Crime in Sports - #423 - I Am Denzel - "Hurricane" Rubin Carter - Part 4

Episode Date: August 27, 2024

This week, we finish up this epic tale, waiting to hear if Rubin will be convicted, for a second time, in his retrial. He is sent back to prison, and furious to be convicted with the same, shifting evidence. This time, Bob Dylan & Muhammed Ali aren't there to help, either. Rubin never gives up the legal fight, but the state also isn't backing down. Will he ever be free? Plus, Denzel Washington plays him in a major & successful movie!!Get let out of prison, just to be put right back in, refuse to do any prion work, or wear a uniform, and have one the biggest stars in Hollywood play you in your biopic with "Hurricane" Rubin Carter - Part 4!!Check us out, every Tuesday!We will continue to bring you the biggest idiots in sports history!! Hosted by James Pietragallo & Jimmie Whisman Donate at... patreon.com/crimeinsports or with paypal.com using our email: [e-mail] Get all the CIS & STM merch at crimeinsports.threadless.com Go to shutupandgivememurder.com for all things CIS & STM!!  Contact us on... twitter.com/crimeinsports [e-mail] facebook.com/Crimeinsports instagram.com/smalltownmurderSee Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Wondery Plus subscribers can listen to crime and sports early and ad-free right now. Join Wondery Plus in the Wondery app or on Apple Podcasts. I'm Dan Tuberski. In 2011, something strange began to happen at a high school in upstate New York. A mystery illness, bizarre symptoms, and spreading fast. What's the answer? And what do you do if they tell you it's all in your head? Hysterical, a new podcast from Wondery and Pineapple Street Studios.

Binge all episodes of Hysterical early and ad free on Wondery Plus. Hello everybody and welcome back to Crime and Sports! Yay! Yay indeed, Jimmy. Yay indeed. My name is James Petragallo, I'm here with my co-host. I'm Jimmy Wissman. Thank you for joining us today on another crazy edition of Crime and Sports as we wrap up the Ruben Carter story, the story of the hurricane as Bob Dylan said.

We're going to wrap it up this week. This is part four. Have we done a four-parter or have we only done three-parters? I don't know if we've done a four. I think we've done three. So Ruben, but I mean, it was so famous and the story was such a big deal. We haven't had a lot of athletes that Denzel Washington played in the movie. You know what I mean?

So it happens. And you gotta call everybody on their bullshit because he wasn't as nice as they say he was. No, he wasn't as nice as they say he was and he clearly I don't think was a murderer either as they, as the other people said he was. Rubin is just a complete, he's a big ball of misconceptions of everybody's bullshit so we'll get into all that quickly before we do that shut up and give me murder.com is where you get all of your everything that has to do with either this show small town

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where you get all the bonus material so much of it anybody who's five dollars a month or above you get tons of episodes hundreds of episodes you've never heard bonus stuff new ones every other week one crime in sports and one small-town murder and we're gonna give you all of it just take it all this is all we got just everything that we throw out the front door. You want to be on the front lawn to collect it, you can. This week we have for you for Crime and Sports. We're revisiting one of our favorites. We have to do it quarterly. And it's that time again. Theme park disasters are coming again. It's been since the spring. So let's get into that since we're in kind of late summer now. And then for Small Town Murder, it's a banner week everybody, we're back again.

The Prisoner Dating Game is here. So you can't beat it. If you were wondering on the fence about signing up for Patreon, I think this is the week. You're getting the best stuff, so it's gonna be amazing. Do that, patreon.com slash crime in sports, and you get a shout out at the end of the show as well, where Jimmy will mispronounce your name

Oh sure, even though we'd love to get it correct He really would and the ones you get correct are funny sometimes too because people are like no one ever pronounces that right Yeah, and then other ones are like you got like Smith wrong and it's like wow So you never know you never know The I did. You never know. That Jackica wrote me. Her real name is Jessica. Her mom spelled Jessica with C's James. No, no. Two C's? Two C's. Jackica. Or Jack-chicha. Jack-chicha. Either one if you want to do like Italian style. Or yeah, wow.

That's you. That is a big no is what that is. Jackica is your name. You'd be very mad at your parents for that. The soon as I'm 18, I'm changing that on my birth certificate. I am so sick of everybody fucking that up. Full epidural blasting, and she writes Jecica. I want to name my kid Jecica. You know you're not supposed to get drunk before you have a baby, right? It's okay.

Jecica because a beautiful name you know if you mix morphine and booze it's not it's a weird mix all right let's get back into Ruben Carter here we go let's clean this bad boy up here it is 1976 and we are nearing the end of his retrial we talked talked about last episode, we ended up with the whole Kelly lady who said he beat the shit out of her in the room, the guy that, you know, the lady who headed his defense fund and all that kind of stuff. So we are at the end of this, and it is December 21st, 1976,

so right before Christmas 76, and this is the closing arguments of the retrial for multiple murders here for him and artists. So his defense attorney described the state's case against artists and Rubin as ramshackle and poorly built. And said solid, solid garage band name. Yeah, ramshackle, poorly built, poorly built ramshackle would be a, solid garage band name. Yeah, Ramshackle poorly built. Poorly built Ramshackle would be a very good garage band.

And also a shitty garage. So it said that it would not hold up under scrutiny as well. Well you just had a trial, that's scrutiny. I think a trial. That's as scrutinizing as it gets, right? Yeah, if you were going to say, let's scrutinize this situation, someone said, let's have a trial, we'll get a whole panel of impartial jurors and a judge. I don't think us scrutinizing is enough.

I think we need 12 strangers. And a lady typing it up there. And if I like, that's a lot. You know what I mean? That's scrutinization, I would say. So they said attorney Myron Bell-Doc in a two-hour summation to the jury said that the attempt to establish racial revenge as a motive was quote no good dirt No good dirt. No good dirt

He labeled the state's key witness Alfred Bellow the guy who was robbing the fucking crime scene as the police arrived Quote a liar and a thief who was out to get what he could in exchange for his testimony True hard to argue any of that shit, I would say here. So he said, the state is telling you Ruben Carter was a mad racist killer, because they were saying it was revenge for that other killing, out there on the street hatching a plan to massacre white people. And then he- In his Sunday best.

Yeah, he's going, yeah, people with fucking gold shoes on out to let's massacre. Hold on, let me put my cracker killing shoes on. Wait a second. I have bright gold. I wear my bright gold shoes to murder honkeys. All right. Fucking laced them up. So he said that then he points out to the jury that there's that he currently lives

with his family in a very white neighborhood. So he doesn't obviously he obviously doesn't hate white people he said there are two major cons in this case Alfred Bellow and the racial killing theory those are the cons of their case and they're both bullshit I said he goes on to talk about Bellow being on parole admitting he was acting as a lookout for a robbery and then said, while I'm here, might as well rob a place where dead bodies are on the ground. Real nice guy. So they said, prosecutor though, he said in his closing statements that there were six

major strains of evidence that form a rope strong enough to bring two murderers to justice. Well let's not use that word. I was just going to say. In a race killing. Let's not go with rope metaphors, please. I think we can avoid that, probably. When there's two black guys on trial for a race killing, how about we don't? I feel like when you say that, you almost do like a big,

slow wink to the jury. Like, you get it right? As he holds a fake handle of a rope and kind of twists upwards. You get it. Now he had to acknowledge the prosecutor that his key witness, Bello, was a quote, thief, conniver, repulsive and disgusting. That's your key witness. I don't want to be calling me that ever.

He's a conniver and a thief, so that means he's a liar. And disgusting. But you should believe him now. Yeah. And also said he was acting to save his own skin when he testified. But he said that doesn't make what he said less true. He said that Carter and artists knew that Bellow could identify them, and that the only way Bellow could protect himself was to put the killers away

before they put him six feet under. So now, with no evidence whatsoever, you've just posited to the jury that not only did they go in this bar, massacre everybody, but then they planned to silence a witness by murdering him, when no one ever mentioned that, and that never came up once and there's literally less than no evidence for that. But you're going to put that in the jury. Solid. That's wow. Oh my God. He also said about the revenge motive. He said the facts are hideous but so are the murders. The motive is repulsive but so are the murders. Okay. Yeah.

Now, the defense was challenging the honesty of the Passaic County Detective Vincent DeSimon. He said DeSimon had been the architect of the racial revenge theory for the murders and that DeSimon looked away from the evidence. He says there was no robbery in the bar, but the register was open and there was cash on the floor. That's what the guy says. So he goes, that would say it's probably not a racial revenge if they're like, I'll steal while we're here. But the defense said you have no evidence except in the mind of Chief DeSimone, these were racist killings. Right. Yeah. So this has been interesting, though, because some of the witnesses who gave alibis

for Carter at the first trial retracted that in this trial. So like some of the stuff that was in their favor, there was also stuff that was against them for this time. So it seems like it's still the same amount of evidence on both sides here, but not a lot of evidence. And everything is based on the identification of a complete liar and scumbag obviously. So artist's attorney Louis Steele said the jury was being asked to speculate in areas where the prosecution did not supply evidence. Right.

Like, you know, that he was, Bello had to tell on them or else he was going to end up dead based on what? What the fuck are we talking about the fuck are we talking about here? He pointed out that there were no police reports on the distinctive taillights that had led police to stop the car. The butterflies. The butterflies, yep, because I was going to say, remember the butterflies, the butterfly effect here.

He also noted that the two witnesses near the murder scene had described two different sets of suspects leaving the bar. Steele claimed that a staggering number of state witnesses would have to lie for you to get to where the prosecution wants you to get. Steele also said that artists had been held in the police station for 17 hours after the slayings, which nowadays if they interrogate someone past like six, seven hours, it's garbage basically. It might get thrown out and they know that.

They know that they have a limited number, amount of time. You can't just keep them there for two days and be like, he'll crack eventually. You know, he said if he were guilty, then they would have had a statement out of him that night, sign sealed and delivered. 17 hours would break somebody.

It should, yeah. So yeah, this is interesting here. So nine hours of deliberation the jury does, which seems like you'd need more than that, but okay. And they find Ruben Hurricane Carter and John Artis guilty of three counts of murder again. Wow. I don't know how that's fucking, how? How? What? I don't get, like, we don't know how that's fucking how. How? What? I don't get like we don't know what happened obviously but based on this trial how do you take Bello at his word and say well that guy I'm sure was telling the truth. Where's how do you there's no evidence that they were there. That's the other problem. There's no evidence that they were there for

that there's no evidence they had any reason to do that. Yeah, and I feel like there's any evidence that they were even inside the establishment none, right? It's what and I think they stopped there at one point didn't they but they left I thought they were stopped outside there by police. No, no, no police got them later Please I pulled them over later because they've gone to a couple different spots So this is eight men four women found him found them both guilty which is just fucking incredible They said obviously they're gonna appeal these convictions again because this is crazy Yeah, it's kind of fucking silly Interesting here Carter stood he they said he removed some money from his wallet and handed the wallet to a relative in the second row

Both defendants spent a few minutes shaking hands with their family and doing all that shit Artists left carrying a Christmas stocking which had been handed to him moments before the verdict was announced up. Jesus Christ I hope it's nothing you can use on the outside. I Hope this is full of ramen noodles and fucking, ramen noodles and shanks I can make or something. He said, you be careful driving home to somebody and his family, and that was it. They just, they went back there and they,

this is wild, I don't get it. I don't know what they heard, I don't know. I'd love to know who talked who into what in that jury room, because that's crazy. Who said what to make them, they had to, right? I don't know, man, and it's weird because they said that the vibe in the courtroom for the last few days was it felt, the defense felt like it wasn't going for them.

It just felt like, yeah, there's a vibe in a trial. It's a room full of people. You can have a vibe of the room full of people. And Carter's lawyer said that Carter said he had been very pessimistic about the verdict the last few days. He thought this was going to happen. Steele said that artists told him that he fought a good fight and had done the best he could. And he said his client wanted to be tried with Carter and not separately if

they get another retrial and during this one. So the lawyer said, I expected a verdict tomorrow. But they came today. They asked the prosecutor, what do you think? And the prosecutor said, they got a very, very, very fair trial. Very, very, very fair trial. Very, very, very. Yeah. No.

When you use the word very that many times, you're an idiot. You're also a liar. That is also usually a sign of lying, but, and also you're dumb because you couldn't come up with another word but very. Just say they got an extremely fair trial. Yeah. Yeah. One of the most fair.

Possibly the most. The fairest of all time. So the prosecutor went on to say, in my judgment, the American jury system is the greatest instrument of justice in human creation. The contest between the American jury system and Madison Avenue is no contest. In other words, you can put Bob Dylan and Muhammad Ali and whoever you want out here, the jurors will see through it all. Right.

