great normalizer or the great equalizer. Yeah, and now, okay, let's get into the safety of it because you send a fifth grader up a pole, how many feet in the air? Let's say 40, 40, 50, make it anywhere within that range.

Is the child tethered or is there a good chance the child could fall to his or her doom? I would assume that if we did it untethered, we wouldn't be allowed. So no, it is very much tethered. What a weird way to go at that. That seems very legalistic. So no, it is very much tethered. What a weird way to go at that. That seems very legalistic.

That's, yeah. I would assume that were one to have an untethered child, that if found out, one would be discovered and one could be in trouble. I think you have untethered children. And I think kids are falling like apples. Apples in October. I think they're tumbling apples. Apples in October. I think they're tumbling and you're just catching them.

We start to get calls from parents immediately after this is over. No, they're on a rope. We belay them. And I would say the, I've seen you climb. I believe there was a kind of Moscow episode where you climbed. Yes.

You're an incredible physique, mastered the climb. Hey, I like you by the way. You're fantastic. And clearly you don't have a very good, you don't have a very good television screen. But I, yes, I did climb. I did a rock wall in Thailand, I believe. Yeah. The differing factor I would say for our programs

is we actually teach our participants to do the belaying. So, um, that is that demonstration of team and leadership development is actually giving them a skill and allowing them to be responsible for their team members. Oh, and so that is something that I really, I think that the, the, the free of you bring Eduardo ring play, but,. But teach Sona how to belay, and then have Sona in charge of Conan. No, no.

Oh, yes. Guess what, guess what, Phil. I've experienced Sona in charge of Conan. I think I did about 10 years of Sona in charge of Conan, and I was killed multiple times. Shit went half-assed all over the place. So you're saying that I would be hanging 50 feet in the air, and the only thing between me and death would be a rope,

and Sona's holding onto it? Yes. Yes. And then Sona sees a glass of white wine in the corner. Oh. Let's go with a rope. Wine. And I go, ah! And you go, shrip, shrip, shrip, shrip, shrip, shrip, shrip.

Shrip, shrip, shrip. Yeah, I likerip, shrip, shrip, shrip, shrip, shrip, shrip, shrip, shrip, shrip. Yeah, I like that idea. I think we should do this team building thing. I think that would really bring us closer together. So is it all climbing? It's critical for all teams. Is it all climbing?

What other things would we do? No. So I would say we range it from ground initiatives, they may be problem solving activities on the ground, there is connection activities to get you more connected as a team. And then we focus on the development of your trust and your responsibility and your decision making. And then you bring you to that point of belaying each other. Really that's that ultimate point. We'll get you there, right? But Phil, Phil, let me ask you a question.

I have a hundred percent faith in my abilities. Phil, I have a lot of faith in you, Phil. Is it possible that it's our dysfunction that makes this podcast popular? That it's our inability to get along, our childishness, our peevishness, our just overall, I don't know, just refusal to act like good people that might be the glue here. That's right.

It's that we don't have a balance. We have a like equal amount of repulsion for each other. We're pulling on each other with equal amounts. So we stay tethered. Is that possible? It's highly possible. And actually I've listened to all of the episodes from my professional lens,

I would say you're a really high functioning team, despite the repulsion. I think that repulsion could be there and your team could still be successful. I like the head nods and the- No, no, I am agreeing with you that there are some, in architecture, sometimes an arch works because various forces are acting upon each other

in an aggressive way, but that's what holds it all together. I've often heard, often, I've heard aviation experts describe a helicopter as a machine that wants to pull itself apart, but it's engineered in such a way that it doesn't, and that's actually what gives it its integrity. That's the analogy. I think we're a helicopter that desperately

wants to fly apart, rotors zipping in every direction, Adam Sacks walking into the room, his head being lopped off, carnage, massacre, flames, but it's something keeps it all together. And because of that, we're able to fly around through the air and give the local traffic report. Yeah, so everywhere around you is destroyed,

but this group stays intact. Wow, beautiful. That's nice. Where did you first become interested in all of this, Phil? You're a young boy. You're living in Eastern... Young boy. Well, I'm saying he's a young boy.

