Creatives Grab Coffee - Mastering Your Niche (ft. KGB Productions) #91

Episode Date: April 7, 2025

In this episode of Creatives Grab Coffee, Chris Kitchen from KGB Productions (Jackson Hole, Wyoming) shares valuable insights on building a successful video production business by mastering your niche. Chris dives into his journey from creating action sports films to running a commercial production company, emphasizing the importance of passion projects, leveraging personal networks, and staying creatively challenged. He offers practical advice on navigating client relationships, managing budgets, and expanding into new markets through targeted outreach and strategic spec work. This episode is packed with actionable strategies and relatable experiences for marketers and filmmakers striving to grow their creative businesses.TIMESTAMPS00:00 - Episode Introduction and Guest Welcome00:30 - Guest Bio: Chris Kitchen from KGB Productions00:43 - Getting started in action sports filmmaking02:09 - Transitioning from ski films to commercial video production05:06 - Leveraging relationships and targeted outreach to build clientele07:21 - Strategies for business development and marketing outreach10:02 - Expanding your niche without losing your creative passion13:28 - Balancing direct clients versus ad agency relationships16:30 - Updating the website to attract new business and opportunities21:32 - Tips for growing and expanding within your niche23:52 - Importance of passion projects for portfolio development27:26 - Team structure and managing freelance crews31:21 - Navigating a partnership split amicably34:39 - Managing client relationships during a business transition38:18 - Ethical freelancing and respecting production company relationships41:36 - Balancing client demands with business growth45:01 - Transparency in budgeting and client communications51:15 - The hidden costs of pitching and creating project proposals55:49 - Long-term vision for KGB Productions and future goals56:53 - Reflecting on passion, motivation, and longevity in filmmaking01:02:28 - Closing remarks and key advice for aspiring filmmakersSPONSORS:Canada Film Equipment: www.CanadaFilmEquipment.comAudio Process: www.Audioprocess.ca🎵 Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/2vHd8BdbkMQITFZmDJ0bo9🍏 Apple: https://podcasts.apple.com/ca/podcast/creatives-grab-coffee/id1530864140 🎞️Produced by LAPSE PRODUCTIONS – https://www.lapseproductions.comTo learn more about the show, visit: https://www.creativesgrabcoffee.com/

recording. So strange. Chris, give me some light. Okay, here we are talking. I am talking here. It says actual recording is higher than it looks. So that's good to know. Yeah. Um. We'll leave it at that. Yep. And then I'm just trying to change my... Hey guys, welcome to the show. Today we got Chris Kitchen from Jackson Hole, Wyoming. Chris, welcome to the show. Yeah, thanks for having me.

So Chris, for those of you that don't know, runs a company called KGB Productions. So I guess why don't you just tell us a little bit about how you got into the video scene and also a little bit about your company. Yeah. I kind of got into the video scene and also a little bit about your company. Yeah, I kind of got into the video scene. Growing up in New England, I was always really into skiing and outdoor sports and adventure. So when I went to college out in Washington state, they had a really small video program.

It was a liberal arts school. But you could rent cameras from the college for free. And they had editing software and all that. So me and my buddies just started kind of doing that, filming ourselves skiing and doing some other sports and making little films about it. And then after school, I moved to Jackson, Wyoming, worked a bunch of odd jobs, started filming in the action sports world just for myself and for some of the other companies around here.

And then that just kind of evolved into, kind of a full-scale commercial production company, which we are now, which I'd say about 50% of our work is outdoor kind of sports related natures. And then the other is, straight commercial stuff, whether that's for a beverage company, Wyoming whiskey, or vehicle stuff, or corporate stuff and kind of local and regional advertisement. But our focus is, you know, it's kind of has been the outdoors and adventure sports for

sure. Nice. And yeah, I remember you were telling me that you guys wanted to get into the filmmaking scene when you first started and that's How you guys are doing all those ski videos, right? Yeah, totally and that was kind of the model of that time This is crazy. It was like before YouTube was even thing in 2005 where you would like Make a ski movie or a mountain bike movie print it film it all year edit it all summer in the fall

You would release a DVD of it and then that film would go on tour. So the first couple years that's what we did. We would make this, we would buy 10,000 DVDs or 15,000 DVDs and hope we could sell them online. And then we would do little film tours at different mountain towns across the West. And those were always the best

because you'd get together and sometimes there'd be 50 people there, sometimes there'll be 500. You're all kind of watching these like action sports movies kind of getting you excited about the season. You know slowly that evolved and you know the media environment started changing and then we kind of realized okay hey we don't need to put all our eggs in one basket and spend our entire time making this one 45 minute long sports film. We can do all these little side projects. We can do short edits. Brands need this stuff. Companies need this

stuff and we can still do our kind of sports films. So then they kind of like evolve from there. But very non-traditional. I in my business part of the time had no formal training. I have a geology degree. He has a politics degree. Took some like film classes in school, figure that kind of out, and then just kind of mostly self-taught ourselves to just kind of see what was out there and how it worked. And then, you know, slowly after working odd jobs for four or five years, we were like, hey, I think if we commit to this, we could kind of like do some of this commercial stuff. We did used to do weddings back in the day, which I don't do anymore, thankfully. But side note, I will say like as far as like

learning your camera, being ready for the moment and being ready to go, I still think weddings are the best and that is being a great filmmaker because it's like it's on that best man might say he's going to get up and do speech at five. It's 450 and he gets up like you got to be on. So anyways, that's a total side note. But yeah, eventually it kind of became something where we're like, okay, we can make this a career and let's try to figure that out and go from there. There's a lot of people we've spoken to that got their start doing sports of some kind. They started, you know, they were maybe skaters or whatnot. And then they're, they were just grabbingaters or whatnot. And then they were just grabbing video of that.

And then it just transitioned into becoming a videographer and then getting to become a video producer at that stage. So it's cool to see that you also had a similar path. And to kind of follow up on that, like, did you like having done all those like kind of action sports stuff, and we noticed that on your portfolio, that is a lot of your portfolio in terms of outdoor content and things like that, did you kind of start targeting specific clients

that in that space because you had that portfolio, or was it just kind of like you created the content and then people found you and started reaching out to you? What was that kind of transition like for you? A little bit of both. You know, I would say there's definitely brands or companies that we would see that were out there that we wanted to target and then other ones would come towards us.

And I would still say that's still my model is right. Like what I call this editorial content, story based. There's a bunch of brands or distribution networks that we target that we say, hey we've got this great idea about this hunter or about the skier, about this fisherman, let's raise some money and tell a branded content story about it. Whereas also yeah other people kind of see our work, you know friends are friends, people start seeing you get recommended. We started doing a lot of work for Jackson Hole Mountain

store, which is a big ski area in town. And that ended up connecting us with a bunch of athletes that then ended up connecting us with a bunch of the different brands that the athletes represent and work for. And then you start getting those marketing people's contacts, and they're like, hey, we liked your little ski movie idea, but we actually have this idea for this project. And you're like, yeah, sure, of course we'll do that.

