Creatives Grab Coffee - Scalability, Collaborating & Pre-Production (ft. Play Creative) | Creatives Grab Coffee 28

Episode Date: June 14, 2022

Welcome to Creatives Grab Coffee, a podcast on the business of video production, hosted by Dario Nouri and Kyrill Lazarov from Lapse Productions.Our goal is to make the video production industry smaller by creating a sense of community. Whether you are a creative, an entrepreneur, or a professional there is knowledge for you to learn. Join us as we have industry professionals from around the world come on the show and share their insights on the industry and business. Welcome to Creatives Grab Coffee. Welcome to Video Production.Today we're joined by Amy Mantyka from Play Creative, a Saskatchewan-based commercial video production company with a studio in the heart of Regina’s historic warehouse district. Whether they’re creating content with local clients or shooting around the world, they look at every project from a creative, collaborative, and strategic vantage point.TIMESTAMPS:00:00 - Intro / Scalability00:09 - Sharing workloads / Collaborating together00:22 - Getting asked how you work 00:26 - Importance of Pre-Production / Going with the flow00:32 - Breaking your own rules00:36 - Viewer questions: How do you deal with difficult clients?00:49 - Working with an ad agency00:54 - Charging for revisionsTo view the post for this episode, visit: https://www.lapseproductions.com/scalability-collaborating-production-creatives-grab-coffee-28/To learn more about the show, visit: https://www.lapseproductions.com/creatives-grab-coffee/Subscribe and follow for future episodes!Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/2vHd8BdbkMQITFZmDJ0bo9Apple: https://podcasts.apple.com/ca/podcast/creatives-grab-coffee/id1530864140 Instagram: @CreativesGrabCoffee https://www.instagram.com/creativesgrabcoffee/ Produced by LAPSE PRODUCTIONS – https://www.lapseproductions.comInstagram: @lapseproductions https://www.instagram.com/lapseproductions/#videography #videographer #videoproduction #businesspodcast #videoproductionpodcast #lapseproductions #creativesgrabcoffee #videomarketing #videographers #videoproductioncompany #videoproductions #videoproductionservices #videmarketingstrategy

do you ever have um i find i have phone calls where like right when someone says something important sometimes it's like cuts out or it's always like funny in life when it's like sorry uh the most important thing you said i didn't get it you know so i i read this funny uh life pro tip where they were saying if you want to end the call with someone like just end it mid-sentence while you're talking so i don't know if they were probably trying to end the call on you then sentence while you're talking so i don't know if they were probably trying to end the call on you then maybe it's deliberate all these people are just like click and because psychologically you would it wouldn't look intentional so we could all have that in our back pocket for next time you're in trouble yeah absolutely so i i do like how car Carol brought everything back on track, though, with that whole little bump we had.

But I guess just to go back on schedule, Amy, why don't you just tell us like your background, like who you are and how you got into the video production industry? Awesome. So, yeah, I guess, as everyone knows already, I'm Amy. I'm based in Regina, Saskatchewan, so far away from you guys. I teamed up, oh, it's, you know, 10 or even more than 10 years ago now with two friends, Chris and Mike, in film school. And so those are my business partners today. And essentially, we teamed up and like our, oh, I have to think back. Our first ever project, I believe was something for a Crown Corporation out in Saskatchewan.

And someone called me and they wanted some videos that could be trusted to some recent film grads. It was gonna be renovations, toilet installations, upgraded thermoses. Like it was just, it was really funny that it wasn't like the most exciting video content and so I you know got Chris to help me and then Chris said you know what it's just two of us let's get Mike involved as well and then

the three of us sort of joined up for this you know pretty generic video project but that ended up being like a very critical project for us because it sort of kick-started the company like maybe we could make more videos maybe we should look at doing advertising versus um the film industry and so it was sort of like a little bit of a let's try this and see what happens and then actually a year later the tax credit was eliminated in Saskatchewan so it was all very interesting timing because it meant we're you know getting momentum doing a couple small videos couple ads and it really was um it's like you didn't even know but that became like a great uh source of work where a lot of

people actually had to leave Saskatchewan if you were previously in the film industry depending on what your job was so yeah we banded together and we started Play Creative. Bit of a long story, but yeah, now we're still here today, still doing advertising. And you guys started about 10 years ago? Yeah, it's about 10 years ago. It's like the month is sort of foggy, but I think we might be turning 11 in June. Like I really, these are the things I should know, but it's kind of like once you've started

and you've just been added and the years just have sort of flown by, yeah. We count like the business's birthday as the month where we, oh, you know what? We don't do that actually. I was gonna say the month where we registered, where we registered the

business's name but we did that in march but we went public we went like official like hey like we have a we're running a business video production company now instead of just us just freelancing that we did that in like september of like 2014 yeah yeah so it's been about uh eight years now almost where we've now been in business it's crazy to think because it feels like right at the pandemic we were at like what five years or so right oh yeah oh the pandemic it feels like it's just been many years over just the pandemic years right how did you two start what sorry how did we start how did you guys kind of band together so i was uh originally um just kind of like dabbling in video from like 2011 to 2013 just

on my own you know for fun while i was in business school at ryerson um and then halfway through my course uh or halfway through my program i decided you what, let me give video a try and, you know, have a crack at it. I didn't, I didn't really want to do marketing. And so, uh, I wasn't sure if I wanted to, if I should do film school or finish, um, the business program. And then at the end of it, I decided, you know what, I'm almost done. Let me finish it. Then I can figure out video stuff on the side. It turns out it was a good, it was a good decision because a lot of people needed video at the business program. So built a portfolio from that. Dario, who's a student groups needed, needed video. Exactly.

A lot of the student run organizations there. So I got my first portfolio base right out of that. And then Dario, who was a close friend of mine at the time, wanted to also kind of was, yeah, exactly. It was a little slip. Now it's all business. Yeah. Right. Business, not personal.

Business, not pleasure. Right. That's, that's the one. Yeah. Yeah. This just, you know, hit a, hit a sore spot. No, I'm just kidding. Yeah.

And anyways, he, he, he expressed an interest in it at the time, you know hit a hit a sore spot no i'm just kidding yeah and anyways he he um he expressed an interest in it at the time you know because he also had a passion for film like me and so we decided to kind of start slowly working together and uh and dario and i came up with the idea to start a production company we didn't know exactly what to do with it at the time but we knew it would be a good idea for future growth you know to start under a name I had to convince him he wasn't like I was like we should do a business like it can't just be like a name like you know like our personal names out there he's like no I don't know this and that because he had a bad experience previously I'm like oh my god I got to talk this guy into it now what was the hesitation was it like just the not wanting to ruin the relationship

was it the like committing for me it was um it wasn't the the committing aspect i did see the value in it it's just i had a previous thing where i had an idea of starting a production company with someone else and that relationship fell through so it kind of left a really bitter taste in my in my mouth about it so i thought I'm going to do everything on my own at first. But then when Daria and I started talking about it a little bit more,. And, you know, that's not a scalable as a business. So that's when we decided to come up with our own like a completely new brand work under that. And then, yeah, now it's to the point where like, you know, we have the laps brand and whoever goes and represents us, that's, that's who we are, but yeah.

