Crime Junkie - SERIAL KILLER: Herb Baumeister from Indianapolis

Episode Date: September 12, 2024

This episode was originally released on 03-04-2018, and is one of sixteen episodes from the archives we'll be bringing you every Thursday now through end of year... for good reason! ;) We highly recommend you listen to each episode between now and end of 2024, and follow us on Instagram @crimejunkiepodcast so you're the first to know what's coming next!  

Hi, Crime Junkies. I'm your host, Ashley Flowers. And listen, summer is officially coming to an end, but I hear you guys, you guys have been so vocal about loving the Thursday throwback episodes we were doing. So I figured maybe we could keep it going a little bit longer. It just so happens we have 16 weeks left in 2024.

So for each Thursday through the rest of the year, I'm gonna be giving you a different episode of Crime Junkie from the archives. Or if you're a new listener, it's stuff buried in the back catalog of hundreds and hundreds of episodes. It's almost like my very own eras tour, if you will, honoring these past cases

and the evolution of Crime Junkie Nation. But there's also a secret message hidden among these 16 episodes. So see if you can find the Easter eggs among them. And to start, I'm starting right here in my hometown of Indianapolis with a case that we released just a couple of months after we launched Crime Junkie. So be kind, because this is Ashley and Britt circa 2018 when we were just baby crime junkies. This is the story of one of Indianapolis'

most infamous serial killers, Herb Baumeister. All right, crime junkies, I heard you and I'm finally covering the local Indianapolis serial killer Herb Baumeister. This has been requested over and over and over. So let's just do it. And a quick note, as I was researching this case, I've always known about this case at a very high level. But for whatever reason, I always thought that it took place in the seventies. It didn't? No, it took place in the... I mean, really when everything blew up was the late nineties. Really?

Yeah. I don't remember this, because that would like the late 90s. Really? Yeah. I don't remember this like, because that would make it contemporary to us to a certain extent. Yeah, which I don't know why, but it's Super Reesa and for some reason it makes it way more interesting for some reason to me. So I'm into it. Let's do it. Yeah. So I'm going to start the story in 1993.

There was a 32 year old man named Roger who goes out to an Indianapolis gay bar one night and never returns home. His mother is immediately concerned the next morning when he doesn't arrive home by 10 30 and she just has a feeling that something is wrong. She says the first thing she did was call his friend Rick and just a side note like I was watching this on a documentary and the mom's talking about the friend Rick and cut to Rick, his title is partner. So mom's straight in denial, but okay, cool. Aw.

This, I mean, the documentary is like in the nineties. So, you know, Indy's come a long way since then, at least I like to think. So his partner of 17 years, Rick said that he knew all of Roger's friends. He knew where he hung out and after he exhausted all of those leads and still couldn't find him, he basically started this crazy calling tree where everyone in the community was calling around asking if anyone had seen him, asking if they saw anything suspicious, asking if they saw him out at the club that night. But after 48 hours of not hearing anything from him

and not having a sighting of him, his mother goes to report him missing. But apparently in 1993, there was this crazy rule that there was a 30-day waiting period before police could do an investigation into a missing person case. 30 days? 30 days.

I've heard like the 24, 48-hour thing, but I've never heard of 30 days. I had heard like the 24, 48 hour thing, but I've never heard of 30 days. I had never heard this either. So I didn't know if this is maybe like an adult thing or if, I mean, this was early 90s, maybe people in the gay community weren't getting the kind of attention. I have no idea, but I was shocked. But basically they said they wanted to make sure they just didn't show back up. So Roger's mom and his friend slash partner Rick are like, forget this, like we're doing this ourselves. And they go and hire a PI. He's a retired officer named Virgil who is on the case, full Colombo style. He starts asking around, putting feelers out. And a few days into his

investigation, he gets a really worrisome call Another family wants to hire him and they too have a gay son who went missing after he was last known to have gone out to a gay bar in Indianapolis and The similarities don't end there this missing man's name is Alan and he's about the same height same weight as Roger They both have similar jobs Neither one had a cell phone or credit cards that they could track down. So the only thing Virgil could do

was hit the streets and talk to people. He made it flyers for both men and had a team that would go out when the clubs were crowded and talk to the usuals there. And really their legwork pays off because they start getting tips that the night Roger was out, he was seen getting into a car with a man in the front of the library downtown.