And so yeah, kind of to answer that question, a little bit of both. And I would still say, even though I run this company, I always joke that I'm just a glorified freelancer. I spend like half my job is getting more jobs for me and the couple of guys that work with me. It's funny, glorified freelancer. I guess, yeah, we're everyone in this industry.

When you break it down, like we really are just glorified freelancers. Just under a company name, but still with the same kind of hustle mentality and work ethic, you know, it's the same thing. Instead of just under your name, it's under an overall umbrella kind of name, right? Just have higher overhead.

Yeah, much higher overhead. But But you know you gotta hustle up work I don't know that many people in this industry that just are like just sitting at the computer jobs are just coming in and coming in You know everybody's I even think if you're a huge commercial production studio working with those huge ad agencies You're still kind of hustling up work and working with relationships with brands and agencies and all that to kind of keep that workflow. So on that note then, what do you do in terms of hustling for work? Like are you relying on SEO,

like going out to networking events, cold calling clients or leads? That's a good question. I wish I knew the magic answer to that. We do a combo of both. I think especially in the outdoor and adventure industry we're pretty established. I stay in touch with all different marketing directors that tend to move around between different companies. Definitely do a lot of outreach, do a newsletter we send out. I've gone back and forward with having agents or agencies try to help out with, you know, not the greatest success, I

would say. It seems like a lot of our best stuff comes from me just leveraging connections that I made and people I met along the way. And you know, there is those people that see your work that kind of reach out to you. But I think a lot of it is just developing relationships in the community and targeting what kind of client you want. We were all outdoors forever and we were kind of pigeonholed into that. And now I've been doing a bunch more beverage stuff, which I really enjoy. One because different clientele, different creative, and it's more challenging, you know, like I don't want a sound area,

but like for me to go out and shoot skiing, I've shot there for 25 years, it's like, it's still fun, it's still joy, but it's not like extremely challenging. Whereas, you know, when we're doing these beverage brands, now it's like, how are we gonna light this? How are we gonna pour that shot? You know, and just like, I think as a creative,

you always wanna kind of expand. And I got into the industry because I love skiing and fishing and outdoors. And I felt like nobody was really portraying that in a way that resonated with me and my group of friends. But then once you start getting involved in this craft, it just evolves. And I love the craft of filmmaking and telling a story

almost more than what the story is, if that makes sense. Yeah, you definitely want a little change of kind of work more than what the story is, if that makes sense. Yeah, you definitely want a little change of kind of work every now and then, especially if you've been doing a lot of the same types of projects or clientele or like specific industries, you're gonna wanna like kind of change it up a little bit and whatever it might be that you switch over to sometimes, you know, it's exciting because it's new.

So you're flexing your creativity muscles a little bit more and That's like something Dario and I are trying to kind of explore a bit more of this year because we're we mostly do a lot of like finance sector based clients and software companies But What was sorry I kind of like blanked on the question that I can I can continue it because what I want to bring up Was a lot of people we've had a lot of guests recently that keep reiterating that it's good to focus on a niche

try to figure out your niche you have a niche you're well developed within your niche but you're trying to pivot to another one so do you want to talk a bit more about that yeah that's interesting I mean I think we're always going to be in action sports and outdoors, and that's just kind of our niche in which we're pigeonholed into. And I do enjoy that. But yeah, I just think, you know,

it's exciting to get out there and do different things. And there's a lot of crossover. And I think people are starting to realize, which is the media landscape. You want somebody that's maybe thinking outside the box that's not in that industry. And I will say I've done this because we work on big crews, we work on small crews, but like when we're

on these big commercial crews, everyone's like, man, your guys, your crew is like, works super hard, they seem to know all the different jobs, they crush it. I think like being a sports and specifically snow sports person to start out with there are just so many variables So many things you have to be good at that when you get on like a big commercial set and your only focus is Like directing or a GP or a scene. It's like your dial It's like everything seems easier when you don't have howling wind and snow coming at you But I will say there has been some trials and tribulations It's hard like I always joke like I could make you the best napkin commercial you've ever seen,

but I've never made one. So no agency is going to trust me to do that because they've never seen that I've made something similar to that. So it has been a little bit of a trial and tribulation to get into. I've done a handful of spec shoots where we just go out and they're like, okay, we want to target this industry, whether it's vehicles or beverage. And luckily, you know, we have this brand, Wyoming Whiskey, that we work with forever. And they'll let us do some experimental shoots at their place.

But, you know, part of that is it's a leap of faith, right? It's like to get into another niche, we've had to do some just spec work and just show people that we can do it. Or, you know, hopefully there's some brand managers out there and media people that understand that, hey, if this person has the creative brain and the structure and has done, you know, a North Face holiday campaign, they could probably do my, you know, shoelace campaign. But yeah, the niche thing is hard.

It's funny that people said that. I was told that too, to stick to your niche, stick to your niche, but then it's just like, I wanted to expand out, you know? And like my primary thing is like, I could have a lot more commercial work and a lot different things if I wanted to move to like an LA, New York or Austin market.

But you know, I got into this originally because I love the outdoors and I love where I live. And so for me, it's kind of primary now. It's like, how can I continue to love the outdoors and work in it? How can I afford to live in Jackson Hole, Wyoming for the rest of my life? And how can I be creatively motivated?

And if that means sometimes I have to take a little bit of a pay cut, or it takes a little more effort to get into a niche industry, I think it's worth it. Or otherwise, it's just a job that you're bored coming to like half of the world here. I don't think that's why it or otherwise. Otherwise it's just a job that you're bored coming to like half of the world here. I don't think that's why we get into media.

I think it makes sense. I feel like with people like us, we're to get into this type of business, you have to be a particular type of person. And I think we constantly need something new and exciting to keep our attention. Otherwise, we start to get bored and we start to lose the passion for things. So it makes sense that after you've kind of like cemented your reputation, your portfolio, your skill set at one niche, you're already looking for what's next.

What's coming next. Right. Because otherwise, like, yeah, you're right. You'll get bored and like the passion won't be there anymore. And it'll feel just like a, you're right. You'll get bored and like the passion won't be there anymore and it'll feel just like a a desk job, right And to kind of follow up on that like because you're trying to kind of like expand What you're with the types of projects that you're doing Do you mostly focus with direct to client type projects or are you focusing on building relationships with certain?

uh ad agencies in in the space where you get a lot of your work? Because I was talking to actually a past guest recently and they were explaining how because they're trying to focus more on commercials, they're mostly networking with people that work at different ad agencies so that they can get more of that type of work from there. So kind of what is it more for you like ad agency or direct to client? A little bit both. I mean, for the bigger commercial stuff is definitely ad agencies and it's just breaking in with those people and emailing them. And, you know, I was just in Colorado on a shoot, we had to do an interview in Denver. And then there were like three or four agencies that I'd

been like emailing with and I just like popped in, hey, you know, a couple of them spent 10 minutes meeting with me. One person was like, hey, we don't have the time. I know you emailed me yesterday, but I think it's just, you know, pounding that pavement. And if you know, one out of four of those agencies come through, they'll may be able to find something for you. But it's also difficult too, you know, because like some brands, like it's crazy, all these brands, right? Like a lot of them sub stuff out to like agencies,

but then a lot to in-house too. So like the North Face, for example, have done a bunch of work with like, sometimes we're working directly with them. Sometimes we're working with our ad agency. Sometimes they've recommended us to their ad agency. Sometimes I've directly came into their ad agency and then gotten the North Face work fee of that.

