Dinner’s on Me with Jesse Tyler Ferguson - Sandra Bernhard

Episode Date: July 30, 2024

Actress, comedian and cultural icon Sandra Bernhard joins the show. Over a porgy fillet, Sandra tells me if she still thinks about a high-profile break-up, the ridiculous medical situation she dealt with before a Letterman appearance, and what it’s like to be a fashion icon of the 80s and 90s. This episode was recorded at Cookshop in Chelsea, NYC. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Female athletes have always needed grit and talent. But for decades, they've also needed a certificate. To prove that they were actually women, according to different definitions. And even now, they're still being checked and questioned. Their story is the newest podcast series from CBC and NPR's Embedded. It's called Tested. Listen now. What's up y'all?

It's your man, Mark Strong. Strezy. And your girl, Jem, the Jem of all gems. And we're hosting Olympic FOMO, your essential recap podcast of the 2024 Olympic Games in 20 minutes or less every day. We'll be going behind the scenes for all the wins, losses, and real talk with special guests from the Athletes Village and around the world.

You'll never have a fear of missing any Olympic action from Paris. Listen to Olympic FOMO wherever you get your podcasts. Hi, it's Jesse. wherever you get your podcasts. Hi, it's Jesse. Today on the show, the icon herself. You know her from Babes, which is out now, as well as Roseanne. Without You I'm Nothing, King of Comedy,

the iconic skewer of pop culture, comic and fashion muse. It's Sandra Bernhard. Everybody's swinging and having hot sex. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Going to Europe and hanging out on the Riviera. Fabulosity outweighed everything. Right, right, right. This is Dinners on Me, and I'm your host, Jesse Tyler Ferguson.

When I moved to New York City in 1994, there were few New Yorkers more celebrated than Sandra Bernhard. Now, she's not a native of the Big Apple, but that didn't matter. Everything about her celebrated what it was to be a disruptive, boundary-pushing, LGBTQ New York cultural icon. In her genre-defying one-woman shows, she conquered stages from the Bowery to Broadway. She famously walked the catwalk of a Chanel runway with a lit cigarette dangling from her lips.

Whether she was on the arm of Isaac Misrahi, Andre Leon Talley, or Madonna, she was the New York it girl of the 80s and 90s. Now, anyone who's a fan of Sandra's knows that she has obviously made huge impact on our culture as a comedian, an actress, an activist, and a fashion icon, but she has never slowed down and she continues to bring her razor sharp observations to audiences on her appearances on Watch What Happens Live and her SiriusXM show Sandyland on Radio Andy.

I am so happy that Sandra and her family haveM show, Sandy Land, on Radio Andy. I am so happy that Sandra and her family have become such dear friends of mine. Listen, the 17-year-old Jesse, who moved to New York City three decades ago, would be pinching himself. This is a goddamn thing. Porgy filet.

Oh. God loves you, porgy. Oh. Filet away with me. I brought Sandra to Cook Shop, a long-standing favorite in Chelsea in New York City. Of course, when I arrived, Sandra is early and casually sitting on the bench outside like a true New Yorker. It makes sense that Sandra feels so comfortable here. Not only is Sandra a regular, but her daughter Cicely,

her first job was manning the host stand here at Cookshop. Owned by restaurateur Vicki Friedman and her husband chef Mark Meyer, Cookshop was committed to farm-to-table values way before it was cool. The food is simple American staples like pork chops, roasted chicken, or a tuna sandwich, but delivered so thoughtfully and with such attention to the best ingredients. There are so many good restaurants in New York, but not all of them are as reliably good as Cook Shop. Okay, let's get to the conversation.

I think I'm gonna get the porgy filet. I love the porgy. I love the porgy. I love the porgy. What am I going to have? Oh, we're recording already, by the way. Oh, we should be. Oh, yeah, we are. These are where the gems come in, honey.

That's Paris in the menu. Maybe I'll get a little gem lettuces, too. Let's see. I think I'm going to do, I'm going to definitely do a green juice. I'm going to do the roasted chicken salad, I think. And you can't go wrong with that. Absolutely.

