Creatives Grab Coffee - Adapting Your Business Model (ft. Notch Video) | Creatives Grab Coffee 11

Episode Date: December 15, 2020

Welcome to Creatives Grab Coffee, hosted by Kyrill Lazarov & Dario Nouri. CGC is a platform where creatives and business professionals discuss industry topics and share experiences.Today we welcome our guest Ian Buck As a co-founder of Notch Video, Ian took his years of experience working at PR, social, digital & ad agencies & merged them with his passion for storytelling through video. Subscribe and follow for future episodes!Produced by LAPSE PRODUCTIONS - www.lapseproductions.com

Welcome to Creative Scrap Coffee, hosted by Kirill Lazarev and Dario Nuri. CGC is a show where we invite business professionals to discuss industry topics and share experiences. Today we welcome our guest Ian Buck. As a co-founder of Notch Video, Ian took his years of experience working at PR, social, digital, and ad agencies and merged them with his passion for storytelling through video. We hope you enjoy our discussion let us start you guys have a sweet setup going oh thank you believe it or not it's like so like compact it's a little it's a little bit packed in right now but it's like a proper tv studio right every time you go in you're like oh it looks huge on tv but yeah they're so small yeah it's typically the cgi that is uh that is put in the background

to make it look a lot bigger than it actually is. Like on the side, you can still see like the grip holding one of the lights because they ran out of sandbags. But yeah, it's been a long time. I think I first met you, I think a year after we started, um, on 10,000 coffees. Is that thing still around? started on 10,000 coffees is that thing still around oh that's right yes that is where we met yeah that's right what had you are was it a were you a year into it or it must have been a year what happened what happened was we launched the the name and the business in September of 2014 so that's when laps was born but we didn't actually start pushing the business until about, I think, April of 2015, which is around the time when you guys met.

We technically registered the business in March of 2015. Yeah, but we launched it. And then officially launched the company in September of 2015. Yeah. So you've been working on it. Yeah, yeah, basically. Yeah. I think we met and then, uh, I'm actually trying to remember what advice advice you gave me. Cause I remember what you told me, like, I actually remembered it through the years. I think you were saying how, um, Oh yeah. Going forward, you're going to need to take on more of a producing role

and you're going to need to find people that'll just take care of a lot of like the administrative stuff or just that'll come in and start shooting for, I think that should start shooting for you. I think that's what you were saying. Yeah, that sounds about right. Took about four years until it started to really get adopted into the business practices. But you know, when you're young, you're, you're trying to learn as much as you can, right? A hundred percent. Yeah. And, uh, I mean, it's the best way to figure it out right is to go from the do every job all the way up and uh that never hurts so it is a slow process so you know you're gonna be interesting to just get uh your your history like how you got into it and where you are now? Sure. My background is actually PR. I went to

a PR, Humber PR school. And from that, got an internship and started working in PR agencies. I was a publicist at Much Music for a while, back when Much Music was a thing, as I date myself. And then I started working at an agency called High Road Communications, and I was there for almost 10 years. And I worked primarily on Xbox and one of the things because back in the day Xbox was pretty early so this was launching the first consoles all the games and stuff and gaming obviously had a big community presence online now this was pre any kind of social so but it was like forums and all that kind of stuff. So we had to develop this way of, you know, working with communities online, that actually, as social media started rolling

out translated very nicely into that. So the skill set was was there. And one of the things that we recognized very early on was the need for content, whether it's just photos or whatever, but especially rich media. And so during my time at High Road, we basically just started making videos. And I got my brother-in-law who had been working in film, you know, like an Emmy award winning sound guy, and he decided just to start shooting stuff. So we worked together, made videos for Xbox and that kind of stuff. And it really just started to grow from there. I remained, you know, in a PR agency but started a social division and grew that within a PR agency then we acquired digital capabilities so brought that in as well and so you know just started working that way after that I went to an ad agency Sid Lee where I worked as a strategist. And that was interesting because that kind of gave me

a good breadth of understanding of all the types of agencies out there. And after that, you know, I met Yotam, who is my partner at Notch. And we started talking about it and eventually Notch Video was born. But really the key for us was, the question we asked ourselves was, how are all these brands gonna make quick, simple content that works for their brand? It has to match their brand. It has to feel like

it represents the company properly. So it can't be crap. But, you know, there's got to be another way versus bringing in, you know, these big agencies built for TV commercial production and trying to retrofit that to like a nimble, quick social shoot. So that's where we started talking about and that's where Notch was born from. And, you know, I think the fact of launching Notch Video from scratch allowed us to do things a little differently. So we spent about a year building a database of all these amazing content creators like yourselves, right? Like people coming up that, you know, weren't sure how to break into the big TV shoots or that kind of stuff. Like, cause that can take years to get to, right.

