Crime in Sports - #350 - How Old Am I? - Sonny Liston - Part 1

Episode Date: April 11, 2023

This week, we look at maybe the greatest sports crime personality of all time!! He was the heavyweight champion of the world, but is best known for being the guy on the mat, with Ali standing over him, in the most famous sports photo, ever. But his real profession was crime. Lots of crime. He was arrested more times than could be counted, and things only escalated, as he got older. He is, in real life, what Tupac was, in his own rhymes. The legend. The gangster. The champion! Part one is soaked with crime, and the rest will be the same!!Have no idea when you were born, be one of 26 children, and always punch, first, and ask questions, later with Sonny Liston!!Check us out, every Tuesday!We will continue to bring you the biggest idiots in sports history!! Hosted by James Pietragallo & Jimmie Whisman Donate at... patreon.com/crimeinsports or with paypal.com using our email: [e-mail] Get all the CIS & STM merch at crimeinsports.threadless.com Go to shutupandgivememurder.com for all things CIS & STM!!  Contact us on... twitter.com/crimeinsports [e-mail] facebook.com/Crimeinsports instagram.com/smalltownmurderSee Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

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It's an all-new season. Judy Justice. Only on Freebie. Hello and welcome to Crime and Sports! Yay! Yay indeed, Jimmy. Yay indeed. My name is James Petrigallo. I'm here with my co-host. I'm Jimmy Wissman. Thank you folks so much for joining us today. On a wild, this is one of the craziest episodes we've ever had.

And I've been saving it for a long time, for years now. This is episode 350, by the way. Holy shit! We have a milestone episode here 350 and uh this is one i've been saving for a long time it's not going to be one part this is going to be multiple parts not sure if it's two or three we'll see how it goes but this guy is like if this guy's like if he's like what tupac was, if Tupac's rapping persona was a human being, it would be Sonny Liston. And that's what we're going to talk about today because it's bonkers, man.

This guy is a straight fucking gangster. No doubt about it. Oh, my God. Wants to be. Yeah, this is the craziest life. The craziest childhood. I swear to God, I'm not going to do any jokes and make some shit up today. This is all real, so you can invest in it.

It's wild stuff. Before we get to it, very, very quickly, thank you for all that you do for us. Yeah. Head over to ShutUpAndGiveMeMurder.com. New merchandise is up, and also tickets for live shows. Full slate of small-town murder live shows for the rest of the year. They're all on sale. Some of them are sold out. A bunch of them are selling out it's unbelievable minneapolis san diego just sold out they're all selling out quick denver boston so get in there chicago is the one

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For crime and sports that we have, they're back, baby. Personal ads are back. Oh. It's been a while. It's been six months or so. So it's personal ad time again. One of our most popular ongoing series for Patreon. And then for small town murder murder we're going to talk about

in our serial killer childhood series again see what made this monster we're going to talk about btk killer's childhood btk's childhood and it is uh god he's so weird just the way he describes the menace oh my goodness we'll talk all about that patreon.com slash crime and sports and you will of course get a shout out at the end of the show or jimmy you'll fuck your name up more than likely and certainly if it's italian he'll mess it up so it's gonna be fun stuff so get on that do that that said let's do this jimmy we gotta dive right in because we got a lot of gangster happening this week with charles l list Liston, better known as Charles. Old Chucky Liston over here.

Better known as Sonny Liston, obviously. And if you don't know who Sonny Liston is, it's not, you don't have, because, I mean, he's well before our times. He was fucking dead before, well before either one of us were born. So it's not like we have fond memories of Sonny Liston. But number one, as a fighter, he has the most famous, one of the most famous, I'd say top five most famous sports photographs of all time. He's in it. He's in it.

And that is Muhammad Ali standing over a fallen opponent with his arm crooked, yelling that picture that we've all seen everywhere. The guy on the ground is Sonny Liston. That picture that we've all seen everywhere, the guy on the ground is Sonny Liston. And it's really strange because for such a great fighter that did so much to basically be known now as just that guy in that picture that Ali fucking knocked out is crazy. It's just crazy because he did, number one, never mind the boxing and all that kind of shit. The crime he did should be remembered. He boxing and all that kind of shit he just the crime he did should be remembered he's a hall of fame criminal this guy it isn't it's intense man yeah what does the l stand for and cannot cannot find out it's a ulysses s grant it's i think it's one of those nobody has it's funny as shit don't know why now he's born in sans slough arkansas sans slough or stand slow

s-l-o-u-g-h so i think it's slough sans slough arkansas i don't know but i'm gonna say before he's even born grace i'm gonna say grace and i say that for a reason not just to say oh his family sucked we okay there's certain facts that we know most of the time okay we know certain things uh we'll say this is his name this is where he's from he was born here at this place and this is the date he was born on now all right there are some guys old-timey guys where we'll go we don't know an exact date of birth we just know he was born in 1909 or 1911 this guy we don't know his year of birth number one which is strange and you go wow how do we not know but the fucked up part is he doesn't

know his year of birth either and to top it all off his mother's not sure about it either how does she not know wouldn't she there that's why it's Grace right away. If you don't remember pushing something that way, his head is huge. Pushing that from your vagina. I can't help you. I'm sorry. She forgot what year it was he's so big. I'd remember the exact time, the second when that happened because holy shit. He's Trixie from fucking Deadwood.

It just doesn't even remember. I don't know. It doesn't. I don't know. Around this time. Yeah. This is insanity. So let's just start at the beginning here with Sonny Liston and try to figure out what the hell happened with his date of birth and all that sort of thing. A little bit of background on his parents because this helps.

He's born into a sharecropping family oh another one of these so family of sharecroppers yeah and and and he's born in the late in late 20s early 30s so height of the depression height of the depression damn it sharecropping during the height of the depression is tough business shocking that we know his name that's what i mean that he survived all of this yeah they for and the the land they had was shit farmland too they didn't even have good farmland they had bad farmland during the depression and wait till you hear the family situation you go how do you not just kill everybody how do you not nail the door shut burn that place down blow your brains out you know what i mean say this is best for all concerned because it's honestly doing us all a favor.

The strength you have to have to not do that is remarkable. It really is because I think I would. It was the land of the Morledge Plantation near Johnson Township, Arkansas. His father's name is Toby Liston. That's a cool name. Toby Liston. That's a cool name. Toby Liston. That is a cool name. It sounds tough. Toby Liston will kick your ass. I like that name a lot. He'll kick

your ass. He'll kick all his children's asses too. Is that right? Oh boy, Toby. If you were a sharecropper during the Depression and you had as many kids as we're going to talk about, you'd have to just have a belt out at all times you have to have two belts one to wear one just to hold and swing around from time to time because

it's bonkers man he was in his mid-40s when he and his wife here helen is his wife toby and helen are the parents they moved um he she by the way is in her you 20s, and he's in his late 40s or whatever when they move. So they moved from Mississippi to Arkansas in 1916. They came. So it's just tough going all around. I mean, he was, Christ, he was born, shit, and if he's 1916, he was in his 40s already. He was born in like, you know, just post-Civil War. I mean, in Mississippi.

And then going to Arkansas, which was not much better. So that's tough. Helen had one child before she married Toby. Okay. So she had a kid already, married Toby as a teenager. And then Toby already had, he was already married toby as a teenager and then toby already had he was already married and divorced with his first wife he had 13 children already holy 13 children coming into this with yeah double brady bunch 14 between the two between the two then together toby and helen have 12 children what 12 children together 26 children there are 26

total children toby made 25 human beings 25 people toby made that's too many for one person even no matter how great your genetics are no i don't too many people have your genes walking around 25 just you think about the the exponential growth of you know how things work people fucking and this one begats this one who begats that one two generations people are gonna fuck each other not even know it and they're related that's what's gonna go on when you have that many people too many people too many people and at that point it's like multiplicity're going to have some that are not good. Yeah, it's not good at all. And Sonny is the second to youngest as well. He's almost the last.

Yes. The drip drop of the gist. He's the kid on the wire that comes out where Wallace tells him to share with the other kid. He's one of those kids where he's like, I don't have juice boxes for both of you. You got to share with them. Have a sip of his. Yeah. Sonny was just hardly more than a wet spot, honestly, at this point.

His dad must have been running jizz dry. Right? The well must have been running sort of dry. For sure at the end of it. My God. So they ask him about his family, and he says, there's so many quotes from Sonny Liston in this, which is fucking amazing. And we haven't even gotten to when he was born yet. This is just his family, and he says, there's so many quotes from Sonny Liston in this, which is fucking amazing. And we haven't even gotten to when he was born yet.

This is just his family. This is pre-birth. That's why this needs multiple parts, because it's so fucked up. There were 24 children running around before he was born. Before he was born, and it's so fucking crazy that his dad is just putting that many children out there. That's unbelievable. How horny are you

like enough already there's at that point it's just that's that's to kill the boredom right you have to realize there are consequences to your horniness by this point you know what i mean while you're sharecropping trying to feed these mouths like you can't be bored you've got so many children to feed how are you bored again, I have time to fuck. You have like an army of sharecroppers now to help you. So that's also maybe you've got nothing to do. Yeah. I mean, that's I don't know.

That's so strange. So he says, Sonny says, quote, Let's see. My mother had either 12 or 13 children. Either. No, I'm sure it was 13. Then they asked him, could you name them and he could only account for nine of them though that's impressive in itself i can't believe it that's not bad but you should probably get all all 12 i would have thought i'd imagine it's like a third yeah you can you can get them um he said eb ward he's. A boy child, almost 40 years old now. This is back when he did this interview.

It's been a good while since I've seen him. Next comes J.T. Always called him Shorty. Probably just because he couldn't remember J.T. It's easier. That many people. E.B. and J.T.? E.B., J.T., and he's close behind E.B.

After J.T., there's Leo, and then just he's simple leo very easy you're going leo with him then my sister's clarity clarity with an e clara t uh annie alcorra curtis not curtis like curtis mayfield curtis with an ice at the end to make it, you know, now it's a girl's name, Curtis. Now you can name your girl Curtis. That's perfect. Like justice. Wow. Curtis. That is not.

I picture a big man when I picture Curtis. I don't want to name my girl Curtis. Me and Wesley. Annie and me was closest, and I see a lot of her. She always kids me because I was bigger than her, yet she would rock me to sleep. of her she always kids me because i was bigger than her yet she would rock me to sleep curtis and jt get together with me sometimes and i saw wesley the baby in 58 or 59 but the others have wandered off someplace who knows where they are who by then there's a couple that are dead right the shit knows it has to be a couple dead a couple ones in prison yeah you know one is doing this one is

just by odds i mean you have such a just that's too many free-range children such a huge sample size really anything's anything has to be going on at this point right one of them's president and one of them's murdered when they're 14 like there no difference. Now, the mystery of his birth, let's talk about here. Here's the date they use sometimes. Here's the sometimes date that seems to be the most common date used. May 8, 1932. Okay. Now, Sonny, Jesus Christ, Sonny says, well, his father once told him, or an older person once told him,

your father was a champion in his own right once he became heavyweight champion because he fathered 25 kids. That's pretty impressive. That's a king. That's a king. Your father's done something. Give him a belt of some kind. Hopefully a chastity belt. Give him, never mind a championship belt.

He needs a belt that keeps him from fucking more. Make it out of gold whatever wow yeah whatever it takes to do put a couple diamonds on it i don't care make it fancy but just keep him from from fucking out of it no shit there's no official record of sunny liston's birth because arkansas did not require mandatory birth certificates until i'll give you a guess what year 1974 it's 65 which is just as bad the 60s there are people still alive today that do not have a birth certificate yeah we you had there was color television and people were being born without anything being written down there's a man on the moon and they were not writing anything not quite yet but they were planning it and working on it 69 69 yeah so civil rights just passed and all that shit still though jfk's been murked we're

still not writing don't worry about it yeah just keep an oral history everybody remember when little sonny was born. Or was it 67? 67. 67. Almost. But the Mustang comes out this year. The Corvette certainly exists. Absolutely.

Absolutely. There's been eight years of Corvettes. The Corvette is rolling around on the street and we're not writing down. People are cruising around 63 stingrays with the split back window and no writing it down nope don't care it's all good now it was written down though his birth not officially in a birth certificate you know where they wrote it down jimmy carved it down on on the bed post that would make sense actually but no this is worse he was carved on a tree he told people but then the tree was chopped down yeah no one bothered to take note of the birth date fucking carved into the side of it no one bothered to go hey should we write that part down let's see this seems like

important information nope if you got to remember 25 days throughout the year to give a gift or bake a cake, you might forget one. That's for sure. But it's easier to write something than carving it into a tree. That's what I don't understand. Just write it down. Jot that shit down quick. Sonny, 10, 12, 29. I don't give a fuck.

Who cares? Preferably in the hospital. That would be terrific. By a man with a PhD. I don't think they weren't having kids in the hospital. That would be terrific. By a man with a PhD. I don't think they were having kids in the hospital. No, I'm sure they weren't. These are home births. These are definitely home births.