Yeah. Anyway, Carter's lawyer said the main error in the trial was allowing the prosecution to introduce the racial revenge motive with no evidence whatsoever to that, which is really crazy. He said, I don't think that has changed. I don't think that much has changed in America. It's still easy to make people feel black people will kill white people for race So they said that um they have I guess they're they said they're gonna try to

Keep their clients free until sentencing so they can be home for Christmas So that's the uh that is fascinating about our about our judicial system is that you can appeal guilty, but you can't appeal not guilty. Yeah, no, there's no way to... Well, that's to protect... That's over. Yeah, that's protections for people. The government has enough protections in there.

It's on their side, you know? So they... It's honestly pretty crazy here Um the before the divertic came in artists says cuz they asked him, you know They call him the forgotten man because this is the Ruben Carter case They didn't say this is a story of a hurricane and Ruben Carter. It was this is the story of the hurricane Or and John artists and a guy named John artists. It was this is the story of the hurricane Very important man. It's in this dick then some other guy you don't know about

who's not important. So he said that I'm defending my life, but I'm not mentioned, it kinda disgusts me, which makes sense. Talk about me too. Yep, and also the prosecutor said that he's happy the jury did what they did because the victims were crying out of their graves for justice.

Were they? Were they? How do you know that, sir? So Christmas Eve comes up here and they're trying to get bail so they can be home for Christmas and a judge refuses bail for Carter and Artis. So they have to go back to jail. They said there was quote, no compelling reasons for them to be free while they appealed. Wow.

December 30th, 1976, six days after that, his son is born. Oh, is that right? Yeah, check it out. Here is his wife and son here. And his wife has the, one of the finest afros I've seen in really ever. It's gotta be eight inches high off from her scalp.

It's fucking awesome. It's not one of those super tight ones either. It's like loose and yeah, looks like if the wind blows, it'll move. Like a bush. Yeah. That's a good one. So there he is.

Like a hedge. His newest son is named Raheem Ruben Carter so almost a junior close but not quite but does throw his name in there that's fine she stated that when they said how do you feel about the baby being born his wife said that Ruben Carter is not a murderer that was his that's how I feel about it not a murderer by the way just so you know. So sentencing comes around here and Carter gets to say his things here and he says, quote, well you know what, let's give him in their own words. I'd say we should probably if he's going to plea for his life here. In their own words, quote, there is not one scintilla of evidence or anyone on the face

of this earth that says John Artis or Ruben Carter did murder these people. John Artis and Ruben Carter did not, would not, and could not commit such a crime. In my opinion, we have an animal running loose around here. We were tried because we were black." That's what he says. Artis addressed the judge briefly as well, told him he'd always been taught to tell the truth, but he said, quote, but I have learned that the doctrine of due process is not always true.

I have been dealt a group of lies, racial prejudices and racial motivation. Now, in sentencing artists, the judge noted his exemplary prison record, his work toward a college degree, and he said it's not pleasant for me to say that you should spend more time in prison, but I have no alternative. You, sir, may fuck off. This is for artists. Three life terms concurrent. Same sentence as the first time. Now, because he's been in so much time serve for this he will be eligible for parole in 1981 like four years from now so this is really a four-more-year sentence but it's still you got to spend more four more fucking

years in sentence and in prison here now the same time they sentence Carter to you sir may fuck off three life sentences, two of them to run concurrent, and one to be consecutive to that. He got the same exact fucking sentence as he got the first time. Yeah. So that is pretty fucked up here.

Interesting, they criticized, basically they were criticized the prosecution afterwards. Carter and Artis both criticized that Bellow was allowed to be a fucking witness and that his word meant anything at all in here. So there you go. So they're both in prison again. And he is for life. I mean, he's going to be in there a long fucking time. Ruben, the other guy's going to be out in four years. He may be up for parole in 80 or 81, whatever. But then he has to, even if they parole him, he's gonna be in there a long fucking time, Ruben. The other guy's gonna be out in four years. He may be up for parole in 80, 81, whatever. But then he has to, even if they parole him,

he has to start over. Yeah, totally. So in March of 77, they start talking about what happened to all that money they raised for him. Because they said the twice convicted murderer, Ruben Carter, is back in maximum security prison, far from the bright lights and adulating rock concert crowds at Madison Square Garden in the Houston Astrodome.

Gone also are the Hurricane Carter T-shirts, bumper stickers, and life-size posters that proclaim the image of a proud black man victimized by a police frame-up in an era of racial strife. They talk about all this, but they're talking about where the money all went basically. Now they're trying to do like an accounting of all this and acting the New York State Attorney General's office

acting on an audit of the foundation made by the charities unit of the State Board of Social Welfare began an investigation here. And they said that the representative Edward Koch, what's his name? Koch, we'll call him Koch here, like Ed Koch. Oh, because it's Ed Koch. It's the soon to be mayor of New York, Ed Koch, I believe here.

That's why, Edward I. Koch, yeah, it's Ed Koch, said that the expenditures for one benefit concert are insulting to one's sensibilities and had asked the IRS to look into the matter, saying basically they spent too much on expenses that it can't be true. They have to be hiding some money. He also requested the state investigation and said that he'll also draft federal legislation to impose tighter controls over fundraising and to provide for spot checking of the expense record of all charitable organizations. Yeah that's pretty good. They're referring to the January 25th 76 night of the hurricane benefit in Houston which had a

box office receipts of $339,788 in 1970 fucking six money. That's a lot of money. Yeah, but claimed a net loss of 48,777 after expenses Wow, it's been 380 grand Jesus Christ on to put a fucking show together Yeah, so Ed Koch said what arrogance they list these expenditures, but nobody checks them Who knows if they really paid out for those expenses? Who knows where that money really went? The sponsors of the benefits claim that they're the victims of a witch hunt and say they can

prove the legitimacy of their expenses. I think they're going to have to get some receipts probably. John Webster, the vice president and a director of Freedom for All Forever said, I don't feel we have anything to hide. Our purpose went beyond just paying lawyers fees. It was to call attention to the apparent abuse of civil liberties and I think we succeeded. But the point of the show is to raise money for someone's defense fund and you didn't succeed because you got a net loss. I think we got awareness that everybody's got rights, man. How did you spend $400,000 to tell everybody we got rights?

Everybody was aware that Bob Dylan was playing tonight. That's what they were aware of, apparently. So they said they talk about his autobiography. The origin of this media campaign came from his autobiography, obviously. So yeah, this is a problem. So now they're gonna look into this. So even then, like even afterwards, now they're in jail and even all this shit,

they're also talking about the one in Madison Square Garden as well. And they said it appeared to be a financial success at first. It took in $220,578 in box office receipts and after expenses netted $108,000, but they said that the foundation's troubles may have began when Muhammad Ali walked on stage with long-haired youthful-looking Eddie Sapir and introduced him to the cheering crowd. Sapir, a municipal judge in New Orleans and a close friend of New Orleans promoter named Clyde Carson, announced that another night of the hurricane would be held

in that city's Superdome and they said the engagement fell through, but they consequently became involved in the promotion of the benefit of the Astrodome and that's how this all happened. So, April 16, 1977, with all this going on, let's have another benefit. Let's really spend some money. Let's get it on. 1977 here. Third benefit here for Hurricane. This is fucking great. They say quote, this concert is legitimate. Anyone can inspect our books. The money will go to purchase transcripts for the appeal. It's hard to see. It's an old newspaper, by the way. Estimated at $15,000

in printing costs. Okay. It's a lot. And that's back then. So think about what that would be. Wow. They've still got 365 more to spend. Right. No shit. Carter is indigent now, they said, and his attorneys are threatening to freeze future proceeds because of $370,000 in legal fees at this point.

So far, Muhammad Ali, Richie Havens, and Dick Gregory have agreed to appear at this next fundraiser. And yeah, that's what they're trying to do. So that's hopefully, maybe they'll get something out of that. I don't know. So April 27th, 1977, Carter ruled ineligible for appeal by New Jersey judge. Ineligible?

Ineligible. You can't appeal what? They said that he's ineligible for state paid lawyers to appeal their murder convictions. Oh, he can appeal it on his own if he wants. If he wants to pay for it, but that's, you can get like, the state will give you a certain amount of money for to hire lawyers, but it's much less

than they would normally charge. There's a group of lawyers usually that they have to do a certain amount of that and they're in a pool basically and they get pulled out for that kind of shit. But they're saying that he's ineligible for this. So they said the defendants have not submitted sufficient proof rejecting arguments that two men are too poor to pay for continued legal representation, even though he owes $370,000 in legal fees.

All righty. Which I don't know how they can say that, but they're doing. It's a six page opinion, and they said, no accounting was offered of royalties Carter received for a book or for money he earned for speaking engagements. So they said, the Freedom for All Forever Committee, which the defense attorneys depicted as an independent group unrelated to Carter and Artis, was a successor

to the original defense committee that raised thousands of dollars for the two. That's the one with the lady that he allegedly beat up. So they said, there's no evidence that the second fund was used for any purpose or persons except for the defense of Carter and Artis. That's the lawyer. The speaking engagements netted $6,900 that was never accounted for also. And Artis' lawyer said, John Artis has no money whatsoever.

The ruling was decided on hearsay information that Ruben Carter might have some money. Once again, John Artis is being treated as a non-person, not on his own merits. Like, again, this wasn't a John Artis benefit concert. Like, he's got no fucking money. You can say Ruben has money, he wrote books and all that. John Artis didn't write shit, he's been sitting here. So help, basically. And nope, they said you can't no fucking money. You can say Ruben has money. He wrote books and all that. John Artis didn't write shit. He's been sitting here.

So help, basically. And nope, they said you can't have any money. Get fucked. That poor guy gets lost in the shuffle constantly. He really does. He's the lost, like fucking, him and his gold shoes are really the saddest thing in here. And there's three dead people, but he's like,

him and his gold shoes are really getting fucked over. He's getting fucked over at every turn. He's a real fucking Eeyore. At least Ruben had to go through all this and he got a Denzel movie out of it at the end. This motherfucker got nothing. Yeah. You got who gots out of this shit.

Who played him in the fucking movie? You know? I bet it wasn't Denzel. I know it wasn't him but I bet it wasn't- Mackay Pfeiffer? Anybody? Yeah. We got Mackay Pfeiffer.

Is that okay? Mackay Pfeiffer and his bizarre face. We got Lorenz Tate. Is that going to work for you? Is that all right? How's that? Oh, we got the guy who played Kane in fucking menace to society. We haven't seen him much. What do you think? Experience in person, the unsettling true stories behind the Dr. Death podcast at exhibit C live presents Dr. Death,

a closer look. This live tour experience brings you face to face with accounts of doctors who caused irreparable harm, the system that failed to protect their patients, and the heroes who stopped them. You'll hear from me, Laura Beal, reporter and host of the Dr. Death podcast, along with our panel of experts and whistleblowers. It's hosted by Suspects Matthew Scherr. It's an important evening with one of the most iconic true crime podcasts of all time. Don't miss your chance to be part of the conversation. Exhibit C- C Live presents Dr. Death, A Closer Look. Tickets go on sale August 9th, so get your truest true crime fans together

and get tickets before they sell out. What would you do if you were framed for murder by a serial killer? Listen now to Natural Selectionlection Scott vs. Wild Bill. I am retired FBI criminal profiler Candace DeLong and my new series begins in the heart of a tropical paradise where a darkness lurks. Meet Scott Mikada, sailing on his boat with his family until one encounter changes everything. That killer is Wild Bill. What drives a man to murder?

And how does he continue to manipulate from behind bars? And how does he continue to manipulate from behind bars? Subscribe now to Natural Selection, Scott versus Wild Bill. We got Denzel and Lou Gossett Jr. What do you think? I know he's a little old, but still. He's a great actor, but he's, you know, you're going to have to compromise a little. I get it, but we think, but you know, he's pushing age a little I get it But we think the Iron Eagle can pull it off. You know what I mean?

Nobody's gonna believe these two guys would ever hang out. That's the point of the story. That's how it works They're supposed to be so yeah there's a lot of talk about the funds and who's getting funds and who's not getting funds and They said that there's aid due to them. They should get aid from public sources. There's all sorts of fighting back and forth of basically whether Rubin and John Artis have any money. So July 2nd, 1977 from the newspaper here, Rubin Hurricane Carter and John Artis will have the bill for the appeal of their murder convictions paid for by Passaic County. So after an appeal of the original ruling, now it's okay.

They're gonna get their shit paid for. So September 6th, 1977, from the newspaper, Carter and Artis, two ways of doing time. Yeah, one's getting out in four years, so he's like. Not doing time and then doing time. That's definitely two ways to do it. By the time all this appeals shit would go on, he's out anyway. So fuck it.