But we recognize that there was a lot of talent out there. to, right? But we recognized that there was a lot of talent out there, technology had allowed any crew to be basically fully set up for a fraction of what it would have cost 10 years before the right equipment, all that kind of stuff. And so we built that database and then built Notch Video around it, where we are essentially a nimble creative shop. And we, instead of having any in-house production capabilities, everything becomes outsourced to this database of freelancers and small production companies. What that allowed us to do was to be profitable for any job. So we would work for a brand and we would do a hundred thousand dollar beautiful, you know, spot, but then we would also do, you know, a $2,000, you know, social asset. And the model of ad agencies was built for TV commercials. And so for them to do that, it did not make sense. Their process doesn't allow them to be profitable

on a $2,000 job. Whereas we were so nimble with our small group of producers and then this distributed network of creators we could be profitable at any size job and so um that's kind of how we started and um it was a lot of selling and a lot of education um you know i think one of our first decks was called Why Video? Right. And it was like, you know, just a primer and how important motion is and how engaging it is for audiences and how it's a great way to communicate with customers. And, you know, we did that first. And about six months in, we're like, oh, my my god how many times are you going to present this deck right and we're like it can't be much longer because surely people are whatever I think we

presented that up until a couple years ago like you know it's like five or six years and we're still presenting it so there was a long way to go for uh the industry to basically catch up. I mean, the marketing industry overall is such a giant, you know, behemoth of an industry. It's, it's very slow to turn. Right. And you see that what was interesting to us was to see that not just on the agency side where they were having a hard time kind of adapting to like nimble production, but also on the client side. And then you recognize, you know, everyone in this industry has grown up

with a certain process, how to make a TV commercial, right? And that's a very specific process and it's been refined over the years. So it works really well well and at the end you come out with this amazing piece but it takes three to six months maybe a year you know and in the meantime your Facebook community is wondering if you if your company's still alive right so yeah so that has taken a long time And I think only now are we just kind of seeing, you know, that that switch, you know, over the past 10 years, almost, almost 10 years. Why video? And then slowly over the years, it's, it's kind of shifting back to where now, uh, clients are coming to us and saying, here's what we need video. And, you know, and they're talking

about it in the right way. And they, you know, all this kind of stuff. So it's been kind of an interesting process when you look back over almost a decade of that shift in basically content strategy and, and, you know, uh, every brand starting to eventually catch on. Typically, like with any production company, there is usually the core crew of people that you usually go to, to get any production done with you guys having such a huge database of creators and content creators. How do you typically, how transparent are you with the clients about how you source that talent? You know, like for example, you said like some, some client budgets have like around a hundred thousand dollars versus others that are around 2000. So how do you, how do you communicate or have that conversation with them?

Well, it's, it's an interesting one. And I think the difference is, is that we tend to work with clients on an ongoing basis. So we're never on retainer, right? Like, we never have a retainer with a client. But when we start that investment in, you know, why, you know, let's be in the weekly meetings with, with all your agencies or, you know, that kind of thing, the planning meetings, the briefings on here's what's next for next year kind of thing. And so we invest in all that kind of stuff and that allows us to really understand them and their needs. And then that allows us to really understand them and their needs and then that allows us to you know be able to come with a different way of doing things and so one way that comes to light is you know initially when we're working with someone they'll be like okay this is great we love the idea you know let's look at what directors you want to use.

You know, we want to hear about them and all this kind of stuff. And we're like, well, but we don't do that. Right. So we would go and, you know, more present you as either a freelancer or a company like yourselves. Right. as either a freelancer or a company like yourselves, right? So it'd be like, there's, it's not a director led crew with, you know, all this kind of stuff. It can be, and we do do that,

but only for the right ones, right? Like, if you're going out and profiling a small business, you know, for a quick 30 second video, I don't think you need a director, you know, like, or a named director, or you don't certainly don't need to choose between three, right? Like, it's, it's pretty simple. And then so we do a lot of educating about our process. And so part of that is like, know instead of the director we'll talk about like here's some of the stuff that we've done right maybe with that same crew or with another crew but we become notch video becomes the glue right so they're working with us and they know to expect the right results because of us and they trust us to find the right person for the right job and and every time it's a discussion of like you know you're saying you only want to you only have a budget of two thousand dollars to do that so here's a couple options right and we will outline

we can use this freelancer, you know, she just graduated from school, she's hungry, she's got raw talent, we can see it. And we're, you know, 99% sure it's going to kill. If you went to a $5,000 budget, you know, we can show you basically the exact video that you want that these people made. but that's how much it costs for them. Right. And so, you know, we balance it with the client every time. And, and it is a different process. It does take some getting used to, but it just allows your budget to go that much further.

Right. allows your budget to go that much further, right? Versus, you know, square peg, round hole, you know, some giant crew for a tiny thing and, you know, bringing bazookas to a knife fight, that kind of stuff, right? Yeah, it seems like there is a lot of educating that you're doing to your client and it's almost like you're explaining what goes on behind the curtain right because i'm sure a lot of companies like ourselves included we do use freelancers based on the budget that they provide us right but we don't normally tell the client right like it's like we know these freelancers we know they're good for that budget so we just bring them in and we just tell them all right just if they ask you've worked with us

for a long time which they have most of the time anyways, right? But you're kind of going to them and saying, yeah, so based on your budget, these are your options, right? It's like, it's a little different. What are some of the challenges that you found in trying to pitch that? The main challenge is that people don't like change, right? So now you're coming with something that is new. And it's a choice that they've never seen their seniors make, you know, as they were coming up through, they've never seen anyone make this particular choice, or whatever and whenever you ask a human to do something that's like a little different there can be that barrier and and we have seen that um you know and and also part of it is what we like to do is is really think about what the goal of the video is and then sometimes we'll tweak the idea right like we don't like it when people come with a to us with a script yeah because what normally happens there is they're like i know that

i hear that you guys can do um great productions at a great price right which is true and they'll say so here's a script how much would it take How much would it cost for you to make this, right? And, you know, you look at it, and in about two seconds, you're like, well, there's seven locations. There's a car chase and a chopper crashes, you know? And we're like, we can cost this out for you, but it will be the exact same price as any other production house. Like that's not how you save money, right?