I need something with substance, because I'm stuck. I've just been doing one thing after the next, and haven't had time to eat properly. Well, I'm glad I could provide you with a nourishing meal. I know. Sandy, can we get a bottle of sparkling with ice? I'm parched. Thank you, thank you. Sandy's parched. So can we get a bottle of sparkling with ice? I'm parched.

Thank you, thank you. Sandy's parched. Yahoo! Hi baby. Hi. How are you honey? Oh look, it's already here. They knew.

I'll have some ice too when you have a minute. You know I love my ice. Thank you. He's one of my favorite people. What's your name? Christian. Christian, nice meeting you. He's a doll, a doll. What's your name? Christian. Christian, nice meeting you. He's a doll, a doll.

I'm gonna start with a gem salad and corgi. There's no shellfish on the corgi, sir. Okay, baby, thank you. And I am gonna have the roasted chicken salad, please. Could I also do the green juice? I'm so glad it's quiet today. This is like, we couldn't have asked for a better day. The only time I've ever come here is on Sunday brunch

and it's a mad house. Oh my God. And we never go anywhere for brunch. You don't? No. I hate brunch. I like to take it and bring it home, or make it home, but to go to brunch.

I loved brunch in my 20s. When I first moved to LA, we'd go to the Rose Cafe out in Venice. Mm. And that was the height of, you know, chic and fabulousness. When Isaac Mousrahi was on this podcast, we went to Pastis for Sunday brunch during Fashion Week.

Oh my god. Oh my god. It was a mass. Well, how could you get anything done? It was fantastic. It felt right. Was it how could you get anything done? I couldn't even. It was fantastic. It was, it felt right. Was it? It felt right, yeah.

Okay, alright. So you turned, you had a birthday last week. Yeah. Happy birthday. Thank you. I know you like your birthday, don't you? You like celebrate your birthday. I do like my birthday and I happened to have done

Sandyland fell on my birthday. Sandyland's your ex, serious ex-ex-ex-ex-ex-ex-ex-ex-ex-ex-ex-ex-ex-ex-ex-ex-ex-ex-ex-ex-ex-ex-ex-ex-ex-ex-ex-ex-ex-ex-ex-ex-ex-ex-ex-ex-ex-ex-ex-ex-ex-ex-ex-ex-ex-ex-ex-ex-ex-ex-ex-ex-ex-ex-ex-ex-ex-ex-ex-ex-ex-ex-ex-ex-ex-ex-ex-ex-ex-ex-ex-ex-ex-ex-ex-ex-ex-ex-ex-ex-ex-ex-ex-ex-ex-ex-ex-ex-ex-ex-ex-ex-ex-ex-ex-ex-ex-ex-ex-ex-ex-ex-ex-ex-ex-ex-ex-ex-ex-ex-ex-ex-ex-ex-ex-ex-ex-ex-ex-ex-ex-ex-ex-ex-ex-ex-ex-ex-ex-ex-ex-ex-ex-ex-ex-ex-ex-ex-ex-ex-ex-ex-ex-ex-ex-ex-ex-ex-ex-ex-ex-ex on my birthday. So. Sammy led your serious XM show, yeah. Yes, I only do it once a week now, on Thursdays. You only do it once a week now? Oh God, for years. Oh really? Yeah, I can't do that more than once a week. First is they don't pay enough money. I mean if they paid me like buckets of money like they do Howard Stern.

Right. Then of course I'd do it. They should, because you're fantastic. I've seen your show three times. They know, but they don't do that. They don't do it. And you know, I'm doing other things, you know. I want to do my acting and my performing.

And when you're tied down to that, you can't just turn your back on it. So once a week's perfect. For some reason, everybody called in. The nicest people. So sweet. I would've called in. It's okay.

No one asked me. But we're here, we're friends. I feel like I did call in one year for your birthday though. I definitely called in for something. Yeah, because they set it up. Yeah. So you just, is there a special space in your apartment that you do that or? We do it in the bedroom, formerly known as Cicely's room.

