Creatives Grab Coffee - The Benefits of Agency Work | Creatives Grab Coffee 63

Episode Date: June 14, 2024

In this conversation, Jeffrey Riley, co-owner of Noble Bison Productions, discusses his experiences working with agencies and the challenges of breaking into the industry. He highlights the benefits of agency work, such as higher budgets and more creative opportunities. Jeffrey also shares his strategies for building relationships with agencies, including follow-up emails and reaching out to new agencies. He emphasizes the importance of having a strong portfolio and suggests taking on passion projects or spec ads to showcase desired work. Overall, Jeffrey encourages filmmakers to be proactive and persistent in pursuing their goals. The conversation revolves around the topic of pricing and budgeting in the creative industry, specifically in the context of video production. The speakers discuss the idea of doing spec work or offering discounted prices to attract clients and build a portfolio. They emphasize the importance of reframing the mindset around spec work as a marketing strategy rather than working for free. The conversation also touches on the challenges of scope creep and the need to communicate and negotiate additional costs for extra services. The speakers share their experiences with event shooting and editing, highlighting the difficulties and frustrations involved. In this conversation, Jeffrey Riley of Noble Bison Productions discusses various aspects of the video production industry, including pricing, budgeting, and the sales process. He emphasizes the importance of transparency and open communication with clients, as well as the need to adapt to changing budgets and project requirements. The conversation also touches on the challenges of competition and the importance of building rapport with clients. Overall, the conversation provides valuable insights into the business side of video production.SPONSORS: Canada Film Equipment: www.CanadaFilmEquipment.com Audio Process: www.Audioprocess.ca 🎵 Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/2vHd8BdbkMQITFZmDJ0bo9 🍏 Apple: https://podcasts.apple.com/ca/podcast/creatives-grab-coffee/id1530864140 🎞️ Produced by LAPSE PRODUCTIONS – https://www.lapseproductions.com To learn more about the show, visit: https://www.creativesgrabcoffee.com/ #videographer #videoproduction #podcast

Welcome to Creative Scrap Coffee, the podcast on the business of video production. Creative Scrap Coffee is hosted by Dario Nuri and Kirill Lazerov from Labs Productions. Our goal is to share knowledge and experiences from video production professionals around the world. Whether you're a freelancer looking to start your own business or a seasoned business owner aiming to scale your company, this is the show for you. Join us as we develop a community of like-minded creatives looking to learn and help each other grow. Welcome to the business of video production. Welcome to Creatives Grab Coffee. Before we get started with the show, let's go over today's sponsors. Do you have a shoot in Toronto?

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Make sure you follow and subscribe to creativesgrapcoffee.com. Thank you. Hey, what's up everybody? I'm Matt. Welcome to Audio Process. We are a boutique audio company doing location sound, sound design, post sound, ADR, Foley. We service equipment. We do all your audio needs here in Toronto. We got you covered.

Come on down. audioprocess.ca. Don't forget to like, follow, subscribe, and all of the other internet things to creativesgrabcoffee.com. They'll be waiting for you, I'll be waiting for you, and we're all going to have a real good time. And now, let's begin the show. So now it's recording. Oh, awesome.

Hey guys. Keep telling us about how, you know, Riverside doesn't have all the features you want it to have and you can't hear your voice. No, so far Riverside hasn't been the problem. It's been the two people in the squares in front of me with the microphone placement and... Hey, we just want you to look your best, you know, that's all. Yo, do you guys know what I was listening to this morning? I was watching the latest ColdFusion video on the new Chet GPT-4 Omni-Vis- What's it called? It's a GPT-4-0 and they have like this new voice.

And it sounded identical to a human being. Yeah, I was listening to that too. The first thing I realized, because we're going through, we're in the process of hiring some voiceovers right now for one of our upcoming video shoots and the first thing I thought of is, okay, scratchthevoices.com editions. I think we're probably the new voiceover artist. It sounds identical to a person we actually used AI To

Like work out our script copy in an ad So like we were able to figure out what we wanted For the you know the previous cuts with the AI's Voiceover and then we went and got the voice voiceover artist after we kind of knew what we wanted. Who did it? Did you guys use 11 Labs? Honestly, I don't know. The client sent it to me. The client did it. Oh, they did it?

Oh, yeah. Yeah, he was like, here you go. I was like, huh? And it was awesome. Yeah, we've highlighted how like up until this point, a lot of the AI voiceover software has only been good for mostly pre-production aspects, just to kind of test out certain elements to see how it would work in the video. It's actually really good for helping you figure out also what music you wanna pick sometimes when you're going into the pre-production for a project.

And that actually helped us out with a recent shoot we did. So we tested out some of the voices, we heard how the script sounded against like certain songs and we're like, okay, this will be the song that we use. Maybe this is the kind of voice style that we're looking for. But we obviously it's just up until this point, it hasn't been dynamic enough. These AI voices, they've always been like a hint of roboticism. Sounds flat. They sound very flat.

Yeah. But the funny thing is sometimes when you listen to voiceover real people giving their auditions They have the same flat voiceover sound so I'm wondering if the AI is learning from those guys sound more and more flat It's like come on guys. Just give a little bit of human It's probably learning it from like YouTube videos and like movies now That's probably what they're feeding it. I wouldn't know. Uh, yeah, maybe commercials. I mean Podcasts, you know, yeah podcast podcast would be a good one. I would just think ads like if I were Our programming that AI I would I would send it over to ads I guess

you know radio ads TV ads like any kind of ad that would have that kind of voiceover element. Yeah but that new GPT voice is wild the video is watching like it's like okay there's gonna be a ton of new scans but at the same time I was thinking for voiceovers is gonna be great because it sounds like it's ready. The only thing I would say is that if well I think voiceovers artists are gone by the time they introduce like customized voices so if you could tell it like because right now you could tell it like okay answer me talk to me like add a tone of sarcasm to your voice and everything, it does it really well, so imagine once you can tell it,

like, you know, add a little bit of deepness to your voice or something like that, or talk a little faster, like if you could customize the voice profile, that's gonna be crazy. Yeah, for real, and with the way clients tend to be where they want to make a million changes and they never know what they want and that's gonna make it so much easier. It's almost like is that a bad thing for us because it's nice to say like we only have three

opportunities to provide feedback for this so it kind of like keeps everyone on the hook, you know? It keeps you from over tweaking and just like editing until oblivion, you know? They just charge for the extra changes, right? That's the easiest way. If it's, I mean, are you charging for AI? No, we haven't integrated it yet. We haven't implemented it yet.

We've just done it for pre-production, but I guess if we start, I mean, if you think about it, these services will probably have like a token system. So, I mean, it's not gonna be all free. It'll be based on usage, right? So we could still just pass that on to the client. I think that's how it'll probably go, no?

Also our time, also billing for our time to actually go through. Cause when you think about it, every time you go through any type of AI software, it's like doing a live directing session with a voiceover talent, right? You get on a call, you go for like a half hour,

it's like, give me that reading, great. Now do it a little bit like this, then a little bit like that. But you're just going to be doing that with an AI voice essentially. So you still have to bill for that time that goes into it. So that's a way to still ground the clients into it. And also if they wanna keep changing it, it might change the pacing of the video

and things like that. Oh, and that's gonna change the amount of revisions in the editing process as well. It's not so much just the voiceover, it's also in the editing as well. Gosh, yeah. That makes sense. I've never done it, so I don't know. But yeah, that makes a lot of sense. It's around the corner. Like after that release this week, I think it's coming. It's coming a lot faster than we thought it'd be. Yeah. I know we kind of already jumped into the episode, but just

for our listeners, Jeffrey, give us a little like a 411 on who you are in your company. Okay, yeah, so I'm Jeff Reilly. I'm co-owner of Noble Bison Productions. So what that means is generally I'm directing kind of like the creative director of Noble Bison. Tim, my business partner, he and I kind of split the producing requirements, you know, per the job and, you know, he does some things, I do some things and together we kind of get it done.