How you save money is thinking about why do you have a video with seven locations for, you know, a three piece series that's going to live for a week on YouTube, you know, or wherever, right? Like, your creative is wrong. And so that's where we come in. And that's where we show our most value. And it's funny, because the actual questions about production actually don't even come up, right? Because we've worked through them on the strategy side and on the creative side so that they're excited about the idea they see exactly how it's going to work they know um where it fits in their media plan right and then it's almost like yeah like come on set we'll make sure it's great you know and and all the things but it's we don't usually get that question but who's directing right because by that point we've we've gotten them excited and seeing that oh this is the right idea for this project

you know the cost is x it's a reasonable cost and you know it's all going to go smoothly, which it generally always does. So yeah, I, and I, I don't know if I, if I lost the thread on that one of your question, but I think I got kind of there. It's all good. So essentially you're basically selling them on the value that you guys provide to them and because they love it so much and they see that right from the get-go, they're essentially able to move forward with that project. Do you find, however, though, like because you position yourself also, as you said, like, you know, you guys can provide great work for a great price. Do you feel like a lot of the clients or leads that come to you are kind of shopping around mostly than anything? Or is that a very small part of the leads that come to you are kind of shopping around mostly than anything or is there like a only or is that a very small part of the leads that come in it's a really small part and we tend not to spend a lot of time on that like if like again if someone's coming with a script that

their creative agency wrote and they're like we need to produce this how much would it cost i mean we can cost that out very quickly and we're happy to do that, but I already know that that cost is not going to be any different from the production company that they always use. And they're just kind of fishing to see what's out there. Right. And at the same price, they're going to use the same people that they know and have worked with before. So, and that's fine, right? But we don't tend to spend a lot of time on that. It's not beneficial to us or the client, right? Like we need clients who understand the value and when they do understand the value,

they use us differently, right? So that is where we see our greatest success and um you know vice versa that's when the client benefits the most from what we bring to them you mentioned also well before you mentioned that one of your biggest challenges is having to deal with change uh well having to deal with people that are resistant to change, right? Which I'm assuming would be mostly senior management. So how do you kind of navigate around that challenge? Part of it is waiting for people to retire, but, you know, no. And that's not to say, I mean, some of our greatest proponents are the most senior management, right? And it, you know, I'm just saying that in general, as a, you know, humanity changes heart, right? But when it comes down to the individual, you know, some people, and it's often surprising, like, often, it's actually the most junior people and youngest people who are most resistant, right? I'm not sure why, but they are working within a system.

They've learned that system. They want to implement that system. And, you know, if you're a junior person coming up at a big CPG company, right, what you do in those companies is you rinse and repeat, you play off other people's successes. And so no one has done this before. That becomes very hard, especially as a junior person to say, you know, we're going to go in a different direction on this. I know everything that everyone has ever done has been the other way, but I'm pretty sure this is going to work out great. Right.

That's hard sometimes. So it's all different people. It's all different situations. But it is kind of like that theme that just keeps creeping in, in different places. So, you know, I think it's, I mean, I wasn't really joking when I said like waiting for people to just move on. It's essentially the industry has to mature, right? And recognize that there are different ways of creating content. And, you know, using the tried and true method that has been developed over the years for TV commercials, just does not work for social type content. What would you say is probably one of the most surprising benefits that have come out of you guys pursuing this

venture. Like, like obviously you knew a lot of the benefits going into it and as you went along, but what was one that surprised you? One of the biggest surprises that I, that we had was actually very early on when we came up with the idea for Notch, it was originally supposed to be an online marketplace right so we would get all these amazing creators we would vet every single one of them so that we felt confident that they could deliver and then we would put them in a website where people could browse by location primarily right because that was the biggest thing of i need something quick you know i need a local shooter it doesn It doesn't make all this kind of stuff. So that was kind of our initial thought.

And so when we launched Notch Video, it really was as an online marketplace. And the idea was that all these brands that needed a quick video here, a quick video there, could go on this website, find a reliable video crew and create that video themselves. Right. And that seemed like that was our idea. And like, we're sitting there, we turn it on. We're like, nobody's using it. And the surprise was when we started talking to people was from both sides. So brands were saying that they just didn't have the capability or the experience to work directly with a creator. need a full script for this or you know you need to do an event capture right like the event's already happening you just need someone to capture it and put something cool together

you know even that was too much of a kind of like um clients rely on agencies to deal with that right so um there there was this reticence from the brand side of just feeling like they weren't built to work directly with creators they needed an agency in between to manage everything and make sure that the end product was good what was surprising was uh we also heard that from the crews. And, you know, they were like, dude, we don't want to work with directly with client. That's like not what we want to do. There's a whole bunch of pitfalls. And I mean, it's a whole different skill set, right? You know, I just want to make great video.

