Crime in Sports - #351 - You Are Not A Cop - Sonny Liston - Part 2

Episode Date: April 18, 2023

This week, we check back in with Sonny Liston for Part 2! When we left off, last week, he was being arrested. As we kick off this week, he's getting arrested! Sense a pattern here? We cover a very strange incident, in which Sonny pretends to be a cop, and several other run ins with individual police officers. All of this, while becoming the heavyweight champion of the world, and (sort of) training for his first fight against Ali. Not to mention, his thoughts on the civil rights movement of the early 1960s, and being investigated by senate committees!Pretend to be a police officer to pull women over, eat hot dogs & drink beer to prepare to fight The Greatest, and get arrested a whole bunch more with Sonny Liston!!Check us out, every Tuesday!We will continue to bring you the biggest idiots in sports history!! Hosted by James Pietragallo & Jimmie Whisman Donate at... patreon.com/crimeinsports or with paypal.com using our email: [e-mail] Get all the CIS & STM merch at crimeinsports.threadless.com Go to shutupandgivememurder.com for all things CIS & STM!!  Contact us on... twitter.com/crimeinsports [e-mail] facebook.com/Crimeinsports instagram.com/smalltownmurderSee Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

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A first listen is waiting for you when you start your free trial at audible.ca. Each week on the Mr. Ballin Podcast, now available wherever you get your podcasts, you'll hear strange, dark, and mysterious stories about inexplicable encounters, shocking disappearances, true crime cases, and everything in between. So go listen to Mr. Ballin Podcast, strange, dark, and mysterious stories on Amazon Music or wherever you get your podcasts. Hello, everybody, and welcome back to Crime and Sports. Yay! Oh, nice long yay, Jimmy.

Yay, indeed, Jimmy. Yay, indeed. My name is James Petrigallo. I'm here with my co-host. I'm Jimmy Wissman. Thank you, folks, so much for joining us. And your yay is really on target because... I'm so excited. We have so much fun. Yeah, that first episode of sunny liston last week

was probably my favorite episode so far it that's which is saying a lot because that was our 350th episode so it was a bit of a milestone and it was my favorite one to the to date and parts two and three are going to be just as crazy oh boy just as crazy we had we spent 45 minutes trying to figure out the date of his birth and never worked it out. Never figured it out. But it was the most enjoyable time ever. So go back and listen to part one if you haven't yet. Do that.

Also, head over to shutupandgivememurder.com. First of all, new merchandise up. So get your merch and also get your tickets for live shows. Holy shit. The whole Small Town Murder live year is on sale right now. May 5th in Detroit, May 6th in Pittsburgh. April the 20th, though, the virtual live show. Oh, I can't wait.

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Tons and tons of back catalog of bonus stuff. Obviously, the regular show is always free. And then every other week, you're going to get two new episodes. This week is no different. For crime and sports, what you're going to get is we're going to talk about personal ads again. One of our favorites. We do it about twice a year, and it's wonderful. How do people sell themselves pre-internet to each other

broad desperation just a beautiful just a newspaper ad put out to whoever and it's amazing we'll talk all about that and read a ton of them and they're so much fun so can't wait and then for small town murder we're going to get back into the serial killer childhood series which were very popular and we're going to talk about btk's childhood And it's weird. And it's all in his own words, too, which makes it even fucking creepier. So can't wait. Patreon.com slash Crime and Sports is where you get all of that. And that'll also get you a shout out at the end of the show where Jimmy's going to mispronounce your name, even though he would absolutely love to get it correct. I'd be great.

He would be thrilled to get it correct, but it's not going to happen. love to get it correct. I'd be great. He would be thrilled to get it correct, but it's not going to happen. So when last we left off with Mr. Liston, by the way, the third part has such a fucking hilarious twist to it, left hook to it, that

is, for lack of a better term for a boxer, that it just blew my mind. It blew my mind in part three. There's crazy stuff coming in this that's just as crazy, but that episode has one thing that you're going to go, wait a second, we don't even know that much about him? Are you kidding me?

It's going to be amazing. So when last we left off, old Sonny here was put for nine months into a workhouse for beating up a cab driver, or beating up a cop that was trying to put a ticket on a cab's windshield.

Not even him. Not even his business. Not even him. Not his car. It has nothing to do with him. According to him, it was the cab he called to come get him. So I don't know what the deal was. Not your problem.

Not your problem. Give the guy a couple extra bucks and a tip and that's that. But come on. Jesus Christ. So that's where we left off that was in uh st louis i believe and he got nine months in the workhouse now that taxi cab driver as well he got 30 days in jail oh as well he wasn't the one doing the main beating here so yeah he got less he didn't touch the pistol no i don't think he did no yeah uh sonny did so

uh the patrolman was a guy that Thomas Mello, we talked about. He suffered a fractured right leg, head injuries, and all that kind of shit. Not great at all. So September 28th, 1957. Okay. January 29th, 57. He was sentenced to nine months in the workhouse. He must have gotten out early.

Oh. I can't imagine good behavior was a factor with this guy. Right. Overcrowding, maybe? I don't know just say hey he's the champ let's let him out you know i was back it's the 50s yeah come on um so september 28th 57 he was out and about uh it's eight months later because uh he is arrested for quote strong arming which strong arm robbery is usually injuring what was what is

strong arm what is the definition strong arming apparently is collecting money or adult bullying I think it's adult he showed up at some guy's job and was like yo those pants are for bitches it's like what do you got capris on son he just started harassing him.

Yeah, started harassing him. Nice flip-flops. Like he just, I don't know. Maybe that's what it was. I'm not sure. Don't bully, make fun of his teeth. Yeah. I feel like this is probably collecting money, threatening somebody if they don't pay somebody else type of deal.

Because otherwise it would be a robbery if it was for him was for him so maybe he's trying to that makes sense there um now also i don't know if some jurisdictions might have that as like an arm like a robbery based on force but that's not armed you know what i mean that might be he went and grabbed the guy by the collar and said give me your fucking money or i'll beat you into a you know a pile of mush that'd be strong just so strong just so strong. It's illegal. He's just got such a strong arm that we got to take him in. Sorry. Sorry, Sonny.

So he returns to boxing. His suspension is up. And it's been a that's the funny part. He gets suspended for doing criminal shit. And then while he's suspended, he does a bunch more criminal shit. And they just let him back when his suspension is over. Well, I mean, he's he's suspended he does a bunch more criminal shit and they just let him back when his suspension's over well i mean he's he's suspended so we can't uh extend the suspension or suspend him again yeah he's already he's already double ground him you could tax them

on they're like nope come on back buddy so he comes back uh that is, where is this? January 29th, 1958. And he fights a guy named Billy Hunter, who's 10-4-2. Yeah, decent, but nothing special. But, you know, he's got to be rusty by now, Sonny, I would think. This is in Chicago Stadium in Chicago. Oh. And, yeah, this fight goes two rounds, and Sonny wins by TKO. So there we go.

He's now 15-1, and Sonny wins by TKO. So there we go. He's now 15-1, old Sonny. I'm going to bust through his next, like, eight fights pretty quick just because nobody has a great nickname, and you've never heard of any of these people. Okay. We'll try to find something funny in there, but otherwise, on March 11, 1958, he fought Ben Wise, who's 8-7-1 coming in,

sunning TKO in the fourth round. That was at the Midwest Gymnasium in Chicago, which I don't know. That doesn't sound very luxurious. That doesn't sound like, you know. Right. I can't imagine there's more than 500 seats. That's what I mean. It sounds bad. But then the next one's at the Kiel Auditorium in St. Louis,

which is the home of wrestling tapings for years and years and years, house shows. This, oh, wow, Howard Hess is one of the judges. That can't be Howard Hess, Howard Hess, right? I don't know. Who is that? Isn't that the guy from WKRP in Cincinnati? Oh. Yeah.

He was the teacher on that Head of the Class show. Yeah, that can't be him. I don't know. Maybe. I doubt it. But you know what? There he is. It's Howard Hess in 1958, 20 years prior to WKRP in Cincinnati. He was judging. That's wild. 30 years before Lisa Bonet was a smartass in his class. Robin Givens. Was it Robin Givens?

Yeah, that's where Tyson found Robin Givens, remember? You're right, yeah. Yeah, we did it in the episode there. It wasn't Lisa. No, Lisa Bonet was on The Cosby Show. She was a child then, you're right. Yeah, well, I think she, yeah, maybe, but she was on The Cosby Show. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

I don't think Tyson was cruising the, perusing The Cosby Show looking for pickups. That's Bill Cosby's job. That's Cosby's job. He's not going to, you don't want to step on Cosby's toes when it comes to the young ladies. You know what I mean? He might get a little crazy. You got to watch out for that. So he fights Burt Whitehurst here.

He's a 24 and 13 fighter and beats him in 10 rounds, wins on points. So nothing special there. He fights – When was that? What date? That is April 3rd, 1958. So less than a month. So he fought January, March, and April.

Yeah. He's trying to. Good Lord. He needs money probably, number one. And he's trying to jumpstart. He's not getting any younger. We don't know how old he is. That's true.

At this point, I mean, he's anywhere between 30 and 35 years old or 30 and 25 and 30 he could be now. We don't know. He gets younger every day depending on when he says his birthday that's right um next up so he beats what's his name maderos in two rounds next up wayne bethea in chicago stadium knocks him out in the first round okay good for him um next up is uh what is this september or october 7th 1958 frankie daniels and my down in miami beach so we're getting some some tropics in there ko in the first round for all yeah he likes the sun uh rematch against whitehurst who the guy he went the distance with and um the uh whitehurst

was knocked through the ropes and was attempting to climb back in as the final bell rang at the count of seven. Oh. So the fight was over. If the fight was five seconds longer, it's over. Right, right. He actually is actually saved by the bell, like literally. He is literally saved by the bell, which is a show I don't think Mike Tyson perused for people. So, yeah, that's how that works here.

So, yeah, then the unanimous decision, though, he wins. So Whitehurst is a tough son of a bitch, apparently. He can go the distance with you. You can knock him out the ring and he'll still get back in. He'll still try, anyway. Next up, he fights Ernie Cab, C-A-B. Ernie Cab. Ernie Cab is 13-9. He doesn't come out for the seventh round, Ernie. Oh, he fights Ernie Cab, C-A-B, Ernie Cab. Ernie Cab is 13-9.

He doesn't come out for the seventh round, Ernie. Oh, he quit on him. He quit. He quit. These are all in Miami Beach. The Whitehurst fight was in St. Louis. Next, Mike Dijon, who this is at Exhibition Hall, Miami Beach, and he's a 36-5-1 fighter. Wow.

He's got a lot of experience, and Sonny TKO in six rounds over him. This brings his overall record to 23-1 so far. We're in 59 now? Yeah, we're in 59. April 15, 1959 he fights Cleveland Big Cat Williams. Which is one of the cooler names you're going to

get in boxing. Cleveland Williams. Cleveland Williams, the big cat. That sounds like a defensive lineman and i like it um he's 47 two and one so that's a that's a bad man good fighter yeah career wise he goes 82 13 and two fucking hell uh he's got we never heard of that guy no that's what i mean he didn't make he didn't make millions of dollars he no he was done when he he was 37 years old probably and didn't remember what his address was. That's his life. Putting fists on people and has no idea where his bank accounts are.

That's rough, man. The ref calls the fight in the third round as Liston knocks him down twice and the ref waves it off. So 24-1. Next up, he fights Nino Valdez. This is August of 1959, August 5th, 1959 because he fights a week later also. Oh no, he fights the police a week later. I apologize. Oh, it's still a fight. We'll get there. So

August 5th, 1959, Nino Valdez, whose real name is Geraldo Ramos Pansiano Valdez. My god, that's so many sexy words. Nino. We're going Nino on that real quick. He's 47, 13, and 3, so he's starting to fight real fighters here.

He beats him here. Nino KOs him in the third round, so he's 25 and 1. August 12, 59, a week later, he is arrested by the St. Louis Police Department for suspicion of gambling. Oh Police Department for suspicion of gambling. Oh. Suspicion of gambling. So this is either – there's no details. This is from his FBI file.

He's got a lengthy FBI file list and that's public information at this point. Holy shit. Yeah. This could be he was in a gambling joint that got raided yeah something like that he could have been hanging around at a bookie's house when the cops came or or who know he could have been shooting dice on the side of the fucking against a building we have no idea somehow gambling here so he can't spell he can count though he can sure count yeah yeah punches and money so december 9th 1959 here he fights willie bezman off 42 17 and 7 they all have like the same

record all the guys he's fighting here um apparently he was this bezman off guy was getting the living shit beaten out of him and the sixth round he's bleeding from several gashes over his eyes real not just one he's got all sorts of shit going on. The referee stops the bout between rounds at the corner's request, and it was scored a seventh-round knockout that way. But then it's the bell rule stoppages and all that kind of shit that you get into. But 26-1 for him here. So February 23, 1960, he fights Howard Honeyboy King. The Honeyboy.

38-19-8, and he does not come back for the eighth round, this guy. So, yeah, Sonny will beat you to where you have to really think, do I want to come out there for more? Right. If I think I've had enough. You contemplate how bad this hurts. Yeah. That's fascinating. No shit.

He does it a lot, too. Yeah, all the time. All the time. He fights Cleveland Williams next again here. Yeah. Williams was down twice, and then the ref stops the fight because Williams looks like he doesn't know where he is in the second round. And then he fights Roy Harris at the Sam Houston Coliseum in Houston. Oh, yeah. Roy Harris, 29 Sam Houston Coliseum in Houston.

So Roy Harris, 29 and 1. This was a big fight for him. And he knocks Roy out in the first round. Fuck. Sonny's looking good, man. Sonny is looking real good here. So 1960 is coming around. We're in 1960, but we're going to talk a little bit about an arrest that happened here.

Okay. Here's his May 1960 arrest. We'll get to that because he was fighting in April. How about that? He fights. He's been arrested so many times already. Oh, so many. How he's not in prison, I don't understand.