So it's like kind of crazy. And I think that, I'm curious how you guys do it. I've been listening to your show to see how other people do it. It's this like weird network, right? And like media is kind of always changing and all that. And it's like, what do I want to do? You know, when I'm on those big mega sets

with like 50, 60 people, I'm like, oh, this is kind of cool. You do that a couple of times. I'm like, I'm over it. And then it's like, when we're on the set with like four or five of us doing our own thing, we're like, this is pretty awesome. There's nobody really breathing down our back. And then after a little while, you're like, but it would be nice to have like more people involved.

So I know that's a long one to answer, but yeah, the agency is a big one. And then direct client reach out. And then a lot of these companies I've been trying to work with, like, um, answer but yeah the agency and is a big one and then direct client reach out and then a lot of these companies I've been trying to work with like they're like just massive conglomerates right now like if you get in with Vanity Fair or Revellous brands or something like that they actually own like seven or eight brands and now they're trying to I found a lot of these guys are trying to have like one main marketing entity that like serves all these brands, but they obviously

can't do that all in house. So then they need to like sub out to get specific niche people. So I don't know. It's a whirlwind. I'm about to release a new website. I have this girl that's going to help me just connect with different agencies and all that. I'm hoping that's going to open up some doors, but there's no magic bullet I found.

But what is, how is she going to help you connect with the agencies? Like what's her role? She's been a executive producer for a bunch of companies and agencies over the years. And now it was just kind of freelance slash semi retired and just met her on a shoot and started speaking to her and she's like, oh, you guys do some cool work. I'd be maybe willing to help, but once you get your stuff together

and I don't even wanna go into like the year long website update I've been doing and just user friendly and reels and all that, but it's tough because I feel like I've been so busy, I haven't been putting a lot of time into the website and advertising myself. And then if you haven't been putting a lot of time into the website and advertising myself and then if you don't do that every couple years that you kind of I'm in the same boat. I gotta update our website. I've been putting it off, but it's

It's tricky. Do you are you doing it yourself or you're hiring someone? I have somebody hiring it but I have it set up so that I can do the back end so I can change out content All that and so since i've been working on it with her the last six or seven months, I haven't updated anything else because it doesn't make sense. But I don't know. I think the last time I redid my website was 10 years ago. So it's like in every 10 years. That's a while.

Oh, yeah. 10 years is a while. Dario's talking about like two years or something. No, ours is, I think, coming up five years. I've been updating content about this, the structure of the layout's been the same. Oh yeah, yeah, yeah. I need a beautifier website.

Our website needs a visual overhaul. The content too, I need to focus a bit more on like, what do they call it, internally linking the words and all that boring SEO stuff that just consumes huge chunks of my time. Totally, that's where I'm sure you guys get that point. I'm always at the point of like, boring SEO stuff that just consumes huge chunks of my time. Totally, that's where I'm sure you guys get that point. I'm always at the point of like, what can I pull off myself

or what can I hire somebody else for? And it just, there's always that balancing act where it's like managing the backend of the system, updating content, no problem. Once you show me how to do that, I can do that. Should I do that more often? Yes, but you know, building the whole backend, coming up with the design and what's like cool right now in the community is going to

like serve me for the next five plus years that I'm willing to pay somebody else to do and figure out. Yeah, yeah, you got to be careful too, because sometimes they might do it and it might tank your website. It's such a like fine line. You got to walk between like, you know, we're updating it, but got to make sure it's not gonna break or like cause problems that are Google ranking. It's a stressful thing Yeah, I'm not jealous of you at all I remember early on when we when we were first redeveloping the website there would be like certain things I would be saying asking Darro's like hey, can we try this? Can we try this? But then he'd be like no if we do that

It's going to completely throw everything out of whack or it's gonna tank the SEO ratings as well. We have to, so like it was, there's very specific rules you gotta do and it's hard to find good people that you can trust to handle that aspect, right? Cause some people try to go for quick and easy fixes. Sometimes like we had, we've talked to some people in the past

who were in that mindset and Dario would say like, yeah, we've talked to some people in the past who were in that mindset and Dario would say like, yeah, we shouldn't work with them because they're just offering quick fixes that aren't actually gonna help us in any way in the long run. Totally. Yeah, I have a great person doing it. She's local to this area and we've kind of kept pushing back

the launch because we want it to be perfect and we want it to be right. And I appreciate that with somebody, right? It's like don't launch it too early. Same with like the videos. Don't launch it too soon. Same with rough cuts. Client's are always like, I can handle a rough cut.

You're like, you can't really. Let me get you like a three quarter. Let me get you a three quarter cut before I give you like the rough rough. That's funny. With our rough cuts, we try to make sure it's like as close to the working cut as possible because yeah like they like you can't for example show them a cut that doesn't have a lot applied. Just look at it and like freak out. Why is it all gray? Yeah yeah especially when you're dealing with financial clients you have to try to like what they see is what they think is what they're getting.

They won't understand right away that, that it's just a pre-working cut or anything like that. I mean, obviously it depends who you're working with. And like, if there's like certain process where you need to get certain approvals beforehand in terms of like certain messaging that you need to get approvals for. But as Daria mentioned,

we try to keep it as close as possible to the final or at least what the final cut would be whereas like if it's just a matter of like simply swapping things out on the client's end it makes things a lot easier for us and the whole post-production process. 100%. You don't expand it too long right? Yeah totally. No matter how many times you said somebody's somebody be like this is not the final VO this

is just a placeholder VO and they're like, can we just change that vo give it a different voice is I'm like, yes That's what we're asking you to help us figure out. What's your voice? Just merely the words you wrote that we're putting in there next to the shots It's just Chris's like a watermark. You gotta put a watermark on the video and saying not actual vo KGB productions not actual vo like every 30 seconds like in those uh like uh stock sites let's let's talk about your your niche let's go back to that for a second um for people that are that are trying to develop it um do you have any recommendations or or words of advice for them like people that are really trying to grow within their particular niche.

Like to grow within their niche or to grow within the outdoor adventure niche or just in general? I think let's just keep it more generalized. How do you grow in your niche? For you was it like a natural process or did you like really work at? Yeah, I think it was a natural process. Really worked out a lot. I think just partnering with different people has always been good. Like working with different people, even though, you know, like I like to fancy myself as a DP director.

