Crime Junkie - MURDERED: Peggy Reome

Episode Date: April 5, 2021

When a mother of three walks out her front door and into the New York morning, she leaves a trail of heartbreak, suspicion, and unanswered questions in her wake. It takes almost 15 years for investigators to finally untangle the truth about her disappearance –and the unimaginable reason behind it all.For resources on child sexual abuse, including what to look for and how to file a report, visit www.d2l.org For current Fan Club membership options and policies, please visit https://crimejunkieapp.com/library/. Source materials for this episode cannot be listed here due to character limitations. For a full list of sources, please visit https://crimejunkiepodcast.com/murdered-peggy-reome/ 

Hi, Crime Junkies. I'm your host, Ashley Flowers. And I'm Brett. And today's episode is one that is really important to us here at Audio Check because April is Child Abuse Prevention Month here in the United States. And for the past few months, we've been working with an organization called Darkness to Light, which is doing really difficult but really important work to address childhood sexual abuse. I know this is a hard thing to think about. It's even harder to talk about, but that is why we need to be talking about it.

And if you have children of your own or plan to someday, or even if there are just children in your life that you want to love and want to help protect, then please stay tuned until the end of this episode because we've also included some really helpful information from our partners at Darkness to Light about what you should look for in terms of spotting childhood sexual abuse, what to do if you suspect it's happening, and how to protect the kids you love. But first, I want to tell you a story. A story about a mother of three who walked out her front door into the New York morning

and never came home, leaving a mess of heartbreak, suspicion, and unanswered questions in her wake. It took almost 15 years for investigators to finally untangle the horrifying truth about what happened and why. This is the story of Peggy Realme. It's a cold night in February in 1990 in Syracuse, New York, and 14-year-old Jerry Lynn Realme can't stop thinking about her mom, Peggy. Peggy, who is 31 years old, was a no-show at Jerry Lynn's 14th birthday party a few days ago. And while Jerry Lynn and her brothers Scott and Bill live with their dad, whose name is Jerry, full-time, they still see their mom at least once every couple of weeks.

And Jerry Lynn was definitely expecting something on her birthday. So, like, if not an in-person visit, I mean, at least a telephone call. Right, it's her birthday. But it's been over a month since Jerry Lynn and her brothers saw their mom. It was actually Scott's birthday on January 17th when they last saw her. And at the time, Peggy seemed totally fine. She brought cake, she brought ice cream, she even got him a watch as a gift. So, how long has it been since they saw her or talked to her on the phone then?

So, at this point, it's like been about six weeks since they've seen her. But, you know, I think it's important to point out, like, I know six weeks sounds like a really long time. Like, if you didn't see your kids for six weeks, we would, like, think you're dead. Right. Because you see them every single day. But Peggy didn't have her kids. Like, she didn't have custody of them. She did not see them every day.

And a lot of media coverage from the time suggests, or, I mean, in some cases, outright says that Peggy was known to disappear from time to time. John Geordi reported in the Syracuse Post Standard that it wasn't entirely out of character for Peggy to take off for a couple of days even. Honestly, like, a couple of weeks at a time. Like, apparently there was one time that Peggy dropped her kids off at her mom's for dinner and then just, like, didn't come back for three weeks. So it was normal to not see her for a while.

But even knowing all of that, six weeks is a really long stretch. Peggy was never gone this long. And even when she was gone for a couple of weeks, she always came home. I mean, she loved her kids. She would never just leave. Right. And this is a birthday, too. Exactly.

Again, to not even get a phone call is very upsetting for them. And you can see why. Now, Jerry Lynn's dad agrees that this is totally off, and so they call the Syracuse City Police to report Peggy missing. This is now February 26. And when investigators start digging into the case, this portrait of Peggy starts to emerge. Peggy's kids say that their mom worked a lot, like, all the time based on what Jerry Lynn says. Now, I'm not saying the kids are great at assessing how much their parents actually work.

Yeah. I mean, my son was always confused about what we did, like, all day, every day, until we went into lockdown last year. And we were just all always home together. But, I mean, my husband, I still kept working from home. And I remember being a kid. It was, like, really tough to conceptualize what working even looked like until I actually was, like, old enough to be in the workforce, you know? Well, and even more than that, it's not necessarily like what it looks like,

but just, like, how much time they actually spent. Like, I can see a young kid being like, my dad works all the time, but, like, you know, dad goes to work eight to five. And it's a very normal schedule for what we adults would say is normal. And I think what confuses kids even more is, like, again, if the schedule is any different, maybe then their, like, school schedule, where, you know, if they get home and then a parent is working a second or third shift and they're, like, going off to work, it might seem like they're working even more. And that was the situation in Peggy's case because she actually did work the night shift

as a taxi driver and or a waitress sometimes. And Jeff Stage reported for the Syracuse Herald Journal that because of her work hours, you know, Peggy rarely was able to wake up before noon. That was her time to sleep. So what I'm thinking is that she might have either been, like, working or sleeping during the hours that her kids would normally be around or normally see their parents, which might make it seem like she worked even more. Anyway, everyone police talk to says Peggy has a bit of a tough edge.

