Dinner’s on Me with Jesse Tyler Ferguson - Roy Choi

Episode Date: August 8, 2023

Culinary visionary and co-founder of Kogi BBQ taco truck, chef Roy Choi joins the show. Over duck carnitas, Roy talks about the rise of Kogi, hanging out on Hollywood Boulevard as a teen, and what it was like to watch his parents close the family restaurant. This episode of Dinner’s On Me was recorded at Damian in Downtown Los Angeles. Want next week’s episode now? Subscribe to Dinner’s on Me PLUS. As a subscriber, not only do you get access to new episodes one week early, but you’ll also be able to listen completely ad-free! Just click “Try Free” at the top of the Dinner’s on Me show page on Apple Podcasts to start your free trial today. A Sony Music Entertainment & A Kid Named Beckett production. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

This episode of Dinners on Me was recorded on May 24, 2023. Hi, it's Jesse. Today on the show, the creative culinary marvel that is Roy Choi. We'll talk about the rise of Kogi and what it was like when a series of his restaurants closed in close succession and wandering Hollywood Boulevard as a teenager. I was horrible at panhandling. I couldn't ask anyone for a dime to save my life. You know what I'm saying?

This is Dinners On Me, and I'm your host, Jesse Tyler Ferguson. Roy Choi and I met years ago through my friend Natasha, who is his bad ass right hand. He's become a chef that I follow closely and I really admire the intention around the food he creates. I think I can safely say if Roy Choi has opened a restaurant, I have eaten at it probably multiple times. Justin and I were there on day one of his restaurant local in Watts. We even attended a pop-up

concept he did with flaming hot cheetos. I've always been inspired by his story. He was never handed a free pass into the culinary world. He's hustled every step concept he did with flaming hot cheetos. I've always been inspired by his story. He was never handed a free pass into the culinary world. He's hustled every step of the way, something he learned not only from his parents, but also from the streets of downtown LA. Roy is a quintessential example of taking control of the steering wheel of life and creating the career you

dreamed of no matter where you came from or what your obstacles might be. I have been in the orbit of Chef Roy Choi for over a decade now, but this was the first time I had actually gotten to spend one on one time with him and I couldn't have been more excited. I asked Roy to join me at Domion in downtown LA. If you don't know the name, you might know Chef Enrique Overa's other restaurant, Puyol, in Mexico City. Domian's modern Mexican dishes are exquisite,

and I was absolutely blown away by the chef's attention to detail. Let's get to the conversation. So I have just finished listening to your audio book. Oh, I had the book with the tenors. I read it 10 years ago when it came to me. And the book ends kind of around the kogi period. Before any of that happened. Yes. Kogi was one of those situations that not all of us get

to experience in life. And then those of us that do experience it, hopefully we have the maturity and the depth to be humbled by it. And what I mean by that is having a fucking phenomenon happening in your life where your whole universe just cracks open and you go from just being anonymous to everything just happening overnight. And then it just keeps building and building and building and you change culture. I never expected it to happen to me. So once that does happen and you may know about it, like dealing with fame and things, things change, right? The rhythms and the intensity of life changes, things are coming access to things, your ability to get caught up in that greed or all of those sensations and all those things. So I was at that moment where everything was changing in my life,

and I knew that nothing would be the same. I might not remember everything as it is five years from now. And I don't know how I had the clarity to see all that at that moment. But I told my Tantin, the co-writer, I got to write this now. I got to honor everything that got me to this point because, you know, shit's about to change. I felt like my language was going to change. I don't know if I would still have the same connection to the streets or the memories as I would. And I felt like this was the last moment

I could bring that to life. Oh, interesting. Meaning that you feel like success and where you've gotten was going to change the way you're moving forward. Yeah, maybe not change me philosophically, but it would change. Because at that moment in life, I was still living in apartment, living and breathing, Kogi. I had lost everything just two years prior. We were in no way rich or successful at that time. And I hadn't broke through yet really. And I was still like on the beat.

Yeah. Hi, how are you? Hi. Welcome to Damianne. Oh, yes. And this is your first time to Damian? Yes. Fantastic.

So we've all been so excited to try this. And we are excited for you to try it as well. We are a Mexican restaurant here in the heart of the arts district. Today, you'll be enjoying our ceviche. That comes with a lovely Serrano-Cured Compachi and some green olive koschew or corn tamal, which is new

our menu and into the season is a corn cream with a strea of cettra caviar and to end it all off with our lovely duck kerne de tacos. Those are gonna be served with a little bit of chiso salsa verde on the side and you can't miss dessert so our popular Habescocus meringue with a raspberry curd in the center. So simple. You'll hear that. You'll hear that.

Yeah. Yeah. Which agro frazzare? I'll have the palo santo. And I want to try the papaya one as well. I just got to tell you, you have a avocado agro frazzare. Oh, the avocado. Can you describe that?

I'm not going to order it, but like I want to leave it. Absolutely. The avocado is not super creamy, like most avocado smoothies. Let's say you order it, but like all of you. Absolutely, the avocado is not like super creamy, like most avocado smoothies, let's say you'll find, but it's super simple, just a little bit of lemon. Very refined. We honestly just like, we've been blended in this train so that you get just the press juice.