Now, when he's arrested in 1950, he gave his age as 22, which would make his date of birth 1928 or 27, depending on if he had a birthday yet. which would make his date of birth 1928 or 27, depending on if he had a birthday yet. When he filed for a birth certificate for legal reasons in 1953, because, you know, he needed to exist officially to, like, you know, do things. He said his date of birth was May 8th, 1932, which is four years later than he said then. So he said he's younger than at that point then in 1960 he will testify before a u.s subcommittee a u.s senate subcommittee oh yeah he gets that deep he said then they said well you

know who your name and date of birth and all that and he said he was born in 1933 to the senate so over like a seven a 10-year period he changed his date of birth from 28 to 33 so we have no idea that's awesome his mother said he was born on january 8th 1932 that's what his mother said okay okay but that's even that's not really all that this is is so murky. There's like there's a little like larva swimming in it, like mosquito larva and shit. And the water is that murky. Do we know when his youngest brother is born or sister? Youngest sibling. Jimmy.

Because we could nail down his date based on that, right? From what I understand, his youngest sibling is born somewhere between 29 and 34, probably, if he's somewhere between 28 and 33. That's all I know. So his mother said January 8, 1932, and she said the date was recorded in a family Bible, but the Bible was lost somewhere along the way. So sometimes when asked, she says January 8, 1932. Sometimes she said it was january 18th 1932 she said quote i know he was born in january so we have that why they say quote it was cold in january okay so sunny liston was born when it was cold sometime between 1928 and 1933 at a cold at a cold moment at some point

we're not quite sure when mom needed blankets that day that's why i remember yes how about the fact you just had a baby remember that because there's a baby in the room now it's carved in a tree outside if you want to go we just carved it in a tree. So up that tree, we chopped it down. Never mind. I don't know what is happening, man. You have responsibility to keep another person alive. I don't know how today that started.

What? What are you talking about? Didn't she ever take the kid to the doctor and they go, how old is she? It beats the shit out of me. I don't know. When he's like seven, that would be a big swing. Either three or seven. I'm not sure.

I don't know. It was cold. He was born when it was cold, if that helps. Here he is and plops him up on the table. What the fuck is that? Come on, man. It was cold. Like, I get poor.

Poor is one thing. You know? I get it. Yeah, but it was cold. Like, I get poor. Poor is one thing. You know? I get it. Yeah, but it was cold. It was cold sometime between this year and this year? I know Roosevelt was president. I know Hoover was president. Or maybe not, because Roosevelt was elected in 32.

Shit, I don't know. God damn it. Maybe. Hold on. It was I don't know. God damn it. Maybe. Hold on. It was either Hoover or Roosevelt. I'm not sure. One of the two. That is amazing.

That's fucking wild. Now, a Liston biographer, Nick Toshes, he said that a sibling's birth was registered as january 8th and she mixed them up so she just was like you must have mixed her sunny up with somebody else that was born january 8th so maybe it wasn't cold we don't know we have no idea see what i mean all this information where are we back to nothing we know no information gone no sometime in the 20s or 30s sunny liston was born that's all we know stuck in the arkansas muck stuck in the arkansas mud there's mud in the tires i never heard of that before how do you get mud in the tire i never heard of that before all right so other times when asked later on by biographers and journalists and such, she said he was born between 1929 and 1930, which is way different from 32.

I don't know what to say here, man. Sometime in this 12 to 24 month period yes yes sometime in there possibly then but she said sometime then but then a year later she told another writer that she quote thought he was born in 27 which is a whole new year we've now introduced to this we're putting a whole new year into this bad boy. You don't understand. Times were tough and it was cold. I don't know. I was very cold.

Nobody in the country had a dime. It was cold and our fucking chair cropping was all fucked out. That's it. It was all we had. The ground was shit. But you know what was fertile? My uterus. Extremely fertile.

That's what was fertile. My uterus and his balls were more fertile than this ground. I mean, the ground sucked, but man, could we make kids. We couldn't. We couldn't. The sharecropping of actual crops was hard, but the sharecropping of children, very easy. We were sharecropping the fuck out of my uterus. They were great at making kids.

So now it's sometime between 27 and 33 okay it's a big window yeah but then a boxing writer uh here that followed liston a lot said that he thought she confused the year of his birth with the year of another sibling which was 27 so now it's the dates the month and the years with two different siblings they're confusing and another time she said she believed that his birthday was july 22nd which is not cold at all in arkansas it's very hot it's the middle of this it's like the dead center middle of the summer is what that is tornado warning centralado warning central. You would know. If you go, when's the hottest time? You go, I don't know, like July 22nd, probably.

So he was born. It's like the longest day of the year, too. It is. So just to be clear, he was born sometime between the Hoover administration and the early Franklin Rooseveltvelt administration sometime between 27 and 33 and it was either it was either the hottest longest day of the year or it was cold we're not sure what i'm saying is we have no utter fucking clue when this man is born and the more she talks the more confused we

are the more confused we are over the years she says more and more and they go well that didn't help at all we're looking for clarification and instead now that we've added another year to the mix we were at least narrowing it down from 28 to 33 now Now you're throwing 27 in there. That is one way to get us off the trail of when his actual birthday is. This is fucking crazy, man. I'm sorry, but to not know anywhere near it. Jesus Christ, man. So when the records of the 1930 U.S. Census were released in 2002, access to personally identifiable

information from the records is restricted for 72 years at that point. So when it finally came up, Liston's name was not, Sonny wasn't on that census. So when they finally got to look at it, he wasn't listed. So possibly born after the 1930

census was taken, which is like in 1929. So maybe born after the 1930 census was taken which is like in 1929 so right maybe born after 29 but maybe not maybe they just didn't mention that they had a baby or a kid that wasn't born for two years or a three-year-old maybe they didn't mention it we don't know i wonder what was happening that either made them confuse it or made them not want to talk about it i think there's just so many i think they just forgot i think they're so busy and life is so hard and it's so difficult just to put food on the table for this massive family that i think it's you just and there's so many kids you just forget i plumb forgot i don't fucking know birth certificates come in handy it's escaped me it's i i done forgot so i i would

i mean yeah i might forget to shit. Yeah, sure. I mean, you ever stop and go, oh, fuck. What is that one date? Imagine having 25 kids. You wouldn't remember any of those dates. That's that's how busy they are just trying to survive. And that's what a lot of people don't understand about how fucking broke people behave.

When we're when we're that broke the most common sense shit escapes it's survival survival takes a breathe yeah survival takes all your energy yeah you know it's like when you're playing the sims yeah and you you don't like turn any of the things off and you have to like make them eat and make them shit and make them sleep and make them do you have no time for anything else all you do they're constantly hungry or shitting or pissing themselves or upset about fucking Jesus Christ. You just shit. What is wrong with you? Why do I have to tell you?

Why? Why do I have to take you in there again? Hold it. Be an adult for Christ's sake. You're yelling at these computer people because they have to piss again. But that's what it is. At bare minimum, when you have bare minimum, that's all you're focused on because you can't do it. No time.

You can't. No time. So now 1940, those census records, they had a Charles L. Liston on the Liston family card, and they listed his age at 10 at that point. So he might have been born in 1930. But at the same time, we don't know if they just said like 10-ish. You know what I mean? We don't know. The size of a 10-year-old looks good.

That's fucking wild. So the date that they try to give him of like maybe this is the one, this Toledo Springs or Springs Toledo is his name. It doesn't really matter. It's a guy's's name so it's a silly name either way um so he says he believes that liston may have been born july 22nd 1930 that's that's the best guess we have is july 22nd 1930 which when she when mom says it was cold yeah and then she says it might have been July. It's difficult. Ruins everything. Kind of fucks the whole deal up here.

So now during his youth, either way, we know he was born at some point. He was alive. Yeah. I've seen pictures of him. It's never taken us 29 minutes to establish birth on this show before, by the way. It's the greatest thing that ever happened. Usually that's 30 seconds. He's born here. Here's his family. establish birth on this show before by the way it's the greatest thing that ever happened usually that's 30 seconds he's born here here's his family 29 minutes to establish a birth date and we failed

by the way we didn't actually establish it we don't know no one knows so how the hell are we gonna find out we're just making fun of everybody else's mistakes time travel to be there to know well you have to time travel to be there to know. Well, you have to. It's amazing. The wait is over. So far, you're not losing. The only thing you're losing is my patience.

Quickly, I see that. Bing! The queen of the courtroom is back. I didn't do anything. You wouldn't know the truth if it came up and slapped you in the face. I see he's not intimidated by anything. I can fix that. New cases. She wanted to fight me. Leave her alone. Okay, so. This is not a so. This is a period. Classic Judy. Did you sleep with her? Yes, Your Honor. You married his cousin. His brother.

That's not him. Yes, ma'am. I would make a beeline for the door. The Emmy Award winning series returns. How did I know that? I have a crystal ball in my head. It's an all new season. It's streaming.

You can say anything. Judy Justice. Only on Freebie. You can say anything. Judy Justice. Only on Freebie. If you don't know when Crystal Pepsi was discontinued, what was in Al Capone's vault,

or which famous meteorologist is Lenny Kravitz's second cousin, then you haven't spent enough time on Wikipedia. But that's okay. I am here for you. I'm Darcy Carden, and I'm inviting you to listen to my new podcast, WikiHole, from SmartList Media. Discover the craziest rabbit holes on Wikipedia with me and my funny friends as we bring the cyber frontier directly to your tympanic membrane. And if you listen to my podcast, you'd learn that that's the science-y term for eardrum. We embark on a

hyperlink rollercoaster as we start out on a Wikipedia page and go from link to link to link to link, careening through trivia, oddities, and unexpected connections until we collectively shout, how the hell did we get here? Follow WikiHole on the Wondery app or wherever you get your podcasts. You can listen to WikiHole ad-free by joining Wondery Plus in the Wondery app or on Apple Podcasts. During his youth, he said that Toby beat him so bad that the scars were still visible when he was an adult from his beatings. Oh, my God. Sonny said, quote, the only thing my old man ever gave me was a beating, which is one of the better quotes of all time.

We really let's not just blow past what an incredible quote that is for crime and sports. The only thing my old man ever gave me was a beating. That is a classic crime and sports. That is a real joker. Want to know how I got these scars? Got a moment. Absolutely not good. It's a real joker.

Want to know how I got these scars kind of moment. Absolutely. It's not good. He said that when the weather was good, I'd work in the fields. And when it was bad, I'd go to school. So he went to school when it rained, man. Or like when it was cold out. And there was no cropping to be done. He'd go to school then.

That's like a third of the days. Sometimes he'd go to school. He said, my father worked me hard. Sure, I'd get to fooling around when he wasn't looking, but he'd catch me and whoop me. And I mean whoop with a U, he says. Catch me and whoop me. Man, I bet I caught a whooping every day. If I didn't, I wouldn't know what to do.

So that was just the way he knew he was alive was to get beat so might as well go into boxing like i mean yeah um he said if my father missed a day i'd have to go i'd have to go wake him up and ask how come you didn't whoop me today wow wow that's something hey so sad you? I haven't gotten a beating today. Smack. Oh, thank you. Jesus. Good. Okay. No, Dad's fine. Dad's fine. He's alive. My lip is bleeding.

I was 13 when my father and me got in this fight, and he whooped me. By this time, I figured I was too big to be whooped. Like, he figured he was too big to be getting beat like a kid. Like, you can't be beating me anymore. Now I'm an adult. Now it's a fight, not a beating type of thing. So I decided to run away to St. Louis. I assume he means St. Louis.

St. Louis, where my mother was staying with Alcora and Curtis. So mom had already taken off away from this asshole. So anybody who has 25 kids, you really have to question their a judgment and b responsibility i would say so and that's a bummer too for her because if if we're in this lifestyle of like being yeah obviously not very well off to leave you have to shoot you have to do the sophie's choice thing and decide what to leave behind gotta leave these ones yeah that's wild and it just to be a he dad had a tough life working in that field and who knows what the hell he grew up like so

this is brute not make an excuse for him but holy shit like this whole family it's it's hard there's a a cycle that needs to be broken here um in 1946 uh mom here hel Helen, she moved with some of her children to St. Louis to work in a factory. And then Sonny, he says around age 13, remained in Arkansas with his father. So he says he was 13 when she left in 46. So that would make him born in 33. So we have no

again, we're fucking confused. It's not 1930 anymore. I don't know, is what I'm saying. He said, one morning I got up early and thrashed the pecans off my brother-in-law's tree and carried the nuts to town and sold them. That gave me enough money to buy a train ticket to St. Louis. So he went poaching pecan fucking to get out of there. I figured the city would be like the country, and all I had to do was ask somebody where my my mother lived and they'd tell me she lived down the road a piece good luck son down the road a piece he said just show up in st louis you know where this lady is oh she lives down the road a

piece that's wow and then you just walk over yonder in that direction yeah yonder oh okay yonder thanks i'll be ahead i'll be moseying on you on yonder here so it's amazing anything got accomplished back then when they'd say yonder and a piece how would you know how far a piece is make a left at the old macintosh barn like that used to be there yeah and go down a piece yonder fuck out of here he said quote but when i got there there were two doggone many people there and i just wandered around lost that could have told you he was like nathan johnson he's like the jerk that's where he went st louis same thing yeah went to st louis and wandered around uh but what he found a dog named asshole oh my Oh, my God. This is incredible. He said, but one morning I told my story to a wino, as one has want to do.