So they said, nine months after they were condemned to life imprisonment for a second time, Artis and Carter are fighting prison drudgery alone in different ways here. Last December, jury found them guilty again. They said the two men, who have been separated by prison officials, recently were interviewed. Carter 40 at Trenton State Prison and Artis 30 at Rawway. Forced together by the trial, they have veered down different roads. Carter who isn't eligible for parole until 1997, is convinced a conspiracy by prosecutor, judge, and guards alike is happening to keep him behind bars.

Artist who's eligible to get out in less than five years is less bitter. He said he's come to terms with his imprisonment and speaks of camaraderie with both fellow inmates and guards. He's having a great time. He's a short timer. He's doing, he's fine. There's an end to this. I see a window.

Ruben's like, I'm going to be 60 when I get out of here. Help. This sucks. Ruben's like, what's a window? Well, yeah, I haven't seen one. I was in so fucking long. He said that he believes strongly as, as strongly as Carter that their trial was unjust, but he just has less expectation of a quick solution.

He said, well, Carter broods, he's waiting. He said, I realized, this is Carter, Carter said, I realized immediately when the jury walked into the court what their verdict was because they were so misinformed. They was as hoodwinked and their complexions were the same complexions as they were 11 years ago Yeah, he said he's perfectly aware that there were two blacks on the jury unlike his first all-white jury But he said there wasn't there weren't no two blacks bullshit bullshit Those guys two guys in the jury are like I'm pretty fucking black. I don't know There's no two blacks. Are you black?

Cuz I'm black. Are you black? Okay, we're both all right thoughts up. He said there ain't no difference That's nothing but a front. They were two elderly Two elderly from another generation of Negro persons. So he was saying they weren weren't the fight for your rights, black people. They were the calm the fuck down. Get along, get along, black people. Yeah, don't let white people notice you and they won't hurt you. Nothing will happen type of shit. Blend into the background, black people.

Yeah, yeah. He said they don't even know what they are themselves. So he is convinced that he was convicted by a racist conspiracy and that's how it goes. So Carter here, to Carter, the racial revenge theory based on circumstantial evidence is the most galling of the whole thing. He says the prosecutor not only used Carolyn Kelly to his advantage, he promoted it to the woman who said he beat her up, but then they don't know if it's true or not and all

that kind of thing. So in this newspaper article, they go on on to say Carter is obsessed with his own rhetoric and the details of the trial He refused to discuss the celebrity fundraisers that ended in financial collapse or the official probing of the lavish spending that siphon money Away from his defense. He says only I told you I don't feel as though I've been ripped off Meaning those people didn't rip him off And let's let's let it go at that. Okay He also refused to discuss his day-to-day activities his family or any question that he has regarded as soft like a softball Hey, how's everybody doing?

Asked how many times he's seen his son Rahim who was born five days after he went back to prison He said quote that's none of your business. I love that though. Yeah. Who's fucking, what's that? None of your fucking business. It's not what I'm here to promote. What his fundraising committee is doing is nobody's business either.

He said, he said it's really insignificant how many letters I get. It is insignificant if I can have any personal things in my cell. It is insignificant. All those extraneous things are insignificant. What's significant is, am I here improperly or am I here properly? It's like all I wanna talk about is why the fuck am I in prison?

Not, you know, none of this, well, Ruben likes to eat a breakfast of this and then he works out in the yard. I don't wanna hear any of that shit. That's what I'm saying. Don't waste type space on that shit. Let's just talk about this only. He says that he refuses, or they say that he refused a work assignment while in prison

too. He said, you see I have a job, a very important job, the issue is will I stop working on my job which is my continuous struggle to be free to work at a job in the institution which is totally beneficial to the institution and not my welfare. I think that's insane. Yeah. Well, I mean that's one thing that can, you know, if you're trying to concentrate on your appeal and you have to go like mop floors for eight hours, you might be like, you know, I'm trying to do my appeal here and I don't know, I shouldn't even fucking be here so fuck you. I could see the attitude being like that. Definitely.

He said, I think the public has deserted. They said, do you think the public has deserted you? And he said, I think the public has deserted themselves. I don't know what the hell that means. That's very interesting. He said that he didn't think that anybody covered the retrial fairly. He said, you think you were there covering the trial, but you really wasn't because there was nothing you could do about what was going on there. You was still controlled

by the prosecutor and his falsity and his evil lies. They say that Carter stands of the prison officials say he doesn't really, doesn't hang out with anybody. They said he stands aloof from other prisoners. He just spends hours at the typewriter. That's all he does. Outsider, yeah. He's just typing. Yeah. And a prisoner, Carter said, I don't come into contact with guards nor prisoners.

I don't have time to be playing games and therefore I don't allow any of them to play with me and I don't play with them. So they said that he doesn't cause any trouble. He minds his own business and doesn't cause any trouble keeps to himself When asked about the chances for a new trial he said quote. I will get a new trial I will get a new trial I will get a new trial that is free from the lies and deceits and the political racism and the police corruption of Passaic County I will get that there is no doubt in my mind that I get that So he wants it he wants it There's no doubt in my mind that I get that. So. He wants it.

He wants it. Yeah. Yeah. And I mean, there's more here about artists, but honestly, poor guy gets no, that's what I mean. So October 20th, 1987, we talk about, he's selling this here. Passaic County officials say the transcripts

to be used by Ruben Hurricane Carter and John Artis in their appeals of their triple murder will cost about $10,000. Wow. They said that the appellate division of the superior court approved a system to duplicate the 12,000 page document, which will save the county about $30,000. It's called a Xerox machine.

You put it on there, pump it right out. It $30,000. It's called a Xerox machine. You put it on there, pump it right out. It's really, yeah. You can sit on it if you want. Oh, you can get your ass on there. Mix it in with the court transcripts. It'll be a surprise for Rubin. Hey, is this a secretary's ass? Look at this. So November of 77, still working hard to prove himself injustice victim is the headline from the Jersey Journal newspaper. And they said, cast aside by most who worked to clear him, Hurricane Carter still maintains

his innocence despite two convictions. He said, I'm still fighting and fighting hard to get out of here. If I felt for a moment it was hopeless, I'd be out of here in a minute. I would leave. I would leave. I would leave. I guess kill yourself would be the way to do that. He said people ask me if I'm bitter. Sure I'm bitter. I'm not a madman. I don't have saliva dripping from my mouth. It is intelligent for me to be angry. Damn right I'm angry about what's happened to me. Yeah, if you didn't murder people and you're sitting in jail, I'd be mad too. Don't say it like that, because that's what Kemper said.

Almost the same thing. That is exactly true. Except we had a lot more evidence against Kemper. He also, they said that he's been asserting his innocence by refusing to work and refusing to wear a uniform in prison. What do you want to wear? Just street clothes, I guess, just jeans and a t-shirt. I don't know what the fuck he's talking about. He said my work is to get me out of jail.

It would be totally insane for me to help my keepers. There's nothing in here that could possibly be beneficial to me. Yeah, I would say so. I agree with that. Fucking yeah. That was, that's something. So December 22, 1977, planning another round here as the Philadelphia Enquirers headline. And talking about it, all he's talking about is appeals and basically artists just gave up on appeals. He's like, fuck it. He quit.

I'm cool. I'll be out in a few. I'm cool. If I'm just cool and up on appeals. He's like, fuck it. He quit. I'm cool. Yeah. I'll be out in a few, I'm cool. If I'm just cool and I try to, he's playing it like if I just go along to get along, I'll have a better chance with the parole board in 81. So fuck it, I'll just be cool about the whole thing. But Rubin's seeking a retrial in mid 78 here.

They're appealing their conviction anyway. Obviously, Artis is appealing too. But in a motion filed in the appellate court, Carter and Artis said the prosecution misled a lie detector expert about the testimony given by Alfred Bello, the government's key witness here. So Bello, who said obviously he was standing lookout, they're talking about him, and their appeal defense attorneys maintain the prosecution misled Leonard Harrelson, a polygraph expert from Chicago who administered a lie detector test to Bellow in August 76. So that's the later lie detector test. Their appeal, July 7th, 1978, it's called a mini-appeal by Carter and Artis to have their convictions overturned, has been denied.

It's not the formal official appeal, which the attorneys are expected to file in October, but I guess this, I don't know, I've never heard of this before, a mini-appeal? This is a very weird thing here. Don't look at me. It's fucking weird. Okay, I don't understand it. So they said defense attorneys will ask for the court for a hearing on the matter but still intended to file a more encompassing appeal in October. Artis's attorney, Steele, said that he did not receive the ruling until about a week ago saying that this was denied. He said the defense wanted to respond to the

state's brief but before it could do so the court ruled on the motion. So they didn't even like have a chance to do anything. July 31st 1978 the NAACP gets involved in the case here. Yeah they are taking over the appeal basically. They're going to be under their legal wing now because the judicial process has been racially infected, officials said. Nathaniel Jones, the general counsel for the NAACP, said in a statement that the association is concerned that the New Jersey judicial system is not adequately addressing itself to the racial dynamics clearly manifested in this case. He also said, such is reflected in the recent refusal of the Appellate Division of New Jersey

courts to even consider a motion addressing itself to serious prosecutorial impropriety in the most recent trial of Carter and Artis. It is wild, some of the evidence they let in there. I will say, that's... Is it really evidence though? Well, if it's presented before a jury, then it's evidence. Yeah, I guess it is. So the shit they let in isn't really evidence.

He's still doing this, by the way. Hurricane 78, mid 78, he's still fighting. He says, I'm a fighter by conviction as well as by profession yeah he said I've suffered defeats but I've never been defeated oh yeah he said I'm not a criminal nor am I a martyr all my time is spent working on the appeal all my time is spent working to be free I try to keep myself far enough away from the criminality of the mind. I must not be contaminated by what is here." That's why he doesn't befriend other inmates.

Okay. He said, I can't be distracted. Wow. He said, what has come between my wife and myself is not another woman or another man but the state of New Jersey because he said him and his wife are having problems. I'm cheating on her with the whole state. With the whole state. With the whole state. Well, the state's banging her, I think is what he's saying. Both of them, really.

He said, it's an Eiffel Tower situation. He said, my wife is a strong woman, but they have beaten her down. While she has perhaps given up, I have not. So they said, do you pray? Are you into religion? And he said, I believe that my commitment for freedom and for a more humane society does not require my agreement to a theological or metaphysical creed. Said organized religion has no place in his life.

Don't have time for that shit. How about that? It's very rare that they turn their back on religion behind bars. Don't have time. Jesus is a bad typist. Yeah. His words ferment it real well. Yeah, I gotta get my type going. I got a lot of appeals to file, a lot of paperwork. It's how it

works man. Jesus is a hunt and pack kind of guy. He's not really good at it. He's not a technology guy. I understand that, but I don't have time for it. He said that we will win, the question is when will we win? We have been trying to win for the past 12 years. And they say despite his optimism, he's reluctant to discuss what his future plans might include. He says, of course, I just don't want to live for today. I want to cross the bridge before I come to it. Or I don't want to cross the bridge before I come to it either. So you can't. Yeah, that's not going to happen. So they file his papers for an appeal here. January, they schedule it for January 29th is the appeal here. Now, January 30th, the judge decides he may hold a hearing. I guess jury misconduct was claimed during the trial.

That's what they're doing. A hearing's being held in federal court to decide whether the court should probe deeper into the allegations of jury misconduct during the trial. US District Judge Herbert J. Stern has to decide whether to order an evidentiary hearing to study the allegations made by an alternate juror on the 16-member panel.

He also must decide whether to release the pair from prison during the course of their appeal. So, that's a big difference. Do we know what the misconduct was? I think that's what the hearing is to find out. They said they're seeking to overturn the convictions on the basis of a statement made by the alternate juror who said the panel was tainted by racist remarks and a preconceived belief that they were guilty.

I guess the judge unsealed court papers that outlined alleged improprieties during the retrial. Yeah, so that's fucking interesting. February 27, second 1979, they charge racism in their appeal. That's the whole appeal, is they said that one or more of the jurors at the 1976 retrial received information that the defendants allegedly failed a lie detector test after the crime. That information is alleged, it allegedly was improperly leaked and tainted the jury's verdict. It's also not true.

Yeah, there's that. Yeah, but also those aren't allowed in court. No, and any mention of them isn't. And they passed lie detector tests, if I recall correctly, didn't they? So they said the jury unconstitutionally was infected with racial prejudice. Court attendants guarding the sequestered jury committed misconduct and certain jurors violated their oath. They said the state's racial revenge motive for the slayings improperly was admitted into evidence.

The prosecutor's office obviously argued that. They said that the state's key witness, Alfred Bellow, shouldn't have been allowed to testify. Prosecutorial misconduct infected the entire proceedings and the state deliberately misled the defense regarding the racial revenge theory. The state introduced false alibi witnesses by invading the privacy of the defendant's mail and by coercing witnesses to testify against them to rebut their alibis. They said there was a massive prejudicial and pretrial publicity leaked in some instances by the prosecutor's office.