Oh, it makes a good point about scalability because you know you never know like where your business is going to go are you going to try to do like multiple production crews within one name are you going to branch out into other areas like say you did like distribution but you also did post-production or production so yeah it's all very interesting points and film I find is it's such a team thing like it's yeah, and it's different like Obviously there are people who work alone and they can still produce and do content and I'm always so impressed But I know just how hard it must be honestly, you know as you kind of grow and get bigger It's like the crews get bigger and it's just uh the stress it's a lot of stress yeah and it's a lot of different categories and departments and things

and it's just like there's a lot of things you have to uh you know manage and do well for sure yeah you basically become limited as a as a solo business owner right there's only so much you could do so you're limited in scalability that's why with the people we brought on that are solo business owners they do mention that like it's nice to see that like at least we're a partnership because we can like share the load and that definitely has its benefits too right because i can only imagine who we're doing this on our own like i don't even think we turn it into a business i think we just stay as freelancers right oh I couldn't do it on my own like I actually think about that like I know couldn't do it on my own like no way there's just too many there's just too much and like I find um with our uh partnership with myself Chris

and Mike everyone has like a little bit of you know different categories that they handle and then you sort of band together and everyone has different skills but at the same time we're still quite aligned with like the morals and where we want the company to go so it's just like whenever I hear a friend that's starting a business alone I'm always like I don't know if I could do that like I'm so impressed because it's it's really the team like I think it's the secret sauce is the team and having different people handle the things that they're best at and working together and then becoming like stronger as a unit. You were very lucky to start with everyone from day one, which is, which is great.

And especially with so many people at the beginning, you know, sometimes I think to myself, oh, it would be, it would have been interesting if we knew other people that wanted to kind of like work together from the very beginning. You know, whereas Dara and I were literally starting from square one with a business. So we were learning the industry as we went. But one really cool thing I noticed from what I saw on your website was that each of your team members have different types of roles, both on production and off production, which I haven't seen at many other companies. You know, you have your sound guy who's also essentially doing editing and a lot of the post-production for you guys uh we have your um i think your cinematographer who's

also one of the key business people as well like everyone has separate like several different roles to play in so like how did you guys kind of come up with that structure oh it's interesting it's it's almost something that happened organically because I think Play wanted to be something where like a client or you can come to us and you want a video done and we can help with ideas, we can help with concepts, we work with mostly agencies now and like nowadays, where a concept is brought to us. And it's a much more, it's a bigger, more formal process. But back in the day, we might whip up a concept for somebody when it was direct source. And then you've got like production and service days, we'll call it where we're out and we're shooting. But then

there's also that downtime where there's like huge post-production needs of like editing, sound, mixing. And it's just like, it just kind of keeps growing the workload, I guess, if that makes sense. And I think that we strategically hire people like number one on personality, that's so important, like who you're going to work with day to day, long shoot days, things like that. And I think we've been super lucky that our team is still small everyone's got a great personality and then like many skills and if there's something that like if you're working with us and you have an interest in getting into like Ruben from our team is doing more animation and he's been learning and evolving and advancing with that

so like we want to make it so that you can add more skills and i don't know if that's because we're in saskatchewan and we have a different film market than other places but it's like everyone's just really happy to have full-time employment we're you know booked consistently so we're very lucky but then it's also like you have to be grinding and like getting that work done for sure what about the two of you do you find you have a division of labor or how does that work? Well, we like, well, at this stage, we're pretty much splitting everything like 50, 50. Like there's obviously like some, I mean, for certain projects, maybe one of us might just take it on and handle that and then hire the freelancers to be able to get that done or just do it in house. But I think we're at the stage where we are kind of just splitting things pretty evenly.

It's more so to kind of make it where like if one of us needs to step into another one's project for whatever reason, we're able to do it. We basically essentially kind of built ourselves as like two sustainable, like kind of like mini companies almost within or like two crews kind of kind of set up, you know, so like I would be working on maybe like three to five client projects,

Dario would be working on three to five client projects. And then we have certain, you know, business admin and like business development roles and skills that we basically split up as well. Like who handles what, who handles this, we work collaboratively. But but yeah essentially like the business has to run whether one of us is in case one of us is like not available or something like that as well but but going forward i think with so many companies that we've been speaking to we're kind of getting an understanding of what kind of uh infrastructure we would have to have internally so we would need to like as soon as like the work gets to the point where we just can't we just need another person to help us out with it yeah we'll probably need to bring on

different people like a uh i think a full-time editor would be our first logical step and then from there like a project coordinator and then just expanding it from there yeah we are we are thinking about who to yeah we are thinking about who to start adding we're not at point yet, but that's definitely how we're going to be doing things as well. But I like how yours like everyone has a versatile role. And as and as a result, they do get a good career growth within it because they can learn different skill sets. Right. Because normally when you think about how how people are at other companies it's kind of they have their role and that's kind of pretty much it kind of constrained within that but luckily within yours they're able to go into like different sections of the business and kind of pick up

different skills oh yeah and i will i didn't realize when you two were explaining when you go to shoot a project are you going solo or how does it work on shoot day so we'll go we'll go together um it it'll depend like um i'm if we're doing it together i'll do more of the producing and then we'll put the same director hat on i guess we'll share that and then carol focus more on cinematography that's if we're on the same shoot but if we're on separate shoots like we'll just both be producers and we'll bring our cinematographers and whatever else we need yeah like it all depends on how busy we are if it's like a if it's like a time if it's not too hectic like within a certain week and both

of us can can take on that role that's what we'll do and as dario mentioned we typically co-direct a lot of our projects together but we have like different other smaller roles that we do on set day to make sure we get things executed right we obviously bring on other people if we need you know like other shooters makeup audio etc um but yeah like if for example we have two shoots on the same day we got a crew up separately so that's that's kind of how we've set ourselves up. Okay. No, that's very interesting. I like hearing different, like there's a million ways to do, I feel, a million ways to do things in the art world for sure, right? Like you can, whatever works for you and your clients. And for us, like it's sort of, I've had the opportunity to direct for the last like 10 or so years. I've had the opportunity to direct for the last like 10 or so years. And it's, it's even cool to hear people talking about co directing and different things. Whereas I find with directing sometimes, just because it is like, the workload that's involved with like, sort of, we'll call it like managing or getting that project brought to life. You know, you kind of are, yeah, you have to take time to appreciate all the people on your team that are