That is rock bottom. I'm here. I don't know where to go. Hello, sir. You look like a sympathetic ear. What is that, Sutter Home? Can we talk? Hello, only guy whose life has been worse than mine

want to chat for a while you look lost maybe we can help each other oh man holy shit you look like you don't remember your name I told my story to a wino and he says I favor this lady that lives down the street he took me over to the house and i knocked on the door and my brother my brother i thought that was a sister he said before is his brother fucking curtis or is his sister curtis it's got to be a sister he said sister twice and now he said and my brother curtis opened the door is there a brother curtis and a sister curtis there might be bro i am so confused with this man's family.

I don't know when he was born. I don't know who Curtis is. I got a lot of problems here. It's amazing that we know who he is, that a wino could have just knifed him on the streets of St. Louis. That would have been the end of it. A wino knifes him. He fell into the gutter. And that's that.

And it's just some random dude who doesn't have a birthday that's all just some guy we don't know who he is jesus how old is he beats the shit out of me i don't even know where he's from his parents wouldn't know about it none of this shit instead a wino takes him over to his gender non yeah i don't know just not ambiguously gendered sibling. Very forward thinking family. I don't know. He said, from then on, I stayed with my mother. That's probably for the best, I assume. You may want to hang around there because the wino said he favors her.

You got a drunk homeless guy with a crush on your mom. Maybe stick around a while. I think with a crush on his sister, maybe. Oh. That's possible. Or brother. We don't know. Who knows? We crush on his sister, maybe. Oh. That's possible. Or brother. We don't know. Who knows?

We don't know. We also. Either curse. I also don't know when this wino was born either. This whole thing is real precarious. He said, from then on, I stayed with my mother. She put me in school, but I was so much bigger than the other children and didn't stay long. Yeah, because you're probably 17.

That's the thing. He thinks he's 13. How old am I, Mom? What grade should I be in? Well, you're about 13. Put you in about the eighth grade. Meanwhile, he's 17. He's driving.

He's trying to pick up 12-year-olds because that's what's around. What's happening? He doesn't know how old he is. How can you go to school if you don't know how old you are? How do you do that? In school, when you're a kid, what's the first thing everybody asks you? How old are you? It's the first fucking question people ask you.

They don't care about anything else about your life. Are we the same age? Right before your name, because if you're older than me, I don't give a fuck about your name. We're not going to be friends. Oh, you're my age. Good. Instead, he goes goes and goes to school how do they do that so he said other kids you know seen me coming out of and then he pauses

and he says i was such a large boy yeah probably because you were 20 um other kids would see me coming out of such small kids rooms and they would make fun of me and start laughing and i started fighting so yeah yeah son and sonny ain't afraid of anybody because toby's been kicking his ass he goes hey where's my where's my beating as he shakes his dad awake like yeah he ain't afraid of you at all he said and then i started playing hooky and from hooky i led to another thing so i wound up in the wrong school well the house of detention, which isn't a school. That's the school you belong in.

When you do that, thanks. I wound up in the wrong school. Well, a jail is appropriate. Yeah, it wasn't a school. That's fucking crazy.

I went to college real young, real young. Uh, he said, quote, I got to run in with the wrong crowd. We broke into this restaurant about two in the morning and got away. Okay.

But after we had gone 10 blocks, we decided to stop and get some barbecue. Okay. So they robbed a store or robbed a restaurant at 2 a.m., ran away, which is okay. That's crime. That's working. Robbed a store or robbed a restaurant at 2 a.m., ran away, which is okay. That's crime. That's working. They stopped 10 blocks away just to eat some barbecue. You smell that, Gray?

So there's not a lot of people out at that time. Right. And whoever did it, that's just not smart. It's probably the kids eating barbecue. Let's check on them. And then police came along and barbecued us he says yeah they just hey you're the only three out do you have anything from this place he said i got out on probation i was 16 then weighing over 200 pounds 16 to 20 somewhere between 14 and 20 he was we don't know i was either a very large 16 year old orold or an average 20-year-old.

Just an average 20-year-old with a little bit of a barbecue problem, put a couple extra pounds on. He said, I was in a lot of street fights. I used to punch first and ask questions later. That's the way those guys do. That's what he said. You just hit people and then find out if you hit the right person you piss him off or you you act stupid or you he thinks you're trying to fuck him over he's gonna hit you first and then figure it out later i guess which he got used to the city quick

anyway i mean he got used to st louis real fast he said i guess i was the biggest strongest guy on the corner none of the other gangs would mess with me and so i started to strut with this gang and wound up in a bigger house you know oh prison actual jail not me and my mom and my sisters ended up in a better place to live i went there um he says you know this is a great quote you know what let's let's go ahead and we'll give you the details but let's let him sum it all up on his own and in their own words. I think we need an in their own words for this one because holy shit. In their own words, quote, some sucker sold me a gun to be shot only on Saturday night. That's the only time you needed it.

I never shot a gun before, so I held it up in the sky and pulled the trigger. The gun lit up and I, thinking I was on fire, thinking it was on fire, threw it in the mud. What the fuck? Some sucker sold me a gun to be shot only on Saturday night. I don't know what that means. Is that a Saturday night special 25 caliber? Is that what he means? I mean, a Saturday night special, but to be shot only on Saturday night? What the fuck does that mean?

Does that mean he only goes out? Is there a timer on it? It has a safety that only unlocks on Saturday. Yeah, it's a timer. What is happening, man? That's the only time you needed it, to be shot only on Saturday. I don't understand any of that, but let's find out what happened here to get him in jail. This is from the record, the official record.

Victim number one reported the number one assailant here struck him in the mouth. Actually, it's listed in the report as victim reported the number one Negro struck him in the mouth. Let's go with a different word. Let's go with assailant. What do you say? Yeah, I like that so much better. But that's the official record. I'm just giving you what it says here. He said, knocking him to the street, after which all three assailants, quote unquote,

held him down and removed from his left hip trousers pocket his billfold containing $6. Oh, Jesus. So Sonny ran up, punched him in the mouth. His friends held him down, and they took six bucks from this guy. Two bucks a piece. His friends held him down, and they took six bucks from this guy. Two bucks apiece. Victim reported three assailant men threw dirt in his face, then beat him and dragged him into an alley where they knocked him down, kicked him, and one of the men took from his right trouser pocket $9.

This is a different victim. These are all different people that this is. So they were just going around jacking people. $3 intervals. Yeah. I mean, there's three of them. So they're splitting $9 take here. Another victim here.

Victim reported three assailants came up behind him and pulled him into a vacant lot and took from his person his brown leather billfold, which was in his left hip trousers pocket, which contained about $45. Oh, that's a score. So I guess if you, it's a, it's a numbers game here. You gotta, you gotta rob a lot of people. You get somebody with some cash on them. Eventually.

I'm impressed that they haven't had to, had to make change yet. They got $9. That's three a piece. They got six or two a piece, 15 a piece. They're doing great. We hadn't had to get quarters yet. This're doing great we haven't had to get quarters yet this is amazing we haven't had to go in and be like listen who has changed for a 10 seriously can you break a five somebody anybody um it says then quote they walked to the rear of the filling

station and looked in the window and saw the attendant was by himself. Oh, boy. At this time, a man dressed in a soldier's uniform who appeared to have been drinking walked up. A drunken soldier walked up. And Liston grabbed him around the neck from the rear, bent him backwards, and held him while Jordan, his friend, searched his pockets. Okay. They're just, if they see somebody, Sonny just physically manhandles them and they rifle the pockets. Like, this is a wild strategy for crime. It really is.

There's no reason. Quote, he found a nickel, which he kept. A nickel. We got to break that. They took a nickel off the guy. Wow. They went into the filling station and Jordan asked the attendant to sell him a can of gas and when the attendant turned around sonny grabbed him around the neck this is his move

yeah i dope you up and you fucking everybody searches you here informed him to be quiet or he would get hurt and said this is a hold up yeah now you're holding up, you know, a gas station. Yeah, this is some shit here. That was another time. Here's another time. They passed a lunchroom and observed that there was only one man there and that it looked like an easy spot. Belt, who was his other friend, took a pistol from under the front seat and gave it to Liston. Okay. Sonny really doesn't need a gun.

That's the thing about Sonny Liston. and gave it to liston okay sunny really doesn't need a gun that's the thing about sunny liston um liston and jordan entered the lunchroom and when liston took the gun out of his pocket jordan grabbed it out of his hand and pointed it at the man behind the counter and said this is a hold up yeah we know so these are all reports of how they've been robbing people this is tons of police reports of they went from from like i get you could say innocent mugging but like much lower crime of taking three bucks off of a guy yeah yeah all the way up to liquor or gas station and now a fucking restaurant yeah that's that's they're accelerating fast and they went from breaking in at two in the morning when it was closed to right now there's people in there which is better because then you can rob them too is a a huge acceleration it's a lot man um so

they're called the uh he is called the yellow shirt bandit by the way that is what he's called here um january 15th 1950 um charles this is a another from the report, Charles Sonny Liston, robbery first degree, two counts, larceny from a person, two counts. He is sentenced to, he pleads guilty here to robbery first. Robbery first means deadly, dangerous weapon. Robbery first degree, larceny. Okay. He pleads guilty to all this and he is sentenced to, my goodness, you, sir, may fuck off five years in the pen for each charge. Oh, wow.

But to run concurrently. So five years. And he is called the yellow shirt bandit in the newspapers, and he was known around as the yellow shirt bandit which maybe don't wear a yellow shirt while you're what's worse orange that's it that's the only thing that's the only they're those colors on clothes are literally made so people don't hit you with a car accidentally shoot you with a gun they're made for safety they're called safety orange and safety yellow for a reason. You're forced to wear that as you pave a road so that drivers can see you and know not to hurt you. That's crazy, but he wears that for robberies because he really wants to be. And that's his jam, too.

He did it for all of them. That's his robbing shirt. He has a, oh, where's my robbing shirt? Hold on. It's my good luck robbery shirt. I got to get that. Everybody sees me do that. That's my strong Armin shirt.

Better grab it. So when he was caught in 1950, he said he was 20 years old, but the St. Louis Globe Democrat newspaper reported that he was 22 years old. Oh, who knows? So he started his prison sentence on June 1st, 1950. He goes to prison. Five-year bid. Five years, to do five years in the Missouri State Penitentiary.

Jesus. Hard times. Sonny's life has not been great so far. Hasn't fought a round of boxing except for getting pummeled by his dad. He's gotten beat up by his dad and beaten up men on the streets. Other than that, we haven't even mentioned boxing as far as an interest of his. You know, he was doing this when he was a kid. None of that shit.

Not a sparring match yet. And for a guy who is such a known and successful boxer, heavyweight champion of the world and all of this, boxing is like 10% of this episode of the whole series because it's so much crime jimmy it's so much so much sentenced to five years at 20 at least 20 years 20 23 22 21 and he's gonna stand in with muhammad ali eventually this is unbelievable 14 years he's gonna be having the biggest fight of the century at the time that's 14 years from now the most recognizable snap in the history of boxing is about to happen it's insane man and he's going to prison right now he's going to prison so did

sonny hate prison what do you think he loved it he had to love it he said quote adored it quote i didn't mind prison yeah Yeah, it's the greatest. I didn't mind prison, no. I figure I had to pay for what I did. No use crying. I should have tried that before I did wrong. Okay. He said, it's all in the game, baby.

That wasn't the words I was expecting. I was expecting, there was a bed every day. Yeah, it was wild. It was crazy. Food, every meal, showed up. All the time. Yeah, it was wild. It was crazy.

Food. Every meal. Showed up. All the time. No, but this is, I mean, he just said the 1950 version of it's all in the game, baby. That's what happens. Yeah, you got to take it. So he did, you're going to laugh at this.

He said the food at the prison was, quote, the best he'd ever eaten. Oh, my God. Exactly right. You had it and you nailed it. Horrifying. Best he'd ever eaten by the way the this is such an unpopular opinion in jail in that prison the the prisoners made such a big deal out of the food for years that it culminated in a riot in 1954 that was 100 in protest of the bad food sonny's like why you guys so mad sunny there's shit flying

the sirens are going sort teams running and he's sitting there still eating off the tray just grabbing other people's trays fuck it y'all gonna fight about it i'll just eat this shit just two forks both hands double fisted it like fuck he's wrong with you people man more for me you guys are gonna make this food better? How are you going to do that? Holy shit. Jesus, are you going to put a maitre d' in here? This place is perfect.