But mostly where I'm found is directing. So yeah, we've been going at it for about five years now and it's been it's been great and we're in Denver Colorado and yeah it's been it's been an awesome place to start a business and and we've had some really great opportunities with awesome clients and some cool projects. What kind of typical clientele do you have in Denver, Colorado? Or what is the industry like there for you guys? Because you're mentioning how it's been a great ride just

within short five years. So what are your thoughts? Oh, man. We're pretty mixed out here. It's kind of everything. And yeah, I mean, I know that's kind of like a I don't know like a cheesy typical thing to say but it's true I mean you never really sure what's gonna come in your you know inbox for you know projects and and whatnot I

wish there were more more ads but I feel like even the amount that we do get, I feel fortunate and lucky that we're even getting that much work. Being so close to LA and whatnot. But yeah, it's just kind of all over the board, you know, and from big to small. So like, what are like some of like your favorite types of projects that you've gotten to work work on over the last few years? That might be more specific to the Denver, Colorado region? Yeah. We... Okay, so I guess I'll just go from most recent to way back.

But recently we're finishing up an ad for a college called Otero in La Jana, Colorado. And that's been really great. And so that's like an ad for their college. There's a young girl, she's talking to a high school counselor, who she's supposed supposed to be and she's trying to figure out what college to go to she's got some reservations about the money and just like the track and all that and then eventually she goes on a tour to you know at Lahana or sorry at Otero and You know, she's like she comes back and she's like, oh I I figured it out, I know where I wanna go. So that was really great for us.

We haven't done a whole lot of dialogue in our ads, somehow, someway, so that was a big opportunity for us. So it was like, yes, let's take it, we're gonna just really send this one. So it's been, I don't wanna call it a passion project, but it's been a bit of a labor of love for us. So that one really means a lot to me right now. Prior to that, we closed out last year

with another kind of similar sized ad for this company called Watermill. That was really cute. It was a daughter and mom, and they're getting their water. Watermill is like those water kiosks. I don't know if you all have Kroger up in Canada, but like in our Kroger's we have like... Actually they don't even call them Kroger here. I'm like crossing way too many boundaries here.

But they call them King Supers. If you go to King Supers there's like an ice thing. You like put your your container into the ice or your like ice bag or whatever and it like dumps ice and then you can so that's a water mill is like that but even more and it's independent, freestanding, it's cheaper. It's like a resource for lower class society, you know, water, it's a lot cheaper, it's really clean so they're an awesome company and that was a really fun ad. Um, and then we did, what was it last year? Maybe a year and a half ago. Now we did an ad for Trimble.

They're like a pretty techie company that they, they work in a bunch of different industries, but we were specifically targeting the construction industry and and we did an ad for them and it had some VFX which was really cool for us to kind of get get our feet dipped into. You know we had this guy like popping up on screen he had this like kind of digital thet going and we got to bring out some really big toys for that one which which was super exciting. It's always fun when you've got like a thousand people on set, not really a thousand, but a lot of people on set and all the fancy toys and all the big things going on.

So definitely made me feel like, I'm doing it mom. You know, like, so that was cool. Yeah, yeah. A lot know, like. Mom, I made it. So that was cool. Yeah, yeah. A lot of projects like those, they can always be very exciting when you get to do something a little bit different that you don't typically do.

I mean, like a lot of us do corporate videos, you know, from the day to day or the in-between, you know, to kind of obviously pay the bills and keep the business going. But then once in a while, when those projects that are completely out of the norm come through, that's when you wanna really get kind of like

creative with certain aspects of it. And what you mentioned was interesting because you were like, some of them were kind of like branded stories, right? Like focusing on certain subjects and people. Were those projects something that the client came to you with or was this something that you Wanted kind of pitched to them and explored wanted to explore in terms of like telling us a story like that they come to us

They kind of know what they want And it kind of depends The our highest our highs our highest budgeted ads have been like, they know the story, they have the storyboards, here it is, your production company, make it happen. Now when we shot Trimble, I had agency and freedom to be the director on set, but I knew the boards that we needed to accomplish and I was given freedom to kind of work with the actors. We did a lot of improv, we did a lot of alt lines per the agency's request, but you know, like I know my direction, but I get to drive the car,

if that makes sense. And that's been the bulk of our experience. We, as a company, have not done a whole lot of, like really any pitching to someone, you know, they lapse guys, I've got a video for you, like we don't do that. So we've been fortunate enough to to have everything kind of, you know, offered to us and then and then we do our thing and make it as awesome as we can. Now, that being said, the smaller ads, which would be like the Watermill that I talked about and the Otero, I had a little bit more

creative fingerprint on that. So I was like really like the Watermill ad, which unfortunately it still isn't either of these ads are on our website. But that one has some transitions that I was like really, really gung ho about. And it was like we did these match cuts and you know, we, we measured the moves, we did Dolly and it was like this whole technical thing. And so the client was like all for it, let me do that. You know, along with other small little things. But that was more of a collaborative effort there.

And then with Otero, that was also very collaborative. Like that client was at like, I mean, it was almost like, hey, you're allowed to tell me no. Like, just because I said this idea doesn't mean it's awesome. Like if it sucks, tell me like they were too easy So that that was great. I mean it was it's been wonderful. They've been they've been awesome to work with and But yeah, I got to really I got to really make that come come to life like they had no storyboards

You know, I plan I I storyboarded the whole thing and you how I wanted the shots to go like we transition from a two shot Oh, sorry, just bunk the mic there. We did a two shot of them at the table where she's like talking to her counselor about schools and then that transitions to another two shot of her and a friend walking through the hallway and You know, I had this whole idea of how that audio was going to go fade in and out from each other. It was, I was really specific that when we got to the hallway, that it was a two shot, we weren't going to do any close ups, we weren't going to cross shoot nothing like that was it. It was a two shot, and I'm not cutting away from it. And then it reveals that they're on a tour, a guided tour.

And so that was another thing like, you know, working with the client, like, all right, well, we got to reveal this tour guide. And so together we were happy with, oh, we're going to hear that audio off screen and then we'll cut to the tour guide and then we'll show that they're like actually on this tour. And so, you know, that was a way to kind of like for me to flex my filmmaking skills and Create a voice of like how am I gonna get in between all these story beats that were dictated by the client? But you know it was up to me as like the skill technician or whatever to to make it creative and really cool and flow and work I

Remember when we were first having our intro call, we had like a nice little discussion about agency work versus just going out and getting your own clients. So I just want to bring that up here. Like your viewpoint was that you want to target more agencies. Do you want to just talk about your reasoning for that? Yeah, I love working with agencies. Now I'll say that not all agencies are created equally.

There are many out there that tend to fumble the ball and they think they're not and you just kind of have to bite your lip or bite your tongue or whatever. Not bite your lip, that'd be a different scenario. Yeah, you see, you know, so that can be stressful. But my point of view is, like, if Nike is doing a commercial, they're not just gonna hit up Noble Bison Productions. They're not just gonna call Laps, you know, they're not gonna be like, hey guys, we've got half a million dollars for our next big campaign, wanna do it?

They're gonna go through a marketing agency, and then it's gonna be that marketing agency's job to find the right production company to partner with them to bring all of that vision to life. So to me, agency work typically means bigger, better projects that have a higher budget and a higher scope and a higher ability, possibility, and sometimes even more stylistic. I find that a lot of smaller companies are really shy about doing anything that's outside of the box.

Like they really want it to look like everything else. You know, like, well, we know that this company down the road, they did this really bright, cheesy thing and it worked for them and that's just what we want to do. And like I said earlier, we've been really fortunate that I have not had to battle that too much. Of course, it does happen, where they really want to dictate even the image and all these things and you don't even really feel like you're just kind of like a passenger, like, okay, sure, I'll make your thing and that's fine. But that's part of being in a business, part of making

money, so that's to be expected. But the point is with the agency work. I feel like there's generally more opportunity to have some style and Actually, like really get your hands dirty with some like really cool work Yeah, it's it it's just really true that sometimes like some smaller companies They they do tend to play it a little bit more safe. But the reasoning for that usually is because the money that they're putting in is taking a lot more out of them than say, for example, a lot of these bigger agency companies like Nike, obviously them throwing half a million for an ad is like a drop in the bucket for them. Whereas if a smaller company was even to put like 10,000

or 15,000, that could be potentially their entire marketing budget for the entire year even sometimes. And they know they need the video. So they're trying to, cause they also have to prove it to their bosses of why we need to do the video. Like we need to show examples of it working.

