Crime in Sports - #422 - Blood Out Of A Turnip - "Hurricane" Rubin Carter - Part 3

Episode Date: August 20, 2024

This week, we catch up with Rubin, as a convicted murderer. The original witnesses are now recanting their stories of seeing Rubin at the murder scene. Meanwhile, Bob Dylan has written a popular song about him, and Muhammed Ali has taken up his cause. This leads to the charges being set aside, and a retrial. Problem is, while out on bail, he's also accused of beating a woman half to death! Will he stay out of prison??Have Bob Dylan write a song, turning you into a folk hero, get out of jail, due to a large force of celebrities on your side, and be retried for the same murders, hoping for a different result with "Hurricane" Rubin Carter - Part 3!!Check us out, every Tuesday!We will continue to bring you the biggest idiots in sports history!! Hosted by James Pietragallo & Jimmie Whisman Donate at... patreon.com/crimeinsports or with paypal.com using our email: [e-mail] Get all the CIS & STM merch at crimeinsports.threadless.com Go to shutupandgivememurder.com for all things CIS & STM!!  Contact us on... twitter.com/crimeinsports [e-mail] facebook.com/Crimeinsports instagram.com/smalltownmurderSee Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Hey Prime members, you can listen to Crime and Sports early and ad-free on Amazon Music. Download the app today. I'm Dan Tuberski. In 2011, something strange began to happen at a high school in upstate New York. A mystery illness, bizarre symptoms, and spreading fast. What's the answer? And what do you do if they tell you it's all in your head? Hysterical, a new podcast from Wondery and Pineapple Street Studios. Binge all episodes of Hysterical Early and ad-free on Wondery Plus. Hello everybody and welcome back to Crime and Sports. Yay! Yay indeed, Jimmy.

Yay indeed. My name is James Petragallo. I'm here with my co-host. I'm Jimmy Wissman. Thank you so much for joining us today on another wild, crazy edition of Crime and Sports. As usual, we are going to get back into Ruben Carter here, the hurricane. He's too much story for even two episodes to hold.

We're spilling over into a part three. And I'm not sure. Patrick, I'm not sure this is going to do it either. Really? There's a lot of stuff coming up here. Yeah, well, he just went to prison. And that's the beginning. And then the whole fight to get well, he just went to prison, and that's the beginning. And then the whole fight to get him out,

and all the celebrities, and Bob Dylan songs, and all this type of shit is a huge thing too, because there's retrials, and it's a lot. So we'll talk about it. Where we left off, we'll get into very quickly first, though. Definitely head over to shutupandgivemurder.com. Get your merch, get your tickets for live shows. Come see us, come hang out with us.

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in addition to Crime and Sports, and of course, Small Town Murder. Listen to your stupid opinions. Check that out, because god damn it, is it funny? You're gonna hear about, this week we talked about a psychic that is hilarious. He will accuse you of murder and it's funny as shit. So check all that stuff out. You definitely want Patreon.

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I promise you we will not just try to figure out lacrosse stats. But. It's much grosser than that. It's frat boys and strippers, that's what this is about. We're gonna talk all about it. And then for small town murder, we're gonna talk about the whole Idaho murder situation with this Coburger guy, who is just a,

I don't like to judge, okay? I'm not gonna judge people until court proceedings usually are out. But this guy is way too smug to not, you know what I mean? Innocent people are not this smug, and it drives me fucking crazy. Especially when there's DNA, they're not like, DNA, I don't know what you're talking about, obviously.

Shut up, asshole. He's very aware. Oh, he's very aware, and I wanna talk about this guy. I feel like he needs to have his knees taken out from under him, and I think we'll do that. So that is shutupandgivememurder.com also you follow. But Patreon, do that, patreon.com slash crime in sports is where you get all of that.

And you get a shout out at the end of the regular show where Jimmy will sure as shit fuck your name up. Oh, you got that. That's it. Let's get into this. Part three, The Hurricane, Ruben Carter. And he has just been sent to prison and just written a book,

pretty much immediately upon going to prison. I feel like he's using his time wisely here. Is it called Loose Balls? No, that's the Jason Williams. And everybody else. Another reference, and also the ABA story. That came up from a meeting we had, which is somehow that Loose Balls came up in it, which is, that's the kind of Yeah, we that's that came up from a meeting we had which is somehow that loose balls came up in it

Which is that's the kind of business meetings we have Books like loose balls get thrown around in them So this book is called the 16th round from number one contender to number four five four seven two so Great name that is amazing man. That's 1974 and also in 1974 May 2nd, 1974, there's a big article in the paper saying, raw way inmate meeting leads to transfer of four. Meeting. I didn't know you could have an inmate meeting.

Usually. Just inmates only? An inmate only, like a team only meeting, like closed door to the coaches type of deal. Players only deal It doesn't seem like you can have a players only meeting in prison because they usually keep you separated Yeah, inmate meeting is generally called a riot. Yeah, that's what I mean It's an uprising. It's it's normally a criminal activity meeting too much Yeah it says for inmate leaders at raw-Way State Prison have been transferred quietly and quickly for organizing what prison authorities said was a potentially volatile meeting of

prisoners. Oh, right, it didn't happen, but it could have happened. Among the four were two of the best known inmates in New Jersey, Thomas the Rabbi Trentino, who, I'm sure he performed 4,000 circumcisions. That's what he did. The rabbi over here and Ruben hurricane Carter, of course, both removed Monday night to a special wing for troublesome prisoners. Now he's troublesome too. Not only is he in prison, he's troublesome at the vroom building vroom, like a car. Not only is he in prison, he's troublesome. At the Vroom building, Vroom, like a car. Sponsored by Mazda.

Exactly. In Trenton, after allegedly calling a gathering of 200 prisoners Monday afternoon in a raw weight courtyard. What are you trying to unionize 200 prisoners? If you see the guards, first of all, it's an almost middleweight champion of the world and a gangster are going to fucking organize a meeting of all, it's an almost middleweight champion of the world and a gangster are going to fucking organize a meeting of all these people. If you're the guards, let's say you're up in a tower and you look down and you go, why are they all gathering like

that? That can't be good. Right? They're either going to attack each other or us, one of the two. Is this Oz? Is Poet about to read his new poem? What is happening? Are they making a circle in the middle where people are going to have a breakdance battle? Because if not, we got problems here. This is a fucking issue. This could be very, very bad. Maybe it's just battle rapping.

It's okay. So they were both moved to this place and the two other inmate leaders were shipped to other state prisons. So got them the fuck out of there. Carter, one of the top, obviously obviously middleweight serving life in prison last month He was elected president of the prison council at raw way. He's brand new there But he's one of those guys that there's there's a big difference between I'm tough in prison and I'm a middleweight boxing Contender champion. Yeah, I will kick he will kick the shit out of anybody in that prison

I don't care what how big they are He knows how to fight. If you know how to fight like that, like, you know, top level boxer. I'm sure Tyson was the fucking president of the council also. I remember when Tyson went to prison, people were like, oh yeah, let's see how tough you are now. No, people were coming up to him asking him for autographs and shit. They were terrified of him in prison.

Nobody fucked with him. He's See how tough you are now. We've seen how tough he is. I remember that was a with him. See how tough you are now. We've seen how tough he is. Huge to see how tough you are now. What when he's fighting non top contending professional boxers? Yeah, we are going to see how tough he's going to kill people in there for Christ's sake. You think they're more desperate than he is?

He lived the life that they live. That's why he's going in there for Christ's sake. No shit, man. So Trentino, serving a life sentence for the 1963 sin strip killing of a Lodi policeman, recently gained attention for his accomplishments as a writer and painter. He is an officer of the council.

Very talented, yeah. This was a big thing in the 70s, by the way, and in the 80s also where they'd get like In the 60s to it started where they take these find these prisoners who were in there for murder or whatever the fuck it was But they would be like very talented at something and for some reason people thought well You can't be that talented at something and also be a murderer like that's impossible Is that right? You can't be a good writer and a murderer you can't be a great artist and a murderer or you could, but you know,

you deserve another chance because obviously the, your art will take you above your need to murder. You know what I mean? And it usually doesn't work out well for the guys who actually did it. Like the, the belly of the beast guy, he wrote a book called the belly of the beast, which was, he wrote it in prison. It was all about being in prison He had it smuggled out like, you know while he was in there so the book came out while he was in prison and he was a good fucking writer and He you know made everybody go. Holy shit. The prison system system is terrible and this guy's so smart How's he in prison and I'm talking so many people? celebrities and

politicians and really of all stripes too. This wasn't like a political thing. Everyone was like, Oh, we got to get this guy out of there. That's ridiculous. He's an amazing mind go to waste. Yeah. He's got a real like contextual, like understanding of things. And there's no way somebody like that belongs in prison.

But the problem is he was also an actual murder. And when they let him out within, I don't know, six months or something, he stabbed a waiter to death in a restaurant. It's like, yeah, he was a murderer. And you let him out because he wrote well. That's not- He's a fictional character,

but Hannibal Lecter was similar to, you know what I mean? Those guys exist. That's what I mean. They write it because it exists. Yeah, you can be smart and a good writer and also wanna fucking kill people. It's a thing that happens. So I mean, this guy, he stabs somebody to death

immediately, it was sent right back. It made everybody look like an asshole. This was like, he came out and was like a celebrity. He came out like Damien Echols, you know what I mean? Like he came out, was like getting interviews and everybody was helping him. He's got like a book contract from a publisher and all this shit. Everything in life that could be going well for him, it wasn't like he was poor and he

had to rob a 7-Eleven again or anything. Like it was literally, he had everything he wanted, so he stabbed a waiter today. He just wants to kill people. So they talk about the prisoners here in this particular gathering, I don't call it an uprising, because it really wasn't, it was a meeting. You could call it a conspiracy. Conspiracy toward the goal of an uprising possibly.

Well they were trying to rally fellow inmates as a culmination of a recent campaign to get prison authorities to end a policy of segregating some prisoners and to end the use of cells known by inmates as the whole. So trying to get rid of it. Solitary. Solitary, which that's, I mean, there's plenty of scientific and psychological and every

other kind of research that says, well, that's torture. Yeah, you can't, you'd be better off just beating the people. It's less traumatic for them. But the, if the, if the punishment the society has given them has locked them away, sure, lock them away with guys that are also locked away. If they fuck up in there, how do you lock them away further?

I guess it's alone. It's alone, yeah, but the conditions of the whole, you can't throw somebody in a fucking concrete room naked with a bucket and say, fucking sit here for an unknown, unspecified amount of time till we come get you. That's crazy, yeah.

That's, I mean, that's, I mean, anybody would tell you, a doctor would say that is way worse psychologically than if they just came in and beat him with a rubber hose for a few minutes and then left. That would be better. They could understand that and people could process that, but to be psychologically tortured like that, the whole is, it's not

great. And then you have to weigh the punishment that you were just given versus the punishment somebody else was given in here, and you go, well, mine wasn't even near as bad. That guy knifed somebody, and he was in here for three weeks. I mean, I don't even know what day it is. And that's the problem, they lose their days, and when you start losing that, you lose, that's your humanity. You lose your humanity, you lose your fucking mind.

I know a guy who did five years in solitary. That's crazy. Not the whole, but in solitary. He did five years because he was a gangster and he wouldn't fucking tell on his brother and a couple other people and so they kept him in there thinking that he would flip eventually and he never did so they eventually let him out. But he did five fucking years in there. He was like, it fucked my brain up.

Yep, he knows how long his sentence was. Yeah, exactly. He said it fucked his head up. I mean that fucked his head all up, took him a couple years to get out of that, you know what I mean? And those are generally where the lights are just on 24 hours a day, right? Either on or they're- And you don't see the sun. You don't see the sun, they're off. Yeah, a lot of times these are like in the basement of the prison with no windows and

no anything like that. This is not- You don't know what day it is, what time it is. The lights have been on the entire time. It's cold in here. I don't have a blanket and that's concrete I'm laying on. Exactly. In a lot of these states too, it'll be like where the only human contact they have is somebody

putting a fucking meal through a slot. That's all they get. You don't even see them. You don't even see a hand. Yeah, and there's no like, that'll drive you crazy. I've slept on the ground before, like as a kid I've slept on the ground before and it was no big deal.

I was just like, big deal. As an adult, I can't watch TV on the ground. No, I'm like, oh Jesus, what is that? Fuck, all sorts of shit's hurting over here. I can't crawl under a car and do work on it and then get out of there. That amount of time fucks my body up. Yeah, you get up, you're like, oh, I think there's a disc problem, I'm pretty sure that's what that is.

I'm gonna feel this for three days, yeah. Yeah, so here they said, according to the spokesman for the State Department of Institutions and Agencies, the 5.30 p.30pm gathering of prisoners was permitted to proceed without interruption and led to no confrontation with guards. However, the meeting was considered grounds for transfer of the four leaders. This one worked out peacefully, but if they can get everyone to gather and talk, what if they all get them together and say, okay, let's fuck the guards up and then we got

200 people attacking us with fucking shivs. That can't be good. Yeah, this may not have been nefarious, but it doesn't mean the next one won't. Yeah. So a spokesman for the department said a gathering of that size in a state prison is illegal because of the potentially explosive factor. Anyone who calls such a meeting automatically is charged with inciting, which is a little bit silly.

You can call a meeting to talk. That's what I mean. That's where... And I suppose you could line that up with being stripped of rights to constitutional rights of free gathering or free... What's the other one? Speech and freedom to gather, freedom to assemble. Yeah, assemble. But if you've gotten... you can't even go to the grocery store. So you've gotten right stripped already. So what's the difference?

Even the assembly, you need a permit for most of those if you're going to have anything like that. Otherwise you're- And technically, you're already assembled. We assembled you. We assembled you all together. You had no choice in who was involved in this meeting. We decided.

The spokesman said the decision to remove the inmate leaders to avoid the possibility of trouble was made by what is called an adjustment committee, known by prisoners as a court line, composed of a guard, a guard captain, and a civilian employee of the prison. Well, it's good to see that there's people on both sides of that one. It's not just good to see that there's people on both sides

of that one, it's not just, oh wait, no, they all work together and they're all friends. They're all on the same side. Yeah, can we bring somebody in from the outside who has nothing to do with shit? Who can like, you know, doesn't have to like. Somebody to represent us maybe? Yeah, well somebody who's not gonna get like the stink eye

in the coffee room if they go against the other two. You know, like that's ridiculous. So they said the room building is known as having the tightest security of all state prison facilities. One part is used to house the criminally insane and another part here, part to the house is to house inmates charged with causing trouble at other prisons. So rabble rousers and the bat shit crazy are who are here. Yeah, rabble rousers and people that rabble rouse and don't know it. Yeah, they're rioting and they don't even think they are.

They're having their own personal riot 24 seven. Rabble rousers, to their own knowledge and to not. Under their own knowledge and to not, under their own accord and not, just doing it because. Not, prison is fucking so weird off the subject quickly. Prison's so fucking weird because we think of it as like this entrenched thing, like you know, you do something and you go to this place in a building and they put bars in front of you, but like,

we didn't, it's like a relatively new concept. Like long term incarceration is not anything that like in history people did. They would like do something to you. If you did this, you'd get a beating, you'd get something chopped off or whatever the fuck it was. Don't call it corporal punishment.