I don't want to deal with clients. I want an agency who I can, who is my buffer essentially. And so we very quickly pivoted and became that creative agency in the middle. And that's where we, that was our first kind of our biggest pivot, but that's really what kind of came out that we weren't expecting. Cause we were like, this is a great tool. The problem is that people can't find these crews to do this. Now they can find them. And then you're like, oh, but the system is built in a way that, and, and, you know, people don't have that experience, whether it's from the client side or from the creator side.

And you actually need something in the middle. So what was good about that was we then kind of created what Notch Video is today based on that. Right. And so we don't need a giant company in order to make a high volume of videos, right? And so what we have today is kind of based on that. And that worked out really well. What challenges were you or what stage were you at five years ago when we when we first met versus today? I think the past five years have seen a really big shift in, you know, understanding of video and content strategy in the industry overall, right. From all sides. And, you know, five years ago,

we were still kind of in the thick of it of like pushing it. Like don't just do a TV commercial that's gonna run for three months take that budget and do weekly videos that you know are responsive to what's happening at that time you know and and run them for you know throughout ongoing uh or something like that and you know that's what's really changed it's kind of been like you know one of those curves and it kind of starts slow but it's kind of that past five years has probably just um it's almost kind of relief right because we don't have to now go out.

We're now listening to people ask us for the right stuff. I do want to talk to you a bit more about your business as a whole. First of all, how did you meet Yotam, your partner? That was, I mean, it's all about contacts, right? So that was a former colleague introduced us when I was working at Sid Lee. And I met him, I remember meeting him for a coffee outside at Ball Sacks in the distillery outside the Sid Lee office. And I went over and there's this guy and he's got this like three piece suit on. And I'm like, is this the guy? You know, and so we sit guy and he's got this like three-piece suit on and I'm like is this a guy

you know and so we sit down and we talk and he had such an interesting story his background is amazing and that was part of it which we didn't I didn't recognize right then but it was such an interesting background and and, I come from the PR and marketing side, and I love making films. Yotam comes from a true film background, but he loves marketing, right? So we've both had to learn the other person's kind of skills. So we complemented each other very well right from the start. But yeah, so it was kind of set up. It was a favor. I met with him, we had a coffee and then

I was like, okay, that's great. And as I was walking back, cause basically he was looking to see what, you know, what would a role for him be at an ad agency and in the meantime I'm like you know I'm walking back to uh work and I'm like dude there's no job for you you're like um you know ad agencies talk a great game and and they are truly amazingly creative and the stuff that comes out of them is like magical sometimes, right? But it is really hard to go in as a person with a unusual skill set and think that that's just gonna, you know, everyone's gonna love it. It's the same thing as anywhere else. People, people get used to the process. And if you tell them to go in a different direction, or ask them to go in

a different direction, it's hard for them. So I so i was kind of like well that's never going to work and then i started talking to uh we have two other partners uh maya and justin who were my former bosses at high road and so we had started talking so So then I introduced, I was like, I think you guys should meet Yotam, this guy. And that's kind of where it started rolling. And then the four of us were like, I think we got something here. Let's try this. Who did you go to first? Did you first have the idea for Notch initially?

And did you first go to your bosses or did you go to Yotam first? That you first have the idea for Notch initially? And did you first go to your bosses? Or did you go to Yotam first? That's a great question. I mean, I think at that point, we had, oh, that was another interesting thing. You know, the whole ad agency game of like, I think it was like on a weekend and Sid Lee lost their biggest client the the client called someone on a Saturday and said we're done you're no longer our agency as of Monday right and so I got let go with I don't know like four or five hundred other people you, like, and that's what happens, right? In agency world, you lose a big account like that. You know, there's a lot of people who work only on that

account. And you can't just put the, you know, a building full of people on another account, right? So I had been just freelancing for, I don't know, three or four months at that point. But that whole time, you know, we had all been talking and just kind of thinking. And it was in better times when we could go to a bar and just like sit down, have a couple drinks and, you know, toss around ideas and stuff. And, you know, it was an interesting time. I, I think, you know, part of it was we always knew was content because, you know of, of how we had seen that work through high road through,

through first PR then social, then digital, you know, we were all very interested in how content is being created and, and new ways of doing this. So it was always along those lines. I'm sure there were some great ideas that never made it, but probably for the best. But yeah, it was probably over the course of six months-ish, where the idea just started to coalesce, and bringing Yodin was one of those moments where you're just like, oh, that, you know, like, a little switch goes off, and you're like, oh, shit, you you know I think we got something so um not that I don't think I ever actually said I think we got something until like years later when I could feel very secure about saying that but yeah it's you know it's uh kind of a nerve-wracking process and you're you feel

like you're guessing um especially if you're trying to do something that's a bit different, right? So yeah, it was a long process that just involved a lot of conversations and no bad ideas, right? Yeah, you mentioned like with any business, when you start out, you're always trying to figure out

how you can get a lead generation model to kind of start bringing in business. And you mentioned that in the beginning, it was more so you had to educate a lot of the people that you were approaching and a lot of the clients that were coming in. Do you feel like after having done this now for about eight or nine years, do you feel like it's kind of flipped a little bit now where it's a lot of people coming to you mostly rather than you needing to go out and educate other people? Yeah. I mean, I think there's two things there, right? Like the education part is not necessarily about new biz, right? Um, that can be more about actual projects and what direction you want to go with that project uh i think more from the new biz side um you know we we have certainly felt that where um we were lucky to have some early clients that we still work with now and i think those are the types of clients that really allow you to grow and test and try things. And, you know, it also gives you a fairly steady revenue stream, which, you know, gives you a little bit of leeway as far as paying everyone salaries and rent and all that kind of stuff.