I didn't expect him to be impressed with the cuisine. I was just expecting him to be impressed that it showed up. Best food he's ever eaten. The quality. The quality. Well, think about it. After, like, mom left, what do you think Toby was providing as meals? Oh, dear Lord, I can't imagine.

What do you think a sharecropper with 25 kids and likes to beat them all the time, we think he was cooking? Come on, kids. Dino chicken fucking shaped things are ready. No, that's not what he's doing. It's bread and water, right? Who knows? It's meant for yourselves, I would assume. Lots of grits.

He loved it, though. He was like, this is great, man. Sonny, the day he was paroled here, a guy he knows named Monroe Harrison, who will later become his co-manager, bought him a chicken dinner as a treat. And it's like a whole chicken there. And said, here, you got out of prison, have a chicken, like a like a whole chicken there. Yeah. And so here you got out of prison. Have a have a chicken like a rotisserie chicken, I assume a whole chicken, you know, like Bruno Sam Martino after he won the title. Just chicken and milk. It's chicken here. Have a chicken dinner, you know, and he wasn't eating it.

He said he said that Sonny was just staring at the chicken sitting at the table. And the guy said, why don't you eat it, man? We're like, what the fuck? And Sonny said, quote, I don't know how. He didn't know how to eat a chicken. He's never had a chicken. He's eaten gruel and slop and shit that's like with a fork or a spoon. A whole chicken.

He's like, I don't know how to get in there. How do you get in there? There's a protective coating on the outside I can't get through do i just pick it up and start biting it like i don't know how this fucking he didn't literally did not know how to eat a chicken it's not a pizza man you can't just pick it up and bite it that's fucking crazy and he is somewhere at this point between you know 26 and 30 years old and he doesn't know how to eat a chicken this is fucking crazy yeah this is a man that's certainly old enough to father a family. Oh, absolutely, but not carve that chicken, though.

Carve the chicken. I can't. I'm sorry. Not for me. Bad Thanksgivings at Sonny's house later on. Just never really was good. He also loved his job in the prison. He loved his job there.

He was like, this place is great. He liked his job, and then they'd feed him the food that was the best he ever had. He thought it was amazing. And they're going to send him out to figure out how to eat a chicken? I want to go back in. Yeah, it was easier. That's what happens to a lot of guys. He's had a rough, unstable life.

So to this point, this is the most stability I've ever had. He actually enjoys it. I want to be a part of that. I want to be a part of an adult. You want to be in prison? No, no, no. I want to be a part of an adult eating a chicken for the very first time. I do, too.

I want to see that. I want them to look at it. I want to see the wonderment. I'm looking at it from different angles. You can't see at home. I'm looking under it. Peeking under, yeah. Looking under the table to see if there's an anchor that I don't see or anything.

Like a dad buying a used car for his daughter. Yeah. Opening the hood, looking around at it, looking at it. I don't know. Okay. Doesn't know shit about cars. I want to see him reach in the neck hole and pick it up and be like, where do I start? Just hold it by this and eat it?

Stick my fist in here? Is that how it works? I want to see it so bad that's amazing but i think nowadays everybody have seen there's so many videos of everything everyone's seen a chicken being you know what i mean you saw mickey mouse carve the turkey on yeah you know i mean in cartoons i don't think he saw a lot of cartoons i don't think so i don't think he had a lot of real entertainment options as a child this guy i to be told that was a chicken i don't think he's ever seen a cooked chicken it's like damn what is this yeah probably not what do they cook so he loved uh this job he

said quote i was a runner you know i ran messages or carried clothes to the dry cleaners i got the job because father stevenson was always in my corner okay so he had a priest in there that was down with him that That is Father Stevenson. Later on, his real name is Father Stevens, by the way. Sonny calls him Father Stevenson. Nobody knows why. Just because he fucked it up. Names and birthdates don't matter, James.

Yeah. He always calls him. He's always in his corner. Huge influence in his life. Has no idea what his name is. Listen, my mom doesn't know when i was born you think i'm gonna memorize your name get fucked what the fuck is happening i'm adding i'm adding letters to your name to make it easier for me because i don't fucking care i don't't care, Father Stevenson. Okay, whatever, fine. Father Stevenson.

Father Stevenson. Just a complete wrong name. He was always in my corner. That's not his name. He said that he was also perhaps the most beneficial influence of his life. Fuck his name. Sure wish I could remember his name, man. Most important man I've ever met. I mean, if it it wasn't for him i don't know where i'd be who the fuck was he again i don't know

shit oh my god that is incredible that is i mean the i that's literally living for tomorrow like or or is it right now what is it what is that right this minute in the moment i love this guy and he was like well the motherfucker was great what was it who was he again that's wow that's always about looking forward never looking back you can't look back because you'll fucking die right and why i remember people's names he's got so many siblings to remember his name bank is all full up just in family here. He's only nine of the 25. That's what I mean. So far, this is insane.

And we haven't gotten anything accomplished here with his life. But it's incredible how incredible this story is. The only thing we know for sure is Sonny Liston is a menace. He is dangerous. He existed, and you don't want to fuck. If you see him walking down the street, cross to the other side. That's what we know for sure is sonny liston is a menace he is dangerous he existed and you don't want to fuck if you see him walking down the street cross to the other side that's what we know at this point so he said that father stevenson uh also the athletic director at the prison okay that's another thing he did and he suggested heyny, you like to beat people into insolvency and unconsciousness.

You shake people's pockets. You're good at that, right? And he was like, yeah, I kick people's asses all the time. And he was like, why don't you try boxing where you're supposed to punch someone and they won't arrest you for it? There you go. It's pretty cool. And then they'll give you money just like if you robbed him. It's pretty neat.

Yeah. Think of it as you're robbing him. him think about as the whole purse that you could win he already has that and if you beat him up then you can take it right there you go boxing and you don't go to jail for it sonny no people will praise you as a matter of fact they'll put you in the paper and say how great you are and pat you on the back so he said that and um and so he said yeah sure what the fuck why not why not i'll try that um now by the way stevens or stevenson or whatever he is later on will be instrumental in getting sunny early parole as well oh instrumental in this because he is the the priest his case word carries a lot of weight back in this because he is the priest. His word carries a lot of weight back then in this place. So Sonny says, quote, he was the one who started me fighting.

That's that. Now, Father Stevens or Stevenson, he said, I was the Catholic chaplain at Jeff City. That's the prison. And the athletic director, too. They used to wish a lot of those jobs on chaplains. Sonny was just a big, ignorant, pretty nice kid. A big, that's a good title for this episode,

a big, ignorant, pretty nice kid. He wasn't smart-alecky, but he got in little scrapes. I think he didn't take a lot of shit is what it was,

Sonny. He then goes on to say, quote, I tried to teach him the alphabet, not to read the alphabet wow which is the beginning of starting to read that's you know oh that's so far before that's when you're three you're telling him a b like that's that's tough um he said but but it was hard to impress upon him the importance

of it he just didn't care. Had no interest in reading. He said he told him, surely you'll want to read the papers about yourself when you're a famous boxer. He said, I'd tell him, but he wasn't too faithful. He just didn't like talking much, he said. He said, I ran him two winters in our boxing program, and he wound up being inmate champ. Unbelievable. Inmate champ. Unbelievable. Inmate champ, illiterate. Yeah, he doesn't even know letters.

Never mind illiterate. Fuck illiterate. What is that? Illiterate. Illiterate, I think, is what that is. It's not even illiterate. That's illiterate. That's way worse.

Not even close. Not even close to reading. He is years away from reading at this point, right? He's got to be. If you're a full-grown adult, somewhere between 23 and 36 years old and you don't understand. He's at minimum preschool and kindergarten away from reading. Holy fuck. So when he became eligible for parole, Father Stevens called on a journalist that he knew at the Globe Democrat to inquire, how can Sonny be a fighter on the outside? Can you help me get him into that on the outside?

So this guy, though, Bob Burns, he said he was a little leery of penitentiary phenoms. You know, you beat up guys in prison but these guys on the outside have been training for 10 years and you know they're not just getting into this to burn some energy off right there's a difference between a guy that can take a punch and a guy that can deliver a punch exactly exactly so he said why don't you check out this guy monroe harrison who's the guy who bought sunny the chicken dinner okay um he is a former boxer harrison and a sparring partner of joe lewis oh so yeah this the champ yeah fucking joe lewis bad motherfucker brown bomber so he he sent this guy uh harrison went to the prison to take a look at liston and

see if he was worth a shit or not taylor swift is soaring high her every move captured in the news cycle and devoured by her devoted fans. She's broken billboard records and made Grammys history, not to mention becoming a billionaire in the process. But along the way, Taylor has had to wage war, first by taking on a very powerful, very famous manager, Scooter Braun, and then by going up against the biggest live events company, Ticketmaster. Hi, I'm David Brown, the host of Wondery's show Business Wars. We go deep into some of the biggest corporate rivalries of all time. And in our latest season, Taylor Swift will shake up not only the music business,

but Hollywood and the NFL. Follow Business Wars wherever you get your podcasts. You can listen ad-free on the Amazon Music or Wondery app. So Harrison, not only in addition to his boxing, obvious boxing acumen, he's also the custodian of a public school. So he's the school janitor as well. Why is that always? I don't know. You don't want to make fun of that school janitor, though.

No. He will beat your ass. That guy can take a punt. Yeah. He will beat your ass. He's just a punt. Yeah. He will beat your ass. He's just a poor man. He made no money fighting. He's just a guy who works as a janitor at the school.

And he asked the publisher of the St. Louis Argus, which was a black weekly newspaper. He said, would you come with me? And if it's good, you could do a story on some prison guy that's doing really well. And Harrison also explains, there's another reason why he asked him to go, quote, Frank had a car. He didn't even have a car. Harrison didn't have a car to go to the prison to check him out.

So he's like, he had a car. So I was like, that could, I could, two birds here. You know what I mean? You can get there and this. Yeah. So they took them there. They went and they took a heavyweight named Thurman Wilson with them as well to spar with Tyson. With Liston.

A real fighter. You know what I'm saying? A real boxer. So Mitchell here, the reporter, he says, quote, Wilson asked me, how many rounds? Many as you want, I said. We don't want to show the boy up, is what they said. Porter, he says, quote, Wilson asked me, how many rounds? Many as you want, I said. We don't want to show the boy up, is what they said. Like, we don't want to embarrass him.

At the end of four rounds, Thurman Wilson told me, quote, better get me out of this ring. He's going to kill me. Oh, my. He's like, I don't want to fight with this guy. A real boxer said, I got to get out. He said, get me out of here. This guy's going to kill me. Jesus Christ, he's dropping bombs on me so that was a lot so that made harrison go god damn maybe this guy can fight um yeah uh so later on though the boxing you could say saved sunny liston but at the same time

someone will say something someone he knows very well will say something interesting later on he'll say quote boxing has done nothing for sunny liston but introduced him to a lot of high class hoods. Oh, no. Back then, especially if you were a boxer, especially back then, you could really get in with some bad people. I mean, it was a mob run thing. So, I mean, you could be in with gangsters like that. You could be in with gangsters like that. People that do bad things oftentimes love to have somebody around that is perfectly capable of doling out a beating. And if you've got a guy that's a fucking, he's a real boxer, that's the guy you want.

Look at Rocky. What is Rocky doing in the movie Rocky? His living is collecting for a fucking, for a bookie. I mean, that's what he's doing. His living is collecting for a bookie. I mean, that's what he's doing. So now he is paroled on October 31st, 1952. So he does two and a half years almost, a little shy of two and a half.

And he's released into the custody of that reporter of Harrison and of Father Stevenson. You're all responsible for him. Keep track of this very grown adult. Normally it's one person, but he's kind of a menace. We're going to assign three, including a priest, to him. Hey, Father. Man of the clock. You make sure he boxes.

You keep an eye on the crime stuff. Father, we need a few novenas from you at night because this fucking guy, he's going to need prayers. Come on. You instilling him the commandments. that one about murder is very important jesus fucking christ so um he said that things went smoothly for a while um burn said i recommended monroe harrison because this is a man sonny can lean on monroe is an automatic uncle as one of these older guys who's going to give him good advice and shit like that Harrison the automatic uncle he said quote

Sonny's the type of person that needs understanding okay he's interesting he's vicious all the way you youth all his youth he needs someone to help him control his emotion he must be kept busy until all that youth. He needs someone to help him control his emotion.

He must be kept busy until all that youth and strength leaves him like it leaves all of us. We're going to treat him like a puppy? I'm sure he's chewing the couch now, but give him a few years. He's going to be so loyal. He's going to be the best now. That's what I mean. Those chewed shoes are going to be worth it later on when he's sitting next to you in front of the fireplace

and you're petting his head. You know what I mean? You're walking through the woods and he's right next to you. He's right next to you, not going anywhere. So, yeah, we were talking about that with Oscar, with our dog here. He's kind of a pain in the ass now, but he's going to be a great dog, though, soon. That's a cowboy. That's such a good dog.