But that was it, then you went home. It wasn't like, well 20 years, we'll just sit here and watch ya. That's a... Took his hand, but... Yeah. He needs to go home. That's like a Western thing.

We figured that out, you know? Zatokville, who came over from France to look over, he wrote Democracy in America, which was like 1800s of Europeans' view of what's going on over here, because they didn't have that over there. And he went around to prisons a lot, because they didn't do that in Europe. And he went around to prisons a lot

because they didn't do that in Europe to that level. So he was trying to figure it out. And we went over, we went through so many things of like, this is the way you, this is how you do prison. And then 20 years later we were like, oh no, no, no, that was terrible, that was terrible. Okay. That was such a bad idea.

Let's do it this way. Like for a while there was prisons where people weren't allowed to talk at all, ever. Yeah, all right. Ever. It was all solitary confinement in your cell You had to work without talking and then you went to your solitary cell and all you had was a Bible and that was it They did that for a while and then they went

Oh, yeah People are going fucking crazy and getting out and losing their minds because they can't handle it Isn't it weird that the criminal mind when left to its own devices and unable to speak and let it out gets crazier. Then you're gonna let them out too with completely diminished social skills and a criminal record and go, now do good in the world. Go ahead, go get jobs and make a good living. Incredibly frustrating.

Yeah, don't talk for a day and see how weird you are. You know what I mean? Do that for five years and see how you are. Let's frustrate an already angry individual. Angry frustration is way worse than just regular frustrated. Oh yeah, then you're really pissed off. Then you're in the criminally insane wing. Yeah, that's right.

That's not just crazy, that's angry crazy. So they said, prisoners in this place are locked up all the time, almost all the time, and have little contact with other inmates. An inmate has 72 hours to appeal his transfer to the superintendent of the prison, and the case of anyone sent to the Vroom building is received every 30 days. So you can keep trying to get out.

They keep reviewing you every 30 days to see if you can leave. Transferred in addition to Trentino and Carter in the wake of the convict meetings was Marvin Mathis sent to Trenton State Prison, William Grimsley who was sent to the prison, State Prison at Leesburg. Mathis, the leader of the Muslim inmates, is serving a life term for the 1965 shooting

and torch slaying, Jesus, of Stanley K. Caswell, an insurance salesman from North Plainsfield. What did he do to cross, what did he do to cross the Muslims? Jesus Christ! My God. So that's then September 28th, 1974, Ruben Carter asking for a retrial. So they're saying he is seeking a new trial now, trying to, you know, he's got the legal stuff. He is saying now in an interview at Trenton State Prison he said he was framed for racial reasons

and because he actively fought for black rights. Now, I don't remember him fighting that much for black rights in our, in our. I didn't hear anything about it. I didn't remember that, that wasn't, in all of our coverage it wasn't like, Ruben is out there again marching with fucking Martin Luther King, or Ruben is out there.

He did say he was gonna march with him. He said he was, yeah, he was like for them, but I mean, a lot of people were. They weren't fighting for them. I'm sure every black person was for them. That's what I mean, I would hope so. So I don't know what that's about, but definitely he's in prison because he's just,

that's part of it I think there. So lawyers for artists the guy his other guy there that he was convicted with and Carter said Friday they will file a motion and they want a new trial. Carter said the new developments in his case give him hope for freedom. He said in the past eight years I've had to be content with just surviving. The way I feel today gives me a new desire to live. He's been in there for almost 10 years now. He went in, what, 66, I think.

Yeah. Oh, was it that one? I don't know. He said he was framed because of his activities on behalf of blacks in Patterson. He said, it's not civil rights, it's human rights. It's the same rights I'm fighting for right here. So they said, are you resentful? And he said, bitter?

That's a question better put to my wife who has lived without a man for eight years or to my daughter who's been without a father and who has had the stigma hanging over her. They're also doing hard time. That's true too, that is very true here. I don't think he just thesaurised that question, that was impressive. That was, he's a smart guy.

Are you resentful? Bitter! Bitter! I know that word. I'm bitter, full of ire, if you wanna know, to be honest with you. That was the word of the day, I know all kinds of synonyms for that one. I'm feeling dyspeptic over this entire scenario.

So. Don't write uncomfortable. This all comes, this new trial comes because the New York Times and WNEW-TV of New York confirmed and confirmed by a New Jersey public advocate, Stanley Van Ness, that the two prosecution witnesses, Arthur D. Bradley and Alfred P. Bello, have recanted their testimony. Those are the people, literally the only thing they had was,

I saw two black guys get in a white car. And that's those two guys that said they saw that from the neighborhood. And one of those guys was in the act of robbing the murder scene and They were like, oh, we'll take his word for it rather than say Rather than assume he did it. He's robbing them Unreal so that is what's going on here

So I guess Bradley one of the witnesses was arrested and subsequently released on a thousand dollar Bail and Wayne Township of charges of possessing marijuana, which is fine in my book, and striking his mother Mary in the face, which again, that's not okay. Don't do that. I would say don't do that. So during a family argument. So they're like, that guy's a piece of shit that hits his mother and he also recanted

his testimony. And those are really the only two witnesses they have. That'll leave you downright indignant. and he also recanted his testimony. And those are really the only two witnesses they have. That'll leave you downright indignant. Downright indignant and dyspeptic. And that's including the one victim who couldn't pick him out of, couldn't pick Ruben Carter out of the line.

Not good. Not good at all. Yeah, the state though is opposing Carter's retrial. They're going, nope, everything's fine, we're good. Yeah, they're fine with it. State Attorney General has said that he wants to resist it. The Attorney General also ordered that one of the recanting witnesses move to Passaic County Jail was transferred immediately

to Morris County Jail. According to Matthew Boylan, the head of the state's criminal justice division, a joint motion for the transfer of Alfred Bello will be filed tomorrow and to move him somewhere. They said, we are doing this so that Bello is not subjected to any risk. I will visit Pasaik personally to see that the transfer is done. I guess they said because he said he recanted his testimony. Bello, by the way, was serving a nine month sentence sentence for burglary, because that's what he does. Because he did it, yeah.

Because he did it. And it's not even that burglary. That was eight years ago. No, it's a different one. This is another burglary. He's just a local scumbag. It should be Alfred Bellow, local scumbag, comma. Local thief, shit.

Local thief and scumbag. Bellow's serving that, and I guess they signed sworn statements, both Bradley and Bellows saying the Passaic County detectives pressured them into saying they saw Carter and Artis. Really? Yeah. So they're going to have a hearing to see what's going on here. The Passaic County prosecutor has said that he will resist the retrial, the spokesman said, and it will not, and it will not, and we will not step in to stop him. We are staying out of the case, the Passaic County.

Okay. The spokesman also said the attorney general will not order a special investigation of the Passaic County prosecutor's office, but rather will support that office in its own in-house investigation. Oh, we'll, We'll handle it internally. We'll look around and see what happened. We'll clean up our own backyard is what they just said. No need to handle a different sentence. We got it.

No. You still have engines hanging from trees and shit. Your backyard, you've had plenty of time to clean it up. It's ugly back there. It's ugly. So they said, the spokesman said the factors could arise which would make the Attorney General's office intervene in the retrial motion and the investigation of the prosecutor's office, but he would not say what those factors might be.

Yeah. Okay. So they said Bellow transferred jails and the Bergen County Sheriff Joseph Job said that the transfer was initiated by the Bergen County jail warden. They said, he did this without my knowledge or approval. He asked the Pasaic to accept him because Bellow's presence was causing a commotion in the jail with all the reporters and television people.

If I had known about the transfer, I wouldn't have allowed it. Why expose Bellow to this kind of thing? Yeah, we're real worried about Bellow being exposed to shit. I mean, we got, all right. Jesus. Another person said that, yeah, there's a lot of publicity, which are making people want to harm Bellow, obviously,

but at the same time, they're confident that all this publicity will keep him safe. Oh. Because, you know, he's high profile, so no one wants to kill him. Okay. Jeffrey Dom, how'd that worry over him? Yeah, that's what I mean.

He's not as high profile a guy as you can get. How many ho, yeah, high profile prisoners, especially it's a bunch of fucking prisoners who don't care. If you're in for life anyway, you're like, fuck this guy. This guy also said, I don't give a damn about Carter and artists. I'm in this for myself. I'm using the news media because as long as the story is big, nothing's going to happen to me. This is what Bello said. If I so much as catch a cold, they're in trouble and the blacks aren't going to touch me before I talk

in court because they're going to want him to say that, you know, that he lied so hurricane can get out, which is this is fucking wild. The Passaic County Sheriff, I guess, Edwin J. Engelhardt, is running for reelection and has staked his reputation on ensuring Bellow's safety. Wow. I love this part of the article. When it comes to playing the angles, Bellow has been wrong before. He says he traded away his testimony against Carter and artists in exchange for the promise of a $10,000 reward and police help in keeping him out of trouble.

He says now that he never got the money and has had nothing but trouble since Carter's 1966 trial. Scammers are best known for living the high life until they're forced to trade it all in for handcuffs and an orange jumpsuit once they're finally caught. I'm Saatchi Cole. And I'm Sarah Haggye. And we're the host of Scamfluencers, a weekly podcast from Wondery that takes you along

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He said a lot of things over the past seven years may not be related directly to Carter and artists, but indirectly from the animosity caused by the trial. The whites hated me because they think I got the money, and the blacks hated me because they think I lied. Yeah. Yeah. He said his ribs were broken once in a fight with a soldier while two Patterson policemen

watched without assisting. He claims that another fight with four black people left an eight inch knife scar on his shoulder. Oh. So he says that he tried working for his friends but lost one job after another as police advised his friends of his criminal record. You know he's a scumbag fucking constant burglar, right? He's one of the worst guys, right? He's just terrible.

Bottom rung. He said, I was working as a restaurant manager and the police came by. My friend says to me, and this is exactly from the paper, my friend says to me, look Al, I like you and all, but if I keep you around, the police are gonna come down on me, you know. Can't have him breaking my balls.

He did like a De Niro and Goodfellow, the two of them, commiserating, I can't have it, you know what I mean? I can't have it. If I keep you on, the cops, what, he's gonna get traffic taken, what have you done? They're gonna keep coming around and breaking balls because they wanna fuck with you. So he said repeated disappointment drove him to,

wow, what terrible writing in the newspaper here. Repeated disappointment drove him repeatedly to the bottle. You just used repeated twice in fucking, there was only two words, three words between the two repeatants, it's not enough. Forget his mistake, where's your fucking copy editor, man? Come on, Jesus. There's so many other words to use.

Unbelievable. That mean all the time and over and over. There's so many ways to do that. Constant, come on man, try. Yes, wow. In combination with medication he takes for a chronic digestive problem, he said the alcohol often left him incapable

of rational thinking and accounted for his return to jail several times since the Carter trial You drink and do dumb shit. That's what that's called There do well out on the street drunk cause yeah problems is that right and he said quote I had more money in my pocket than I took from that last bar. I robbed Well, then why'd you do it stupid if you had money, why you stealing money? Oh my God. He said that of Italian and Polish descent, the dark-haired mustachioed bellow has come to regard much of his down-and-out life with the grim humor that is popular in prison societies.

Quote, one time down in Tom's River, I slept in one of those Salvation Army bins for old clothing. I woke up the next morning and saw all these people outside in cars bringing clothes and I thought, how the hell am I going to get out? They're all going to think I live in here. They're going to cover me in their old Jordac. Oh shit, yeah, he's just laying there. Oh, that's a winter coat. I got to get that off my face.

He said since the recantation of his, you know, placing Carter at the crime scene, he received at least one letter postmarked Washington, DC and recalling the pardoning of former President Nixon and conditional amnesty for draft evaders, he opened it with glee. He was like, maybe it's a federal pardon. For me, yeah. On a state robbery charge? What the hell is, no. He said, I thought, oh boy, Washington.

But it was only a pamphlet from some Jesus freak telling me that I may be here in the slam, but God was watching over me. That's just what I needed. Yeah, he's in there with you, enjoy. He said he also had a visit in jail from the other star prosecution witness against him, Arthur Dexter Bradley, the other guy who said

he saw Carter get into the car. Bello says, quote, he says, Al, I feel great, and he wants me to go on television with him. I kick the jerk out. Get outta here. He also said that Bello and artists's appeal team of attorneys and investigators here from the public defender's office has attempted to make friends with him. He said they speak of possible television appearances, movie ventures, and helping him

publish his short stories and poems, meaning Bellow, not Carter. He said, but I'm not interested in any of that stuff because unless they come across with some cash. Yeah. That's what he says. That's literally his quote. Yeah. Bring me can of any of this opportunity bullshit. He's like a comic going, don't tell me it's for fucking exposure.

Don't give me that bullshit. Not even your pizza. Give me money. Great. Yeah. You'll put me on your Instagram feed. I don't give a shit. Fuck you.

20 bucks. That's like an open mic your last your last tick-tock went viral but your most recent one has 300 views fuck off not great he denies that his recantation which Hogan has on tape and film was motivated by money however he said that he simply decided that with his own distaste for jail it would be a shame for two men to spend the rest of their lives in prison without a chance for a second trial He said nobody could ever come to me and say there wasn't a break for them that I kept them in jail. He goes hey

You know me I just I stay out of it. You know what I mean? Okay, it's not my business. So yeah, this comes in the paper that you know, there's the big recanting of the whole thing and He just keeps saying he thought he was getting 10 grand. Okay. And Bellow said, all I said was I saw two black men. That's what he said he told the cops. I said I saw two black men and they said it was these two, right? And pressured me.

All right. And Arthur Bradley kind of says the same thing. He said, I didn't see what I said I saw. I didn't see Carter and Artis that. I didn't see Carter an artist that night. Uh-oh. Uh-oh. Bradley said he lied because quote, I was facing a lot of charges. And he said he was told that the authorities involved

would get him easier sentences if he testified against Carter, which happens all the time. Sure. They bring people in on drug, half of the major crime solvings are get, are because they caught somebody with a fucking bag in their pocket.

That's it. They pulled over some guy or they picked up some guy on the side of the fucking road, searched and brought him in and said, how'd you like to get out from under these charges? They start saying anything. Anything else? Yeah. That's how it works. So, wow.