Like, she's not the easiest person to get along with and she's tough. Like, she's never going to be one to back down from a fight. But all that being said, like, everyone actually really likes her and the people who know her love her. And even though she, you know, might be rough around the edges, for sure she doesn't have any enemies that her friends and family know of. And no one can think of anyone who would want to do her any harm. What they also learned from Peggy's friends and family is that the last time anyone saw her

was on Valentine's Day when two of her friends say Peggy stopped by a local restaurant where they worked to return some money to one of them that she had, like, borrowed and then she grabbed a cup of coffee. Totally normal interaction. And before that, the last physical proof that they have of Peggy is from January 23rd when she renewed her driver's license. Okay, but she has this history of kind of disappearing here and there. Isn't it kind of logical to think that she may have just left on her own?

Yes, but again, I think it comes back to how long she's been gone. It has never lasted six weeks. So Peggy's whole family, I mean, even including her ex-husband and kids, say like, listen, this is out of character, even for her. Because unlike the other instances in the past, like, if she did leave on her own, she would take her things with her. And this is one of the biggest things. When she left, apparently she left without any of her things.

Like, we're talking no extra clothes, no car, no ID, no money, nothing. Okay, but that's also kind of assuming that she had her, you know, wits about her when she left. True, yeah. It could have been a mental health incident, do we know if she has any history of mental illness? So there's no history of mental illness that I could find nothing publicly anyway. Though it was 1990 at the time, which is, you know, completely different in terms of how people, not even how they talk about it, but just the fact that back then they really didn't talk about mental health issues right. But the one thing I did see is that police do ask Peggy's relatives what she was like the last time that they saw her.

Like, did they notice any changes in her demeanor or mood or anything like that? And everyone says like, you know, she seemed fine. She didn't seem depressed. She wasn't upset about anything. Like when we saw her, she was totally normal. And the one thing that they keep stressing to police, I mean, you know, more than all of this is abnormal, is that Peggy would never walk out on her family. Like she cared about her kids.

According to an episode of Cold Case Files called Where's Peggy? She was super protective of them too. And not only that, she wasn't much of a traveler either. According to her sister Karen, Peggy had never even left New York state. Like ever in her life? Yeah, like in her life. So where is she going to go without it? This time she's hopping on a plane and going somewhere with no car, no money, no clothes, no nothing.

So at this point, no one investigators have spoken to is sure exactly where Peggy disappeared to. But there is one more person police want to talk to. And that's Peggy's boyfriend, George Geddes. Peggy had been living with George at the time of her disappearance. And actually, Jerry Lynn had been living with them too, up until like mid-January when she moved in with her dad and brothers. And we know that George has at least one child too. He has this eight-year-old son. And it's possible that the son lived with them too or at least like he had some kind of visitation. But I wasn't able to confirm that.

So police don't need to go far to find George. In fact, he has been right under their nose all along because he has been locked up in county jail since February 12th. What for? Well, George is facing some pretty serious charges, actually. Second-degree rape, second-degree sexual abuse, and endangering the welfare of a child. He was also on probation at the time. So I mean, this is like a bad look for him across the board. Now, when investigators confront him, George tells police that he has no idea where Peggy is, but he should like to know.

Because he says that the last time he spoke to or saw her was the day before he was arrested, which would have been the morning of February 11th. He says that Peggy sent him out to pick up cigarettes at like seven in the morning. And when he got back, she was just gone. Now, according to George, there was just one set of footprints in the snow leading out to the road. And that was it. As far as he could tell, the only thing she took with her was a couple of bags of clothes. Now, when they ask him, like, you know, would there be any reason that Peggy would want to leave? George tells police that things between him and Peggy had been a little stormy lately.

So he says that he thought Peggy was actually having an affair with another man, and he had confronted her about it. And they had just been fighting a lot. So, you know, she walks out, she doesn't come back, he thinks that it's just because they're fighting, like, she's going to maybe go see this other man. And like, maybe that's why he didn't call police right away. And obviously, like, police are a little dubious about George's story. I mean, it's tough to take the word of a man who's literally sitting behind bars on some pretty serious charges. But when police go talk to the other tenants in the apartment building that Peggy and George had been living in, one of them actually corroborates at least one part of George's story

and says that they heard a pretty loud argument coming from Peggy and George's apartment on the night of February 10th. Wait, but he said the last time you saw her was the 11th? Yeah, so this one is saying the 10th, he said the 11th. The thing I don't know is, you know, are we talking like the very early warning hours of the 10th? I think what the sources are saying is that the part that was corroborated was that they had some kind of argument around the 10th or 11th. But that's, like, the least interesting thing police learn from the people who live in that building, though. And I'm not talking, you know, when I say their apartment building, this isn't some, like, big multi-unit building. This is a small complex, like, literally four apartments in total.