He's in Eastern coast, I'm imagining, of England, the salty air, sausage for breakfast. Please. Also some beans, the ever-present beans. And some tea. With milk. Milk, yeah, syrup, yeah. And then something, Vermont.

Please, you're getting me very heightened. Right, I thought we were talking about Vermont. And then suddenly you get into team building. Was there another plan along the way or was this always the plan, do you think? So I was, my education is in teaching. And so I was going to become a teacher and I came over to the States to do a summer camp program. It's a rite of passage, it seems like for a European to enter America and work a summer camp program. So I felt like I had to do it.

And at the camp, they had a ropes course, they had team development, and they did year-round programming. And I kind of just fell in. They said, you've got a teaching degree, we'd love for you to stick around. And they sponsored my visa. Oh, very cool. 18 years later, I'm still here.

So I've yet to find my way home. Well, I think you're thriving. It's reminding me, I went to summer camp in Freedom, New Hampshire. And there was a camp there called Cragged Mountain Farm. And we had, I had a, one of my counselors was from Britain. So, and I remembered climbing the presidential mountain range.

And there was this gentleman with a British accent who would tell us to move our asses, get up that hill. And we killed him. And we ate him. It was delicious. Yeah, we were running low on food. We only had six more weeks of food left for a two-day hike.

So it was necessary that he die and be eaten. Phil, I really respect people that teach for a living and it's absolutely wonderful. And do you find ever that a kid or even an adult gets up to the top of the pole and they just won't budge and they just won't move and you're coaxing them and coaxing them, but they don't move. What do you do at that point?

Push on BB guns. So I think it really, I love this one, it said push them. Push them and BB gun. This is what I'm working BB gun. I love the way they said push them. Push them and BB gun. This is what I'm working with. Are you up there with them? Or is someone up there with them? But I would say the question of push them does come up often and it's the number one

thing we say not to do. So sorry, Sona. Can I give you my suggestion? Sure. Electrify the full. They suddenly snap. They snap. Ooh. The, but I love your instincts. Can I give you my suggestion? Electrify the pole. Yeah.

Yeah. They suddenly spread out like a flattened squirrel and they fall through space. I love it. An electrified pole, that's the answer. Do they die? You don't have to, because it, well, it's not my concern. What I'm saying is that a BB gun,

you have to hit them 15 feet. Well, that's a whole nother activity for some other children for some team building. So you're kind of combining. Another group. Off to the side. So to answer the question, there's two parts to it. I like that you laughed at that. There's two parts to it. We're clearly not trying to learn anything.

Well, I will, I do. I will answer your question and give you the knowledge you need to the three idiots. I'm a little. I don't know that I'm good. Pushing and electrifying the pole. Wondering if I'll find myself in a situation where I have to push a kid down a pole.

I don't know, but I'm eager to hear how to do it. This is the next Korea path for you, Matt. So, I've, we have adequately prepared the students so that we're not having people up who shouldn't be up there. We don't force them up. Oh, so there's a long, a lot of training before they go up the pole. Yeah. I would say there's like loads of sequencing planning as part of the risk management thing and then, but the other component is that I teach as well as teaching the team building stuff, I also teach rescue training for those kind of

scenarios. So we can have participants go up to height or staff members, sorry, go up to height and then help pick a participant off the course. So there's like a spectrum or a range of rescue scenarios that we can do. And I teach those too. So from a risk management lens, I would say you're in safe hands because not only can we deal with the mental side of how to help people, but we can also deal with the physical component of getting someone down if necessary but we can also deal with the physical component of getting someone down if necessary. We wouldn't want to push someone though, unfortunately.