But, you know, the right project, especially like earlier on in my career, if I could come on and be an AC or just a camera operator on a cool project or meet people I think that's always a good way to do it if you're finding people you know right there's that triangle of like is it good for my career am I gonna make some money off it do I think it's a cool project and if I can get two of those things to work then I would consider the project generally. I think for me and when my business partner and stuff here was around it was always like having like summer interns, having people that are like 18, 19 in their early 20s just

kind of getting out of school just to kind of be, just to have that energy one and two to just kind of see what they're watching, how are they consuming media and doing that has kind of always helped. But yeah, breaking into your niche, I think it's just trying to do as much work in that particular niche that you want as you possibly can and seeking out people

whose work you admire and trying to work with them or get on set with them. Yeah, I think not having a big ego, willing to say, you know what, I'm willing to do this job or this job because I think I'm going to learn something is totally worth it. Keep pounding the pavement and saying no. I can't tell you how many times people say no, no, no, no, no, and then you keep pounding them and then they eventually will let up. I guess also doing those passion projects would be good as well, right? Like now that you're trying to break into like the the beverage

Yes, three like hundred percent yeah, you know that was a great example where we just got paid to go out and shoot a bunch of stuff and then they had a Internal media company that was gonna take all the footage and edit it. And they did some edits with it. I didn't think they'd capitalize on our footage. So we just on spec took the same footage those guys had, cut a bunch of edits to it, sent it to the client. They're like, wow, this is great.

Like, we should have you guys edit it next time. And again, I'm not trying to steal a job or stepping on other people's shoes. But I think it's like, we had a vision when we went in there and And making that work like you said and doing those pastures projects when you have the time and effort to do that That's kind of one gonna teach you stuff and two, you know You never know who's gonna see that or where it's gonna be and what people are gonna think about it Do you think then also having a very? big passion and desire for that type of work will translate

into it that will kind of bring out like the interest from other people? Because I think in terms of like, like tips and, and suggestions for people who want to focus on a specific niche, wouldn't you say that is like one of the top things to do is like have a huge passion for that specific type of work Rather than just you know being very laissez-faire about it. Yeah. Yeah 100% you know, uh-huh But I think you gotta be passionate for it I don't think if you're just like hey I just want to give the video because I want to get rich like you're not gonna find that success

You might in some aspects but And then there's all these online courses where I almost took one in the sky. I can get you retainers and all these local businesses, your dentist office, your blah, blah, blah. And then I got confused by the numbers and the money. And I have some competitors here that do that kind of stuff. And then I said to myself, wait a second second that's not the work I want to do like I'm doing that just because I think I can make more money at it like I think you're

right you got to pick that niche that you're interested in and and whether that's a specific niche or your niche is like I'm really interested in like cool lenses and how they make pictures look you know like pick something whether it's a niche in the film industry or a niche in the career that you're really excited about And then you'll probably be successful with it and that's what I remember this quote from now famous filmmaker Jimmy Chin when I was considering like working for this other production company and he was like, man, if you keep doing what you're doing eventually, you'll be really good at it.

One of the only few people that do it and you'll be successful. And now our office is literally in the building of this production company I was gonna work for that went out of business and moved to Denver about 12 years ago. And now we're like in this building that was built out as a studio.

And if I had gone to work for them, you know, 12 years ago, because I was in that point of my career where I was like, am I going to do it myself or am I just going to go work for somebody else, then I wouldn't be where I am. So that's kind of a story I always think back on like, when times get low, you just almost need to like kind of double down on why you do it and what you want to do. And yeah, I think if you have it and what you want to do and Yeah, I think if you have that passion and you find that niche or that career that you want to think that You have a pretty good chance of being successful

Yeah, that's good. I like that Let's let's talk a little bit about like your team like first of all is it just you running the company or do you have business partners? Yep. As of now, I have a business partner for about 15 years. And then right around COVID, pre-COVID, basically, we were kind of like splitting and going separate ways, mostly amicable. And we're still great friends. We live in this town.

We have this weird agreement where we just trade and let each other use gears with no real rental it's not official or anything and So that was good for a long time and then we've always had like a couple people that that work for us Whether that's full-time as an employee or you know full part-time as a freelancer So I think that's good like I said I generally always have a summer intern that's either getting college credit or just out of college and generally you know that small stipend or unpaid but you know I give them free reign I'm like hey you want to take out

our red camera our time-lapse system whatever like go do it I'll tell you the place you can go get it if it works out if not, no sweat off my back, as we do like get a bunch of stock footage of the area and that's stuff that is of value to me. Oh, and I've got a great, right now I've got a great guy that's a really interested shooter, kind of spent some time in LA, realized that wasn't really for him and kind of, he grew up in Tahoeoe moved out back here The mountains really great DP so photographer and an editor and I'd say most of the guys I work with Are kind of cine editors like maybe they're a better editor than they are camera

But they can operate the camera pretty well and be a second camera Most of them are probably more cameraman than editors, but they can at least, you know, get a radio edit, rough out a story, get it to a point where we could then send it to a Finnish editor to really tighten up. And I think that that's important too. Like I don't really edit that much anymore. It's just such a time suck, but I love it. I do it. There's this little like 30 second commercial we just did and we had a rough cut of it and I just was like, ah it's just not right and like I got in there and spent like five hours like tweaking stuff around and that's kind of fun you forget about that that actually like you had this vision you shot it you forgot about it for like a month and then you can come back and kind of grab those

pieces together it's it's pretty unique but um yeah and then the team is you know we generally scale up we're lucky in this Jackson area, especially for outdoor production There's a bunch of one and two man bands Obviously You know in bigger shoots we bring people in from elsewhere. So like or Bozeman or LA but um, yeah there's probably a core crew of Six or seven people in this area that I generally work with and part of that's just they're here locally.

They got a freelance basis. Yeah. And sorry, what did you say? I was just asking like, so most of those people are like on a freelance basis in terms of like full time though it's just you. Totally, yeah, yeah. There are most of those guys are freelance basis.

And I do a lot of project raterate stuff where I'll be like, hey, we're doing this editorial, so as we're doing this commercial, what, can you come in and help shoot it? Maybe you're the DIT also, and we work together quite a bit. But there is two people that are here pretty much every day, myself,

and then my main guy, Ryan, who's cameraman, editor, and then we have, I wanna say, AC paid intern kind of like younger guy up and coming hopefully he's going to figure it out and really step it up here. I'd say yeah most of our shoots are probably like two to four people for the average and then you know we scale up and down when needed. Regarding the business partner you had before I I'm just wondering, because I've been hearing this quite a few times that, you know, there was a partner and then they ended up going their separate ways. What would you say is like a good way to like amicably end a partnership? end a partnership. That's good. I think what I learned in hindsight is we probably should have set up some parameters before like we met when we

were 18, became friends like we kind of pseudo started the company when we were like in our 21, 22 and then it wasn't till we were like late 20s that we're actually like making money off of it and trying to figure that out and I just think it got to this point when we kind of decided to split ways because we had kind of different interests that, um, there was no like playbook for like who owns what or what is this? And then basically it came down to like, there was a handful of these clients that each of us thought were like our clients.