The man's going to fight for the fucking championship of the world. He's not even the champ yet. This is pre-champ. Tyson waited till he was champ to do all this crazy shit he's not even champ and he's doing this shit and it never ends that's the thing about Sonny he keeps coming and coming and coming he's a bull he really is he was a real piece of shit oh he's a wild guy man and uh he's got a lot of quotes here, and it's fucking hilarious. So he says he gets arrested here, and here's his story on it. Let's get it from Sonny, I think, here.

Explain yourself. Okay. Quote, I was talking to a fan of mine on 40th and Market when this cop comes by and tells this guy to move along. The fan says he was just waiting for the bus, and the cop says, no, you're not, now beat it. I thought the guy had done something wrong until the cop says to me, that goes for you too. Tell Sonny Liston to beat it? What do you think is going to happen?

I'm going to beat you. I'm going to beat your face. That's what that is. Then I said, what is this, Russia or something? You can't stand on a street corner if i'm not allowed to stand on the street corner and talk to people then i might as well be in alabama for you know for a black guy in 1960 yeah very uh or 1999 or 2020 uh or whatever or 1860 doesn't matter uh so he said uh and I said, oh, here we go.

And this cop told me either move on or you get locked up. I said, you're kidding. So the cop booked me for corner lounging. Loitering? I've never heard it put as corner lounging. Never. Anybody that gets arrested for loitering anywhere, it's going to be wherever they were plus lounging. Parking lot lounging, corner lounging.

That's amazing. So now that cop should have asked me – asked what me and this fan were doing on the corner before he got tough. I think people who pay taxes have a right to stand any place they want. I think that's pretty guaranteed. Logical. Yeah. You know what people think after they read in the paper that I got arrested? They always read that you got arrested.

They think again. Oh, yeah, that guy. Oh, yeah, he got arrested again. So the official version of his arrest is a little bit different than his version, though, obviously. Just standing there. I don't know. though obviously you know just standing there i don't know yeah so according to the patrolman james best who by the way went out of his way to make sure that everyone knew he was black he's like i'm black what the fuck he wasn't he was like no so he really went out of his way to do that

um they said according to him he went to 40th and market to check a complaint and found six men five of them regulars on the corner. Okay. Dudes that normally hang out on there. Think the, you know, a wire crew, basically. Yeah. This is Bodie's Corner, and we got- A lot of Bodie around here.

And Big Mike. Got Naaman down there with his fucking hair, and you know, Mike's running some shit for him. Little Mike? Is it Big Mike? What was it? It was Big Mike, right? It was just Mike, I think, for a while.

Was it, was there a big Mike. What was it? It was big Mike, right? It was just Mike. I think for a while. Was it, was it, was there a little Mike? He was little Mike, but then by the end he's, he's Omar, you know? Who's the, who's the fat guy that they, was it? Oh, oh, oh. What was his name? Do you know what I'm talking about? Fuck yeah, yeah, yeah. Where they killed him.

I think it was little somebody. I could draw him perfectly right now. Yeah. It is. It's little Kev, little Kev. Littlev little kev like you little kev he's like do i look little to you i look little to you yeah with his fucking with his uh m&ms or whatever he's got reese's pieces all right yeah so um james best said he told them to move along and all did except one says best uh the man stared at best for a few seconds then said quote you're gonna have to take me in He told them to move along and all did except one, says Best.

The man stared at Best for a few seconds, then said, quote, you're going to have to take me in. That's Sonny Liston. So Best went to the call box, which back then they didn't have radios. They had call boxes. That little blue box on a post? You had to go, you wait there. I'm going to get this. I'm telling on you, basically. I'm going to open that box where the phone is.

Wow, that's tough, man. So he went to the call box and summoned a wagon. So Sonny called his manager, Georgie Katz, who got a hold of a magistrate named Harry J. Ellick. So this all is all inside information here. Ellick ends up, who is the magistrate, he makes a special trip to the police station to give a hearing right then and there for Sonny at the request of his manager at 9.20pm

which is not normal court time. No. No. So he discharges him with, which is hilarious, he basically says, I'm surprised that anybody who's reached your heights in the boxing game is involved in anything so stupid like this. But you wanted to be arrested.

You got arrested. But now we asked for it. He asked for it. Now they're talking about he's got a lot of links to the underworld, which is not surprising for Sonny. It's not. First of all, he's got tons of arrests, number one. But they said based on every all the undercover work of the police, whenever they're studying hoodlums in the area, quote unquote hoodlums in the 50s, criminals, they always notice that that Sonny is somewhere around. Normally, he's always there. He's always like in the background or, you know, was hanging out somewhere.

Like, why is Sonny always around criminals? That's the fence post nearby. Exactly. So he, you know know he's known for that one according to a lieutenant of the st louis police uh john vitale here who is a uh the one of the guys who owns part of liston's contract one of his managers essentially yeah he's been arrested 58 times over the years holy yeah um just a couple more than Sonny. That's a lot. Yeah, just a few.

I think it's a competition. Yeah. And he claims to be a good friend of Sonny's, obviously. He owns 12% of his contract. Also, Blinky Palmero owns 12%. Oh, him too. Yeah. You know about Blinky Palmero.

He's very upstanding. Little Blinky. And Frank Carbo owns 52% of the contract. 12 oh him too yeah you know about blinky palmaro he's very upstanding little blinky and frank carbo owns 52 of the contract and then two unidentified persons own 12 each who are probably very well-known organized crime figures i would assume i can only assume otherwise they'd be known yeah so liston though he says quote now you hear people say that lots of other guys own me. John Vitale got so much percent. Mitchell got so much percent and a bunch of other guys got so much percent. If that's so, what did I get? I'll tell you what I got. I got no percent. I mean, if there's a whole bunch of percentages out there and there's none left over. He said, well, I don't get what happened to Sonny's percent. He gets nothing.

So he says, now that don't make sense to me. I do all the fighting and I get nothing. Let me tell you, if Mitchell held anyone else in with him, then I don't know about it. Just like you know your boss, but you don't know who he's with. You know he pays you, that's all, but you don't know who he gets his money from. That's weird. Most people, I think, do actually know where the money comes from when they have a job. Yeah. If you work at a restaurant, you know that people buy food and they pay you money based on that.

That's how it works. What's the product, boss? I don't know what the hell he's talking about. But yeah, he doesn't. So he's a gangster is what you're saying? I guess, yeah. So Mitchell here, one of the one guy, he has admitted, quote, I don't definitely know the intricacies of the deal, but Blinky was definitely using his interest. Well, got to let Blinky kind of wet his beak here.

You know what I mean? Well, got to let Blinky kind of wet his beak here. You know what I mean? He said, but it's not in writing. And Liston said at one time, I think that Norris has a piece of my contract that own his contract, obviously. That's stupid. Because at the Kifoffer hearings, the congressional hearings or senatorial hearings about organized crime, there was tons of testimony there to indicate Vitaly and Blinky Palmero shared in Liston's purses. So they all know that. Yeah. You know, purses. So they all know that. Yeah.

Yeah. So in 1958, the guys he's with, basically, his managers, a bunch of mob guys, they move him from St. Louis to Philly and get him a new manager. A guy named Joseph Pep is his nickname. They call him Pep Barone. So Pep Barone, he's got a couple of arrests too. Oh, that's not bad. It's only two. You never know. I mean, he could have been drunk out there, going to drive in or something.

It doesn't have to be organized crime. I'm at Pep Barone. That's pretty great. Yeah. That's probably because that's the type of pizza he likes, right? He likes it, yeah. Pep Barone. Pep Barone.

Pep Barone. He said that he never managed a fighter. So you've never managed a fighter before, so your first one should be a guy who's up for the heavyweight, in the heavyweight champion contention. That doesn't seem suspicious at all. Seems totally normal, right? Yeah. That's normal. Yeah.

Well, Barone's a longtime associate of Blinky Palmeros, and they called him Palmeros Detail Supervisor. That was what they called him. So he's like the logistic man of the mob operation or what. So Barone says that he was not a front for anybody at all. But when he, like Mitchell, had the opportunity to testify before the committee there, the Kvaffer investigation, he turned up. He wouldn't show up because he said he was in a hospital suffering from anxiety and deep depression. Unavailable in a hospital. In other words, he didn't want to testify against. Right.

Yeah. He'd either have to take the mob figures or say things that will get him killed. So he just went, I'm sick. That's the ticket. We don't hear you coughing. No, you don't understand. It's super sick. It's not that'll get him killed. So he just went, I'm sick. That's the ticket. We don't hear you coughing. No, you don't understand. It's super sick. It's not that kind of sick.

It's all up here, chief. What's the kind that's really hard to diagnose and fix? Yeah. That's what I have. And that they can't tell if I'm telling the truth or not. Back then, especially. Back then, there wasn't nearly the same kind of, yeah, didn't know anything about mental illness back then. So he next up, Sonny, fights Zara Foley or Zora Foley.

Zora. It would be cool if it was Zoro Foley, but Zora. Third round knockout. He knocks Foley down twice in the second round and then in the third round knocks him out cold here. 51-3 Foley was coming in. So not terrible. Eddie Machin up next. He's 34 and two.

This is at, Oh wow. This is where the Seattle pilots played. Uh, six, six stadium. It's called the, uh, six. Like you're sick with an S on the end. Yeah. Six stadium. It, uh, had, it was three 45 to the power rallies for all your baseball fans. So a little bit of a home run park, as you might imagine.

That's ridiculous. Yeah, so that's crazy. When Seattle left to go to Milwaukee, they just tore it down and it became a parking lot. So he fights Eddie Match in there. This goes all 12, and Sonny wins a unanimous decision. Oh, boy. Next up, Howard King. He already fought Howard King, right?

Yeah, he did. He's fighting him again here. This is March 8, 1961 in Miami. He's 40, 21, and 8, Howard King. He already fought Howard King, right? Again, he's fighting him again here. This is March 8th, 1961 in Miami. He's 40-21-8, Howard King, and he gets knocked out in the third round, bringing Liston to 32-1. And he has piled

him on in the last couple of years. Oh yeah, all these fights are, you know, pretty consistent. Every few months. Yeah. He needs the money. June 12th, 1961. Not a fight so much as an arrest in Philadelphia for impersonating a police officer. What? He can't spell police officer.

How the fuck? Take one look at this man's knuckles and go, you're a police officer, my ass. at this man's knuckles and go, you're a police officer, my ass. This is shortly before 3 a.m. on June 12th. A 29-year-old woman named Mrs. Dolores Ellis was driving home alone through Philadelphia's

Fairmont Park when she noticed a car following her. 3 in the morning. The car pulls up alongside of her and a spotlight is put on her and she's ordered to pull over and stop. Okay. So, yeah, you know, pull over.

So she's like, oh, fuck, the cops are pulling me over. So just then a guy who's a park guard there in this park, a guy named John Warburton, he drove up. And so the car that was telling this woman to pull over turns off their headlights and drives away super fast. So Warburton, the park guy, he chases. And at some point they were up to speeds of 80 miles an hour while being chased through the park and then into the streets here. So when he finally got up near them them he actually caught up to them one of the guys bailed one of the guys in sunny's car will be sunny's car jumps out and bails and so warburton fires a warning shot at him what from the car i've seen this chase a million times on

live pd cops whatever they never do that part. You have to choose which never. They never just roll down the passenger window and buck a couple of shots at him to make him feel. That never happens. We'll be right back. Wait out. Hold on. That's never an option. That's why.

Wow. But it worked. The guy stopped. Really? Yeah, he stopped. He was like, whoops, never mind. And the driver remained motionless behind the wheel. He stopped too. He was like, oh, OK, this guy's becoming a billionaire in the process. But along the way, Taylor has had to wage war,

first by taking on a very powerful, very famous manager, Scooter Braun, and then by going up against the biggest live events company, Ticketmaster. Hi, I'm David Brown, the host of Wondery's show Business Wars. We go deep into some of the biggest corporate rivalries of all time. And in our latest season, Taylor Swift will shake up not only the music business, but Hollywood and the NFL. Follow Business Wars wherever you get your podcasts. You can listen ad-free on the Amazon Music or Wondery app. The wait is over.

So far, you're not losing. The only thing you're losing is my patience. Quickly, I see that. Ding! The queen of the courtroom is back. I didn't do anything. You wouldn't know the truth if it came up and slapped you in the face. I see he's not intimidated by anything.

I can fix that. New cases. She wanted to fight me. Leave her alone. Okay, so, um... This is not a so. This is a period. She wanted to fight me. Leave her alone. Okay, so, um... This is not a so. This is a period. Classic Judy.

Did you sleep with her? Yes, Your Honor. You married his cousin. His brother. That's not him. Yes, ma'am. I would make a beeline for the door. The Emmy Award-winning series returns.

How did I know that? I have crystal ball in my head. It's an all new season. It's streaming. You can say anything. Judy justice only on freebie. So they said that the dry Warburton will say the driver's face was, as he put it,

absolutely expressionless. He wasn't like, Oh shit. I just got shot at. He wasn't like, oh, shit, I just got shot at. He wasn't scared. He didn't look pumped up. He looked just calm as can be, just like he was driving 20 miles an hour in a 15 and got pulled over. Like, just real. Been through this before. Yeah, real calm here.

So the two men were charged with impersonating an officer, obviously, extinguishing auto lights to avoid identification, which is also a crime, resisting arrest, disorderly conduct, and conspiracy. Oh? Because of whatever they were going to do to this girl. So they're released on $300 bail. The driver of the car obviously identified as Sonny Liston, who at this point is the number one contender for the heavyweight championship of the world. What was he about to do?

They were about to. What do you think they were going to do? They were. Were they going to pull that girl over and rape her? I think. I mean, the idea was probably hopefully to talk her into it. But I think I think if it wasn't going down. Yeah, it doesn't seem.

What else did you come to there? This is how serial killers pull do serial. Right. wasn't going down yeah it doesn't seem what else did the conclusion do you come to there no this is how serial killers pull do serial killers do they pretend to be cops pull you over and get like this is not a this is dangerous this is scary yeah this is how many times has he done this before yeah that can't be the first time right they just got that idea give me a fucking That's wild. So it is Liston's 19th arrest since 1950. Wow. Oh, man. So the charges on July 1st, though, are dismissed. For what?