The only details they can get from these witnesses was that the car was blue and it had an Ohio license plate. They also went down a little bit of a rabbit hole at this point because they got a tip that there was this male prostitution ring being run out of a downtown business in Indianapolis and Roger might have been involved with it. So the investigator has his team spend a ton of time staking this place out, but absolutely nothing comes of it. So it was a little bit of time wasted. They eventually go back to staking out the clubs looking for this blue car with an Ohio license plate, since they felt that it was really the best lead that they had to go off of.

Weeks go by, no one spots this car, so police start to think that maybe this was a bogus tip as well. Then another tip comes in that makes Virgil really concerned. A publisher for a gay magazine calls Virgil and says, I just want you to be aware that the two guys you're looking for are not the only ones. We've been getting reports of a number of gay men going missing in Indianapolis. I don't know how this publisher knew this. My only thought is that perhaps families were having trouble getting law enforcement to take these cases seriously.

And went to the media. Yeah, and maybe they were trying to get articles published in magazines that they thought would be circulated in the communities that their sons were tied to. I have no idea, but that's what I can assume. And this is when Virgil gets his first inclination that he might be dealing with a serial killer. At this point, the 30-day mark has finally hit on Roger's case and police were going to look into his disappearance and take it seriously. What IMPD hadn't told Virgil, but Virgil has heard rumors of through that magazine publisher, was that there were in fact a number of gay men who had vanished into thin air in Indianapolis.

To be exact, there were a total of eight men over two years that police believe could have been connected. That's so many. As Roger's family, that would be infuriating. His case should have been taken so much more seriously. Yeah. I mean, you would think that they would have connected them and realized that Roger probably just didn't run off if there's this pattern. And police even had a suspect for these. Apparently, there was a man who they were able to link to three of the missing men, and all three had a relationship with him at some point. But this guy actually ended up being super

cooperative and he submitted to a voluntary search of his home and even let the police take cadaver dogs through his property and they couldn't find anything to link him to the missing men. So they eventually had to let that lead die. Police at this point have nothing to go on. They're basically waiting for one of these guys to either show back up or for another man to go missing and maybe leave some more clues. Well, thank God at this point, while they're just sitting and waiting, a man named Tony calls into police with a crazy story and it totally gives them the first credible lead that they've had in a long time. So here's the story that Tony tells them.

He's out at one of the bars that night where the missing men had frequented and he meets a white male in his 40s. They're getting along, they have a couple drinks and this guy who says his name is Brian Smart invites him back to his place for some more drinks and to go for a swim and Tony agrees. So they get in this guy's car drive and drive and drive and he realizes he's driving him way north out of downtown to what he calls a mansion. And when they get to the house, Brian offers Tony a cocktail, which he refuses. And Brian seems flustered by that. He excuses himself for a couple of minutes. And when he comes back, he's looser, he's chatty. So Tony thinks

that maybe he went to the bathroom and did drugs or something. Brian leads Tony to this indoor lap pool that he has for a dip. But the pool room was straight up the creepiest thing I could ever imagine. Okay, if a man takes you home and he takes you to his pool, what is the creepiest thing that could be in this pool room that would just give you the heebie-jeebies from head to toe? I know what's in there, so I can't say. Oh, you already know. Okay. So all theeebies from head to toe. I know what's in there so I can't say. Oh, you already know.

Okay. So all the listeners had a chance to guess. The creepiest thing is surrounding the entire pool are mannequins dressed up and posed. And Brian says he gets lonely there and he likes to stage these mannequins like he's having a party and these are his friends. Can you imagine walking and like, especially because like I imagine it like a hotel pool when it's closed, you know, so it's kind of dark, but there's lights in the pool illuminating the room. It's humid and it smells like chlorine and you just see this party, literally, of mannequins.

Ah! And you can see the water and the lights. It's like ripples and it's full body chills. So, Tony doesn't go out running at this point. And this is my crime junkie life rule number five. Oh my God. If someone is creeping you the eff out, it is okay to be rude. I don't know why people don't trust their senses. This guy is home alone in a mansion with mannequin friends. And that's weird. And it's okay to tell this guy that he's being weird. Like, side note, I'm going to go off on a tangent for just a second. I was reading a story just yesterday on Facebook

about how this girl at a local Meijer here in Indiana was kind of being followed around by this guy. I read that too. Yeah, and she's like in a store and he's following her and he's asking her all the questions that we know people ask when they're like going to take someone, like, do you have family? Would someone be waiting for you?