coming and bringing things. And then you're sort of looking, okay, this is the bigger picture and what we want. But it would, it would be interesting to try, yeah, co-directing or things where you're collaborating with someone depending on, yeah, depending on the size. I would say when it comes to co-directing, I don't think it's, it's an approach that works for everyone, you know, like, because one, sometimes you are going works for everyone, you know, like, because one, sometimes you are going to butt heads, you know, especially if you have slightly different ideas or visions, you know, but the main thing is you have to just communicate very clearly with the other person. And I feel like there has to be kind of like a chemistry that works between the

two people for it to work. I mean, that's why like the Coen brothers work so well, right? Cause they, they, they just been doing it together for so long. That's kind of how Dario and I, you know, developed creatively with a lot of our projects, you know, where we definitely, I mean, like, don't, don't get it wrong. We definitely butted heads along the way as well, but you get to the point where you kind of understand, I think it was that probably happened a lot because we weren't doing proper pre-production, but once we figured that step out, like we both had the same vision for the project and, you know, oftentimes when like you're on set or maybe you're editing,

you're in the post-production stage, you might not realize, you might be looking at the projects too much that you don't realize what like some things just aren't working or maybe you're not noticing something so it's good to have that secondary perspective as well yeah oh yeah it's like a filter it's like another filter that we were able to to pass through it's like if it doesn't make it past one of us you know that's that's when it's like okay if it's not going to get past one of us then it's not going to get past anyone i mean obviously for other people it might be fine but for us you know we have a certain standard of what we

want. And at the end of the day, we're just trying to get like the project done. Right. So we are trying to get like, like, I don't think we, we done well, done well. I don't think we try to step on each other's foot just to say like, okay, at least I got my input in there. Like they got the shot I wanted. That's never going to end up in post, but at least I put my foot down over there. It's kind of like, okay, does it serve it serve the project like how are we doing on time do we have enough time to get this like do we need to get other shots that are more important than this and that's kind of how we we just communicate to each other it's like okay i feel like it's more technical if anything like the way we have to communicate as well when we're both co-directing because it's

like okay like the the creative is that basically right and like once we're getting that it's like okay we can get a bunch of these shots but how many can we actually get considering that we only have like a day to get everything right do we need to move on like is this that necessary like and the other thing is pushback some uh is actually good sometimes because you know if you're by yourself deciding everything and no one is telling you like or asking you about certain ideas that you're thinking of it's like then how do you know if those ideas are going to work or not work sometimes right so it prompts the discussion between the two of us like if dario comes to me with an idea it's like hey i was thinking this

uh how do you think it'll play for this project then i'll say like i think it's good uh maybe what if we tried it a little bit like this instead, or, you know, vice versa, if I gave him an idea, and he's like, okay, let's, let's try to adapt that to this style or something like that. It's a it's a very collaborative way to work. But again, it really depends on the two people. It's not for everyone. Oh, yeah, well, it just speaks to the chemistry you two have. So like, you should be very proud that you're able to do that. And you're both so aligned, because it's, uh, yeah, there's a lot of different ideas when it comes to creative projects, right, different approaches, or, you know, like, sometimes there's maybe even too many options, I find, and you have to just like, you know, narrow things down or go for like, what the client's brand or um yeah there's a lot that goes into like the decisions that are made for sure but yeah i mean like especially with us like it it works out too because carol's like main dp he's got like an amazing creative like

with the visuals like usually if he wants to get a shot i just go like okay he knows what he's doing he's got the better eye for that so go ahead right so we we kind of split it that way too like i yeah we know how to you know how to let each other work we know how to know each other's skills too right like each other's skill set because usually if we're like i'm trying to think of like if we have like uh if we hit a stump, it would probably be like, okay, there's like a visual element we need to get, but maybe like story wise, we need to get this instead. So it doesn't mesh well with that. So that's when we would probably like talk it out over there just to figure out what the best approach would be. clients on set with you or how does that work because i'm thinking like yeah i have a lot of you know interaction with clients on set as well as sort of what we're you know agency plus clients so it's it's definitely it is collaborative because sometimes we're doing something and then a request comes in and we try something else or you do a couple different versions so it's really about like options and being able to do multiple even multiple versions of the same thing to make

sure that everybody on the creative team that could be two or it could be five like I've worked in a lot of different um worked with a lot of different configurations for sure so it keeps you flexible though yeah and I mean yeah and when we when you do have the client on set you do want them involved to the degree where they can offer their input I would say like so like when we, when you do have the client on set, you do want them involved to the degree where they can offer their input, I would say, like, so like when we are getting our shots and everything, we are showing it to them saying like, this is, this is what we're going for, right? Like we're all on the same page for this before we move on. And because oftentimes you find like, oh, actually like, you know, we can't, we can't get that part of the product or whatever. So just getting their input while they're on set is so valuable.

So I guess that's when we put on our producing hats and just like do client relations at the same time, right? Yeah. Oh, yeah. And the good thing about it is that because there's two of us there, a lot of the time, while one of us is even talking to the client, the other one can kind of keep the production moving smoothly as well. You know, whereas if you're both producing and directing at the same time, you know, you have to pause, talk to the client, make sure everything's good,

and then continue kind of thing. So that I mean, I never thought of it like that. But you know, that is another benefit as well that that comes from having two of us there as well. Oh, yeah, it's like at the end of the day, I always think, you know, if the client isn't happy, if the agency isn't happy, like they're the ones that are, you know, they're hiring you, it's often competitive for bigger projects. So they've chosen, you know, your production company for a reason. So I find that the last shoot I was on, it was a great, it was like just an awesome experience. And, you know, you have those experiences because you put in 10 years of training and like being, being able to be the person that people can throw something at, at you on set.

And you're like, okay, I can do that. Or sure, let's do an option or this isn't working. Let's fix it. And you can move and think really fast and you can provide for people what they want. But sometimes, you know, I'll go over on different shoots and I'll be like, so what do people think? And then in the early years, there was, um, you know, you have to earn that trust. And I definitely know what it's like to go through that and, and different experiences, different personalities. And then now it's almost sometimes like I'll kind of go and then I'm quiet and then people kind of look at me and then we both look at each other and I'm like what do you think they're

like oh what do you think I'm like I don't know should I do another it's like it's a night but it's it's actually a beautiful moment because it's it's people um it's a feeling of being trusted and they're feeling good you're feeling good no one's there's there aren't things coming up that anyone's upset about and I just find that like, the more years you go in production, it makes me really happy that I feel people are happy on set. Everyone's feeling good. People like what we got. Sure. Why don't you do another? Or can you do one without his hat on? Like, it's just, it's those little things now. Whereas in the early years, I think, Oh, for video production people, it's like the learning to lead, but then also take feedback. And that's, I think, something that is, it takes time.

Like it definitely took time for me and what that fine line, that balance is. with different agencies or different creative directors, different clients, it's always beneficial when I've worked with them before because you learn the way people like things or personalities or even structures or how they like to work. And then I'll work another week later with a different agency, a different client, and it's just different vibes

and different ways of doing things. So sometimes I remind myself, okay, this is how we're doing it for this client and this agency. And then another week it's, you know, there's no right way to do it. It's just, it's different ways of working. So I like that. I like for a while to remind it.