Now the pretrial publicity is also part your fault. You're holding Madison Square Garden shows with fucking every famous person you ever met. So the publicity goes on both sides. That can work well for you too. Said the defendant's right to a speedy trial was violated. The denial of public funds to finance defense efforts thwarted the New York lawyers from effectively representing their clients as well, and the verdict was contrary to the weight of the evidence as well.

The appeal, which at one point cites Romeo and Juliet to establish one of its many points, I don't know how the fuck they fit into this, but they said they abused and insulted the defense witnesses, including journalists who investigated the case. The attorneys referred to the trial as a classic case of American injustice, and they referred to Bello as a despicable liar and a professional criminal who by his own admission was willing to tell any story for a price, which he did say that. March of 1979, artists is like looking at his watch here going, honestly, I'm okay.

He's like, I'm trying to get to like a certain goal, like muscle mass between by the time I get out and this is just fucking out my workout program. I gotta be here every day. 500 pushups. I gotta be here every day. 500 push-ups. I gotta be around a thousand. I gotta do that. I'm working my way up. The judge interrogates the jurors from the second trial on racial prejudice. Yeah. It is what they're doing. In closed chambers, Judge Bruno Leopizzi of Passaic County questioned 12 regular jurors and four alternates here. Present during questioning were the prosecutor and the defense lawyers as well. They said none of the jurors and for alternates here. Present during questioning were the prosecutor and the defense lawyers as well. They said none of the jurors questioned up until midday substantiated the fellow jurors allegations that the jury had made racial slurs against the pair.

The questioning was ordered, obviously, to see if that was fucking a thing. There's also a, in one statement here, a damo of Union City said juror Guy Aliaro told fellow jurors that he heard from his wife that Carter flunked a lie detector test shortly after the murders. So, that's it. How did you hear that? My wife told me this, which is not supposed to be discussing the case with the relatives. Yeah. And number one and number two, you can't tell the jurors just outside shit. That's not that's crazy. That's crazy. They said, Domo, who believes the pair

were guilty, also told the a pizza that two Hudson County Sheriff's officers made racial slurs about Carter and artists with an earshot of jurors. The judge presided over the second trial at the courthouse here because of the pre-trial publicity the jurors were selected from Hudson County and sequestered, but apparently could still talk to their wives. So, March 22nd, 79, the state is investigating whether the man who helped reopen the Rubin Hurricane Carter murder case was offered bribes to, or did offer bribes to the state's key witness, perjured himself at a retrial and profited improperly from Carter's autobiography. So the deputy attorney general here is confirming that the state's corruption unit is exploring

the role of Fred Hogan, a senior investigator for the state public advocate's office during the retrial. Hogan and two reporters obtained a statement in which key witnesses recanted this testimony that led to the triple murder conviction. The two were convicted in the retrial, okay, but they're appealing that. Sources said the corruption unit is also studying whether Hogan perjured himself in testimony about his dealings with Bellow. The inquiry is based on a two-year-old memo in which Passaic County prosecutor Burl Ives

— that cracks me up — Burl Ives Humphreys criticized Hogan, Rabb, Levinson and other connected with the retrial, including Raymond Brown, Carter's lawyer at the original trial, but concluded that only Hogan could be legitimately prosecuted. Hogan said, if they want to reinvestigate me, that's okay. It took them two years to come to the conclusion and finalize this. I don't believe it. So they're saying he was getting fucked over by many avenues, including this guy. Okay. This is March of 79.

Pasaic freeholders sue for transcript reimbursement. Okay, they said that the account, they filed suit to force the state's office of the public defender to reimburse them $29,061 to supply Carter and artists with transcripts from the trial. Wow. They claim the state statute places the cost of transcripts within the state agency So they're arguing about whether it's county or state is gonna pay for fucking tried transcripts

So in the jury hearing they're charging bias obviously Here they're talking all about this shit. They said that the Steel it was artists attorney wrote that the assistant Passaic County prosecutor, Ronald Marmo, made innuendos during the hearings that Adamo had been bribed to make the allegations. That's the juror that we're talking about here. Within the first half hour of the proceedings, Marmo was speculating, what if Adamo was paid off to make those allegations? The affidavit claims claimed Leopizzi, the judge, without any evidentiary basis whatsoever, began to operate on the same conceptions which permeated Assistant Prosecutor Marmo's opening

statements. Steele cited an incident in the courtroom during which Marmo remarked that the defense attorneys looked at one another and nodded. The affidavit said that Marmo used these actions to conclude the defense attorneys were withholding information from the court. When the attorneys objected to the interference, the court responded by indicating its concurrence in the accusation. I believe him.

I'm on his side. They said this prompted the defense attorneys to ask the judge to disqualify himself. In letters recently obtained by the news, Adamo accused Leopizia of being prejudiced against him. He said, you question me in a rather hostile manner. In fact, it could be considered nothing short of cross-examination. In view of the fact that I will subject myself to a polygraph or sodium pentethol or anything short of the rack, this testing of my credibility appears to be so much posturing.

At best it is silly and at worst hypocritical." A day later he wrote back to the judge saying this time he would appear voluntarily only once more. He said, at this voluntary appearance I will only answer questions directly related to the allegations made with reference to jurors who are ultimately involved in the verdict. I fail to see how further questioning along these lines of my credibility Can be for any other purpose than to harass and embarrass me or attempt to refute and impugn my testimony by inference and innuendo He's saying that the jurors are doing all this and they're the judge is concurring with the with the state's attorney going basically like

Yeah, he's a liar, right? Yeah yeah I'm sure he what if he got paid they're making the whole trial not about what he's saying and taking that as you know sworn testimony it's all about well I'm sure he's a liar which is a weird thing because normally jury jurors don't you know they don't really have a say in them like a horse in the race so they don't usually come out lying after a trial trying to. Yeah, the jury lying. It's not. It's very fucking weird. Adamo also wrote that I reiterate here that I've never been offered anything by

anyone for my testimony. Save legal counsel. Should I wish it? Lawyers have offered to. Yeah. Adamo made allegations last October that two jurors used an Italian euphemism When referring to blacks, I bet I know what that was But I know what that fucking Italian euphemism was I guarantee I know exactly what it was That's hilarious I've heard that a few times growing up. Yeah Wow I've seen that a few times growing up. Yeah. Wow. Oh, parmesan. Yep.

That's, I'm sure, that's what it was. Jesus Christ. Why would they do that? And that a jury guard told jurors during dinner that, quote, those bastards, meaning Carter and artists, will be found innocent on a technicality. And that another juror mentioned his wife told him about the failed lie detector. That is a wild fucking scene, man. Why would he?

Is it just gossiping now? Wow, that's why this jury really turned into a mess here. So they said that their lawyers, the artists and Carter's lawyers, contacted this week, also said they could not comment because the proceedings were secret. These secret documents also indicate that Leah Peetzee has refused to call the woman who originally interviewed the jurors and discovered Adamo's allegations. Her testimony would be tainted on behalf of the defense Leopzzi right so he would not call her.

The defense attorney is objected to that and Leopzzi told him to eat dicks basically. He doesn't seem like he's a real unbiased, this Leopzzi guy here. But if you're upset about that, you need to unwind a little bit. We have something for you. If you happen to be in New Jersey in April of 1979, head over to the, quote, exclusive New Jersey showing, The Girls You'll Go Home to Dream About. And it's a porn movie at the Wayne Mall Adult Theater. The mall Wayne mall adult theater. The mall has an adult theater.

That's awesome. Come on in for your spank bank material. Yep. To take the girls you'll dream of it. Take your hard dick home and whack it is what they're telling you. And it's called Teenie Buns. Oh no.

And Teenie is T-E-E-N-Y like teenage buns. Like a teen, yep. Yeah. Introducing Judy Harris, Phyllis Wolfe and Cathy Kane with a special appearance by Donna. Oh, Donna will be there, suckin' dicks. In quotes. In quotes. Donna.

Like we thought that was her real name. Oh, Donna. You mean. Yeah. Wow. Okay. I guess it says so you can start getting in at 11.45 a.m. Good God! early wax. You can drain yourself a jizz by 2 in the afternoon in this fucking place

Not bad. Drain your balls by noon and go get lunch. That's the food court. The old food court there Have a wank in an orange Julius Wank in a Julius. That's what you want. So their appeal is heard in May of 1979 and they're questioning the lie detector test. They said at one of these hearings, two defense attorneys, Bell, Doc and Steele, contended the prosecution withheld evidence about Bello. Steele charged that Bello wouldn't have identified Artis as one of the killers if the state hadn't shown him several photographs of artists. They said that he was educated to identify artists. Yeah, if you show

him the same guy seven times, you go, man, what's that guy? Well, it's just a, your brain recognizes patterns. Right, at that point your brain is just remembering a face and then, oh, I've seen that face before. And Bello, based on the fact that he was acting as a robbery lookout and also stole money from the bar, is definitely trying to cooperate with police as much as possible. He wants to catch this guy. If he sees the same picture seven times, his brain's gonna go, they want me to pick that guy.

It's that guy. Or he's stupid and he's just in his mind connecting who he's seen. And you know what I mean? I've seen that guy more than once in my life, whether it was in the last 20 minutes or not, who gives a shit? Yeah, that's what I'm saying. Totally, so wow.

They also, the lawyers say that they question the results of a lie detector test that the state gave Bellow in 1976 to verify his 1974 recantation. The lie detector test, the state said, verified that Bellow was telling the truth when he testified during the 67 trial that he had seen Carter and Artis leaving the bar.

The two attorneys say the state misrepresented the results of the lie detector test to them, I mean, the attorneys. So at the conclusion of the hearing, the appellate judges said they planned another hearing, so it's all about hearings. June 1st, 1979, they lose their bid for freedom here. What? Was there a crime committed? As far as I'm concerned, there wasn't. Guilty by Design dives into the wild story of Alexander and Frank, interior designers who in the 80s landed the

jackpot of all clients. We went to bed one night and the next morning we woke up as one of the most wanted people in the United States. What are they guilty of? You can listen to Guilty by Design exclusively and ad free on Wondry Plus. Join Wondry Plus in the Wondry app, Apple podcasts, or Spotify. She struck him with her motor vehicle. She had been under the influence that she left him there. on Wondry Plus. Join Wondry Plus in the Wondry app, Apple podcasts, or Spotify. She struck him with her motor vehicle. She had been under the influence and then she left him there. In January, 2022, local woman, Karen Reed was implicated in the mysterious death

of her boyfriend, Boston police officer, John O'Keefe. It was alleged that after an innocent night out for drinks with friends, Karen and John got into a lover's quarrel en route to the next location. What happens next depends on who you ask. Was it a crime of passion? If you believe the prosecution, it's because the evidence was so compelling. This was clearly an intentional act.

And his cause of death was blunt force trauma with hypothermia. Or a corrupt police coverup. If you believe the defense theory, however, this was all a coverup to prevent one of their own from going down. Everyone had an opinion. And after the 10-week trial, the jury could not come to a unanimous decision.

To end in a mistrial, it's just a confirmation of just how complicated this case is. Law and Crime presents the most in-depth analysis to date of the sensational case in Karen. You can listen to Karen exclusively with Wondery+. Join Wondery Plus in the Wondery app, Apple Podcasts, or Spotify. I'm Dan Tuberski. In 2011, something strange began to happen at the high school in Leroy, New York. I was like at my locker and she came up to me and she was like stuttering super bad. I'm like stop f***ing around. She's like, I can't.

A mystery illness, bizarre symptoms, and spreading fast. It's like doubling and tripling and it's all these girls. With a diagnosis the state tried to keep on the down low. Everybody thought I was holding something back. Well you were holding something back. And tension, I. Yeah, yeah, well, yeah. Now, it's hysteria.

It's all in your head. It's not physical. Oh my gosh, you're exaggerating. Is this the largest mass hysteria since the witches of Salem? Or is it something else entirely? Something's wrong here. Something's not right.

Leroy was the new dateline, and everyone was trying to solve the murder. A new limited series from Wondery and Pineapple Street Studios. Hysterical. Follow Hysterical on the Wondery app or wherever you get your podcasts. You can binge all episodes of Hysterical early and ad free right now by joining Wondery Plus. Yep, Leah Peetzee, the same fucking judge who apparently hates everybody, who presided at the retrial dismissed an alternate jurors contention that the jury was prejudiced by racial remarks and a preconceived belief that the defendants were guilty of murdering these

people. They found no evidence that the retrial was tainted by this at all and said, nope, go fuck yourself. Okay. Great headline here, June 28th, 1979, The Herald News. Carter stresses and then in quotes, taint. So he's stressing his taint, which is terrific. He's a bastard.