We berate them? That would be terrible. I think electrifying much better. I think berating is a huge, well, this is your little pussy. Sona brings up a good point. Are you, it could be valuable to shame someone who doesn't. Yeah, yeah.

And you know, I know your first reaction as an educator is that, oh, you can't shame a fifth grader, but I was shamed many times as a fifth grader and I think it molded me into the person I am today. Case in point. Well, hold it, excuse me. Okay, all right. Driving home in three Maseratis all tied together.

Not easy to do. But what I'm saying, Phil, is that if a child fails and has to be brought down, is there any ceremony where the child is maybe drummed out, little epaulettes are torn from his shoulders. Kelted. You know, or in some way made to suffer for his cowardice. I would say that regardless of anything I do

to try to reduce that from happening, that will probably happen in some way. Yeah, kids will be kids. I would say the worst people that would, if there was a school group, sometimes the worst people are the teachers. And if it's a family group, the worst people are the teachers. And if it's a family group, the worst people are the parents.

They're the ones who are screaming the obscenities sometimes. But for the most part, I think that we are very calm and relaxed about the way that we talk with our students. And we attempt not to shame people if they were to fail or come down. I know, I'm sorry. But if you come.

I understand you have a little game for us to play. It may work with us. Okay. We've just shown up in Ipswich, Vermont. Our car broke down and overheated. Uh, it was a 1977 Hyundai. Uh, which didn't even exist. We weren't even planning on going? No. Uh, and...

No, we were driving through. We're on our way to a yard sale because they have a ton of those in New Hampshire and Vermont. You've probably noticed that on the weekends, everyone just puts literally toilet seats on their yard and says it's a yard sale. I beg to differ, Vermont. But anyway, and please, no angry letters, I won't read them.

So we come wandering in and we need your team building. What would you have us do? So first I would say you're in the wrong place because there's no Ipswich Vermont. So, but after you've... Son of a bitch. He just shamed you. He just shamed, you just shamed me.

And all the other kids are laughing. It does come from the teacher. Ah, loser. Sorry. You little pussy. Oh no. Eurogeography imbecile. Yeah, I'm gonna shove you off the pole.

I'm from New England, I can't. Wait a minute, all this shame. Stop firing BBs at me. All this shame is molding me into an amazing comedian. Thank you, Phil. Task done. Task done. You arrive and then I say, get back into your car, please.

My service isn't no longer needed. Yes, very good. No, but if you make it to the right location. And I think the first thing we would start with is because adventure, I think, sometimes gets misinterpreted as the climbing parts. But adventure is any form of risk and it could be physical, it could be emotional, it could be social risk.

The first thing we're gonna start with is actually talking about our emotions, which can be a risk for some people. I know, and I can see the excitement in your faces and the pointing of other people. So what we're going to do is I am going to share with you on the screen a number grid. So you've got one through seven. So what I'm going to ask, I'll ask one of you at a time. We can start with Conan. I'm going to ask you to pick two numbers. That's a level of risk,

because you don't know what's behind them. But there are emotions and feelings words under these numbers. What I would like you to do once you see the words is describe an experience or name an experience that you have had where you have experienced both of those feelings at the same time. Because we as humans are not only experiencing one thing at a time when it comes to emotions.

Okay. And so, but the situation I wanted to be that you've experienced as a trio. So an experience you've had that you've experienced these two emotions. Oh, the three of us have had, okay. And wow, this is, I got to thread a lot of needles here. It's got to be, it's going to be two emotions

I've felt at the same time with these two. Okay, so I'm gonna go with 17 and I'm gonna go with 44. Okay, so 17 is angry. Oh my God. Piece of cake. All right, hang on. No scenarios here. And you've also experienced embarrassment.

How have you both angry and embarrassed alongside your children? Today? Oh, well, I mean, yeah, excluding just now and the interview we did before this. Listen, I talked to some, you know, I worked hard to become, you know, a fairly well-known celebrity, and then these two are coasting on my coattails.