It's so nice and silky, smooth, easy drink. Great on a summer day, truthfully. You know what, maybe I'll do that. Try it. I know, we'll get you on this reaction. Yeah, out there. I'll put a little psozanto and a bapai. I mean, it's really like intriguing and avocado.

I really do. I'll have a fresh pizza. Very, and then just listen to you talk about it. I'm like, you know what? I'm probably going to try it different one later, though, too. Absolutely. The bapai is also the favorite because it has the jasmine tea infusion in there. Okay.

And some galbiiko, which is fine. Oh yeah, yeah. Kapiko. Thank you so much. You know what kapiko is? No. It's a Japanese dehydrated milk soda. It doesn't sound delicious, I know, but it's so fucking powdered. Yeah, so I think what they do is they probably take like the powdered milk or the powdered yogurt milk and then they emulsify and infuse it with like you know sweetener and right carbonated water but it's so delicious it's perfect with like udon or tempura but yeah you'll probably taste a little bit in the potya when you order for sure for sure just to back up a little bit because we were talking to Kogi so much. And Kogi is, it's a phenomenon. I would call it here in Los Angeles.

It's really what put you on the map here in LA. You certainly had been successful cooking in other places, but this was kind of the birth of the success of the food truck. I mean, food truck definitely existed, but it sort of ushered in this new era of elevated food that you can eat on the streets. And I mean, to explain and technology too.

Yes. First of all, it's food. First of all, it's street tacos that represent Los Angeles, that taste like Los Angeles, that taste like are part of Los Angeles, which is specifically this area, oil heights, of Los Angeles, which is specifically this area, oil heights, East Los Angeles, career town, downtown, South Central. You know, it's the core of LA.

It tastes like how our city feels and looks. If you were to transfer them to a taste, that's kind of what it tastes like, smokey, loud, really pungent and vibrant. But the thing about Kogi was that it's, we were just a perfect storm. We were like accidentally in the right place at the right time.

Right. Everyone on my team, we had all lost our jobs. So we're all like jobless and like running out of money and scared and trying to figure things out. And then, you know, we had this idea that landed on our lap of what if we put Korean barbecue in a taco? We go in front of the club, sell it late night, it's going to change our lives. Our plan was like we show up to the nightclub at 2 a.m. I mean, you put anything outside of the bar. I remember

in an act bar and there's a lady who had always sold tamales. And then when you would hear her arrive and like that bar would empty out and all of a sudden everyone's on the corner buying these tamales. Oh. I mean, you go back inside. Well, we thought we didn't know where to go, really. The first, we just knew we had this taco that tasted crazy. And we didn't know where to go. But at that moment was when Pinkberry was hit in. Oh, the Pinkberry.

Pinkberry. And so we were like, you know what, West Hollywood, that's where shit starts. That's where it's trend start. We're like, OK, we're a park writer from the Abbey on a Wednesday night. It's going to be poppin. We're going to sell out all this stuff. Oh my god, we got to pick that up. We're like, okay, we're going to park right in front of the Abbey on a Wednesday night. It's going to be popping. We're going to sell out all this stuff.

Oh my God, we got kicked out. We got kicked out in like two minutes. Yeah, it's a marker of time. 2008, the Abbey Robertson, Santa Monica. Tank Fairy and Kobe. 10 p.m. 11 p.m. at night. Yeah, pink fairy and Kobe. And then so then what happens,

we got kicked out within like two minutes. And so we just went, started driving down to Hollywood. And we ended up in front of the club. And we didn't have our game plan set in the beginning because the bouncers kicked us out right away. So between the time we drove from the Abbey to basically the arch light, we came up with the plan, feed the bouncers.

So that was our, that was our plan. So we adjusted on the fly. And as soon as we pulled up to the club, we started hand out burritos to the bouncers because the first thing is like, no, no, you can't be here, you can't be here. And then we started handing out burritos. They took a bite of real shit. You could be here. It's amazing. It could be right here. But the really the intersection to answer your question was that it was 2008, the mortgage crisis was in full bloom.

And everyone was losing their jobs, losing their homes out on the street. But at the same time, the iPhone had just come out and Twitter had just started. Right? So you have this thing where we were starting social media, but it wasn't a mobile social media. And no one really was using it.

You weren't using it to... Smart one. Yeah, you weren't using it to find things. You were using it to just connect with friends and stuff. So then Twitter popped off and no one knew what to do with it because we didn't have the language in our minds as humans yet socially of like, oh, let me just post everything I do, you know?