They're dismissed after a hearing, and at the judge's suggestion, Liston and his friend apologized to Mrs. Ellis. Holy. You say you're sorry right now, Son Mrs. Ellis. Holy. You say you're sorry right now, Sonny. No, seriously. You almost raped her in a dark park. You better apologize, mister. Say the words. What the fuck is that, man?

Wow. By the way, this is how they list him in the police, like his official, you know, tail of the tape here. Six foot one and a half 220 black hair maroon eyes his eyes are not maroon they're brown but for some reason they say maroon like he's a vampire or something like he's the devil i've never seen maroon eyes before i've never heard that as a description of somebody's his eyes are blood were blood red. Like, huh? I've never heard Maroon. Never. Never.

They say he's married at this point. Don't know where his wife's at. Don't know what's going on there. He's residing at 5785 Dunlap in Philadelphia. And so they give, I love how back then they give everyone's address out. That's crazy. Everyone.

When they're talking about a court case. That's fucking psychotic. They'll talk to the jurors afterward and they'll be like, you know, juror Howard Hess or whatever fucking, you know, of this address. And you're like, what? 12 Park Place. Why would you do that? That is wild. He just voted for death penalty for this guy.

That's crazy. Someone could be upset about that. So July 17th, 1961, Sports Illustrated does a bit of a piece on Sonny Liston here. What could they possibly say? Well, this is the most interesting guy in sports right now. Ali hasn't come on the scene yet. He'll box soon in the Olympics, but he's the number one contender who is a menace to society. This guy, he's interesting. Yeah, he's the number one contender who is a menace to society. Like this guy is, he's interesting.

Yeah, he's a problem. He's a huge terrifying problem. He's scary. So this Sports Illustrated, it's like a whole profile on Sonny. What's he about? What makes this man tick as an interesting sports figure? So they basically just did the last podcast podcast and a half episode right so far yeah so far that's what they're gonna do is find out when he's born right so they take a while

everybody yeah well not really no they're actually just gonna kind of let sunny talk and then go well i mean it's it's a fluff piece it's a fluff piece god which is rough here um now sunny the way he describes boxing is he describes boxing wrestling all sorts of different sports all in one thing. He says, quote, a boxing match is like a cowboy movie. He said, there's got to be good guys and there's got to be bad guys. That's what people pay for, to see the bad guys get beat. So I'm the bad guy, but I change things. I don't get beat.

So he just described exactly who he is. He's the heel. The same way Ali. I'm sure Ali learned partially from him too. You know what I mean? Because Ali said, fuck it. I'll be the bad guy. Let Joe Frazier be the good guy.

I don't care. I'll get paid. What the fuck do I care? I'm going to win, so it doesn't matter. Yeah. So he says he's just described everything. So he said, quote, wow, everybody thinks I should be mean and tough, but I'm not. What?

You pummel police officers in alleys for writing tickets. Take their service weapon. Take their service revolver. Not only that, you try to abduct a woman. Right. Like, what are we talking about? And that's just this year. You put a spotlight on your car, for Christ's sake.

That's just this year. So, not cool. So, yeah, weird. I should be mean and tough, but I'm not. Fighting ain't fun. In the ring, I look tough because I'm trying to get the scare on the other guy. The scare. I like that.

Trying to get the scare on him. That sounds so old-timey. Yeah, see? I'm trying to get the scare on him. See? Yeah. Trying to get the drop on him. Trying to get the scare, him. That sounds so old-timey. Yeah, see? I'm trying to get the scare on him. See? Yeah, yeah. Trying to get the drop on him. Trying to get the scare, not get you the drop.

That's right. Get the scare on him. The drop's no problem. He said, and the way some of these suckers fight, I guess they are scared. Okay. Yeah, suckers. I love it. So Liston says, by the way, because they say, well, you must hate cops all the times you get arrested and you beat a couple up.

And you're just generally disrespectful to any uniformed person you come in contact with. And he says, absolutely not. I love cops. Oh, do you? He loves them. He said, quote, if we didn't have cops, the world would be in a terrible fix. Everyone would have to go around wearing a gun. Most cops is good guys.

But some of those people think them badges make them big shots. They polishes those badges at night before they go to sleep, and they polishes them badges when they get up in the morning. Okay. So. He polishes them. He polishes them up. He talks like Stevie.

He does. No, he talks like Stevie. He's an Arkansas hillbilly. Remember when he came out of arkansas he just walked up to a guy in st louis and was like where's my mom live right yeah he's a country bumpkin that's the way it works who's just a gangster so um they talk about at this point him and his wife his wife geraldine and he um they say that he lives modestly because you know i don't know he spends a lot of his money. He pisses it away probably. It's probably also what his friends tell him to do.

It raises suspicion if you spend money. Yeah, definitely. He drives a Ford sedan. Nothing – he doesn't drive a fancy car. CD or some shit. Yeah. They said his home is a nice, well-kept home in an integrated neighborhood of row houses in West Philadelphia. They said the house was around $15,000,

so it wasn't like he didn't buy any extravagant house. They say he hasn't reached the big money yet. His largest purse was $30,000 so far in his career. That's it. And the most he ever earned in a year was $39,000. Is that right? Think about that. He's the number one contender, and he's got a name.

They do articles on him in Sports Illustrated because he's all this type of shit. That one guy we talked about, we go, how the fuck does he make any money? He doesn't. He doesn't. $39,000. Yeah, $39,000. That's all he made, which back then, obviously, is $200,000. But he should be making more than that.

Yeah. Right. Floyd Patterson's making a lot more than that. Rocky Marciano made more than that. Tyson Fury is destroying. He makes so much money. Yeah. Floyd Mayweather made fucking a billion dollars.

You know what I mean? Right. Sonny Liston would kill him. He also outweighs him by 80 pounds. But he'd destroy him, though. Yeah. It would be like Oz if he did that. He'd be fucking...

Oh, dude. Yeah. He'd be making him suck his dick in a corner of the laundry room he'd make marshmallow fluff out of that puffy fucking tyson fury yeah oh i meant uh mayweather but maybe him too i don't know i think he would yeah he was a great fighter liston's mean yeah yeah he doesn't care about himself he just wants to hurt you. That's it. So this is his first home. They said it's a new environment for him. And nowadays, he's not letting people talk him into things as much.

He's being more assertive and thoughtful, he says. He talks about, you know, things like he says, quote, this is talking about the civil rights protests down south. He says, quote, I think those freedom riders is stupid. What? There was a lot of people because back then it was just like there's a lot of polarizing political issues right now that you can jump on either side. We're not going to do that, obviously. But that was the big issue back then. And a lot of athletes talked about this.

I remember in the Jim Bowden Ball for book him talking about him and his wife talking to Elston Howard, who's a black Yankee, and his wife. And Elston Howard was against civil rights shit going on down south at that point. That was in the early 60s. Same thing. He was against it. He's like, I want this area of people in the country to like me. I don't want to be looked at as a radical type thing. Whereas it was, you know, nowadays, obviously, you look at that and you go, yeah, duh. But back then it was a controversial issue. And there was two sides of it, too, for being against it was obviously the hateful part. But also the other side was like, it's just causing trouble. If we all just get along, then just leave it alone. Yeah yeah but that obviously wasn't going to happen that's not a thing because the clan was murdering people yeah when you have one side it's willing to murder people and you

know have the sheriffs all you can't just get along yeah but i don't and i don't know how much these people knew about elston howard or sunny liston knew about this in 1961 i don't know if they had were really exposed to the nuances of the whole shit. But he said, I think those Freedom Riders is stupid. That ain't no way to do things. You have to fight for what you get. It's like boxing. No use being in there if you can't catch punches or if you just catch punches

because you're not going to get the decision. You go out hunting rabbits and you pop away at a rabbit without thinking about a thing what the fuck are you talking about son you just you just confused me sonny i i'm gonna read that again just so we can try to connect what's he trying to say i think this is like brain damage starting already like this is like if you talk to someone with dementia and you're just like where did this conversation go right this, this is like if you talk to someone with dementia and you're just like, where did this conversation go? Right?

This is the reasoning for everybody that's against civil rights. This makes sense to them only. Yeah. I think those Freedom Riders are stupid. That ain't no way to do things. You have to fight for what you get. It's like boxing. No use being in there if you

just catch punches because you're not going to get the decision you go out hunting rabbits and you pop away at a rabbit without thinking about a thing okay now it made sense up till the rabbit point he's got more rabbit talk we'll see if he done up to that point he's saying they're just going down there getting the shit beaten out of them by the cops with dogs. We've seen the footage of people getting beat with hoses and dogs biting them and all that kind. So he's saying that's not going to work. Meanwhile, that's what ended up working because people saw if you see those images for a couple of years and you go, those people, I just see them walking. And I see those people beating the shit out of them.

Unless you're like a Klan member, you're going to go, I think those people are assholes. I think I've changed my mind here. You you know it's very obvious who the aggressor is yeah that's what i mean so uh whatever he says uh he continues with the rabbit but if that rabbit jumps up and shoots at you then the next time you're going to think twice before you go rabbit hunting okay i don't know what that means you go out hunting rabbits you go rabbit hunting. Okay. I don't know what that means. You go out hunting rabbits, you go out hunting rabbits, and you pop away at a rabbit

without thinking about a thing. Okay. But if that rabbit jumps up and shoots at you, then the next time, you going to think twice before you go rabbit hunting. So is he saying just live your life, and then when somebody picks on you for the color of your skin, you just fight back, and then they leave you on you for the yeah for the color of your

skin you just fight back and then they leave you alone yes dude that doesn't work that didn't work either yeah everything was tried this isn't the beginning so over the next few years all of that was tried and yeah he's saying you gotta hit back at them when they attack you with dogs you attack them with dogs or rubber hoses and you fight about it maybe next time they're not so which they just bring guns and shoot you next time yeah that's all i mean this was not exactly a fair matchup so it's almost like he was he's enormous and nobody would pick on him because he he's got a reputation for being tough yeah it's almost like if you're small and unassuming people will pick on you it's almost like if you're not the number one contender for the heavyweight championship of the world, people are more likely to be aggressive toward you.

Yeah. Maybe don't ask a guy that can clearly defend himself. When you look at Sonny, too, his face is just stone, man. His fists are the size of cantaloupes. Cinder blocks, right? You don't even have to know he's the heavyweight number one contender. You just go, I'm not fighting that guy. Fuck, that guy looks nasty.

He looks tough. Couldn't care less if he knows how to fight. One punch is going to hurt me. Stone face and big fists. So he says, now, if some sucker comes and blows up my house, then. Okay. Okay. If some sucker comes and blows up my house, then someone else okay if some sucker comes and blows up my house then someone

else's house is going to be blown up in other words he'll blow up your house right back and the next time this sucker ain't gonna be in no hurry to go blow up no houses i mean he just sunny i just i feel like you don't get it. He's acting like this is how you treat a bully at school. But the bully doesn't have the entire, you know, the institutional, the police force working with the Klan against them. They don't have all that shit, though. They're like civil rights era. It's a little different. The principal doesn't sit on the bully unit with him.

Yeah. You've got people that are fucking fucking neutral of this situation that that doesn't exist down there no fuck no um he says he's very religious as well oh obviously obviously he's a very pious man i mean clearly clearly if anybody is as a lamb of god it's this guy right he's a very eye for an eye, tooth for a tooth guy. He's Old Testament. Yeah. Maybe he's Jewish.

We don't know. So he says he says his prayer before every meal. And he says, the only time I didn't say it was at Jefferson City, which is in jail, or at the workhouse, because then I didn't have time. You had certain time to eat, and if you didn't finish all the food on your plate, they'd put you in the black hole and feed you bread and water. So you get thrown in the hole. For not finishing your food in time? On time, yeah.

They put you in the hole for that. He doesn't have time for a few words before he starts eating. That may be too tight of a lunch break. No, I think so. So he says that he believes that he's going to beat Ingmar Johansson and then he might be able to fight Floyd Patterson after

that. He said, I ain't going to say how I'll fight Johansson because I never know he's going to fight me. I never know he's going... That's fucking how he said it. I thought that was me. I thought I read it wrong, but it's really hard. Don't forget, James, he's going. That's fucking how he said it. Okay. I thought that was me. Thought I read it wrong, but it's really hard. Okay.

Don't forget, James. He's very dumb. He's also been hitting the head a lot. So, yeah. I won't try to figure him out. I'll just keep throwing punches and crowd him. Not even trying to figure him out. As for Patterson, he says, Floyd's a bad motherfucker.

He says, I fight more than I have to with a guy that has fast hands. But Patterson's hands are no faster than mine so um yeah patterson was fast as shit he was apparently he's saying not not as fast as me so uh mitchell there his manager says one day sonny casually reached down and scooped a pigeon off the sidewalk in st louis just picked up a pigeon gross mitchell said man turn that pigeon loose everybody's looking they think you're a cannibal which is he a pigeon also i don't think you know what cannibal means sir what's happening what is happening right now rabbits and pigeons and i'm very confused sunny liston right now sunny helpny, help me. What the fuck, bro? Holy shit. Monroe Harrison says that Sonny's very strong.

He said, quote, I once found Liston picking up the front end of a Ford car. Don't never for nobody, I told him, do no heavy lifting. Okay. Don't fuck your body up. Don't be doing that. Telephone company records indicate that Liston's opponents called John Vitale several times just before they were knocked out by one of Liston's opponents had talked to his manager several times just before he was knocked out by Sonny Liston. So there's a lot of. Which round am I going down?

That kind of thing? Yeah. There's a lot of fight fixing. And in the 50s, there was a lot of fight. It was a completely mob-run industry. Sure. Completely mob-run. So there was a lot of fight fixing.