Yeah. Yeah. He said that it should be overturned because the jury was tainted. He keeps saying tainted, tainted, tainted, tainted. He said, is it right for our system to allow a juror who uses slang terms about blacks to reach a guilty verdict our system will not allow that is what he said this is ridiculous this is bullshit he goes on to say that he one juror now they say what it is one juror in joking with guards referred to blacks as I'm gonna, it's the Italian word that means eggplant.

If you knew. It's an M word. Yeah, it's an M word. He said, referring to the racial remarks, Bell Dock said that it shows callousness, a lack of sensitivity, and a lack of responsibility for a juror, and he said, you let a juror use those words and we no longer have a fair trial.

Did he at least have the common decency to say the whole word or did he just do the... Yeah the shorten it up there. Yeah, did he shorten it or go the full length? You know what I mean? You don't know. Who knows? He said it's more a fact that a word is said does not mean there is taint. That word has been tainted.

It's been tainted. It's been tainted. All sorts of tainted. So the, again, the county will pay for the transcripts, by the way. It's decided, not the state. And so that's excellent. Terrific. And also right underneath that, a new school will install a new septic system for $15,000 because apparently, quote, 10 years of stench at Memorial School may be over.

School board officials say the school's new septic system has been installed and appears to be working well. Well, that's great. Great. Terrific. Yeah, apparently that some parents had complained that the smell from the leaking system was so bad that children were unable to eat.

Golly. Just smells like shit. Yeah, full grease trap. Oh God. March 18th, 1980. Carter and artists get top court review. Again, artists is like tick tick tick motherfucker. If you let me free a minute before this fucking thing is up, I'll be furious. Yeah, I was all set to wait out, you know what I mean?

So, Steele, Artis's attorney, said, we're very encouraged that the Supreme Court sees that this case merits an appellant review. We have been saying all along, the issues we have raised warranted review by a higher court, my client is most pleased that we're getting this chance. So I believe this is the state Supreme Court

is where we're going here. He said that Bell Dock, Carter's attorney, said, of course, I'm delighted with the decision. We've argued constantly the prosecution's case needs to be appealed to the higher court here. So that's what they're gonna do. And here it goes. High Court hears new Carter artist appeal

in September of 1980. So the New Jersey Supreme Court hears from the lawyers. In 1975, the Supreme Court set aside the first murder conviction and then they had the retrial. So this court they've had better luck with, obviously, here. Now, they said the lawyers are saying that the pair argued that the state had commissioned the lie detector test thing, the racial things with the jury. It that the pair argued that the state had commissioned the lie detector test thing, the racial things with the jury. It's the same exact appeal they just did accept

with a higher court basically, without the judge who ruled over it the first time. It's so weird to have a judge who ruled over a case be the same judge who handles the appeal of that case. Yeah, he shouldn't be able to be like, yeah, let's look at my handiwork. That's what I mean. I'm gonna then judge my handiwork,

and if so, I'll publicly tell everybody I guess I fucked that one up. No, that's not gonna happen. Right, that's like an IRS audit agent going back to re-audit their own audit. Yeah, of their own taxes. Yeah. So it makes no fucking sense. I don't know why that's allowed, because obviously,

clearly, they have a preconceived something. Yeah, it's a conflict. Especially if you're saying the judge wasn't fair about something. He's going to sit back and go, I looked at it very closely, and I decided I am fair. I've decided I'm as fair as it gets. I decided I'm super fucking fair. I've decided I'm as fair as it gets. It decided I'm super fucking fair.

So they said that the, it was a combination of personal revenge to avenge a friend's father and had racial overtones. That's what the state is saying here, apparently. And the chief justice here appeared skeptical about references by the prosecution to Patterson's general racial tension. At one point near the end of the hearing,

he asked Ronald G. Marmo, the trial section chief for the prosecutor's office, what are you trying to prove about the murder to show that the community was outraged? Like, I don't get what the murder of one person has to do with the murder of another if they weren't like real connected. And was it just one murder that they're seeking revenge?

Yes, the avenging. To avenge one man or one murder, we don't know who. Kill them all. Shoot a woman in the pussy also. Right. Several times. Several times with a shotgun. Marmo replied that by themselves the references would be prejudicial, but with all the other

evidence they helped prove the racial revenge theory. So the Supreme Court justice said, I don't know where it fits in at this point. Like, this doesn't make sense. You got to square peg, my friend. Artis's attorney said that Bellows should not have been able to testify and complain that the half hour after the murders, police picked up Carter and artists and Carter's car brought them to the scene. This suggested that to Bello that they were the people that he should identify because

he knew that they had gotten picked up. So there was police testimony at the trial that 10 minutes after the shooting, Carter and artists were stopped by police blocks away. And obviously there was a third man Royster who, who they'd been drinking with, that we talked about. And yeah, so they said, Steele said that except for Bellow's tainted identification, the evidence was no stronger against Artis than it was against Royster.

Right. Exactly. They said Royster was ruled out as a suspect because he was hopelessly drunk when the car was stopped and because he didn't fit the description given by Bellow. Yeah, and there was only two by Bello. Yeah. November 21, 1980, Artis' public defender is barred.

Oh no. Yes. Saying that he did not think convicted murderer John Artis should have the luxury of both a private attorney and one paid for by the taxpayers, a judge refused to hear a petition Thursday by a public defender on Artis's behalf. Said, you don't have standing to even say this. You can't be his lawyer.

That's fuckin' very interesting. January 31st, 1981, early release is sought. John Artis is suffering from a, quote, potentially life-threatening disease and should be released from prison so he can receive medical treatment. His attorney says, he's suffering from Berger's disease. B U E R G E R disease. Is that burgers?

I don't know if it's burger or Berger or whatever it is, which can cause gangrene in the limbs. Yikes. That doesn't sound that. What? This is a fucking disease that happens. Now something else to be terrified about, great. Your arms and legs just go septic? What the fuck is that? I'm never gonna sleep again. With no cut or what? Wow, it needs an extensive program of physical therapy

to restore any possible effective use of his limbs. Holy Jesus Christ. Wow, both men will be eligible for parole in September or October, somebody says, but I don't think he's, Rubin's not eligible yet. Artist has lost four toes and one finger in surgical amputation since May of 1978. The man's a leper.

He's, yeah, and shit's falling off him left and right. Because of the rare circulatory disease which he contracted while in prison. I'm sure it's some kind of hepatitis type fucking. Yeah, some shit blood borne disease. In the hepatitis family, I'm sure. Dirt in your blood, super staph infection that makes your fucking fingers fall off, Jesus Christ.

December 15th, 1981, John Artis will be paroled. Wow. Yep, the chairman of the state parole board saying that two parole board members met with Artis Friday and stated his release for next, slated his release for next week. This person has earned the privilege of returning to society, said one of them.

John Artis. Say the digits. Well, he's definitely not gonna be shooting anybody, we know that much. Plus pointer fingers are crazy. Yeah, lost pointer fingers. He can't run. He's going to be a... Definitely can't chase you and can't shoot you. So good luck.

He said John Artis is not the same person. He's down a couple sizes in his shoes too. Yeah, that must be convenient. You can wear different size shoes. John Artis is not the same person who stood in that tavern in June of 1976. We wish him well. He said that he hopes his his number 45473 will be retired during following his departure. What?

What is this? The NBA? We're gonna lift it above the rafters? What the fuck are you talking about? What are your numbers? He said I would like the guys to paint my number on the wall like the Celtics or something and say this number will be retired for all time Hmm. He was a former to sport high school star. He said so he's into the whole sports thing Wow, that is fucking hilarious. So he's out minus some parts. He weighs a little less, but he's out left a few behind bars Yep, but his convictions, 1982, the convictions are upheld for Ruben Carter

and for John Artis. Unbelievable, man. New Jersey Supreme Court upheld the murder convictions for them, a four to three opinion. Uh-oh. Wow, that is wild. They wrote that the jury could and did reasonably arrive to the conclusion that they've breached basically. They said that

their legal battles became the subject of the Hitsong and Hurricane. They said, we are convinced that the case was contaminated by prosecutorial misconduct. That's still a defense here. And overreaching from the beginning to the end. They said they would ask the U.S. District Court in Newark to review the state conviction. The U.S. Supreme Court had decided after the first trial not to hear the case, but now the original conviction's thrown out, they could try to take it to the U.S. Supreme Court. Okay, I don't know if that's the plan or what here, but that's what's going on. July 3rd, 1985, Rubin loses another appeal. 85 now we're in. Artis is just a head sitting on a stool somewhere

at this point. He's just a head just sitting there. He's like, I'll learn to play the flute maybe. I don't know, I've got no other options here. I'm pretty fucked with all this shit. So this is a state appeals court Tuesday refused to acquit or grant a third trial to Ruben Carter and John Artis. Artis is out, he's like,

I don't give a fuck what you do with it. I don't care about any of this. No, this is the appellate division of the superior court in a three-oh ruling here, rejected the latest appeals from them. So. Unbelievable. ruling here rejected the latest appeals from them. So November 8th 1985, he is close to being freed from prison here apparently. A federal judge said it was a flawed by racial prejudice. U.S. district judge H. Lee Sarakin's decision in Newark yesterday set the groundwork for

a procedure that could get Carter released on bail or freed outright if the prosecutor decides not to continue the case. Yes, they said that this is his lawyer, Carter's lawyer, always there was the hope that we will get to the final day. We hope this is the final day. John Artis obviously was paroled then. Carter would have been eligible for parole around the year 2000 otherwise. Convictions not overturned. His ruling, a writ of habeas corpus, technically does not overturn the conviction of Carter and Artis for the shooting deaths, but it has the same effect as opening up by opening up the procedure for his release.

So Carter's attorneys were scheduled to appear in Newark at 2 p.m. for the hearing to request the release. The prosecutor's office has 30 days to file an appeal about this, and we'll see what happens here. Carter's response to the ruling said, quote, I was at the prison with, oh, this is Ed Carter. I was at the prison with Reuben. He said, you know, it's unfortunate

that it took all these years before someone has come along and really looked at all the facts and what is true from the beginning, that I have not committed a crime and that my civil rights have been violated many times. Ed's his cousin, by the way. And he said, he asked me to come and get him yesterday. I guess he thought he was getting out yesterday,

but then there's a delay due to hearings. So, Ed said he believes that Reuben's gonna come back and live in Patterson if he gets out. Is that right? Gonna come right on back home and just do whatever. I guess where the fuck else is he gonna go? He's gotta live with family. He's got nowhere else to go.

They found, the judge found that the prosecution was wanting on two major points, the use of a racial motive theory in the second trial and the withholding of evidence critical to the defense. They also went on to say the evidence of racial motive was too weak to justify the injection of it into trial. It was just off--handed maybe that was the reason and they just were allowed to introduce that as evidence. The judge said in essence the prosecution was permitted to argue to the jury that the

defendants who were black were motivated to murder total strangers solely because they were white. Although racial revenge may indeed be a motive for murder, it's highly inflammatory and prejudicial effect upon a jury requires that its existence be supported by sufficient and competent evidence. Yes. And that's the thing about this. You don't need why, so why try to inject a why that all it is is inflammatory as fuck? Absolutely. It's all ridiculous.

The judge also went on to say he was granting the writ mindful that the state can seek a retrial but hopeful that constitutional considerations will prevail. So let's not, assholes, is what he said. He said that witnesses have changed their accounts of the crime, some witnesses have died, others have memories that are now grown hazy over fucking 20 years. So I mean, this is, you're really going to try this guy again. He's basically laying the groundwork of why he, they shouldn't try this again as a judge. So that is something they said a habeas serves. This is the artist's attorney. A habeas corpus serves a real purpose. It doesn't give back the many years they lost in jail, but it gives all of us a ray of hope that maybe the truth will be looked at with

a fresh, clean, clear eye. It's a civil action that allows an inmate to apply directly to a federal judge for release. Because it's a civil action, the ruling technically is not considered a reversal of the criminal court's decision, although it has the same effect. So artists attended the afternoon press conference, carried in by somebody, I guess, under their arm, maybe in a bowling bag. It's probably easier to carry them that way. In a pot.

In a pot, yeah, maybe that's it. That's fucking great. Artists said, I'm just having a great time. He works for a linen company there. He said, freedom is a beautiful thing. Normal, natural, taken for granted freedom. It's indescribable. People don't understand it until they lose it.

That's pretty cool. If the ruling stands, Artis's conviction will be stricken from the record and he will be released from all parole requirements. He then said that he wasn't bitter about his 14 and a half years spent in prison. Wasn't bitter. What about the disease that you got because you were in there? They just unloaded you from a bowling bag. He was just, what the fuck?