And so it's a you're right It's a completely different ballgame completely different My other you're working on them another additional reason to is because companies like Nike for example. They've already done All the safe videos. Yeah, they've already done. They've done. They've done everything already So they had they do have the opportunity to Experiment and try different things and I mean they're also in a position where they do need to push the boundaries to get more attention Right. Yeah, all that makes sense. Totally. I just want to be I want to be lined up for the videos that are that are pushing batteries Yeah, you know like that's cool. I'm not judging anyone for making you know, sure around the mill

Videos so and of course we make we make that kind of stuff we make brightly lit you know just like standard and I'm proud of it I'm happy with it I like it but as a filmmaker I'm like I want to go do something grittier I want to do something that's like you want to flex like your creative muscles and like yeah everyone wants to yeah so so to bring it all back. Yeah, that's that's why I kind of like the agencies. And, you know, we we try to reach out like quarterly to different

agencies, you know, any agency that we haven't previously talked to, whether they're here in Denver or we we try to cast our net even further. Try to look for some surrounding states, you know, maybe L.A. and New York, you know, maybe LA, maybe New York, you know, who knows? Actually, our first commercial that we did was through an agency out in New York. So they came out here and shot. And so that was our first commercial as Noble Bison. Nice. I was actually going to ask you, like, because you're focusing on just agencies mostly to do work, it's a very different kind of relationship building

and outreach model compared to like, say you're trying to find direct to clients, who might find you through Google, right? Usually you go through SEO a lot of the time in that case. So what would you guys- I'll give you that too. Oh, and okay. That's great.

Obviously to put your foot in like a few different camps is great. I was actually curious though, how do you go more about relationship building with agencies specifically? Is there certain people you're constantly targeting or certain people that you're trying to build more long-term relationships with?

What's your approach with that? Man, in terms of maintaining the relationship, sure, that's great. It's just follow-up emails. Hey guys, how's it going? How did that video do for you? How was the reception? That's all easy stuff.

Just like, hey, how's it going? If you guys have anything coming up, we'd love a chance to bid on it and work together. We really enjoyed working with you. Yeah, that's the easy part. And some of the agency people are awesome. Like there's one dude, like I could call him up pretty much anytime I want, and we could probably just chat and probably not even talk about work.

So great relationship with him. And that's awesome when you can find that. But it doesn't necessarily equate to us getting the job because we've lost work to other companies from him. So, you know, but I do my best to keep the relationship strong and just be like a resource and a good pal and a good person that, you know, hopefully they'll wanna work with again.

In terms of acquiring those relationships, now that's, that's kind of the kicker here and that's hard. Um, and it's, I've, I don't know. I mean, it's probably everywhere, but at least my experience in Denver has proven that the agencies out here tend to use the same production companies for every commercial. So it's like this club, you know, and we haven't been invited yet. So it's like figuring out how do we get invited, but then also do I want to be invited?

Maybe it's better to spend my resources and our time reaching out to other agencies that haven't really done anything in Denver yet and we could be their choice provider. So that's been my new thing that I've been wrestling with. Maybe I shouldn't be trying to compete with the other production companies, but blazing my own trail, finding my own connections and agencies, but the process is kind of the same. It's looking them up, getting on Google. Marketing agencies, Denver. Marketing agencies, where you guys, Quebec?

No. So. Ontario. Ontario, yeah. So watch out. Yeah, we're coming for your marketing agencies. You should have just told me Quebec, then you wouldn't have to worry about me. Yeah, maybe.

Yeah. But no, yeah, yeah. So you look them up and you just... We've done everything from just doing the contact us now forms to literally like secret agent work of typing in their names with the email and waiting for Google to show you their picture. Tell you if it's good. Yeah, so we've tried everything under the sun to try to get through these people.

And it's just like, hey guys, we're Noble Bice Productions, here's some work that we've done. We would love an opportunity to bid on your next project or your next commercial. Right. And most of the time they don't respond. But all you can do is just keep trying because you're not going to get it if you don't try. So out of all the times you've applied cold sales.

Yeah, I was going to say like with cold sales, it really is a numbers game. So have you found like if you've continually doing it, you must have had some decent success though through that, right? Depends, Kirill. It's for like every every hundred leads you get one, right? Well, that's what I'm asking. Like some people it works, some people it doesn't. Some people a little bit more so than others.

It really depends, but I'm just curious. That's why I prefer direct to client because I feel like it's easier with the agencies. Because you're still going to be bidding on projects at the end of the day, right? Even if they have their roster of three companies they go through, you're still competing for the same thing. Versus like if you have direct a client. Why not both? As long as they're happy with you,

they're gonna keep using you. Yeah, but why not both? It's a long term thing. Why not both? Both I think is great as well. I think if you can dedicate enough time to doing both. I mean, if you're running a business basically like, is this worth my time?

Like if I close this, will it make sense financially, right? So if that calculation works, then yeah. I mean, you got to test out every avenue anyways, right? When you're running a business, like SEO ads, cold outreach, you got to do everything. Yeah, man. I would say it does. Sorry, I just got... You gotta do everything. Yeah, man. I would say it does. Sorry, I just got.

And it's interesting you mention about how like, there's the cool club, you know, of like the few agencies that work with the same group of people all the time. And, you know, it kind of makes sense because, you know, once you've worked with certain people and you understand each other's flow, it's a lot easier to go through processes with new projects,

new clients, new leads, and you all understand how you all work together, right? It's like looking at other production companies like when potentially we were freelancing back in the day. There are certain companies that only work with their guys. They might occasionally come to you if everyone's busy and then that's how you kind of get your foot in the door. Like I find usually breaking into new networks usually comes from those situations when the regular people are all busy, but the work is still coming in and they need to get that filled somewhere. Getting that first project done with someone new is always, is always a good

thing because then that opens up the pool a little bit. It's like how we are trying to test out new editors to jump on board, to work with us at LAPS. I'm always telling Dario, it's like, hey, we got this one guy here. I want to test them out on a project. Let's see what new leads come through that we can test them out. Just get that project under the belt, see how they work, and then we can figure out how that relationship will be going forward. And then it's like, great.

Now we have another means of going through. But yeah, it's tough to break through So it's it's it's fair enough for you to kind of look at other Agencies like that are within the area or around the area of instead of like the main guys, right? Yeah, totally and and you're absolutely right and and I hope that that's like the experience that we have with our agencies and I would say Hid or miss, you know. But yeah, definitely not knocking that. And I guess that is kind of how recently I'm like, well, maybe I need to stop expecting

them to decide that they don't want to use LAPS, right? And they want to use noble bison, right? So instead of that instead of waiting for something that's likely not gonna happen because all the production companies around here are great So it's like I'm not expecting any of them to drop the ball There's actually a lot of great companies in Denver look when I was making my list for outreach I was like, oh my god There's like 15 companies on this list, which is pretty high compared to a lot of the other cities I was going through. Yeah, yeah. Denver's killing it in the production company world. I don't know. Yeah, we've got some really great companies out here and they're run by some really awesome people and everyone's like, you know, doing a good job and making really cool content so it's it is a little bit competitive like

that but again like I said it's like so that leaves me like alright well we're somewhat newer of a company in Denver and so maybe it's not so much just waiting on those companies that dropped the ball but looking for our for our own path our own our own community you know do. I feel like you'll get those opportunities, like, yeah, but I feel like the problem is you need the portfolio to be able to get those opportunities, right? But now the problem becomes how do I get that portfolio, right? Yeah. Because you need the agencies to take a chance on you to be able to get it. Totally. That's the tricky part. Yeah, well, well I can tell you I can tell you what I think about that and this is this

is a hot take if you had like like sound board that would be the time to like you've got like the frying pan or something like hot take you guys you guys gotta get on the soundboard game There is sound effects here. Hold on. Hold on. Hold on. I think the pre-made riverside ones though. Oh, yeah Hit me with it. Did you guys hear that or no? No, no, no, I didn't hear. Oh really? That was a drum roll Oh, I can do live. Hold on. Hold on. There's live There you go All right, take number one. Hot take.