Bellow also said that he was told to leave Patterson after the trial and he was under severe pressure during many of the hours he was questioned. So there's hearings about this and the hearings resume with cross-examination of Bradley. He and Bellow are being held in the Hudson County Jail until the hearings are completed. So they said they did it all to stop me from testifying on this appeal, Bellow said. That's why they transferred him jails and do all this shit. He said they're trying to fuck with me so I don't do this. December 12th, 1974, judge denies Ruben Carter's bid

for retrial of murder conviction, even though they had a hearing where the only two witnesses they had recanted their testimony. Oh boy. They still said nope, it's good. That's what's so fucked up. The difference between right before they say guilty and right after they say guilty are monstrously different. So that is fucking crazy. The superior court judge,

Samuel a Larner, hopefully he's dead by now, who presided over the trial here. He denies a new trial and the new evidence was revealed obviously by the New York Times who got the info from Bellow and Bradley and then they had a hearing about it. In dismissing the bid for a new trial the judge said quote that ring of truth is totally absent in the recantation of both witnesses. After a complete review of the evidence at trial and the post trial hearing the court finds that Bellow's recantation is simply unbelievable. How? How is it any more unbelievable than I saw those two as I was robbing the place where the murder

happened? 100% didn't see them. Wow. Fucking A. Now of this Rubin says quote I wasn't expecting anything to come from this man meaning the judge This judge has shown me consistently in the past that he was totally against me The judge does clearly thinks he's guilty and doesn't like him So the original trial judge hears motions for new trials under New Jersey court rules at the time So Carter claimed Larner the judge was prejudiced against him. He said, from the outset, he was so personally involved that he couldn't in all good conscience do anything for me. He said, the judge went on to say, if mere recantation in itself dictates

a new trial, the entire judicial process could be frustrated by the mere whim of a witness recanting his testimony. Yeah, that's why you have to have great fucking police work. That's the thing. And it's also evidence is if that's your only evidence, then yeah. That's a problem. That's a fucking problem. And just because it's inconvenient for the court system, that's like, well, we can't

have people come in and out of, yeah, you do actually. Because the point of the court system is to have guilty people in jail and not guilty people not in fucking jail. Don't just say, well that would bring up a whole lot of extra paperwork that we don't feel like doing, so we'll let people sit in prison for 40 years? The fuck are you talking about? We got one done, so we can't undo it just because that guy unsaid

some shit. That's, wow, yeah sorry, on the lids be so much paperwork, we just don't want to do it. That's a lot of white out. I'm lids be so much paperwork. We just don't want to do it. That's a lot of whiteout. I'm not going to do all that. I think the bigger problem is that what they're worried about, obviously, what it feels to me, is that there's lawsuits involved and that breaks the...

Oh, that too. That's a lot of money that goes back into these people. We just put all this money out to convict them. Now we're going to have to give that person money because we violated their rights. Oh, you know how we could solve this? By maybe convicting guilty people better. Yeah, that would be a good thing and not convicting people who are guilty. That would help. Yeah, then you would have no problems with that. So they said the court must have to, but then everyone says you're being soft on crime because you know, this person got off.

Well, you know, what the fuck do you want? Yeah, it's hard to, what? Soft on crime is solid on fucking human rights? What are we talking about? It's not soft on crime if you're the defendant. You know what I mean? You're like, Hey, I want every bit of fucking benefit of the doubt I can get here. But when it's someone else outside looking in, you're like, Oh, well, don't be soft on

crime. Okay. Well, I think, I think we're a little soft on what qualifies somebody as a cop Yeah, that's what I think we're soft on soft in the fucking head at this point We got a lot of out-of-shape motherfuckers wearing a badge and a gun. That's not good. That's that's that could be bad, too They said the court must determine whether the new testimony is true and the trial testimony false By application of a standard of reasonable probability. Yeah. Yeah. Well, I don't know. I think it's reasonably probable that a guy who's facing fucking burglary charges or other charges gets put in and said, hey, if you say it's these two, then we'll drop the charges and you get $10,000. Yeah. It's

reasonably probable that my guy might fucking lie for that. To both get out of trouble and make money. It's reasonably probable that a man leaving a murder crime scene with handfuls and pocketfuls of cash has reason to- Tilt for the blood on it. Has plenty of reason to fucking lie. And I'm sorry, but most people, even if they wanted to go rob the cash register, anybody who's not a total scumbag would walk in and go, oh my God, there's dead people

all over. Oh Jesus, I'm getting the fuck out of here. And you turn around and leave. You wouldn't be like, cool. What kind of piece of shit fills his pockets on that opportunity? He said, cool, no one's watching the register. Sweet. There are no fucking witnesses here.

That's fucking crazy. So they said that Bello, currently in county jail still here, saying that he testified at the original trial that they were attempting a break in at a sheet metal firm block from the bar and testified that he saw Carter and artists outside the bar with guns after the murders and the bar. So there you go. That's what they're saying here. They said that this is Passaic County prosecutor Joseph D. Gurley, G-O-U-R-L-E-Y,

whose office handled the murder case and appeals. He says that the ruling against Carter gives a certain vindication to the office. That's how they're looking at it. It's personal for them, that's what I mean. That's the other problem, It can't be personal. Yeah. It has to be.

I tried to do my job and I guess it was wrong, so good. I'm glad that this person's not in jail. I get that that's not human nature, but... Right, right. You got to look at it as... It's good when you take ownership of a project and any misstep you take is personal to yourself, but you got to put your work in and then let the team compile theirs and build the best house possible.

Well, he basically said, we don't want to look like jerk-offs over here. You know what I mean? Yeah. That's all he just said. That's a framer being pissed that the concrete guy didn't build the right foundation. I don't know, man. Don't be mad at them. Don't be mad at yourself over that. Not my fault. So this guy, the prosecutor, went on to say that he felt all along that the law enforcement official accused of coercion, those two guys,

were not the type of individuals who would resort to that type of activity to get a conviction. So I looked at their character and said, they wouldn't do that. Never. Yeah, the prosecutor refused to rule out the possibility of perjury charges against Bradley and Bello.

He said some prosecutor might look into that once all appeals have run their course. So they're gonna get them for perjury of, in the hearing saying that they recanted their testimony. That's what he's talking about, which is, wow. That is fucking insane, man, absolutely insane. So February 13th, 1975, a superior court judge, again, rules that he cannot have a retrial again.

So, jeez, fuck, man. But a Madison Avenue advertising executive, George Lois, organizes a campaign on Carter's behalf. Because this is playing out in the New York Times every day. So these people are reading this going, hold on here, the two witnesses, what the fuck is going on here? So that will make a lot of people go, this doesn't seem correct here. And this leads to increasing public support for a retrial or even a pardon people want

out of it. They don't know. Muhammad Ali comes in to the fray here and lends his support to the campaign as well, including publicly wishing Carter good luck on his appeal while doing an appearance on The Tonight Show with Johnny Carson September of 73. With Carson, wow. So everybody saw that shit, that's big.

So then, 1975 November, that is when the Hurricane song comes out. And that's, you can see it here or there, but when it comes out, that song is everywhere. And it's Bob Dylan, so he's very famous. And I fucking can't stand this song, by the way. It's really annoying. Is it bad?

It's fucking annoying. This is the story of the hurricane. I don't think I know it. I don't think I know it. You know it, you've watched Family Guy. Do you remember when Stewie walks out of the high school when he was pretending he's cool and he walks out nude? They're playing it in the background.

Oh, I don't remember that. You gotta know the song. Wow, you don't know the song? Oh, do you wanna play it? Go ahead. Can we? Yeah, we'll play know the song. Oh, do you want to play it? Yeah, we'll play in the background for 10 seconds. That's fine. We can't play it for three minutes and be like this is Please click on our shit here There were some people saying that they were like these guys say that they don't like Bob Dylan and Neil Young but they like Bob Seeger and it's like yes, I I like Neil Young I fucking love that guy I can't stand his voice his voice is

Possum's being run over by a fucking Ford Festiva fucking love Ohio and I love Because it's not just gonna smash them it's very light so it'll just injure them to where they're going where they're going, Rrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr I don't know. Neil Young's one of those guys that I feel like, yes, you can say you like him, because I like some people who don't sing very well, but you can't say what a good singer he is, because he's a fucking objectively horrible singer. I don't know if I've ever thought, boy, I could put this one up against a fucking... He's at the voice of an angel, this one. Look at him.

Boy, does he sound so much like Sam Cooke. Is this Sinatra or is this... Oh, it's Neil Young. Okay, I didn't realize. Is that right? I thought it was Sammy Davis Jr. I didn't realize, okay. Yeah, I'm trying to find a good Bob Dylan,

but it's all fucking, all of these have, it's all on a TV show, why? Don't show me it on a show. Every Bob Dylan song that you can like, you go, well there's a better version of it that someone else did. So again, great writer, but. Really?

I don't know. Yeah. I'll put it on stone. Yeah. He wrote fucking, a couple of Jimi Hendrix songs that are big. He wrote all along the watchtower. He wrote a bunch of shit that's like big songs that just other people did better,

because they could sing and all. What? Oh, nevermind. You're finding. You that was a revelation. I saw that in my tracks. Yeah my eyes just went what? Oh this song? Wow. No, I said Rolling Stone and it was the song I was playing. I was like wow this song? Then it started playing, then the lyrics started and I was like oh that's not it. So did you find Hurricane? You gonna play it? I got it, yeah. Yeah, play it in the background.

I don't know why it's not, I don't know why it's not fun. Play it from your side. Yeah. I like how you sit here with the thing in front of you and this is all you use it for. It's like, oh, look at that. It's only playing in my headphones.

That's kinda nice. Take your iPod away. Yeah, I guess I do know this song. Yeah, it's one of those songs that you've heard and you go oh yeah that's that's what that that's what he's saying that's the other thing too. Yeah. It's hard to understand sometimes. Like what the fuck is he talking about? Oh the hurricane the story of the hurricane okay now I'm hearing you. I got it.

There's a lot of songs like that though, that you hear it and then you find out the lyrics and you're like, oh wow. I didn't know that at all. So Carter maintaining his innocence in his autobiography, that's how Dylan got ahold of him because Bob Dylan read his autobiography and believed him and so he visited him at Rawway. He came and visited him.

And they said that an author wrote about Dylan that Dylan had written topical ballads such as the Lonesome Death of Hattie Carroll, and Bob wasn't sure that he could write a song about Carter. He said he was just filled with all these feelings about Hurricane. He couldn't make the first step. I think the first step was putting a song

in a total storytelling mode. They said, I don't remember whose idea it was to do that, but really the beginning of the song is like stage directions, like what you would hear in a script. Pistol shots ring out in a bar room night. Here comes the story of the hurricane. Boom, titles, like a movie.

Bob loves movies and he can write these movies that take place in 8-10 minutes, yet seem fuller fuller than regular movies. 8-10 minutes? Who wants a song that long? Bob, chill out. If I have to hear you screech for 10 minutes, I'm going to blow my fucking brains out. Can't do it.

You know, it's fascinating how he's aged. He looks like Cloris Leachman now. No, he does. He's very clars. Oh, God. Yeah. I wonder if he's funny now. That would be... If he just turned into Claris Leachman now. No he does, he's very Claris. Yeah, I wonder if he's funny now. That would be, if he just turned into Claris Leachman. That old lady used to be Bob Dylan, that's crazy.

She wrote the hurricane. So this was after Dylan met with Carter and a group of his supporters, he started writing that. This is one of the few like, kind of political action protest type songs he wrote in the 70s. That was more of a 60s thing for Dylan. This did reach number 33 on the Billboard Hot 100 too. It was a big fucking song. James, maybe that's what it is. You don't like guys that sound like shit and try to

get change. I don't mind change. I love the change. I agree with you, but I can't agree with you because you sound like shit. Get him to say it. That's what it is. I agree with you, but I can't agree with you because you sound like shit. Get him to say it. That's what it is. I agree with you. Dick Crosby Sir Stills to say it.

Get one of those people to say it. Get Jimi Hendrix to say it. Oh, wow, that's fucking rocks. Shit, yeah. I'll settle for a mash. Just get it out of this guy's fucking mouth. Get the fuck out of here. I don't care who the hell does it except for them.

Give it to somebody else. Have him say it. No, you're, you know what I mean? Like if you're hideous, then be a, you're a speech writer. You're not the candidate. You know what I'm saying? It's all right to be that guy. It's the way it goes.

It's fine to be that guy. The writer probably makes more money. Just write it. Just do your deal. So, Billboard declared that it was probably the most powerful Dylan song that he's recorded in a decade, combining the sensible hate he showed in Masters of War with a perfect expression of the kind of injustice heard in the Lonesome Death of Hattie Carroll. Record World said that the story is true

and the names haven't been changed to protect the innocent. So Dylan first recorded the song in late 1975 and I guess it featured, they had to redo the song, basically, he was forced to re-record the song with altered lyrics in October of 75, after concerns were raised by Columbia Record Company's lawyers that references to Alfred Bellow and Arthur Dexter Bradley, who are the two witnesses, as having robbed the bodies could result in a lawsuit. Oh yeah.

Okay, well Bellow did rob the bodies, that's the thing. Bradley didn't rob the bodies, but he robbed the bodies of justice. It's a song, there's a lot of ways you can take lyrics. There's a lot of nuances. It's art, yeah. You can't paint a picture and sue somebody because you don't like the depiction of the picture, because they can say that's not what I'm depicting, I'm just not as good of an artist as you think I am, and it looks like that.

So that's pretty crazy. Freedom of speech and shit, apart from accusations, but yeah, art is, come on, man. How many times did they say shit in songs that isn't necessarily true? Yeah, that's what I mean, it's a fucking song. I don't think she was actually poisoned, James. That's what I mean. It might have fucking song. I don't think she was actually poisoned, James. That's what I mean.

It might have been 10 o'clock on the swatch watch, but she wasn't poisoned. We don't know if she was poisoned or not. Things can be true and some things can be false. That's what I mean, we don't know. If we're taking everything dead ass serious, somebody better lock up Buster Rhymes for writing that lyric about the girl

being underage and backstage. And got us all in check at the same time. This is bad. We got to be careful about him. Jesus Christ. Yeah, you could take any fucking, you know, any 90s rap song and everyone's going to prison. There's 12 murders every song. So I don't know if Bello robbed the bodies, but he robbed the cash register just to do that. They said there was too much leakage on the multi-tracks to make a vocal punch-in. Dylan decided to re-record the entire song. And at this time, he was already rehearsing

for an upcoming tour, and so he was doing this. He took a violinist and a guitarist and a bassist and a drummer and other people, and they had, that's the song you hear as a newer, as a faster version of the hurricane. The original one was a little bit more of ballady, whereas this is kinda, it's got that, it's got that fucking,

whatever in the back there. The original was more like Steve Earl's fucking Billy Austin, just real slow. Walking down the road, see the scum trail in his wake, Stevie you're a scum bag whoa piece of shit real piece of shit so um they did that this is it's a pretty long song too the the final version of the song which runs over eight minutes

golly so I mean it's too much we're spliced together from two separate takes completed on that day. They said though, even though some of the offending lyrics were removed, the song still drew legal action from eyewitness Patricia Graham Valentine, Patty Valentine, who's the Bellows girlfriend, who believed that it portrayed her part of a conspiracy to frame Carter. However, her lawsuit was dismissed by a federal district court and the US Court of Appeals, uh, affirmed the dismissal, you know, cause it's a song and it's not a fucking

statement. It's literally put to music and could mean anything. At that point, she, if she drags it out long enough, she's going to end up getting hit with legal fees. That could ruin her whole fucking life. What an idiot. That's a dumb thing to do. And it's, yeah, I mean, did Jimi Hendrix fucking chop a mountain down with this? No, probably not, you know what I mean? Like, you could just say anything on a song. That's part of it. So a Dylan biographer praised the song

but noted there was no reference to Carter's antagonistic rhetoric, criminal history, or violent temper. And that's the thing. The song makes it sound like this guy was coming from church with a Bible in his hand and the SWAT team came and put him in jail and he'd never even been to the bar like that Or anywhere else and he was just on his way to go train for his next fight. That's all it was that's what it sounds like and so When you hear that, oh, yeah, Ruben Carter was a pretty good criminal before that then you go Oh, well, maybe that's bullshit. Maybe he did kill the guy.