And so people were trying to add like celebrity value to Twitter, but it still didn't register of like Why would I need to use it? So the only things happening at that time were Larry King and Ashton Kutcher at a million followers But people had no fucking idea like what that even meant. So anyways, all of that coming together We started posting our locations on Twitter People started looking on their phones And then in this moment of depression and everyone not knowing how they're gonna pay their bills, there's this really funny truck that just shows up

like a cheaching chong truck. And it became this scavenger hunt that just brought joy to people's lives. And then at the end of that rainbow, because sometimes it would take people like two, three, four hours to find the truck, wait in the parking lot, wait in line, and then explore this new idea of

like communicating and giving a live play by play of what's going on on Twitter, right? So all of this is happening in the middle of the night, you know, like at 2 a.m. and then when they finally got the talk on their mouth after like four hours of going through all this, it all like was as good or better than promised Yeah, and so then that just literally within two three weeks Shit just lit on fire, you know, so this all November then by February the National Newsmead a cud hold of it And it was over after that. Oh the agafrescus here. Yes. Oh, it looks like she brought you the avocado here It's not what I was I was expecting expecting to be all thicker and it's delicious and light. I'm trying the papaya.

You could definitely taste the Copicote in there. So when you drink that one, the back note that you'll taste is the Copicote flavor, which is like a... Oh yeah. Right. It's like a... It kind of reminds me of something from my child and I can't quite put my finger on it. Maybe...

Like a cream sickle or something? Cream sickle. Yes, is that what it is? Maybe cream sickle, condensed milk or cream sickle? Yeah, yeah, yeah, that's delicious. And now for a quick break. But don't go away. When we come back, Roy talks about what it was like as a kid having to see his parents close the family restaurant

and how as a teenager, he'd attempted pan handling on Hollywood Boulevard. Okay, be right back. Fall is right around the corner and Hello Fresh is here to help you plan for the busy season ahead with tasty dishes delivered right to your door. Simply choose your recipes and pick your delivery date, then lay back and enjoy the last days of summer knowing that dinner is covered. With pre-portioned ingredients and easy step-by-step recipes delivered to your door,

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of life and there's always more to learn. So I decided to take a class on master class taught by Roy Choi. In master class sessions, you learn from the very best at, well, everything, from cooking with Gordon Ramsay or Roy Choi to comedy with Steve Martin to, I don't know, songwriting with John Legend. And for only $10 a month, I mean, come on, can you believe it? With your annual masterclass membership, you get access to thousands of online lessons and unlimited access to every instructor plus exclusive content.

Find practical takeaways that you can apply to your career and your personal life. Masterclass has you covered. Get unlimited access to every class, and right now, as the dinners on me listener, you can get 15% off when you go to masterclass.com slash dinners. That's masterclass.com slash dinners. That's masterclass.com slash dinners for 15% off in annual membership masterclass.com slash dinners. And we're back with more dinners on me. So I kind of want to talk about this interesting period

that you had in your life. So your parents had a restaurant, the Golden, what was it, the Silver Garden? Silver Garden, yes. And you know, your mom was very known for her cooking, specifically her kimchi, but then together they opened up this wonderful restaurant. So you were immersed in the food of your culture from a very early age. I mean, you were born in Korea. You moved to the States at two,

but then you were always kind of around that food. I just find it very fascinating that you ended up back doing the thing and embracing that culture. And that was the thing that puts you on the map. But going back to being a kid and you have this great story in the book that I just, I found so heartwarming of you know having the space and the back of your parents' restaurant in Anaheim. That was called the tree house.

It was like our study room. Yeah, it was like where you would do your homework and there was a bed back there if you wanted to sleep and you could just you know spend time while your parents were out front running this restaurant. Like, talk to me about that time. If there are any immigrant kids listening to this right now that grew up in restaurants or small neighborhood markets, y'all will understand.

Anyone listening that didn't grow up with that, but have eaten in those places, you guys will understand. You know that chubby little kid running around a restaurant, a fall restaurant or a Korean restaurant or a taco spot, you know, maybe even riding the big wheel through the dining room, you know, or whatever, the case may be, giving errands and being told what to do by their parents and they're just shrugging and sighing and saying,

nah, nah, nah, mom, you know, that's me. That was me, I was one of those kids growing up in the restaurant and it's just one of those things where I think that also built a lot of like how I look at life and how I go through life where there are no separations of time or business and family. Like everything is all blended in one. And that's not always the case for everyone.

I get that because like a lot of people have parents that go to an office, right? And then they come home and then, you know, you're not at work anymore. But for me, we were always at work. Even when we weren't at the restaurant, we were making kimchi at home to bring, we were breaking a lot of health code rules. So I'm like, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. We were making the kimchi and making the sauces and everything at home and then bringing them to the restaurant, because just my mom was just a maniac. She couldn't

stop cooking. Yeah. Like she would cook all day. She would get to the restaurant like eight or nine in the morning. All day, get home like midnight. Before you lay out. Tell us what we have here. Yeah. Yes, yes, yes. Now, so you are enjoying the palo santo with a little bit of basil seed. And of course, I give you both a little bit of a bar. Thank you for that.

Byas, you can feel the grit. Algaro fresca. We always greet with the botanas. So botanas are lovely homemade dostadas with a little bit of almond mole on the side pickles, both cauliflower and castorono olives and this of each of this of each of you enjoyed with the dostadas

it is a serrano cured compachi in an olive koshew with some celery and serrano thank you so beautiful so anyway she couldn't stop cooking to save her life so she would be cooking all day of Koshu with some celery and so on. Thank you. So, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, cereal on the pop tart for me was like this meal we're about to have. It was like 40 different things and I look back now and all of that stuff shaped me obviously. Of course. But back then when you're 14 or, you know, 15- I mean, did you go to a computer? I just wanted to tell people.