So, yeah, they said there's speculation among the boxing men that several of Sonny's opponents have taken dives. They said, no doubt, without Sonny's knowledge. They're like, we don't think Sonny's in on this at all. This is just the management work in his career. You know, he doesn't know what's going on. Um, they said that,

one well-placed boxing official suspects at least six of his fights were fixed so far. Oh, that's a lot. That's an awful lot. Yeah. So they, uh,

they said that, you know, if he's such a good fighter, which must be assumed because he's been beating everybody, what kind of champion would he make if he beats Patterson? If he's the example of a champion, what is that? Well, one eminent boxing figure said, quote, he'd be a poor example. Not only for youth, but as an international representative.

Wow. His testimony before the Kieffhofer Committee was a falsehood from beginning to end. Oh. All the kids really care about your falsehoods in front of the Kifoffer Committee. That's what it is. They're really into that. They read a lot about that. Holy shit.

Now, Sonny says he's fine. He's content. He says that he slyly, quote, admits to being able to read some, he says. So he's hiding his literacy. Somebody taught him his ABCs? Apparently so. He says, quote, when I have to go someplace, I can read the streets. Oh.

He's learned that. He's learned street signs, things of that nature that are set in place. So he's learned fixed objects and what they are. It's not reading. It's memorization. It's a very street smart. Yeah, that's what it is. It's not learning. It's set in place. So he's learned fixed objects and what they are. It's not reading. It's memorization. It's a very street smart. Yeah, that's what it is. It's not learning. It's just remembering.

Yeah, he does that. And then his wife says, quote, Sonny reads good. He just don't have any confidence in himself. I don't have to read, says Sonny. I get Jerry to do it all for me, his wife. So he's like, yeah, I might be able to read, but I just have her read all my shit I get Jerry to do it all for me his wife so he's like yeah I might be able to read but I just have her read all my shit so that is hilarious so that's

that's Sonny Liston in Sports Illustrated what kind of champs he gonna be it's kind of a fluff piece honestly it makes him sound better than he did before so August 2nd 1961 he's gonna be released on $500 bail on a charge resulting from an incident at the this is the the car chasing impersonating an officer deal here.

He's released from jail here. Jesus. Isaac Cooper was the other guy, by the way. The other his partner in the car there accused of forcing a motorist to the side of the road. Jesus Christ. This is awful. So Liston apologized, like we said. The Pennsylvania State Athletic Commission said, though, sorry, you're going to be suspended for actions detrimental to boxing.

Oh. Which sounds dumb because it's literally men punching each other in the face. What could be detrimental to that? Yeah. Honestly. But delegitimizing the sport is obviously terrible. Yeah. And I mean, posing as a police officer for something very obvious, kidnapping, rape, some sort of that.

Why would you need control of her? That doesn't look good for boxing. No, especially at three o'clock in the morning. Yeah, that's terrible. That looks bad. That's going to be the champ. Yeah, that's a nightmare for anybody. No shit.

So he and his wife, Liston and Geraldine, moved to Denver, and there's a guy named Father Edward Murphy, who's a Catholic priest, who's teaching Sonny to read and write as part of a rehab program. Oh, that's great. So he is going to read good now. It's about time. Yeah. So after his release on this and everything, he's good now, right?

I mean, he should be learning a lesson. And about to be much better. That's what I mean. After his release, he has another altercation with a cop. He loves the cops, remember? Yeah. He left an officer. This is amazing.

He picked up an officer and dumped him headfirst into a trash can and left him there with his little feet kicking in the air it's like a holy shit like a cartoon he just picked him up and stuffed him in there yeah wow so a police sergeant put out the word that liston should leave town or else oh we're starting this the philly police are basically saying we're going to war with him so that's when philly that's when he packed up and they moved to Denver was because he's putting police officers in fucking garbage cans head first. Wow. So now his managers sell his contract to a group headed by Carbo and Palermo. Very upstanding.

And then Liston tries to get into shape here during all of this. But while he's trying to get into shape, he gets arrested two more times. In Denver? Yeah, in Philly, in Denver. That was the disorderly conduct, resisting arrest, the impersonating a cop. So anyway, he's suspended by the Pennsylvania Athletic Commission there, and he's reinstated three months later. So he's got to get rid of his management apparently yeah so he's gonna do that he's gonna uh he said earlier this year it became obvious that he

wouldn't get a title fight with floyd patterson because of his managers and everything being so shady rumblings yeah yeah so uh he got rid of barone and bought his contract from him for $75,000 to be able to get rid of him. So he had to pay off the guy $75,000. So Sonny says, me and Pep was getting to be one big happy family, and I hated to let him go, but there wasn't anything else to do. That was the manager there. So he arranges to buy Barone's 50% interest in himself. And so now he's got all sorts of managers trying to get him to work with him here. Rocky Marciano, Joe Lewis included.

Oh. Yeah. They want to manage him. Yeah. Wow. So he finally settles on Georgie Katz of Philly. That's not a very accessible name. No.

Not Rocky Marciano or Joe Lewis or anything. No, Joe Lewis. So he used to manage a guy named Jill Turner, and they said that he's an interesting guy. He's a very – they called him vain and pleasant and garrulous. So he sounds like he's like a bewigged French monarch from the 1700s or something. Yeah. like he sounds like a French monarch from the 1700s or something. Yeah. So he said that,

um, he thinks that the only thing wrong with boxing is what he says is bum officials. Oh yeah. He said, quote, in all my years in boxing, I've never heard Frankie Carbo's name mentioned.

He said, I started with a clean broom. This is cats. I'll end up with a clean broom except for wear and tear. I'm president of a pretty big picture framing company what what does that mean he owns a company that frames pictures okay and he's saying i you know i don't need this money basically i'm not doing this for desperation of money i could frame pictures till the end of time i'm doing great with the picture

frames he said i could retire tomorrow and just tour the world. Only I don't fly, get seasick, and I can't swim. So he's stuck here. The first time, he said, the first time Liston came to me, I turned him down. This is a headache, I said to myself. I don't know why I came back to managing fighters. I have no answer. Why did I come back?

That's a very good question. I just gave myself a giant inconvenience. I just have to do that. Now, Liston said, I decided to pick Katze because I like the way he speaks up for his fighters. That's fair. And Katze says, quote, I have screamed. I was fined by the Pennsylvania Athletic Commission. I was fined by the New York Athletic Commission. I called some of their officials bums. I've been screaming and hollering that for years. But Gil Turner is a wealthy kid. I'm just driving a plain 57 Chevrolet.

Gil has a $7,000 Cadillac. Oh. Which back then was a lot. That's huge. And that 57 Chevy, plain or not, is hot shit right now. It's worth a fortune. It was $2,500 back then. Yeah.

But today it's... Brand new. $70,000. So the second time Liston came to Katz, Katz said he turned him down when he discovered that he was only getting 10% of Liston's purses. He said it was an insult, and I told Liston, George Katz doesn't manage a fighter for 10%. Oh. Oh, third person and all. He said, you can print that.

It's true. But then I stopped to think, what had I done to deserve a bigger share of Sonny's purse? Yeah, Sonny built himself up on his own. He's ready to fight for the championship. You want more? How many punches have you thrown, Katz? Yeah, that's what I mean. If you built him up from nothing to the number one contender, that'd be different.

But you're getting a number one contender. He said, so usually I have a 50-50 arrangement with my fighters, but 50% of nothing is nothing, while 10% of Liston could be $200,000 in a couple years. I thought about it. I knew this would bring me right back in the limelight. So he just wants to ride Sonny's coattails. He's usually getting 50%? 50-50 from the fighters, yeah.

Wow. Because a lot of times those managers, they put up training costs, they put up all that shit, and so then they recoup them off the fighter, which is the same thing record companies do. Yeah. You know, they sell two million albums and they're in debt to the record company still, like, based on their math and, you know, movies that made a billion dollars never made a profit. It's just math. So he goes on to say that,

I signed an affidavit, this is Katz, in effect, no one cuts, no one has nothing to do with anyone, I'm Liston's manager. No ifs, no buts, no nothings. That's not how that phrase goes. They wanted to know whether Sonny was getting an honest manager. He is. Proof enough, Senator Kiefer doesn't know

Katz. My only vice is smoking. The Senate committee doesn't even know who I am. Right. I'm straight. I'm straight. He said, I don't believe the American people will allow a man to be kicked when he's down. In the United States, we give a man a second chance. And then Katz

says, quote, it's nice to be nice. All that's wrong. We love to kick a guy when they're down. That's what we all, that's what everybody does. Holy shit. And then pull him right out of the garbage heap in the end. That's what we like to do. And then we will tear him down again just for the fun of it.

Yeah. He said, everyone should live happily ever after. I think Liston's going to be on the level, is what Katz says. Sonny Liston's lived a clean and beautiful life since coming to Philadelphia. He won't spit on the pavement because he's afraid.

So that, by the way, when he made that statement a few days later, that's when Sonny got arrested for corner lounging. That was that arrest. Then a few weeks later was the park incident. You get what I'm saying here. Then he dumped a cop in the trash. Yeah, absolutely.

But also, Liston said, hey, anybody's entitled to a mistake. Yeah, but you've got fucking 20 of them already. Jesus Christ, man. Now, the Pennsylvania Boxing Commissioner, Alfred M. Klein, he approves of the Liston-Katz management contract.

Team up, yeah. He said, quote, we were moved by compassion. We decided to give Liston a break. We instituted our own investigation of Katz. He was clean. Not even any rumors or whispers. I'm not a friend of his either. I didn't talk to him for two years.

So Klein, though, he says, I feel that Liston has let boxing down. He continues to fail to show that he has any perception of his position as a possible heavyweight champion. That makes sense. So December 4th, 1961, he fights Albert Westfall

in Philadelphia. He is Westfall's 24-8-3. Liston knocks him out in the first round. So 33-1. Now there's going to be a delay because he's supposed to fight Floyd Patterson. They're talking about that. But Cus D'Amato, by the way, who's Floyd's manager, so Floyd and Mike Tyson, they said that Cus was associated with racketeers and had his manager's license revoked by the New York State Athletic Commission for alleged misconduct in connection with the Floyd Patterson-Ingmar Johansson fight in June 1959.

So, yeah, Cuss, I mean, he's a fucking Italian guy here in the boxing industry. He knows a lot of guys. Put it that way. knows a lot of guys. Put it that way. If you don't know when Crystal Pepsi was discontinued, what was in Al Capone's vault, or which famous meteorologist is Lenny Kravitz's second cousin, then you haven't spent enough time on Wikipedia. But that's okay. I am here for you. I'm Darcy Carden, and I'm inviting you to listen to my new podcast, WikiHole, from SmartList Media. Discover the craziest rabbit holes on Wikipedia with me and my funny friends as we bring the cyber frontier directly to your tympanic membrane. And if you listen to my podcast, you

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So he may or may not have been involved in some shit with the fight. You had to move within certain circles in the 50s in that era. You know what I mean? You just had to. I mean, that was who was running everything. So he they also said that civic leaders were reluctant, worrying that Liston's unsavory character would set a bad example for the youth. The NAACP urged Patterson not to fight Liston, fearing that a Liston victory would hurt the civil rights movement. Oh, because he's against it. Yeah, and he's a bad guy. He's exactly what all those people down there are saying that all fucking black people are is what they're saying. Like putting Sonny Liston on the cover and going,

here's our guy, not going to help the cause any is what they're saying. They said many black people didn't like Liston on the cover and going, here's our guy. Yeah. Not going to help the cause any, is what they're saying. They said many black people didn't like Liston at the time, too. Yeah. At all. Asked by a young white reporter why he was not fighting for freedom in the South, he said, I ain't got no dog-proof ass. What? Dog-proof ass? Oh, his ass.

I ain't got no dog-proof ass. I don't know. No, his ass isn't dog-proof ass? Oh, his ass. I ain't got no dog-proof ass. I don't know. No, his ass isn't dog-proof. I ain't got no dog-proof ass. Okay, because he's going to get bit by dogs. That makes sense. Okay. That was his little deadpan.

I ain't got no dog-proof ass. That's very nice. I don't know what that means, but if you don't have a dog-proof ass, maybe you should want civil rights because dogs can bite your ass too. Yeah, maybe get them so they don't bite your ass. So in 63 later on, after the 16th Street Baptist Church bombing, Liston was actually in Europe doing boxing exhibitions over there, picking up some coin. He came back to the United States and said that he was, quote, ashamed to be in America

after that happened. John F. Kennedy, who was the president at the time and alive, said he didn't want Patterson to fight Liston either. When Patterson met with Kennedy in January 62, Kennedy suggested that he avoid Liston, citing the Justice Department concerns over Liston's ties to organized crime. Unbelievable. Even the president said.

He hated so much about him. Yeah, so much. Now, Jack Dempsey, world famous, obviously, X-Way champion. He spoke when he said that he said that Liston should not be allowed to fight for the title. You fucking got out of serving in World War I. Who are you to fucking tell me? Yeah. He said, fuck you, draft dodger. So, hey. And Liston said that Patterson has faced mostly white challengers since becoming champion, and Patterson is drawing the color line against his own race. That's what Sonny says.

So September 25, 1952, here, for the world heavyweight title against flight patterson obviously yeah flight is 38 2 and 0 he'll be 55 8 and 1 floyd's a cool guy he is he's a badass so and his hair was so cool he had that oh yeah yeah yeah he looked like uh he looked like a singer or something you know what i mean yeah yeah he had like a real singer, he looked like a singer or something. You know what I mean? Yeah. Yeah, he had like a real singer look. He looked like he just took a suit off to do this fight. Yeah, just took a suit off where he was going. He got super dressed up. Yeah, totally.

He was all dressed up. I loved using him in Sega heavyweight boxing. Yeah, he was badass. He was so fast. Yeah, Floyd was real fast. He was slick, wasn't he? So they're saying that going into this, there's an article here in the newspaper saying that Sonny Liston could very well be heavyweight champion of the world. In view of this possibility and the fact that the youth of America are inclined to hero worship, it may be well to examine the background of the challenger.

Much of it was spelled out when Senator Estes Kavoffer, the Tennessee investigator, probed the underworld control of boxing. How much education did you get, asked Kavoffer. I didn't get any, is what Sonny Liston answered in the hearing. They said, you didn't go to school at all? And he said, no, sir. Too many kids.