He's getting great, though. He really is. Vaughn's going the opposite way where he's now an old man. Yeah, that's where my other two are. Took him to a dog park and he bit a dog. Oh, no. Yeah, and then got him in the car. I made him ride in the back because he doesn't get to ride up front when he's a shit.

And he just rolled down the window on his own, hit the button, stuck his face out the window and slobbered. Dog's a straight gangster. Couldn't care less. Zero remorse. Fuck that dog. So they always say, Frankie will do shit like that. When I go to grab her, as soon as I grab her collar to start walking her, she stops what she's doing and just walks slightly slower than me like prisoners do. That's the prisoner thing.

When they take a prisoner and jack him up when he's in a fight, they'll stop completely what they're doing and walk just a half a step slower than the guard that's what she does with a complete thousand yard stare on her face while she's doing it i'm like you little fucking gangster bitch you're a prison you're like a fucking prisoner she's like you and i know it a maximum security prisoner when she went over and body slammed that dog across the street there that pitbull across the street where she just fucking flipped him on his back and was like ah i'm on your throat now soon as we grabbed her she was like yep walking away fuck that had to tell that motherfucker what's up yeah that's right see you at fucking see you at rec time bitch like she was what is wrong with you it gets you when you're doing your push-ups later.

Yeah, that's right. And you're vulnerable on the pull-up bar. Watch your back. Oh, man. Yeah, yeah, that pull-up bar. So this Monroe, I love the way he talks, by the way. I'm going to read that over. Sonny's the type of person that needs understanding.

He's vicious all the way. Youth, all his youth. He needs someone to help him control his emotion. He must be kept busy until all that youth and strength leaves him like it leaves all of us. Right now, he's like the leopard. Okay? So he's a child, now he's a leopard? It's a fast evolution.

Wow, that's impressive. That animal out there in the jungle. Leap at an animal. Kill it, but he don't need to. Yeah, right now he's like the leopard. That animal out there in the jungle, leap on an animal, kill it, but he don't need to. He's saying he's hunting, but he doesn't need to be hunting. He needs to chill the fuck out. He doesn't need to be a leopard and attack. He said, I understood Sonny's language, befriended him.

I fathered him around. That sounds weird. Yeah. You mean fathered, right? Fathered him around. He needs training. He needs love. The right people have to take an interest in the boy and treat him like a member of the family.

You've got to talk to him about what he talks about. Otherwise, he's got no conversation. Yeah. When you go with him to a function don't leave him out there in the fourth dimension with all those diplomats you got yeah he doesn't know he is from a fucking farm right he showed up yeah he's a fish out of water yeah everywhere yeah he showed up in the city thinking he could just say do you know where this lady lives and they point him to her house like he doesn't know things.

Guy leaning against the wall drinking wine. Yeah. You know where she's at? And if you show him the letter R and ask him what it is, he won't know. That's the other thing. He'll go, I don't know. Make this sound. I don't know what that is.

So, yeah, you're going're gonna have to you know but he's so he's kind of like he's like an uneducated teenage boy where you got to keep batting him back in bounds because and talk to them about their interests otherwise because teenage boys fuck man you if you don't talk to them about what they like, they won't talk to you at all. Five years. Yeah. You go five years without having a conversation if you don't bring up a video game. Right. Whatever sport they like, whatever.

You got to talk to them about what they like. It's how it is. And he's realizing that with this guy, with Sonny. So he says, yeah, don't leave him out there in the fourth dimension with all those diplomats. Then Bob Burns talks about Sonny when he got out of prison. And Bob Burns, that reporter, he said, quote, Sonny was frightened, lost in the big city. After he worked out, there was nothing to do but listen to the radio.

Monroe taught him to play checkers and talk boxing with him. Every once in a while, Monroe would haul Sonny down to the office. I assume the newspaper office. And he'd quote, tell Bob you've been a good boy, he'd tell Sonny. You've been a good boy, I'd ask? Yes, Mr. Bob. Quote, Sonny's not bright, but I've never known him to be mean. So they treat him like a child who has brain damage.

Yeah. Already. Lenny. Yeah, they treat him like Len child who has brain damage already. Yeah, he's got Lenny. Yeah, they treat him like Lenny, though. You've been a good boy? And he goes, yes, Mr. Bob. And they take him to, it's the weirdest shit. Yeah, and there is no racial component here. Everyone here is black that we're talking about.

So, yeah, yeah, there's no Bob Burns works for the black newspaper. He's a black reporter. So, yeah, he said that's right away i read that i was like e that's kind of right what's happening yeah but no no it's fine but he's still a man in his 20s so to ask if you've been a good boy i'd be like motherfucker i'm 25 to 32 bitch 25 to 32 father stevenson taught me how to box it's on unbelievable unreal so sonny's not that bright sonny's not bright but i've never known him to be mean he's still a child easily misled easily misguided i've never known sonny to go out looking for trouble well you didn't know him before to say

you didn't know when he would literally go out looking for anyone who had a nickel on them to shake them down. You just met him. You just met him. Yeah. Holy fuck. So he has a brief amateur career that we'll talk very briefly about an hour and 10 minutes into this when he's first discussing boxing here. It was a quick amateur career because he had to make money. Yeah. They knew that if you don't get Sonny in the ring making money, gonna go make money somewhere else right like that's how it's gonna work so

he captures the chicago golden gloves tournament of champions he wins the title there wow which is pretty damn good that's march 6th 1953 so he hasn't even been out of prison for six months right and he's training and doing that and he won that in that tournament he beat 1952 olympic heavyweight champion ed sanders is that right yes so he beat an olympic heavyweight in that so that's that's serious he's pretty goddamn good um he also um he had a little problem here as well uh as we'll we'll talk about here. He in 1953, he was arrested for an investigation of what is this here? Some kind of he was only held for a day. He was held for a day and released on some investigation during this. beat the New York Golden Gloves champion, or New York Golden Gloves Tournament of Champions

winner Julius Griffin to capture the Intercity Golden Gloves Championship, which is between Chicago and New York, and he won it. Liston was knocked down in the first round but came back and controlled the next two rounds and

beat the shit out of the guy essentially here. He competed in the 1953 U.S. National Championships at the Boston Garden, and he beat Lou Graff in the second round but then lost in the quarterfinals in that here to a guy named Jimmy McCarter, who he later hires a sparring partner for a long time. So June 23, 1953, a team of 10 recent st louis gold gloves champions of all weight classes with list in there as well as uh the heavyweight was gathered to represent the u.s in an international golden gloves competition usa versus western europe which

is pretty cool this is at the keel auditorium St. Louis, where they used to do wrestling all the time. Liston knocked out Herman Schreibauer of West Germany in the first round. Not bad. Previously, Schreibauer, the month before, had won a bronze medal in the European Championships. So he's a good boxer. So he's a good boxer, yeah. At the time, the head coach of the St. Louis Golden Gloves team,

a guy named Tony Anderson, said Liston was the strongest fighter he'd ever seen. Is that right? Yeah. So pretty impressive here. Here's just a few of his fights I'll give you here because they span less than a year. Oh, this is at the end anyway, yeah. He beats a guy by points named Bo Willis. His first three are points, then TKO, a couple more with points.

This is amateur. There's headgear on and shit here. So a lot of points wins. He only loses the one fight that I can see against Jimmy McCarter there at Boston Garden. So then he signs a contract in September 1953 to fight pro. He wants to fight pro. So he's been out of jail less than a year. He's ready to fight pro. He wants to fight pro. So he's been out of jail less than a year.

He's ready to fight pro. He's somewhere between 20 and 26. Yeah. But his fundamentals are there. He knows what he's doing. Yeah, he's just really tough, too. He's got a really tough jaw, not an easy guy to knock out, and his punch, he hits like a fucking horse. I mean, he just hits like a bastard.

So he signs a contract in september 53 and he told the uh his manager quote whatever you tell me to do i'll do okay which is nice um but people didn't want you need a backer when you're a boxer yeah to train all day and then get the proper amount of food and rest it's expensive and you don't have time to work a regular job if you're going to be a serious contender yeah so it's really difficult to do so you need people to put money up to you know so you can live and the people who wanted to put the money up for him because he's a guy who you know he's in prison he can't read not a lot of legitimate people really want to take a chance on him but underworld figures love this shit mob guys things like that they love this type of shit yeah they got a guy yeah so uh by the way while he's doing this they said yeah yeah we'll take

care of you can train and all that but every once in a while maybe you uh you know we have a little job for you to do you know and he did he worked like Rocky. He worked around as a fucking collections guy, an intimidator. You don't pay up. St. Louis? Yeah, you don't pay up. He's going to come fucking visit you. And I was like, oh, I don't want Sonny Liston to beat the shit out of me. So, yeah, I'll pay up.

So, yeah, he was very much this was good for him in the beginning of his career because also these guys can get you good fights. They know all the promoters. They are the promoters. All that kind of shit. So his pro debut, finally, September the 9th, 1953 against a guy

named Don Smith. Sounds very generic here. Comes in at 3-1. Finishes his career at 7-4-1. So not a great fighter here. This is in St. Louis, and this fight goes 33 seconds. Jesus.

Sonny whoops his fucking ass, and the ref stops the fight. Just explodes the man. Yeah, stops the fight, knocked him out in the first round. Yeah, he was at this point, he's 6'1", he's over 200 pounds. His reach is incredible. He's got a sick reach. I looked

at the tail of the tape between him and Ali. Ali's got a 79 inch reach, which is really good. 84 for Liston. Liston's got an 84 inch reach? He's 6'1 and has an 84 inch reach. His arms are so

fucking long. That's amazing for basketball and boxing. How big is that? It's long so fucking long. That's amazing for basketball and boxing. How big is that? It's long, very long. It's a long arm. His arm is long. He's supposed to be able to reach.

Wingspan is the same height. He's bigger. Oh, by far. In basketball, they get excited if you're more than two or three inches wider in wingspan than tall. They love that. They're like, holy shit tall they love that they're like holy shit they love that shit all the great a lot of the great players have that um in boxing 84 inches is just a silly reach for a guy six foot one that's so much bigger than he is tall it's so much bigger yeah it's it's really fucking silly his fists also measured 15 inches around which was the largest of any

heavyweight champion of all time. It's like a small basketball. When you see his hands, you go, holy shit. They just look like cinder blocks on the fucking end of his wrist. Like the size of a WNBA ball. It's so big, Jimmy. His fists are so fucking huge. How did he get that in a glove?

Big old glove with those long-ass arms. He's made for boxing. He sure is. He's made for it. Sports Illustrated writer Mort Sharnick, he said that Liston's hands, quote, looked like cannonballs when he made them into fists. And Liston had a noticeably more muscular left arm. Huh.

It was more, I don't know if that was his jerking hand or what he had going on for obvious reasons. Noticeably. Noticeably. I tug like crazy with my right. It's not noticeable. Not noticeable. Yeah, you know it's stronger. Yeah.

You know the strength you have there. Yeah, basically because that's the one that makes me finish, so I know. More of a grip strength, though. It's different from bicep strength. That's unbelievable. He said he had a really good jab, a really powerful left hook, and everybody thought he was left-handed,

even though he fought orthodox right-handed. They all thought he was left-handed because he could kick some ass with that left arm, left hook and all that shit, but he wasn't. He was right-handed. Maybe he just didn't know. I don't know i don't know everybody else doing it with their right my mother wasn't sure what hand i was i just used both and sometimes i don't know what's going on so september uh a week later eight days later september 17th 1953 he fights this is fucking amazing a guy named ponce de leon stop it aka ponce de leon taylor his man's name is ponce de leon taylor that's insane that is fucking crazier than not knowing when your birthday is at least his parents didn't name him ponce delion liston you know like i'm sorry but this is worse

that's pretty incredible oh man uh ponce is 15 21 and 4 coming into this fight and he'll never win another fight he's 15 30 and 4 in his career to end it so he just never happens again for ponce he retired the old sailor well 10 fights later yeah he this this goes all four rounds he wins on points i pons is a fucking journeyman apparently yeah pons knows how to hang on for dear life so two and oh he then here's a series of fights quick he fights a guy named benny thomas uh these are all in st louis and one's in detroit later on st louis he beats him uh benny thomas in six rounds by split decision, so he almost loses the fight right away here.

Martin Lee, he fights in St. Louis, knocks him out in the sixth round. This is out of six rounds. Stanley Howlett, he beats by points in six rounds. Then they go up to eight rounds. In Detroit, he fights Johnny Summerlin, and he goes all eight rounds and wins a unanimous decision. And then he goes all eight rounds with Summerlin again. Jesus.

Like a month and a half later and gets a split decision win. Uh-huh. So he's doing well. He's 7-0. Fighting like crazy. Lots of rounds, too. Lots of rounds. And it doesn't even matter because he's not using that brain for the alphabets.