So, my hot take is if you know that there's a certain type of work that you want to get, whether that's commercials or whether that's like, maybe it's sports, maybe you love like mountain biking, like that's a big industry out here for Colorado, mountain biking, you know. Obviously, skiing, snowboarding, you know, that would be another example, right? And what you said is true. If you don't have that work on your website and an agency or a direct client is looking at your website, they're not going to trust you.

Well, I don't see any mountain bike videos. So why would I hire you? This other company, Laps, well, they've got three different mountain bike videos. So yeah, I'm going to use them. They know what they're doing, right? So the question is, well, how do I get that work without having it to show? And my answer is you got to eat it. You just got to do it because if that's ultimately what you're trying to do, you got to have

that work and it's going to suck. So you either pay for it out of your pocket to do it as like a spec ad and now you can show that you're able to do it or you get a budget from, you know, you get lucky with an agency or a direct client who's like, I want to do this thing and you see it and you're like, oh, I know what this can be and I know that this is like really like going to be really beneficial for us and like we really need this. Just throw all of that budget right at the video. Maybe you can make like a grand or two or something, right? Like depending on how much money there is, but like don't worry about making profit.

Just make a good product because then that product now becomes your asset as well. It's effectively becoming your commercial too. And then that helps you get the next one, two, three, four projects. And then you can start charging them what you want or taking more, a higher, sorry, cut out of the budget. But you gotta get that work. a higher, sorry, cut out of the budget. But you gotta get that work.

You gotta get that work on your reel and on your website so that they know that you're capable of doing it. I completely agree. And the funny thing is that I know why you say that that it's a big hot take is because a lot of people in our industry, when they hear the classic saying, just do a spec ad, get portfolio pieces and stuff like that, there's kind of like a negative connotation with that where it's like people are saying that you should be doing work for free.

And I think the best way to go about it is actually to reframe your thinking. Instead of putting it in from the aspect of like, oh, you know, just do some free work to get some like portfolio pieces. Think of it as you are putting in a marketing budget for yourself. It's part of your marketing strategy. It's like, all right, we're looking for these types of projects to get through, but we need to get, we need to create content to kind of use to pitch, right? Sometimes it could be, you know, like

informational videos that you might do for your business. It could be, you know, other corporate style videos that you want to do, but this is another avenue that you can go for. So I think it's just a matter of reframing your thinking in that aspect where it's not meant to be like, look, we want to work with you because we're, we need portfolio pieces. It's like, hey, this is one aspect we're trying to promote ourselves a little bit more we need work like this would you be interested in partnering with us you know I think it was saying though like lower your prices but now not actually oh you guys oh so you guys like just to clarify you guys are saying like do it on the arm basically yeah no

that's what he's saying yeah we have a budget of X I'm saying if they hit you up with, we have a budget of X, I'm saying take budget of X and put it into the project. Oh, so there's still money in there. Yeah, okay. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Okay. Now, and I kind of said two different things. So there was one where I mentioned you could do a spec job.

And so that's the option where, well, no one's emailing me, even giving me the opportunity to take budget of X and put all of X into the budget. Okay. Well, then that's where you go, all right, well then maybe we'll do a spec ad. So Noble Bison has been fortunate that we have not needed to do a spec ad, but we have taken commercials where we've charged X budget. We knew what their budget was for the ad and we just put it all, or at least 95% of it, right,

into the ad to make sure that we had all the grips we needed, all the right cameras, the right DP, all that stuff, because we know that we need to look legit. And you guys were just saying about how steep the competition is out here. So like, if we're gonna play ball, we gotta really like step it up. And when we're trying to grow our portfolio,

grow our image, grow all that stuff, like for me, that was like necessary. Yeah, like, I like, yeah, that, I mean, that's, that's, I think that's a normal thing to do, right? Yeah. I think doing work for that client for free, I would completely disagree with that. No, I'm not saying do it for free I'm saying take your budget. Yeah, okay, so I'm technically working for free because I I didn't get paid

Yeah, but my my old gene E team got paid my DP got paid, you know, we got Alexa We got cook anamorphics or whatever right like You know, that's what he makes sense like I think if if the client has no budget then at that point I would rather go the spec ad route and Create something myself, and then I would go back to them and say you can get the same thing this is how much it'll cost because you already have the Yeah, I already have the video at that point. You already have the product to sell right? Yeah, like spec ads you should do it for yourself not so much for other companies the yeah, I already have the video at that point. I already have the product to sell, right?

Yeah, like spec ads, you should do it for yourself, not so much for other companies, if you're gonna go that route, because then you have full creative control. That's the whole point of doing spec work is that you're letting your creativity go. You should never do pure spec work with clients, unless like you're literally just starting out

and you just like need to get like one video for- There better be like a benefit, like you guys sign a deal where get like a little one video for there better be like a benefit Like you guys sign some kind of like yeah, like there's the better be a benefit It's like we'll do this one But we like if it's well received you get like we're putting it in the contract right now Like we get X amount of it But I don't know like you might as well just do the spec ad on your own have total freedom Creative control and then pitch that to other companies. That's what I would do.

Like we did, as an example, we did a project about, was it like six years ago, where it was like for this wind tunnel that we were working with, and they wanted to create a promotional video for this wingsuit skydiver, right? Something that we were gonna shoot over the course of three days. And we thought that this could be a great opportunity

to kind of create more of a short documentary, which we wanted to get in our portfolio as well. And they gave us the budget that we had to work with. And then we said, okay, for this, we'll still do it. We'll put our time and effort into it. Like basically all the post-production was on the arm. We basically did at that point. Like we got some stuff covered, but to your point,

you do that, you get a new portfolio piece, you sink your teeth into something new, you learn, and then you have now a new piece that you can promote to other companies. So there definitely is a good way, a good element to that where even sometimes just pitching a different idea that might be a bit more complex, but if it's gonna get you a new portfolio piece

and the client wants to play ball, why not? Right? It's a good avenue to do that. One thing you also mentioned is that the competition is obviously crazy in Denver. Have you built some kind of collaborative relationships with any other companies where, you know, like if there's spillover work on either end, you guys can help each other out or something like that or, or anything like that. Or is, does everyone kind of see each other's pure competition there?

I'm not sure. I'm not sure how everyone else feels about it. I will say that Noble Bison doesn't have spillover work yet. So we have nothing to offer in that. I would be happy to hit up, you know, anyone in Denver and make that kind of deal. But I mean, we take and service every job that comes through our inbox right now. So if we had more work, then that could be a different thing. But yeah, we're just, we're not quite there yet. We're close, but we're not quite there yet So if I can offer it then then that's you know, I'm certainly open to it Mm-hmm. Okay Yeah, go ahead. No, I go ahead. I'm pretty much all done on that one. Okay, I guess it wasn't a good question You're about to ask

It's all good I'm messing Let's talk about it. Let's talk a good question you're about to ask. It's all good. I'm messing. Let's talk a bit about you and your partner. How do you guys split responsibilities? Tim handles a lot of the logistics, like call sheets, he handles the first and maybe second interactions with potential clients. So it's kind of like once we kind of know

that this job's going through, then that's when I kind of step in and kind of get the remaining logistics and then we submit our official proposal. So he's like the sales guy? Yeah, more or less. He does sales, but he does more than that too. So he's more than just a sales guy. Because he's on set too.