And she says that she's checking out and he's following her and he only buys like a gum or something yeah just buys a stick of gum and she's like trying to act like her car doesn't work and then she's walking out to her car and she the guy's still following her she's getting freaked out so she like goes she sees a guy getting out of his car and she's like oh ted, Ted, I haven't seen you in so long. And she writes this message on her phone, like, this guy's following me. Pretend I know you. And this guy plays along. But I'm like, why? She said something like, I think I've been trying to get ahold of you, but I think I have the wrong number.

Can you check and shows him in his phone? Which honestly, brilliant. No, but why? Why go through this whole charade? If this guy is being a weirdo, just like acknowledge that he's being a weirdo and he's following you, go straight to security or tell this guy you know he's following you, you're not gonna fall for this sh**. I don't know why everyone is so afraid of being rude because honestly, worst case scenario, like this guy is totally normal and he's just gonna think you're a weirdo who's rude. But like, be a weirdo. Yeah, be a weirdo,'s rude. But like- You'll never see him again. Be a weirdo. Yeah, be a weirdo, be rude, stay alive.

Who cares what this guy thinks? I mean, if you really, I don't know. I don't know why people don't trust their senses. I don't know why this guy saw all these mannequins around the pool and like played it cool. I'm gonna take a deep breath because I'm really worked up right now. But that's my rule.

The mannequin thing is like one of the creepiest things. I can't get over it. Be weird, be rude, stay alive. So this guy is polite though. And as a result, he is about to almost straight up die. Tony is swimming and while he's swimming, Brian asks him if he's ever tried to be choked during sex. He tells them that it really heightens everything. It's unlike anything you've ever experienced. And he asks him if he wants to try it. So wait, a man who has mannequin friends wants to choke you. That's totally normal. I get it. Okay.

Yeah, well, Tony thinks it's totally normal, too. He'll try anything once, I guess, because he agrees. He lets Brian wrap a pool hose around his neck and Brian begins to pull. And Tony says that there was this moment when he realizes Brian's pulling tighter and tighter. And in his mind, he says, oh crap, this guy isn't gonna stop. He is going to kill me. So instead of fighting, what Tony does

is he pretends to pass out and Brian lets up. But when Tony opens his eyes, he says that Brian looks totally shocked and he tried to play it off like, oh, yep, that's exactly how it was supposed to go. And Tony eventually gets out of the home alive and well, but he was sure that whatever was happening to the men in Indianapolis, this guy had something to do with it. But police are fearful that Brian isn't done with Tony because Brian actually keeps reaching out to Tony afterwards. He calls him. He even shows up at his house.

So they're afraid that he's like thinking that Tony is a loose end. But for as much as Tony learned about Brian Smart, he really knew nothing. Police knew that this guy was using a fake name because they couldn't find anything on him. And while Tony remembers that they drove north and he saw a sign with the word farms on it, he didn't remember anything else. He said that the house had a like really long curvy driveway, but he couldn't remember specific directions. He couldn't remember what road they were on. So police convinced Tony to act as bait for them.

Since Brian is reaching out to him and obviously wants to get back together with him, whether it's to kill him or be with him or whatever, they say, you know, we're going to have you meet up with him and then go to his house so we can follow you. They set up a meeting time but Brian either got really lucky or he knew the police were on to him because he didn't show up. So police are extra concerned that this guy might be their man so they take what they have to the drawing board. Man named Brian, long curvy driveway somewhere north of Indianapolis and a sign out front of the mansion that says Farms on it. Also, Tony reconfirms the tip that police had gotten earlier that the

car he was in did have Ohio license plates. Police really hone in on the Ohio police and they actually reach out to detectives there and wouldn't you know it they have something to add. Yes. Police in Ohio tell them that what they're experiencing has been going on in Ohio since the mid 80s. In 85, 86, 89, and 90, they were finding bodies of strangled men off of I-70, which runs east to west from Indiana to Ohio. They had traced all of these men to the gay community in Indianapolis and found out that all of them were last seen there. The police are confident that this is the same guy, but why change MOs? Why start dumping bodies in a state away and then just stop?

And was he dumping them somewhere else? Or why aren't they showing up? Is he keeping them alive? Everyone close to the investigation believed that the guy's confidence was growing. And this was concerning because he's getting more comfortable. The murders were getting closer and closer together. He's clearly getting better at what he's doing because police can't even find the bodies now and he is showing no signs of slowing down. After they talk to police in Ohio, they decide to have a meeting with the police from the Northern District in Indiana.