Well, this is the other crazy thing, because I know I saw you, I don't know, like a month ago or so, and I asked if Cicely was having a nice time in college, and you're like, honey, she's been out of college for so long, but this is the thing, I was just realizing, first of all, the pandemic fucked everyone up, I'm like, I've lost those years, but we first became, we all have, and I'm pissed. Yeah, I know, so yeah,

I can't afford to lose yours at this point. You can't. Honey, you're so young. But I first met you, or we first became friends when you were pregnant with Cicely. Right. Because I remember you being you know like nine months pregnant when I first kind of became friends with you through our mutual friend Leah DeLaria who I was doing on the town with in 1997 at the Delacorte Theater and you had Cicely in 1998. Correct. So I was doing this math I was like oh my gosh

Cicely's age is how long we've been friends. It's so cool. It is cool. I like it as a marker. I do too, but it feels like it hasn't been that long. I know. Everything has sped up so fast. How, wait a minute, it's Beckett and?

Beckett and Sullivan. Sullivan. Sullivan's 18 months now and Beckett's, aw, it'll be four next month. And Cicely's has a birthday next month. Yeah, July 4th. Beckett's July 7th, yeah, yeah. Amazing.

Yeah. And when's Sullivan's birthday? Sullivan's November 14th, November 14th. So a Scorpio and a Cancer. Yeah. And you're? Libra. You're a Libra.

And what is Justin? What's September 10th? He's a Virgo. Okay. So you're? Libra. You're a Libra. And what is Justin? What's September 10th? He's a Virgo. Okay. So you're sort of the odd man out. Does that bode well for me? I mean, it's all how you raise your kids. Yeah. Yeah. If they're left to their own devices, they'll probably be a nightmare. I don't think that's the case. No, no, we're doing good. I also, I mean, I think this I think there's this theme in your life that I find really fascinating because you have these remarkably long relationships, which is kind of a little bit rare in I think our field.

Mitch Kaplan, who's your musical director and co-creator. Yeah, it's almost 40 years. 40 years. We started working together in 85. Wow. I mean, and other people would still be in my life, maybe. John Boscovich who was my collaborator on without you nothing and

Giving till it hurts he is sadly died because he went off the rails So some of the people along the way and just literally, you know, Andre Lee Antalli who passed away two years ago that that was like Devastating right you guys were very close. He kind of introduced you to the fashion world, right? He did who passed away two years ago, that was like devastating for me. Right, you guys were very close. He kind of basically introduced you to the fashion world, right? He did. Yeah. And he got me in all the runway shows, and Isaac too, obviously. Right.

But yeah, you know, I do, I pride myself on staying friends with people. It's really important to me. Yeah, I mean, I know that, I mean, everybody talks about your friendship with Madonna, and like, that's, you just talk about it so much. I do remember something that you said, though, that really stuck out to me was that you're such a, you're such a loyal and sensitive person, like, maybe the separation of that friendship was like a little bit harder on you than it was on her,

but yet, if you saw each other tomorrow, it'd be fine. It would be fine, but I mean, I don't know what it would be, you know? I mean, and I hate getting nostalgic and caught up in that time because it was such like the perfect time. Right. You know, the late 80s when I was doing my one woman show here in New York and I was friends with her

and doing Letterman all the time. I mean, everything was just like, and it was so fresh. So, there are times when I'm like, and that really makes me sad, you know, that we couldn't maintain our friendship. I mean, I could've. Yeah, yeah. Such an electric time.

I mean, I just rewatched, I was rewatching some of your Letterman appearances. First of all, if you go into YouTube, there's literally like four hours worth of Letterman appearances with you. I think you were on his show like 30, almost 30 times. 30 times, exactly 30 times. That's insane.

29 at NBC and only once at CBS. Wow. Yeah. That's incredible. You know, I look at it now and go, where could you do that? You couldn't do that now. There's no place to do it. Do you remember, I did Letterman's show twice and I told the same story on both shows because he was fascinated

with it. What was the story? The story, my aunt and uncle were on the coast of Concordia, that Italian cruise ship that capsized. Oh my God. And they escaped. But he was fascinated with this story. I mean, my aunt had hilarious anecdotes

about stuff she lost, had to leave behind, and one of them was a bag that Sofia Vergara had given her. You know, just ridiculous things like that. But anyway, he was so fascinated with that story, he made me tell it twice. So I basically ended up going on to his show and just talking about my aunt the entire time. That is hysterical.