Who cares? No, he doesn't give a shit. And he's got a strong chin, too. Lots of rounds. And it doesn't even matter because he's not using that brain for the alphabets. Who cares? No, he doesn't give a shit. And he's got a strong chin, too. I mean, he's not a guy that's easily knocked out Sonny Liston here. So he did very well. The Summerland, I guess, was really good. He was 18-1 coming into the fight. So he was really good.

And both of them were in Summerlin's hometown of detroit too so he went to someone's which is hard to win in someone's hometown like that so september 7th 1954 he's fighting here and uh he fights marty the mid uh marty the michigan bomber mitch uh marshall not mitchell marshall he's 19 and 6 coming into this fight, 19, six and two. And, um, he's called in an article, an awkward journeyman, which are guys. You don't like to fight if you're an experience because a guy like that is not used. You're not used to seeing it and he can fuck you up. You know, um, he Liston was laughing at the guy, how the guy did things in the ring. Okay.

It was one of them. Yeah. Yeah. He was laughing at him and shit. While he was laughing, Marshall socked him with a right hand and broke his jaw. Oh! Yeah. You don't talk so much, sir. That's right.

So Liston ended up going the whole distance with a broken jaw and loses a split decision. Liston does, because he had a broken jaw the whole time. Learned a lesson. Exactly. That's the thing. Bob Burns, who was a sports writer again, he said, quote, I'm sort of standing there wondering what this fellow is going to do next, and all of a sudden he jumps up and down, lets out a whoop like a wild man,

and I get to laughing at him. Talking about the other guy. The guy would do crazy shit in the ring. He said, quote, I had my mouth wide open laughing this is uh sunny when he whomped me right on the jaw it didn't hurt much but i couldn't close my mouth that happened about the third or fourth round and i had to fight with fight him with my mouth open the rest of the way after a while it got to hurting pretty bad four more rounds of fighting a heavyweight fighter with a broken jaw and your mouth hanging open that sounds awful so

that's he's seven and one now here um this is when he gets a co-manager all right around this time a guy named frank mitchell now frank mitchell and monroe harrison are going to be doing that for his first about 14 fights. But after the broken jaw, this is the time right around now when Harrison, his wife, gets very ill. And he can't do this anymore. He has to sell his part of Sonny's contract. He sells it for $ hundred dollars by the way oh that is like a terrible deal yeah what a bad deal man but it was right after his first loss and all that so it seemed like a better deal so then this left sunny in the sole custody i guess

you could say of frank mitchell who uh here's what a st louis police officer called him quote an unwholesome influence on sonny unwholesome uh mitchell had been arrested 26 times although never convicted of anything huh what does that tell you he's got some friends he's got some friends he's got a couple of bucks to pay off jurors and shit that's what that tells me um and he's got a lot of connections yeah and the majority of his arrests were for suspicion of gambling which is certainly he's a fucking he's a gangster you know whatever that's allegedly so mitchell um would constantly say he's being persecuted all the time they're persecuting me and all that kind of shit the kifavar committee uh had the opportunity there to call him in and he could set the record straight well they're

having hearings tell us why you're not you know why this is all untrue he took the fifth you have the opportunity to clear it up friend apparently there's not a lot to clear he's he said quote not that i couldn't answer that's what he said oh we know you could answer since you didn't want to it was that going back there three four five years i might not have been able to answer accurately i didn't want to subject myself to perjury so he said they're asking stuff from three four years ago i you know i don't know what's going on here i don't want to fuck something up for me that's why you say to the best of my recollection right that says if i'm wrong who knows this is my memory yeah this is how i remember it you do that um so he said uh this is uh nanny turner who is the

president and treasurer of the argus, the newspaper, and Mitchell's mother. Oh. She said this is about her son Frank Mitchell. Quote, poor Frank took this ignorant boy out of the pen and made something out of him. That's interesting. Poor Frank. Poor Frank. So he said, I tell Frank sometimes maybe God isn't pleased with his attitude, letting him be persecuted.

So she said, sometimes maybe it's not your fault. Maybe you're a dickhead and people do that for that reason. Now, Mitchell, he disagrees. He said, quote, they've raked me over the coals, sent me through the ringer, given me the devil. I'm supposed to be a front man with the hoodlums. So there you go. That's his thing here. That his defense huh yes um he was i guess uh he hung out with uh john vitale who was arrested 58 times hung out with frankie frankie carbo blinky palmero and uh blinky a lot of guys named Blinky doing real well in life with

straight jobs. Blinky Palmero over here. You're limited to running like a gambling organization if your name is Blinky Palmero, I feel like. You're not going to get away with anything like that here. Now, Blinky, and also a

guy named James D. Norris, they were all involved in the management of Liston. Carbo and Frankie Carbo and Blinky Palmero were facing sentences of 80 and 125 years for their illegal activities and boxing in the state of California as well. So Mitchell says, I barely knew these guys. I met Vitaly by chance on the golf course. By chance. He said, quote, it was not a prearranged thing. You see, there were twosomes, he said.

The starter tuned Vitaly's twosome and my twosome in. I couldn't afford to discriminate on a public golf course. What were you going to do? You know, so you play with a gangster then you go into business with him that's what most people do you play with a gangster and the gangster goes well my aren't you big i could use you no that's the manager saying he got hooked up business-wise with him oh okay that's mitchell saying i only knew this guy and got in business with him out of pure coincidence that i met him on a golf course. I know.

Start investing with him. Now, Liston and Mitchell both claim that Mitchell worked for Vitale in construction, which we know isn't true. He wasn't working construction at this point at all, but it's a no-show job, more than likely. That's what they do. So Liston once said, quote, More than likely. That's what they do.

So Liston once said, quote, I consider John Vitale a good friend whom I've worked for about one year after I was introduced to him by my manager, Frank Mitchell. So he said during this time, John Vitale introduced me to Barney, who is Barney Baker, who's like a labor goon he's listed as here. That's his main chyron. Labor goon, who's been arrested five times, and Millie Allen, who is Vitaly's girl. In between rounds at my fights, I would wave and smile at Millie and John in the crowd. I made long-distance collect phone

calls to John to find out how things were at home. You're hanging out with a gangster. That's what you do. He said, quote, he said I could call him collect at this time. When John quit his business, he introduced me to Raymond Sarkis, and I worked for Raymond for about one and a half years driving him around in his car. He was a good friend. Yeah, you're muscle. That's a according to the testimony before the Kiffauver committee sergeant joseph moose

sergeant moose sergeant sergeant moose smells like that moose that's moose sergeant moose m-o-o-s-e fucking uh m-a-r-t-y m-o-o-s-e he uh the st louis police, he said, quote, it's been reported that Liston's main function for Vitale was to keep the Negro laborers in line. Okay. So he would send them down to picket lines with threats. He whooped a few laborers out in the country, or out in the county, one St. Louis police guy said, quote, he didn't need to whoop many, just stared at them. I don't think there were any arrests too scared nobody would say shit liston said that's crazy quote all i did for sarkis was to drive him in his car and help him around the house mostly i drive his car a white cadillac

with air conditioning and a telephone in the like 1960 i'm sure that you were not with anybody that was dangerous. Yeah. There's, like, this guy and the presidential limo had telephones in them in 1960. Are you kidding me? And the guy that invented the telephone for the limo. Yeah, that guy has one in his car. His doesn't work real well, though. It's a prototype.

This guy's got the good one. He said, and cops would see me in the summertime driving along, nice and cool with the windows up and the cold air pouring in on me, and they'd be out there sweating. I know they was jealous, and they'd even the score by pulling me in. That's what he said. He said, they'd see me in my air-conditioned car and arrest me for that. Now, Captain John Doherty, who was in command of the, quote, Hoodlum Squad. What? I want a TV show set in the 50s called John Doherty, Hoodlum Squad.

Just Hoodlum Squad would be amazing. Oh, man. He said, we wanted to break up Liston's associations with hoodlums, is why they kept arresting him. Because they said they were trying to help him, man. He said, we wanted to break up Liston's associations with hoodlums is why they kept arresting him. Because they said they were trying to help him, obviously. Not an easy arrest. You can't succeed unless you get out of that. Yeah. He said, every time we could jump Liston up, find him, we did.

We wouldn't tolerate beating any citizens up, robbing them, which he was known for. I must have talked to Liston on 20 occasions. Where you come from? I don't know. Where you going? I don't know. We tried to treat him pretty good. He would never answer shit.

Where are you going? I don't know. Where were you before this? I don't know. I don't remember. I don't know is wild. I told him he had great potentialities. You could do well.

Fascinating word. Wow, that's a lot. He put a lot of extra syllables on there. You have a lot of potential, kid. That's fine. But if you're going to associate with Vitaly and them other hoods, I say you can't make a decent living. He never accepted my advice. He's dumb.

He's got a vicious temper. He never accepted my advice. He's dumb. He's got a vicious temper. He's ill-advised on many occasions. He shakes hands with police characters. Gangsters. So here's Lieutenant Frank Burns. He said, quote, when you start to take him in, he always hesitates. You get the opinion he's gauging his chances, standing there wondering whether he'll go along quietly or not. He doesn't react.

He just stands there. He's like that in the ring. It's almost like society, as you grow and age and you go through the motions of life, teaches you how you're going to behave throughout the rest of your life. And it's almost like the more poor and the more difficult you have it coming up, you may treat situations like that as you grow up too. Absolutely. And I think on top of all of that and all of these factors, both scientific, medical, sociological, all of these factors,

he's also, I think, a bit stupid also. He can't read, James. I think you have to factor in the fact that I think his dad hit him a lot when he was a kid, and I don't know what kind of brain damage he had coming into this whole thing. I don't think he's very bright. There's no one that associates with him. And I mean people who love him say he's not that bright. He's not a real smart guy.

He doesn't know how to eat a chicken, James. Yeah. I mean, that's experience, i mean that's experience though that's experience he's just not real good at adding yeah i just mean basic life skills yeah this what he does makes a lot of sense too the cops come up to him and they say shit and rather than him put his hands behind his back or do anything he just stands there it's like well come cuff me if you fucking think you can motherfucker and maybe you'll be too scared to and let me go is his other thing. So, you know, it's an interesting strategy.

This cop said, when I stopped him once on 12th Street, he doubled up his fists. This is Detective Bob Green. He said, I pulled my gun and stood back. That's how scary this man is. That's how big those hands are yeah he said quote you better i said you better unroll those fists my man i told him why did i stop him just to find out where he was going that seems yeah that's what they did all the time every time they saw me scared that's what i mean leave him alone but they said every time they see him they'd stop him to see what he was up to he said uh mitchell his his unwholesome character manager he said

quote once you have a record as an ex-con they pick on you sonny has the mind of a 12 year old child oh that's what a lot of people say he's got the mind of a child everybody says that that's so sad it's instant gratification it's not thinking to the next step it's i think he has brain i think he was hit a lot in the head as a kid i think he has brain damage i really do right yeah and then he gets hit in the head a lot more so right um yeah he said he has the mind of a 12 year old child he has no finesse tact whatsoever he doesn't realize that he has to keep his name out of the paper. He's kind of mean, too. He hates policemen, and they hate him.

My kind of guy. Jesus. So he has no tact or finesse. He's dumb as a child, and he's mean also. I think, I bet he doesn't hate police. I'll bet he doesn't trust them, and that's based on experience.

Well, also, yeah, I think by now that's turned into when you arrest me, I go to jail and I hate that. So I hate you. I don't like that at all. Yeah. He said Sonny got locked up once with one of those buzzer things in his hands. Shook hands with a policeman with it. He's playing practical jokes on the cops. That seems fun.

Cost him $700 in a fine fine for like assault or something yeah they should they charge him with like assault that's what i mean that's ridiculous but he wouldn't have the sense to be a goon he said he just doesn't liston said the cops just kept grabbing me up picking me up holding me overnight if nobody came down to make a squawk to get me out, they keep me. And then they finally let me go. They just hang on to him for a while. He said, next day, back in. He let him go. And they, yeah, I said what they wanted. I said what they wanted me to say because who wanted to sleep on that cold steel all night? They never told me anything. They just picked me up and put me in the can and questioned me the captain captain doherty told me to my face if i wanted

to stay alive for me to leave st louis so he said if you don't they're gonna find you in an alley oh my god yeah not not great here um now the assistant chief of police j Chapman, he said, quote, Doherty got a bum rap on that. I think that's the right rap. Well, no, no. You can't say that to a man. Well, he's not saying that it wasn't said to a man. Oh. Quote, I'm the one that told him that.

He's not a dick, I am. He said he gets a bum rap, not because it didn't happen, not because it was misquoted or out of context. I'm the one that told him I'd kill him and put him in an alley, not him. He's not a piece of shit. He's a great guy. I am a huge piece of shit. Me. I'm the one.