They explain what little info they have and ask everyone, do you know of a property that has this winding driveway that leads to a big house with an indoor pool and would be called something farms? And sure enough, police in Hamilton County recognize this as a home off of 156th Street. Not a couple of homes, like one home. Yeah. Yep. It's 156th Street is in a suburb off of Indianapolis called Westfield. They send investigators to do a drive-by, basically check this place out

and they come across this estate called Fox Hollow Farms and it matches Tony's description to a tee. They find out that the home doesn't belong to anyone named Brian, it's the home of Herb and Julie Baumeister and their three children. Indie police are ready to turn this place upside down and look for anything that will connect this house to their missing men but the home isn't located in their jurisdiction and when they go to the Hamilton County judge the judge won't sign off on any search warrant based on one quote unreliable witness and they say Herb is an upstanding businessman in

their community and they won't inf is an upstanding businessman in their community and they won't infringe on his rights based on a rumor. So no help from them. About the same time, there's a man in one of these gay clubs that sees a suspect exactly like the police have described getting into a car with Ohio license plate and he actually takes down the license plate number. with Ohio license plate and he actually takes down the license plate number. And when he gives that to police, sure enough, the car is registered to Herb. They even show a picture of Herb to the guy who he almost killed. And Tony says, yeah, it's definitely a close match to the guy I went home with that night. And they take both of this to Hamilton County and Hamilton County still won't approve a

search warrant. At this point, all they can do is learn about Herb and keep an eye on him. And they really dig into his backstory, find out who he is now, who he was, and this is what they learn about him. He came from a pretty well-to-do family in Indianapolis. His dad was an anesthesiologist and Herb was one of four kids. Early on in his life, he displayed some disturbing and unusual signs. For example, the Department of Psychology at Radford University studied Herb's life and found that in

adolescence, he used to ponder what it was like to taste human urine. And he would pull unusual pranks, like he found this dead bird once and he would place it on a teacher's desk just to like see her reaction. And according to this research his father knew that something wasn't right with him and he would take him to get these like secret tests done. And very few results remain from what they found but it appears that he was diagnosed with schizophrenia and the possibility of multiple personalities. But there wasn't any more documentation outside of this.

So his dad more than likely knew that there was something wrong with him and didn't attempt to get him help? From everything we can see, yes. Like he took him to get these tests, but there was like no follow-up done. He didn't have him like get treated. He wasn't in therapy. So unless he did and it wasn't documented, then likely no, and really likely he wasn't, didn't get help because he went on

to do these horrible things. Right, right. So he grew up as kind of a loner. And when he graduated, he went to IU, spent like one semester there, dropped out, tried working. He eventually went back to IU in the fall of 1967 and there he met a woman named Julia. Julia was quoted as saying he was nice, fun to be with, good looking. We both liked cars and we're both young Republicans.

And that's stating it lightly. They were both like mad conservatives and they actually stated this as one of the things that brought them together. And they got married in 1971 and ended up buying a house together in Indianapolis. They were both mad conservatives and they actually stated this as one of the things that brought them together. They got married in 1971 and ended up buying a house together in Indianapolis. Karly We know Dad saw some crazy tendencies or something, but Julie didn't? Kite From all of her interviews, no. She didn't see any signs of the schizophrenia or the multiple personality.

She said that they even did everything together too. It's not like they were apart. She said when they were doing yard work, he was mowing, she was trimming, they were together all the time. She didn't see anything. But I think there were little signs that, you know, looking back on, you want to point out that maybe in the time just seemed like weird herb. During the early years of their marriage, Julie taught English and he began clerking

at the State Bureau of Motor Vehicles. And he would end up working his way up to supervisor, so he had to be able to function pretty normally. But during his time there, people remember him doing some strange stuff. For example, one time he was upset with his boss, so he peed on his desk. And another time a coworker said that she caught her, he had actually been keeping a cake in his bottom desk drawer and not to eat it or to snack on, but he would

open it up every day and look at it because he wanted to watch it deteriorate. So are you familiar with the McDonald triad? No. Okay. So I was going to bring this up when you brought up his dad noticing things. So the McDonald Triad, I don't know a ton about the history of it, but it's basically three things that you can see in early childhood that may be indicators of a child having some personality or emotional difficulties in the future. Ooh, can I guess what they are?