But being a criminal doesn't make you a murderer is the difference. It certainly makes you respect and understand why he was under suspicion. That's the thing. Yeah, you could say, let's round up the ne'er-do-wells in the neighborhood. But then once the person who got shot says,

that's not the guy who shot me, then you move on to something else at that point that's continued the investigation that's yeah exactly in December of 75 Dylan performed the song at a concert at Trenton State Prison where Carter was an inmate at the time okay so that's that'll make you cool in prison though if the guy who came to perform for you is singing a song about you that's right that's pretty fucking there's a lot of people going, hey I'm innocent too. Can you write, my name's Bill, can you write anything about the story of Bill, is there anything there?

Lawyer fucked me. I don't have a cool nickname, lawyer fucked Bill, is that a good song? All right, I'll try to jot some lyrics down, you can figure it out from there. I don't know the melody really, but. A lot of things rhyme with Bill, if you look in the dictionary, I bet you'll find a lot.

Billy didn't kill, you can figure it out from there. Did not rob the till, you know what I mean? All that stuff, just keep it going. No blood was spilled, come on, I can go all day. Didn't dump her in a landfill, all that shit. So during the fall tour preceding this release of this album here, the Dylan and the Rolling Thunder Revue played a benefit concert for Carter in Madison Square Garden and raised $100,000 for his defense. The following year they played another benefit at the Houston

Astrodome for, again, toward his defense here. Whole tour? Jesus. Dylan met with managers Richard Flanzer, Roy Silver, who provided Stevie Wonder, Ringo Starr, and Dr. John for the concert as well. Unbelievable. After expenses were paid though, the Houston event failed to raise any money.

So, New York got 100 grand, Houston, they made nothing off of it. Stevie made some cash though. Yeah, for sure, for sure. So, he didn't know it, but he made some cash. Yeah, they paid him $100. They're like, this is a lot of money, Stevie. He's like, okay.

They were just ones, they were just singles. It sounds good. December 11th, 1975, they say that his case may soon be decided, is what the newspaper says here. Assemblyman Eldridge Hawkins has turned over a final report on his investigation of the Ruben Carter John Artis murder conviction to the governor.

So Governor Brendan T. Byrne, who they have the Brendan Byrne arenas named after there outside of the Meadowlands, was expected to give the report weight in consideration of whether to grant clemency to Ruben Carter and John Artis serving prison terms for three murders in a Patterson bar. Now, Hawkins is the chairman

of the Assembly Judiciary Committee, delivered the report to Byrne at the governor's office, and Hawkins, the assembly guy, said that he thought that Carter and Artis were entitled to a new trial and his report states such. Now Carter's lawyer January of 76 in the newspaper says that suppressed evidence is what put his client in prison. Yeah the attorney said that his client was sent to prison through a massive and purposeful suppression of evidence that could have helped his case.

I mean, that's, you know, yeah. He said the prosecutors were trying to protect the credibility of witnesses, Alfred Bellow and Arthur Bradley, who said they saw them running away. Defense attorneys at the trial were never told that the detectives promised the witnesses they would be treated lightly

for the break-in they were committing at a nearby warehouse. Now, also at the same time, this is also Carter's lawyer's fucking job to do research to know that these motherfuckers have gotten arrested and then to ask them, were you promised anything in this? And then they would say yes, a lighter sentence, and then you could weigh the information. Sure. So that's also shit lawyering at that point. But what lawyer was he given? Was it a state lawyer or was it a pay lawyer? No, he had a pay lawyer.

He had a pay lawyer. And this is, he said he didn't know and they weren't told, but you should have been looking into it. If you have two witnesses that say he saw them there, I'm gonna try to look into everything about these witnesses and take them the fuck apart, because that's all they have. You know, that's what a defense attorney does.

So look at the OJ trial. They took- Every person. A fucking someone who was just walking the dog saying I heard a dog barking they fucking broke that guy down we knew his whole television schedule we knew we watched it yeah we knew we watched Nick at night at 10 o'clock like we knew every fucking thing about this guy poor bastard poor guy he is that guy telling his TV schedule is like the saddest thing he goes I watch Mary Tyler Moore and then dick Van Dyke is on night court

This was before as a 90 so he goes and I take the dog for a walk and I come back and you know There's another dick van dyke and I watched that I do that every night Double dick take I do So yeah, they said that he wasn't told of this so now the the So, yeah, they said that he wasn't told of this. So now they assert that the omissions were crucial and that they were required under the US Supreme Court decisions in force at the time of trial. So they said they were required to tell us this shit. Now, that's a different, you should have looked into it,

but if they're required to tell you, then that's a different story. They also asked their clients be freed on bail while the high court decides the case. I don't think that's going to happen. The Passaic County prosecutor Burl Ives, yes, Burl Ives, not Burl Ives, Burl Ives Humphreys said there was no conspiracy to withhold evidence. He said defense attorneys did not attempt to bring out evidence of a deal that might have called into question the credibility of the witnesses because it didn't fit their defense strategy. Under close questioning by the seven Supreme Court justices, they said that the evidence

never came out might justify sending the case back for a new trial if the original trial has been a close case. They contended that the original trial did not depend on the testimony of Bellow and Bradley. What other evidence did they have? We went through it. And then they also said, this is the prosecution side, there was ample other evidence to support the convictions. Like what? Name one thing. They're alive. Yeah, they're alive and they're black and they live in Pasek. Otherwise, I don't know what the fuck other evidence there is. Yeah.

She struck him with her motor vehicle. She had been under the influence that she left him there. In January 2022, local woman Karen Reed was implicated in the mysterious death of her boyfriend, Boston police officer John O'Keefe. It was alleged that after an innocent night out for drinks with friends, Karen and John got into a lover's quarrel en route to the next location. What happens next depends on who you ask. Was it a crime of passion?

If you believe the prosecution, it's because the evidence was so compelling. This was clearly an intentional act. And his cause of death was blunt force trauma with hypothermia. Or a corrupt police cover-up. If you believe the defense theory, however, this was all a cover-up to prevent one of their own from going down. Everyone had an opinion. And after the 10-week trial, the jury could not come to a unanimous decision.

To end in a mistrial, it's just a confirmation of just how complicated this case is. Law and Crime presents the most in-depth analysis to date of the sensational case in Karen. You can listen to Karen exclusively with Wondery+. Join Wondery Plus in the Wondery app, Apple Podcasts, or Spotify. I'm Dan Tuberski. In 2011, something strange began to happen at the high school in Leroy, New York. I was like at my locker and she came up to me and she was like stuttering super bad. I'm like, stop f***ing around. She's like, I can't.

A mystery illness, bizarre symptoms, and spreading fast. It's like doubling and tripling and it's all these girls. With a diagnosis the state tried to keep on the down low. Everybody thought I was holding something back. Well, you were holding something back intentionally. Yeah, yeah, well, yeah. No, it's hysteria. It's all in your head.

It's not physical. Oh my gosh, you're exaggerating. Is this the largest mass hysteria since the witches of Salem? Or is it something else entirely? Something's wrong here. Something's not right. Leroy was the new dateline

and everyone was trying to solve the murder. A new limited series from Wondery and Pineapple Street Studios. Hysterical. Follow Hysterical on the Wondery app or wherever you get your podcasts. You can binge all episodes of Hysterical early and ad free right now by joining Wondery Plus. They went through the whole fucking thing. They didn't have guns. They went through the whole fucking thing. They didn't have guns. They had no matching ballistics.

One guy was still wearing the same outfit that he fucking had gone out in and had not a speck of blood on him, even on his shoes. And the floor was probably flooded with blood with three people bleeding out in a small room. One guy's wearing fancy ass specific shoes and no blood on them. Gold. Fucking gold shoes. Very weird. So they said that's wild. There's ample other evidence. He cited other witnesses identification of the car used in the holdup as the one they were found

there, and bullets found in the car matched the murder weapon, but they weren't the same bullets that killed the people. They were the same caliber of bullet that killed them. Very different. Yeah. In rebuttal to this argument, the defense side said that a grand jury returned no indictments after Bellow and Bradley came forward several months after the crime. So they said, maybe that's part of it. They said, obviously they were, oh, that's when they didn't issue the indictment. It was until witnesses. That's when you got the indictment. So the defense says, obviously they were the keys to the case. Let's be honest here.

Sure. Somebody's saying, I think I saw them in a car that matches the vague description of it. Yeah. They brought those bullets to the DA and they said, and yeah, and show me much more. This is not enough. They don't match. And the second search of the car.

And that's the other thing. Keep going. Yeah, you found that later. Okay. That's the other problem. The prosecution side also argued that the promises made to Bellow and Bradley were made by a detective, not the prosecutor, and were not strong enough to cause the jury to change its verdict if it had known about them. I disagree with that. I think maybe that would have helped a little bit. And the detective gave them their deal and then went to the prosecutor and was like, I told them this, so that's not good. If you ever watch an interrogation, the detective has no power to offer anything, even a reduction

of charges on something big like a murder. If it's a drug charge or something, they can cut you loose, that's fine. But if it's a murder, Yeah, if it's a drug charge or something they cut you loose. That's fine But if it's a murder, that's you're not gonna do that They even say that's for the prosecutors to decide and I can't offer you a deal here in this room But I can tell you that if you tell me I'll go to those prosecutors and say what a good guy you are And you're the perfect guy for deal best I can to help It's the justice Yeah to help. Let me help you. Yeah.

Justice Morris-Pashman observed that the US Supreme Court decisions applying at the time had held that undisclosed promises of lenient treatment need not be concrete, definite, and unequivocal. So it doesn't have to be anything in writing. You just had to offer that out to somebody that needs to be disclosed. That's retrial. I mean, it's pretty obvious here. Yeah. It's pretty bad. Pretty bad evidence.

Fuck yeah. So they said the defense said that they scarcely mentioned the recantations Bellow and Bradley made in 1974 that started this whole thing. They said, of all the issues we are raising, although we think the recantation is sufficient in itself, that is the least. Much stronger is the massive scheme of suppression perpetrated by the prosecutor's office and the evidence they failed to disclose. He also said that he was convinced Carter and Artis were victims of a conspiracy, but he added that the failure

to provide the evidence would dictate a new trial, would dictate a new trial just as strongly if the omission were accidental. Doesn't matter if it's even, it has to be a conspiracy. If it happened, you got fucked, that's it, period. Wow. So the, it's fucking ridiculous. So they entered the case, they entered the case

only after the judge refused to grant a new trial, ruling that the changed stories of Bradley and Bello did not have the ring of truth, that asshole, if we remember the ring of truth guy here. So yeah, now they're looking at it again, and Jesus Christ, how do you, I don't understand this at all, I really don't. That seems pretty open and shut, right?

Yeah, it seems like it. They talk about the movement behind Carter, Ali's involved, Joe Frazier's involved, Ellen Burstyn for some reason is involved, the actress, Bob Dylan, all these different people. So Carter and Artis have consistently maintained they are innocent and they were railroaded and that's the problem. Now during the hearing on the recantations the defense attorneys also argued that Bellow and Bradley lied during the trial telling

jurors they had made only certain narrow limited deals with prosecutors in exchange for their testimony. A detective taped one interrogation of Bellow in 66 and when it was played during the recantation hearing, defense attorneys argued that the tape revealed promises beyond what Bellow had testified to. If so, the prosecutors either either had a Brady obligation. If you've heard anything about true crime you hear a lot about Brady, Brady, Brady. Brady is you're not giving exculpatory evidence to the defense.

Yeah. That's a Brady violation. Or do, it's their duty there. So the judge though denied the second argument as well, but the New Jersey Supreme Court unanimously held that the evidence of various deals made between the prosecution and witnesses, Bellow and Bradley, should have been disclosed to the defense before or during the trial and could have affected the jury's evaluation of the

credibility of the... Absolutely. I'd love to. Get a look at your files. If you're a juror sitting there, by design, you don't know any of the people testifying. Absolutely. So you don't know how credible they are. Uh-huh.

So the only way to know how credible they are is by their deeds and their actions and what they present. And if you find out that they've made deals and stuff, then that takes away. I'm sure you sit there on a jury with a pros and cons column, like lie and truth column. This guy seems honest for this reasons, he seems dishonest for this reasons, and you weigh it out.

So they said the defendant's right to a fair trial was substantially prejudiced, the justice said, and the court is now trying to get them a new trial here. Okay, now they say they're gonna get a retrial. That's what they're saying. New Jersey Supreme Court said they're gonna get a retrial. The prosecutor decided that he will try

Carter and Artis again on a retrial. He said that he did not use perjured testimony and that Bellow had been polygraphed and by two different people and that he was telling the truth. So both men concluded that Bellow was telling the truth when he said he had seen Carter outside the Lafayette immediately after the murders. And we all know that lie detector people, polygraph examiners go to the detectives and say what do you want it to say? Because I can say it says anything. I mean, what are we talking about?

We're interpreting fucking a Van Gogh painting. It could mean anything. These are just heart rate peaks. That's all that is. Emotions that he feels. We can make it mean anything. That's that. So January 21, 1976 here. Yes, 76. There's a little interview here with Ruben

Carter here. And they say, question, I heard Bob Dylan and Muhammad Ali were supposed to team up on a couple benefits. Oh, no, this is asking the paper about the benefits. People call like writing into the paper. And they, I didn't hear any more about it. What happened? Did they help Carter? And they said, yes, they were held on successive nights, $100,000 for his legal costs, and all of that kind of thing.

Ali was booed at the garden for introducing a friend of his, a political candidate from the stage, a gesture that also displeased Dylan. Yeah. Yeah, because that's not bringing that into it. gesture that also displeased Dylan. Yeah. Yeah, because that's not bring that into it. Don't take this moment for this. Jesus. Yeah. So at Clinton, the inmates received the music

of Joni Mitchell, another of the star performers with coldness, prompting her to snap, "'We came here to give you love. "'If you can't handle it, that's your problem.'" Joni, calm down. You're in prison. What did you expect from your fucking, what did you expect from your like nice songs from, that's a fucking, hundreds of prisoners. That's not what they're here for.

Did you play Woodstock? Yeah! Yeah, so seeing what people are capable of, come on. Yeah, well that was, what were they capable of, fucking and doing drugs? Being a mess? It was a mess there. Oh Matt, being muddy? Yeah, yeah.

Yeah, that's it, being muddy? Yeah, yeah. Yeah, that's it. But they weren't, nobody at Woodstock was yelling shit at her. They were booing her in the prison? Is that what they were doing? Yeah, yeah. They were, nobody liked her. So that's fucking funny.

At least it's not fucking raining. Calm down, Joni. So February 5th, 1976, Ruben Carter is denied bail. So this is a request by Ruben and John Artis to be released on bail pending the outcome of their appeal for a new trial, and it was turned down by the New Jersey Supreme Court. So March 20th, 1976, Ruben Carter bail set at $20,000.

That's a pretty good deal. Yeah, and Artis was granted $15,000 bail. The court official said both men would be freed Saturday. The decision to grant bail followed a three-hour private meeting between lawyers for the two men and neither defendant was present for these. Carter remained at the Clinton Reformatory, a minimum security facility, 50 miles away, and Artis was at Leesburg State Prison, another minimum security place. Pretty low bail for two triple murderers.