I'm often sitting here with some of the biggest names in the business, or if you're a bumblebee, the buzzness. And out of control. He's out of control. And I'm not... I'm angry about that. Buzzness. I'm embarrassed about this answer. I'm here with these two. I mean, you were my assistant, and somehow you were elevated to the top of the showbiz pile.

Yeah. Matt Gourley is in his zither band. He plays some of the coolest, you know, spots in Pasadena. And he haunts the Rose Bowl Swamp Meet. And I've put both of them in rooms with Harrison Ford, you know, some of the biggest stars in the world. All of the Kardashians have been here at the same time. And do I sometimes get angry about that

and feel embarrassed that they lack the skills that I've spent years in the minds of comedy working? Yes, I do. I feel both of those things. But I'm gonna specifically name a time. I think it was one of our, just pick one, but I think I was angry and embarrassed when you guys, both of you, became intoxicated

in one of our Chill Chums shows. One of. Well, it's happened several times. And I- Every time. And I, you know, I pride myself on being a professional. And of course I imbibed a little, but was still in plenty of, I know my levels, my tolerance very well.

And so I still was in control and I was ashamed. I'm gonna add ashamed to embarrassed and angry. Oh, wow. I was angry, embarrassed, ashamed, and I felt superior to both of you. I'm adding that one too. I'm also adding. That's a lot.

Yeah, okay, so I guess I won that contest. Yeah, okay, I appreciate that. And it feels like I've really said. Wasn't that the idea to win? You don't win. Didn't I win? No, we're team building. We're on the same team.

You are really, you're tearing our team even further apart. But Phil, wouldn't you say, whatever they say, it's not gonna be as good as that. So don't I win and I'm the winner? Do I get, is there a prize? Poof. I think that your experience. Are you questioning?

He works with children. Are you questioning your whole professional? You just made that man say poof. That was going to get out of the team building business. I have worked with professional hockey athletes who have told me to F off. And I even in this, poof, that made him oof. But I would say I really set you up there with almost those two words. I'm gonna pass it over if I may to Sona.

Sona, pick two words. Let's see if we can think of a situation you've maybe had and let you speak it over. How about 10? Two numbers. 10 and 40. Okay, these are, I can tell they're good. It's serene.

Oh my goodness. Well, I know when she said serene. Yeah. It matches your gummy. And then number 40 is frustrated. Oh. That's an interesting combo. Serene and frustrated.

I know that is kind of- How did you feel both? Um, you know, chill chums when I was drunk. Yeah. Yeah. I was happy I was drunk and I was also frustrated I wasn't also a little chum when I was drunk. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I was happy I was drunk and I was also frustrated I wasn't also a little high. Yeah.

Yeah. That's a really good answer. Yeah. Yeah, that is. And it speaks a lot to the team. I picture Sona being serene and frustrated when she's got a bag and it's got four gummies in it and she's had three and so she's serene but she can't get at that fourth one

because it's jammed down into the bottom of the bag. I'm like Winnie the Pooh with the honeycomb. Yeah and your hands aren't working that well so you're both serene and frustrated because that last gummy evades your grip. Yeah okay, alright I like this game. Wow, I know I like what you're doing and I'm also sensing that they're both tied to the Chiltrums experience. Wow. I know. I like what you're doing. And I'm also sensing that they're, they're both tied

to the Chiltrums experience. Yeah. Um, beautifully. So yeah. Um, alcohol involved in both. I will highlight that also. Uh, lastly, I'll come to you, Matt, for the last one. Okay. I'll do, uh, four and, um, how about, uh, 57. See how we all do extremes. Four is surprised. Okay, 57 is chill. Oh! What an end. Oh, surprised and chill. Okay, well, I feel like I've gotta carry on

with this tradition with chill, the chill chums. I felt very chill because we were having alcohol and a lot of it, so it kind of mellows you out. And you make an amazing drink. I want to compliment this gentleman. One of the best mixologists, I'm not even kidding, your drinks are superb. That's nice, thank you.