Yeah. Yeah. And you have to really adapt. Yeah. Yeah. Sometimes I have the, do you guys have this conversation where people be like, how do you like to work?

And I'll say, how do you like to work? And I'll say, how do you like to work? And it's like, I have a lot of those because I'm like, I'm here to be flexible for you. So you can work with me in whatever way you need. And like, do you need me to do this? Do you want more presentations? Do you want like, what's the way you want to go? And then it's always interesting now that yeah, I just have all these like funny conversations with people now where it's like, oh, you, no, you. And it's, we just laugh, but it's, yeah. What do you find you have that where, or I don't know, other companies or other directors might be more like,

this is how I always do it. Whereas I enjoy, I really enjoy variety. And I like, I see multiple ways to do things. And I like doing things differently depending on the scenario. I think that way, like, I never understood that question when we've been asked that, like, how do you like the work? It's like, I don't know. I just, I just work.

I don't know what that means. I just do what I do. Does anybody out there have a good, maybe somebody out there has a good answer? Because when I get asked, I always just say it back to them and then it's like I don't know like you like to yeah I don't know you like dogs a very big question you're just going I don't know just sign the contract let's get this started also like I can tell people are being thoughtful when they ask because they're trying to like accommodate to you know potentially things you might need from them. But I find the one thing like and I don't know what you're the two of you have.

where you're at with that because I would say every year Play Creative's grown like there is more more presentations there's more like they get longer they're more complicated if the work is more complex I'm laying out specific certain clients and agencies want to see a lot of details others don't want to so it's it's interesting even just the way that like I can still be doing a presentation but I'm catering it. Yeah, every project's different, right? We are focusing a lot more on that in terms of like proposals and briefs. It's always evolving. Like I think with the guests we've been talking to this year, it's really got our mind going. We're like, okay, we really got to sit down and figure this one out. But I think each time we do one, we're getting closer and closer. But yeah, like what you were going on about,

that's pre-production, right? It is the most important part of the video production process. So it has to be as detailed as possible. And, you know, when you're dealing with bigger budgets, they are going to get longer and more detailed because they have to because otherwise you'll end up in with a lot of problems in production and you know post-production as well and once you get to into issues in those two stages like oof that's a you know that's a whole other uh it's supposed to be problems you don't want to deal with it's supposed to be straightforward in the production and post stages i'd say production should be the easiest technically. Post-production is second and then pre-production is the main one. Once you have everything very detailed, then everything else should run smoothly.

Because if there are some issues that come in later, then that very much indicates, oop, there was a mistake made in pre-production that wasn't covered. And mistakes happen all the time. you know, small things fall through the cracks and the key as a business owner is to solve those, uh, solutions and make the experience as, as seamless and, and smooth for the client, you know, at the end of the day, you know, the customer experience is the most important thing, you know, you know, if you, if you dwell on the, the, the things that happen, uh, you know know like from pre to post then they're they're not going to have a good time and then you want to try to avoid that

oh yeah i think we all know sounds like the importance of pre-production like getting just thinking through different options working out all the kinks and then yeah production will run smooth and And it's even like, you're mentioning mistakes where I was even thinking, well, sometimes it's just things come up or something that was discussed before comes up. And I think that's why being flexible, like mentally flexible as a filmmaker, I think is just, it's really important because sometimes even production people like ourselves get attached to ideas or clients get attached to ideas and it's like, oh yeah, it's taken, like it's been,

you know, it's taken time for me to like, sometimes there's something you're just so in love with and it's, it's gone and you just move on, like let it go, move on. And that's something that takes time to do or something that you're not sure if it's going to work out. And then you do it. And oh, it did work. But it's also like, um, I think, sometimes just dropping, like, maybe it's a deep sense of ego that you don't even realize that you might think something should be a certain way, or you want to try something or someone else is bringing a very strong opinion and it's like yeah is this coming from what you think is best or is this an ego thing like like I just always try to think about like at the end of the day you know someone can just throw you a suggestion and maybe it's something that 10 people in pre-production never

even thought of so like I'm always very interested to see that like sometimes uh yeah it's so interesting the way some ideas are born or or someone drops something like if it's comedy someone I love doing comedy and someone will drop something and it's like let's go with it or let's do a little more improvising and so it's like yeah it's fun it's fun to be able to play a little bit on set for sure I think when you when you start doing more of the business side of video production, that being able to adapt becomes a lot easier to do. Because when you're just when you're starting out, and you're doing, you are doing some business, but you are mostly being the creative, you are getting emotionally attached to the ideas and this or that. But then once you start becoming like

more of the producer and like the business owner you just start to see things from a different perspective where you're just like okay that idea just didn't make the cut whatever like let's cut that how do we make this work and we could there's probably another project we'll do anyways we could test it out then you just put it like back in the bag of ideas but because i noticed before i would say like 21 we were we were kind of like that you know if we had an idea and like maybe then make the cut we'd be like a little upset about that or like if it's getting changed while it's being shot it's like ah it was supposed to be like this or you know maybe client didn't like it like damn it but it was you know like they should have gone with it but after we started really focusing on developing the business and everything, it's just we

adapted such a different mindset that like the creative side is important, but it's like you're trying to manage it with the business, you know, left, right, left, left brain, right brain type of thing. So it's like, it's got to work. And it's like, at the end of the day, you are running a business. So everything has to serve that, right? Because otherwise, like, sure, you could get your idea across, like you want it, but then you might lose a client out of it, or the video might not turn out good. And it's like, you just shot yourself in the foot doing that. You need to compromise, like compromising is, is, is is very necessary and i like what you said being mentally

flexible uh that unfortunately is not a skill that can be taught is only a skill that can be learned by by doing things you know like uh like in in film school i'm sure everyone tells you yeah the director is the king you know they make all the decisions that we have little do they not tell people is that they're executive producers and brands and companies that are pumping money and saying yeah you see that you see that coca-cola can it has to be in that scene you know i know i know it didn't exist in uh the western times but you know that can has to be in there and it's it's that being able to um go with the flow sometimes right or a shirt color like i remember a time a few years ago where like i feel like maybe i'd be like attached to

the color of a sweater or something specific like that and it's been like just even my own the own artist in me training myself to be like well you know what like yes you might have a preference or something you thought might be better but then um the other day we were doing a scene and there was a lot of white and we i actually have like specific things like i have rules of like what i don't like to see on camera for like wardrobe for example and those are things that if you work with different crew or different places maybe as a director you develop those and you you bring those to different people or for tone what you want to see and then it was like uh i usually i'm not like super keen personally stylistically on white like people wearing white shirts and so then it was this like all white