So everyone there sees and hears pretty much everything. And one of the neighbors, this guy named Butch, oh, does he have a story to tell? According to the Cold Case Files episode I mentioned, Butch says that he was at home one night, kind of minding his own business when he starts hearing all these noises coming from the building's stairwell. So he goes out to see what's going on and he finds George lugging this, like, big, rectangular, flat-top trunk. It's actually called a steamer trunk. And he's, like, lugging this down the stairs. And when I say luggy, not holding, like, thump, thump, thump, as he's, like, going, like, dragging it down.

Me with, like, a suitcase any time I'm getting ready to go to the airport. So Butch is like, you know, hey, man, can I help you with that? Because he's clearly struggling over there. And George kind of, like, pushes him off. He's like, no, no, no, no, I'm fine. And tries to, like, rush away. Butch even asks him, like, okay, well, what's in the trunk that's so heavy? And George tells him that it's full of tools and saw blades, stuff like that,

which isn't that outrageous since George is a contractor by trade. So, you know, George is just trying to get him to go away. He's like, listen, I'm in a hurry, man. And so he just, like, loads this steamer trunk into the back of his truck and drives off. When police ask George about this whole encounter, he says, yes, everything Butch said is true. And the reason that he was lugging this trunk full of tools down the stairs was because he was selling those tools to someone. Like, he had someone lined up to buy them already and he was taking them to this local bar

to drop them off with this other person or whatever. But when police pressed him for more details, like, okay, what's the bar? Who's the person? Like, this would be super easy to check out. George is like, ah, I don't know. I was like, I was super drunk that night. I can't remember who I sold them to or even what bar it was. Like, he gives them no details that they can, like, verify the story with. Right. So that feels super shady.

Do you know when this actually supposedly happened? I've looked and I wasn't able to find an exact date listed anywhere. But I'm guessing, you know, based on everything else I pieced together, that Butch was alleging that it was either February 10th or 11th. So the same timeframe we're talking about, you know, this argument, the last time he saw her. And the reason I think that is because it couldn't have been after that because remember, George gets locked up in the county jail for some time starting on the 12th.

And so he's locked up from February 12th all the way through March 16th. So did the police search out the trunk at all? Well, they can't, right? Because, like, they couldn't verify any part of his story. So they don't know where it is. They don't know where the tools are that are supposed to have been in there. They've got nothing to go on. But here's the thing.

Butch wasn't the only person that they talked to from the apartment building. Another one of George and Peggy's neighbors tells police George called several times after his arrest from the county jail to ask if Peggy had been back to the apartment or reached out to anyone who lived there. But surprise, surprise, she hadn't. And if she had come back, she would have been in for a shock. Because the landlord for that building actually evicted Peggy and George for not paying rent. What? When?

Well, according to reporting by Mike McAndrew and Rick Moriarty in the Syracuse Post Standard, it was just after George was arrested in February. The landlord tells detectives that all of Peggy's stuff was still in the apartment when he evicted them. But neither George nor Peggy were anywhere to be found. So what he did, which just makes me like clench my fists, is he actually got rid of everything. He got all of their possessions out of the apartment himself. So there's nothing left in the apartment for police to even look at. What did he do with all the stuff?

Well, he said he took it out to the curb initially. And I have no idea where it ended up from there. But I mean, a landfill, maybe someone came by and picked up some stuff. I mean, again, the guy was just doing his job. He's getting stuff out of the apartment so it could be cleaned, rented to new tenants. He had no idea that Peggy was a missing person, just that George was in jail. And she's nowhere to be found, so no one's going to pay rent. But now, thinking back, he says there is one thing that he dragged out to the curb that day that might be of interest to detectives.

He said he dragged out a mattress and the mattress had a blood stain on it. Oh, I know. And get this, according to the landlord, this blood stain was like six to eight inches around. So we're not talking like, oh, a nosebleed drop or something like that. Okay, but you come across this mattress with a blood stain on it. Like, why not call police right away? So this guy, what he says at the time is that he assumed it was period blood. Well, let me give you technical.

In 1990, he said it was a lady's time of the month. But yeah, I mean, again, I don't think it's anything sinister. I think that he just made a bad assumption and he just assumed it was an old stain through the mattress to the curb, along with the rest of the stuff, and everything's gone. So if there was any physical evidence to point to a crime having been committed, it's long gone now. And the landlord says that he hasn't seen or heard from either George or Peggy since he evicted them. So right now, police are stuck in this place that we so often hear about when it comes to missing persons investigation. There's no evidence of foul play, but also no evidence to rule it out. I mean, not even the mattress?