He was just, from like 21 to 35 this guy, he went in a cool 25 year old with gold shirt, 21 year old with gold shoes and came out a fucking torso with no shoes because he had no feet. Wow that is fucked man. Not even being able to fit those shoes anymore. Fuck man that is wild. He then says that artist says my name is the most valuable thing I have it's important because I have a family. That's the whole ball game there. And also, this is Carter's lawyer, compared their plight to that of political prisoners,

saying he dedicated this victory to all the people unjustly convicted. And to them I say, keep the faith, keep heart, keep fighting for freedom. And he said, Rubin's a fighter. He's never given up, he's got fighting strength that's gotten him to this point. So prosecutors after that file a petition to the federal appeals court to return Ruben to jail a month after they ordered his release.

They want to put him back in jail. Yeah, they say for almost 30 years Ruben has presented a profile of violence, dangerousness, and extreme hostility. There is nothing to suggest that this well-entrenched disposition and behavior should be any different now. So we should put him back in prison because for 30 years he's been kind of a dick. What the fuck? He's been dangerous in my opinion.

How many people are there in the world that have been kind of a dick for 30 years? Jesus fucking Christ. I could name you dozens off the top of my head right now. Of celebrities. Forget just normal ass dickheads. Celebrities, politicians, news people, that just, Bill that I know? Yeah, him too. He's a dick too.

That doesn't mean- There's a kid in my neighborhood, James, that drives a little Mustang, and he drives it super fast in the neighborhood, and he's got new dents in that car all the time. Fuckin' asshole. Lock him up. Mm-hmm. Seen enough of this little bastard.

For 30 years, mind you, lock him up. For the rest of his life, fuck him. He didn't, in this quote, he didn't say that like, I think he's a murderer and he's still guilty of murder. He said that, well, he's still shouldn't be out there. Even if he didn't commit this murder, he's just not a safe guy. Still fuck him. Wow.

That is fucking amazing. But good news right under that though in Iowa Davenport, Iowa Disjockey will be back the headline reads. Oh, he's coming back. Disjockey Jack Daniels will be back this idiot This fucking idiot Named because no radio guys. That's his real name. He's decided he was gonna call himself Jack Daniels and Did this? his real name, he's decided he was going to call himself Jack Daniels and did this. He will be back on the air at, this is so fucking funny, this article at station WLLR after promising not to play Grandma Got Run Over by a Reindeer over and over and over without permission.

Daniels was suspended indefinitely after playing the song 27 times in less than three and a half hours and continuing to play it after program director Ray Randall told him to stop. That is fucking hilarious. He pulled like the John Mulaney salt and pepper diner trick. Yeah, yeah, running it again. But on a whole entire city of audiences. That's his job.

That is amazing. Randall said Wednesday that the Davenport, Iowa station had received hundreds of calls from listeners and that Daniels was allowed to return after the composer and performers of the song also called in support. They were like, no it's cool we like it. He's our best fan. Oh my god. Daniel said he decided to play the song to get himself and his listeners in the Christmas spirit Oh, it was around Christmas at least. I mean, yeah, this was December 20th. At least he wasn't playing it in fucking March. That would have been weird So January 8th, 1986. Happy New Year to Ruben State seeks to rejail Ruben Carter just enough or just it's over The differences between 1966 and 1986 are astronomical.

Yeah. It's not like now where we go 2024, 2004, same shit basically. Same shit, yeah. Same shit minus Instagram. That's literally what it is. It's the same shit. A little worse fashion, but yeah.

Yeah, yeah, that's it. Now it's worse fashion. Yeah, terrible. It's disgusting, it's embarrassing.. It's worse. Yeah. Yeah 66 to 86 is Fucking world of the world of difference. They just signed the Civil Rights Act in 66 66 is like pre hippies It's like just when the hip Woodstock hasn't happened yet Yeah, by 86 all those people had short hair and Fucking like corporate jobs and shit.

Yeah, totally different. Toyotas and Hondas roaming the streets. MTV for Christ's sake. Oh, for fuck's sake. Yeah. Hurricane could have been on MTV if it came out now. So New Jersey attorneys told federal appeals court yesterday that Ruben Carter remains a danger to the public and should be returned to prison while they appeal the dismissal of his conviction.

Wow. Wow. That is some balls to put that on paper. Truly. The Passaic County Assistant Prosecutor, Ronald Marmo, our favorite asshole prosecutor, said that after the hour-long hearing before the third U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals that the former middleweight boxer is as dangerous as he was in 1970 when he last had a psychiatric examination.

That exam, so he's saying, okay, put him away because in 1970 he had a psychiatric exam I don't like. It scared me. 16 years ago. That exam, Marmo said in an interview, showed Carter to be extremely dangerous, a threat to the community, seething with hostility. Which if you were in prison for murders you did not commit, you would be seething with

hostility. Can you imagine interviewing me in prison for four years for some shit I didn't do? Seething with hostility, if he didn't take a swing at the guy and fucking examining him, it's a win. He held it together because I would be losing my shit in there. If the man that examined him walked out of the room, I'd be losing it. I wouldn't say he's seething. No, yeah, exactly. He's not seething. He's holding it together well. I'd say he's got self-control. He's doing pretty great. Good self-control. Marmo asked the three-judge panel to order another psychiatric

Examination for Carter here. He said quote we say he hasn't changed and that he's still the same dangerous person Carter's attorney said what are you fucking kidding me? No, that's not what he said, but it should have been what he said What he said is uh? That doesn't make any sense Yeah, this is the dumbest fucking thing I've ever heard in my life his attorney said that we trust the prosecutors will be turned down again like they constantly get turned down because they suck and Nobody wants to fuck them either. Did we mention that little dick guys out there little dick guys. No one will fuck them One dude drives a really lame car. It's just they suck dudes are pussies

Telling you I've been justy for Christ Christ's sake. It's bad. It's bad. One in Hollywood Squares. I knew two people who had Justys. Really? Yeah. You saw one in the wild? I've ridden in a Justy. Oh my god. One was my friend's father and this guy was the saddest man ever. Jimmy. Oh my god. Okay, the mom drove this big giant van like a big big fucking like a panel van Yeah, yeah, but with windows in it and the captain's chairs and all that shit a van van, right? And then the dad drove a tiny tiny shitty Subaru Justy, right?

And he would come home and his kids, all the kids, except there was three kids, two of them were total juvenile delinquents and one was like this nerd or whatever. But it's amazing. And my friend obviously was one of the juvenile delinquents. And the dad would come home in his Justy and we'd go, oh, there he is in his Justy. When he'd pull in, we'd laugh our asses off. He looked angry that he was driving it. He'd get out, go inside, sit in his fucking chair, not talk to a soul, never say a word. Sit in his chair with a box of wine, white wine,

perched next to him, and he had a record player, and he put giant headphones on, and turned records on, and drank wine till he fell asleep in the chair and then woke up the next morning got back in the Justy and started all over he did it every night. That's how you gear yourself up for driving a Justy tomorrow. That's how you come down from driving a Justy too. I never saw this man eat food he didn didn't eat dinner. He'd just come home and drink till he fell asleep.

Shadow Stevens had a hard time pitching that you just won a Justy on that show. A Subaru Justy! And people were like, really? A what? Can I get, can I just get his? Would he want the... Yeah. I'll trade. I don't want the car. Every car that they gave away on that show was the worst car that manufacturer made. Like the tiniest tires legally available, that sort of shit.

Chevettes and Justies, as far as the eye can see. Bad stuff, man. Bad stuff. What were the other ones? I don't know what else they gave away. Was there a Dodge Shadow? I'll bet there was. Fucking Monza's given away in the 70s, you know, and like all that kind of bullshit.

Yeah. Yeah, they were giving away like Omnis in the 80s too, those little Dodge Omnis. Pieces of shit. Chrysler Fifth Avenue. Yeah, there we go. With no power features. Crank windows and no AC. A good slot for a radio if you want to install one.

It includes velour seats to ensure that your back will be dripping wet when you get out. Oh it's going to be wonderful. Thanks a lot Shadow, appreciate it. No problem. Son of a bitch. I'm Shadow Stevens. Fucking assholes. January 18th, 1986, court denies petition to hold Carter in prison.

I hope they yelled at these people too. I really do. It's a three-judge panel said that. One of the guys, Judge Leonard I. Garth, said, where the state has expressed no fear that Carter would fail to appear in response to federal process. The state has failed to furnish ground on which a federal court can or should act to re-incarcerate this petitioner. Because if someone's out on essentially bail, that means it's not a matter of thinking they're guilty, thinking they're not guilty.

That just means you think they'll show up for a hearing. And they haven't said a word about the fact that they don't think he'll show up or that he's going to run away. So We should want him in jail because he's dangerous. Yeah, which is what you adjudicate at trial, not at now. You know what I mean? So Innocent until proven that way. That's fucking insane. Wow. In November, this is after the other judge had called the 76 trial a travesty and all that kind of thing. So they're really, the

prosecutors are getting their dings right now. Yeah, the last guy had said human decency mandates Carter's release, not even the law, just human decency for Christ's sake. February 27th, 1986, appeal deadline passes in Carter's case. the prosecutor's office misses the deadline to file an appeal of the decision that set him free. So they have no recourse on it now whatsoever. March 30th, 1986, prosecutor files to reinstate Ruben Carter's murder charges. Reinstate them. Eden, if you're a taxpayer, are you going, isn't there anything else going on in this

county that could possibly be criminal that you should be fucking worrying about? If you're a taxpayer, are you going, isn't there anything else going on in this county that could possibly be criminal that you should be fucking worrying about? What are we talking about? That's a distraction from the fact that the police can't solve this fucking thing. You know what I mean? That's what it is. They've got nobody else. They've got to charge somebody in this because there's three people dead in another shot.

It's just, dude, this is fucking crazy. I don't understand it. But they have no witnesses. The only witnesses they have either admitted to lying or that's what they do for a living. Right, actual skill. Wow. This is the acting Passaic County prosecutor said Saturday,

he's confident a federal appeals court will reinstate the triple murder conviction of Ruben Carter. Holy shit. Wow. They said that the decision to set aside his conviction was legally flawed. the triple murder conviction of Ruben Carter. Holy shit. Wow. They said that the decision to set aside his conviction was legally flawed. They said, we're taking the position

that we're going to reinstate the conviction. We're arguing that Sorokin, that's the original judge there that found that he could go, found there was constitutional violation and he was wrong. Now, Carter's attorney or Artis's attorney said it's been in the courts for 20 years it's a waste of taxpayers money that this madness is still going on. Right. So yeah Artis says it's a madness is still going on a waste of taxpayers money I couldn't agree with

that more is there nothing else we can spend tax dollars on here. That's John Artis, that is March 30th, 1986. Then, April 21st, 1986, John Artis faces cocaine charges. God damn it. John. Which is again, not murder. Yeah, yeah. In 1986, there's plenty of people doing coke. Is he moving it or is he doing it?

How's he doing it? It's conspiracy to distribute cocaine. So he's just throwing his head into a pile of it? Yeah, yeah. It gets tossed up in the air and he bats it at someone with a stump. That's how it works. So artists and 11 other suspects have been held without bail since they were arrested in a series of raids.

Oh boy. Prosecutors said there was evidence that artists had purchased cocaine in Upper Manhattan, that would be Harlem, and made several deliveries to New Jersey. So yeah, artists then will admit guilt in a drug ring, artists and four others. A superior court judge accepted guilty pleas from John Artisan, four other individuals involved in this trafficking operation. 13 suspects were indicted on all of this. This was charges of basically running drugs between New York City and Jersey.

All of the defendants have pleaded guilty except for two men who have fled the jurisdiction. They took the fuck off. Which is pretty well. Is it new that they've been trying people for when people die of drugs? Is that a new thing? I know they've done it, they had done it before, but I know there's newer laws that are specific that they've passed for this,

because I don't know how okay with that I am, by the way. Yeah, I've been considering that also. I don't know where I'm at, where I land on that. Yeah, I look at like, okay, if someone at their house were making pressing their own pills and making their own, I'm putting a little of this and I'm putting too a little too much fentanyl and people are dropping dead. Okay. But if someone gets a bunch of shit from somebody else and then buys that, that's they didn't really it. They didn't really, that's so unintentional that, and you know what the other thing is too,

there's a super easy way to avoid that is not buying drugs from people and doing them. I'll never be killed by fucking fentanyl because I don't do fucking powder, drugs, or pills. So it'll literally never happen to me. So I'm not worried about it. I'll never get it. And you're buying whatever drugs you are doing

from a legal source that is a grow operation. Their main job is to keep the shit clean. Yeah, so you'll keep coming back. But this shit here, I just don't see it. I don't see how it's someone else's problem that Matthew Perry won't stop doing fucking drugs. You know what I mean? Yeah. Like, I get that you if someone intentionally knew this

was poison and was giving it to people, great. But otherwise, I mean, the doctors certainly know that it's poison. The doctors. Yes. Michael Jackson's guy. Yeah, that guy knew to prison with you. Yeah. Regular street drug dealers to charge them with murder seems a little bit that's high, right? It seems a little bit that's high right it seems a little bit high like I said I feel like Matthew Perry would have gotten he would have licked the drugs out of a fucking leaking injection site out of between someone's toes if he had to fucking to get drugs I know people love Matthew Perry and they'll Matthew Perry they'll be mad I'm saying this but for fuck's sake how many fucking decades can you do drugs before you just go this guy loves to fucking do drugs, period.