scene and someone was like well she does have a white blouse and i was like oh that could be really cool because it's all white on white and we never do that. So that got me excited. And then later, you know, it's like a discussion and people are like, seems really weird that it'd be that much white. And in my head, I'm like, yes. And usually I would think that too. But then this month now, I think it might be cool to try it. So like creatively, I think it's important, um, to also like open up your own like little rules that you work within, because sometimes now I want to do things that we don't typically do, or you haven't done before, if that makes sense. So it's almost like breaking

your own rules sometimes and like being like, well, this could be cool for a certain look, right? So that's why I always tell people like, I'm sure like both will be good or we've narrowed it down i feel good about both what do you think it's preference to you're gonna pick a certain top you're gonna pick a certain top because it's also your own life experience that you bring to your decisions right so i always find it very fascinating the way that things happen yeah you have to break your own rule i mean if, if even if you if you do have rules that you follow, you do have to break, break them occasionally. Otherwise, like, you'll, you'll never evolve, right? Or you'll always constrain yourself, you never know,

like, maybe like just breaking that one rule, like, teaches you another one, you know, it's like creative appetite, like deepening your creative appetite and being like, um, also to, I should say, being aware of what you're making, like what's the tone of what you're making, what's the feeling you want the audience to have. So like sometimes I say, no, I never liked doing that or I, I stay away from that. But then for this project or this is more dramatic. So I actually want to do this. And then people will be like, oh, but you usually don't like that. But then for this project, or this is more dramatic. So I actually want to do this. And then people will be like, Oh, but you usually don't like that. Well, but this is a bit of a

different genre, like drama is very different than comedy. And so it's like, it's like really knowing what you're making is sometimes what I'm loosening up and trying to be like, okay, what's going to work for what we're making? What works for the client? What's the feeling? And then if you let that lead you, right? So that's like you gotta go a couple years right you gotta like every couple years you're learning more right it's hard to just come into video and know you know everything you want to do like I think even 30 years from now hopefully you know we'd all be sitting here saying like even more of the things you learn, right? On episode like 3093. Please have me back. I want to be back on that episode. We'll write it down. The 3053. We'll do that. Take note. I can't wait.

We actually started to introduce a new segment to the show where we look at uh we have uh questions that other guests or viewers um have been wanting to see here here see yeah because you know we we like to kind of let the conversations go and see where it goes with uh each of our guests experiences you, because everyone has a different story, which is always interesting to see. But we want to also ask like a few questions that, you know, some people typically are like, oh, I want to know a little bit more about, you know, proposals or like how to manage teams and things like that. So Dario, like what were some of the questions that have been asked? So I don't know if this segment is going to make the cut on the on the pod but let's let's see if you haven't tried it out we're trying it out

we're trying it out it's the first time this is from anonymous um first question is how do you deal with difficult clients oh this is you know um i'd like to start by saying Play Creative has no difficult clients. I was going to say. So that's because we have all our clients. But let's, okay, and to be honest, I think the longer you're in film and the more you work with, the more you kind of climb up to different, say like bigger budgets than we were doing five years ago. I've noticed a trend that we do today, get to work with a lot

of great people because they're awesome at what they do as well. They've earned, you know, these big brands they're bringing you in. Like I find, I actually find for me, I think every year gets better. That's sort of how I feel. Like, I think nothing's harder than when you first start out and it's such a grind, but back a few years ago, like, yeah, everybody would be lying if they said they've never had difficult clients. And I think that when I've had those experiences, it's, it's really, you have to remember that, like, look, it's a little bit of like psychology, like look at the nature of the comments, where it's coming from. If someone has been saying to you from the start that they want specific things and you're

not delivering, you have to also look at like, are you listening? Are you doing what you're asked? Are you actually just kind of doing whatever you want? And they've been very clear with you, but then now you're like, oh, right. So it's sometimes like, what's the role you're playing in it? Or, um, look at different personalities. Like sometimes I think is somebody frustrated because they don't feel like they're being heard? Is somebody frustrated because maybe they've put some ideas forward earlier that didn't go through. And so I always just look at the, it's like, treat it just like if you're in school

or if you're out socializing, like how, like how you work and become a people person that applies to pretty much anything you ever do. Right. So sometimes it's a matter of like, somebody really wanted to see something and it got eliminated. And then now maybe they're picking a strong opinion on something. I'll also try to be like, oh, okay, this person, you know, this person got a couple things. This person hasn't gotten anything. So comment comes in. I really try to address it because I think it is important for like clients to feel heard at the end of the day. I think that's sometimes where it comes from. Like, yeah, I don't know. And I don't know the nature of like how extreme people are getting, but I often find if I ever had difficult comments, it's, it's really, you just

got to like slow down and realize at the end of the day, like, yeah, just really listen to the comment and then see what you can do. And sometimes like maybe something rude is said to someone, but it's like, don't just don't take things too personally. That's sort of my long-winded answer, right? And everyone's human. People get, especially in the creative world, people, like we talked about, get attached to things. Or people have some idea of what they thought it would be before they hired you to come in and make it, right?

So it's, yeah, I can definitely handle it better every year I go. But it honestly happens less and less, you know, you have to talk to them. You have to talk to them essentially. Uh, like I remember the one thing I learned recently was that sometimes you just have to simply talk it out with them. If they have certain comments on things, especially things that you think won't work, sometimes even just talking to them and letting them know the reason why you made a decision uh like on that video like that specific section why you did it like that uh kind of makes them understand a little bit where you're coming from and then

they're like oh okay i like that you know never mind on what i said and but sometimes they might be like as you said no i still kind of want to do it like that great you know you let them know and then you just make those changes if need be that's when the business side comes in right yeah producer hat you're like okay this is your video at the end of the day so my professional recommendation is not to do that but if you want like yeah we could do that no problem right but i i think you were right even with what you said like it doesn't really happen as much like the more years you've been in business. Cause by that point you've become good at vetting and also noticing red flags. So I think if you are getting a client where you're getting, they are being that difficult,

I think it's just a matter of, you might need to, you know, be better at selecting your clients. Right. Cause we haven't had, we haven't had an issue, like, like a serious issue with difficult clients since, since the early days, I would say, like, every one of our clients has been pretty chill, like, no problems, like, we'd love to work with them all the time. But yeah, if you are in that situation, and I guess if you go through your route of communicating through them properly, but it's still difficult, like no client should really cause stress and anxiety for you. If they cause that, especially once you're experienced, if that's happening, just drop it. Like you're not an employee, you're an employee, like you have your own business. You can decide

who you want to work with, right? That's the benefit of going into business for yourself, right? And why, why cause yourself like pain and suffering? And that's the benefit of going into business for yourself right and why why cause yourself like pain and suffering and that's in that case you know and even when uh just the two of you were talking another thought i had is um and it's not to throw shade on those of us in the production world but i'll even get comments as I've come along where people mention to me like and you know it's always horrible because you hope they're not saying stuff they didn't like about working with you but I've had the odd comment over the years about things people didn't like from other companies and what like bothered or upset them and I think that something