Right. You know, he helps out on set. He helps with like the location scouting. He's kind of like a project manager on set as well. So he's usually there with the clients and making sure that they're happy while I'm there with the crew, making sure that the crew is happy and has everything they need. So yeah, I mean, between the two of us, we get it done. What do you guys do for like the post end? You guys do that in house, use freelancers? It's all in house and you're looking at the house right now, Bubba.

Oh my god. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, we've moved to strictly using, well, for the most part, strictly using freelancers. Nice. Yeah. I saved up a lot of time. I hope to get there soon. Again, it's kind

of like similar to what I was saying about, you know, we're just, we don't have the influx of work quite yet for that to make sense. I can, I can handle it all. And also, like I said, like, like between Tim and I's split of responsibilities, like he takes a lot of the stuff that, you know, like I have him there in my pocket to do that so that I can also take care of post. And then when the jobs start to get further along the line, then I can jump in and take on that job and then finish the one before it. And it's just this like continuous cycle of, you know, close one out, bring one in. Have you actually, have you had the chance or the opportunity to actually bring on an

editor just to kind of test the waters a little bit? Sorry. You sound like a dying man. Sorry, one second. I liked it. That's the new voiceover, Objrum. Yeah, it's the new voiceover that I'm gonna pitch for the next video But um, like have you had the opportunity to test it out with any new?

Any editors before or have you just strictly stuck to the two of you? We've used We've used an editor a few times and it's been nice for sure. Yeah. It's gonna free up so much of your time. Totally. I agree. I'd love to.

But man, like we've got bills to pay, bro. I don't know what to tell you, man. You want it more than I do. Tim wants it more than I do. I'm like, guys, like I'm good. Like, I've been editing for a long time like I'm I'm efficient and also like and I know Daria you and I kind of talked about this but like there's there's an element of like my creative fingerprint like is also in the edit and

like obviously, you know a good editor can match that or learn that pretty quickly. That's another thing that gives me a little bit of what I'm trying to say is, but it makes me feel a little weary about the whole process. But again, it's really the real answer is we just need more work. So when we have a little bit more work, then we can afford that. And that's going to be awesome. And I can't wait I'm gonna call you Dario and I'm gonna be like dude using an editor

I'm gonna send you a bottle of bourbon or something. What something in America that you don't have in Canada Good economy a good economy. Do we have Oreos? I love that question. I love that question Maybe we should send you or was it is it the US all us Kinder eggs Kinder eggs. No, no, no, no No, no, Carol that that whiskey the Tennessee whiskey caramel whiskey. Yeah, that thing was I went to Nashville buddy to two years ago and I brought back this peanut butter whiskey from Tennessee Brewworks or something I think it was called. And like it was like something completely new. But I remember

when we were there, my fiance and I, we were trying all these different ones, but the craziest one I tried was a watermelon one. It was like a watermelon whiskey and it was like drinking a Jolly Rancher. It was really good, but very dangerous. That sounds terrible. I hate everything about that. But I'm happy you like it. Trust me, it's good to have like a sip maybe just to try it. I wouldn't buy a whole bottle of that though.

But the peanut butter one, that one. The peanut butter one was amazing. I tried to find, I started to notice some peanut butter whiskies that they had here in Canada, but I'm like, this is not the same. There was one called nut bar and I'm like, no, this is just the name alone. Just the name alone does not sound appetizing at all. On the editor front, I think maybe you've been a little like slow to do that because I guess you really like it because everyone else that we know that we've talked about the first thing they do is like bring on freelance editors to at least take that load off the rent because I guess we don't like the edit as much as you like the

Edit you must love like everyone Yeah, man, You know what? I love it. It's awesome. It's a love hate thing for him. But I mean, also he works on, he's also working on more project. Most of his projects are a little bit more creative in that sense where sometimes a lot of like we have a lot of corporate work that comes through RN and it's a lot of very straightforward

kind of simple videos sometimes. Yeah. Quarterly reports, AGMs, or simple corporate promotional videos, which you can be creative sometimes with that, but the problem is it does take a lot of time. And funny enough, it's actually good to sometimes delegate it to the editors because then they're handling maybe one or two projects,

and then if another project comes through, then you can kind of handle that like I'm like the last defense for editing for the business right that way if like something last-minute comes or something a little bit more urgent that needs help like I can I can jump on board for that meanwhile we have certain editors working on projects that you know will take time and then we know that it's still happening while we're working on these other ones. Or if it's very basic, like sometimes it's so basic, I'm like, let's just do it in-house,

like it's not worth it. Yeah, well, if it's something faster. Yeah, well, I guess I'm like, okay, so two things. Well, one is like, it depends on the scope of the job. Like if it's something basic like that, and you, let's say you have, just to make it easy, you have a $10,000 budget for that. And you know, okay, the company can recoup five of that, and then we can throw a three on an editor,

and whatever, you've got the remaining two for any unforeseen expenses. So that's easy. But if you're doing something where you have crew and you've got 10,000, well now I need like four grand for crew and equipment and all that, you know, like, so those margins get real thin. And with there being so much competition out here, it's really easy to be underbid. So I don't want to sacrifice the quality of our image just so that I can like hire an editor. And I'm not that's not pointed at you guys. That's just me like reflecting

on my own experience. And so but I think the kicker here is it just depends on what the project is. Because I'm totally with you. If it's something super simple like that, and it's like a healthy budget, and we can make money and we can hire an editor, like I'm totally down for that. But then there's also the like other side of that where it's like, well, but we could also make more money and, you know, like just really keep our accounts healthy and, you know, save for a rainy day or whatever. So it's just this like really tough dance that we do. If we had more consistent work coming through the door,

then it wouldn't be so hard to make that sacrifice. But right now we're just not like, we're so close, but we're not quite there. But what I will say that you'll be happy to hear is we've done a few events this year and God, there's nothing I hate more than an event like shooting an event, editing an event. It's the- Really?

Oh my God, I hate it so much. I love it. It's so easy. Okay. You're just kidding. Yeah, Jeffrey, go on. Tell us more. So what is it about events specifically that you're doing? You have to go on.

Tell us more. So what is it about events specifically that you don't like? Everything? What do you like? I know what he doesn't like. What do you like about any event? I know what you don't like about it. It's not creative.

You like being treated like crap by CEO douchebags? You like that? I've never had that issue. We haven't had that issue. Maybe I'm just like a disagreeable person and people don't like me I don't know but yeah we just did we just did one and I felt like I was like they kicked us in the ass man it was it was brutal it was rough really and like the organization just isn't there they want everything it's also the land of scope creep. Like, hey, we signed this contract for these things.

You know, oh, but like, can you guys come get this shot? Or can you have your photographer do a million headshots of our entire team? You know, like it's just, it's scope creep everywhere you look. And it puts you in a really terrible position because if I say something, now I'm a dick, now maybe they don't want to work with us or I damaged the relationship. There's just a lot of

potential repercussions if you really stand your ground with that. So you have to really be careful about when you say something. It's just it's just brutal man And then you're shooting for like what 12 hour days of like just shooting the whole time there's like not really like a storyboard or like a shot list and you're just like shooting people like drinking wine and like talking about something. He's shooting the wrong stuff. These are the events we get, baby. Someone hurt him, man. Yeah, these are the events we get, dude.

Maybe they play cornhole, you know? I can't tell you. Oh, dude. Cornhole is you have this little sandbag and you toss it, usually underhand, across the way to a little platform that's like slanted. Oh yeah, I played that. Yeah. Yeah, you know that. So yeah, like that's the event shooting that we get at least and it sucks. So the whole point

was not to get in a battle about whether events suck or don't suck, which they do, was to just tell you that in terms of the network that we take now I've like we're at the point now where I'm like alright Tim I'm not shooting these and I'm not editing these like we we're gonna charge more and we're just gonna hire out and that's gonna be the end of it so that's man for me event like I'm total opposite cuz for me they're so easy to film and like they're done so much faster than regular videos, so we get our money so much sooner.