Something bad's gonna happen, it's no one's fault but his own. That's it. The other part is like the doctors that sold it to him, sold it to him at insane prices. Yes. Because the quote unquote ketamine queen was selling him at like fucking rock bottom as far as I'm concerned prices. She got like 11 grand out of him for like almost three times as much as the doctor sold to him for 55 grand 55 grand. Yeah, they're dirtbags those guys. I completely fucking agree. Yeah, I don't know though about this whole that that's it's a fascinating world of like

I don't know. I guess that that's one way to keep the shit from getting onto the streets But then now you've got drug addicts that are fucking insane for drugs. Yes. In comedy, there's been quite a few incidents in comedy in the last 10 years of comedians ODing, doing coke that had fentanyl in it and fucking ODing, some of them dying, some of them not dying. It's happened quite a lot. So we've heard about this kind of before the public really got on the

Edge with this shit. We were hearing about it and Even if I liked coke I would never fucking do coke now because it's so all of its fun Yeah, it's so fucked up. It's so fucked how we've known so many people so you know Risks you're taking and you're doing yeah anything other than weed at this point You know the risks you're taking and but I'll tell you this though mad flattering when somebody says I'm gonna go do coke Do you want to go how cool? Yeah, that's a nice thing. Look at me. That's so nice. Yeah, that is nice I don't very nice, but that is okay. That's perfectly okay, but no no, I don't want to die with you tonight on Don't want to be mentioned in an article with you

in this bathroom. No, not even a little bit. So now under the, artists by the way, in the drug matter here, he's pleaded guilty to conspiracy to distribute drugs and possession of a stolen handgun. So apparently a couple of fingers still work. Not good, yeah.

Under the terms of the plea bargain, he faces a maximum sentence of six years in prison. The judge can require that he serve two years of the term with no opportunity for parole. Artis said he participated in the operation only once in December 85 when he delivered less than a gram of cocaine to a Hawthorne man and was paid $50. If that's true, not exactly a kingpin here. We're gonna rock him up next to Pablo, stop it. He said the gun was left in his car by a friend of a friend. Probably just, no. You gotta make that excuse when there's drugs

and guns involved, because they're gonna put you away for 30. Yeah, exactly. Artis said his decision to plead rather than stand trial, he said it was a shotgun wedding type of thing. Got no choice. Got no choice here, yeah. His co-defendant, Rosemarie Linda Hicks,

claimed Artis was her half partner in the venture, which operated from December 85 till April of 86. Jesus, they didn't get a whole lot going on. We're going 50-50 on half a gram? Yeah, well, she's saying he was half in the whole operation, not just in one gram. Yeah, she got the other. She got 25 of that.

So it's the 50 he was paid. She got 25. It's rough. So Hendrick said that artists took her to the site in New York City where the cocaine was purchased. Hendrick said that she and artists supplied the money for the drugs and split the profits in New York City where the cocaine was purchased. Hendricks said that she and Artis supplied the money for the drugs and split the profits in half. She says she's been a drug addict for the past 25 years and has received treatment since

December. She pleaded guilty to conspiracy to distribute drugs and possession of drugs with intent to distribute them, which sounds like the same thing. She faces also six years as well. The state alleged that Artis and Hendrix lived together in her house on Ringwood Avenue and ran the cocaine operation with Christine McGahey, who's 44, and the prosecution alleged that the two homes served as bases to sell drugs in Patterson Hawthorne, Tatua, Bloomingdale, and Wayne in Passaic County, and Teterboro in Bergen County. Okay, and they said that McGahey pleaded guilty in April

and was waiting to testify against Artisan Hicks. But now won't have to. And there's a few other people here that pleaded. February 27th, 1988. Back to Ruben Carter here. The state is seeking a third murder trial against him. Superior Court Judge Ralph V. Martin signs an order dismissing the indictment against Carter and John Artis. Finally, absa-fucking-lutely, Carter said, I'm joyous with the result and deeply satisfied that justice has finally been done and the charges have been dismissed. Fucking finally. Carter has been living in seclusion they said and that he would meet with reporters the next week basically. Wow Carter artists also said I'm fairly relieved. He said that from a phone in the northern state prison on

his drug charges so he, I've spent half my life to fight to bring this matter to an end. Artis said he hasn't spoken with Carter since prosecutors last week announced that they would not seek a third trial in the case, but the two remain friends. Prosecutors said a dismissal of the charges were justified because of the passage of time since the killings, problems finding witnesses, court decisions discrediting previous testimony, and the burden posed by a third prosecution. Basically what the fuck are you talking about?

Why would we do this again? In 1989, Rubin leaves the United States. For what? Canada. Okay. Yep. To be with his newfound friends and family, he said. And he eventually became a Canadian citizen as well. Really?

And was briefly married to one of his supporters who were trying to get him out of jail. Attaboy. Yep. Not too bad. That's pretty good for him, I would say. Ruben says that he's happy to be in Canada. When people come to interview him, he says, welcome to my home. He's very excited.

They describe that he lives in, let's see, the small, powerful man waiting and smiling at the top of the curving driveway is like a black diamond set in the paint box colors of a Toronto summer, clean emerald lawns, flag blue sky, freshly painted white of a country clapper mansion. Welcome to my home, Ruben Carter says. How the fuck did he get all this money now again? Good for him, yeah. Good for him.

So they said his zigzag life has taken him to this green and sheltering country estate just outside of Toronto and soon to Canadian citizenship. They said, a graceful road winds through thickly covering trees and velvet lawns to the restored 19th century country house he shares with the people who helped clear his name and whose aim is now to lap him in beauty, comfort and gentleness. What the fuck? Just ensconce the man in beauty, comfort, and gentleness. What the fuck? Just ensconced the man in beauty. One of his friends said,

"'We want to give Ruben his life back.'" And all of them, including his wife, insist on remaining anonymous. They said, "'Too many people have tried to piggyback on Ruben's fame. "'This is his story. "'We don't want to be identified.'" Yeah, but how do you get such a luxurious home when you've spent so much time in prison?

It's other people's houses. They're letting them stay there. Yeah. They said in a deck chair beside their pool, Ruben and his friend T, that's the only thing they'll give an initial, enjoying the early summer sun talk of their coming together. The spacious old Ontario house is beautifully renovated, decorated in woods and softly toned velvets, Albukson rugs, original lithographs,

and old master prints. Jesus. In the back, a Jeep Cherokee and late model Mercedes are parked. What? Upstairs. Yeah, they're doing great over here. What's going on? Wow.

Upstairs is a word processor on which the Hurricane is turning out a second volume of his memoirs. What? A movie deal has been struck with American producer. We know that. That's coming. We need to make some money. It's taken a great, great deal of money to do the everything we have done, the Hurricane

says. My teeth alone have cost almost $16,000. Yeah, I believe that. Yeah, all those years they were falling out. But $16,000, I do find it hard to justify to myself spending money on that, money like that for your teeth while there are people who don't have anything to eat. Well, you won't be able to eat without teeth, so. Yeah.

And now you don't have any food either because you put 16 grand in your mouth. Exactly. And they said too Rubes teeth were so bad he couldn't even eat one of his friends said his hair was all falling out I don't know what that has to do with anything else but he got teeth so now his hair came back. Yeah he came on back doesn't he look great now though young and healthy and Carter says Canadians have been very thoroughly connected with this case. Canadians should be, if they knew, very proud. I am proud of them.

They said the big country house is shared by two married couples, three singles and some of their children. Rubin's wife is a psychologist and a lively former divorcee in her mid-40s with a grown son. His friend said we share a community of interest who here, please don't call it a commune. That's such a sixties cliche. No, this is just a bunch of rich people living in a fucking cool big house together. This is way different. Pretty bad ass. Yeah. This is like a country club.

This is yeah, this is like heaven's gate without the suicide and the fucking science fiction or a high rise in fucking New York City. Yeah. So, um, five of the seven friends, including the T person and his sister first through their lot together in 1970, a Yorkville textile import business called the five believers basics. How do you not call it a commune or a cult at this point? Believers, five believers.

Hmm. Several of them came from wealthy backgrounds. T and his sister were children of a Toronto businessman and do-gooder who with his wife was interested in third world development and adult education. He said, I went to Upper Canada College, was expected to wind up doing corporate law, living in the right part of town. The group included black and white writers and professionals. They bought a house on a Walmer Road ravine lot, concerned themselves with what might be called a socially conscious projects. Okay. So they went from pollution control and then they picked up Rubin as their next project

apparently. In 1979, one of them wrote Rubin in prison and said, I read your book. I think it's a tragedy. I'm coming down with my family and I'd like to meet you. And yeah, so but he said there was no calls, no visits, no nothing. His first wife married somebody else, divorced and married somebody else. And yeah, so he also said he was suspecting his wife of contributing to the legal betrayal. He thinks his wife told him something or did some shit.

Backstabbed him, yeah. Yeah. Rubin said, talking about prison, he had withdrawn far from prison reality, far from himself. He said, that was a point in my life when I had decided I needed some help. I was getting letters from people all over the world, some asking for autographs, some asking for some ridiculous curiosity thing, or other. Some asking to come and visit. I would always put these things off, but for some reason the one guy's letter

struck a chord. It spoke to me. There was something about it I could not answer. I had to do it. I could not not answer. There was no choice. I had to meet. I had to come out of isolation. I had to meet him. It was a magic magic thing. Okay, so apparently Ruben says that they brought me out, showed me myself again. His wife now is it was a mirror to me. The only way a woman can be for a man. That's a weird thing to say. Wow. That's that's interesting.

They said they started sending in feasts. The tea guy says crab meat, chocolate eclairs. We felt we were repaying many years of eating nothing. Then we'd send him Persian carpets, Picasso prints for the walls. It was an interesting, important psychological step for him to be able to accept that. Wow, so fucking weird, man. What a weird group of people. I don't even understand why they're doing it.

I don't either. That's what I don't understand. Because the man was behind bars for so long, we give him like things that fucking eccentric billionaires get? Like what are we talking about? So fucking weird. They said the next two and a half years became a bizarre period of luxurious time marking for Ruben, his new wife and their two friends.

We decided the only way to live anonymously, one black man and three whites was to live rich. I went by the name Robin Wellington. First we took an $8,000 a month, $8,000 a month Park Avenue apartment. Do you know how much fucking money that is now? What that place would be now? I mean, Wellington's the right word for the right name for a place that lives there. Yeah, no shit. Fuck, man. But an $8,000 a month Park Avenue apartment would be, I can't even know. 50 grand today? Oh, that's just adjusted for inflation, but then the prices in New York are way more.

That would be a, I don't even know what that would be. That would be a 40 million dollar apartment probably, a Park Avenue apartment. They said then we moved to Bedford just up the road which is a very rich area from our from the RJ Reynolds family just up the road from them what yeah and Ivan Boeske who was another guy there a real rich guy they all just assumed that we belonged there yeah if you have money they don't care fortune? Yeah They got cancer money those people yeah, no shit They said it wasn't until the January 1988 that the US Supreme Court Quashed the New Jersey appeal attempt and then it was dismissed and Rubin and the lawyers and believers celebrated in a

$2,000 party at the New York Plaza Hotel with Dylan's hurricane playing joyously on the tip tape deck Plaza Hotel with Dylan's Hurricane playing joyously on the tape deck. On loop more than fucking grandma got run over by the reindeer. Yeah, just over and fucking over and over again here. They said for everyone who like him made it through, he says thousands were turning into hamburger. John Artis, who's still in jail by the way, John Artis is a former Eagle Scout and high school sports hero who had no criminal record when he was picked up with Ruben.

That's fucking funny. And ruined his life. Yeah, that's, fuck man. So the problem is this all sounds really great, but there is strict rules in this house too. This is a commune of weird rich people, OK. Essentially Rubin liked to drink is the problem. He still liked to drink and didn't like the rules of the compound. And then instead moved out and moved into a brick house in Toronto's West End where he had a really nice rose garden.