Yeah, that's, I mean, you're real worried about them. So March 21st, 1976, they are freed from jail. They walk out here, not free men, but they're not in jail anymore. They were. Pending charges. They were done that. The Carter Artist National Defense Fund

put up 20,000 for Carter and 15,000 for Artists. And Carter was taken to the courthouse from the reformatory while Artists was brought there from Leesburg Prison. They appeared before a superior court judge, Bruno Leopizzi, that came before. Hey Bruno, let us out of this fucking joint, would ya? The defense attorney said they did not know when the new trial would begin. In a brief message from the bench from the bench

Leah Peetzee said all counsel and defendants have forbidden to release information about this case to the public and immediate. Seriously all you shut the fuck up keep it all under wraps you know what I mean? Yeah. Just lips fucking tight we're gonna go full omerta on this fucking shit you know what I mean? Carter told reporters afterwards after the hearing that you know, he's looking forward to not be Not looking for my jail. Yeah. He said that he's forbidden to make any judicial comments on other information Other than you know, what's in the public record. No new shit here.

The hearing room was crowded with reporters, including Muhammad Ali was there, he was just hanging out the whole time. Hundred people crowded in this parking lot to see him come out here. They were pretty wild. Carter's four sisters were in the crowd and present at his hearing. His two brothers were absent. The sisters indicated there would be a family celebration. Sure.

I'd hope so, Jesus Christ. Cocaine and all that shit. I don't think so. So now after 10 years in prison here, almost 10 years, here he is. Damn. He's hanging out with all these people and now he's like a celebrity.

Yeah. More than just a boxing celebrity. Now he's like, he's got all the cool kids like him. So they said, Ruben Carter said, that one man is Fred Hogan. If it were not for Fred Hogan, I'd be dead right now. Why Fred Hogan is that man, I don't know. But he's not a celebrity. They say he makes about $13,000 a year as a senior investigator in the New Jersey Public Defender's Office

He's they've called him a quote chunky 31 year old man Who talks tough like the cop and boxer he once was growing up in Bayonne? He he boxed in the police athletic league in 64 and through his interest in boxing visited Ruben Carter when he was at a training camp in Summit. And this guy said, Hogan said, my father took me out there and met a couple times. That's how I met him.

My father knew Ruben's manager. Now, Fred Hogan's guard, or Fred Hogan's father was a guard at the Hudson County jail in Jersey City, where Ruben's manager, Pat Amato, was the deputy warden. Remember that? Right. Wow. His relationship with Ruben was brief, they said, but they got close. The next year, Fred Hogan enlisted in the Army and was serving in the 24th Infantry Division in Europe when his parents mailed him the newspaper clippings of Ruben's trial and convictions. And he said, I knew in my heart that there was no way that Ruben did that. and convictions and he said I knew in my heart that there was no way that Rubin did that. So this guy got discharged from the army in 68 and joined the Atlantic

Highlands Police Force. Two years later he's hired by the Public Defender's Office for the Monmouth County Bureau. In his work he often went to Broadway State Prison to talk to people. That's when he renewed his Carter acquaintance who had been in there. Now he said he explored the case, this guy, in weekend visits he studied the transcripts of the trial and persuaded Carter to obtain other important documents. Soon he agreed with Carter that the prosecution's star witnesses, Albert Bellow and Arthur Bradley, had lied in their testimony in return for leniency. So he said, by the time I started looking for them,

Bellow was in jail and Bradley had just gotten out. I ran into a cellmate of Bradley's and went to his last known address in Wayne and tracked him down from there. I got his written recantation in May of 74, but Bellow didn't want to talk to me at first. Finally in September 74, he gave me his recantation. So this guy's been doing all the footwork.

All the free footwork here. Yeah, he delivered the recantations to the New York Times and that's how it got, that's how it became a famous fucking thing. So he brought him to the press rather than anywhere else, which is smart. So he said that he became involved here, the investigative reporter, that's the, he gave here, the investigative reporter.

He gave it to an investigative reporter for the Times, and he said that a guy named Solomon, Richard Solomon, who was a screenwriter, had also been deeply involved in the Carter case before anybody, you know, before it was cool. He said Solomon had urged media exposure of Carter's unjust incarceration and also had been the instigator of the Rubin Carter Defense Committee Which is how the guy got out of jail on the fucking bail money So it's a lot of people this isn't just one person or you know, a lot of people a lot of people involved Yeah had to do this, uh april 4th 1976 here. We got some quotes here. This is uh, Rubin the hurricane carter

You know what? Let's uh, let's let's give a let's give a In their own words here. He just did ten years for something He probably didn't have any shit to do it So I think we he deserves to get heard here in their own words quote if I am bitter Then I have a right to be bitter what you are seeing is a person who has been raped of his freedom for nine and a half years for crimes he did not commit, would not, and could not commit. Raped of his freedom! My God.

Yeah, not hyperbolic at all, right? No. I guess that's the, what other way to put it? That's as hard a word as you can use though, right? I mean, and it fits if he didn't do it. We got put in fucking New Jersey state prison for 10 years, what other word can he use? I mean and it fits if he didn't do it. We got put in fucking New Jersey state prison for 10 years. What other word can he use? I don't know. They raped my life you know like fucking terrible. Is there a synonym that fits? I mean like we've

said there's lots of words. We can use lots of different words. A rape cinnamon? He did that. No, no, no. A rape cinnamon. Rape cinnamon. That's a very bad man named Rape Cinnamon. No, I feel like that's very on purpose. Yeah. You should see that word. It should jar you because it's jarring what happened to me, I feel like, is what he's

doing. I mean, it's essentially a crime. I mean, you could say I was kidnapped for nine years, you know what I mean? Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Because that's what's happened. What's stronger than raped of my freedom? Yeah, what's stronger than kidnapped?

Rape! I think raped of my freedom is, yeah, kidnapping, rape, murder is the 3-2-1. I wasn't murdered of my freedom, but definitely raped of it. Definitely raped of it though, yeah. Someone took something that I still have, but still they took it, and that's my freedom. They're like pirates, they plundered my fucking, my freedom. They plundered it.

Raped it. Yes, like a, plundered it like a butthole, not good. Plundered my butthole of freedom. My butthole, my freedom butthole, they plundered it like a butthole, not good. Plundered my butthole of freedom. My freedom butthole, they plundered it. They came in and just tore it on up with shovels and everything. Gaped it. Gaped it out. So April 15th, 1976, Carter's defense team wins a delay in the retrial, I guess to gather

more evidence and all that kind of thing here. So they said there was a heated discussion over this in court, but they said that they're definitely gonna do it. And the prosecution says it's unfair. Oh. Yeah, he said it's unfair that they get a delay. It's like you've delayed his life for 10 years.

You've had nine years to wrap this up. You should have all the evidence you need. That's what I mean. Jeez, you should have had everything by now. Oh, we got even more evidence, holy fuck. So April 19th, 1976, the gag rule on the trial is disputed. They're trying to get the gag rule off because the defense says it subjects him to citation for

contempt of court and possible bail revocation for violating an order which is far from clear in its scope and thereby has a chilling effect on his First Amendment rights. Sure. He doesn't even know what he's allowed to say to not get thrown in jail. You could just basically anything he says you could just throw him in jail. The brief pointed out that there's no reference in the order to the prosecution. It said the only statement in the order which includes the prosecution is the following. Yeah, it's just you guys.

Hopefully all participants will refrain from any extrajudicial statements intended to or which may affect the integrity of the trial. That's it though. That's just fucking what the defense has to shut the fuck up Which is interesting It's just Gamesmanship really that's giving an advantage to one side. That's not okay. Yeah Oh, it's also scaring the shit out of him

So he can't say anything because that's that's what they're afraid of is this public Backlash on this and that's the problem. Yeah, because people will lose elections over shit like that. So ruin my life over this terrible decision that we've made. Oh shit. So here is from New York Newsday, May 9th, 1976. He's out. And here's kind of like a night in the life of Ruben Carter when he's out waiting retrial. Ruben stood in the center of the ring last week in the Capitol Center in Landover, Maryland. A little man in a suit much too big for him. His shaved head gleamed in the overhead ring lights. Tears came from his

eye that is blind and the one that isn't. He's blind in one eye? When the hell did that happen? What? He went blind in one eye. Jesus, they raped his sight too. Yeah, they took the eye that recognizes a good fitting suit. Yeah, his depth perception's way off. I thought the suit fit. That is a big bummer. Every time they let somebody out of prison, they always put them in a suit that doesn't fit and it makes you feel so much worse for this guy. Now you look terrible. Yeah, it's a suit from like 12 years ago. for this guy. So now you look terrible, yeah.

It's a suit from like 12 years ago. It's what it always is. Like 48 hours, that always tripped me out. Eddie Murphy gets out, and they put him in like a slick suit and he's like, motherfucker, that suit would have butterfly collars. That shit was from five years ago, it's from 76. You'd have, that thing would be way out of fashion right now.

Every time it's an exonerated man, even if it's a brand new suit, it never fits right. And you just go, aw, this poor cop. Yeah, because it's an exonerated man, even if it's a brand new suit, it never fits right. And you just go, oh, this poor cop. Yeah. Because it's always just somebody who went to men's warehouse and said, I think he's about this size, and then got him some awful fitting baggy suit. Give me a 48 regular. And he wears like a 44 short.

Yeah. It's a 42 short. His fucking hands don't pop out of the sleeves. It looks awful. Can't even see his thumb, this poor fuck. Oh man, that's great. He said he made a short, courteous wave and the small crowd that had paid to see Muhammad Ali fight Jimmy Young stood up, cheered and became a large crowd.

Carter ducked through the lower stands of the ring ropes, took a helping hand and bit his upper lip and said, damn. He said it a few times. Then he said, uh, it's what I was telling you. The people have gotten crazy. Wonderful. Crazy. Yeah. People are different. Try to do that. Bite your upper lip. It's definitely an, a lower lip bite, but he must've actually got his upper lip. Yeah. It's upper. They say, I mean, does he have a fucking underbite? with actually with his upper lip. Yeah, it's upper, they say. Does he have a fucking underbite?

How would you bite your upper lip? We have like an itch. Sometimes we have a nose itch. You kind of pull it down like that in one of those. Gary Goldman loves that. He's constantly licking his upper lip, with his whole bottom lip. It's bizarre.

Interesting. It's a very strange. That's might be a tick about being paranoid about your lips getting dry. Maybe, maybe. I can see that being a thing. He's about your lips getting dry. Maybe, maybe. I can see that being a thing. He's always grabbing his top lip. That's interesting.

That's not a natural thing. No, no, no. You've got to have that as a habit or a tick because who bites or licks their top lip? That's weird, yeah. That's a strange one. So they said there had been a head-to-head conversation in Carter's hotel room earlier that day. He sat on a hard chair and I used the corner of the bed. He said, quote, I'll talk to you

because I've known you for a long time and you were never bad to me. But a magazine story put me in jail, got all the cops in the country thinking I was the enemy. I don't want any more written until I'm done with the thing, until I'm Ruben Carter, vindicated. Then you can write your ass off. Okay. So he said, so he talked about his trial, his nine years, six months, and six days in prison, whether or not he will get a new trial,

and how being sentenced to three life terms to run consecutively is longer than forever. Yeah, those things he said, we'll wait for Rubenen Carter vindicated. But we talked about other things, too. The fights he had that I had covered, how his trainer had massaged my back into shape in Philadelphia once when I had when a disc slipped. There were even laughs. He said his fight in 1964 with Joey Giordello for the middleweight championship. Giordello was the champ. We have the press gathered in the state office building for the weigh in

when the chairman of the Pennsylvania Athletic Commission announced that both men had weighed in in the secrecy of his office and that each weighed 160 pounds. Which, I weighed them, they're fine. Don't worry. The fight's gonna go on. He's, Ruben said,

old Joey had to weigh like 172 pounds, but they didn't wanna call off the fight and I wanted the title and needed the money money I'd have fought Joey if he weighed 200 pounds. Oh is that right? Yes I didn't give a fuck he didn't win the championship but he did get his money they say he said we talked about the night he knocked out Florentino Fernandez in one round at the old garden Florentino fell over the way a tree falls in his dressing room Ruben was being congratulated on the ferocity of his left hook and Carter threw off the hands of those who wanted to pat his back.

Damn it he said don't tell me how good it was it was sickening that man might have been hurt real bad that man could have been me. Oh so he's a nice guy yeah don't don't act excited because some dudes in the hospital now feel good that I drilled him wow that is a different type of different type of thing for boxers. Usually they get through that shit. That's a guy that doesn't murder people, James. Usually they're not big murderers, those guys who are worried about that. The guy goes on to say, sure I remembered that when Carter and John Artis were convicted of shooting three people to death in a Jersey saloon, but I remembered an afternoon at Eshens, a training camp in Summit, New New Jersey Carter brought me into his quarters in the back of the camp and it was his arsenal

Rifle shotgun small arms were all over the room. He picked up a Luger and threw it at me. Ain't that a honey? He said I Said he was crazy. He was a convicted felon and he'd land right back in the can if anyone ever saw those weapons Oh hell Carter said everybody knows I love target practice, but I ain't making a show of them. You're not going to write it. And I didn't," he said, this guy. In a Maryland hotel room, he also talked about the campaign he put on in prison, how he read

to educate himself and how he telephoned looking for help, and how after years of telephoning the help came. White actresses, black champions, writers, grocers, and truck drivers came. He said, I got help from people from all over the world. People went crazy to help me. All wonderful good people and they came to help me. He said the help came because he never allowed himself to think it wouldn't. He said, in prison all I did was work and hope. I wouldn't admit to anyone that I was a criminal. I wasn't. I wasn't buddies with the law either. I was like a guy on the fence at high noon. My shadow fell on both sides, but I didn't. Jesus. Interesting.

He said, prison life has withered the muscles that threw those vicious hooks. To call him Hurricane anymore would be making fun. He weighs 147 pounds and he fits them into 10-year-old clothes made for 160-pound athletes. Yeah. he needs to anchor himself in a hurricane now. Yep, that's, he's got to hold on tight. He said in the right eye stares vacantly, a prison operation for a detached retina didn't turn out right and they blinded him in a fucking eye. I'd sue for that shit too, you guys suck. But it's a new life, he said. I realize that all of us are programmed for dying. I'm going to try to do what I can do to make each of us programmed to live, to be alive and love it.

I owe that to a lot of people." Wow. That's what he said. He loses his gag order repeal, by the way. Yeah, so there's no... He's not allowed to talk. Can't talk about shit. June 7th, 1976, Philadelphia Daily News. Headline is a phone call and a week of shock. Okay. A torturous sequence of events began after

my appearance on the May 30th edition of Meet the Press. This is from Chuck Stone who wrote this. Chuck Stone. That's a, isn't he on TV? No, that's a man with a flat top is what that is. I'm Chuck Stone. He, an old friend called me the next day to congratulate me. Chuck, this is Carolyn Kelly. It did my heart good to see you on the program.