Still, I gotta say, I was surprised when you said that you weren't drunk on the chill chumps thing. Because I remember you slurring some words and at one point talking to us, but looking inside the drink while you're talking to us like it was a microphone. I... had suffered a terrible cerebral event

unrelated to alcohol that night, and for you to mock me for it, it was a total coincidence that I had, yeah, like an eruption of blood into the brain. Um... Well, it looks like an eruption of blood into the brain. Well, it looks like we're just a bunch of terrible drinkers. Wait, do you do anything with that? Oh, absolutely, and I think what's nice is that

what we're able to do in this, in this small moment, is reflect on stuff that's happened in the past, talk about it as a group, share some of these experiences together that have tied us together, and that allows us to progress into doing stuff that's a little bit more risky as a group. So all of those things are really positive. You're saying we should drink more next time. Sure. Or come to Vermont and I'll get you belaying each other. There you go. That's

that next level. That's nice. I want to belay you guys. Yeah. What? Yeah. I want to belay. I want to be in charge of your life. Okay. Let's get belayed.

Yeah, yeah. Spring break. Tonight we're getting belayed. Cut to me hanging on a rope. Hey, tonight I'm getting belayed. Me hanging on a rope, you firing away with your 22. Well, I think we've gone a lot here. I can already tell the name of this episode,

so that's great. That would do me well. We're getting belayed. Yeah, we're getting belayed, okay. Thanks, Phil, you're doing all the work for us. Well, Phil, lovely, absolutely lovely talking to you. Again, I say this without irony or it's just no joke, when people teach for a living,

I think that's a beautiful thing and you seem like you'd be great at it. You've already demonstrated that you're affable and you're funny and you're smart. And so thank you so much for the work that you do. And I bet you are helping a lot of people of all ages. And I, you never know, I might make my way up to blank Vermont very soon. Ipswich.

What's that? Ipswich. It's not Ipswich. Ipswich. Sorry for being so fascinated by your British roots. But maybe we will make it up there someday, and I'd like to shake your hand. You're a fine fellow.

And you look a little bit like a younger Billy Bragg. Just gonna say that. I love Billy Bragg. He's great, yeah. Wow, so the difference is a fifth grader once said to me, "'Hey Phil, do you know who you look like?' And that doesn't often go well. And I was a little concerned and I said,

"'No, who do I look like?' Sona and Matt might get the reference, but they told me I look like a llama llama red pajama. Oh yeah. I was gonna say Josh Homie. I was thinking Gronk. Oh no, I was thinking Josh Homie from- Queens of the Stone Age?

Yeah, Queens of the Stone Age. But you know what, you sound like Clive Owen. These are so much nicer. Don't you think he sounds like Clive Owen? He does sound like Clive Owen. Yeah. This much nicer. Don't you think he sounds like Clive Owen? He does sound like Clive Owen. Yeah. Yeah. Well.

This is so much better. You are better than fifth graders. Yay! Is that a compliment? That's the nicest thing anyone's said to me in a while. Oh. Oh. Phil, thank you so much.

Lovely to talk to you. Continued success. And I hope we cross paths in the future. Thank you so much, friends. Take care. Bye-bye. Bye. Conan O'Brien needs a fan with Conan O'Brien, Sonam Avsesian, and Matt Gourley.

Produced by me, Matt Gourley. Executive produced by Adam Sachs, Jeff Ross, and Nick Leal. Incidental music by Jimmy Vivino. Take it away, Jimmy. Supervising producer, Aaron Blayard. Associate talent producer, Jennifer Samples, Associate Producers Sean Doherty and Lisa Berm. Engineering by Eduardo Perez.

You'll get three free months of SiriusXM when you sign up at siriusxm.com slash Conan. Please rate, review, and subscribe to Conan O'Brien Needs a Fan wherever fine podcasts are down.