everyone's salaries and rent and all that kind of stuff. But certainly over time, you do start to see this where, you know, it's more incoming calls and outgoing, right? And it's really satisfying, I guess, when that starts to happen. And it happens so slowly, you know, there'll be times when you and I are talking and it's like does it feel like we're not doing as many you know calls and you realize like oh we haven't done one in a year but we haven't even kind of it hasn't even you know sunk in because you're still working and doing stuff and you realize I think it's changed now kind of thing. So it's kind of, yeah, it's a nice place to hit. I mean, it certainly does not mean that you get to relax or, you know,

every, every pitch is competitive. You know, you got to keep that edge year after year. And I think the most important thing that I've learned is you need to search out the right opportunities for you I mean you might get super lucky and you know shit lands in your lap and it's the thing that's perfect or whatever but just always being out there always kind of hustling and you never know where that perfect next project is going to come from so um yeah it's it's nice when you don't have to worry about it as much but it's weird because you're kind of like actually I want to worry about it because I want to get these like amazing projects not just

any projects so what was the one moment uh in your in not just history that that really changed things for you guys well i think it was when we when we recognized that we could actually have a full service agency right or that we could be a full service agency versus you know launching an online marketplace where people could connect with video creators that was such a huge shift where we almost didn't do it because it's like well a there's a lot of agencies already that provide strategy and creative and, you know, like all that kind of stuff, but also it was like, you know, do we want to do that? You know?

So it was such a shift for the company and we needed to, to feel, to be really excited about what that meant in order to move it forward. to be really excited about what that meant in order to move it forward. But I can't imagine what it would have been without that. And what we've become is so much more than just a database, right? So I think that was the biggest point for us that made the biggest difference. What is one thing that you do to kind of engage your roster of creators? Because, I mean, like any agency, you always have sometimes your go-to people that you will reach out to for certain types of projects, whereas other ones you only call them up for projects, you know, once in a few months, kind of something like that. So how do you kind of maintain, you know, that communication, because you have to also still be confident, you know,

that you can pick up the phone and call them? Absolutely. Yeah, I, I mean, that's, that's been something that we've had to be really cognizant of on an ongoing basis right and I and to be honest I don't think we've done as good a job as we could part of it is just getting busy with actually doing projects and you know you got to pay the bills so you kind of do that but we have done things like quarterly meetup where we do it in person. And it's just simple. It's, you know, free beer, pizza, nothing crazy. But we'll ask four or five creators to come and show a couple of examples of stuff that they've worked on. And whoever's owning that internally, it's very fun because you get to kind of curate this experience. And, you know, it's never anything big. I think we limit it to two minutes. So if you have a long piece, you just got to cut it down. But that's, you know, in the same way that we are, it's we want this to be quick, but informative and fun, right like uh in the same way and so we'll invite um

the network and just say hey come by you know have a drink and watch some of your fellow creators that's actually been the most fun one for me um what i enjoy about that is I think this group of or sorry I think that creators um tend to to your point work with the same people a lot right and it's amazing like even just looking at Toronto when you look at the variety of creators out there and the different talents and and different focus and you know what is someone who only ever does music videos what the what can they learn from someone who only does mini docs or you know or whatever and I don't think that there's enough of those opportunities for people to kind of meet

each other. So that's been the main thing. And very fun when we do it. We haven't been great at it, because it is a chunk of time, and we're always busy, right? So I would love to do more of that. And then, of course, social, just trying to keep channels updated. It's funny because, you know, you're always giving brands recommendations about what they should do. And then you realize, like, you haven't been doing that yourself on your own channels because just time or whatever. But, yeah, I think that's a really important part. And for us as a group of producers, it's great for us to always be meeting new people, you know, looking at what people are doing and keeping excited about what's possible. You know, I think we've owned every single one of the Insta360 cameras that's come out, you know, because it's like, guys, you can do 360 on

your phone, and it's pretty impressive, right? And you kind of learn how to use that camera. And you start thinking about things in a 360 way instead of like you know a normal film way and all of a sudden someone comes a brand comes and you're like why don't we do this in 360 now we're not going to shoot it on an insta 360 camera or like a you know consumer camera but that allows us to help get the client to the right place where they want it. And then it helps us find the right people to make it. And it helps us have a vision of what we want. Right. Which is more than just a 360 video. It's like, what is that 360 video?