And then it just kind of came down to at the end being like, okay, how important are these clients really to me versus my friendship or him? And then like, if honestly, I think I'm the better person for that client, like, why don't I just wait for two years, not compete and then see if that client still works with them or with me, then we'll know the answer. But I'd say I think we were pretty lucky because we had a pretty solid friendship. And like, I'm in this group of like

Eight or nine friends that I kind of went to college with or met right when I came to Jackson and he's one of them So that helped out we definitely we got like a non-partial lawyer friend involved just to kind of like help with the You know logistics stuff, but in hindsight I would say having an understanding in the beginning. Hey, we're creating this company. We're going to be partners. What does happen if we split? Is it 50-50? How do you do this? How do you value stuff?

Cause you know, like how do you value future contracts? Like right now we have no future contracts, but maybe like, um, so yeah, that that's what I would say is just kind of figuring out and talking about beforehand. I know like when you first get together with your creative business party, you think that like nothing's going to change and you guys gonna work together forever but it's good setting up those parameters just like you would when you get hired for like a freelance job where I get hired to go work for like Outside TV or something for a month, you know, we have a contract we stipulate what happens what the roles and responsibilities are and

I think having that set up in the beginning is great for a partnership. And for us, it just was kind of like, we were kind of working in videos together, kind of part-time, half-time, and then just kind of morphed into this business. And there was never any discussion of who does what and how you run it. But yeah, but it was a great growing experience

and kind of figuring out what my niche, and I think that also helped me figure out what I really want to do. You know, I was like, okay, I love this action sports thing. I want to keep that 50% of our business, but I want to go into some more cinematic challenging environments and whether that's straight commercial stuff or like some stuff that you guys do, like I don't mind doing a handful of corporate gigs here and there, especially when it's heavy interviews and lighting because that to me is awesome. The first decade of my career I barely even set up a light.

So now it's the second decade or two I'm setting up a lot more lights and that's fun. I'm watching tutorials on it and figuring that out. It's not an easy business and I just just say, stay humble and, you know, try not to fuck over your friends because you're going to end up working with them in the future again. That's true. I'm curious about the splitting the clients.

Like, how do you go about that? Like, that seems very complicated. Yeah, it was really complicated. It was. And the funny thing was, it's like, kind of like who dealt with them. And it's like, literally out of like 50 clients we've worked with most of them like boom that's yours that's mine boom boom boom. And it was just like core of like eight to ten that we

couldn't really let go of it. It just came down to us kind of being like okay who's going to who's going to budget this so that we can make it work. And that just was a matter of talking back and forth logistics some of us letting go and then also, you know, maybe becoming a little more honest with each with ourselves like how much work should I really do for this client or how much did I put into this relationship? But I think that was the hardest part and honestly it came down to like a part at the end where I'm sure Sam feels the same way where I maybe let go of a client or two that I thought was mine and he maybe let go of a client too is his.

But like in the end, most of those clients that I wanted to work with, I continue to work with. Some of them Sam still works with and a handful of them, their marketing director switched seven times since then, so none of us work for him. The funny thing is I feel like the client situation might be one of the more easier things to also determine because it is somewhat more of a tangible thing where it's like, this is the relationship

that we've worked with, this is the kind of work we've done. But the part that might be a little bit challenging for some people to kind of quantify is also, who decides to take the name, the company name, right? Because there's also that portfolio and the track record and, and, and the name recognition, especially if you guys have been around for so long, right? Like how did you guys determine that part is probably easier than the client Carol, because with the client, what if someone, what if one of the partners

brought in the client? That's what complicates it. Yeah, another one did the one. It was all complicated. And to not get too into it like the client list was kind of our tricky stuff the equipment the name and all that we just kind of figured out with like hey we're selling some of this equipment I'm keeping this I'm gonna pay you out this you're gonna pay me this I'm gonna take on we had some debt at the time I kept the company in the name

but then I took on all the debt associated with it. Which, you know, that was probably easier than doing like a buyout, right? Yeah. Yeah. That sense that point. I mean, I don't know how your production company runs. I don't have like just six figures just sitting in the bank account ready to buy. I don't think any of us do. It has to be amicable. It has to be amicable in that case. When you got employees, I guess you do have to have like a loan just because, yeah, if you have a couple of dead months while you're waiting for stuff, like, you got to pay your guys either way, right?

Totally. And that's been interesting. I found some people want to work and have taxes taken out and be an employee. And some people want to be just 1099. And it doesn't matter to me each way. There are some legal things that you have to jump in and out. Is that freelancer? Does that mean freelancer?

Yeah, that's their freelancer form, yeah. So I just kind of have a really great bookkeeper. And she just kind of tells me what to do. And I just kind of play with whoever it is. And I will say that even the two main guys that work with me, even though they're technically freelance, like we have a mutual understanding, like, Hey, you're not going to go to like Jackson home, Mount Resort, or one of my main clients that you met through me and go undercut it.

And generally like when they're taking other jobs, though, for the most part, they'll be like, Hey, I got to offer this other job. It's here. Like we have nothing going on. Is that cool?'ll be like, hey, I got to offer this other job. It's here. Like we have nothing going on. Is that cool? I'm like, yeah, it's totally cool. You want to do it. And like, I want those guys to go out and work other jobs and learn other things and hopefully learn better things that I've taught them. And then we bring that back to our own productions.

Yeah, the general understanding when you're working when freelancers are working with production companies is that you don't bite the hand that feeds you as well. You know, like, so like, that's usually kind of like the one of the main rules. It's like, you're not going to go for the same clients that you've worked with through a certain production company. It should be the standard, right? Essentially. But it's like, there are exceptions like that are like due to like very certain circumstances, but in general, that is essentially what the norm is.

Right. Yeah. Same with me. I run this company. I do a lot of the work in it, but I'll go freelance for other people. Just DP or direct on a commercial or shoot, and that's awesome for me. Be kind of have one role and be hands off. But yeah, I would never reach out to that client or anything

without, you know, the explicit permission of whoever gave me the job. And if those clients ever did reach out to me again, I would reach out to that director of production and be like, hey, Jim from Macy's just hit me up about this. What's up with that? And most of the time, the few times that's happened, they've been like, oh yeah, that's a smaller project, we're not working on that, or we're bidding on it, or like go ahead. Or like, hey, that guy's a jerk, he's a terrible marketing director, don't ever work with him. And you know, I think, I always think us production guys, we're always on the same team, right? So if like, I see that like a client's gone through multiple production companies, I know them and I talk to them and they're like, trust me, man, you don't want to work with

this guy, he's a nightmare. Like, I'll them and I talk to them and they're like, trust me, man, you don't want to work with this guy, he's a nightmare. I'll generally take that advice and luckily I feel like I'm at a point in my career where I don't necessarily need to accept every single job that comes in. There are times that feel that way when you're like, oh, there's nothing on the schedule, I got to take this job. But I think finding the clients that you work with too, is really important too. Because what do they always say, some of the most demanding clients are like