Assistant Chief of Police, James Chapman. Piece of shit right here. He said, as far as I'm concerned, liston's a big 18 carat phony wow a big 18 carat phony it seems phoniness isn't worth murdering someone and putting them in an alley for you'd have to menace to society you could say okay well i'm starting to understand what you're talking about phony tax taxpayer finance murder you can't do that crazy so sunny says this quote the only thing i tried to do is work and make an honest living i promised father stevenson i would never meet him back up there in jail once i was picked up and this one cop who had boxed some

told the captain he wanted to take me downstairs and work me over with his fists i would not do that if i'm you sir no he just begged the captain for a chance to hammer me so i said yeah captain why don't you let him take me downstairs let's go cap let's go cat but i guess the captain knew better he wouldn't stand for it and all and i don't know how you know regular this goes with police beatings but like in the homicide book david simon says the one rule that the homicide cops had and all the cops they would beat a suspect's ass for certain things and if they shot a cop or whatever the fuck they're i don't know their twisted sense of i don't know whatever they're doing over there but he said

that the one thing was you don't beat a guy in cuffs right because you, you uncuff them, and then you get them to take a swing on you, and then you beat the shit out of them is the way they do it. So this is you want to uncuff me and take me in the basement, and it's fair. I'm in. I think you're going to be not satisfied with the results of this. What do you think? So he said that the captain knew better he wouldn't stand for it. So they said that it was James Reddick is who they were saying that probably was.

He was a one-time Golden Gloves champion. There's a big difference between that and what he's done. And he hated Sonny Liston a lot. Reddick, who was the sergeant who wanted to fight him said quote he's a bad man he hangs out with a bunch of dogs i'd like to show him how bad he is if he ever crossed me i'd baptize his ass that is awesome that's an awesome that's somebody's cool old black grandfather right there. Because he just said, you cross me, I'll baptize your ass. Grandpa's going to fuck us up. You believe a man who says that.

But I don't think he's going to baptize. Sonny, no. No, it's not going to happen, sir. You may think so. Yeah, because Sonny still boxes, and this guy's probably a few years older if he ever crossed me i'd baptize his ass he'd be like a coffee sieve they'd remember him all right every decoration day jesus he really wants to kick this guy's ass man that is wild create a holiday around this event yeah let's all have a parade to celebrate sunny whooped sunny liston's fucking

baptism his fist baptism holy shit so he said father charles disma clark uh who was a priest the founder of the dismus house in st louis he said something different he said quote about sunny quote he needs someone to show him how to live. He needs someone he can turn to. If he's supervised, he's all right. The penitentiary dulls minds. He said, you walk the same concrete, see the same bars, never make decisions.

These people don't mind getting in trouble again. They learn to trust people, but the wrong people. They panic very quickly. They rationalize their panic and become bad for the community, and they torment it. So he's saying, I should take care of him a little bit more. So, by the way, he's still a professional boxer in all of this mess. March 1st, 1955, he fights Neil Welch. Now, that is like the grape juice.

W-E-L-C-H. His nickname? Cornelius Walsh. What? I don't know. I don't know why. What the fuck is wrong with this guy? In the 50s, Cornelius Walsh must have mattered.

Walsh? Walsh. Walsh and Welch. It's too confusing. Walsh with an S-H. Not even Walsh or something. There's got to be a character somewhere that matters that's that name, right? I don't.

Some cartoon character from like newsreels at the end of fucking film. Like they show us like bombing Hitler's shit and then we cut to like the Cornelius Welsh who's a little dog. Cornelius Walsh is like a little dog. Yeah. What does Cornelius get into today? What did Cornelius do? Well, Cornelius is 13-9 like a little dog. What does Cornelius get into today? What did Cornelius do? Well, Cornelius is 13-9-1 coming into this fight.

He'll finish his career at 13-23-3. Oh, it went bad. It went real fucking bad. And this goes all eight rounds, and Sonny wins on points. So April 21, 1955 is the rematch with the guy who broke his jaw the michigan bomber here marty marshall um so uh this is uh a this goes six rounds and it's a tko for sunny this time marshall was down four times and uh down including a nine count at the end of the fifth round and then three times in round six

and it was a three fight you call it deal there three times in one round uh he's nine and one now sunny may 5th 1955 against emile bert brutko he has no vowels in his last name b-r-t- he has an o at the end but it's brutko there's no that's that's his name i don't understand it emil yeah so uh emil is 15 and 1 coming into the fight though it's a big fight and uh he knocks him out in the looks like the sixth round. So that's a pretty easy one there for him. 10-1 now for Sonny. He next fights Calvin Butler, who is 5-2 coming in. And Calvin will have a 14-21 career. That seems pointless.

And this fight's a TKO in the second round for Sonny. 11-1 for old Sonny here. September 13, 1955, Johnny Gray. And it says his nickname is John. So that's not much of a nickname there. The thing about nicknames is that it sets you apart. Well, that would be like if you said, my name is Jimmy, my nickname is Jim. Okay. That's short for that all right sure

why not that'll work uh so this is a sixth round tko again for sunny next up he fights uh larry watson who is 39 and 24 coming into this fight but it's right at the end of his career this is a second to last fight uh but this is a fourth round tko for larry or for not for larry for coming into this fight. But it's right at the end of his career. This is his second-to-last fight. But this is a fourth-round TKO for Larry. Not for Larry, for Sonny. Sonny is 13-1 now. Next up, third match, March 6, 1956. The rubber match here with the Michigan Bomber,

Marty Marshall here. What's happening? This is a decision. It goes all 10, but it's a beating. Marshall was a last minute substitute. He lost every round but the first round, Marshall, on all the judges' cards. So that's not great. This is from the Pittsburgh Post-Gazette.

Liston apparently planned to coast through the bout. Referee McTiernan warned him twice to get in there and fight. He said that Liston had Marshall on the verge of a knockout on several occasions, but the other guy kind of found a way to get by, and he's a journeyman. That's what he did. But 14-1 for Sonny. Now, things are going great. He's winning fights.

You'd think he'd be concentrating on boxing. There's a little bit of a problem here. May the 5th, 1956. Okay. He is. His birthday. Possibly. When you're Sonny Liston, any day can be your birthday.

That's the great thing. That's what's wonderful. You can pick your own or you can just randomly go, it's my birthday today. And people go, for real? How old are you? And you go, I don't fucking know. And then you eat a cake, I guess. Beats the shit out of me. It's always Sonny Liston's birthday.

So he's got all these, he's hanging out with racketeers. Police are stopping him, breaking his balls on the street all the time. So on May 5th, 1956, Patrolman Thomas Mello of the St. Louis Police Department. And his name is spelled like Mello. I picture him coming up. Hey, man, how's it going? Hey. We just had a little bit of a murder.

I'm just asking around. How's it going? It's all good. You all right? You all right? Hey, you know what? Let's just kick back for a minute. You know what I mean?

Before we get into questioning, let's just kind of be cool, kind of take a beat. A lot of hey. Hey. You know, just like let it come to us. You know what I mean? Let it all come to us. You know, just kick back. So this is from the St. Louis Post-Dispatch, and the headline is, quote,

Boxer beat him, took revolver, policeman says. Oh. Maybe he should have been less mellow. Can't do that. Yes, this is after a parking ticket, mind you. He beat him and took his gun over a parking ticket? Over a parking ticket. Sonny is not having that shit.

Okay. Now, Sonny Liston here was held on an assault with a deadly weapon charge and the severe beating of a policeman in a fight Saturday night over a parking ticket. Liston, a former convict, it says in the paper, also was booked suspected of robbery after the revolver Patrolman Thomas Mello of Deer Street District was found at the home of a relative of Liston where he was arrested. He took it and took it. He took it and took it. He took it and kept it and just brought it to someone's house and was hanging out there with it. Wow. Patrolman Mello, who suffered a fractured right leg and head injuries. Jesus, he beat the shit out of this guy.

Said he placed a ticket for illegal parking on a taxi cab in the alley near Liston's home. Not even his car. not even his car not even his car not even responsible to pay this nope this was 4454 st louis avenue then liston and will patterson of 40 oh of patterson's of 4011 maff Avenue, who is the taxi cab driver, stepped down from the porch. Apparently it's a friend of his or relative of his who owns the taxi here. Stepped down from the porch where they had been talking and argued with

Mello. Yeah. Okay. The three men moved farther into the alley. Other persons on the porch at Liston's home heard Mello cry out, don't hurt me. That's not good. That is not good. The cops never begged me not to

hurt them. Don't hurt me is terrible to hear from an alley. Liston and Patterson drove away in the taxi cab after Liston knocked the police officer down and took his gun. Patrolman Mello, 41 years old, walked to a nearby hospital where he was given emergency treatment before being transferred to City Hospital where he was permitted to go home.

Then they give out his address. They don't give out police addresses anymore in the newspaper. Probably shouldn't do that. Mello named Liston as his assailant and police found the boxer and Patterson at a home on North 15th Street. You know, by the big yellow taxi sitting outside probably with a fucking flapping in the wind mellow service revolver which patterson said liston had shown him in the taxi cab was recovered in the house grabbed his gun man check that out liston who says he's 24 years old it says in the thing we don't know 24 this is 56 and now he's saying 32 okay

became violent at the police station and was restrained police reported he denied assaulting the officer he didn't how'd you get his gun then yeah you know it's really hard to get a cop's gun from them they won't voluntarily you can't talk it away from them usually they won't just give it to you they generally hang on to that thing yeah you gotta take it from them usually that's in my experience anyway you know you get a service revolver you've earned it you know it's yours so he denied it patterson was booked for assault um they he said i wasn't even involved pattersonson said, I was just trying to separate the two of them. I was

going, Sonny, no, don't hurt him. You know, please Sonny, don't hurt him. And fucking he's saying don't hurt me. And it's not me man. Now the patrolman says that's not true. They both beat the shit out of me and fucking rifled my pockets and everything else. So there are warrants against both of them.

I love how it says police records show that in 1950 liston was sentenced to for five years in the penitentiary for three holdups at that time at that time he gave his age as 22 years which was six fucking years ago right and now he's 24 so 28 i did. Maybe you think James letters escape him. You think numbers are going to hang on? Yeah, no, it's true. That's numbers. Don't have a chance. Really good point.

Police explain that the booking of assault with a deadly weapon is prescribed in the case of a professional fighter attacking a nonprofessional. Yeah, this is different, right? Hands. Yes. Hands are saying are weapons. Yeah, this is different, right? Hands. Yes, hands are saying are weapons.

A member of the Missouri Athletic Commission announced today that Liston would be suspended in Missouri and that the National Boxing Association would be notified of the action. Okay. Mellow here says, quote, I was making my relief corner and I passed an alley. A cab was parked in it with the lights on. From the entrance to the alley, I asked who the driver was. The driver came down and said his name was Patterson. I told him he could get a ticket, but I was going to let him move the cab. Then Liston came down and said, quote, you can't give him no ticket.

He said, real rough like, the hell I can't i said oh officer it's the other thing if you don't want tickets don't tell cops they can't do that because they'll go i'll find a way to write you a ticket don't worry like you can't they oh man but that reply is certainly baiting uh you know you know what i mean like there's a way to handle that a little better. Absolutely. He was definitely trying to give show. Hey, I don't care who you think you're tough. I'll give you a hell I can. Yeah, he was. He wanted to be king of his little castle, his little corner there.

He said, I took out my ticket book flashlight to get the city sticker off the cab. As I started over, Liston came over and gave me a bear hug from the front, lifted me clear off the ground. Jesus Christ. I didn't realize what was happening until he grabbed me, kind of caught me off guard. And then they got me in the dark part of the alley. Patterson says, Patterson says, get his gun. Oh, my God. The guy who said he was just breaking it up.

We struggled and all three of us fell. Liston got my gun out. Then Patterson said, quote, shoot that white son of a bitch. Oh, no. Liston releases me and points the gun at my head. I'm pushing up on the barrel with both hands to keep from looking down that muzzle. They were walking all over me. I hollered, don't shoot me.

Somebody heard, don't hurt me. Liston let up all of a sudden, Mello said. Hit me over the left eye with either his gun either the gun or a fist that's how hard he hits you don't even know if you got pistol whipped or not it took seven seven stitches oh my god fuck man my left leg was broken in the knee either from the fall or somebody stomping me. Then they run up the alley. That's the biggest man I ever. And he dot, dot, dot.

When he gave me that bear hug, I couldn't even get my toes on the ground. He appeared to be drinking. The fellows that arrested him had a little bit of trouble. What's his version, though? What does Sonny say? What did Sonny say happened? Sonny says, quote, I called a cab to come pick me up. I saw the cab pull up into the alleyway and i hurried out of my house meanwhile a cop came and told the cabbie he was going to give him a ticket i said how come you're going to give this cab a ticket

he's just doing his business then the cop turns to me and says oh boy he, he says, you're a smart N-word. Oh boy. Yeah. And when I say I'm not smart, which he means in both ways, he means a smart aleck and not very bright, he reaches for his gun and tries to take it out of his holster, but I take it away from him. Later, the cop said

I was drunk. Now, how could a drunk handle a sober cop trained to make arrests and to pull his gun? I never drink hard liquor anyway. The only time I drink beer is when my trainer makes me. A lot of times

after a hard fight, I get beat around the kidneys. My trainer makes me drink a beer to flush my kidneys out. Is that right? I don't think that's the standard operating procedure anymore, I'm going to say. It certainly works. You've got to pee so fast. What do you got, piss in your blood?