That's a fact. Rubin had a rose garden when he gave up alcohol. He said it was his decision not theirs. When he gave up alcohol, he said it was his decision, not theirs. And that's how it is. Carter was chosen to be the executive director of the Association in Defense of the Wrongly Convicted, the Toronto nonprofit foundation here, formed in 1993. They said he dominated the room with a mixture of power and humor and decisiveness. The man with a commanding voice and an infectious laugh forged close bonds with wrongly convicted that he worked to free, a lengthy list that

included Guy Paul Morin, David Milgaard and Steven Truskett. So, 1996, April 14th here. Okay. He was arrested in Toronto. Mistakenly, apparently Ruben is. Yes. Uh, I guess the drug squad detectives arrested Ruben after he left a Toronto restaurant. He was immediately handcuffed told he was being arrested for selling drugs to an undercover officer and it was put in the back of an unmarked police car. He was held for 30 minutes though. And then they let him go. Yeah.

Apparently they had the wrong guy. He said, this is Rubin. It was like a nightmare. The last time I was told I was under arrest, I didn't see the light of day for 20 years. They said they were conducting a sweep of an area known for drug trafficking and said that Carter was arrested because he matched the description given by an undercover officer who bought drugs from a man in his 30s and had entered the restaurant 20 minutes before Carter left. He's 60 by the way. He's 60 years old.

What a compliment. Well, that's great. You look great, sir. Martin admitted it was unusual to arrest a 60 year old when the suspect was supposed to be in his 30s, but he said the discrepancy could partly be explained by Carter's fitness. And amazing teeth. He thought maybe he was, and he's got great teeth and full head of hair came out of nowhere. Carter said the police acted too quickly arresting him without asking for identification or anything. So yeah, he said that he's upset and he's considering suing the city of Toronto for arresting him.

Because he needs money. He probably needs money. Also in 1996, he received the Abolition Award from the Death Penalty Focus group in 1996. So he does that. December 29, 1999, The Hurricane starring Denzel Washington and the lead role was released. That's when it came out? 1999. Wow.

Yeah, because when we looked that up, because remember we got the Ving Rhames movie was two years later. I thought it was so much later though. No. Even knowing that, back four weeks ago, I still lock it in my brain that, I guess Ali came out in 08, huh?

Yeah, oh shit. 06, something like that? 06, yeah, that came out in my brain that, I guess Ali came out in 08, huh? 06, something like that? Yeah, that came out in the 2000s, 05, some shit like that. They said that Carter discussed at a lecture how he fell in love with Washington's portrayal of him during auditions for the hurricane. You don't wanna piss this guy off. Oh, during auditions,

so I think Carter was in on the whole process. Yeah, probably, yeah. So that's pretty cool. Noting that boxer, Marvelous Marvin Hagler, who I fucking love, great fighter, and actors Wesley Snipes and Samuel L. Jackson also tried for the role. Samuel's too skinny.

Sam's too skinny for that shit. Yeah, he's not a boxer. He's not a boxer, no. And he's tall, isn't he? Yeah, he's not a middle weight boxer. Right. It's not gonna work. Snipes would've, isn't he? Yeah, he's not a middleweight boxer. Right. It's not gonna work. Snipes would have been great, and Snipes needed money back then too.

He had fucking IRS problems like crazy. He had IRS problems. But we know he can play an athlete, because he's a terrible baseball player, and he was great in Major League. Do you know anything about that? He was a basketball player too, and he did great in Waverly Can't Jump. Yeah, they said he was terrible. Wesley, by the way, if you watch fucking Major League, watch in all the baseball scenes,

you'll never see him throw a ball. Really? He throws like a girl, they said. He threw horribly, and he never got any better at it. So they said every time he goes to throw, you'll see as his arm cocks back, they'll cut away to where it's going, because they can't show him

throwing because it looks so bad. It's funny. He said it was immediately not a Major League Baseball player when you see that. He can run like one and stand there with a bat like one, but throwing... Great abs like one. You can either throw or you can't. You know what I mean? It's one of those things.

And he couldn't. Very funny. So for his performance as Carter, Washington won the Golden Globe Award for best actor there. He was also nominated for an Academy Award for best actor and didn't win here. Who beat him in 99? Probably Leo. Oh no, Leo didn't win one for a long time.

No, no, especially not for, Titanic was 97 anyway. Oh was it? Yeah, I guess so. Yeah, 99, no fucking idea. Probably one of those like foreign film people or some shit who knows the little Italian guy who ran on the tiger running dragon or whatever yeah the little Italian dude who ran on the top of the seats to get up to the stage remember that guy that was around that time I don't know maybe that guy. So Joey

Giordello sued the film's producers for libel over the depiction of his fight with Carter The case was settled out of court and Norman Jewison the director agreed to make a statement on the DVD version that Giardello no doubt was a great fighter. He said you made me look bad Why that's not how the fight went down? That I guess if they use his name then yeah, it looks like a documentary Yeah, exactly. It looks like that sort of thing. But I mean, it's real. I mean, it's fictionalized.

Who the fuck watches any Hollywood movie from a Paramount or Miramax and goes, this is going to be historically accurate? It's exactly correct. Yeah. And especially, who remembered one of a sea of boxers in a montage of him beating the shit out of people you know What I mean no one can oh that Joey Giordello sure a loser isn't he? Oh his family probably remembers. Yeah So the movie has is seven point six out of ten on IMDB at the moment here in

2004 he left his position Ruben does as executive director of the Association in defense of the wrongly convicted because he believed it was not strong enough in opposing the appointment of a judge who had prosecuted Guy Morin, who was one of the people he got freed. One guy said he had tremendous obstinacy, but that's what got him through. You can be nothing but glad he had it and admire him for it. and admire him for it. So March 10th 19 or I'm sorry 2012 he's now leaving Canada because he found out that he has terminal prostate cancer. Yep terminal prostate cancer. By the way this time he's calling him John Artis his best friend at this point so that's nice. Revealed the tragic news when they spoke alongside each other at a gala dinner

For the International Justice Conference They said mr. Artist told the Sunday Times despite being grave gravely ill the 74 year old was determined to continue with his work and had used the Justice Washington event as a Motivation to rebuild his health you can't really your't, well you're going down from cancer, I don't know what the rebuilding is. What are you gonna rebuild? If it's terminal, that means it's not just his prostate. It's beyond that, and he's in a lot of trouble.

You can't rebuild that, dude. That's gonna be tough to rebuild. He explained that when he first visited Carter after learning of the diagnosis, his friend could not walk and could barely talk, but now he's much stronger, thanks to his desire to speak at the event. Oh, just because he wants to?

He wants to, yeah. Well, I mean, he's a fucking, got a lot of will, this guy. I suppose. Artis said coming to Perth was his motivation. I found out about his illness eight months ago and was told by doctors there was nothing more they could do. He only weighed 105 pounds at that point, Reuben. So I said to him, what do you want to do? And he said that he wanted

to be able to walk and talk and go back to work. He said he had to come here. He told me to come to Australia for Justice WA. Mr. Carter was one of a number of high profile guests who took place and took part in this whole thing. So yeah, his friend said that Rubin has come to grips with his disease. He's fine with it now, but he's not going to give up. He's just looking to go until he can't go any longer. He said, and while I try not to think about him going, when his torch burns out, I will pick up that torch and keep going until my torch burns out.

As for right now, Ruben isn't thinking like that. I heard him say to someone the other day, he ain't got time to die. That's what he's like. Wow. Ain't got time to die. Well, the doctors gave him time. They gave him between three and six months to live. Jesus.

John Artis then moved in with him to care for him. Really? Yes. Cold-blooded murderer, obviously. Yeah. Clearly just a cold... Bad guy. Bad guy.

April 20th, 2014. He couldn't take that it was Hitler's birthday and he checked out. He's like, fuck Hitler, and he dies. So... I'm gonna try to take this holiday as mine. As mine now. Yep, he spent... Here he is he died in Toronto. So obviously from cancer Clearly he passed away in his home

One guy here who worked with him said I don't think he really understood his own importance He led he lent his voice and because he thought if I could help great I don't think he did it if I could help, great. I don't think he did it thinking he could move mountains, even though I thought he could. So yeah, there you go. He's dead. That's crazy.

Fucking artists outlived him. He did. Well, he's 10 years younger, which helps. Yeah, but artists are diagnosed with a shit disease for 20 years at this point. Yeah, forever. Fuck, man. He's been falling apart since the 70s. Dropping body parts all over the place.

Carter had just written an essay, an opinion essay, for the New York Daily News in February arguing vehemently for the release of David McCollum, a convicted kidnapper and murderer in 1985. He also briefly mentioned his health, saying he was quite literally on my deathbed. He said I request only that McCallum be granted a full hearing by the Brooklyn Conviction Integrity Unit under the auspices of the new district attorney Ken Thompson. Knowing what I do I'm certain that when the facts are brought to light Thompson will recommend his immediate release just as my own verdict was predicated on racism rather than reason and

on concealment rather than disclosure. So Carter said, now I'm looking death straight in the eye. He's got me on the ropes, but I won't back down. That's the Tom Petty took that part out of the song. That was one verse he took out. He's like looking death straight in the eye, got me on the ropes, but I won't be acting. No, no, no. We'll take that part out. None of that rhymes. That's no good. From pushing me. There we go. That's better. Harry, I got it, guys. Guys, come on. I got

it. Get back in here. I don't know what I was thinking with the boxing metaphors. I'm sorry, but I think I'm not track now. Maybe I'll try him in Running Down a Dream. Yeah, maybe I'll try that. It's a different song. He was afterwards cremated, and his ashes were scattered in part over Cape Cod, and in part at a horse farm in Kentucky.

What? Didn't expect that, did you? Run him down the Cape. That's where he always wanted to be. That came out of nowhere. The Cape and a horse farm. OK. On October 15, 2014, McCallum was exonerated. That came out of nowhere. The Cape and a horse farm. Okay. On October 15th, 2014, McCallum was exonerated,

which was the year he wrote that. 2021, at the age of 75, John Artis died of an abdominal aortic aneurysm. So he's dead too, they're all dead. Abdominal aortic? What's in this? Is your chest your abdomen still? It is, right? I suppose so Domino aortic? What's in there? Yeah. Is your chest, your abdomen still? It is, right?

I suppose so. That sounds like a heart attack, right? I think so. No, it's some sort of... Some aorta erupted? Any blood to death? Yeah, an aneurysm might have... I mean, that could go from anywhere.

You have an artery, there's an aneurysm. But he says... Domino aortic aneurysm. I don't know. Who knows? Anyway, can't get enough of Reuben? Well, you could watch Denzel Washington. Fucking play him in a movie. You could also buy a Reuben Hurricane Carter autographed white boxing robe.

Fucking awesome. Yeah, check it out. I had a white one? Hell yeah. That looks cool. Reuben Hurricane Carter. Oh, that's right. Yeah, it looks badass, man. It's pretty good. That's what Denzel wore in the movie. Yeah, it's got a certificate of authenticity for whatever that's worth as we talked about in patreon Also a Ruben Hurricane Carter signed Everlast boxing glove as well The robes you can get 59.99 that bad boy. What that's that's where it started on eBay

That's not you're getting that that's cool $13 shipping and handling and what's the buy it now the that there is none It's a big thing and then the the other one here the glove is $258.50 or best offer so that's a little bit more where the fucking robe man. Yeah, just wear it out Hell yeah, that's a dinner with it. I will hang that next to my fucking shower. I'll wear it every morning. It's a good thing there. That's fun shit.

So anyway, there you go everyone. That is Ruben Hurricane Carter and everything else here. You're rude to him but man he was such a dick before and after too. Like the lavish spending and shit. Like you didn't have that money, man. No, that's, no, not at all. Just, wow.

It's fucking wild, man. That's weird. Either way though, there you go. That's Ruben Carter. He was convicted, exonerated, convicted, exonerated. Almost fucking tried again. Certainly didn't do that. And that case, is it just fucking unsolved?

It's unsolved. Yeah, they don't know who the fuck they are. There's no way to know anybody. They didn't know then who did it. They just blamed it on them. And then they didn't investigate it anymore. So if they wanted to find out who did it, they probably should have investigated it in 1966 rather than blame two guys that didn't do it.

Pocket stuff full of money from the establishment where people were murdered. That would help probably, yeah. Maybe start with him and work backwards. But there you go. If you like that, please tell everyone that you've ever met about the show and what we do here and that they should listen to this show. Leave a review, give us five stars on whatever app you're listening on.

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goddamn people in the world who would never try to falsely convict us of murder three fucking times hit me with them right now this week's executive producer cat power dying alone in Rochester Jordan Bennett Tara and frosty I hang in there Tara things are gonna get better I swear it and Franny Executive producers are Kat Power, Dying Alone in Rochester, Jordan Bennett, Tara and Frosty. Hang in there Tara, things are going to get better, I swear it. And Franny and Oz, miss you so much Fran, you're so great. Thank you. Other producers this week are Peyton Meadows, Liz Vasquez, Laura Turner and Frankie Sue,

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I guess so. Ange. Hey, Ange. Buffy Hanok Honak. E15. E15 times. Will Sparks, Leah Osborne, Amy Gustafson. Gustafson, Tim Phelps.

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