Sure. Cruelty to animals? Mm-hmm. Setting fires. Yes. Now I'm forgetting the triad, but possibly. Okay, what's a triad? Because I don't know. So there's a bedwetting, cruelty to animals, and I think it is setting fires. But he had tendencies to want to drink people's urine, which reminds me of bedwetting. And the teacher had a dead bird that he found on her desk.

What's the likelihood that the bird was already dead when he found it? So that's two out of three. Plus he peed on a desk as an adult and wanted to watch something decay at his workplace. Those seem like pretty big indicators of the triad to me. Right. So he, again, he had these signs and his dad was seeing these signs and his co-workers even were like seeing some of this at work. They said at work he was actually a perfectionist given to like sudden unprovoked rages. And all of this stuff again in hindsight is creepy AF. But I can

imagine at the time Herb's just like the co-worker everyone has who you're like, oh, just Herb being crazy Herb. It's that one crazy guy I work with, like, avoid him, but we work together, he's benign, whatever. Herb's just looking at his cake in the drawer. Like, you know what I mean? I feel like I've worked with people who are like weird. The closest Julie ever got to recognizing

something was truly wrong was in the early 70s. Her became so depressed that his father actually had him committed for over a month to a psychiatric hospital. Julie didn't dispute the decision. She said that he was quote hurting and needing help. So again they're saying it's just depression. I don't know if it was something else and again it was his father that had him committed so I don't know if it was something else. And again, it was his father that had him committed. So I don't know if his father maybe saw some stuff that like he saw his red flags, but didn't share it with Julie,

but he gets out and it seems that this was his only hospitalization as an adult. Julie and Herb go on to have three kids and they open a chain of thrift stores in Indianapolis that end up doing pretty well to begin with. And he and his family buy this $1 million estate called Fox Hollow Farms. Something police note is that at the time they purchased this estate, bodies stopped showing up in Ohio.

So was he just dumping bodies in Ohio and now he has a place for them or something? What they're thinking is that before they had this small house, they didn't have a ton of land. So if he were to kill somebody, he can't dump them in the front yard. You don't want to bury them on public property. It's likely they'll be found. So they think he was taking them to Ohio. Now he doesn't even have to leave his own home. He can bury them on property that no one else can step foot on without permission. them on property that no one else can step foot on without permission.

So at this point, police know his house is a dead ringer for Tony's story. They know Herb is still a little bit off, but they don't have anything solid. And they know to get evidence, they need to get on to this property. They make an attempt to confront Herb face to face at one of his thrift stores, and he denies any involvement. He refuses to let them search his home, but police say that while they're talking to him, they can just see the vein in his neck like pulsing out of his body. He's getting worked up. Oh yeah, they know he's lying.

So without his cooperation, their investigation is at a standstill. So three months pass before they learn that Julie and Herb are getting a divorce and Herb is moved out. So the home is just occupied by Julie and they're like, bingo, Julie is our in. And they're hoping that if they tell Julie that Herb is the suspect, because at this point she still has no idea that she and Her her will be on bad terms and maybe she will Cooperate with them because of that so police go to Fox Hollow Farms Confront Julie at the door telling her that they were investigating her husband for quote

Homosexual homicide that seems pretty specific. Is that a real thing? Julie said the same thing she was like like, what is the homosexual homicide? And I don't know if this is again just them being like ignorant in the time. They would say they were searching for these guys in quotes, gay Indianapolis. Or if this is them attempting to like kind of like side eye wink wink, let her in on the fact that her husband was probably gay without saying it. Because again, at this point they couldn't prove that he had had sex with any of them. So I don't know. Julie says, I don't know what that is. And when they go on to explain to her these rash

of disappearances of gay men in Indianapolis, along with bodies found in Ohio, she's like, nope, getting a divorce, but I don't hate the man enough to help you say he's a murderer. Peace. Shut the door on your face. Plus Plus Julie has no clue that her husband might even be gay remember they fell in love because they're uber Conservative so I'm sure in her mind. She's like y'all got the wrong guy There's no way like she can't even like fathom that he would Be going to a gay club much less bringing back these men and then murdering them at their home, but when they leave Julie Obviously this stays with her. She can't stop thinking about this and she remembers something strange that happened several months earlier. Her son had come in from playing outside and he tells

her that he found a skull. And you know little boys you're like okay. So she goes out to check and sure enough there's actually a cluster of bones. And when Herb gets home, she tells him about it. And he's like, oh, yeah, that's just my dad's anatomy skeleton because my dad's a doctor and totally normal, never discussed it again. Herb cleaned up the bones and Julie just never saw it. They never spoke about it. Totally normal.