the lowest paying, biggest paying in the buck line. So you gotta kind of try to like, filter that out, whereas, you know. And you know what you're getting into, there's some of my clients that I know like, hey, I wish they would only give me four rounds of feedback, but I know we're gonna be six or eight, but I get enough consistent work from them,

and I know them on a personal level that I'll let them do that. Other ones, I'm like, no, you get three rounds of feedback, that's it, you know? And we just had that the other day, where like, my guy editor, he's like, how many rounds of feedback are we gonna let these guys go? And I was like, dude, this guy,

this is the third company startup he's been with over the last 10 years, he brings me like, tens of thousands of dollars of work a year. Like he gets as many revisions as he wants, man, within reason, you know? There's a reason you have a salary this month and it's because of this guy. Yeah. So the client don't do that for everybody. You know, you got to manage each client. And that's the whole thing about being just a freelance

over speed and production companies. Like it's also client management and personnel management, just trying to keep everybody happy. Yeah. Like you're not going to like the clients that you have developed relationships with that you work for many, many years with them and you understand what their goals and needs are. They understand what the whole process is and they keep coming back to you. You want to help them whenever possible. You know,

like if they ask for a quick additional revision or something like that, that's not super out of the norm, that completely changes a lot of things, you're gonna take that on the arm because you wanna keep that relationship going. You're not gonna charge them an extra round of revision for them to see a couple shots being swapped or something like that,

that isn't anything super complicated. You wanna keep that relationship going and you and keep the experience good. And obviously as long as they don't take advantage and ask for things constantly. Uh, but if you manage it in a good way, then it should work for, for everyone in that, at that case. A hundred percent. I'm sure it works for you guys. It's like sometimes you're working with companies and people that company change and you stay with the company or Sometimes the people you worked with at that company ad agency move to somewhere else and then they come to you with some other clients So it's like it's kind of funny in this industry, right?

there's people I've worked with a Decade ago didn't even hear anything from and then they had a project that fit me or they thought about me or is in like Jackson Wyoming and they called me and it's the same thing where it's like, where were we? We were in like Florida. Like I haven't been to Florida on a project for like eight years, but I remember, I was like, oh, the last time I was there, I called this guy, he was an amazing fixer.

That guy like got us vehicles, he got us models, he got us talent and he remembered, he was like, oh, Kitchen, thanks for calling me. I keep looking at your work, you know, and it's like, cool, that's how the industry works, right, is you have this big roll of this and these emails and like, I'll answer the call all the time too. If people I've worked with, people call me, they will have a specific question about Jackson

or cameras or anything like, I probably do it more than I should, but I'll pick up the phone and kind of answer most people's questions. And with the hope that like, when I'm desperate and I need that like, you know, red blanket with a cloud pattern on it in Florida, I can call somebody that's going to help me find that too. Yeah, that's that's been one of the things we've been doing with the show as well.

Like I've had people reach out to me and say, Hey, I need I need to I have a shoot in like Chicago that was this week and I have a shoot in Chicago. Can you help me find someone there? So I just leveraged the network and then I was helping them out with that with you know You understanding that I help you if I ever need help in the future, you know There's some other time And that's cool about your podcast and looking at all the different people and I'm definitely that's intriguing to me too is like, okay Now I have with your guys network people that you've interviewed and people in different places that are vetted, you know, it's like, at least they're vetted by one or two degrees and send me just cold Google searching it's like people call me I'm sure you do I'm like I'm not your guy to

help you with that but try this guy he's the helicopter specialist you know again hoping that we all we had that happen yeah we had that happen one of the guys was like you know what all I'll just send you a bunch of I'll connect you with a couple of freelancers that I know that way you don't have to pay it on middleman tax and I was like oh perfect and I was actually talking to someone else that was gonna be the middleman tax. And I was like, Oh, perfect. And I was actually talking to someone else that was going to be the middleman. And like the price difference was so drastic. I was like, Oh, this is great.

Yeah. And especially when you're trying to like figure out ways to kind of make projects go further for your clients and for your and for your overall productions, like you've got to be able to leverage your network and see where you can do that. I mean, one way is obviously reaching out to people in these different states and cities, you know, so that you don't have to be flown out there because that always is like a whole huge expense of at least like one to $2,000,

depending on how many people you're sending out, right? You know, that balloons the production budget by a heck of a lot. And it sometimes can make your clients less inclined to kind of do video projects when the budgets go up for something like that, which you could figure out ways to kind of manage the costs, then they might not be inclined to come back for more videos or as often, right? So you want to try to make it as smooth for them so that they can come back to you videos or as often, right? So you want to try to make it as smooth for them so that they can come back to you

with more and more projects. Right, and I want to say something. This might be a little off topic about budgets and all that, but I really appreciate it when a client comes to you and says, hey, this is our budget range. This is what we want. What can we do? I mean, I know we all wish that would happen. Instead this just like blind, like let's play this blind bidding game. And

I try to do the same too. Like when I call people, be like, Hey, this is what I have. I'm looking for a model or Hey, I'm looking for a camera like grip. What do you guys normally charge? This is the range I have just so people can just right off the bat say yes or no, instead of this like cat and mouse game about money here and there and I think and I also think the clients that get that and understand that I come with the budget range they know what they want and what they're gonna get for it and so it makes more sense than to play this like cat and mouse budget game and that's same with same with people like you know people quote me where it's great I'll

generally tell people if I have a rate it's great, I'll generally tell people if I have a rate that's more or less than what they quote, depending on the shoot and what we're trying to do and what we're trying to balance. But I think that's something in our industry we could do more of, and I'm a pretty straight shooter in maybe not in this podcast or something, but like, if somebody calls me when I'm talking to you,

I'll be like, hey, this is generally how much I charge for this. This is how much I charge for this. Oh, what do you charge? Oh cool it's just like the more we're all kind of in line or understanding what people are paying the better it is for us than when you know, there's just the Agency gatekeeper just trying to make that money stretch as far as possible I can imagine like we deal with a lot of direct to client So I do hear that at times like oh we don't we don't know we're just asking around but I I still push to get the number because

and I make my intentions known it's like listen I'm just I'm like Tony Stark putting together a team I need to know like what kind of resources I got at my disposal right if I don't know any numbers so I try to like get something out of them because they all know what the number is. Yeah, they have the numbers. There's no way they started without knowing what the number was in the first place. So I always, I have like a 90% success rate when getting a number out of them.