I mean, don't get me wrong. It's shady, but like a blood stain on a mattress that we don't even have in our possession anymore can't prove that something happened. And at this time, I mean, police, if something bad happened, they only really have one good suspect in the case. And that's George. But he was in prison when Peggy disappeared. So if there's, you know, more of a rock solid alibi than prison, I don't know what that is. So they kind of at this point have no choice but to just like move him off the suspect list. And that's kind of where Peggy's case hits a dead end.

Her kids, her siblings, her family, they just kind of like wait and hope months pass a whole year passes. All of it with no sign of Peggy, no sightings, no calls to her children, no activity on her bank account, nothing. And for a while there, there was no sign of George either. You see, he'd been released on March 16th and was scheduled to stand trial on those child abuse charges in October of 90. But he just didn't show up. So do we know anything more about those charges? Honestly, no one knew much at the time because of the age of the victim. The only report from around this era was in one article from January of 1991 that said he was alleged to have raped a 13 year old girl multiple times.

But here's the thing about this whole case. I mean, honestly, our research only turned up three articles total during the first year Peggy was missing. I mean, the first one wasn't even published until April of 1990, the next in January 91, and the last one isn't really about Peggy's disappearance. It's about George, who police were finally able to track down in February of 91 so that he could stand trial on his previous charges. But even though her case isn't moving forward, Peggy's disappearance is never far from anyone's mind. At one point, about a year after she went missing, police actually get a tip that Peggy had been murdered. And this tip said that her body was in the trunk of a junked car on the Onondaga Nation Reservation. But they searched extensively, even with cadaver dogs and found nothing.

And the thing is, even if they were to have found something, I mean, all of this time later, trying to identify remains. I mean, we're talking, it would be skeletal remains at this point. So it's going to be way harder than just like, can you come ID this body? Right. You'd be looking at maybe DNA or dental records, like that kind of thing. Well, I mean, in 2021, we'd be looking at DNA for sure. But again, back in the early 90s, like really all they would have were dental records. But this is what I think would make this case so difficult. And like the challenge that they were going into, apparently detectives don't even have dental records for Peggy.

So even if they had found something, there wasn't much to compare. I mean, the only photo that they have of her is this one that she had taken when she renewed her driver's license shortly before she went missing. Which I know those photos get used a lot for like missing person flyers, stuff like that, especially now. But Ashley, if I ever go missing, please not that one. Your driver's license photo for sure. Yeah, it does not look like me at all. Oh, totally. But unfortunately for Peggy, that's pretty much all they have. They have a driver's license photo of her along with a few x-rays and some fingerprints.

Emily Kolkis reported for the Syracuse Post Standard that the detective leading the case through the 1990s would kind of put out these nationwide teletype messages sometimes, which is basically like, you know, 90s version of like an email kind of giving her description, asking other law enforcement agencies, do you have any unidentified remains matching this description, anything that sounds similar, you know, he would share whatever records he had with them and fingerprints just in case. But it's another six years before there is any other movement in Peggy's case. That's when in November 1997, a hunter in Manlius, which is about 20 minutes from Syracuse, discovers the skeletal remains of a woman.

Now, the forensics are able to determine that the woman was either white or indigenous and likely died between five and 15 years prior. So this is seeming like it could be good, right? Maybe one of these teletypes work, maybe they finally found Peggy. But there's just one problem. According to Jeff Stage's reporting for the Post Standard, the remains are estimated to be from a woman who was five feet, five inches tall. Peggy's reported height is more like five, seven, five, eight. And remember, they don't have access to Peggy's dental records to do a quick comparison.

So to figure out if this woman that they found is Peggy, it takes two years until 1999 before they're able to use familial DNA to definitively rule out this person as being Peggy. In the spring of 2002, a new detective takes over Peggy's file and he goes through everything. All the notes, all the reports, everything his predecessors found out during their previous investigations. I mean, now it's been 12 years since Peggy disappeared. And by this time, everyone does presume that she's deceased. I think everyone's kind of, you know, long gone is the idea that she just ran off or potentially there was some kind of like, you know, mental break. Everyone thinks that foul play was involved.