Yeah. Julie calls her attorney and she tells him about this visit from police and she tells him this crazy story about the bones but she's like, don't say anything to anyone, like this is just between you and me. WTF, Julie, come on. Oh, I know. I would be all about winning in a divorce and this seems like a major trump card to play, but while Julie is twiddling her thumbs and trying to convince herself that her husband isn't a serial killer,

police get the idea to do an infrared search of a property. They don't need a search warrant to fly over, and so they get a team together with these special equipment that can detect body heat. Wouldn't it be a little bit late for body heat to be detected if we're looking at actual piles of bones as opposed to like even decomposing bodies?

Yeah, and that's what they find out. If there are bodies anywhere on this property, they've been dead too long to show anything on these cameras. So it is another bust for law enforcement. While this is all going down, the divorce between Julie and Herb gets even more contemptuous, and she starts fearing for her children, and her lawyer says he even fears for Julie's life. And the final straw is when Herb took their son on a lake trip and refused to bring him

back home. So Julie's like, alright, I can't be in denial any longer when it comes to the safety of my kids and myself. So in June of 1996 she allows police to come on their property while Herb's away and she shows them where her son had found the original skeleton. But when police dig up the area there's nothing there. And they end up sitting Julie down and they try to take her through their theory and their investigation. And as they're walking her through this and talking about when all these men have gone missing,

Julie compares those dates to her calendar. And every time a man went missing in Indianapolis, she and the kids were out of town to this lake that they would always go to. So they would go for like a weekend or sometimes for a full week in the summer. And she said that Herb would always stay behind because he needed to tend to business.

And she never even thought twice about it. But now it was becoming clear to her that he was staying home for other reasons. I was going to ask how she had no idea that this was going on if it's happening in her house. But if she was out of town, how could she? There was this lake that they would go to like an hour, hour and a half away. And she would go with the kids all the time. like just we're going to pack up for the weekend, we're going to go to the lake, we're going to go for a week. And her being the family man and like

the guy in charge of he's got three thrift stores now, like he has to stay home, he tended the business, he can't be gone for a week. And with this link, police are even more sure that they have their guy. And they start digging up the rest of the property with Julie's permission. When they start digging around on the rest of the property bones start popping up like whack-a-mole. They're everywhere and the police collect 11 bodies in total. 11? 11. And in this documentary like there was this passing note that they were like, 11 bodies and no skulls were found. And then, excuse me, no skulls were found? What? You can't just be like, but there were no heads and keep going.

I know. We need to pause for a second and talk about the fact that there were no heads. I know, but at some point there had to have been at least one head, right? Because that's what his son found. So I don't know how legit this is. I've seen it a couple of times, but where are the heads? Because they did have to identify the men that they found, the ones that they were able to identify, there's still a handful that they haven't.

They identified them through DNA. So not dental records, WTF, where at oh my god, so police have 11 male bodies on this guy's property They finally go back to Hamilton County who would never give them a search warrant and they're like, okay We found this on our own. We did it our own way We got permission and we were proved right now. We need to arrest this guy and Hamilton County's like Now we need to arrest this guy and Hamilton County's like Yeah, like I know you found the bodies on his property, but you can't prove that he killed them. What right? So F this noise Indian Indianapolis police are getting nowhere Herb's not coming home so they're pretty sure he's gotten wind of the investigation is on the run and

They go to Ohio police and Ohio police decide that they're going to pick up the investigation since they have bodies in their own territory. Julie had already confirmed with them that he had business in Dayton, Ohio and all of his business trips coincided with bodies being found in Ohio and that is all Ohio needed. So they get a warrant for Herb's car and tow it to Ohio and process it. During this time that they're doing that, police here in Indianapolis hear that Herb is in Northern Michigan near the Canadian border and he's been asking his brother to wire him money,

but they can't pinpoint him. Ohio police are still processing the car and they realize that the trunk liner has been totally removed. And the only thing they can get is this itty-bitty spot of blood that's too tiny to even process. So even Ohio hits a dead end. And keep in mind with all of this, Hamilton County still isn't even interested in this

guy. They're not looking for him. Come on! I know. I don't know what more they need. But they were so afraid of throwing one of their, you know, air quote, upstanding citizens under the bus that I don't think I'll ever figure out what their deal was. Like I'm not sure why they were so opposed to going after him.