In my family? In my fucking house? Yeah. Well, he said, how many kids were there and sonny replied well my father had 25 yeah so kaffir said 25 children exclamation point holy shit tell us about your early background he said uh were you born on a farm yes sir i was did you have to work to support these other 24 children that's right yeah. Yeah. That's what Sonny said. Don't ask him when he was born. Yeah, that's right.

I don't know. Some of them might have been born after me, before me. We're not sure yet. Yeah. He said, what did you do? And he said, pick cotton, is what he did. So, yeah, the testimony then said that Liston left Little Rock at the age of 13 with his mother to go to St. Louis. His mother had left his father.

They said, what did you do when you got to St. Louis? He said, well, my mother put me in school. Then after I got started going to school, the other kids seen me coming out of, I was such a large boy. Other kids would see me coming out of such small kids' room. And we talked about this before.

So they'd make fun of me and start laughing. And then I'd start fighting. I started playing a little hooky. And from hooky, I led to another thing. So I wound up in the wrong school. And he says the house of detention that was when he was 14 yeah so he said my mother got me out and then well i figure got me out and went right back to the same things he said and they said well you did what

and he said i went back to the same thing and wound up in a bigger house this time so yeah he talks about that uh they ask him do you know frank palermo and um he said yeah and they said do you think that people like this ought to remain in the sport of boxing and sunny says quote well i wouldn't pass judgment on no one this is really not my call to make is what he said if i say yes that gets me out of this too so uh maybe just ask somebody else he said i haven't been yes, that gets me out of this, too. So maybe just ask somebody else. He said, I haven't been perfect myself. That's exactly right. They said, do you recall that you were arrested in St. Louis on August 12th, 1959, questioned by some police officers concerning

your relations with a Mr. Sarkis, who's a labor leader whom Liston was a goon for? Strong-arming would probably be the point there. He said, quote, I don't recall the date. I was arrested sometime around there. I don't carry a pencil around to see how many times I was picked up. By the way, he was picked up for questioning more than 100 times in different crimes. More than 100 times. Wow. He said, I may have said anything they say. Where was this quote? I may have said

anything because they just keep grabbing me, picking me up and holding me overnight. If nobody come down to make a squawk to get me out, then they keep me. Then they finally let me go. Next day, back in. So what am I supposed to do? I said what they wanted me to say because who wanted to sleep on that cold steel all night long? Yeah. Yeah. Asked about his education. He said he still couldn't write.

And he said, if you write letters, would you dictate them to somebody else? And he said, yes, I would. And he said his wife does that for him. So here comes Floyd Patterson. Finally, by the way, Custom Auto said not to fight him. His manager said don't do it. And he did it anyway, Patterson. So once the bell rings here, it's pretty obvious that Sonny is too overpowering for Floyd. Floyd's a slick fighter and all that.

Sonny's just a brute, and he's got— He's strong. He's real strong. He's a bull in there. And Liston just kept coming and coming and overwhelming him. He gets him in the ropes, pounds him away. In the first round, he knocks Patterson down. Is that right?

Yeah, absolutely. And then finally, he knocks him out with a series of blows to the head, and it's a first-round knockout. Wow. First-round knockout for Sonny here. Knocks Floyd out. Yep, and he is 34 and one and now the heavyweight championship heavyweight champion of the world unbelievable yep first round too so there wasn't

even any bullshit this was i fucking destroyed him so that's got to be on the up and up because you don't floyd's not allowing that for any dollar figure that's not great for his career no that would cost a lot i would think oh god that would be insane amount of money to you yeah if he was you'd need it you would you would have to if he would if he was like retiring anyway maybe yeah so he has a speech prepared here um a bunch of his friends and everything said they would meet him at the philadelphia airport but when he got there it was just a handful of reporters and some pr staff none of his friends showed up what the fuck so a writer jack mckinney said quote i

watched sunny his eyes swept the whole scene you could feel a deflation the look of hurt in his eyes he had been deliberately snubbed philadelphia wanted nothing to do with him how about that yeah they're like we're not part of your shit. No, no. So that's very interesting. They said that Liston has been a target. His management says he's been a target of racially charged slurs. He says that he has been called a gorilla and a jungle beast in print. Oh, in print? In print.

They wrote that about him? Yeah, somebody wrote that. In the 50s? Sure. Larry Merchant, who, by the way, is the, you know, Larry Merchant. He's been around forever in boxing. He was a writer with the Philadelphia Daily News back then. And he said, a celebration for Philadelphia's first heavyweight champ is now in order.

And they said, Emily Post would probably recommend a ticker tape parade. For confetti, we can use torn up arrest warrants. That's just pretty funny right there. That's pretty good. He has been arrested a shitload of times. Why don't you, you know, he,

uh, he also said that in a, this proves the win over Patterson proves in a fair fight between good and evil. Evil must win is what Larry Merchant said. Evil. Wow. That's a little much, I think, here.

That's wild. I think he's a dick, but I don't think he's evil. He's not evil. Yeah. Well, he also has a reputation for bullying reporters, bullying waitresses, Sonny has. Okay. Maybe he is evil. It's everybody.

Yeah. He's a real dick. And after he won the title, that's when he moves permanently. Doesn't even keep a place anymore in Philly. Really? Totally gone. And he said, quote, I'd rather be a lamppost in Denver than the mayor of Philadelphia. Fuck Philly, he said.

So July 22, 1963, rematch with Floyd Patterson here. Yeah. Rematch, Patterson 38-3 coming in, 55-8-1 total, like we said. Patterson is a 4-1 underdog here. Underdog? If you watch the first fight, you go, Jesus, I don't know how he could have it. But Floyd is such a great fighter. He is, but it's the end of his career.

So this fight, though, it only lasts 2 minutes and 10 seconds. The fight lasts 4 seconds longer than the first fight. Oh, Floyd, you poor bastard. Yeah, he beats you up in two minutes, period. That's it. Oh, my God. The victory was loudly booed by the crowd. And Sonny said, the public is not with me.

I know it, but they'll have to swing along until somebody comes to beat me. Boy, did he make himself a villain. Yeah, he's the bad guy. I mean mean you get that's how the money's made but yeah i don't think he cares whether that's how the money's made or not i don't think this is a this isn't a muhammad ali thing i think this is more of a uh this may not be calculated it's just what he is how he is yeah it's just a personality he's uh patterson knocked down three times before it's finally waved off. So he just goes in and pummels him in two minutes and ten seconds. So he's 35 and one and the heavyweight champ of the world.

And in July 1963, he does an interview where he spends some time at Junior Village, a government orphanage, where he, quote, tried to fill. This is what they said. He tried to fill the vacuum in the lives of children, some of whom have never seen their mother. So, yeah, they said that in front of 800 people, including the. Oh, this is. Yeah, he does this. He was so into this, by the way, he was late for an 800-person dinner that included the vice president of the United States. He'd rather be with these kids.

He hung out there. He's probably more comfortable there. Christ. Everybody likes him there. Everybody hates him at this thing. We read the same books. Yeah. Yeah, none.

Because there are four. So he goes to the dinner. It's an 800-person affair. It's a huge, you know, black-tie affair. Vice president's there. And they talk to Sonny at this fight. And they said, Sonny, do you ever feel nervous before a fight? And he said, not as nervous as I am now.

I always feel that the other fellow should be nervous. So there ain't no use in both of us being nervous. He's nervous already. So why am I going to join in? He's nervous enough for both's nervous enough that's fucking funny that's really funny they said what do you think the future is for cassius clay and he says well i think he better stick to poetry oh it's all of his rhymes and shit and so um they said sonny did you ever play football and he said no it was a little too rough for me. I don't understand it yet.

I don't understand it yet? What are you, 35? That's probably the better answer. Yeah. Like when the football player gets the ball, one man will grab him and throw him down. Then the other 12 come pile on. What's the use of doing that? So they said, do you think it's enough to have one man against you? And he said, that's right.

Wow. He said, what about when you have the referee against you? And he says, well, as long as he can count up to 10, then he can man against you. And he said, that's right. Wow. He said, what about when you have the referee against you? And he says, well, as long as he can count up to 10, then he can't cheat you. Oh, yeah. He can, though. So they asked about, what do you think about having a boxing commissioner regulate the sport, like an overall boxing, like, czar? Just one guy.

Basically. The Kifafa Commission suggested that. He said, well, I feel that if he could find a man that's been in the field, it would be just fine. But if he just got a man that don't know anything about boxing, it would be just like a truck driver running a jet. OK, so he said they said no politicians to do this. And he said, no, no, not politicians. So he said that the referee doesn't always understand the psychology of the boxer when he's knocked out. And they said, what's your tactic when a man is down in the ring?

And Sonny says, well, I tell the guy my name in the center of the ring. And if he can't remember it when he gets knocked down, I feel he's in trouble. What? He doesn't know that he's done. Sometimes I hold up four fingers. How many fingers I got up? And if he says four, he's done. Sometimes I hold up four fingers, how many fingers I got up, and if he says four, he's all right. But if he says two, I know he can't see. So I feel the fight should be stopped.

Wow. Okay. This is Sonny's words? This is Sonny's words, yeah. That's really weird. He's such a weirdo, man. So they talk about the problems of the youth now. What do you think is the most important factor in helping keep boys out of trouble and he says well i feel it's the home i feel that the

mothers and fathers should know where the child is at all times and should have a deadline to get home at night you know a curfew right this is wild shit here parenting 101 yeah remember that it's 10 o'clock do you know where your children are thing? Yeah. Fucking, which leads to the best rap line of all time. It's 10 o'clock, ho, where the fuck you see that? That's my favorite line ever from Wu-Tang. It's my favorite line.

That was really said on the news during the Atlanta child murderers. That's why they said it. They'd say it all the time. Remember, it would just come on in between a commercial. It'd be like commercial, public service announcement thing, and it would say it's the time remember it would just come on in between a commercial it'd be like commercial public service announcement thing and it would say it's 10 o'clock do you know where your children are no they might be dead do you know that do you know that are they home maybe go look for them what do you think here so he said i feel it's the home they should have a deadline they said how many children were there in your family

and he goes to 25 and all they talk about cotton farming in arkansas and he says well that's when the trouble started when he moved to st louis life was too bright for my eye so i would find stuff before it got lost wow um yeah he said i would recommend more playground uh more playgrounds more sports and activities give them something to do to keep their minds occupied where they won't be idle. Talking about kids. Right. Sonny, but kids don't just go get into heroin. Adults teach them that and if you have more

playgrounds, it's just more places where adults can find them. True, true. But if they have shit to do, that's a factor. I see what he's saying. Keep them distracted. Kids who do activities and sports and shit are less likely to be the junkies in school. Not saying it doesn't happen, but they're less likely at the time. So they said, well, did they have playgrounds in St. Louis, like for you?

And he said, well, yes, they did. They had playgrounds, but it wasn't enough for all the kids. So they let the good kids go on it and kept us bad kids off it. Okay. Okay. He said it happens in the District of Columbia, too. It's like they say, one bad apple can spoil the whole bushel. So he said, well, they said here in the District of Columbia, we've had some debate that children, when they are wayward, should be punished by being spanked.

What do you think of that? What does Sonny think of spanking your children? He said, quote, well, let's take bets. What do you think, Jimmy? What do you think? He loves it. Yeah, okay. Well, I feel they should be spanked.

Yes. In that way, they wouldn't run over the teacher. In that way, they wouldn't run over the teacher. In other words, the teachers should do that. Yeah. So here's a whole article here from the Chicago Sun-Times. How the mob, quote, cut up Liston. Commission edict settles war among gangsters.

That's the headline here. And they have a picture of Blinky Palmaro. And they got Glickman here. And they say that apparently there had been a squabble over gangsters fighting over Liston's contract. This is my graft. No, this is my graft and grift. that apparently there had been a squabble over gangsters fighting over Liston's contract. Yeah. This is my graft. No, this is my graft and grift. So the prosecutors tell the Sun-Times here that an edict from the commission, the Supreme Council of Organized Crime, they're calling like the commission,

he said ended a 1961 quarrel between chicago and eastern gangsters over liston's earnings different cities mob mobs were fighting over his earnings what he's making yeah they haggled over the winnings of him when he was a heavyweight contender here um his former manager barone managed liston from 58 to 61 and then cats is obviously his manager now and they said a justice for the uh spokesman for the Justice Department emphasized that the government has no evidence that Liston himself or Katz and Nylon ever split purses with the gangsters. But the Federal Commission says we actually have proof of this. We know what happened. They said that Liston, the power of the commission over boxing was traced by the Federal Bureau of Investigation and a probe of Barone's management of Liston while working on a California extortion case.

They said that the California shakedown scheme developed after the commission, meaning mafia, by the way, granted Eastern mobsters the right to muscle in on purses of fighters on the West Coast. They said you're allowed to do this now. They negotiated it, right. So they said both the investigations, the government sources said, showed the way the commission functions to settle the everlasting fights between these underworld characters here. So they said the commission at the highest council, as the highest council of the crime brotherhood,

gangsters call La Cosa Nostra. This is the first. I mean, this is this early 60s, for Christ's sake. This is the first 1963. This is so they said the commission has the final say when hoodlums fall out over which mob shall control what racket the FBI found. Holy shit. So according to the government, the commission is composed of mob chiefs from Chicago and eight other cities. The Chicago boss, Momo Salvatore, and also, well, that's Salvatore Giancana.

It's Giancana. It's fucking, they call him Momo, has been identified as one of the Midwest gangsters on the commission. They were right. The 61 dispute over Liston's contract, federal investigators said, brought Giancana into the conflict with three other men, Angelo Bruno of Philly, who I know about him too,

and I've read his kid's book, actually, and also Tommy Three Finger Brown Puchese. That's a gangster. Tommy Puchese, Three Finger Brown brown and of course carlo gambino was also involved in this the head of the gambino family and the head of the whole commission here so the wow um they eventually ruled against giancana for uh saying that you know he was wrong in the whole deal at the start the government found four lesser gangland figures were involved in the bickering over his earnings.