And in the 12 years of investigating, there has only ever really been one suspect. And that's her boyfriend, George. Wait, but wasn't he in jail? Yeah, so that's the thing. He was in jail from February 12th until March 16th, right? Yeah, but there was also a sighting of her on Valentine's Day. Right, supposedly. But all of these years later, police are thinking it's more likely that the 10th was the last time that she was alive,

that date that they had the fight in the apartment, the fight that people heard. And I mean, you know, George was never a super trustworthy guy to begin with. Like, we can only take his account so far. And the people who did think that they saw her on the 14th, I mean, the thing is, like, people's memories, even from well-intended people, can be really faulty. So at the time, they kind of had to write him off. There wasn't much they can do. But like, again, all of these years later, when you look at everything combined, police are like, it's more likely than not that someone, some of these witnesses have their dates wrong rather than, you know, anything else.

So when this new detective looks at the file, what he sees right at the center of it is George. He sees this convicted felon with a history of domestic violence and no plausible explanation for where his live-in girlfriend might have gone. Right, like one of those, like, when you hear hoof beats, don't look for zebras, right? Yeah, or don't look for cats. So this time, instead of reaching out to George, the officer reaches out to his ex-wife, this woman named Alicia. According to the Cold Case Files episode, Alicia says that her marriage to George had been a violent one. She says that he had a bad temper and he hit her more than once. So the investigator asks Alicia if George ever mentioned anything about a woman named Peggy Rihome.

And she says, well, yes, he told her that she took off to Arizona with another cab driver, which, okay, like, that's the first we're hearing of this 12 years later. So they talk for a bit and before he wraps up the conversation, the officer asks Alicia, is there anything that ever made you sort of scratch your head about George? And Alicia says, I've always wondered about that storage shed. I'm sorry, what storage shed? That's the officer's question exactly. Alicia tells the officer that George had been renting this storage unit in Cicero for the whole time that they were together. It wasn't a big deal.

I mean, like, lots of people have extra stuff in storage and he says that it's where he kept all of his tools. But anytime she tried to ask him anymore about it, he would get super angry and he refused to miss a payment on that unit. Even when money was tight, which was often during the time that he was in prison especially, but he was still adamant that that bill get paid in full on time, never miss one, never be late. I think this is such a great example of why there's nothing that's insignificant to ask about or to question or to look into in cases like this. Or to even like, yeah, tell police if you're being questioned. I think I've heard it said before that a good investigator doesn't ask, did you see anything suspicious? They ask, what did you see?

Because the open-ended question because you never know what might be relevant. Right. You're right. This is the perfect example of that because if he hadn't asked her anything else on your mind, would they never have known about this storage shed? Because wouldn't you know it? When police look into it, they find out that George has been renting that storage shed since 1990. It feels like things are finally starting to come together finally after 12 years. But when they try and get a warrant to search the storage unit, the prosecutor says that he doesn't have enough probable cause.

I'm sorry, how in the world does he not have enough probable cause? Girl, no idea. I'm not a judge. But thankfully, the investigators aren't giving up just yet. You see, it turns out George had gone back to prison in 2001 for a firearms charge and was released in the summer of 2002, which means that he was now on probation. And one of the terms of his probation is that he has to file this like very specific report every month with his probation officer. And I know this all sounds boring, but I promise it's relevant. Britt, I'm going to send you like a little snippet of this form.

If you can read me the top right column in section D. Sure. It says, do you rent or have access to a storage space? Check yes or no. A post office box, yes or no. A safe deposit box, yes or no. And then it says the name and address of location and box number or space number and has room for you to list all of that there. Right.

So this is the form he's been filling out. And do you want to guess how George has been answering the question about the storage unit? Going to go out on a limb and say he's been saying no. Yep. Nose right across the board. So now they have a convicted felon with a secret storage shed that he's been lying about on official forms and a missing ex. So that altogether is all the probable cause that they need to get their search warrant. Now, my timeline is a little fuzzy here because my only source with information on the tip from Alicia about the storage shed is just that one episode of cold case files. But that whole process takes honestly longer than I would have expected because it's not until April 1st 2004 that detectives finally pack up their bolt cutters and head out to see what George has been hiding in Cicero for the last 14 years.

The first thing detectives see when they open the door to the storage shed is the bottom of a green metal steamer style trunk. And when they open the lid, they see two decomposed feet sticking out at the end of a dirty blanket. It takes police a couple of days and a request for help from the public, specifically from any dentist who may have had Peggy's dental records on file. But eventually they're able to confirm what everybody already knows, what everybody already assumes that the body in the steamer trunk is Peggy Realme. She didn't storm off after a heated argument with nothing but a couple of changes of clothes. She didn't move to Arizona with another man. She died at the hands of this man, George Gades, all those years ago. Once they have her, police waste no time arresting George and bringing him into custody. And when they tell him what they found, the storage unit, the trunk, the body, he says it's totally not what it looks like.