Like I find, I will agree with you with the scope creep because we do experience that and we do have a little bit of leeway for that, but then I kind of don't mind it because once it gets past the leeway point, then I just apply high pressure pressure sales on that it's like okay so it'll cost as much extra can can you send the kind like the updated contract right now so then we can improve it yeah that's how I do it

and like I've never gotten a lot of pushback on that because usually when they come up with more stuff a little bit of it is like can you help us out and then I make it seem like oh you, you know, just for you, whatever. But once it gets past that point, that's when you can go like, okay, can you quickly approve the budget? That's like, I think if maybe you change your, your wording with that, it might help out a bit. It, they understand costs are also associated with things and also don't be

afraid to say like,'s like oh, yeah We could definitely help you with that like to do this extra video or the service will cost this much more because we have to Bring you don't even really have to explain it But like like when you're doing this stuff like you can do anything There's just a price tag attached to it. So if they're cool with the price tag then getting light it I always put the the onus on them to go forward with it. Yeah. It's like I can do it it's gonna cost as much extra do you want to do it? Yeah and let the record show we actually have done that. I'm just I guess my point is like- Oh and you got pushback on that? No we didn't get pushback but I guess my my point I'm trying to make is like it just puts you the it puts us like in a weird position because we don't like to like

we don't want to rock the boat we don't want to ruffle the feathers we don't want to give them any reason to like like I don't know because it's like does it reflect port like like just all the different ways that can be taken and that's that's like where we get a little nervous because we don't we don't want to rock the boat in any unnecessary way well Well, I mean, look, if you go buy a car and you want to start as you're selling a car, for example, right. And they start to like they want add ons. They got pay extra for it, right?

Like, it's not like a weird thing. Like that that for you should be like fantastic. I get a bigger cut now. Yeah, but they already signed a contract like they already did. Like the job has already gone through. Right. Like, Yeah, but not for everything that they wanted. Right. True. But why couldn't we have communicated that better prior to it? Like, is that is that on me? Like, is that on us for not like, you know what I mean? I understand what I'm saying. I guess I'm just kind of I'm like being annoying and playing the devil's advocate right now. No, no, no,

this is this is a good thing. This is a good thing to kind of discuss actually, because I mean, things change like with a lot of like companies over time, because sometimes new ideas come up, things get adjusted. And then, you know, that's why Dario is saying sometimes it's good for that, because then if they really want something and they know it's going to cost more, they're going to find the budget for it. A lot of these events, they're already spending a hundred thousand, two hundred thousand, three hundred thousand on the event itself. And if it's something that's really important

and they need, they will pay for it. Dario did mention there is sometimes little leeway. Like for example, if the video you paid for was like an event video that was like a minute or like two minutes or so, but it ends up being like two minutes 15 two minutes 30 just a little bit extra It's like that's a little bit of leeway, you know in the editor So leeway like you know like that you were supposed to stay till like six and they need you till eight It's like that's fine like stuff like that is fine. But upselling is like upselling is the best part about like projects Sounds like you're the you're the event shark that we need on our team

Sure, it's also like I'm like, no, it's it's also like an approach thing, right? like if if If they're coming to you with the scope creep, you know And then you know if you just kind of are nonchalant about it and say like yeah, that's not a problem You know, this is just how much it'll cost extra or anything like that You know and be very direct and straight with it. Yeah Usually is not gonna be an issue like I think it's like if you you try to go from the approach of like, you know, like wasn't what we talked about You know this it might have to cost like this, you know, it's kind of like upselling is like something you could do it

It's kind of like. Upselling is like something you could do at a, it's the best part. Like even when you're doing like a regular project, like you're talking about your commercials, like let's say you sign them on for 10 Gs or whatever. Like after they're signed on and you're going through the whole pre-production process, that's another like stage where you can add more cost to their budget, right?

Like, okay, you guys, in fact, you know, we then factor in like an extra, like a studio rent. You know, it's gonna be like a thousand bucks. And then, you know, in fact, you know, we then factor in like an extra like a studio rent Yeah, it's gonna be like a thousand bucks and then you know, like we have all these people here But we don't have like a makeup artist, you know, like we're already spending this much Why not just spend like five hundred bucks extra out of makeup artists in there? Like there's something like different points where you can add more things to it Like it's not I don't see it usually as being like a bad thing because you know, like oh we initially agreed on this There's like yeah, we agreed on this and then there's optionals like and now we're at the stage where we can do the optionals shopping right?

It's not meant to be predatory. It's not meant to be predatory or anything like that. It's just like because like in a lot of the time things change in pre-production new ideas come up and like maybe like what you guys are talking about in the initial stages, it's like this is what we're thinking about doing and then the client might say like, oh can we do it in this type of setting instead of that type of setting? It's like, oh well we didn't talk about it but if you want to do something like that it'll require this and because you want to shoot it like this we need to hire this type of person as well and you kind of just present it to them. Like stuff changes all the time and like the idea is not to be afraid of change, just kind of embrace it and then, and just show it's like, yeah,

like be very open with the clients and it could be different like that. It could obviously maybe be a little different also when you're working with agencies because they might have like a very specific budget that they've like set and then it's like, figure out how to work with it with the limitations. Obviously there are some situations like that where there's a hard budget, can't go

over it, figure out how to make it work with that budget. Completely understandable, but there is sometimes potential, especially this is why I guess Dario and I do like working with clients directly sometimes because you know, we kind of there, there's a lot more opportunity for that in kind of like fluctuating budgets here and there sometimes. But yeah, it really varies and depends. So, yeah, well, I have some thoughts and I'm trying to decide if it's worth

like just letting the conversation move on to the next topic or if I should get in here and get dirty and put my boxing mitts on. It's up to you. No, I'm going to. Go for it. Yeah, no. So I totally agree with you on the event stuff. So like if you're at an event and those things happen, and like I said, we have done that. We just did that.

We charged them for overtime. We charged them this and that. So like the point I was, I guess, making was I just don't like the position that it puts me in it makes me feel weird Maybe that's why I have Tim Now in terms of like You guys you guys keep saying agencies, but we do direct client work to man and in terms of direct client we've got laps productions wants us to do a fifteen thousand dollar video and Productions wants us to do a $15,000 video. And it's the way I view it.

It is my responsibility as the professional to account for all of those costs. If there's a hair and makeup person or a location charge that was not put on that estimate, like that sucks. I failed. I failed my job. Like, I'm sorry, but like I, I'm that some of that wording, maybe it was like just the example that you gave just threw me on that one, but To clarify like we do put that in the RFP as optionals

so we say like based on your budget like we like Because we give that we'd like to give them off. Yeah Yeah, yeah, here's the budget you gave me. Here's what we can provide. Yeah, yeah. We're not talking about stuff out of left field. Like it's never like, we agree with you that you have a responsibility to try to keep everything within that budget based on what is being discussed. It's like, we just let them know it's like there's so many different ways we can go about it. We could do it like this, like this, like this.

But if you want to aim to do it within this budget, this is what you can get for it. And then as we kind of dig into it, they might realize, like, oh, maybe that other approach might have been a little bit better. Let's go with that one instead. You know, that's the approach. Yeah, because our pricing is very transparent.

Like, it's on our site and everything. So they're free to check it out. And then we just let them know. It's like, yeah, based on your budget, like, this is what you can get. If you want to push a little bit more this is estimate too and then if you want to go all out here's the premium version and then again depends depending on what they choose like we bring it up again during pre-production it's like

hey you know like do you still interested in that or no like it usually depends like for us we like to show them the options and not pressure them into any Just let them choose their own volition share So it's like if you want we're ready at this stage you want to add this in it's only this much like What do you want to do gotcha? Yeah, yeah, that makes sense. Don't worry. No, no boxing here. We're on the same team here Well, I like this though I like I like trying I like trying to discuss these ideas a little bit more and just like argue.