It's a new kind of language. Right. And so just staying excited about all these things and talking to as many people as we can is really important. So I just have two other quick questions I wanted to first touch on this topic. So how big has your roster kind of gotten up until this point? Obviously, after nine years, you probably will have gotten a really massive one at this point. And if I was a young creator that wanted to kind of break out into the notch space, what would I have to do to kind of stand out above the rest? Hmm. That's a good one. First off, right now, our roster is over 2000. And it's,

it's interesting, because we've had periods of big growth, but we're not actually looking for volume, right? We are covered in basically every place in North America. If someone wanted to shoot somewhere tomorrow, we could figure it out, right? And that was kind of a baseline for us where we felt confident, like you bring us anything, we can figure it out. But it's also important to have, it's more quality over quantity. So yeah, so that's where we are. And right now we're not actively looking for people because we found actually creators are just putting their own profiles on, right?

Which is what we wanted. So we don't have to do as much outgoing outreach that way either. up and coming creator goes um i i think it's just having conversations and not being afraid to ask questions or reach out you know um i'm always or i'm often surprised that i don't hear from people right um maybe i'll meet them, but then they won't come back. And sometimes in that first meeting, I'll say, you know, you're the type of creators that we're looking for. And we always have jobs coming in and who knows, whatever. But then I think there's a lot of like sitting back and waiting. Yeah, I think being proactive is probably the most important thing um and it's funny because again it's not what you signed up to do to be to create

beautiful video right your craft is the video but you got to get the jobs and the right jobs. So I would say just being proactive is the most important thing. So you said that a lot of the, a lot of the creators, they make their own profiles on, on notch video. So is it kind of like something where they can, anyone can pretty much sign up for, or is it kind of like a curation process where before they can be within Notch, they have to kind of at least maybe meet with one of your producers that kind of sign off as like, okay, these guys, you know, they may be new, but, you know, there's potential here, whereas there's other ones where these guys are very experienced. Is there a very strict curation now? It's, I mean, I wouldn't call anything when we do super strict.

So, um, but essentially, um, yeah, what happens is, um, people, anyone can, uh, create a profile. It's, it's not intensive, right? It's, it's a fairly basic profile. Um, and so when that gets finished internally we get a note that you know profile has been completed and then it goes in now it's time for us to review nothing goes public nobody can see that profile until we have actually well it's not physical because we don't have a switch, but actually turned it on. Right. So that I think is is the main thing. And so and that process internally on our end can be very simple. Right. If we check out the profile, maybe they've got a, you know, very extensive website of their own already or their reel is so killer although if it's that killer then we're kind of like uh you know we need to know more um you know or whatever the case may be like we get sometimes we look at a profile do a quick check and it feels great and

we're like absolutely um sometimes it's a conversation sometimes it's an email sometimes it's a phone call um you know because um it's so spread out uh there wasn't there's never been a lot of in person unless you happen to be in Toronto, right? So we're not traveling to meet new crews necessarily. But yeah, it's amazing how much you can find out through those conversations. And, you know, as your network grows, you also have the benefit of having other people you trust who may know them or someone who knows them and can vouch or right like it kind of builds on itself a little bit so yeah it's um it's there aren't you know strict guidelines except that we need to feel comfortable that if someone did go on the site and contact

them they're going to be able to get a good video out of it so i want to touch on partnerships uh again so i actually thought it was just you and yotam but there's actually four people in total yeah yeah uh yote and i are the kind of working part of it and uh my and justin are actually the um co-owners of north strategic so that's a PR and social and influencer agency. And so that's their main focus on a day to day. And Yot and I are focused on Notch Video. So I'm a little confused. Are they, so they're co-partners, they're partners with you guys, but they're running the, is it an ad agency? Is it like two agencies working together kind of agreement that you guys have created?

They are separate companies, but they are both owned by Maya and Justin's Holdco, essentially. So they are separate companies, but Maya and Justin are owners in both. Okay. And Yot and I are owners in notch right oh I see okay mm-hmm so how do you guys kind of because they are also owners in your in your business is there a lot of cross-branding between the two agencies you know like if you need PR and strategy is that where that arm of the business comes in for a notch? A hundred percent. Yeah. And when we worked in an office, we shared offices, right? We have our own distinct space, but it is essentially one office.

And that extends to another agency called MSL, another PR agency as well. There's three agencies in this single office space. So yeah, and that was for Yot and I, part of the benefit of pairing up with Maya and Justin was they essentially, or North Strategic essentially acted as a great feeder system for business, right? So that alleviated a lot of like, you know, new biz chasing and we could focus more on the work when we knew that North Strategic and all their clients, they had this resource that they could go to, you know, and so they did. And we were able to get work out of that. So and obviously, I mean, that's part of it. Right. And what we had all seen working together for all these years was how important content was to, you know, a PR agency and vice

versa. So I think we actually measured it once. And, you know, we talked about, you know, because it's kind of obvious, like, they have their PR clients who need a video, and we get to make a video or whatever, right? Like, that's a no brainer. But it's actually really interesting because the PR agency or business grows when you have this content capability. Their accounts actually get bigger because they can bring in a more 360 kind of viewpoint to stuff, you know, and all this kind of stuff.