It's a body in a trunk in a secret storage shed. What else could it be? Right. Well, he says that the whole thing was this terrible accident, that he never meant to kill Peggy, but that he did it in self-defense. George says that they were fighting, presumably the night of February 10th when all of their neighbors heard the fighting. And he says things just got out of hand. He says Peggy was threatening him and his eight-year-old son, which, you know, again, we don't know a lot about him if he was actually living there, if he was visiting, if he was there at all. But he says that she was threatening them with a knife and George either pushed her or punched her. Like, the story gets a little fuzzy there. And when he did, she fell hitting her head on this, like, wooden buffet as she fell to the ground. George says at that point he didn't know what to do, so he just grabbed the trunk, stuffed her body inside, and took it to the storage unit.

Right. So the good old, I don't know what happened. She just died and I panicked, so I did something that makes me totally look like a murderer thing. Right. I mean, as usual, nobody is buying it. And when the autopsy results come back, they tell a very different story about what happened to Peggy. Peggy's cause of death was blunt force trauma to the head, but not the kind that you'd expect to see if someone just fell and hit their head on a piece of furniture. The blow to Peggy's head was so severe, it nearly broke her skull in half. Oh my God. Girl, skulls don't just break in half. That is something that I don't even think I've uttered on the show before. Jim O'Hara writes in a story for the Post Standard that the damage to Peggy's skull is, quote, consistent with the force of a blow from a baseball bat or a multiple-story fall and not consistent with a fall from a standing position, end quote. Okay, so I don't think either of us believe George's story about the knife. Not at all. No.

I have to believe that neither did the police. But I guess then, what is the motive? Like, is it just an escalation of a bad relationship gone even worse, or is there some other reason? There's some other reason, and police do think they know why George killed Peggy. They just aren't sharing that information, and they don't share it. Actually, someone else shares it for them. Remember back in 1990, how George was arrested right around the time Peggy disappeared and later convicted on those child sex abuse charges? Yeah. Well, what the public learns on the day that George is formally charged with Peggy's murder 14 years later is that that child was Peggy's teenage daughter, Jerry Lynn. She was the one who lived with them until, like, mid-January. It was her birthday that Peggy missed.

Jerry Lynn's identity was protected back in 1990, of course, but in 2004, when George is finally locked up, that's when Jerry Lynn goes public to tell her story. She was only 13 years old at the time, and she says that George was sexually abusing her repeatedly during the time that she was living with him and her mom. She tells the media and the public that in January 1990, George got caught, caught by another adult, and that's when Jerry Lynn finally felt like she could get out of this situation. Like, she finally had this other grown-up to back her up and say that they saw what happened. When she left to go live with her dad that year in mid-January, that is why she left. She didn't want to be in that house anymore. And Jerry Lynn says that she and her dad reported the abuse to police right away, and they say, listen, we are totally on it, but they said, don't let Peggy or George know that you called us. It's not completely clear in the research materials, like, how this information makes its way to George and Peggy, because I'm assuming they didn't want them to know because they didn't want to give them, like, a heads up. But somehow, Jerry Lynn thinks that they end up finding out that they went to police and when Peggy found out.

Let me guess, she went into full mama bear mode because, I mean, I know we say, and at least I do, I never can get into the minds of how people operate, especially the people we talk about on this show. But I have no idea how I could not just want to rip someone limb from limb, finding out something like that. I kill them. I kill them. Yeah. And I have to imagine that I'm sure Peggy had some similar feelings when she found out what was happening. And to find out that not only had it been happening in your home or your child supposed to be safe, but that it had been happening at the hands of someone you thought you loved and trusted, who you invited into that home. And I think for so many people, and you know, I don't know what Peggy was thinking at the time, but I think for so many people, they think like, it can't happen to me. Or this doesn't happen very often, but this happens more often than you think. According to our partners at Darkness to Light, there aren't often any outward or obvious signs a child is being abused.

But there are some other things that you can look for. Like what? Like younger kids might start to get nightmares or what the bed or might even start to display more disturbing behavior like bullying others or being cruel to animals as some kind of like outlet. Another big thing to look for is displaying sexual behavior and using language that isn't age appropriate. And as they get older, victims can show signs of distress or trauma or present in ways that might look a lot like anxiety or depression. So like, you know, they may start to withdraw or lose interest in friends or sports or activities like that kind of thing. And some even respond by acting super perfect and compliant and some of the complete opposite, like they'll become really difficult or rebellious, even aggressive. So I'm going to be honest, I officially have a teenager now.

He's 13. And I'm kind of wondering like what makes any of those behaviors different from like the average teenage experience? That's the thing. When we were talking to Darkness to Light, I'm like, okay, so like kids that I doubt could be showing signs of being victimized kids that retreat inward could be showing signs of that. Also, like I'm pretty sure I did both of those things. And I was like kids who are completely compliant and perfect could also be victims. And that's the thing, like these behaviors aren't necessarily different from normal behaviors, but it's more like keeping an eye to notice a change, right? Like what did they go from and to?