Yeah, you know, and especially when your friends are over like you just don't open that refrigerator, you know, like you're just like bro, you're just begging your friends don't go in looking for a coke. Because it's the one thing I see going to see it like fish heads. Oh yeah. Fish heads, fish guts, containers just bubbling, stains everywhere. But yeah, but that's the food I grew up on, that's the food I love. I was never embarrassed of it. The only time I ever got embarrassed was it was a rare occasion that I hook up with someone

and be able to bring them back to my place, right? So one time there was this girl, I was really fucking digging. And we were about to go on our first date and all this stuff. And I usually never brought anyone to the house. But I felt like this would close the deal. You know, like I was that close. And so I was like, I'm going to show you my house, and hang out, and watch movies, all that stuff.

Of course, on that day, my mom's making the stinkiest food you could ever make in our cuisine, like the stinkiest. Even when people that grow up around that food, when you walk in, you're like, oh, it's that day. Yeah. And so that was the day I brought over and we didn't end up hooking up. But that was the only time I was ever embarrassed to the food because I was just like, mom, you had to make this, she knew too.

She knew that we were coming and she just wouldn't change her schedule. Cause like for her food is on the scale. She's got to make this braise on this day or whatever. It's like hatched chilies in New Mexico. There's still a moment and you can't miss it. You have a window of time, you gotta do it then.

Yeah, absolutely. So that was the only time I was in bed, but I loved growing up with that food, you know, and it was a huge part of everything I did, but I don't know, when I started being a chef, I think I decided that I didn't want to be an Asian chef for two reasons. One was that I understood how much work

and culture went into food, especially like Chinese food and Vietnamese food, Korean food. These are recipes and methods that are passed down over a millennia, thousands of years, and it takes 20, 30, 40 years to perfect these things, how to manipulate a walk or cook peaking duck or whatever these things. I just knew that I wasn't trained in that stuff. And I didn't want to like front. I didn't want to like put together some makeshift thing before I even understood it.

So that was one it was out of respect. But the other was for us as minorities in this country, we're always constantly fighting racism, whether it's overt or subversive or people say it under their breath or say something to you in a very passive aggressive way. So every time I would be cooking or someone would stop me or I would walk out to the dining room when I was coming up as a cook or a chef, they would ask me, is this a Chinese restaurant? We didn't book for the Chinese restaurant.

And people say that shit. You obviously don't experience it because you're white, but for us, we get those arrows all the time. So there was just something about that that I held onto, like, you know what? I'm gonna show you some of the fuckers that this ain't a Chinese restaurant, you know? And so I just really decided to explore

everything except Asian cooking and try to perfect my gills in that arena and build my muscle memory there. Yeah, and so- Wonderful, excited about that. I mean, so much of the base of like what you do, I mean, to study classic French cuisine, that's sort of like cooking, from what I understand,

I didn't go to culinary school, but sort of like cooking 101, I mean, like that's where you begin there, back then it was like classical training. This is the only path you can go. You learn the foundation, boom, boom, boom. Yes, yeah. Now it's different, obviously, boom. Now it's different obviously,

because of social media and all the young cooks and having all these inspirations, but back then it was go to colonist school, learn French technique, stash in a French kitchen. Maybe in 20 years you can pop out and start something of your own, but you would never even,

and I'm talking not too long ago, I'm talking about the late 90s, early 2000s. That's only that long ago, where you would never even think of or imagine starting off as a young 25 year old cook and opening a place like this. Whereas now you could, right? You could be the hottest restaurant in the city, as long as your food is good, but back then,

there were still some. There were dudes to pay. Dudes to pay. Yeah, for sure, I totally get it. But before I move on from to your parents restaurant, I just want, I know that, you know, with the change of the neighborhood, this place that was such a popular institution

that the clientele started to go away, can you talk to me a little bit, just in the eyes of a kid, what was it like watching your parents empire crumble? It was sad. I don't know if you remember listening to it in the book, but there's a line in there where I was cleaning out

there were refrigerators and the things that my mom kept refilling them, because she was cooking so much at the height of silver garden we would, I would say, we were doing 400 covers a day, right, all day long. It's just busy, you know, busy for a restaurant. And so that requires a lot of prep, a lot of food, buckets and buckets of stuff. And then, but by the end, we're maybe doing 10 people, you know, like empty restaurant all day all night. But she was still cooking for 300, 400 people. Yeah.

You know, I was too young to really help my mom, but I was old enough to see what was going on and to have an emotion about it. It was sad because all I could do was quietly go into for draters and take out the rotting stuff. But again, she would just refill it. And it was one of those things where she was fighting to the end and then it was over the next day. It was really emotional. I don't remember at all. And we've moved so much as my family. I'm so used to this kind of

like abrupt move. Like I've moved where my dad never told us we were moving. Like literally never told us. And then I, you know, I wake up and pack your shit. We're going, you know, so like, so I was kind of used to it, but this restaurant was a weird one because it was such an integral part of our lives and for a very long period of time. There was no like slowdowns, everything. Because, you know, and everything you do when you make a transition, you start cleaning out your office, you start doing the Marie condo on everything, right? And then you start organizing, labeling, whatever you start doing the Marie condo on everything, right? And then you start organizing, labeling, whatever.