But yeah, I can imagine dealing with agencies. It's definitely way trickier because I think ad agencies or marketing agencies really will not tell you that number. Yeah, because also they're dealing with, sometimes they might be dealing with a project that is like a bigger commercial where you don't know if the budget's 50,000, 80,000, 100,000 or even with smaller based projects where it might where they make it seem like it's not much, but the budget is like maybe 10,000 or 15,000 and it can really fluctuate

when you're talking to an ad agency. But at the very least with the direct to client, you'll know that they have like a rough range or at least a limit that you can get out of them. A lot of the time they may not offer it up right away because they're also new to it. Sometimes clients haven't done a lot of the time they may not offer it up right away because they're also new to it. Sometimes clients haven't done a lot of video production projects before so they don't necessarily know what's like a standard. And as Dario said, at the very least he tries

to get that number out of them so that he can let them know it's like that should work for you or you need to put more money back behind this if you want to achieve the result that you want. You know, it's, there's that aspect to it too. I think with agencies, the reason why they really gate keep it is because, like they, whatever they're given from the client, let's say 10,000, they still need to make their margins within that 10,000. So if they're getting quoted like 10,000 on the dot

from the production company, they're gonna make zero from that. I think that's how it works. I haven't worked at an agency. I'm just guessing that's how it works. Yeah, they gotta charge for their time and their creative and their distribution. That's what I always ask too is,

I'm sure you like how you guys distribute this. Oh, great. You have an online partner to distribute. Oh, you're putting paid media behind it because you can make the greatest little ad and commercial in the world. Oh great you you have an online partner to your oh you're putting paid media behind it because You can make the greatest little ad commercial in the world But if you're not getting it out there, you're not putting paid behind it or something like that That's not gonna do what you want for it. So and I'm sure you guys do that, too I'm always asked you know, what is the goal of this video project? We're doing why are we doing?

What is your goal? You want to get more eyeballs here? You want to sell this product xxx like how are we gonna do, what is your goal? You wanna get more eyeballs here, you wanna sell this product XXX, like how are we gonna do that? Because if the video isn't effective in reaching the goals that the client wants, then they're gonna do more video. Yeah, and like you said, sometimes if the budget is 10K, maybe the only money that they can put behind

for production, it's actually 2000 that they've determined based on all the other needs. It all depends on what the marketing goals are essentially. But yeah, you know, sometimes they'll just come to you and it's like, Hey, this is what it is. This is what we have to offer. And that's, and you got to kind of bid on it, right. And see what, where you come. And it's great. And that's what you say, okay, for this price, I can do this for this price, I can do this. And then, you know, it all if we have our standard rates that we like to keep and think

we're worth but again, it fluctuates depending on the project, the timeline, how busy we are, whether I really like the project, etc, etc, you know, there's there's certain things and then there's sometimes and I get this too, when I'm just giving dummy dummy bids we can tell an agency's just reached out and they need to get four bids and they want like a dummy bid from you and sometimes I'll put time and effort into that or sometimes I'll just be like this doesn't seem like you're serious about working with us in a bit and you know because that's the I think people don't talk about this industry is a lot when you're putting together those bids the director treatments or anything it's like the only industry I know where I'm gonna spend four hours five hours a week on big proposals just to pitch a job

that might not even get. Yeah that's tough that's tough what would our proposals because we deal with a lot of like corporate clients I have like a templated thing I'll send out and I'm just literally just swapping out key details Case study examples and I'm just a quote. I try not to spend like more than 30 minutes on it. Nice Yeah you get like a Like a system in place, right? But you're doing you're doing more commercial stuff So it's trickier with that because you really do got to develop like directors treatment all that stuff. For us, luckily, it's more it's more basic.

And we have some templates and stuff, but you know, it's a matter of retyping this stuff up, which is becoming easier with some of those programs out there and then finding the imagery and all that. And yeah, it takes time. And I guess it just depends on how big the job and who the client is, whether how much effort we put into it. What do you use by the way for, for those types of pitches and proposals? Like what's the secret sauce? Carol is not going to give the secret.

No, like Google slides or like in design all the time because we had a bunch of talent and I knew my way around it, but I've been transitioning over to Google slides. Yeah, just cuz it's easier I got a couple templates built that I plug and drop stuff in and then um, I do like Which I couldn't do as much in the end design I do like being able to send a link and people can look at the deck online They can get a PDF of it but also when it's a link online, you can kind of keep updating it and perfecting it,

especially when you're doing director's treatments and you're in version eight where you tweak the color palette just a hair, but you gotta send them a whole other 30 page PDF. I try to keep it simple. If you were using InDesign, no wonder it was taking you four hours to work on it. Yeah, it takes time it looks really good time.

It does look amazing. I will give you that. My girlfriend's a graphic designer, so I had her create some stuff for us and she wanted to use InDesign and I was like, yeah, it'll look fantastic from what I've seen too, but it's like, I don't know how to use it and I can't like figure out, like figure it out over the course of 30 hours. I need it like in five minutes. And especially if you're also working with other people, like Dara and I

sometimes are working in Google slides where I'd be working on one project, updating some slides, and then he would need some of those to use for another pitch documents and it's a lot easier to kind of interchange and save like that. Or we could like work on stuff at the same time to develop it further if we need to. And it's just a lot easier in Google Slides. I feel like a lot of people are starting to kind of go into that direction. I'm assuming. I'm like 90% Google Slides now. Yeah. That's great. That's great. I love using it. Very simple.

What it is, but what I'm doing like, cause we do some, what I call editorial content where like that was a project in Colorado where it is like an editorial based series about the ski industry and careers and jobs in it and it's for like a powder magazine and powder.com which is like a publication and then we have different brands that sponsor the series so instead of one company putting in like 50 grand because they can't really do that for editorial stories, you get five brands to put in 10 grand and then you have this little editorial service. So for that, for those decks, because I'm actually asking people for money and getting

them on board with my idea, I'll do like a, like in-design or Google slides combo, just make it look like a step above. But yeah. I don't remember who told us about this, but they is sorry. Go ahead. I was going to say I forgot who told us about this, but if they're going to be creating like an in-depth like proposal or treatment, they'll actually ask for a deposit. Like a small something for their time.

Like yeah, like a big chunk, but it will be something just to like I guess make the the lead feel committed as well Because he's like I'm gonna like start giving them ideas and everything. I want to get paid for it Yeah, especially if you're because like there is that aspect where if you pitch an idea that they haven't thought of they might like the Idea, but don't want to hire you for the budget You're proposing and they'll take that idea and go to someone else and be like, Hey, can you do this for this budget? And then, yeah. It's a clever way to go about it. Like, and I guess it'll cut through the fluff and you might find some better leads because of it. But again, depends on your industry and whatnot. Yeah.