And this is why it's so important for caregivers to keep the lines of conversation open between them and their kids to make sure that they know that no matter what, that they will always be supported, that they will always be believed. And I know I said that there aren't typically physical signs, but there are a few that you can watch for, like redness, rashes, swelling, and genital areas, also sudden urinary tract infections. So if you notice any of these things, checking with your child's doctor is a great place to start. Yeah. And I have to say, since I've spent a lot of my adult life in realms addressing abuse of minors kind of across the board as a foster parent, I am so thankful that I know that there are so many child advocacy resources out there. But that's why I'm saying this because not everybody does. It can literally just be as simple as Googling child safety advocacy and your city and find resources near you.

You know, we've been connected to Kidspeace, which is a semi-regional organization, as well as the National Youth Advocate Program that have so many resources for people looking to learn more and help minors in unsafe situations. But I mean, I guess my question is, outside of knowing what to do if you find yourself in a situation that you believe needs an intervention, what can people do right now? Like, how do they know if they should report anything, let alone something? Well, I think that's the thing is there's no, like, you must do this or there's no point where you know 100%. I mean, if you know 100%, like, I don't think people are questioning that. I think what people question is, like, when should I? And what I would say, and this is coming from me and not darkness to light, is the second you suspect something is when you should do something. If you think there's any reason, yes, don't hesitate.

Yes, because we have these gut feelings, these, like, six senses for a reason. The thing you need to know is that you don't need proof of sexual abuse to make a report to police. I mean, you will have to explain what's making you suspicious, so keep that in mind. But you don't need to, like, go to them saying, I caught someone in the act. You can go to them with what is making you feel uncomfortable. And if you've seen an adult violating a personal boundary with a child or suspect abuse because of those physical signs that I mentioned, you can report it by calling your local child protection agency or 911 and darkness to light. So again, the organization who provided this information for us is a great resource.

Their website is D2L.org. It's just the letter D, number two, letter L.org. And I want to hit on again from the kid's perspective. One of the things I mentioned in the story was that Jerry Lynn didn't feel like she could say anything about what happened to her until someone else caught them, until she had that backup of an adult because she didn't think anyone would believe her. And this is, again, so important, especially for those of you who listen to our interview with Elizabeth Smart. You'll remember her comment on this. If a child discloses abuse to you, the most important thing that you can do is believe them.

Start by believing them. So they're not afraid to tell you even when they're feeling uncomfortable because, I mean, these grooming things, most of this doesn't happen by a stranger abducting someone in the middle of the night to abuse them. It does happen, but most often it's people that they know. And so if they're comfortable enough to tell you when they're uncomfortable, then let's get used to preventing this stuff. There are a ton of great resources out there about what exactly you can do or what exactly you should say, and in particular, how to ask questions when a child discloses abuse to you. But you can also simply thank them for telling you and offer support and help.

And as difficult as it is, especially when it's your child or someone you love, it is important to stay calm because the one thing you don't want to do is to trigger any kind of shut down reaction from a child or any kind of like knee-jerk feeling for them that they might be getting someone else in trouble or that you're upset with them or that they did anything wrong. I mean, remember, so often their abuser is a person that they know and care about and might not want to hurt. And you're there as their support. They are reaching out as a trusted person. And the best way to honor that position in their life is to be that support person.

And, you know, I just said something just now, like the idea of prevention. And I think that that is so important to parents especially. How do I prevent this from happening in the first place? Oh, 1,000 percent. And, you know, we always talk about the lessons we can learn or actions we can take after these episodes. And I don't know about you. You're not a mom, but you're an auntie. I am in full mom mode right now.

Like, what can we do right now to prevent this from happening to one and the other children, but especially the kids in our lives? So there's a lot you can do. And it really starts at the very beginning by having open and honest conversations with kids about our bodies, about sex, about boundaries. One really straightforward and tangible thing that Darkness to Light recommends is to always use the proper names for private parts when talking about children, which I would have never thought of. But they said, you know, none of this like cutesy words that we sometimes want to use to feel less awkward. Kids need that vocabulary and having it can actually help keep them safer. And when you're having these conversations, making sure that kids know that no one can touch them without their permission,

including adults. That is so important. And it also is important to minimize the opportunities for abuse to happen. So Darkness to Light told us that more than 80% of sexual abuse happens in isolated one-on-one situations. So if you reduce or even eliminate those situations, period, you will dramatically reduce the risk. Well, and for me, understanding the process of grooming and what to look for is key. Absolutely. And for anyone who doesn't know, grooming refers to the process perpetrators use to gradually but very systematically.