There was none of that. Like my mom was pumping food out the night before, and then all of a sudden the next day, the doors were locked. It was a pretty crazy transition. I'm sure. Absolutely. And as a kid, you're just looking for stability and security to have that ripped out. And then also, moving around like you said,

I can only imagine how hard that was for you. You know, I know you turned a lot in those times here. You found comrades on the street, you're chosen family, so to speak. And, you know, some of these people were, you know, you were in street gangs and you were in the low-ride, at writer culture, which, you know, I grew up in Albuquerque, New Mexico, so I'm very familiar with that as well.

I was not part of the low-rider culture, they did not have me. I believe it, I know that's a shock to you. But no, but I know that car culture is huge. Yeah, I hope huge, yes, massive. But I find this fast, so fascinating that you would kind of find these hiduses from your family and come to LA for like weeks at a time just to sort of

get away but not necessarily having anywhere to go. Kind of living on the streets, you know, bumming cigarettes, eating pizza out of trash bins, and then going back home to where you had food and you had It was what was familiar to me because I grew up here in LA, but my parents we made a huge move when I was 13 To Orange County And for those of you that know something California that's like, I don't know that's like moving from From Paris to Albuquerque that's like moving from Paris to Albuquerque. I'm not a tie-duh, you know what I mean?

Like it's a complete change of pace, culture, everything. And I made a lot of great friends in Orange County and it shaped a lot of who I was during my high school years. But I still yearned for L.A. And when I was having difficult times during high school, I just needed to get out at Orange County and I just would come here and I would just roam. I'd go to the movies during the day,

catch your mat and egg, get high as fuck, just walk around and just again eating bummy cigarettes, eating food from the trash. You ever see that movie 13? Yeah, remember that movie? Remember all those kids hanging out in Hollywood Boulevard? Yeah, that's kind of like what I was me, man.

Just like hanging out. I was horrible at panhandling. So that's why I ended up eating food out of the trash. Cause I couldn't ask anyone for a dime to save my life. You know, so. And now for a quick break, but don't go away. When we come back, Roy talks about living in Times Square in the 90s and how seeing Emerald LaGosia on his TV

changed the whole trajectory of his life. Okay, be right back. Globally, humans are facing massive problems that are widely ignored by governments and the media, like personal space invaders. I had it with these couples that sit on the same side of the booth. Yakmouth, stupid stick figure bumper stickers, all men milk. You cannot milk an almond. Hi, I'm Jennifer, and I'm Angie. We call her pumps, and we're the hosts of I've had it.

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Yeah. I had no money, man. I had like 300 bucks and I wanted to just stay as long as I could. So I just found the YMCA and Times Square at that time, which was $7 a night. $7 a night. So just imagine what you get for $7. Yeah, truly.

Well, and back in 1994, we get a little bit more than now. But like that's all you said with 90 front 94, was that was 94. Yeah, that's also the year I moved to New York. I remember that New York. I do remember the New York at that time, and I remember Times Square at that time, but

I also had this parallel moment when I was reading that and doing my own math. That's literally when I came to New York to go to musical theater school, I might have walked by you. You want to walk by me? Yes, I was there, and it was crazy. It was pretty julienne New York. Peep shows and triple X porn bars everywhere and Times Square dirty as fuck everything crack everywhere. Yeah. And it was very

dystopian New York at that time, you know, like different than like the 70s and what you see from the Bronx during those times. This was different. This was more like everything just felt wild and like uncontrollable at that time. And I was just staying there and yeah, it was just really vulnerable. And you know, I got kind of like, what's the word taken from my money on this long, long con that this guy got. I mean, I, I don't know who that was, but somehow in the universe of this ends up in your ears and you're still alive like a plot. Job or time.

That con was long. He, he, he invested in me for like a day and a half. You know, he caught me outside smoking a cigarette in front of YMCA. How are you at this time? I was 24. Okay. And he just somehow figured me out, set up this thing that he was an agjunct visiting professor at Columbia and he was doing this lecture

and he wanted me to attend. Anyways, it was this long scene smoking cigarettes next to me all night, you know, and the next morning, even coming back and bringing me a cup of coffee, you know, it was a really long con. He's like, listen, I can go get the tickets now. So I gave him a couple hundred bucks for the tickets and he never came back.

But I just have to applaud him for that con. It was really good. And then I'm committed. And then right after that, there was someone that was kind of I guess listening and he saw the whole thing go down. And then he came up to me right after. Like, almost like if he had stepped in from stage right, he came in right after.

And then he just offered me a hit of crack. And then we went up to the room, I smoked it. Then he, over the next week, I just went down this crack hole. He took me up and down ninth Avenue to score. I mean, just taught me all the ropes of like, it was a really wild moment. It was like a vignette, Jesse.