You know what I wanted to touch on is because you have a lot of good competition, how do you navigate around that? I feel like it's different if it's like, OK, there's like, depending on what your market positioning is, you got like maybe two other competitors and you kind of know what their USPs are, like maybe one of them like low balls, but the quality is not there versus you like you're in the middle, but your quality is good. Like what do you do when like everyone's kind of like on their A game and you guys are roughly

charging like what you know you should be charging, but you know that the other person might know like it's it's like you're playing a game of poker and everyone's good yeah and you don't know what the other guy's got in his hand it's tough man and i try not to think about it honestly we just we put in the bid that we think is best for that project and hope that you know the other companies are around the same price. It's really nice when you know the budget. Oh, we've got a budget of 15 grand. We've got a budget of 50 grand. We've got a budget of 150 grand.

So that helps to know so everyone's kind of in the same world. It's not like us proposing $100,000 budget while Laps is proposing a hundred thousand dollar budget while LAPS is proposing a thirty thousand dollar budget but then sometimes when we lose out on the lowball quotes sometimes it's i mean it sucks because it sucks to always lose work but sometimes you have to remind yourself well maybe i didn't really want to work with them to begin with. I should specify that this has happened where they'll say, oh, we've got a budget of, let's say, 50 grand.

And we send them a proposal that's at 50 grand or maybe 48 grand or something. We're using their money. We're putting it to all these things. And our prices are transparent as well. You can see what we're making. You can see what all the contractors make. Oh, we want this other company that they were just a little lower than you. Right. So then it's like, that just kind of tells me like a little bit about them. And yes, it is what it is. And you know, is try not

to get too distraught by it. And you just hope that the clients will choose based on the quality of the work and the company themselves, maybe the way they felt talking to you, which to run it back to Tim, shout out to him. He's so good at that. He is way nicer than I am, way friendlier than I am. So he is really great at like getting the clients in the door and making them feel really good and that's awesome.

So that's his strength for sure. So yeah, and you just hope that that's how you win, right? Is based on those things. I was going to ask like since you're bidding a lot of the time with a lot of these same companies in terms of competition, like how extensive is your bidding process in terms of like what you propose? Like, do you propose like at least a little bit of creative with the budget in mind or just simply like, this is what we're aiming to create. This is the creative that we will provide. Or do you, that, that, that, that, or do you just go all out on a creative based on that and just kind of present that?

Like what is, what have you found has like been most successful for you? So, like I said, I mean, when it comes to agencies and like a broadcast ad in general, there's really not a whole lot of creative to be done. It's, it's already done. They have storyboards. Now, the creative will come with like your set design, maybe making your color palette, choosing your camera, putting in your camera moves.

So like those are things that I put into our bits. Oh, here's like a director's treat, like off there on the director's treat. So here's your board, here's your next board. The way I want to do this is like do this dolly push in and then it's going to like reveal here and like, I'll just I'll provide the glue, you know, they've got the bones and then I'm going to put everything together. And now it's a thing. So that's kind of how I look at it. And I just kind of put that all under director's treatment. Sometimes that's easier or harder,

depending on how much information you get. I mean, man, we've been requested to bid on stuff where it's like, I don't know hardly anything about it. And they're like, this is all we have. And just tell us what the, you know, it's like they just put so much unrealistic expectations on you at times. And that's both agencies and direct client. That's not just agency alone

So yes, that's not do you have like calls with them just the like clarify things we try to yeah It doesn't always happen, but we we always do yeah and in fact we like I was saying earlier like Tim will Be the first on the call and then he'll get a lot of the information and then I've got like a million more Other more logistical, like, okay, well, let's talk about like the tone and like, you know, like I get way more into it where it's him is like more surface level and then that's when I get with them. And that's generally, we find that even though that's a lot of phone calls, it's an opportunity for us to spend more time with them, talking to them, and it feels

like we're building rapport that way. So. Yeah, and the other good thing when you do that is you're asking them questions and things that probably they haven't thought of or other companies haven't thought of asking them either. We get that. And that's a good way sometimes to stand out.

We get that feedback a lot actually. That we go. Yeah, then you're doing it right. That we go above and beyond the other companies in town to take good care of all the details and the planning. So that's our claim to fame right now, or at least for us is like our planning and our producing and everything is really to the point. I'm a type A personality so I like I'm like not okay with like chaotic

Like that kind of stuff like I want everything to be super accounted for so We used to have like a more extensive sales process and then this year we just simplified it so like we just do that one intro call and then By the end of it if I have enough information, I'm like, Tim, if I have enough surface level information, we just send out the proposal and just close it. We've turned more into strike while the iron's hot type. And that makes sense for what, assuming the main body of your work is,

where it's corporate stuff, you know what it is. There's not really anything too crazy to talk about. So yeah, we got an inquiry like a couple of weeks ago and it's like, this job that sounds awesome and Sim was telling me about it. And it's like, I can't put a bit in because I don't know enough about what they're trying to do. It's not a interview, it's not a corporate thing.

It's like, they're talking about commercial stuff. They're talking about like sports and like motorcycle, like, you know, all these things. And it's like, well, I need to know more. And I've had, unfortunately I've had a hard time getting that person on the phone. So that's been kind of a bummer because it sounded like it was gonna be sick.

But I can't send them a proposal because I don't really know what they wanna do. So again, like everything else, it just depends. And I'm with you on those kinds of jobs. Yeah, we we do the same thing. And sometimes I don't even talk to them like that. Like Tim can handle it. We send it in just like you said, strike when the iron's hot.

But there are other jobs where they're more creative, more involved. There's going to be G&E on set. There's going to be specific camera moves. There's going to be like, we want to be really specific about everything. And that is more than just one phone call for us. Yeah, a lot of the time, like Dario handles a lot of those calls as well, like you mentioned, and if it's pretty straightforward, and he knows what I'm going to say with it as well, he just handles that. But if it's something that's going to be a little bit more intensive or creative, like in terms of the creative side of things, that's when I will like go over it with him and see like, this is what we still need to figure out. This is what we need to figure out. And then we can kind of present it based on that. Because yeah, like sometimes if a

lead comes through with such vague ideas that don't really clarify anything. Sometimes those are people that are just also price shopping at the end of the day. They're not actually intending to maybe go full out. It's like, if I did a video with this, listen to this. You'd be surprised, bro. You'd be surprised. I mean, I'm just saying it could be like that, but yeah. Sometimes though, they're vague, but they still want to do it. I'm telling you, the thing that's helped out so much is here is just like, be very fast at responding. Like don't delay, don't take too long.

And then like you'd be amazed. We're with you. Sometimes like they're just in a rush or they don't know enough. Yeah, we've experienced that as well. Maybe in those situations where it's like you pitch something based on those initial call ideas, it's like, okay, that's what we're doing.

And then like later when you get into other aspects, it's like, oh, now they wanna do more, and then it's like, okay, now that might be a situation where it works. I honestly find that first contact email they sent through the contact form, it's like 70% of the time after I booked the intro call with them,

like it's completely different from what they sent me on the contact form. So I always like kind of look at it and go, it's probably something else. In fact, that's actually become one of my like opening lines where I'll say, okay, so, you know, Tim, let me know, X, Y, and Z, is that still true or have things changed now? Like literally that's become part of my vernacular because of that that happens so much

Yeah, I'll go through the details with them on the call and then you know, tell me about Well your company what you guys do. What do you do at this place and then details for the videos sick. Yeah Cool. I think we really unpacked the the the sales process here and even like how to incorporate the creative elements. That's great. I think we're already like a little bit past the one hour mark, but did you have any other like questions that you or topics that you wanted to kind of like focus or ask us? Well, I know we had some back and forth at the beginning of the conversation about your

approach to acquiring the type of work that you want to produce. And my best bud, Daria, over there, believe it or not, seems like we disagreed a little bit. This course is good. So you had mentioned that you didn't like, and correct me if I'm wrong because I might be misremembering that was like an hour ago now, but I think you were saying that you liked doing the, you preferred the spec work because you have all the creative control and you can make a product that you really want to make, right?

As opposed to getting the job for X budget and then putting X budget into the job. Am I correct in remembering that? No, I misunderstood. No, because I think Kirill misunderstood you. Okay, gotcha. And then I was against what Kirill misunderstood. So because Kirill was under the impression of like, if the client doesn't have any budget, you approach the client.