Drink like a six-pack, I'd say. That'll clear it right out. Jesus Christ. That's fucking crazy. Man. Now Mitchell, his manager, says, If if sunny called me right away i could have squelched i would have squelched it sunny doesn't drink that's an old excuse racial slurs it was black son of a bitch something like that that would aggravate him sunny cannot drink he gets

sick so he said the guy probably said some shit he didn't want him to say and that's what happened so sorry don't you know hey he's he's saying it was racist and they probably were yeah he said he said yeah sonny wasn't drunk and yeah he probably did attack the cop if the cop made a racial slur at him sonny would have fucking attacked him probably so probably everybody's telling both sides are telling the truth here probably i only drink strows to for the health benefits only for the health benefits i have a nice a nice cold schlitz just to just to clean my kidneys out that's all so he's charged with assault to kill really on this date yes um absolutely and he will be suspended from boxing on julyth, 1956 through 1957.

He's going to be suspended for more than a good chunk of time, about a year. How in the fuck? That's crazy. He's going to plead guilty to this charge of assault to kill and be sentenced to, you, sir, may fuck off nine months in a city workhouse. What? Which seems, they must have believed some of the stuff he said. You know what I mean?

That cop must have a fucking history. They justified seven, at least six of the stitches. Exactly, exactly. So he also is arrested on October 4th, 1956 as well on suspicion of larceny there. So he's had quite the bit of a fucking mess i am shocked that this man was a contender right and where he came from though you're shocked that he could even win 14 fights or be anywhere never mind be heavyweight champion later on it's pretty impressive you almost i mean where he comes if if no one in your house knows when you were born

yeah i gotta kind of feel a little bit bad for you, no matter how dumb your decisions are. I mean, I feel bad for all the people in this story, Jimmy. But not nearly as bad as I feel for Charles Liston, a driver at Allstate in Newfoundland, New Jersey. Charles Liston, president at something. It doesn't say what. It's in the Atlanta company of some guy. Metropolitan area. He might also be a client.

It's possible. He could be. Charles Liston, controller slash human resource manager at Solisbee's Equipment and Attachments, LLC. Charles Liston, screen printer in caterage colorado charles liston truck driver at ws bad cock corporation bad cock bad cock i like tom thompson georgia and finally charles liston gambling and casinos professional in london and that's i say that because that will make sense in a couple weeks in the later episodes. He loves him a casino.

And that's it. That's where we'll leave it today. That's where we'll leave part one. He's going nine months to a public house? A workhouse. City workhouse. So far, he's been arrested more times than he's had fights. So we've had that go on.

More charges than fights and um i feel like yeah the next chunk of this is going to get into some more crime stuff that's going to take a while so we'll start out our next episode hit the ground running with fucking crazy ass crime and then we'll try to go through the ali fight maybe in part two and then we might have a part three because his death is a big mystery and conspiracy theory and a big murder thing. So we're going to have to talk about that, too. It's wild shit. First two hours is nailing down his birthday. We have his birthday down.

He exists, and he's a boxer. We have that established. That's part one. Takes two hours. Takes two hours to deal with that. That's what I'm saying man that is crazy shit thank you sunny for the gift that you are the gift that keeps on giving this is why i've been saving this for seven years there's a reason why and this is why because holy shit 350 episodes

later we're doing this episode because it's crazy he makes mike tyson look boring he really does like compared to tyson this is so much better than the tyson episode by far and he's only a little bit less uh recognizable than tyson i think in boxing everybody knows who he is yeah if you know anything about boxing you know who sunny liston is i mean that's a huge name so there he is everybody stay tuned next week for part two where we dive like i said hit the ground running with prime it's just going to be hot and heavy so check that out and uh also while you're at it do us a favor give us a review it helps a lot whatever app you're listening on give us five stars say something nice i know some of you have done it already but some of you haven't get in there and

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All of your crime and sports and small town murder needs all of your merchandise tickets to live shows yes through the rest of the year next up may 5th in detroit may 6th in pittsburgh pittsburgh might be sold out by now i'm not sure but yeah you can check right there's a few let's get in there yeah get in there detroit and pittsburgh uh coming up may 5th and 6th and then pretty much after that everything is sold out until Chicago. It's going to be crazy. They're all sold out.

I mean, San Diego, Denver, Minneapolis, all of them sold out, sold out, sold out. Then August the 12th, we will be in Chicago. Yes. Get there. If you're up in Milwaukee or that in the Wisconsin area, we don't have a Milwaukee show this year. We don't have a Wisconsin show at all. We'd like to have one, but it didn't work out. So come to Chicago.

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It's going to be nuts. It's nuts. Just like a regular live show. All the pictures, all the crazy shit, except you're in your living room. Everything's going to look the same, just like you were sitting in a theater. But you're not. You're in your living room, and we're performing just for you. And we hope you love it.

People have loved them so far. And it's 420 so we're going to get Jimmy super stoned I have bought multiple different apparatus to fuck him up with and because it's funny because you know oh my god your eyes get big and scared when I

start doing weed stuff you're like how are you doing what are you putting in there oh my god crumble to no more hash also shit and then we're going to tell What are you putting in there? Oh, my God. Crumble 2? No more. Hash also? Shit. And then we're going to tell Jimmy a murder story, and we're going to laugh and laugh and laugh. It's going to be so much fun. That's April 20th.

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back episodes of bonus shit to binge on. Then every other week you're going to get two new ones. We keep them coming. Set your watch to it, baby. For Crime and Sports this week, which of course you get, we're going to do personal ads again. It's one of our most popular things. It's so fun.

Try to do it about twice a year. And personal ads are coming. We cannot wait. And then for Small Town Murder, we're going to go back to another very popular series, our Serial Killer Childhood series, which are always fun. I see that T-shirt in the 90s that had uh bird jordan and magic as children with the jersey yes yes yes the big long jerseys down on their knees that's what i see that's what it is see btk and richard ramirez and ted bundy all oh walking with a too long of a rope over his shoulder dragging behind him because he's not

tall enough a clear mask up over the top yeah yeah you see that dommer's glasses are even bigger on his face they're even huger we should make that t-shirt that's a great t-shirt that is a great you know what we're making that t-shirt as babies serial killer childhoods we're going to talk about btk's childhood because he is gross and he's just a creep in his childhood. The way he describes things is so fucking creepy like everything else. You definitely want to hear that. Patreon.com slash crime and sports is where you get all that. And, of course, you get a shout out.

And, Jimmy, when do you get that shout out? Right goddamn now. get that shout out right goddamn now jimmy hit me with the names of the people who would never ever ever ever beat us over the head in an alley and take our guns even if well we wouldn't make racial slurs at them so tell you what just give me the names of some nice people that we like very much hit me with them right now this week's executive producers are jens christian kraus or yawns what is that yen's is it yen's yeah it's got a bitzberg i don't know thank you jen's and jen's and jen's we appreciate it shannon short raptor one happy birthday obviously that is from raptor two uh clearly they talk they talk to each other in raptor one and raptor two don't do that in bed that's weird uh soggy bottom soaps uh buy soaps

from them i suppose uh rex 500r i imagine he rides a honda that sounds right uh dylan glukart glukert glukert glukert it's a fucking fascinating name, Dylan. Other producers this week are the Fat Penguin from the Blues Brothers, Peyton Meadows, Robert Toski, Ivan the Polish Hammer, Polish. Putzki. Yeah. Yeah. Who is he? Ivan Putzki.

He's a wrestler from the 70s and 80s. He's a Polish Hammer. He's the Polish Power, Ivan Putzki. Polish and Polish are spelled the exact same way. They are. You really have to look at context when you're reading that word. It's confusing. Yeah.

It would be the Polish hammer. Well, there's a Polish hammer, right? It's a tool. You dumb Pollock. Mitch Kumstein. Kumstein. Kumstein. Yeah.

Terje. Terje. Thorsen. Holland. Holland. Terje. Terje. Yeah. Thank you. E eros whiskey and tequila at centeno kennels edward gatto the cat uh matthew reinbold janice hill aaron bridges tammy brown buffy riley

phil de grief phil your de grief uh kathleen kathleen lincoln alex fac, Sarah Mock, Jessalyn DeGroff, Ethan Page, David Hualt, Andrew Henriquez. Henriquez? I've never heard that one. I've heard of Henriquez. All right. Kara Kirby. You heard of Petra Gallo before you met me? Probably not. That name doesn't exist, Andrew.

How dare you. Lyle North. Lucas Kirby. Crystal Dawn. Foxhound 11. not that name doesn't exist andrew how dare you there you lie on north uh lucas kirby crystal dawn foxhound 11 kristin with no last name riley serino billy niner uh joanne joanna roni rona renee uh alicia reynolds muneer karen gridley ricky newell cheryl agosto august agosto jake Newell, Cheryl Agosto, Jake Plotz, Michael Sturgis, Amanda Stemp, Corey Long, Sex Spam, 86, Jake Logan, Josh Craig, Erica Plachter, Jeff M., Andrea Gillette, Jeremy Ames, Smalls with no last name, Alisa, Alicia with no last name, David Jaskula, Patrick with no last name,id just just school uh patrick with no last name marissa dylan june morris miss birch birchstead oh she was gonna bring uh devil dogs to you somewhere i forget where you needn't do that james oh i have devil dogs now it has so i live in new york i can get

them any day right down the street thank you though thank you thank you todd layton a would no last name just the letter a doug Doug M. Marie would know last name. This show brought to you by the letter A. Stanley Pierre. Literally. Miss Kelsey Galbraith. Tina Lusignolo. Yeah.

Lucy Lolo. How do you even say that? Jennifer Wilson. John Kelly. Christopher Steninger. Steininger uh christopher and carmela strat laura with no last name heather leaguer leaguer uh oh gadmar g beach klein tiffany jones spencer duncan cook paula lundstrom lundstrom uh elena ewaltz uh megan hrickson, Dwayne Drury. Fuck, that's a tough one. John Niswender.

Niswender? I don't know. Simone Hawkins. Courtney Sassone, Annalise DePille. That's French, yes. Dr. Gip Gip, Melinda Noble, Mark Cole, Chris with no last name, Jennifer Keefe, D. Paul Guyette, Jason Slling, Sarah M., Amy Hills,

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Tim Ruggiero. Chris Jones. Todd Shamblin. Nevin Otley. Amy Gustafson. Kyle Franklin. Robert Postlewaite. Aaron Chaffee. Brenda Crump.

Kat Sutton. Suzanne Schmidt. India Hauser. Sadie McIver. Is that maybe like Bonaventure? Okay. Kelly Garja. You try to figure it out as you're on the fly. uh is that is that maybe like bonavide okay kelly carjo try to figure it out as you're on the flight like you're gonna yeah

kelly carjolotti uh bellis maserati maza mazari yeah jamie stevens donna edwards brandy mendel Mandy Mandel, Dragons Fire, Kristen Scobie, Princess Clues, Brooke Garzegna, Charles Berman III, Cecilia Fasano, Ben with no last name, Sarah Edgar, Elizabeth Carey, Isabel Gabrielle, Greg with no last name, Carla Darina, Isabel Gabriel, Greg with no last name, Carla, Darina, Darina, Gabriel, Isabel Gabriel, that's what it is. Kyle Hart, Kim Hollander, Ryan Milligan, Anthony Davis, probably not that one, Megan Rose, Josh Escamilla, Angel J, Alicia Lawrence, MJ Vieira, Eric England, Jake Keller, Karen Elise, Ryan Hagen, Mike Kellogg, Paul Gutierrez III, Dirty D, Gross Terrell with no last name, Jody Klinkerton-Valesky. Klinkerton-Valesky? Wow. Nina Slowinska. Slowinska. Ashley Fife. Paul Sipar. Sipar? What is that? C-I-P-A-R.

Sipar? The second. Sound it out, Wispen. What is it? Chloe Hopkins. Jace Grandquist. Thomas with no last name. Veronica with no last name.

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you to fuck yourself but don't be a dick but don't do it probably dm well yeah privately being like be like dipshits and we're like yeah totally we get it so do that keep hanging with us keep coming back because we're gonna be back next week with more Sonny Liston live from the Crime and Sports studios. We will see you next week. Bye. Hey, Prime members. You can listen to Crime and Sports early and ad-free on Amazon Music. Download the Amazon Music app today, or you can listen early and ad-free with Wondery Plus and Apple Podcasts. Before you go, tell us about yourself by completing a short survey at wondery.com slash survey.