Like, it was just like, for a week, 24 hours a day, just smoking crack, walking up and down ninth Avenue. And then this tour guide that was just teaching me all the little nuances and tricks of the trade of that part of town and what to do, how to walk, don't give up your shoulder, only walk this on this side a certain way, don't look too hard at that, how to score

the deal, who to go to, all these little things, man, it was crazy, you know. What ended that week for you? Was it just like, okay, now it's time for me to just go home and I'm leaving all this here? I saw myself in the mirror, you know, it was really small. I mean, the room had to be 200 square feet the most. You know, you could barely fit a twin size bed in the room.

And, you know, just being in that room with those dark curtains and dingy sheets and you know I don't know I was just in there stuck in that hole and only going out at night eating like greasy pizza you know smoking crack going back up just hanging out and then I don't know after a week I just kind of like caught my reflection in the mirror and it wasn't like a a thing of like I was disappointed myself or anything like that. Nothing like that, which is I saw myself and I saw my mom and my dad and my sister through the mirror in my face. And I just looked at myself and I'm like, you know, you're good.

People are waiting for you at home. It's time to move on. All that heartbrokenness had been mended and everything was just over. I needed to kind of go through that whole thing. It could have lasted seven years or seven days. But it was one of those things where it was just over. Yeah. I mean, so you have here a lovely duck carnitas, the duck are topped with some rashes, aside of she's so self-severed and she árbol, some zest, and of course all the tortillas are more.

What's this? And that is our tamal de lote, it's a corn tamal with a corned cream on top, and a setro caviar folded into it. Oh, wow, that's the caviar, that's the caviar. That is, so thank you. Beautiful. Yeah, really nice. Beautiful dish.

I want you to describe what it looks like. Oh, because your verbiage is going to be way better than the one I was like. There's green things. Well, everything is plated in these beautiful, like, hand-throwing bowls and plates. Similar to what maybe a lot of us in America remember with like a heath up in the North Bay. But these seem to be a little more refined. Heath has like a little bit of a heavy quality, which I love,

but artists in heavy quality are very refined. A lot of gray and dark charcoal tones, and the food within this neutral palic just pops, because you have reds, greens, pinks, purples, tans, and cream, and blacks. And it's just beautiful. So the duck comes out in this cast iron pan with like micro-salon trove and all these herbs

and radishes over the top, but it's like, I can't see what's in it at least, but it looks like almost like a chateau brioche in a way where it's like one long loaf. Yes, and it sort of just, and probably just falls apart. Shreds right now. And it just shreds, right?

So it shreds like a posa more, like a braised carnitas, which it is. I'm going to back to make a taco right now We have these handmade tortillas a can as well basket and then we have the basket of tostadas and Everything looks super super like delicate, but also really hardy at the same time. That's right Okay, I'm just gonna bring you along on all the podcast now Now a break for Roy to describe you along on all the podcast now. Now a break for Roy to describe Roy. I'll take whatever I can get. Wow, just tacos delicious. Oh, can't wait to try this.

Inique, I see you, man. Hmm. I see you. That's amazing. God, those flavors are so good. But coming out of this sort of super dark time, kind of probably your lowest, is when we mentioned it before, but that out-of-body experience of seeing Emerald on TV and it almost seems like a fantasy sequence of a television show when you describe it in your book that you feel like he was talking to you

and he comes out of the screen and he feels hand on your shoulder and it's that kind of revelation that you're like, okay, I think that food is something that I want to explore. And which, again, it brings me so much, I'm so fascinated by this because it was something that was so immersed in your upbringing to return to it that way.

In a way that's like, look, it's kind of like, Dorothy, the Wizard of Oz, it was in your backyard the entire time. I was on the couch around this time when the afternoon over in the Palms area right off 10 freeway and national right there. I was in an apartment building. I'm one of the last friends that was still putting up with my shit. And I was on this couch and yeah, the show was on. It was one of those where you're just like I was on this couch and yeah the show was on it was one of those where you're just like passed out on the couch on the TV still long and it was just like kind of like pulsating and then finally just kept

getting larger and larger until Emerald like just everything switched it was like it was like a TV show just he went from just talking to like looking at the camera you know and then felt it felt like he stepped out and like talked to me and all that. And just like the crack thing we talked about earlier, I can go down really dark holes, but I can pivot out on the dime. And I don't know why, maybe that's just who I am, maybe that's because of how much we moved

when I grew up and stuff. But the moment that happened to me, I was at a really bad place, yes. I was like negative bank account, old people, thousands of dollars. I was on the run pretty place, yes. I was like negative bank account. Oh, people, thousands of dollars. I was on the run pretty much lost all my friends and I was a step away from doing horrible shit. I'm not a horrible person,

so I would be the worst criminal in the world. I'll be like the three stooches robbing a bank. But I was one step away from that, because there was nothing else. But because that happened, I got up, I went to the bathroom, watched my face, and just looked in the mirror and said, you know, it was time, you know, I was cursing myself, it was time motherfucker. And then so then I went to the bookstore, just spent hours researching chefs and applying.