But they said the more they went into it, they noticed more. The FBI investigation disclosed that four people held shares of his contract from 58 to 61 and that Carbo, the one guy, was convicted in the California boxing extortion case and is serving a 25-year prison term. Wow. And in the same case, a 15 year prison sentence was imposed upon Blinky Palmaro. So yeah. So, or Palermo Palmaro.

So, uh, it's, it's a fucking mess essentially is what's going on here. This is a whole expose in the paper about all this shit. Um, so now as far as the Sonny's concerned here, I i mean how does this affect him he just says i'm a boxer you know what i mean they go into all of these loans that these gangsters made to each

other and to with this much interest and that much that interest they really they really get a lot into that um one guy here uh glick, said he regrets ever getting into boxing. He said, I probably am wrong and I paid for it. He said that boxing is ruining his manufacturing business. He has an awning manufacturing business in Chicago. He says it's totally ruining it. He said, my reputation is

gone. Everybody thinks I'm a thief and a hoodlum and a crook. Wow. So that's how that goes. Interesting. So the Liston Clay here now this is and he's he's still cashless clay hasn't even thought of muhammad ali yet so he's fighting uh here and in sports by the way that's how it works if someone in sports changes their name they are this name until they change their name and then at that moment their stats are for kareem abdul jabbar yeah yeah he's lou alcindor at ucla and it's not you're not you know saying that to be a dick you're saying that because that's who he was at the time and then once he changed his name

then he's kareem abdul jabbar from then on so that's how it works in sports because it's just record keeping it's not a matter of anything else so they're talking about will he fight cassius clay at the time? So they said Liston had defeated eight of the top 10 ranked contenders in the world, seven of which by knockout. So yeah, a guy named Harry Cooper, who's the British champion, he said he'd be interested in the title fight if Clay wins, but he's not going to get in the ring with Liston. He won't fight him. Nope. He said Cooper's manager, Jim Wick said, we don't even want to meet Liston walking down the same street. What does that mean?

They're afraid of him? I don't know if they're afraid of him or they think that he's like scum and beneath them. And they won't deal with that. So, yeah, a boxing promoter named Harold Conrad said, people talked about Mike Tyson before he got beat, but Liston was more ferocious, more indestructible. When Sonny gave you the evil eye, I don't care who you were, you shrunk to two feet tall.

You knew what he meant, yeah. Yeah. Another guy wrote in Sports Illustrated, Liston's arms are massively muscled. The left jab is more than a jab. It hits with true shock power. It never occurred to Liston that he might lose a fight. That's pretty impressive.

Another guy, a trainer, Johnny Taco or Tocho T-O-C-C-O It's probably Toco Taco sounds funny though, I like that He's a trainer who's worked with Foreman and Mike Tyson as well as Sonny Liston and he said out of the three, Liston was the hardest hitter

and they thought, a lot of boxing writers thought that Liston could ruin boxing because no one's going to beat him ever, and he's just going to destroy it. It's fucking fascinating how big of a deal he was and how fucking in charge he was and undisputed, literally undisputed. Everybody was afraid of him. And then he became what he became. That's so crazy.

And he's getting very famous. Esquire magazine caused a controversy by putting him on the December 1963 cover wearing a fucking Santa hat. And it's gorgeous, Jimmy. You've got to roll your chair over and see this. Look at him. What? It's awesome. Oh, he even rocks an Italian mustache.

Look at him. Yeah, yeah, yeah. He's got like a little gangster mustache. He's got a Santaanta hat on that is awesome i'm gonna get that scariest santa ever i'm gonna get that and frame it man that's awesome that santa takes the presents yeah he comes in and goes give me all your presents walks out with like a small bicycle and shit so um liston was never able to escape being labeled as the personification of everything that was unseemly in the sport of boxing.

That's what he had. But he says, my criminality's in the past. That has nothing to do with today. I haven't been arrested in like a year and a half, man. Come on. I'm doing great. Oh, man. He said that he hates the boxing writers as well.

He said they always portray me as an ignorant thug and a bully. And he says that he was typically described in thinly veiled racist terms, he said, too. Like they call him a gorilla and say that he has hands like big bananas. Those are not thinly veiled. That's not thinly veiled. That's pretty in your face. They might as well be holding an attack dog back from biting you in the ass while it tries to. They called you a primate, sir. That's not good.

That is wild. Liston here, James Baldwin gets his back, though, the author. James Baldwin, he said he understood, understands Liston maybe better than anyone in the press and sympathized with him. He said, quote, Liston was the big Negro in every white man's hallway. That's what James Baldwin said. So that means he's scaring white people because white people think of him as like, you know, that's that's what's coming in their house. This big, scary guy. So he said that another guy here, a biographer of Ali, said he had never gotten a break and he was never going to give one, talking about Sonny Liston as well. Now, Clay at this point is 22 years old.

Right. We know that for sure. We don't know how old Liston is here, obviously. Louisville makes terrific birth certificates and they keep track of everything. Yeah, they keep track of it all. We know everything about it. He won the gold medal for the light heavyweight gold

medal at the 1960 Olympics. He's fast as fuck, but he's considered to be weak. He's considered to be kind of a tall, thin guy. Not a speed guy who if Liston actually hits him, he's going to murder him. That's the way it looked like.

So Clay also had been knocked down by a guy named Sonny Banks, who's a journeyman early in his career. And he had got a decision in his last couple fights against a guy named Doug Jones and was knocked down by a left hook at the end of round four against Henry Cooper, the British guy. So Clay was clearly out on his feet in the corner between rounds while Angelo Dundee stalled for time to allow him to recover. This was early on in his career. He might not have got to that point. So he rallied to win the fight in the next round, but they said that based on the fact that nobodies are knocking him down and hurting him, Liston's's gonna fucking kill him basically so um clay and the reporters hated fucking ali too they hated him nightmare fight

for writers yeah um they they tried to predict that they said it will last longer than the patterson fight it should last almost the entire first round he said but liston should he should be able to go around with Liston here. He said, the only thing, Clay, this is Jim Murray in the Los Angeles Times, the only thing at which Clay can beat Liston is reading the dictionary. I mean, a lot of people can beat him at that.

And then he goes on to say that everybody hates both these guys, and we're going to put them in the ring. He said, quote, this will be the most popular fight since Hitler and Stalin. 180 million Americans rooting for a double knockout. That's hilarious, man. That's how much Ali was hated? That's crazy. Yeah, because he had a huge mouth and talked all sorts of shit.

So he, by the way, as it goes up to the fight, Clay is a 7-1 underdog. Wow. And out of the 46 sportswriters who attended the fight, 43 picked Liston to win by knockout. Is that right? And that was the way it was going. 43 agreed that one of them's a dick. One of these guys is an asshole. that one of them's a dick.

One of these guys is an asshole. Now, the thing that we don't understand here or that people don't understand is Liston's claiming to be only 32 years old during this fight. Oh. He's using the 1932 birth date. Uh-huh. So he might be more like, you know, 38.

36. 36. So that's, for a fighter, that's pushing it. That's tremendous disadvantage to be older. Fuck yeah. That's, you know, and we don pushing it. That's tremendous a disadvantage to be older. Fuck yeah, that's, you know, and we don't even know, who knows how old he is. Like we said, we went over all that, we never found shit. No fucking idea. Yeah.

In training for the fight, he injured his left shoulder and was in pain striking the heavy bag. He resorted to heavy icing and ultrasound therapy after each training session. He tore his rotator cuff probably or something. So Liston actually hasn't been in the ring much also in the last few years. He's been knocking guys out quickly, and there have been big fights that have big buildups for them. So he hasn't really been boxing, and he's a little rusty. Liston had fought three times and won all of them with first-round knockouts between 61 and this fight. So he fought a total of over six minutes in 35 months.

Wow. Six minutes in 35 months. In three years. Yeah. So he's not exactly sharp, actually. Everybody says that Clay is too much of a light heavyweight. He's too fast. He's a light puncher.

Doesn't really take a punch or fight inside at all like a heavyweight needs to. He's got speed is what it is here, is all they're saying. That's all he can do. The New York Journal American, their columnist said this, quote, Clay doesn't fight like the valid heavyweight he is.

He seldom sets and misses a lot. In a way, Clay is a freak. He's a bantamweight who weighs more than 200 pounds. Okay. That's kind of a good way of describing him. He fights like a good light fighter. Yeah. So Liston trained minimally for the fight,

believing that he's going to knock Clay out in the first two rounds and didn't really need to train that hard for it. Okay. And he's in pain when he does train. Yeah. Yeah. clay out in the first two rounds and didn't really need to train that hard for it okay and andy is in pain when he does train so yeah yeah he usually ran five miles a day but for this fight he only ran one mile a day and he reportedly ate hot dogs and drank beer the whole time as well you're out of fucking mind sir and they said there was just a revolving door of prostitutes going to the training camp too so he's he's drinking, eating, not running, and fucking.

That's what he's doing, which is not how you get ready for a fight. It is not. Those are all bad ways that you will lose. No shit, especially if you're fucking fighting Ali. So he began, Ali begins taunting and provoking Liston. As soon as this comes in, he bought a bus, uh, Clay does, and had it written on the side, quote, Liston must go in eight. Yeah.

So on the day of the contract signing, he drove this bus to Sonny's house in Denver. Okay. To his house. I'm at least the best troll that ever lived. Waking the champion up at 3 o'clock in the morning. Sonny is in bed with his wife. He brought the press with him, too. Obviously, Ali does.

And he's shouting at 3 a.m., come on out of there. I'm going to whoop you now. Apparently, Liston had just moved into kind of a real upper scaly neighborhood and the neighbors were fucking pissed real pissed this is not the type of shit that they feel like they pay for uh so clay would also take his entourage in the bus to the site in surfside florida where liston was training and repeatedly called him a big, ugly bear. His nickname is Big Bear, Sonny. So he called him the Big Ugly Bear repeatedly. Now, Liston's getting pissed off at this.

He's about had it with this shit. He's poking the bear, that's for sure. He really is. Ali said at one point, after the fight, I'm going to build myself a pretty home and use him as a bearskin rug. Liston even smells like a bear. I'm going to give him to the local zoo after I whoop him. If Sonny Liston whoops me, I'll kiss his feet in the ring, crawl out of the ring on my knees, tell him he's the greatest, then catch the next jet out of the country. Wow, that is some shit.

Clay insisted that he'd knock Liston out in eight rounds. That's what he's going to do. But he said that he's pretty good at that, everybody said. In the end of his career, all of the people around him said that he was pretty good at picking out rounds when he was going to knock a guy out. Muhammad Ali was? Yeah. One guy said that he predicted at the exact round he would beat a guy 12 different times. Is that right? Yeah. In his autobiography or his biography it says that that's that's either

genius and amazing or uh that's not good for boxing yeah no shit man so here is a way the New Republic, the editor Murray Kempton, wrote it like this. Okay. How the kind of mainstream America is starting to root for Liston here over him. And they said, quote, Liston used to be a hoodlum. Now he is our cop. He was the big Negro we pay to keep sassy Negroes in line. Oh, God, I hate the writing. Yeah. Yeah. Well, I hate the right. Yeah.

Yeah. Well, I think the New Republic was a black magazine, if I'm not mistaken. Yes, I think. Well, that's what they black people wanted to be called Negroes at that time. And then later on, it's, you know, changes over time. But I think an insult. Yeah, that was the politically correct, I think, term at that point. Yeah.

Which was strange. But strange. He said that it's been widely stated that Clay's antics were deliberate form of psychological warfare, trying to unsettle Liston. Clay said, if Liston wasn't thinking nothing but killing me, he wasn't thinking fighting. You've got to think fight.

Liston is an angry man and he can't afford to be angry fighting Clay. That's what Joe Lewis said. So yeah, he said this might work. They also said that Liston thought because Clay was doing this, this was a sign that Clay was terrified of him. Yeah, that's a good point. Yeah, he's like, this means he's scared.

Clay later said, I knew that Liston, overconfident that he was, was never going to train to fight me more than two rounds. He couldn't see nothing in me but mouth. And Clay, though, prepares really hard, studies films of Liston, detecting that Liston telegraphs his punches with eye movements, shit like that. So he's taking this very seriously, very seriously. 1963, he tells the press, quote, I'm the world's greatest. This is Ali, of course.

He said that. This is one of the first times he said this, by the way, in a public thing. He told the newspaper he'll fall in eight to show that I'm great. But if he keeps talking that jive, he'll go in five. Muhammad Ali was so good. It was. And if he makes me sore, it will end in four. Okay.

And then he said, if he wants to run, we'll end it in one. He's going down the line. He was a goddamn, you know, he idolized Gorgeous George. He thought that, you know, wrestling promos are what he's doing. So, Clay, he's making the cross-country things in his bus. He's going back and forth, stalking, listing Jesus Christ. He,

that he, in his party here, stalking is his brother, Rudolph, a guy named Clay Tyson, who's a comedian at the time. And then a few bodyguards and a personal photographer. Clay says that he needs a bodyguard to protect him from unfriendly fans.

He said, everywhere I go, someone tries to take a punch at me because they say they can hit the Clay says that he needs a bodyguard to protect him from unfriendly fans. He said, everywhere I go, someone tries to take a punch at me because they say they can hit the greatest, Cassius Clay. So, yeah. So he has the world's greatest on his bus and everything like that. One time here, Clay here foresees a $15 million gate for the fight with 22% of that going to him. Wow. I'm talking about the fight here. He would only talk about one thing, though, Sonny Liston, in this article.

He says that Liston was ugly, even as a baby. That's what he said. He was an ugly baby. Yeah. He says, quote, once when Sonny was a baby, his mother took him on a train trip and the waiter on the train came around to serve breakfast she ordered some cereal and milk when the waiter asked if she uh didn't want some bananas she said no uh i mean for the monkey the waiter said pointing at baby liston that's cassius clay's sorry that's his anecdote there yeah

that is fucking amazing jesus christ he keeps calling him too ugly to be champion yeah um he's like he's too i can't be champion he's too ugly at one point he said ali, he's too ugly to be world's champion. I'm pretty as a girl. That's fucking amazing here. That is amazing. I like that a lot. So he then goes on to say, Joe Lewis said, I just came along for a free ride.