I've heard just in the clients I am close with and the relationships you build is I know that it doesn't for any video production, people listening, your clients don't want you to be condescending to them. Like no one likes when video people think they just know everything or they know better because it's like, yes, you may be the one, you know, where the sculptors, our hands are making it. But it's like, I've had so many clients confide in me just talking about like, just the way they're spoken to the way they're addressed. Like if you make your client feel stupid, guess what? Like they're not going to hire you. Like it's, it can be, you can be so talented, but if you make people feel bad, which you might not realize you're doing in other ways, like teach people, explain,

or even to this day, someone might say something to me and you know what? Sometimes I just say, okay, sure. Let's try one. Cause I'm not there to like, I'm not there to criticize you or make you feel bad. And then you're not going to want to come to me with good ideas or good suggestions or like work well with me. And then you're going to tear my stuff apart. So sometimes I just hear stuff and I say like, let's try it. Let's do it. Let's do one. I'll do another option, like whatever, you know, sometimes you have to, yeah. Educating clients is so key because again, they're not familiar with your space, right? Like the video production industry. We really noticed this when we were focusing on rebuilding our website and making it SEO friendly and creating blog posts for that. That's when we

really realized, wait, no one really outside of our industry, they don't really understand what the hell pre-production is production post-production. So we've, we've gone out of our way to, we're still working on like resources for clients and, you know, we try to explain everything in a very detailed way, just so like they understand what, what it is like that we're doing. Right. Like maybe they might not be interested in it, but I think a lot of them do value that we, we offer to explain like what, how a video is something as simple as how a video is made, you know, like.

It's transparency. It like, honestly the one thing about our industry is that there's a lot of like, I always say gatekeepers of information, you know, like there's not as much transparency. So like we've tried to kind of be as open with our clients, you know, let them know, like, this is the process. This is, this is how long it takes to do certain things because we need to figure out this, this, and this. If we don't do that, then we're going to have issues in later stages. I've even had calls with potential leads where they've wanted to do something with a very unrealistic timeline. And I said, look, we can't help you with this, but I recommend, you know, you take the time to do this because if you don't,

you're going to suffer later. And if any other production company, as Dario likes to put it, if there's ever a production company that tells you that, yes, we can do it. Ten videos in two days. Yes, we can do it. Those people are lying to you. I always tell Carol, make sure you put that in the email reply. They're lying to you. They are lying to you. Either that or they're inexperienced or they're people who just started. Because I remember when we first started out, yes, yes is going out in every email you know for the first year well that that gets into when you said saying yes and it gets into um oh you know too it's also like

it's a very fine line of like wanting to please the client and the agency and do everything they're asking of you so I find that that's also a very difficult dance where you're being respected you're having great collaborative conversations but sometimes it's like yes yes yes yes yes yes yes and then you just have this list of like a million things you need to do or provide so I find if anything I think yeah it's like always sadder when I never want to like let a client down is more like the thing I'm more worried about today versus them picking a fight with me. It's more about like, I'll always remember someone let me, for a project we did casting, I got to cast a wider net than usual, we'll call it and look at some, you know, different provinces. we'll call it and look at some, you know, different provinces. And I remember someone saying like, Hey, listen, like you've got this, go have fun, do your casting and just like, find me the best. And it's always those comments that it's like, Oh my goodness. Like I know they're really, they're spending a lot of money. They're trusting you to go out with the casting

director and just bring back some things you like. And it's just like, it's comments like that, where it's, you really earned these clients that are amazing and are literally saying to you, we want to go big and this is how we're going to do it. And we're going to let you bring that to life. And that's like, it's so enjoyable to do that. But then I also, it's that pressure of like, I really want to give them what they're looking for. If that makes sense. Like it's that pressure of like, sometimes I work with clients that I think are so great and agencies that are so great that I'm like, I don't want to disappoint you.

Like I know how much money you're spending on this ad. So like at the end of the day, like it's going to get done and it's going to get done well. And I used to hear the expression directors are hired guns. I don't know if you've ever heard that. Yeah. And I used to be like, I are hired guns. I don't know if you've ever heard that. Yeah, I've heard that. And I used to be like, I don't really follow like why or what that is. And then it's like only in these recent years, I've been like, you know, for me, it kind of represents the like, you're there to get the stuff done no matter what. done no matter what so even if a shoot was starting to fall apart or weird things were starting to happen like you're there to like guarantee the shots are going to get in the can

and results are going to get there so there's also this side of especially with directing where it's like you're there to make sure they like get what they want at the end of the day and I kind of I love that but it's also like sometimes there's that pressure to just you want to perform because there's like yeah the projects are getting bigger as the years go on and so it's like it's come a long way from when we used to do like 300 videos was year one for play creative like we worked out of a living room and we did i negotiated with someone and they brought me down to like 300 bucks and it's just sad so we still did the video, you know,

still worked on it for a hundred hours or whatever. So there you go. Essentially those, uh, those clients, when they're, when they're putting that much investment into you and your team, like the, the comfort that I have when that happens is that, you know, they've, they've, they trust me. They see, uh, they see me and Dario as like the, the, the problem solvers who will take care of everything. I mean, I know how many times, you know, when we've hired editors where, you know, we can trust them to do the job really well. We give them the direction and then just let them go with it, right?

The last thing we want to do is to be there micromanaging them, right? And, you know, having that dynamic with your clients is very important because then it's not as stressful because they're not breathing down your neck. The last thing you want is the client emailing you every day being like, so what's happening with this? So what's happening with this? And you can't have a moment to think because it's almost like being interrupted, right? It's a collaborative effort. And one thing I actually wanted to kind of touch upon also, I know we're a little bit over our time at this point, but, um, you mentioned you work a lot with ad agencies,

uh, specific, at least at this point. Right. Um, I know how it is, you know, creating the, the first few drafts of revisions for the clients, but, you know, you're going through a few filters, you're going through the ad agency filter, and then you're going through the client filter. So how does that, how do you guys manage that process? And, you know, managing expectations when it comes to like either three or 10 deliverables? Right, right. No, it's a good question. And I even think of Chris, one of my business partners, he produces, but he also edits and you know, it's, I would say people are pretty good at consolidating feedback. So I also think it's like when we talked about levels and different tiers of work, I think that a few years ago, it definitely could be like an edit could, you know, turn into, I call it like mutate, like different mutations.

And it, you know, changes. But I think, so it's like, we've all seen that, right? And then I think we just did, again, a recent project, agency came in to view it, they left, oh, it felt so good. They left smiling and happy, you know, a couple little adjustments, but it's like, we've maintained a vision and a goal from day one. It's been communicated. It's been delivered. We put it out, but that can't like, not every project can be as perfect as that. So I feel like I'm coming off like some really awesome experiences lately, like even in the last six months. But sometimes I think too, it's also like, you have to look at the client and the agency's experience, because I think if people aren't as experienced with visuals coming to life and then editing is now taking visuals and attaching them so it's sequential.