I went to a night school here on Robertson, across from Chaconis in fact. Yes, crazy But there was a little night school there for cooking and I would go there and just like start to immerse myself I started going out to restaurants and Staging here in LA and then I got Staging by the way is basically Internship. Yeah, yeah, and then then finally I moved to New York like a year later Before we get there, I I know that's when you went to culinary school, at the culinary institute of America.

That's what it stands for, C-A-A, right? C-A-A. First of all, what do you think would have happened had you not been on that friend's couch with Emoryl on? Do you think you would have found this path eventually or do you think that things would have been different for you? Probably would have tried doing some devious shit. I was at the point at the verge of like, you were at a desperation.

Yeah. So I would have started probably stealing, maybe a calm man. I don't know. I was at the point where I couldn't walk a normal line anymore. You know, like I couldn't just go and get a job at Barnes and Noble or something. I was just too far gone at that time. The only thing left are vices or underbelly shit. I was at the verge of that and just disappearing. It feels weird to say, but I could have been at the verge of prostitution, not that I'm desirable or anything. But in that world, you see a lot of

shit go down. You will do, like you will do anything. Right. Right. You know, you will do anything. You'll fuck anything, you'll blow anything, you'll do anything just to get by. You know, so now I'm just painting you exactly, you know, what it really was. I'm not glorifying or anything. It's just that's where I was.

And I was one step away from whatever that decision is going to be. Jail, death, blow jobs. Right. Right. I don't know what it is. It's one of those options or that. Those are your options. Wow. Pick a door.

Yeah, yeah. But now, my other part of the question is, I'm sure I know, and you've talked, because you talk so much about this moment and such a defining moment. I can only imagine you've been amongst Emerald, since what is your, how would you talk to him about this moment in your life?

I'm like sure he's aware of it. You took a while, but the moment was set up for us to meet. We did an episode on Top Chef Together. This was about... This is the first time you met him in person. First time I met him in person. My first time on Top Chef as a judge, it ended up being an episode shot in Alaska.

I remember this episode, yeah. And so the producers caught wind of my story. They read the book and they just thought it would be a great segment just to put Emerald and I, you know, cold open together, never meeting. And then give us the time and the space. I want to thank them for that because if it was one of those like three minute segments or something where like boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, and here,

you know, like find the tender moment, like, you know, where everything doesn't feel like. We have beats to hit. Yeah, beats to hit. We have beats to hit. Yeah, beats to hit. We have beats to hit. They gave us a whole day and they allowed us to cook together, right?

So, in long form cooking, like brazing and marinating and making bread and doing childhood favorites and things like that. So these are the type of recipes where you help each other and it takes long periods of time and you're talking about like six hours of cooking, type food, like a turkey, like almost like a Thanksgiving meal. And so over the six hours of cooking,

we were able to talk about these stories and really like I was able to tell my story, he was able to tell me his story and he cried. I mean, it makes me want to cry for him. He cried, yeah. To be working along someone who was so instrumental he was able to tell me his story and he cried. I mean, it makes me want to cry for him. He cried. Yeah. To be working along someone who was so instrumental

and making you realize what you wanted to do. And then doing the thing that you both love doing so well alongside each other is just the fact that the universe gave you that that moment is really impactful. And I think for him, I don't wanna speak for him, but I do think that part of it was, I'm sure going through the process of making TV at that time, he was a pioneer in a trailblazer for us chefs,

like no one was doing cooking shows like that. You know, no one was becoming a celebrity like that as chefs and I'm sure he was caught up in the whole rat race of it all. You know, now that I've been exposed to this world, I know how much pressure there is and how, I don't know if you ever thought that putting out all those shows would actually like save someone's life,

you know, and I think when he heard that it actually saved my life, I think it just hit him like a ton of bricks, you know, and he puts everything into perspective. Yeah, and it's really beautiful. It's really amazing. We're probably almost wrapping up. But like I want to also ask, there was a succession of your other restaurants leaving to my devastation

I love these places. Yeah, sunny spot clothes a frame closed You were done with your contract with the line hotel to commissary and pot were no longer something that you know I could go to Chego is you know gone. It's basically my the bone yard That's all my old red dress. Yeah, it's my cemetery I could go to Chego is gone. It's basically the bone yard. That's all my old restaurants, yeah, it's my cemetery. But that was a tough stretch, to be honest. So that all happened within like a two year process between all of those restaurants.

Local Chego, pot, commissary, the line, A-Frame and sunny spot, all closing. But they all had great runs. A-Frame had like a 10 year run. Sunny spot was a few year run, but that all had great runs. You know, a great run. A great run. A great run. A great run. A great run. A great run.

A great run. A great run. A great run. A great run. A great run. A great run. A great run. A great run.

A great run. A great run. A great run. A great run. A great run. A great run. A great run. A great run. A great run. A great run. A great run. A great run. was just really heavy that they all happened at the same time. Heavy for you and for me.

And your fans, you love you. Thank you. You know, I'm not going to say it wasn't emotional. It really was. But now that I look back on them, and as you've been mentioning them throughout the pod, again, like albums, they were just moments in time for me, and they all lived really good lives.