I don't know if his father had connections or he had connections. Who knows? But bodies on your property still won't go after him. Side note, I did find this crazy clip online where Herb had been interviewed by the local news about how he was driving in the car with his son and he saw a government vehicle that was painting the roadways like the stripes on the road. This vehicle hits a raccoon and like paints over him and just keeps driving and he acts like he is just totally appalled at their carelessness for the life of this raccoon. The firm bow-meister of Carmel saw it all.

I said to my son, they're gonna hit that raccoon with a spray gun, and sure enough, they just striped right over its face and neck, you know, didn't even move it, you know, no effort to, you know, get it out of the way. Hop, hop, hop, hop. So I happened to have a Polaroid with me, so I took a shot at the thing.

A raccoon which met its demise on the yellow line became one with the paint. The raccoon has since been removed. This is all that's left. This was just, you know, a painter should have had a chalk line drawn around his career by state officials. There was no excuse for that.

I mean, the poor thing deserves a better fate than that. So just what is the explanation for this? So, raccoonons a big deal. Meanwhile, this is like in the midst of his serial killer rampage where he's killing actual humans, humans and stowing them on his part and on his property. Yes. I'll post the full video on our website so you can see this guy, but I assume this is the guy that Hamilton County was seeing and was struggling to arrest.

Cause they're like, Oh, he feels bad for a raccoon. I don't know how he could kill a human. A little bit of a weird note too. So the first thing he did when they run over this raccoon is he gets his Polaroid camera and goes out and takes a picture. He does, like multiple pictures of it. So he plays it off like, oh, I wanted to show, and you guys are like oh I wanted to show and you guys are here And I wanted to show you what they did, but maybe just maybe like young herb was coming out

I'm gonna scrapbook this in like some weird murder scrapbook, right or frame it for its mannequin parties Eventually police don't end up even needing Hamilton County's help Hamilton Hamilton never helps him, but they get a call that on July 4th, 1996, Herb had parked his car on the side of the road and shot himself in the forehead. He left behind a three-page suicide note, kind of just rambling gibberish talking about he was sorry for his failing business and how that contributed to his marital problems. Nothing in the know about these murders or this apparently secret life that he lived.

And in total, there were 21 men between Ohio and Indiana attributed to him. And who knows possibly more if he ever found another dumping ground. I mean, I don't know, where are these heads? Are there more bodies with these heads? Herb's family have no closure on whether or not their dad was a serial killer. Yeah, so that's to me like the craziest part.

I can't imagine being the daughter of Herb or the wife of Herb or the son of Herb because they literally get bombarded by these police. They think their dad's this totally normal dad. Police come, say your dad's a serial killer, they dig up all these bodies on the property of the house that you've been living in. And then your dad kills himself. Yeah, and then your dad kills him. You don't even get the chance to sit down with your dad face to face and ask him these

questions and yeah, I mean, he did it. Like the bodies are on his house, the cases are closed, police know it's him. But this would like leave a huge open wound if I were his family that I could never close without him. Yeah, I can't imagine. And based on the time period, his kids are probably around our age, right? Like, yeah, a little bit older, I think. I can't imagine like being where I am today, like even remotely my age and living with this idea that where I am today, like even remotely my age and living with this idea that maybe he was, maybe he wasn't.

There's no like, complete closure or even being, yeah, like you said, even sitting down and being like, did this happen? Be honest with me, I'm your kid. Yeah, like how, why were you like this? Like, I didn't even know you were gay. To be able to confront that. Yeah. Yeah. And was it really like, was it all you? Were you this crazy psychopath? Or do you have these split personalities? And one of you is a wonderful family man. And one of you is this gay serial killer. Like I just so many questions. They actually went on to end up moving out of Fox Hello Farms. And it went on to be rented and then sold. And they say that it's haunted. And there's been a couple of paranormal shows that have gone out there and said there's been sightings of ghosts on the property. But it's like a pretty big, well-known

property within Indianapolis. I don't know who owns it now, but people definitely do drive-by still. It's got to be weird to live there knowing everything that went down. So, crime junkie question, would you pay less or more for the property knowing what happened there? Oh, um, I hate to say it, but I think more. Wait, wait, question. Does it come with or without the mannequin? Thank you. Crime Junkie is an AudioChuck production. So what do you think, Chuck? Do you approve?