And I want to say calculated to break down a child's boundaries or a family's boundaries before anything of physical sexual contact happens. Right. I mean, what that looks like on the surface is pretty much just like a close relationship between a child and adult. And often with parents or caregivers too, like people who do this are, you said it calculated, they can be incredibly manipulative. So like, they're not going to like be a jerk to you, the mom or the dad or the guardian of this child. They're going to be friends with you to get really close and make you as comfortable as possible in those situations when they're alone with your child. And frankly, they're really good at it. So there are actually some red flags that you can look for.

Someone paying special attention to a child or giving them special preference, sympathetic listeners. So basically adults who go out of their way to be fully engaged and there for them when a child is excited or upset. And again, don't get me wrong, there are kinds loving adults, but this is above and beyond. It's the stuff that makes you prickle a little bit and say like, listen, they're going to be fine. That doesn't feel good. That doesn't feel right. Yes, predators will offer to help the family, especially with things that give them one-on-one access to the child. So like driving them to and from practices or school or babysitting while the parents are out.

And be really aware of adults hugging and touching a child in a way that seems too familiar. Knowing what brewing is and how it looks and understanding that parents are often targets to is important, you guys. One of the things that the darkness to light team suggested that I really love in terms of a defense against grooming is having family rules that everyone knows. And not just the people in your family, but all the adults in your child's life have to follow. Not just mom and dad, not just grandma and grandpa, like every adult in your child's life. So some of them are no special gifts from adults outside the family and making sure that all the adults in your life know and respect those boundaries. So for us, my son is a typical 13-year-old boy. He doesn't really like enjoy family fun time at all, which is just like having dinner.

Yeah. But in the past, when we go into situations where there are family friends or family who would usually greet our entire family with hugs, he doesn't like that. He doesn't like to be hugged. He's never been a hugger. So when I would go into those situations, I would shoot a quick reminder text to everybody, hey, just so you know, Eli feels more comfortable being greeted with a high five, not a hugger. Please respect that. And so he goes into those situations and feels like he has some autonomy over his body because he does. And that's incredibly important for not only me and my husband to respect, but every member of our family and every adult that we come in contact with. Well, and I think it's great because I think that empowers him to say, like, this makes me feel uncomfortable.

You guys have his back and say, if you're uncomfortable, no one should be doing that to you. So I think what that does, it gives him the power where if someone were to force something on him, I think that opens the door perfectly to tell you guys, like, hey, we set these rules and someone isn't abiding by them. Someone broke the rules that we all follow. How do we address that? Yep. It's been really important for us and it's something that we're going to teach our daughter growing up as well. Like, she's still young enough that she doesn't really get it and just wants to hug everything, like even trees. But it's something that we want to make sure that we instill that, like, your body is your body and no one has a right to it except for you. Just because they're an adult, just because they're in a position of authority, absolutely not.

And the thing that I can't, like, drill in enough. The stuff that we drill in, I feel like in every crime junkie episode, usually about personal safety, but it applies here more than ever. Trust your gut. I cannot tell you how many stories we've told or heard or looked into about child sexual abuse where someone in the child's life said, oh, I got a funny feeling. Like, I didn't like it, but I just told myself I was being silly. This is your child's life. This is your child's safety and happiness. Trust your gut. This is your friend's kids. This is your niece and nephew.

This is every child that you care about in your life. Yeah, feel free to be weird and feel free to be rude. There is so much more out there on this subject. And I just want to say a big thank you to our partners at Darkness to Light for providing this information, for working with us today so we can make sure we're giving you, you know, the appropriate tools and everything. They've been wonderful. Now, we can't say for sure if knowing this information could have saved Peggy Riome. George Gettys never wavered from his story that he acted in self-defense, even in the face of all the physical proof otherwise. So whatever happened with the whole like Valentine's Day sighting of Peggy versus George's arrest date?

You know, I wonder that too. I'm surprised it wasn't mentioned specifically in the media coverage during George's arrest. But the friends who put her at the restaurant on the 14th, the only thing I can think is that they must have gotten their dates wrong. Because again, there's no question. She was found in his trunk, in his storage unit that he lied about for years and years and years. George Gettys was convicted of murder in 2005 and sentenced to 25 years to life in prison. The judge who presided over his murder trial said that he wished he could make him serve the first 14 years of his sentence in a steamer trunk, which I can get behind. Oh my goodness. But even in plain old federal prison where George will stay until at least 2030 and hopefully for as long as he lives, at least we know he can never hurt another child the way he hurt Jerry Lynn and he can never do to another woman what he did to Peggy. If you want more information on Darkness to Light, just go to d2l.org.

And you can also find a link to them along with all of our source material on our website crimejunkiepodcast.com. And be sure to follow us on Instagram at crimejunkiepodcast. We'll be back next week with a brand new episode. Crimejunkie is an audio chuck production. So what do you think Chuck? Do you approve?