And I would say that I try to remind myself that like not everyone's going to be like visually there with you. So then sometimes it's like, well, we've talked about it, but then now people aren't sure. And it's like, but then you're kind of sometimes paid to be there to have a vision, to pre-visualize things, to lay things out for people. And then I think it's kind of their right that sometimes people see something or like, um, I talk about like editing flow and it's sometimes you just like something because it flows, feels good but that flow is different to every filmmaker different to every editor and it's like sometimes a client's going to come in and they're just or agency and they're going to make changes but at the end of the day

it's like that that's it I don't I don't know it's tricky right because editing there's uh we had a different project um the last month where there's many ways it could go but it's coming down to is the brand comfortable with going a little more comical or is the brand comfortable with going a little more uh playful I call it versus comedy and so it's not that we're doing anything in the edit suite that isn't working it's that like sometimes there's actually multiple the edit suite that isn't working. It's that like, sometimes there's actually multiple ways a project could go. So I don't know if that really gives an answer. And maybe you two have dealt with more, some editing issues, but I find the bigger the project, the fewer editing revisions is what we typically experience. And sometimes it's just

even smaller projects will do where somebody somewhere had a bit of an idea and you didn't quite nail what they wanted and those are the projects where there aren't presentations it's a lower budget it's just a whole different a whole different game yeah that's the thing yeah that's how it is like with the bigger ones like you'll have less revision just because you can't i agree you can't you can't afford the extra revision people kind of know what they're getting we've all been like you have to think to the team you're with is experienced your experience people know what they're getting whereas I think if I think back sometimes people are like it's their department it's a direct source with a client and they just don't maybe feel it

was quite what they thought so then they come in with more auth client and they just don't maybe feel it was quite what they thought so then they come in with more authorship and they want things different and it's like well you know at the end of the day it's a video they need or they want to use and sometimes too people don't know what they want until they see it and that's something that can go for any um category in production like it's in you know you can be very detailed in pre-production you can communicate the every last detail of it and then when they finally see it it's like oh i actually had something else in mind but but we didn't communicate that wasn't communicated or sometimes this is where the contract helps you because basically in your contract you should clearly

state and you need to communicate this to the client before they sign that and also in pre-production and in the proposal that basically look you get like for example one major change and you get like two to three minor edits and then anything on top of that you just start billing right you just do like one thing we're going to start doing is after the the third minor revision extra, if it's like a minor revision, we're going to charge 15 to 25% of the total post-production costs. And then if it's a major one, it's 50% of the post-production costs, right? So that's how we're going to start going about things in the future. And as long as we communicate that properly to the client, and as long as like the deliverables we present, like don't have any issues on our side,

I think that should be fine. That's a good, cause normally when that question comes up, it's because, and we've had other companies come on that like have dealt with similar issues. It usually becomes a question of, do I charge the client for these extra revisions? Cause it's starting to mutate, right? Cause normally at the beginning, if they're a good client, revisions because it's starting to mutate, right? Because normally at the beginning, if they're a good client, you'll do the extra revisions like on the arm, but it will get to a point. It does sometimes get to a point where you're like, okay, I'm starting to lose money on the post-production side of things. And you know, my profits are shrinking with this. Yeah. It's very interesting you bring that up. And now I understand more like the nature of the question because I'll

say in our company's journey we let's go back a few years there were like several mutations of edits probably like definitely losses in editing for multi-revisions like you're discussing but we actually and it's just our company's choice we actually um we're aware that other companies charge for extra edits and it's not something that we actually decided we were going to do and i don't know if it's like the way the universe works but i feel like we sort of graduate into i will call it you know every year getting those bigger projects and now we don't charge extra we don't even have the issues as often other than if someone says hey you're providing one and then they like it

and they go we're gonna do an online one minute yeah that may be like a you know an additional cost but i would it would be like not fair for me to say we had the same discussions and some similar experiences but we chose not to and that only came from the fact that we had some people confide in us on the client or agency side that the irritation of the bill just getting like ballooning on them after they've locked in a budget. So it's something that I would say it's going to be interesting if you ask a lot of people that because I know the business reason and the why but then sometimes I feel like relationships are so important and sometimes it's like get that good relationship with people and so many problems disappear because the relationship is strong so I don't know it might be different

in Toronto too with different clients like there might be more um you're having new and different clients where we're having new and different clients where we're experiencing some larger consistent clients that become like, you really get to know one another. So I think you have to look at your market, but I, I definitely know, I know exactly what you're talking about. And I think a lot of video people have gone through the, it's just like the leaky bucket in post finance. Yeah. It's, it's, it makes sense. Like it varies obviously from client to client, you know, and like you said, relationships are key at the end of the day. You don't want to you don't want to ruin those relationships. The, the, the thing that Daria

and I are talking about more so are things that go beyond what was probably reasonable of where the project should have been completed. Right. You know, typically if you do like three to five revisions, most projects like a hundred percent of the time should, or 99% of the project should have been completed, right? You know, typically if you do like three to five revisions, most projects like 100% of the time should, or 99% of the time should be perfectly ready to go from that if you've done the pre-production, right? Those things are in there because those ideas for additional revisions are in there,

you know, because sometimes there are people within certain organizations where we like to call the extra cooks in the kitchen who want to throw a monkey wrench into the whole thing. Like I, there have been times where like, even like the whole video was pretty much done. Uh, all was needed was one last little adjustment. Then someone said, Oh, what if we changed the song? And then, you know, like just before delivery. And then it's like, okay, now this completely shifts things a little bit. Right. So it's just a matter of, uh, you know, like managing expectations, now this completely shifts things a little bit. Right. So it's just a matter of,

you know, like managing expectations, being very clear upfront, you know, and, you know, again, at the end of the day, you don't want to make things too difficult for your clients. You know, it's more so something, especially with newer clients, you know, people you haven't worked with before, you know, just to kind of be like something to kind of not only protect you, but also to protect the client. You want to make sure that you obviously don't want to start racking up that bill. There are probably companies out there who start adding things without even telling the client, you know, but like the key is to communicate. You don't want to do that either. So, um, it's a form of just like, again, it's a, it's a way to help the, the posts from you from not mutating. Right. Cause if they

don't know about that then they might just keep throwing suggestion after suggestion after suggestion right and again it's up because they don't know how our industry works it's up to us to educate them on that that like look like the video post-production takes a lot of time and resources right so the more changes that need to be made like that's why like another thing we want to implement too is that like for suggestion or for revisions and everything we're starting to give them like a timeline okay start within like 48 hours send us like the bulk of it and everything and then from there it'll take us this many days to go through it because again if you leave that window open then they might send like a suggestion on Monday, another one on Wednesday, a couple on Thursday, and then two weeks later, another one, it'll never end, right?