Let's we're getting close to the end. So I guess let's just end it off with like some future forward thinking. You've been running your business over 20 years. You've already mastered one niche. You're trying to get into another one now. But I'm more curious about what your long-term vision is for your company. That is a good question. And I think the long-term vision kind of keeps changing as you get involved in it

more, but I think my vision has always been and I want to continue is to like work with people that are motivated and passionate and continue to be, continue to want to learn more and do more and obviously create a stable income and business model but I think I want to work on, I want to continue to work on pieces that challenge me and make me a better filmmaker while still keeping the bread and butter jobs and the stuff that brings it in and Yeah, where's the future I've been thinking about that a lot with China with the website I mean at some point it's this funny thing

I think everybody has this idea you're gonna build this big production company and sell it. And I think I've kind of realized that it's me and the individuals that work here that make the kind of company what it is. And there's not going to be a big payday at the end of that. I don't think selling my client list or anything like that. So it's like, how can I continue to do projects that I'm interested in? Some projects we do straight for money and that's okay too. And then kind of keep that life work balance. You know I would say earlier I would just do whatever it took to get the job done and

work and have no boundaries and now I'm trying to have better boundaries with that and enjoy the place I live and get out there. And really again fostering community. The day that I don't have a college intern or a high school intern or somebody that's in their young 20s working around me, then that's the day we're going to die as a company. I think you always need to have that peaceful energy in there. Just again, for the cool ideas, for what's hot, for what's in media, and it just breeds

inner stoke. And then, yes, supporting this film community here, I think like I'm really lucky this town, Jackson, Wyoming, relatively small, big tourist community, and there's like a great group of filmmakers here and innovative and creative people, also outside the film and just in the arts and just being able to kind of contribute to that industry

and to, you know, keep doing work that challenges to me, hopefully motivate other people to get involved and stay afloat as a business and just get better at doing business, which I think is, we touched on this a little bit, but this is a whole other subject that someone should talk about on your podcast. Just the business of running a production business is so many things I didn't even know or understand that I was gonna do and like in hindsight, maybe I should have gotten an MBA

ahead of time and I would have been more efficient, but I do think that like the business stuff is fun and I enjoy that and it's part of the process, but I know that it pays off with being able to do the creative work, so just being able to do that. I mean, what we love about this is like getting that cool new project that comes in thinking of a way to make that happen. And the fact that it's not the same every day, you know, even if you're going into

the same building and setting up an interview every day, it's always going to be a little different with like the way the light reflects off the person's skin or the tone or the window or the back. And it's just like getting better at kind of bending light as they say and telling stories and hopefully telling stories that resonate. I feel like once I get to a point where if we're making commercials or editorial stories

and they don't resonate with anybody or they just seem like it's just total fluff and I've sold out then that's probably the time to end to Nice well, I don't know if I answered that question, but you know you did you know that's that's great Yeah, there's no wrong answer to it. So and there's no correct answer either Yep. Yeah, I can't imagine doing anything else, you know other times and I will say anybody that's doing this on their own Are there times when I thought about throwing in towel, selling everything and working for somebody else or going to work in-house at a company or at an agency and just being their person?

A hundred times. That happens probably like every other year of my life. But then there's that one project or that one cool thing that comes up that you get to do yourself and just being able to kind of like manage your own time a little bit that keeps me involved in this. And just seeing that, you know, like, just because you think that job at, you know,

some company is stable, you know, two or three years later, you see that that job doesn't exist anymore, I think we're at least, at least now, and I'm sure you guys feel at least, at least I'm betting on myself. And I've been proven consistent that I can get work over the last 20 years. So, you know, my advice, I guess,

to those future and aspiring filmmakers is bet on yourself and be passionate about it. It takes the ups and the downs as they come because they're all gonna make you a better person and a better filmmaker. And that's what our goal is. And you're always gonna push hard to bet on yourself, especially you're gonna see what you can do to really

To really make it work You know if you know when the chips are down you're gonna you're gonna take the risks that you need to to to make it Work because it's for you, right? Whereas if you're working at another company, like you said, you never know what can happen Something might happen the company might go out of business even and it's not even so much that I feel like people like us can't work for someone else, especially not this many years into it. It's like a dog that's lived outside the whole time. You can't house train him anymore, right?

Yeah, totally. We're wild. We're in the wild, technically, right? We can't be tamed. Right. And I would say take opportunities, too. I think it was like three years ago Four years ago a really good friend that worked on life below zero, you know that TV show and I got a chance to go

DP on one like four week long show there in the desert and it was awesome. It was like survival Alaska stuff. I loved it. I also realized I'd always looked at that my friends that did them been like, oh, that a glamorous life. They just go work for one month and then they don't do anything for like a month and they get this job and then like I did it. I was like, that was a really cool experience. That's not the type of filmmaker or video guy I want to be. So like sometimes it's great to do that stuff. And like, you know, that was three years ago. I did that just to see.

And you know, again, pay was great, felt like a really cool job, but I realized that's not where I want to focus my energy. So, but that's good. Take that risk. And now I don't even have to think about all my reality TV camera friends that they got it better than me. Yeah. Let's end off with how you came up with the name for the company and then we'll end the episode. Okay, my least favorite question. We originally came up with a name because it company and then we'll we'll end the episode. Okay. My least favorite question. Uh, we originally came up with a name because uh, it was a three of us that started. Uh, kitchen is my last name, Garson and Bayard. And, um,

we were just kind of playing with like shaking up the industry, you know, KGB, this like evil dark shadowy network. So that was, okay. Okay. So we were wondering about that. We have a little bit of that. And then we just thought it was funny. And then at the time, all the action sports companies were like, Warren Miller, WME, Teton Gravity Research, TGR, MSP, matchmaking.

So we were kind of doing a play off that. And like I said, I've thought about it. Working with the KGB. Yeah, yeah. Did you have a hammer and a sickle in the original logo. We didn't, but, um, yeah, so we just played off that. I've thought about changing it a hundred times and now I just feel like I've got some brand recognition and it's a big effort to rebrand and do all that.

Oh no, you can't change it now. You're committed at this point. Yeah. Yeah. Toy what? 15, 20 years. Like if you do that, you can't change it now. You're committed at this point. Yeah, yeah. What, 15, 20 years? Like if you do that, you're gonna tank on Google. Don't even attempt it.

Once you get past 10 years, you know, at that point, don't change it. Yeah. I'm starting to ask ChatGBT new things that KGB could mean to try to find something. Yeah, yeah. A different acronym, maybe. I'm gonna look it up after this. Yeah, yeah, different acronym. I'm going to look it up after this.

Yeah, capture great bio picture with a capture with a K. That's what I would. That's as professional. You mean it's not spelled with a K. Well, thank you guys. I really appreciate what you guys are doing and running your Chris. And running your business and doing this podcast. It's pretty cool to see and just listen to other creatives out there and figure out how they made it.

Because I think there is no clear, direct path that everybody does. Everybody comes to this on a different path. So it's always cool to hear different people's stories. So thanks for doing that. Absolutely. Thanks for joining us and sharing your story. So guys, if you want to find Chris go to KGB dash productions.com and his instagram is KGB underscore productions. So make sure you guys are following following

him on there. And there should be a new website out like April 1st ish. That's fine this episode's coming out after that so people will be able to see it. Alright. Thank you, Chris. Alright, take care. Thanks for listening to this episode of Creative Scrap Coffee. Please make sure to follow and engage with us on Instagram, TikTok, LinkedIn, YouTube, and your favorite podcast app. Creatives Grab Coffee is created by Laps Productions, a video production

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