Yeah, no, this was after that though, because you had said like, you would prefer to still go the spec route, because you can have all the creative control, right? If the client has no money. Oh, okay, okay, gotcha. Okay, okay, I'm with you. Well, just for the sake of saying it,

I guess my like, opposing view to that would be as opposed to making a spec work, like when you are able to take that budget and put it into it's not just not just the video that you're getting, but you're also getting that that client and the experience of managing that project along with it. So, well, I've never managed a mountain bike shoot with this type of client. So, you know, yeah, I'm not making a whole lot of money on it, but I'm making it really sick

and I'm getting this experience to do it, you know? So, I felt like that was like a really important point that I wanted to make, but we had moved on. Yeah, we agree. We've had situations in the past where, even recently, for example, there's this e-commerce project we're pitching on. There's something we're pitching on. I think it's e-commerce. And I remember telling Kierle, this is kind of their budget. It's not a lot, but I was telling him, I was like, we really don't have these types of

videos in our portfolio. And during my sales pitches, it's something that would really help. So it's like, we'll take less of a profit on it, but at least we can boost our portfolio with it. So we're totally open to stuff like that. It makes a lot of sense. Unless it's like extremely low budget to the point where It's like and all this is gonna cost us money So we're back to it. Yeah, I love it. This is good. Yeah, it's a lot of the time

It's like a circle if we can keep it where like the thing that the most that These kind of like new projects can cost us is mostly just time We're very open to taking those on like like when I had that also that example before where it was supposed to be a promotional video that was like five minutes and then we pitched it as like, um, like a short documentary that was like 12 to 15 minutes. The only thing that really cost us was time on that aspect. But it's like, if it's something where we have to start hiring and paying other people to come in to do it, it can be, it,

it would have to be a really good project for us to do something like that. And a lot of the times, as Dario mentioned, sometimes he says like, hey, this lead came through, this is their budget, this is what they're thinking about doing, the cool thing is they wanna do it like this, we don't have that in our portfolio, it would really be helpful, do you think you can make it work? And I'm like, yes, let's figure out a way to make it work

within that budget, and even sometimes that changes too to like I remember we had an initial call with them where they wanted to do only like five Or six videos and then all of a sudden they started saying hey, can we prepay for 25 videos? Yeah, wait what that's actually that e-commerce one. Yeah Well, that's why you can afford an editor he jerks You're getting you're getting both 25 video projects like duh He jerks. You're getting both 25 video projects, like duh. It's funny, they're like, can we, they used a wording that we hadn't experienced yet.

They're like, can we get- The prepay, the credit system. No, it was credit. You guys have a credit system. Yeah, credit system, yeah, yeah. And I was like- We're like, what does that mean? I was like, I have no idea what you mean by that.

And basically they wanted to pay in advance because their quarterly year-end is like end of June or something. End of June, yeah. So they wanted to just clear out their budget so that when it renews in July, they have a fresh new budget and then they could just use the credits from that for the... I was like, hey, if it's green, I'll take it. As soon as they said the credit system, Dario was confused, but I got excited.

I'm like, yes, Yes, we can do that Red tag yeah, yeah, we've got a 9% interest rate on that credit 50% 50% off Yeah, that's funny but yeah, like but that but that's like an's an example of where we're looking for different opportunities. Also, sometimes you never know where those opportunities can lead, right? That project is confusing the hell out of me. I haven't sent out the proposal yet because they want these e-commerce videos, but they're also open to more stuff like more stuff like, like their website landing

page video needs to be updated. So I don't even know how to pitch it. It's like, okay, so do we just like, there's so many options with this pot of money. And then there's also the budgets getting renewed and things. So like, yeah, I don't know what they want to do. I'm so confused. I think they're still kind of figuring it out. But like, they just want to start with the e-commerce videos and then

The other stuff was kind of like some ideas that we pitched in the in the meeting like sometimes when we're on these calls We like to throw some ideas at them to get them thinking about other things and then sometimes they're like, oh, yeah We didn't think about that. Let's let's but even the e-commerce stuff It's like, okay, we can make it like they just need it for their that the website like Amazon type of e-commerce ads but it's like okay we can make it really cool too and it's like but it's gonna like I don't know it's sometimes too much I guess I understand how you feel Jeff with like too many unknown variables you're kind of like yeah okay so what are we gonna do with this but yeah yeah that's funny, Jeffrey, thank you so much for jumping on the show with us.

And we appreciate you sharing and also giving some pushback. You know, that's one thing I'm always telling Daryl. I want to get a little more pushback on some of these episodes. I'm your guy, man. I'm here. I'm here to talk shit. We'll bring you on for a specific video. Let's go. Maybe we'll bring you back for a more topic specific video in the future.

Like maybe do like debates, you know, about the industry and we'll see what's good. But, you know, one question we haven't asked many of our guests lately is like, oh, what was the reasoning behind the name of the name of your company? Hmm. Yeah. So Noble Bison. Okay. of your company. Yeah.

So Noble Bison. Okay. So the first part of it is I have an affinity for just naming things after animals. Animals are just awesome and it also promotes like, it's like makes your logo and your branding like really easy. Like yeah, bison. So we're gonna throw a bison on there and that's gonna look cool, right? So like from a marketing perspective, like my brain is like, oh, sweet, like that makes that easy. And then, and I knew

it wasn't it wasn't just gonna be bison productions. And I was like, I need another word with it. And so I went with noble as a way to keep myself accountable that the work that we do and the way that we conduct ourselves is noble. I unfortunately have worked for multiple production companies in the past where I felt like their business dealings were not noble or you would know that there was budget for a video but they would just, you know, they wouldn't put any money into it. They would just pocket all the money and then the clients just getting kind of this like one man band like LED panel bullshit video and that just really bugged me because it was like I understand you got to make money but like also like why can't we make a cool thing like so that that

just really that really got me and and so when I when I set out to do my own thing yeah Noble was kind of like my yeah keeping myself keeping myself accountable. Like it's going to be stuck with you. So like, you know, just remember, you know, what pissed you off back in the day when you were contracting and, and don't be like that and be better. Why, why bison? Oh, bison. Yeah. So I liked bison because I feel like the bison is a really good representation of

the West, you know, we have a lot of bison out this way and we're a Colorado company and it just felt like very Colorado. So yeah, there you go. The noble bison was born. Representing the Wild West. Hell yeah. Yeah. Okay, so for people if they want to find you they just go to noblebisonproductions.com. What's your socials? Our Instagram is noblebisonproductions. I think that's all it is. Let me look.

Find him everywhere at that. You haven't posted on Instagram at all. Hey, no. No, we have. I posted this year. Yeah, so it's I posted this year. Yeah, so it's just, this year! It's just Novel Bison Productions.

Eight weeks ago. Oh, you got a finalist. Yeah, we almost won an award. We didn't win that award. Oh. Hidden Woods won that. Shout out to them if they ever listen to this. They are. They're coming on, I think,

end of this week. All right, we'll tell them I said, hey, well actually, I don't know how well they know me. They kind of know me. But yeah, they won that award Oh, I have an intro call with them on there. Yeah. Yeah with you should start that intro call with like So noble bison says you unfairly snuffed that award from them Yeah, yeah I hope you guys don't hear this episode. Yeah, yeah. So, Noble Bison Productions on socials, based out of Denver, Colorado.

That's right. Right on. Amazing. Well, thanks guys. I really appreciate you reaching out and having me on. This was fun. And let me know whenever you want to do it again. And yeah, if you want more pushback, spice I'm here for it let's do it

nice love it all right thanks all right see you guys thanks for listening to this episode of creatives grab coffee please make sure to follow and engage with us on instagram tiktok linkedin youtube and your favorite podcast app. Creatives Grab Coffee is created by Laps Productions, a video production company based in Toronto, Canada. Creatives Grab Coffee is also sponsored by... My name is Mehran. Welcome to Canada Film Equipment. We are a boutique rental house based in Toronto. We are here to help you guys out with all production sizes.

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