So again, it's up to us to kind of like funnel the process. So everything kind of goes through the right, I don't know, the right roads or checkpoints. Do you two ever do something where a client or agency or whoever comes in and you have an edit session live? Okay. Okay. Cause I will say again, I, um, I don't do any editing currently. Chris handles all our, like I stopped editing years ago is what I'm trying to say right you just roles change um so I'm rusty for sure but I'll say that um Chris because he is like he's a very very fast editor and he's been doing it for years now um he will have clients come in agencies come in and they'll do something where it's like we'll call it like almost like a presentation or like, here's a first viewing. And I've just noticed that, um, I find that really condenses like revisions because people come live and, and what, um, the deeper meaning can be is sometimes your clients, uh, you know, they maybe want a different take or they want, um, to try something that they ask for, which I can empathize

if I was just giving notes, I would actually feel overwhelmed because it's like, oh, this isn't quite right. And editing isn't like a do this here than this. That's not how my brain sees it as like, it should be of a much more fluid, like feeling type thing that fits together perfectly. So if someone comes in with Chris, and they say, oh, we want a different take, then they try the different take, they realize it didn't work or maybe the focus was soft for a second. All of a sudden now that person's like, oh, nevermind. I like what you had in, or can we try flipping these two shots? And then sometimes you look at it and they're like, no, I don't like it either. So I don't know if it's something you would consider, but I've found that I've had a lot of people tell me how much they like sometimes coming in and being a part

of it. Now that could have a downside because maybe with certain people, it could maybe not be helpful and just drag out and get out of control. Like we're kind of talking about, but I think sometimes when the person is right, someone coming in and sitting with you and seeing or trying a couple of things, I just find save so much time because yeah I don't know if I I think even if I wasn't able to sit down with Chris and we noodle things if I as a director had to just send the editor notes that idea really overwhelms me because I know how much of a like it's sculpting and remolding so I'd like to see and try different things too and as a director when you shoot I know like my brain is doing a live edit of,

there's multiple ways this can cut together, but then the editors, you know, getting that choice of which one they go with. And sometimes I ask for something and then I sit there and I see it and I'm like, you're right, it isn't as good. And that was an idea I had from day one, but the editor gives a, you know, a fresh perspective.

But anyways, it's something to think about only because I know there's also another route is quoting so that you master your quoting so that you have a bigger um you increase a rate for example because you say you know what uh nine out of ten times we're losing so let's increase that post-production fee and then people just I know not everyone likes to see that, but then you bring it up a little, then sometimes there's fewer revisions. Sometimes it's over, you meet in the middle. So you're fine financially, but I just know.

It balances out. That's a smart move. Yeah. Well, you'll do what you think is good, but it's like, I can't sit here and pretend that I've had so many clients. I've had people complain to me about just like hitting costs or all these fees coming in later. And I think it's like anything, if we were going to, you were going to get someone to make a video for you. And then I got hit with this bill of all these after things. I think it becomes, it's really scary for people. So I don't know. Anyways, there's many ways. Let me know what you decide to do. And, you know, also it's like, look at your client, look at the agency and what's going to

work best with those people or those personalities, right? Like maybe you do with certain people need to charge them every revision because that might be the only way to stop, you know, a certain personality. Right. So, yeah, it all varies. And honestly, like this is, this is good discussion, you know, like we're, we're always, we're always trying to kind of like figure out and see what are like the best approaches, you know, with certain aspects of the business or, you know, working with clients, you know, ultimately at the end of the day, we want to make sure the clients are happy and we're trying to figure out different ways so that, you know, the relationship also doesn't get sour on, on either end, you know. You know, that is the most important thing.

And yeah, it varies. Yeah, no, it does. So, and it's tough too. Like it's why it's great that you're asking people and you're both like being open-minded because again, there's like many different ways to even run a production company. And it's just like, I don't know, you know your market best,

you know your clients best and market best, you know, your clients best and what works for you as well. Like we didn't even get into like work life balance. Right. But it's like, you just have to think. Yeah. Yeah. That's episode.

But, um, and, and goals too. Like, what does your company want to be? What kind of like play years ago, we had some ideas of the things we wanted to do. And that meant saying no to things along the way, which seems weird. And we actually just recently said no to a project because it's like, uh, does it fit with your company and where you want to go? And that's like a whole other thing, right? It's not that you can be saying no to projects all the time, but sometimes it's just, it just not a good fit. And you need to look at it, assess it and go, no, we're really booked. And this isn't going to be a good fit. And we know what it's going to take to do this. So you

have to turn it down. But like, it's a luxury to get to that point where you can turn stuff down, because in the beginning, it was like every job just to make it by. Amy, before we end off, why don't you tell us where you guys got the the name from Play Creative? That's it. I think there was oh my goodness, years ago, there was a couple of discussions, a couple of names were thrown around and then geez, I don't want to like I'm pretty sure I was the one that said play,

but now I'm like, I feel like I can't even like claim that 100%. But I remember a discussion about, I think I was saying something about like, you know, Coke is a four letter word and it's easy to remember, like, let's go with something short and simple and everyone had really good points. And then I don't know how like creative got thrown in there because we were worried that people wouldn't know like what it was um and then media got attached on and like the dream was always just to be play like for like we all agreed it should be short easy to remember i don't even know where it came from um but it just sort of was born. But my dream is that one day it will only be those four letters and it will just be play. And then as you get more known,

you can kind of drop the extra words. So, yeah. You're asking a lot from the word play that, that transcends so many industries. You're going to be fighting with people in the gaming industry. you're gonna be fighting with people in the gaming industry yeah and i wish i could sit here and be like um uh play button like on a you know vcr or something but i actually think i actually think i had a nail polish color named play date and i thought that was a unique color name. And then I think my brain like held on to that. And years later, somehow we're spitting out ideas. And

like, I swear that might be it, but I'd have to ask my business partners for sure. But I think it's like, that's the strength of the team when you know, we're trying to start a company and we're deciding what we should do, like, feeling good, like if you're trying to start a company and we're deciding what we should do, like feeling good. Like if you're trying to start a business and you are aligning on the name, you're aligning on goals like that already is so strong, whereas some friends have started businesses and then they've gone their separate ways because it's like, yeah, no, no, your business partner, but also like be a team, like no matter what, be a team, like look out for each other. And that I think is like, just at the end of the day, it's so important, right? Because we're all, you know, just trying to get work done. It doesn't help if you, you know, have any conflict behind the

scenes for sure. Okay. Well, thanks so much, Amy, for coming on the show. It was great. And yeah, we'd love to have you back on. Yeah. Awesome. I can't wait. Episode 3,053. Marketing calendars. There we go. I literally, I'm going to write it down and I'll, yeah, I'll set the date. Next to Kirill and Dario, right? Well, thanks for having me. This was a lot of fun. You guys were a breeze to talk to. So thank you. Thanks for sharing your experiences and, you know, and prompting some really great discussions. We appreciate it. Awesome. Thanks guys. Take care.