We all watched it here in the hospital. What hospital? Was she sick again? I hadn't talked with her since Reuben Hurricane Carter had been granted bail in March for a few weeks. Carter, accompanied by Carolyn in her capacity as national coordinator for his defense committees, went from Miami to a Connecticut hideaway trying to readjust to the precious elixir of freedom. Where are you calling from, girl? I jokingly asked. Florida, Connecticut, or Newark? You trying

to get some relaxation and make like you're sick? Chuck, I'm in the crippled children's hospital in Newark. I'm in traction. Crippled children's. Ruben beat me and tried to kill me. What? Is what she said. Shock is its own crippler,

an emotion that stops time and reason. I tried to grab at just one of the thoughts rushing by. Ruben, what, where, when, why, what happened? Quietly and with painstaking detail, Carolyn recited an astonishing story. She described the furniture in Carter's hotel room where the attack allegedly occurred and recalled the agony as she lay on the floor

and as she charges, Carter sat on top of her choking her. Oh my God. A piece of my world collapsed too. You read my two columns on Reuben Carter this last March. I saw this beautiful, strong black man, a symbol of resistance to the massive injustices suffered by black people. Like Angela Davis, Joan Little, and the Wilmington 10,

and Reverend Ben Chavez, Carter has been victimized by a criminally unjust and racist system. What I recalled most about him after our interview was his indomitable capacity for restraint. He kept his angerers in check and talked forcefully, yet with glacial control. He was a cool dude and he talked of enlarged

philosophic truths and promised to work forever for the complete liberation of black people. Carolyn and I had known since my work with Adam Clayton Powell. In fact, after Powell was lynched by Congress, a Philip Randolph appointed, oh, a Philip Randolph appointed as head of the New Jersey Committee to support Powell. Periodically we talked over the phone, but as happens to all of us, our new imperatives intrude on our lives we move on to newer challenges. Carolyn and I spoke briefly during a mass rally in March in Trenton last October. Would I write about Carter? Get involved? I jumped in with all four feet. This past February she appeared on my TV program On Target and

did such a superb job that several people wrote in asking her to help them with their loved ones in prison. A few days later, she helped arrange my interview with Carter in the Clinton prison. When I left him, I felt as if I had discovered another black hero who would walk in the footsteps of Malcolm X. Like Malcolm, Carter had been garroted by the systems inhumanity. Like Malcolm, he was struggling to be born

again. Since Carolyn's emotional, emotion-draining phone call, I've talked three times with Reuben Carter. Our conversations at his request have been off the record. He is in strong denial of Carolyn's charges. Yet I know Carolyn well, and few things have troubled me more than to see this tragic twist of events fracture a beautiful mosaic of black togetherness that she and Ruben Carter had been building. How, unfortunately, a few questions about the hurricane are in my mind that weren't there before I talked to Carolyn Kelly."

Okay, that's not good. And then it comes out that it was the next day Carter faces new accusation. And that's from her. Now it comes out that it was the next day, Carter faces new accusation. And that's from her. Now it comes out publicly. Carter said her story was false. Sure. Okay, yeah. Which is interesting.

She's, I don't know, who did this to her then? Did she fall out a window? I mean, what the fuck happened? I don't foresee him confirming it, you know what I mean? That's true, I did. That bitch gets mouthy, you know what I'm saying? Let me explain. There's no, give me a sec.

Hello, one sec. Carolyn Kelly, who's 41, was a bail bondswoman who led the Carter Defense Fund movement in New Jersey, said that the alleged attack occurred on April 29th. She was admitted to the hospital on May 16th. That's a long time. Yeah. 18 days in a statement released through his attorneys. Carter said Mrs. Kelly had been demanding money from him and had threatened to go to the press with the false story she told today. But who hurt her then?

Someone had to hurt her. She like fucking have somebody beat her up and sue, I don't know what the, but April 29th to May 16th is a long time to. Sure is. If you need like serious medical attention, that's a long time to go without it. But June 9th, she's coming out here,

Carter's accuser defends her story in the newspaper here. Carolyn Kelly, she's defending, she dismissed as laughable Carter's countercharge that she demanded $250,000 from him. In a television interview Monday night, Carter said that Ms. Kelly had demanded the money after complaining to him that she had suffered heavy losses by neglecting her bail bonds business while working to obtain his release from prison. So okay, in a telephone interview yesterday from her room in Newark's United Hospital,

Ms. Kelly said that she had spent at least $50,000 of her own money on Carter's behalf during the 15 months she had at the Defense Committee and that she never asked Carter or the Defense Committee for repayment. She estimated that she had lost an additional $300,000 to $400,000 in bail bonds businesses. She said, the people in New York Defense Committee handled all the money. In New Jersey, I bought everything. I put over 13,000 miles on my car, shoes on his feet, the coat on his back. I paid $7,000 worth of phone bills from the day Ruben Carter called and asked me to work for him. Wow that's a lot of money. She said that I guess when he did come gave Carter $500 to pay expenses for herself, Carter and three

security men to attend the Muhammad Ali Jimmy Young fight. So she paid their expenses to go there. On that trip, she charges when she was beaten and threatened by Carter after she went to his hotel room on April 29th to ask him for $66 to pay for her hotel room. Okay. $200,066 are a big difference of an ask. She also denied published reports that she is in love with Carter. Oh yes.

She said I never even saw Ruben Carter as a man, just a cause I guess. She said that she would be no longer work for Carter's cause but she has not yet formally resigned from the committee. Meanwhile a spokesperson for the prosecutor's office said that a motion relating to the Carter case has been filed with the county judge and that's all they would say. So this is presumably containing recommendations to revoke or revise the terms of his release on bail. So trying to get him back in here. She said, the woman, Kelly, said that it was not her intention in making public statements

about the beating to have the bail revoked. She said, I don't think jail is the place for Ruben Carter. Well, if he just beat you unmercifully, why would you say that? Where would you want him? What's the place you can send him? Exactly. Lord of the Flies Island? Like, where do you fucking send this guy?

She said, I don't think jail's the place for him, but I couldn't think about him anymore. I had to think about the people in the streets being able to separate the man from the cause. I want to prevail on people. If you do good things, do them for the cause, not the person. You're talking to the only person in the world

who knows the real Ruben Carter, and even I was misled about his mentality. So, this next up up a few days later the Indianapolis star says beating charges reveal dissension disarray in Hurricane Carter's corner. Holy shit man. So people believe it and some people don't. Some people don't now they're fighting over that. So Kelly here they call her a 41 year old divorce a

Who was constantly on her side carter saying she concocted the story So it's it's pretty fucking interesting here Now george lois the executive the advertising guy who started this whole thing to get him out Said that he resigned in march because m March because Kelly became a divisive force and for a period of time manipulated Ruben Carter. Oh. She said, he said that, Lois said, I'm a white guy, but Kelly is black

and apparently tried to convince Carter that she could help him become the quote, next great black leader. She said, this guy said her problem is that she fell in love with Ruben. She probably turned on him when he told her that he wasn't gonna leave his wife and kid for her. That's what, that's the guy that worked with her.

Probably a sexual relationship that he had no intention of taking further and she wanted further. Something that's kind of what he's insinuating here. So yeah, this is wild. She said she's insinuating here so Yeah, this is wild. She said she's discontinued her Bell Bonds business and Yeah, I guess supporters of Carter cite numerous inconsistencies in her version of the incident They point out that although she said she had been seriously injured She returned alone to Newark and waited 17 days before entering a hospital

Yeah She returned alone to Newark and waited 17 days before entering a hospital Yeah Carter asserts that she made her demands for a $250,000 payment under threats that she would smear him at two meetings before she entered the hospital She seemed to be perfectly healthy both times Rubin said Interesting the former boxer said he had agreed to pay mrs Kelly for her work on the new committee through a salaried position or through a percentage of future earnings. He's trying to sell his movie rights to make an autobiography and had hoped to make lecture

tours. He said insisting that revenge was not her motive, Mrs. Kelly said she had made her charges because she believed that Carter possibly required psychiatric help. I'm just trying to help him. That's all it is. Yeah, I need a doctor to look after him. She said it's ridiculous for Reuben to say I was trying to shake him down. There's no money to be gotten. He didn't have that money, that much to say that people would have paid him for. You can't get blood out of a turnip.

Okay. can't get blood out of a turnip. Wow, blood out of a turnip is a good title for the show. I like that. He's likely got, if winning, if he's gonna be victorious in all this, he's certainly got a story that's worth a shitload of money. Oh, it's, yeah, he's definitely gonna have Denzel Washington play him someday. That's interesting.

I'm gonna have Denzel Washington play him someday. That's interesting. So one of those who said he was eliminated by Mrs. Kelly and Lois is Richard Solomon, the freelance writer we talked about. He said, Lois saw Carter as the ultimate advertising campaign. He and Carolyn Kelly became more interested in counting press clippings and turning Rubin

into a national figure than in the judicial issues of the case. Solomon said he and other committee personnel who had opposed the high-pressured media campaign were characterized as negativistic by Lois and Kelly. He said they got more wrapped up in the process of selling Rubin than what had started out to do, which was give him his day in court. Right. Yeah, there you go. So July 20th, 76, again he's appealing this gag order. They're not, shut the fuck up. They're not going to let you stop.

They're not going to let you say things. Why do you want to talk about it? I don't get it. He is told though now July 22nd to stay in the state and report weekly. The order was issued after nine days of closed hearings on a request by the prosecutor to revoke his bail. So they're trying to revoke his bail and he's saying no. Yeah, because he's got the opportunity to be out there in front of people and if people

want to look up and find out about his story, even if he's not talking about it, somebody, if he doesn't say it, somebody else can. They're gonna, yeah, that's, I mean, they're gonna ask him about it, he can say no comment, but they can talk all they want. You can't tell Muhammad Ali to shut the fuck up. He'll stand up in the center of a ring and tell all, Ruben can just stand there and Muhammad Ali can say it

and they'll believe it, they'll listen. People will fucking listen. Absolutely. So, finally here, his gag order is lifted in July of 1976. So he can finally talk now. But then four days later, July 30th, the headline is Court Puts Leash on Ruben Carter. Wow, they overruled the appeals court

and placed a tighter rein on the out-of-state travels of Ruben Carter. Interesting. Carter's out on bail, obviously. They said in a story first reported in the Daily News by Carolyn Kelly, who participated in the movement, her charges led to the limitations put on his movements. So someone believes her.

So he could travel to New York as long as it involved his defense. Otherwise, he has to stay in New Jersey. So there's that. Now, August 7, 1976, he's getting shit on again in court here. He loses an appeal for free travel during preparation for his retrial. He wants to be able to go wherever he wants. He lost a bid to have the state pay the estimated $30,000 course cost of a defense investigation

into the case. So he's trying to get the state to pay the bills there, which if he had public defenders, they do pay the bills, but they have to approve it first here. So August 11th, 1976, more motions are readied now. This is a lot of court stuff going on here. So they're trying to get the charges dismissed here. They're saying that the murder indictments be dismissed

or that their coming trial be shifted from Passaic County away to somewhere else where people haven't heard quite, they've all heard the fucking hurricane song is the problem. Yeah, Muhammad Ali's screaming about it too. That's gonna happen. Yeah, so the dismissal motion will be made on the grounds the grand jury that indicted Carter and artists

did not have a proper number Of minority group members, so that's a that's an appeals case there So they said that the change of venue request will involve a sample of Passaic County residents polled by the national jury project And they purportedly showed that Passaic County residents are biased against Carter and an artist so the yeah, so the defense says they're gonna try to get a movement here away from this place and maybe that'll help. August 13th, 1976, $70,000 aid to Grant Carter's retrial,

or Grant to Aid, not Aid to Grant, Grant to Aid the retrial here. The Grant will hire three lawyers and four investigators before the retrial, which is a big deal. That's honestly what you have to have. If you have one lawyer in a mountain of paperwork, they can't find the little things. They're too busy looking for the big things.

Everybody has to have different assignments. If you've ever seen the staircase, watch the staircase. It's a great thing of how an actual defense comes together. And these people are sitting there all fucking day, every day with a whole team and a white board and what did you find and what did you find? You talk to our investigators. It's a huge fucking thing. It's not just one guy going, this is the key to the case. I'll win it. And that's one murder.

Huge. This is three. Yeah, this is fucking three murders. Exactly. Really good way to put that. So August 24th, 1976, they say he's out from one charge. A Maryland prosecutor won't act on the criminal complaint filed against him by the woman in the hospital. So they're not going to charge him with that. Really? Yeah. He said she said she that he punched kicked and choked her into unconsciousness and They said nah, it's good So September 7th, that's when they're arguing the change of venue a little bit more

They obviously want out of where people are biased against them. It makes a lot of fucking sense. They're gonna retry him. Absolutely Yeah, they're not gonna fucking they're not gonna just go. Well, we tried So his trial is then shifted to Hudson County in late 76, in September of 76, and to Hudson County, a judge ruled they could not get a fair trial in Passaic County because of prejudicial newspaper coverage. So they said local newspapers in Hudson County

had covered the Carter artist case in a balanced, reasonable, factual, and unimpassioned manner. That's what the one person said, but the judge pointed out that the that Hudson was a 10% black population in about the same Passaic and and would help ensure jury selection fairness. So the defense was hoping that the judge would shift the trial to Essex County, but they said that a Newark newspaper versus coverage favored Carter and Artis. They said that was unfair because it was too favorable to the defendants. One had all this negative shit about him and then Newark had all positive shit about him, so he can't be in either place, which is interesting.

They go on to say here, this is strictly a black and white situation, and if anyone thinks that for a moment that Ruben Carter and John Artis can receive a fair trial in Passaic County, their thoughts fly in the face of reality. Yes. Flying in the face of it. God damn it.

It's embarrassing. Embarrassing us all. October 12th, 1976. Here he goes. The retrial is going to start, but they say in this headline, the money stars are gone. Carter's trial starts today. Now there's no Bob Dylan, Muhammad Ali's not there. It's all gone. Stevie Wonder's not hanging out with him. They've lost his luster. It's a new news cycle. Doesn't matter now. Yeah. I love the opening line of this article is Ruben Carter isn't a beautiful person anymore. Oh, and beautiful person capitalized capital BMP to show like one of the beautiful

people. One of the incredible. They said a year ago, the X fighter was the rage of Madison Avenue as media superstars and their promoters organize rock concerts and rallies on his behalf, Muhammad Ali, Joan Baez, Stevie Wonder, Isaac Hayes, Bob Dylan wrote the song The Hurricane with its imagery of a proud black man victimized by the Patterson police. Today, the celebrities have gone. Most of the promoters have dropped from the Carter camp. His entourage has been split by dissension and name calling. Oh boy.

Oof, man, that's rough. They said. These people don't realize how long activism takes. Like if you want change, you better hang the fuck on, man. It takes a long time. And Carter's lawyers are working for free right now. His Freedom for All Forever committee has run out of money and owes an estimated $100,000.

Oh, shit. So that is, he's fucked here. They said his image was tarnished when the woman said, when Kelly said that he beat the shit out of her and that's part of the whole thing here. So yeah, that's, I mean, that'll do it. But we don't even know if that's true. That's a good point.

We don't know if it is or isn't. We have no fucking idea here. But I guess on June 7th she charged from the hospital bed that he'd beaten her. That was later on. She was in the hospital for like months. What is going on? And she waited 17 days to go to the hospital?

She wasn't that bad of shape. Then she's fucking in the cripple ward for a month. Like that seems very interesting. Yeah, and it goes back and forth those two. Kelly filed a one million dollar damage suit against Carter in the state of Maryland. So that's how that goes. She's trying to get cash there. She said, what Carter did was send Richard Solomon out to get all the famous people for the concerts. As soon as Richard Solomon finished that, Carter did was send Richard Solomon out to get all the famous people for the concerts as soon as Richard Solomon finished that Carter did what he always does does when he used people he kicked them out. Yep she said they said that Mrs Kelly wasted Carter's money by lavish use of limousines to take celebrities to appearances on his behalf asserts John Webster, the current treasurer of the Freedom for All forever.