Apparently, Joe Lewis is hanging out with Liston and his wife here. Yeah. He said he's just hanging out with Liston and his wife here. He's just hanging out. He's not really doing anything. Liston, they said he's all dressed in a gray suit looking all sharp. He's trying to be professional now and he predicts he's going to win. He predicted that

he would last longer. Joe Lewis said Clay will last longer than Floyd Patterson, but obviously it's not going to be, you know, very, very much longer. He said Clay has a better defensive style and moves better. I don't think he can beat Sonny, but anytime two big men meet in the ring, anything can happen. That's true. That's right.

He said that he was, Liston said he was prepared to go 30 rounds, 15 running after him and 15 fighting him. Wow. That's what he said. So they have police dogs that routed Cassius Clay from in front of Sonny Liston's home. The police had to bring dogs out to get Clay away from the house with his bus. Okay. Seven police cars surrounded the bus, which was decorated with, you know, Sonny must go and ate and all that kind of shit. Listen, Garb. Yeah. Quote in the doorway of his home, Liston watched without any show of emotion.

Stone faced. Stood there watching. A big police dog was within inches of Clay as the number one contender was told to move on right away or be taken in. And Clay left promptly. So it is this time that the Miami Herald publishes an article quoting Cassius Clay Sr. He's a junior, by the way. Is that right? Yeah, didn't know that.

That his son had joined the Muslims when he was 18, and Clay said they have been hammering at him ever since. He's so confused now that he doesn't even know where he's at. He said that his youngest son, Rudy Clay, also joined and he said, quote, this is dad, quote, they ruined my two boys. Oh. He said Muslims tell my boys to hate white people, to hate women, to hate their mother. He said, I don't care what my father said. This is Clay now.

This is Mohammed. He said, I don't care what my father said. I'm here training for a fight and that's all I'm going to say. So he doesn't have anything to say about his dad. That's the only thing, the only person here. So, yeah, they said that as the story started to spread, promoters became uneasy. The main promoter threatened to cancel the fight

unless Clay publicly disavowed the Nation of Islam, and he said he wouldn't. He said, no, fuck yourself. So a compromise was reached when Malcolm X, who was hanging out with Ali at the time, here, had been censured by the

Nation of Islam, banned from speaking to the press and suspended from all official Nation of Islam roles and duties, and agreed to keep a low profile here for the night of the fight when he said he would join Clay's entourage as a spiritual advisor and view the fight from a ringside seat. For spiritual reasons, not because it's like the biggest event in the last 40 years. So Clay said he would not definitively link himself with the Nation of Islam until after the fight, which then he says, yes, he is involved in all

that kind of thing. So according to Malcolm X, Muhammad Ali had converted to Islam and joined the Nation of Islam several years prior to the fight, but kept his religion affiliation a secret up until the fight. At the weigh-in, here for this weigh-in,

I love the weigh-ins when they're fun like this. Most of the time they're boring, but Ali comes in and he knows how to do a weigh-in. I love the weigh-ins when they're fun like this. Most of the time they're boring, but Ali comes in and he knows how to do a weigh-in. He entered the room wearing a denim jacket with the words bear hunting on the back of it. Yeah. And carrying an African walking stick. Oh, God damn it.

He began to wave the stick, screaming, I'm the champ. Tell Sonny I'm here. Bring that big ugly bear on. He was going off. He said, someone's going to die at ringside tonight. You're scared, chump. That's what he's yelling and fucking.

It's going crazy here. All sorts of pandemonium. Ali is fined $2,500 by the commission for his favor, even though they're selling more tickets, as far as everybody knows here. favor, even though they're selling more tickets as far as everybody knows here. They also say he worked himself into such a frenzy that he registered 120 heartbeats a minute, more than twice its normal rate,

and his blood pressure was 200 over 100. Ali at the end of it. Worked himself up into a fervor here. The chief physician of the Miami Boxing Commission determined that he was emotionally unbalanced, scared to death, and liable to crack up before he enters the ring. Ali?

Ali. He said if Ali's blood pressure didn't return to normal, they'd have to cancel the fight. Okay. Wow. So many others thought that this meant he was scared as well here. An hour later, his blood pressure was fine, his pulse was fine, and he said, Liston's not afraid of me, but he's afraid I'm a, he's afraid of a nut.

So he's trying to be nuts. That's what he said. So February 25th, 1964, Ali fucking goddamn, uh, Sonny Liston here. Ali is 19 and O coming into this fight, 19 and O. So pretty lack of lackluster for the first couple rounds. They're feeling each other out a lot. Ali starts to take control of the fight in the third round, though.

About 30 seconds into the round, he starts listing up with combinations. You can see some bruising under Liston's eye. He's got a cut on his left eye, bruising on the right eye. He eventually will need eight stitches to close that bad boy up, by the way. At one point, Liston was rocked and driven to the ropes and was trying to cover up.

The broadcaster, Ringside, said this could be the upset of the century, and he described it like this. Cassius hit Liston with a one-two combination, a jab followed by a straight right. Cassius pulled the jab back, and there was a mouse underneath sunny's right eye so you got him good then he pulled the back uh then he pulled the right back and there was a gash underneath the other eye it was like the armor plate of a battleship being pierced i said to myself my god cassius clay is winning the fight so liston got pissed off at that point and rallied at the end of the round. They said Clay seemed tired from attacking him so much. So the Liston here, as the round ended, Clay shouted him, you big sucker, I got you now.

And then sitting on stools, Liston was breathing heavily in between the rounds and working on his cut. During the fourth round, Ali just kind of danced around, keeping his distance. Liston appeared to be the aggressor and kind of won the fight. Joe Lewis at ringside said it's looking good for Sonny Liston. However, Clay gets back to the corner. He starts complaining that there's something burning in his eyes and he can't see. Oh?

He said, I didn't know what the heck was going on. Angelo Dundee, Clay's trainer, recalls on a special 25 years later, he said, quote, cut the gloves off. I want to prove to the world there's dirty work afoot. And I said, whoa, whoa, back up, baby. Come on. This is for the title. This is the Big Apple. What do you do?

And sit down. Talking to Ali here. He said, so I get him down. I get the sponge and I pour the water into his eyes, trying to cleanse whatever's in there. But before I did that, I put my pinky in his eye, and I put it to my eye. It burned like hell. There was something caustic in both eyes. Oh, shit.

Saying he's putting something on his gloves. Pepper sauce or something? Yeah. Yeah. So the referee, who was walking toward Clay's corner here uh the referee said that clay was seconds from being disqualified and he had to get out of the fucking corner and um so he said oh fine and uh he demanded that the fight be stopped and dundee fearing the fight might be stopped uh he said fucking you know no let's just do this let's just do this so it's a big mess man um in terms of this

clay later said he could only see a faint shadow of liston during most of the round but by circling and moving he managed to avoid him and survive so in the sixth round his sight was all cleared up and he was ready to go he was landing combinations all over the place he said uh cassius said i got back to my stool at the end of the sixth round and under me i could hear the press like they had gone wild. I twisted around and hollered to the reporters, I'm going to upset the world. So here we go. There are two basic narratives about what happened in Liston's corner here.

According to an Ali biographer, Liston told his corner men, that's it. This supposedly rallied Liston's handlers, who thought that he was finally going to be angry enough to win. Like, now I'm pissed off. Now he's going to win. But Liston really meant that he was through fighting. And he spit out his mouth guard and everything, and he was done. So that's Ali's side. Now, a Liston biographer said that Liston's shoulder was essentially paralyzed by the end of the sixth round, and his corner made the decision to end the fight despite Sonny's protests. So Liston spit out his mouth guard in disgust, still not believing that Clay was the better fighter, and he was getting beat here. So as the bell sounded for the seventh round, Clay was the first to notice that Liston had spit out his mouth guard.

Clay moved to the middle of the ring with his arms raised, dancing, the alley shuffle. We all know what that is. And Howard Cosell, broadcasting ringside, said, wait a minute, wait a minute, Sonny Liston's not coming out. So Liston does not answer the bell for the seventh round. Clay is declared the winner by technical knockout. Wow. So he became the first world champion since Jess Willard

to retire on his stool during a heavyweight title fight. Holy shit, really? Liston becomes the first guy. Yep. That's fucking wild. At that point, the bout was even on official scorecards of the referee and two of the judges, too. So it wasn't over. Clay quickly ran to the ropes and said, eat your words to all the sports writers.

He's going off, eat your words. And he's yelling, I'm the greatest. I shook up the world, shocked the world. I'm the king of the world. He's hanging off the front of the boat. He's doing everything. I'm the best there ever was. I'm the best there ever was.

Clay was persuaded to have the post-fight press conference, which he didn't want to have for some reason. I think he would want that. He called the writers hypocrites and said, look at me, not a mark on me. I could never be an underdog. I'm too great. Hail the champion.

Now, a lot of people, there's a lot of theories that a substance used on Liston's cuts by Joe Polino, his cut man, may have inadvertently caused the irritation that blinded Clay in round four. They said that Joe Polino had used Mansell's solution on that cut, Angelo Dundee said. Now, what had happened was

that probably the kid put his forehead leaning on the guy because Liston was starting to wear with those body shots, and my kid sweating profusely it went into both of his eyes. That makes perfect sense. That makes perfect sense. Two days after the fight.

Why would you use something that makes somebody, that's an irritant to eyes, why would you put that on somebody's eyes? That makes no sense. I guess above the eyes, I don't know. I guess it's more important to close the cut. I don't know if it works. I guess it's more important to close the cut. I don't know if it works. So two days after the fight, a heavyweight contender named Eddie Mocken said he believed that Liston's handlers made deliberate use of illegal medication to temporarily blind Clay.

He said the same thing happened to me when I fought Liston in 1960. He said, I thought my eyes would burn out of my head and Liston seemed to know it would happen. So apparently he might rub it like up on top of his head. So away from his eyes. Oh. thing when he started screaming and let liston know it had worked clay panicked i didn't do that i'm more of a seasoned pro and i hit it from liston he still won the fight and you lost your fight so who's the fuck are you talking about who's the better guy here yeah who handled it best yeah dipshit jesus um now liston said he quit the fight because of his shoulder and um you know so there's a lot of speculation was Was that bullshit? Is he just is he throwing the fight? Whatever. Liston told broadcasters that he hurt his shoulder in the first round. And they later on, the physician for the Miami Beach Boxing Commission diagnosed him with a torn tendon in his left shoulder. his book, he said the shoulder was all BS. We had no return bout clause with Clay.

And if you say your guy just quit, who's going to get a return bout? We cooked up that shoulder thing on the spot. Yeah. So that's from a manager working with this. Sports Illustrated writer said that Liston's shoulder injury was legitimate. He cited Liston's inability to lift his arm. He said there was no doubt that Liston's arm was damaged. In the sixth round, he carried it at belt level, so it was of no help in warding off the right crosses,

with which Clay probed at the cut under his left eye. He held it low. They also said he cited medical evidence. He said a team of eight doctors inspected Liston's arm at St. Francis Hospital in Miami Beach and agreed it was too badly damaged for liston to continue fighting the torn tendon had bled down into the mass of the biceps swelling and numbing the arm so these findings were confirmed also when a formal investigation immediately after the fight by the florida state attorney here uh who noted that there was little doubt that Liston went into the fight with a sore or lame shoulder.

So, yeah, they said that that's the way it is. And Ali also said in 1975 that that fight was his toughest ever. Yeah. As I would imagine so. So he wins it all, Ali, WBA, WBC, world heavyweight champion. And so Sonny's 35 and 2 now and uh now they're starting to be allegations of a fix though right was the fix in so arthur daly of the new york times said quote when a fight ends in the fashion that one did uh with the unbeatable monster remaining in

his corner suspicions of larceny are immediately aroused they are not helped by the fact that liston an ex-convict was sponsored by mobsters from the start of his career they said though for the larceny theory to be valid however there'd have to be an overwhelming reason for it the prospects of a betting coup can be dismissed because the eight to one odds in liston's favor never never varied more than a point which that's how you can tell that's how they tell if the fix is and they look at the betting and if there's a shitload of betting in the last couple days the opposite way of where the most of the money is and the odds haven't changed when that starts that means that some people know the fix is in so um this is an unfailing barometer of hanky-panky some guy said here what would liston have gained by throwing the fight? The heavyweight championship's the most valuable commodity in the world of sports,

and not even a man of Liston's criminal background would willingly toss it away. It also brought him an aura of respectability such as he had never known before. So after a month-long investigation, the Florida state attorney said there was no evidence to support claims of a fix, and the United States Senate subcommittee conducted hearings three months later and found no evidence of a fix as well. Wow. Holy shit, man. Congressional hearings.

Over this. Over this. So they don't know. Now, documents were released in 2014 under the Freedom of Information Act, which showed the FBI suspected the fight may have been fixed by Ash Resnick, a Las Vegas figure tied to organized crime, enlisted. The documents show no evidence that Ali was in on the scheme or that he knew about it, and nothing suggests the Bureau ever corroborated the suspicions it investigated.

The memos were addressed directly to J. Edgar Hoover, the head of the FBI, obviously, while he was putting his makeup on at night. While he was taking off his fishnets. Yeah, while he was undoing his fishnets. Let me read this real quick. The memo, dated May 24, 1966, is called The Most Tantalizing Evidence, details an interview with a Houston gambler named Barnett Majids who described to agents his discussions with Resnick before the first Clay Liston fight.