So their accounts actually do grow on the PR side, because of this. So and that's something that we've looked at closely over the years. And it's been interesting to see that. So you essentially kind of incubated yourselves from the very beginning within a PR strategy agency. And that's what kind of launched you guys to have such a huge platform so early on, like any production company that starts out nowadays, or even like 5-10 years ago, it's difficult to get a good footing within the first one to three years. But because you guys managed to position yourselves like that, it just alleviated a lot of the initial challenges and

pitfalls that come with any type of new business. Correct. Yeah. And it was, I mean, it's a different kind of situation because, I mean, Maya, Justin and I had worked together for 10 years, right, on the PR side. And I was, you know, I was doing a lot of, of this stuff as part of High Road. And so, of this stuff as part of High Road. And so, you know, when they started North Strategic, you know, that was when this conversation started about what's the content story here. And then it's, you know, it was, it's, it was big enough and different enough to be its own company. And that was important, right? We did not want to be a division of some agency, whether it's a creative agency or a PR agency or whatever. We need to, we needed to be a true creative agency on our own right. And so that's why we are technically separate. And, you know, it allowed it allowed us to draw those lines so that

we could focus on building this specific expertise and not worrying about maybe we should spend more time on the PR side because we want to make sure that business continues, whatever. That's why it was important to have it separate. And what have, what have been some of the challenges in growing notch over the years? Let's see. I mean, just some of them. I mean, I mean, I think the first one was the education side as far as just trying to get people to do things differently um it was surprising when we would come in and and we're showing

results like it's this is not just guests we're like here's what we would produce the type of video of this caliber at this price and we would lose to something that was like two or three times more expensive but you know it was the it was the way that it had always been done right and we were like how can you how can you make that decision you know we're showing you you know that we can do this at this price in this way. You see what we do. It's the same quality, but still people would go there. So there was a lot of like, that was, I think, a hard part of like figuring out where you

fit in the industry and what those opportunities really were for you, identifying them and then being more specific about what you're spending your time and effort on. I think interestingly too, one of the harder things that has kind of come through is because we are different, you know, in the jobs that we ask people to do. We call the position a producer, but it's not just a producer. Like there is the producer side of it, but our expectation is, you know,

that a single person can do strategy, creative, client management management and then produce the actual video using our distributed network right and that is a model that sounds crazy to a lot of people because that is not what you would see in a traditional creative agency those are all different specialties, right? And you have actually teams of each one, you know, on a specific account. But it is actually the model of the PR world. Wow. So in PR, that is what you do.

You manage the client, do all the client services stuff. You write the strategy, you come up with the ideas, and then you go out and make it happen, whatever that may be, right? And that was, I think, what was interesting in my background, because I saw that as totally doable, you know? For the most part, you don't need a team of strategists and a team of creatives to come up with an idea that needs to answer a specific, you know, business need. There are certainly times when you need that, you know, there's like overall brand stuff at a very high level, you know,

big, big things you want to have all that manpower on, but for the more kind of day to day stuff, you don't need all that. And by not having that, you can move so much more quickly and efficiently. So that has been a challenge for us of, you know, we will look for a producer, and we get a lot of very traditional producer type people. And then it's like trying to figure out, well, you know, client management is a whole different thing. And it's, you know, can be tough, uh, strategy. Maybe nobody's ever asked you for that before, you know, or creative, you get to come up with the idea so you

kind of got to look for the right person because there is not really that role and so um i i think that's been um an interesting challenge but also such a rewarding one because you find these people and they just kind of blossom, right? Like the producer part is, you know, can be fairly straightforward, right? Here's the job that we have to do. Here's, you know, I'm gonna find a crew to do it. I'm gonna, you know, work through all the logistics, you know, shoot day, organize that, be on set, and then manage post.

But, you know, for the right person, it's so rewarding to have all the, to do all that, but the end product to be the idea that you thought of in the first place, or, you know, like, based on a strategy that you suggested, or an insight that you were like, oh, that makes sense for this company or whatever. Right. So, yeah, that's been a really rewarding part, but also challenging over the years. Yeah. I was going to ask you about that because one person within that production has so many different roles and responsibilities i was going to ask like how do you typically go about finding the right types of people because you know maybe they might be really good in one certain skill set versus the other uh is there a kind of system within notch where you teach certain skill sets to these people

because it's really hard to find someone that has it all, you know, that those people don't exist at the end of the day, at least in the market, or at least they're probably running their own business at that point. So are there some? It's a great point. And again, we drew from the PR industry for, for how to manage that. And essentially what that is, is always be promoting from within. So you want your people to continue to grow and then you bring new people in at the junior level, right? And so we tend to look for people who are producers, right?

They understand all the things that go into that, but want more essentially. and so it's a lot of those conversations about you know what do you what do you want to be versus what you're doing right now and and that kind of stuff but i think it's really important to have that system in place and then internally you want you need your teams to be so supportive of each other and you need the senior level to be helping to educate the junior level coming up so I mean which is how it works anywhere it's just a different system and so but once you get enough people doing that, it just starts to work.