He said she ran up $2,200 limousine bill during the weekend of his March release, ordered limousines to chauffeur Muhammad Ali and others, and he said she was only acting out of Carter's request. He said, you know, be classy if Muhammad Ali's come and send a fucking limousine. Don't go pick him up in your fucking Saturn. But Richard Solomon said she came in like a whirlwind and she seemed to go out like a whirlwind. I would say the minute Mrs. Kelly came in, the whole atmosphere became charged with

a kind of racial quality is what Solomon said. He said, you know, it was different than before. He said it's true that we had to make Ruben Carter a hype to make him viable to get his day in court, but what happened after that was sickening. Unfortunately, it takes a Bob Dylan to wake up the conscience of a lot of people. Yeah, he said, wow.

They said, when she made those complaints, though, his martyrdom was stripped from him, as the Lois guy said. They said that made it so nobody wanted to be around him anymore, because they didn't know. He said that made it so nobody wanted to be around him anymore, because they didn't know. Carter said his money problems result from his not being able to travel and speak freely, because the gag order.

He said, this court has effectively denied me the right to earn a living. Freedom ain't free, man, you need money. That's, I believe that was, you know, kind of parrots raised later on for Toby Keith He's like what that guy say that time in the seventh the fucking the boxer Bob Dylan wrote the song But what fuck do you say yeah? He said freedom ain't free the hefty fucking fee. I think About beer and horses and whiskey horse man or some shit some horse shit? I don't know what the fuck he's talking about.

So Carter said that there's probably opportunities to speak in New Jersey, but I don't want to speak in New Jersey. New Jersey's been very dangerous for me. Oh yeah. Okay. He said I'm still in prison. The courts are my prison, but you're not in prison. So don't say that.

All right. So attorneys for both the prosecution and defense joined in a motion to dismiss 500 prospective jurors in the new murder trial because the panel may have been chosen unconstitutionally. So they gotta start over again. Now, Carolyn Kelly, the one again who is in the hospital, has been hospitalized again.

This is October 1976. What happened? For further treatment of injuries she claimed were caused when Carter beat her up in April. Wow. She said she entered the hospital paralyzed from the waist down on Thursday. How bad did he beat her? I don't know. She said sharp severe pains in her lower back recurred last Thursday when she fell back in a chair in her office. She said this is the second time she has re-entered a hospital since Carter allegedly beat her unconscious. She and she,

Carter and others were there to watch the fight. So Kelly has filed a $1 million lawsuit against Carter saying that she, he quote, maliciously and with prison-like rapidity, struck her and knocked her to the floor. She had to put that in there, prison-like. Struck her and knocked her back into the floor, then kicking her in the head, back, arms and legs. That's her claim. And yeah, she said, I was heavily sedated

and not aware of what I was signing at the time, saying that she was under the impression she had filed a complaint when she gave police a statement. So now she's saying, I don't even know what I was signing at the time, saying that she was under the impression she had filed a complaint when she gave police a statement. So now she's saying, I don't even know what I was doing. I was heavily sedated. I don't know what I wrote, yeah. This is very weird. Last week, she charged investigators

from the Passaic County's prosecutor's office with trying to pressure her into signing a statement against Carter at her office. What do you want? You've been saying statements in the newspaper, what the fuck? Right, what's the difference? I don't understand that shit.

So I don't get it, it's just fucking weird to do that. They said, I absolutely deny the idea of pressure or misconduct, the interview was done, it should have been done, and it's the same as any other. That's what the prosecutor said. So anyway, October 20th, 1976, new judge for Rubin here. So he's not going to get the old judge here, which is helpful, actually. Not bad. October 30th, 1976, Bob Dylan sued for the hurricane song. Uh oh. Yep, Patricia Ann Valentine, old Patti Valentine,

actually filed the suit to halt any further public performances of the song. Oh! How the fuck you stop someone from singing it? That's pretty wild. The suit also seeks a fair and equitable share of all money earned on the song by Dylan. What would that be?

12 cents? You got mentioned once. You got name checked in it. Yeah. I don't know. It's 2024. I barely remember it. Did Tupac give Biggie a cut of Hit Him Up? I don't think he did. You know what I'm saying? Like you could write a diss track about somebody and I don't think Kendrick Lamar has given Drake a cut of his fucking money here. Did the Knicks get a little piece from Biggie when he told the story?

Yeah, yeah, that's what I'm saying. Did fucking Anthony Mason or Alan Houston or whatever have to talk about that shit? That's fucking interesting. So they're saying that she wants all the money, that equitable share of all money earned on the song by Dylan, his co-writer, a Columbia Records and Warner Brothers publication.

And also seeks $30,000 in damages for invasion of privacy. She said the song presents her in an unfavorable light in such a way to make her appear predisposed to testify against him. She is scheduled to testify at the retrial here for the prosecution against him, which is exactly. The song makes it sound like I'm testifying against them. Hold on a minute, I gotta go testify against them.

I'll be right back. I'm gonna get sworn in. Give me a million dollars. Okay, wow. So here we go, November 19th, 1976. Key witness is missing. Oh, which one? Kent Kellogg, possibly a key witness for the prosecution

in the retrial of Ruben Carter and John Artis here, has disappeared, the newspaper says. By late morning, however, the prosecutor's office reported that they had a quote, a line on where the whereabouts of Kellogg and expected to find him before the end of the trial. If he's found, he's expected to be used to collaborate or corroborate testimony by Bellow that he believed it was Carter who came out of the Lafayette Grill with a shotgun seconds after three people were murdered. So in the 1974 hearing when Bellow recanted his identification of Carter, Kellogg testified

that Bellow had told him Ruben Carter shot up the whole bar on June 17th, the day of the murders. Kellogg, so that's hearsay anyway. It's, I mean, but it's, they're gonna put it in court. He said that he said it. Kellogg also made the statement that on October 20th, 66, to a grand jury, the attorney for Carter said, we would tear him apart if he's brought up here Kellogg accompanied by Bello and Arthur Bradley on the night of the murder

He was the guy helping to break into the fucking sheet metal shop Attorneys who have watched Bello testify in the last three days said they thought he appeared to be a quote buffoon A member of the prosecutor's department said buffoonoon, no doubt about it, it's all up after this. I don't know what that even means, but okay. If the prosecution believes Bellow is the low point of its case, the defense believes he's crucial to the prosecution's case because he was the guy who put him in jail to begin with.

So if that makes sense here, the prosecution believes Bellow's testimony now, despite the lies admitted to under cross-examination, will dovetail with important testimony given by other witnesses. We'll fit it in. Now Bellow at one point said he was not worried that the police might be in the area of the Lafayette Grill because his friend was trying to break into the nearby factory. Some of the jurors just smiled at that. Like, you weren't worried the cops were around even though you were breaking and entering. When Bello said, I'm not a Houdini,

I can't remember everything, the audience laughed at him. Because who the fuck, was Houdini known for his memory? Is that what he's known for, you dummy? He also didn't break into things, he broke out. Yeah, he broke out of things. Well, he said, I can't remember everything. Yeah, made it sound even dumber. Whether they believed him or not,

I can't answer that, one attorney said. Other attorneys said it would be futile to speculate how the jury is reacting to Bello. He said, I think they're paying close attention, one certain jury said. I hope so. Jesus Christ, that's fucking funny. The prosecutor here said, I'm worried about the young people,

a prosecutor said, because they tend to be skeptical of the police. Yeah, that happens. So that's what they said and they're trying to do this. Carter then says, quote, he does a television interview where he says, quote, I'm a lawyer. Oh, okay. Okay. Interesting. That's odd. He sits attentively at the defense table flanked by his attorneys, but he's not a lawyer. But he said, quote, I'm a lawyer.

He said, I was only a boxer while pursuing my destiny. Now he said he's pursuing his freedom, fighting for his life, and he doesn't want his attorneys alone to bear that weight. He said, I studied his freedom fighting for his life and he doesn't want his attorneys alone to bear that weight He said I studied law in prison for ten years. I understand the language of the court I prefer to be I prefer to be identified as me I want to be involved in this battle together talking about his attorneys. Yeah Okay, interesting that is Okay, interesting. That is fucking wild.

So he's still sitting in the awkward in the in the courtroom here. Here's a quote from an article. He sat in the courtroom yesterday with his bullet head and nicked eyebrows and blue tinted glasses and goatee brushing against the top of his black turtleneck shirt. Don't call anyone a bullet head when they're on trial for shooting someone, please. Don't use the word bullet at all. Don't use the word fucking bullet. That is just very fucking stupid.

There's talk about he sat at a curved table of blonde wood with his feet on a light red carpet. In the front of the room was a gray-haired judge with a muffin face. What does that even mean? Oh, potato face. What's a muffin face? I've never heard that before. I think it's just like a fat face. I guess. Like muffin tops coming out of your...

And on the witness stand was a woman named Catherine McGuire. She had a purple fedora tilted over her left eye and a voice that did not change as she maintained that she had once lied during a trial to provide Ruben Carter with an alibi, but now she dealt with the truth. He had not been with her on the night the people were killed. So now he's got people recanting. So Carter's attorney Myron Bell-Doc poked at her through the morning, but the woman did not seem to become confused. The jury members consumed her words. They did not yawn or cough or rearrange themselves in the seats. The case grows tough, is what they said. I would say so.

So now, I guess, it came out of, oh yeah, okay, nevermind here. Okay, the first trial in 67, she said she had, she said her and her mother had been in a saloon with Carter, then went home with him at the time the murders took place. Okay. But now it's 1976 and people have lived lives that have changed.

She says she does not date Ruben Carter anymore. That was his girlfriend. Catherine McGuire says she's engaged to a policeman and what she has to say is different. Oh. They said, when you testified in 1967, would you say that you were with Ruben Carter? Or you say, what time you say that you were with Ruben Carter? Or you say did you what time do you did you say you were with Ruben Carter? She said 215 and what did you say happen? He brought us home

My mother got out and I sat in the car for a few moments Then I got out and he drove away and I was on the porch awhile and I saw him pass again 15 minutes later Was that true? She said no They said did you know it was untrue when you true? She said no. They said, did you know it was untrue when you testified? She said yes. They said, was there a night when he did drive you home? She said yes. They said, could that have been on June 17th? She said no. They asked why? She said, I would have remembered that. The night the people were killed and I would have said to myself, I was with him that night. So at lunch Carter drove with two relatives to a cousin's house on the outskirts of

the city. He sat with a mug of coffee and looked out the dining room window on a gloomy day. And they said, what did you think of her as a witness? And he said, I've lost my perspective. So many lies. She was tougher than you'd like her to be, somebody said. Of course she's tougher. She has to go home

to that police officer, is what he says. He's whippin' her ass, you know what they're like, the worst of boxers. She's gotta go home to a cop after he knows that she sucked my dick. The prosecutor's trying to prove a consciousness of guilt, is what Brubein says. He said he spoke, they say he spoke in prison library

language while he finished his coffee and had a cigarette. Time, gentlemen, a cousin named Bubba said. Carter slipped into a leather couch coat, a black leather coat, couch coat, where the fuck did that come from? And he and his cousins drove back to the courthouse. As Rubin stepped out of the elevator onto the sixth floor, a woman from the sheriff's office said, he's on the bench already. Carter walked to the doorway, hands rising automatically for frisking, and then he went into his ring, the courtroom. Oh boy.

Here we go. They said it was so hushed that the creaking of a spectator's leather jacket was disturbing. Yeah, he's got to battle with 12 champions over there on the jury box. Gotta do it. Here we go, we'll wrap up with December 4th, 1976. They're in court and they're saying Carter and Artis's statements conflicted, as what the jury are told.

The ones from more than 10 years ago. Passaic County Detective Chief Vincent DeSimone read into record statements he said he took from the defendants about eight hours after the shooting deaths. In the statements, Carter and Art escaped conflicting of accounts of their whereabouts and they also conflict with testimony read into the record on Thursday. They said on Thursday the state read the 1967 trial testimony of John Bucks Royster, who is now dead.

At the first trial, Royster testified he was in Carter's car with Artis and Carter when it was stopped by the police on the night of the crime. In the statements DeSimone read on Friday, neither Carter nor Artis mentioned being with Royster during their travels to and from taverns that night. Uh oh. In his statement to DeSimone,

said to have been taken at 1047 a.m. June 17, 1966, Carter didn't mention giving Ms. Kathy Maguire and her mother a ride home from the Night Spot Tavern between 215 and 230 a.m. In 1967, Carter used that story as a key item in his alibi defense. Ms. Maguire last week recanted her testimony saying that she had taken him home. Carter's alleged statement to DeSimone also differed from Artis's in that Artis said he and Carter went to the Club La Pettit at 10 p.m.

and they left together for the night spot at about 11.30. He told DeSimone they stayed at the night spot until it closed at about three. Carter told DeSimone he left his house at 10, went to the night spot alone, stayed there for 20 to 30 minutes, and then went to Club L'Apetit alone. He also made no mention of picking Artis up in his car. Carter also told DeSimone that it was testified that he and Artis went to Richie's Hideaway. He allegedly said that he went in alone and stayed until midnight, then left with Artis 30 to 45 minutes later.

In his June 17th, 1966 statement to DeSimone, Carter didn't mention where or when he picked up Artis. Artis allegedly told DeSimone that Carter picked him up in his car about 10 p.m. on Governor Street, and they both went to Club La Petite. This is very confusing, and it's all fighting each other. Although neither mentioned picking up Royster and taking him home in Carter's car,

Patterson said that, or Patterson Sergeant Theodore Captor said that there were people in Carter's car when it was stopped at 240. So there was a third person in the car when it was stopped. That's in the police report. Artis also told DeSimone that Carter never left the night spot while he was with him and that there was never anyone else,

but he and Carter in Carter's car that night. So there's very different stuff going on. Too many conflicting stories. A lot of conflicting stories. Now, these states trying to prove that Carter fabricated his alibi and therefore established a consciousness of guilt. It also seeks to prove that Carter fabricated his alibi and therefore establish a consciousness of guilt. It also seeks to prove a motive for the killings linked to the slaying six

hours earlier of a black bartender by a white man. So the prosecutor called that motive. He's saying that they were mad that a white guy shot a black guy so they were going to shoot up this whole bar. That's the motive here. Shot five white people because a black guy, so they were gonna shoot up this whole bar. That's the motive here. Shot five white people because a black guy got shot. Yes, that's what he's saying. So Patterson detective Edward Callahan was the second Patterson policeman who testified that an angry crowd of blacks gathered outside

the Waltz Inn after the bar. Roy Halloway was killed by Frank Conforti, that was that night. Police had to form a cordon to escort Conforti, who was arrested at the scene through the crowd to the police car. Give us him, give us him. We'll take care of him, Callahan said.

The crowd of 25 to 30 spectators were shouting. That shotgun slaying occurred at 8.15 PM. Three whites were killed at the Lafayette Bar at about 2.30, six hours later. The state claims the link between the two shotgun slayings is Carter's friend Edward Rawls, who is Holloway's stepson. So because he knows the dead bartender's stepson, he's gonna go slaughter a whole bar. Right.