They said on one occasion, Resnick introduced Majids and Sonny Liston at the Thunderbird, one of the Las Vegas hotel's organized crime controlled, obviously. About a week before the Liston and Ali fight in Miami, Resnick called and invited Magis and his wife for two weeks in Florida on Resnick. Magis' wife was not interested in going, but Magis decided to go along, and Resnick called and invited Majes and his wife for two weeks in Florida on Resnick. Majed's wife was not interested in going, but Majed decided to go along, and Resnick was going to send him a ticket. Two or three days before the fight, Majed called Resnick

at the Fountain Blue Hotel in Miami, saying he could not come. On this call, he asked Resnick who he liked in the fight, and Resnick said that Liston would not play out in the second round. Resnick suggested he wait until just before the fight to place any bets because the odds may come down so at about noon the day of the fight magids reached resnick by phone uh this time resnick said for him not to make any bets but just go watch the fight on pay tv and he would know why and that he couldn't talk

any further more further about it at the time. Oh, well, that's questionable as fuck. Sounds very questionable. Madgett's did not see go see the fight on TV and immediately realized that Resnick knew that Liston was going to lose. A week later, there was an article in Sports Illustrated writing up Resnick as a big loser because of his backing of Liston. So they said people in the know in Vegas told Madgett's that Resnick and Liston both reportedly made one million dollars betting over one million betting against Liston on the fight and that the magazine article was a cover for this. Wow. OK. The cover of the article there.

I guess they had the cover of the Esquire thing. A guy from the Las Vegas Review Journal said that he had more holes on the left side than the Cubs infield. So, an anti-Cub shot. He was writing for, I think, a Chicago. That sucks. Yeah. So, he said, here, then, is the most titillating part of the Washington Times story. At about noon on the day of the fight, Barnett Madgetts reached Resnick again by phone.

And this time Resnick said for him to not make any bets, but just go watch the fight and you would know why. This was after the weigh in when Ali went berserk and Sonny just burped up a couple of hot dogs. So, yeah, they're talking about all this. Now, Clay, February 24th, 64, he announces that he is officially a member of the Nation of Islam. He says here, it was, you know, it was been kind of rumored like we talked about. He said, I began worshiping this way five years ago when I heard a fellow named Elijah Muhammad on the radio talking about the virtues of the Islam religion. I also listened to his ministers. No one could prove could prove him or them wrong. So I decided to join.

He started going by Cassius X. It was his first name. Right. And they adopt X as a last name because they don't want to obviously have the government names. On March 1st, 1964, Ed Sullivan said on the Ed Sullivan Show, I saw the Liston Clay fight. This was a stinker of all time. I swear the Beatles could beat the two of them. No kidding.

I'd love to see that fight. Paul McCartney running for his life as Sonny Liston takes fucking huge punches at him. That would be amazing. The good thing is that three of the four don't have much to lose in the face. That's true. Ringo is, who cares? Boy, oh boy, is that a hideous man. That's a hideous man.

Absolutely. So, yeah, they talk about all that. March 11th, 1964. You know, Ali's becoming the most famous guy in the world. He's talking about what he's doing religiously. Sonny is arrested on four counts. Oh, good, Sonny. Well done.

He's doing a great job here. He's arrested by a traffic officer who said he was driving 76 in a 30. What? That's a lot in a 30. That's like through a neighborhood. 76. Holy shit. They said that patrolman James Snyder said after stopping liston's cadillac

he found in a search of liston that he was carrying a seven shot 22 caliber pistol with six cartridges and an empty shell where'd that one go sonny what the fuck man um this cop said he had to call another patrol car for help in handcuffing Liston because he was enormous. He said when he became belligerent, he was taken in handcuffs to police headquarters. The cop said when he charged, he charged Liston with reckless and careless driving, speeding, carrying concealed weapon, and driving without a valid Colorado operator's license. He was booked at jail but got immediate release posting a $300 bond. He was booked at jail but got immediate release posting a $300 bond. He said that the officer, by the way, who's 5'10", 185, he said he didn't know Liston was who he was until I got down to headquarters.

And one of the officers who knew him said, hey, Sonny. Hello. Somebody arrested him before. Yeah. Yeah. Someone that's arrested him or, you know, who knows. So this cop also said that another person in Liston's car was not taken into custody, and that guy drove his car away. They said they don't know his identity.

So the arrest took place on East 17th Avenue within a mile of his residence in East Denver. So he said that Liston offered no resistance getting into his patrol car, but on the trip down to the station, began to argue, and that's when I called for another car. I said I had a customer that was beginning to get pretty rough. With the help of the other officer, he said that he put handcuffs on Liston. He was taking him without handcuffs to the police station. Out of his mind. He was like, well, let's just make a deal here. Wow. I had a gun with me, but that's the least deadly weapon that you're controlling right now.

That's what you got going on. Now, if you think that's shocking, there's also come on down to Jerry's nightclub right below that. In Denver? Jerry's nightclub where you can dance. And he just says this. They're here. They're wonderful. The vanguards.

You'll love them. That gives us nothing that's it come on down fuckers so come find out what a vanguard is keep an eye out for that uh march 12 64 they're talking about liston could face up to 10 years in prison here oh wow for be doing all this shit with the pistol in his pocket and all this type of deal here um so his publicity manager sued him in chicago for back pay at this point too so pr isn't going to work for him he um we know he's been serving lots of time everywhere the detective said officers were trying to determine whether a concealed weapon charge filed against liston constitutes a felony under a colorado law

passed by the legislature in 63 the law provides felony charges may be filed against a convicted felon found to be carrying a weapon, which is standard now. Conviction carries a two- to ten-year term. So, you know, they talk about all his different shots in jail here. They also say that Liston, this is the PR guy, said that Liston owes him $150,000. It was a lot of money back then and now. As a share of Liston's earnings through October 63, the court allowed Katz to attach up to $100,000 of any assets Liston might have in New York. So another person suing him alleging that he owes them $116,000 in back pay.

My God. Yes. So this is a lot, man. An awful lot going on for him. So he's certainly in a lot of trouble here. So June 13th, 1964, he's arrested again. What? Yes.

Arrested for speeding again. It's the second time in like a month that he's been arrested for speeding. So he's not doing well at all. And then next up, he is going to have his rematch with Ali, which is maybe the most famous fight of all time. It's the most iconic picture of all time. And that will be for part three. We'll talk about that, the controversy. There is crazy crime next week

absolutely great casino gunplay everybody that's crazy you don't hear about that kind of shit so anyway that is this part of of sonny liston and um he's a fucking menace so far oh boy god does he finish strong too holy shit how do you how do you get arrested so many times in your career i don't understand it constantly it's fucking constant it's fucking constant he doesn't care he's just like no this is what i do i get arrested sometimes so and granted a lot of them are are such minimal minimal charges but a felon with a concealed weapon is not minimal at all no and if you're a felon and you have a concealed concealed weapon, why are you driving 76 and a 30? That might draw some attention.

No. Like, what are we doing here? Yeah. You're clearly going to someone's going to pull you over and ask a couple of questions. So stay tuned for part three where we have a bunch of crazy crime, Christmas crime. We have some good Christmas crime. We have some good Christmas crime. We have some gunplay. We have lots of crazy stuff here.

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Patreon.com slash Crime and Sports is where you get all of the bonus materials. And we have a ton there. Anybody $5 or above, you get the whole back catalog of bonus stuff. It's almost 200 episodes, and you get new ones every other week, two new ones, one crime and sports, one small town murder,

and you get it all this week, which you're going to get for crime and sports. It's personal ad time again. Oh, baby, we can't wait. Personal ads from the newspapers, lonely people trying to find love, and it is some sad, hilarious shit. Very, very funny.

We go to all different ones all over the country, too. It's a good shit, that one. Then for Small Town Murder, we're going to talk about, we're going to continue our serial killer childhood series that we had going on last year. It's fascinating. Oh, it is. We're going to talk about BTK's childhood, and it is creepy and all in his words man and holy shit is it he's just such a weird guy yeah just such a creep patreon.com slash crime and sports is where you get all of that and you're gonna get a shout out oh as a matter of fact when do you get

those shout outs right fucking now jimmy jimmy hit me with them like i'm sunny like i'm a cop trying to arrest sunny liston lay him on me brother this week's executive producers are christine g katie sick nagando sicky sitchy ginano yeah ginano if you're italian you will fuck your name up rose sonstrom uh sonstrom maybe sonstrom brandy huntley lisa putnam put man put man putman uh and sue bombs hot titties sue bob's hot titties hey i'm the hottest of the white family i'm the sexiest of the white family other producers this week are robbie rabbi shmulovich's pet hamster beavis uh herman herman fox he's the best bowler in the synagogue league of 77. Corporal Carl Kirshner and his $100 Italian Sammy.

He found a deli in the Midwest that has $100 sandwiches, evidently. I don't know if that's true. It better be six feet long. Peyton Meadows, Holden McGurkin. Are you proud of yourself? Do you feel better? Is that it? Is that what you needed?

Jacob Cook is engaged because you told him that the world does not owe him pussy. So he got up off of his ass and found a gal to marry him. Congratulations, Jake. It works in practice. It worked out. Kate Scott, Janice Hill, Thomas Smith, happy birthday, Thomas. Happy

birthday. I've missed you. Akia Hardiman, Hardyman, Ian DeMar. DeMare. Allison Watkins. Joseph Tucker. Amelia. Amelia.

Garkun. Gagrican. Gagrican. Yeah. Close. Garson? I don't know. Sean Maryhugh.

Steph. Sean Maryhugh. Is that real? Steph with no last name. M with no last name. Just the letter. Brianna Garrett. Jennifer Johnson.? Steph with no last name. M with no last name. Just the letter. Brianna Garrett. Jennifer Johnson.

Becky Legger, I think. Legger. Gianna? Jean. Jeanette? Heft. Angela Monroe. Def with no last name.

Lily Wallaker? Laura Wedley. Nina Skaggs. Casey Post. Michelle Petri. Tia? Tia? Tia.

Tay LeBlanc. Jason Frank, Francesca Herrera, Anna Contreras, Ashley Stapleton, McCray Smith, Melinda Snowdy, McKay Jr., M, Jennifer with no last name, Casey Agadar, Stephanie Kojis, Geneher? Something like that. Stephanie Kojis. Jean. Jenny. Jenny Serino. Disgruntled Foreskin. That's disgusting.

James Morris. Kelsey Freeland. H. Moxley. Tuli Lauder. Paige Zenkovich. Bruce Cox. Cole Lee. Chris Fletcher.

Kelly Bergmans. Susan Fry. Ian Shotters. Tamara Cameron. Tamara? Tamara. Robert Fininer, Marlene Simon, Jack with no last name, Betty Sadler, Annie Kingsley, Catherine Hunter, Emily Malloy, Marcus Dyak, Sarah Jacobs, Bridget Patterson, Radic Barnert, Emily with no last name. Olivia Garrison, Chris Young, Eric Thompson, Jason with no last name. Joel or maybe Joel. Amy Cunningham, Claudia with no last name. David Evers.

Joel. That's the name of the guy that plays for the fucking Sixers. Joel is his first name. Yeah, there's a few Joels out there. It's not Joel. It's Joel. It's Joel. David Evers, Sandra Tugas, Yolanda Wood, Carla with no last name. name yeah there's a few joels out there it's not joel it's joel it's joel david ever sandra tugas

yolanda wood carla with no last name marcus please plice i don't know amanda wolf ayala ayla spears ayla oh boy mrs double d congratulations christopher crystal and josh parrot nancy leishman uh carter herne hernie hern jen brown donovan grace jeffrey able I said that. Damn it. Craig Fouts. Daniel Zappa. So nice. You said it twice.

Zappa Tagarduno. Yeah. Zappa Tagarduno. Zappa Tagarduno. David Kerstetter. Jacob J jacob juhasz juhasz uh brad magot magohi mcgay he mcgoey mcgay mcgothy jacob does are very different names jacob david felitti day polite uh barbara oxford robert nielsen nanu, Nanu Perez, Jesse with no last name, Natalie O, Kim Waddington, Tawny Anderson, Tony Anderson, James Marquardt, Elizabeth Ayoung, Linda Bartol,

Bergen Bacon, Evelyn Phillips, Marshall Bowen, Shelley Kennedy, Raymond Geisler, Sarah Sheridan, Ronnie Hicks, Jessica Brenner, Laura Johnson, John Memranick, Gary Burke, Jane Doe, Becky Haney, Amy Burke, Eric Bully, Samuka, Amy Squirrut, Vinnie Snelson, Pamela with no last name, Mary Ann with no last name, Todd Stokes. Gabby with no last name. Diana Spencer. Lazzy. Lazzy. Lazzy Williams. Laura Abel. S with no last. Just the letter S. This show brought to you by the letter S.

Hey. Kayla Miller. Michael Gonzalez. Barry McCockner. Are you proud of yourself? It's not Barry. That's not your first name. It's been very few this week.

You're a real dick. You think McCockner's the last name, though? It might be. It's probably James jesse with no last name john mccloskey miss kitka uh angie strain jerry rayfield ryan ryan clay brandon hume lamont cranston the fourth autumn tyranny uh jeff vance kim oh hatchoski han choski alex Alex Garcia, Lauren with no last name, William Plummer, Ricardo Martimus, Sarah Plansky, Melissa Thomas, Brittany Weber, Tim Dirksen, Laura Simmons, Matt Brown, Jessica Welch, Stacy Baker, James Kim, Jerry Vo, Stephen Brooks, Mintberry Crunch, Mandy, Mandy Dempsey, Anne Marie Viola.

I'm going to slow down for these. Duke Fang Devine, Chelsea Waters, Alex Madrid, Amber Branson, Liz Plimely, and all of our patrons. You're fucking amazing. Thank you. Thank you so much, everybody, for all that you do for us each and every day, each and every week, and for the last few years. Thank you so much for 351 episodes. Thanks for everything you do for us each and every day, each and every week, and for the last few years. Thank you so much for 351 episodes. Thanks for everything you do for us. We really do appreciate it.

If you want to follow either one of us on social media, very easy to do that. Head over to shutupandgivememurder.com. Links are all right there. You can find it. Do that. Keep coming back. Don't miss part three,

because holy shit, we've come to quite the conclusion here. It is wild, man. This is like the third act of action. It's crazy shit. So can't wait for you to see that. Keep coming back every week and live from the Crime and Sports Studios. We'll see you next week.

Bye. Hey, Prime members, you can listen to Crime and Sports early and ad-free on Amazon Music. Download the Amazon Music app today, or you can listen early and ad-free with Wondery Plus and Apple Podcasts. Before you go, tell us about yourself by completing a short survey at wondery.com slash survey.