Right. Um, and you know, the culture in the office and, and all that kind of stuff is really important because of that. Um, but again, that is a tried and true approach, uh, from the PR industry. Just, it's surprising for people and it feels a little weird because it's not in the advertising. Very different. You know, creative agencies. So yeah, it's been interesting, but you do need to have

that process in place. You want junior people coming in, learning and growing essentially. What are some of the next steps for Nodge? Um, I mean, outside of like absolute world domination, uh, you know, I mean, I, I think that's something that we always talk about. Right. Um, and you know, I talked about we did we did pivot once like an actual pivot, but realistically, it's like, you know, 10 years of micro pivots, like every week, we're like, you know, what's next? What's next? And I think it's more just that attitude. A lot of what we talk about is setting ourselves up for success, right? So you want to stay ahead of the trends, where things are going, and be ready to change. So, you know, it's, I don't know.

I think like growth is not a challenge. I think it's a very scalable business. uh not a challenge i think it's a very scalable business um you know we're we've started to do more and more work in the u.s which is obviously just a big market that opens up and yeah uh who knows but um the good thing is and one of the things that we've also always come back to is like, people love video. Like people love watching video. I don't know about you, but my house, the number of screens is ludicrous from little screens to big screens, but it's all content.

It's all stories, you know? I don't think that's going away. Sure, there may eventually be some, you know, changes, but at the heart of it is storytelling with a visual element. Right. And mean, obviously, right now with COVID, there's been a huge shift. And where do you think this, the content industry is going to be moving towards? COVID has not been great for us. We had to do layoffs for the first time in our history, you know, like that was tough. Right. But we've seen it turn. And I think there was an initial reaction among brands and businesses about like tightening everything.

And I think like people are recognizing even more so the power of video as far as a tool to help promote or educate people about your business. And one of the things that I do think is, you know, obviously this is not a great time at all but I I think actually in five years our business will actually be further ahead than if COVID had never happened just in the sense of it actually forced a huge change in how people work I mean how people work. I mean, like, right, this, otherwise, we'd be meeting in a bar or something, right, or having a drink. Now we're doing it on a zoom call, whatever. But in the same way, like,

every single person in business is now infinitely more comfortable with video chat, right? Like that's a big change. And when the necessity goes away, it's probably not going to drop down to pre-COVID numbers of video meetings, right? And I think that's the same way that we're seeing on the video side is people recognizing the power. And I, and what was really great about it was it forced people to, if they needed content to do it differently. videos that we were doing for Google that were like set, you know, and it was all these heads of companies talking about, you know, these crazy things, nothing too nuts, like interview style, you know, whatever. And then this hits and it's like quickly pivot. Here's how we could do a treatment using self-shot video, all that kind of stuff. That would never have been an option before, right? But it's now an experience that the team at Google has had, and they recognize actually it was less expensive and audience doesn't care. and audience doesn't care. I mean, you know, there's, there's ways to build it so that if that it is on brand for Google, you know, and it conveys the same information. And, uh, yeah,

I think the, the biggest thing is brands thinking of themselves when they see a video versus audience expectations. I mean, think about what everyone watches as far as video goes. Yes, TV shows, movies, all that kind of stuff. But what is the most engaging? It's the terribleness of tiktok it's you know the worst handheld shot phone footage but it's the right moment right like nobody cares how bad it looks oh you know i don't know how i shot it in 360p and you know and i can barely see it but it's my favorite video kind of thing right so i think that it is it's real this time has forced people to do stuff differently and in a way that is beneficial to what what we do so i guess i i just want to end it off with uh what does the what does notch mean like how did you guys come up with the name yeah oh notch uh this is a it's an interesting one i guess um part of what we felt about uh notch video or the unnamed company at that point was this sense of exploration and you know

beginnings but that exploration part of people going into the unknown and trying trying to do something a bit different so we got inspired um and north strategic was already a thing at this point so there was a little bit you know north strategic is very like feels canada and all that kind of stuff so we got excited about float planes and bush planes you know like because those were the those were the guys that were flying those things into these remote places it was often the one thing that connected that place to the outside world we felt like our videos were the one thing that could you know like there was just all this kind of stuff that was fun and exciting at the time and then

so we're looking at it we actually had a float plane and a logo at the start but there's this one thing when you take off on I can't remember which model it was but it's kind of the classic bush plane um and you pull the lever up uh it's measured in notches and so when you go it was like you want to get it to 10 notches but then as soon as you hit that speed then you crank it to 20 notches and that's your takeoff and allows you just to clear the tree line you know or whatever so uh and we just like this idea of you know the mechanical part of it in a way I don't know anyway so that's where notch came from it was pretty funny because we went through this whole process and you know it was very fun we got to this place we got excited we made notch and then like the first

thing someone said to us oh yeah i've worked with you before notch color right and there's a color house that was called notch as well but uh potential new collaborations or what it was interesting we're like and we had done searches on the name and because you got to do all that stuff right like but we had been looking at notch video as a name and that was all clear simple yeah it was pretty funny that's great and honestly thanks again for joining us and and sharing your experience with notch video and kind of how you came into the industry, how you're revolutionizing it in a way right now. But thanks again for joining us on Creatives Grab Coffee. I guess we'll see you again in another five years, right?

Sooner than that. For sure. Thank you, Ian. Take care. soon for sure all right thank you guys thank you again take care thank you for tuning into the creatives grab coffee podcast you can find us on spotify youtube instagram and linkedin let us know if there are any topics you would like for us to