The state intends to prove that Carter and Ardiss spoke with Rawls on June 16th, learned of his stepfather's death, it's not even his real father. Right. What the fuck are you talking about? And the murders in the tavern are so personal. They're very, they're way different. At least the one is incredibly, why would you destroy a woman's pubic area over a black guy getting shot somewhere else? That's not what happened. Okay, here's the thing. If I'm, and I'm not a detective, and you're not a detective, but I'm an Occups Razor guy, and if I walk in and I see one guy shot in the back,

the other guy shot wherever, and then I see this broad really shot up good, including in her crotch, I go, okay, well, here's our target. This is obviously either made to look like a robbery so it wouldn't look like whoever wanted to kill her wanted to kill her, or they're just taking out anybody else in the room for no witnesses.

Right. But either one. This seems like it's against her. Doesn't seem like robbery is the main motive, because no money was taken, except by a guy who wasn't involved in the killings. It seems like, I mean, from outside or looking in, and lots and lots of crime stories I've heard, it seems like somebody was angry that she rebuffed their advances.

That's where I would start. Shit. Left the bar, came back with a shotgun, said, fuck this bitch. I could see that being very poor. Her boyfriend pissed off that she went out to the bar that night because he told her not to go, or her husband, or whatever the fuck it is. That's who I'm looking at first. She's shotgunned in the shoulder and shot twice in the pussy.

I mean, it's... Yeah, come on. Come on, man. When all the small town murders, there's never any violence toward the pussy that's not very personal. Right, right. And we've done hundreds of those.

Never, that's a personal... I've never heard of a woman shot in the junk because they're eliminating all the witnesses. That's not usually the way that's done. They usually aim higher, lots higher. Well, a little bit higher. The head, the chest, things of vital organs. So both Carter and Artis in 66 told DeSimone that they were aware of Rawls' stepfather's death that night. Artists, however, said that he and Carter never, didn't come up at all.

It's not like we drove around talking about it, getting pissed at it. They said, yeah, we knew about it. And we were like, oh, he got killed. It's fucking New Jersey. People get killed sometimes. So they said Callahan also testified that Rawls and two other persons went to Patterson Police headquarters

between 955 and midnight on June 16th and demanded to see the man who killed Holloway. Two other persons, but it's not Artis and fucking Carter, so who cares? Callahan said he told the men police were booking the suspect and Rawls told them, if you don't do anything about this, we sure as hell will. Okay. He said he didn't know Rawls at the time, but learned his identity from Holloway's widow. So the Patterson detective also testified that the purse and wallets of the Lafayette victims were not stolen or disarrayed, suggesting that the robbery was not the motive for the killings. It's not. That's what I mean. So, but they're using that, the prosecution's trying to say it wasn't robbery, it was just retaliation.

Whereas the reality of it was, somebody wanted that lady dead and these guys were in the way, in my opinion. That's just my opinion. So they said that on Friday, four bullet shells recovered from a Lafayette grill were introduced into evidence. On Friday, Artis' attorney, who was cited for contempt of court for the second consecutive day when he accused judge Bruno Leopizzi of quote, shooting from the hip during a legal argument.

Sir. Wow. Another gun reference. Damn it. Damn. I'm telling you, Steele charged the judge with deciding on the evidence before Steele presented his argument against it. Leo Pizzi withdrew the contempt citation because he said he realized the parties in the trial were fatigued and under pressure and he didn't want the contempt citation to affect Steele's representation of his client. Callahan also testified that Rall's statement to Patterson police outside the presence of the

jury, Leo Pizzi's to decide today if Callahan will repeat that testimony before the full jury. The defense also challenged DeSimone's method of questioning Carter and Artis on June 17th, alleging their clients were not informed of their rights. DeSimone said both men raved their rights and gave statements voluntarily. DeSimone said Carter said, quote,

I don't need a lawyer, use my fists not guns. That's a great fucking line. Damn good point. That's a that's a guy you'd be scared of. Yeah. You know I don't need a lawyer use my fists not guns. You'd be like oh Christ you're gonna kick your ass. My guns are on my left and my right. They said that artists appeared to have been drinking that night, but neither defendant was hostile during questioning. And they're also talking about Kelly, the woman he allegedly beat up, the former chief fundraiser was ordered by a judge to appear and to possibly testify

for the prosecution at their retrial. I don't know what she would know about a murder that happened 10 fucking years ago. What would she even know then? They're trying to show later bad acts? I don't know what that is. That's what I mean. To me, nothing that happened after 1966 matters

in this trial and can't be brought up. So whether it's a bad thing like this or a Bob Dylan song, either one is irrelevant to this trial. So in an affidavit filed said the statement she is alleged to have given the prosecutor's office concerning Carter contained information and or influences which were wholly false and untrue. Now she says this after she had accused him. She never signed the statement which said in part that Carter told her he had recovered a stolen shotgun from Neil

Morrison prior to the murders involved in the case That's what they're saying. So the second part of the statement Allegedly given by Kelly concerned what she heard in a telephone conversation Carter had with Fred Hogan a public defenders investigator So shit, you can't use somebody to spy on someone while they talk to their legal team. That's not okay. You can't do that. So no matter what, that's private information that you can't, it's whoever's there. So that's, that makes it looks like she's like an agent of the prosecution. She's standing there doing that. That's fucking nuts. So, um, yeah, we'll, we'll finish up with Kelly here. So according to the unsigned statement, the Hogan guy asked Carter what response Carter

should give reporters when questioned him about a charge by Alfred Bellow that he was offered a bribe by Hogan to recant his initial testimony, meaning Carter's guys offered him money to be on their side. So Mrs. Kelly said she never inferred from listening to Carter talk on the telephone that Hogan had paid Bellow a bribe to recant his testimony. She also said she never mentioned a shotgun concerning the alleged recovery of a weapon for Morrison.

She said, I said a gun, not a shotgun. That's what it was. Mrs. Kelly contends before Leo Pizzi that the statement she gave is totally false and she could be brought before a grand jury. The statement allegedly was taken by Martin Cain, an assistant county prosecutor, in the presence of three investigators. Mrs. Kelly broke her friendship off with Carter, claiming he assaulted her in a hotel room where he was not charged. She's since filed a suit against him for damages, and the suit is pending. She's since filed a suit against him for damages and the suit is pending.

They ruled that Mrs. Kelly did not have to comply with the second part of the subpoena requiring her to produce documents, contracts, and other written materials concerning the Carter defense fund. Why that sounds like it could even, oh, one guy said why, that sounds like it could even include a love letter. We don't want to be involved in that. So, okay, let's close that out. We'll return next time with closing arguments and we'll find out what the fuck happened in this trial and is he going back or is he free here? So we'll find out all of that stuff next week. Before we get to that though, certainly you definitely want to head over to shutupandgivemurder.com, get your merchandise, get your tickets for live shows, September 20th in Minneapolis specifically, get those, and because the next night in Milwaukee sold out,

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A mere cup of coffee. Instead of a cup of coffee, you're gonna get hundreds of back episodes. This will last so much longer than a cup of coffee. Like, so much longer. And then you get new ones every other week. A crime in sports, a small town murder. You get them both! What are we gonna do?

Separate these things? No, no, no. Jesus, no. We're trying to bring people together, not keep them apart. So why let them keep the shows apart? This week for Crime and Sports, we're going to talk about the whole Duke-LaCrosse fiasco. Has nothing to do with sports whatsoever, has to do with frat parties and strippers. So we'll talk all about that. Then, Duke really has a lot going on with that between the fuck list and this. North Carolina must

be boring. Yeah, it is boring around there, not a lot going on. It's quiet would be a good way to put it. So that said, also for Small Town Murder, we're gonna have Brian Koberger, we're gonna talk about this whole Idaho murder disaster and just the fact that I just don't like this guy. I'm telling you, one of those guys. His fucking face sucks.

And I tend to be like you know withheld judgment but there's so much DNA yeah it's just so much there's just so much for Christ's sake there's just so much evidence that it's just a lot it's a lot and he's so smug about it we really got to make fun of this asshole he's such a hateable guy he really is so we'll talk all about that That is patreon.com slash crime and sports is where you find all of that. Also, while you're there, listen to, well, not there, but while you're out in the world, listen to small town murder, listen to your stupid opinions because that shit is banging. So we really want you to check that out. Please do that. Keep coming

back and seeing us. That said, I'd like to hear the name, just all the names, give me the list of the most wonderful fucking people of the world who have donated to our Patreon and have kept this show rolling and keeping it a thing. Jimmy, hit me with them right goddamn now. This week's executive producer is Jalen Petrie. Thank you, Jalen. Thank you. You are amazing.

You're wonderful. Other producers this week are Liz Vasquez, Peyton Meadows, Gary Howard, Emma Reagan, thank you Emma. Thank you guys, all of you. Ethan Preston quit vaping. I don't know how hard that is, but I quit smoking and if it's that hard, it's all good for you Ethan. It's all nicotine.

Yeah, and who the fuck knows what else is in a vape. That's crazy. Addicted to some heavy metals of some weird kind. I can't imagine. I'm so glad that I came up with just cigarettes. Yeah, right? Janice Hill, continuing. Jody Pettigrew, Peddinggill, Peddinggill, yeah.

Peddinggill. Kyle Gough, Gothorp, Jesus. Brendan with no last name. Bree 94, Sean Gilbert, Mallory Mottman, Hannah D. Ott, D-ott, Yeah, DeOtt, all right. DeOtt. Danielle, Danielle Hurst, Amanda Sloan, Tina Phillips, Madison Schooneman,

Sarah Clinton, Kristy with no last name, Guillermo Ramirez, Casey Pakula, Tanya B., Chris Palmier, Leslie Donovan, Henry Wills, Wells, fuckin' shit. Gianna with no last name, Kiki would know last name, Shannon Roeder, Patrick Burns, oh, Tad, Tad, T-A-D-G-H, how the fuck do you pronounce that?

Is that Todd? Beats the fuck out of me, you're the name guy, I don't know. O'Leary? You never have any answers when I hit you with a town name, you're always like, I don't know, I don't know. O'Leary. You never have any answers when I hit you with a town name. You're always like, I don't know. I don't fucking know either. Johnny O, Lillian Lucy, Mackenzie Ortiz, Nicole Paulson.

Oh boy, Tercilin. T-R-C-I-L-I-N. What is that? Wow. Tercilin. Is that a penicillin that solves something else? I don't know. Maybe.

Tercilin? Is that a real name? Maybe that person. Fucking shit. Kelsey Kelly, Colin Kuhn, Marcus Piccola, Jen Bruce, Donna Johnson, Erica Tremblay, Amy Erniecy, Jason Warner, Chris Rutt. I mean, I mean mine. Okay, all right.

Donya, Devonyaanya Devanya Stevens. Kel Lampere Brandon Oh, hi, nah Say Ohio I know like a Spanish girlfriend. You're high. Yeah Brandon would know last name charmeleon a selling boobs McGee. I know that old boobs It's a it's got I'm sure it's or it's a really cool check a guy. Old boobs. It's a guy. I'm sure it's a guy. Or it's a really cool chick. There's no way it's a cool chick.

What's happening? Boobs McGee over here. 100% it's a dude, right? He likes boobs, I think, maybe. Yeah, that's what it is. Ezekiel Aho, Cinderella Barbie 72, Emily Bennett, Brianna Brianna. Might be a lesbian.

What is it? Might be a lesbian. Oh, Boobs McGee? Yeah, it's a chick, but she also loves boobs. It's both. I still think it's a lesbian. What is it? Might be a lesbian. Oh, boobs McGee. Yeah, it's a chick, but she does also loves boobs. It's both. I still think it's a dude. I do too. Emily Bennett, Brianna Brown, Pickles with no last name, Abigail Boesler, Sarah Nowicki, Janet Clark, Jessica Page, Kelly Brock, not LeBrock, just Brock, Ashley Libby, Max would know last name. Gabriel Densley, Colin Kerfoot. Stacey Rose, Trevor Jones, Lindy Lendl. Lindy Lendl.

Cy? Cy Whitco. Elizabeth Ludwig, Giselle De Silva Martins. Ashton would know last name. Tabitha Santoni, Emily Rounds, Norma DiMaggio, Lisa Chamberlain, Andrew Brunel, Raheem would know last name. Dan Cloppel, Sharon, nope, that's Shannon Sellers, Tara O, Christian Gore, Brianna, nope, that's Brittany, Brandon,

Isaiah Powers, Kristi Ayers, Lisa Culpepper, Lars Hollander, Erica Martinez Rodriguez, Simp Tam, I guess that's a name, Andrea Champ, nope, that's just Camp. Yes, that's a name. Andrea Champ, nope, that's just Camp. Yes, that's a name. Sarah DiGiovanna, Jessica O'Dell, Jordan Family Six, not the fifth one. Robin, with no last name, Amy B. Ryan Lindahl, Jordan Downs, Kristen, no, it's Stewart, Stewart Nisley. Why did I say, all right.

Suzanne Murphy, Tanya Hill, Leona Corbett, Jamie Wissgallow, Wah-lo, all right. I don't know, Lilithan. I don't know. Lilithan and Bridget with no last name, Taurus Albert, Cher Strong Local Weedia. She's a local weed gal, I guess. Cher Strong. Hey, well I like it.

Or Cher Strong Local Weed. Share your strong weed with others. Just maybe a lady named Cher. The Lee Sacks. Kaitlyn Hallam, David Brainy, Stacey Bissell. Oh, of the fucking vacuum fortune. Jordan Woods, Chris C., Ashley with no last name. Rebecca Serena, Herbert Amaya, Janet,

nope, yeah, that is Janet Anderson. Rachel with no last name. Trudy Neshida, Jecica Tower, okay. Yeah. It may be Jessica Tussisa, that's Jecica, right? I don't know. That's what I would, sounds like it. Yeah, Shawna with no last name, Amanda Lillian.

Hope Grattix, Ulysses Moore, Nicole Hess, Emma Patrick, Amy Ferrick, Caradade, Caradotti, Wilson, M. This show brought to you by the letter M. Jennifer Bedford, Garrett Catalana, Ashley Alexander, Linnea Kelly, I don't know, Joseph Kilpatrick, Olivia Effin, this show also brought to you by the letter E. Christine Capp, Matthew Vuk, Chance Parks,

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It's Eric Louder's and Melissa Rush. Two different people. Oh, together. Same patron. Kara Eric Louder's and Melissa Rush. Two different people. Oh, together. Same patron. Kara Foxley, Money Wealth 123. That's where I get all my money information. Knoxa with no last name. Ryan Christophic, Lionheart091, Joy Coy.

That's a fun name. Tom Kohler, Val with no last name. Lorraine Candelario, Terry Barnes, Tammy Becker, Debbie Zasso, Sean, nope, that's Sarah. Sarah Burroughs, not Sean Burroughs, it's definitely Sarah Burroughs, and I'm a terrible reader, but I love every patron. Not the old third baseman.

Thank you everybody so much for your wonderfulness, your support, and your believing in us that we will keep coming back every week. And thank you, because we will keep coming back every week. We have nowhere else to go. What else are we doing here coming back every week. And thank you, because we will keep coming back every week. We have nowhere else to go. What else are we doing here? So thank you. We're here for you, dammit.

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find out did he ever fucking get out of prison for good or did he go back or maybe we'll find out if we did it or not we'll find out all of that next week live from the Crime and Sports studios we will see you next week If you like crime and sports, you can listen early and ad free now by joining Wondery Plus in the Wondery app or on Apple podcasts. Prime members can listen early and ad free on Amazon Music. Before you go, tell us about yourself by filling out a short survey at Wondery.com slash survey.