But even when you talk about modern-found, like you're lucky if a show has three years, right? You had 11 years. When you're in it, you never think about this thing not succeeding. You're never thinking about, oh, like, you know, this is the last year, you know, until you hear it. You're just in the moment. You're just doing your best. That's how it was for these restaurants. But then there was a point where things start happening, whether the lease was up, right, or the contract had to be renewed, or whatever the case would be.

And then those opened up the next stage of ideas or discussion of like, then it made me, forced me to look at it. And so I'm like, so the A-frame one was the, the lease was up, it was a 10 year lease, right? So then we had to face the reality, we're gonna sign another 10-year lease. And then so that made me take a step back

and look at it, I did my metaphorical, I, I, I, I, OASCA, like look at everything, right? You know, and I just went through it as deep a place I could and like just try to figure out, is there, is there anything to salvage here? Can we? And I just realized it was time. You know, there's no way that I could force it.

And that was the kind of approach towards all of them. It was just the strange part of it all. It's not that restaurant's closed. It was just that I had five clothes in two years. Yeah. And- Is it ever for you, like something like, well, I don't know what more I have to say about that.

Like, I've said it. I've said it beautifully. It's been enjoyed. it's been appreciated. It's had a great run, you know, I mean. Even cats is over. Even cats is over. Even cats in. Even Phantom of the Opera has closed.

Even Phantom of the Opera has closed. The Phantom of the Opera. So can I close a frame? I love that you brought it back to theater in that way. That makes me very happy. Yeah, you know, so it's like, you never imagine what that end is. And it's never easy, but it's even harder to keep something open that doesn't want to stay open, you know?

Yeah. And so those just all had reached the end of their lifespan. And I had moved on. I wasn't creatively as tuned into these places as I was, you know, during the beginning of the heyday, and now I was just in salvage mode. I was like, okay, if we can keep this open, we got to like do oversized pancakes and all you can drink brunch and, you know, all these things.

It starts to become disingenuous. Disingenuous, yeah. So those all happen. But what's weird is, like, if I could make any comment on failure, is that they don't feel like failures to me, you know, like they had their run, they closed, they were emotional, but what that does is it opens up space within you spiritually to go for the next thing. Because if I had all those things with me,

maybe I couldn't have opened best friend or maybe I couldn't have started writing another book or doing the Chef show, things like that. I think there's so many times disappointment is confused with, or, you know, disappointment and grief about something dying or going away can often be confused with failure. And you're so, you're so right. And you're obsessed about restaurants is, I mean, you bring up where a hard business,

it's one of the hardest businesses, because like, we can never break through all the way, right? And even if you're the most successful restaurant, you could be closed. Like this restaurant right here, I'm not wishing that on anyone. But they could be packed, packed, packed, packed, packed, packed, packed, everyone sees it like, oh my God, you know, can't get in for months and they're packed, hottest restaurant in the city. They could be closed in a year, you know, you never know. It's like really, it's one of the only businesses where the more successful you get and the more successful you look, the more fragile you get, which is fucking insane.

But the other thing is, like, even the play that you did, like, of course, like, you wanted to go forever, but when you started, like, no one us civilians, I don't look at that play and say, oh my God, it's gonna be here for 100 years. I look at it like this is like a very special moment and these actors, whether they do it for eight months or eight weeks or whatever, this is like,

this is a run, right? Thanks for sharing all this. Yes, I was so nervous, like I've known you for so long, but we've never, we've never, I've never really had a one on one. You're like cousins, you know, like we always see each other. Yeah, yeah, yeah,one. You're like cousins. We always see each other. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And you've been around each other your whole life.

You see each other, but you've never really hung out. You don't really get into long conversations with. But you love each other. Yeah. Well, when well, I think. I think so. We did pretty good. I was never, also you're so smart and funny in video.

I was like, how do I keep up with? Oh, please. But this went really well. Thanks for doing this. I thought you were reaching for your wallet. you're so smart and funny and witty I was like how do I keep up with please but this went really well thanks for doing this I thought you were reaching for your wallet oh no dinners on me oh yeah there you go next time on dinners on me you've seen them in Star Trek and the boys in the band it's Zachary Quinto we'll get into our early days at Silver Lake Gay Bars, his special relationship with the original Spock, and getting to a place where he accepts living his life on his own terms.

And if you don't want to wait until next week to listen, you can download that episode right now by subscribing to Dinner's On Me Plus. As a subscriber, you not only get access to new episodes one week early, you'll also be able to listen to them completely ad-free. Just click Tri-Free at the top of the Dinner's On Me show page on Apple Podcasts to start your free trial today. Dinner's On Me is a production of Neon Hum Media, Sony Music Entertainment, and a kid name Beckett Productions.

It's hosted by Yours Truly. It's executive produced by me and Jonathan Hirsch. Our showrunner is Joanna Clay. Chloe Chobal is our associate producer, Sam Bear, engineer this episode. Hans Dail Shee composed our theme music. Our head of production is Sammy Allison, special thanks to Alexis Martinez and Justin McKeeta.

I'm Jesse Tyler Ferguson. Join me next week. [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