But I remember being so nervous about going on the first time and I mean maybe when you first went on his show he wasn't quite the late night television icon. No he wasn't at all. He wasn't at all. It was like it was 1983 you know coinciding with the release of King of Comedy and I knew him from a comedy store. Right. You know so it wasn't like he was a stranger. When did his show start? Well first he did a daytime show. Right.

You know that? I didn't know that. Yeah. The daytime show lasted for a year or two maybe. I think Mary Tyler Moore had something to do with that show. Oh really? Yeah, we'll have to look it up. And then I think he started his late night show, 81 or 82.

So you were really one of, I mean you were in at the beginning. Yeah, for sure. Do you remember what that, what your first appearance was like? Well, it was a funny day because my girlfriend at the time, who was basically an awful person, my ear was plugged up and she said, oh, let's pour hydrogen peroxide in your ear and it'll melt the wax. Well, it had the opposite effect. It clogged my ear up and I couldn't hear a fucking thing. It was like the night before when I woke up in the morning it was still clogged. So I went to the ear nose and throat

dispensary on Second Avenue and 14th Street and waited for hours and hours and hours to see a doctor. So then I finally saw somebody, they vacuumed the wax out. I had just enough time to run home. I mean I didn't have my hair and makeup done like I would now, you know? And I rushed to the show, and I wore wide-waile corduroys, cowboy boots, a white shirt with a blue cardigan and a ribbon black tie. It was totally bizarre, whatever I was wearing.

And I did my funny thing about growing up in Arizona. Wait, did you go on to do stand-up? Or did you go right to the couch? No, I went right to the couch, but I already started to incorporate some of my material I was doing at that time into our conversation. Right.

So, yeah, and I came through it. I was very nervous. Were you? But it was cute, it was endearing. And so you were going on to support Kings of Comedy. Yeah. Which was the film that you did with Mark Scorsese. And Robert De Niro.

Robert De Niro. Jerry Lewis. Yeah. You have that incredible scene where Jerry Lewis is duct taped to a chair. That's right. You have this unbelievable monologue. You're a stalker of his. You are seducing him.

You've put out this beautiful candlelit dinner, you are so unhinged, going one moment from being really sweet and kind of flirtatious to an absolute fucking maniac, knocking all of the candles and glassware off the table so that you can, you know, fuck on the table. It's really, it's an incredible, incredible scene. It really is. You know, Jerry Lewis is like a famous misogynist. Unbelievable.

Which he was during the entire filming. Was he awful to you? Was he? He was awful to me, yeah. He said I had fish lips. And then I went to Marty and I said, Martin's Chris Asia. He's making me feel bad, you know.

So I think he went and said something to Jerry. Then I say Jerry brought me a handwritten apology on a piece of yellow legal paper. And we were shooting it at the townhouse, so I just left it on the couch. And by the end of the day I couldn't find it. So it was my, you know, supposition that he came back in and took it away

because he wouldn't want anybody to know he had ever apologized. Wow, okay. I mean, that was just an example of how he was on the set. Was it somewhat gratifying to have him like taped to a chair that, you know? Yeah, of course it was.

As you were basically, you know, in control of the scene. What is this? Oh, thank you. These are good. Those are gorgeous. Have you had these? Fried asparagus. That's really something. That's a feat.

Oh my god, I needed this. Now for a quick break, but don't go away. When we come back, Sandra tells me about being a comic before social media and what it was like being a muse to top fashion designers in the 90s. Okay, be right back. I was recently on a plane traveling for the second time in a month and I thought to myself, wait a minute, wait a minute. When I'm running around working or going to New York to see friends and shows or visiting

family, I could have hosted my place on an Airbnb while I was away. We all have times when we're away from home, whether we're visiting family or traveling for work or maybe taking that well-earned vacation. While you're away, you could be earning some extra cash. You can host your entire home or if, let's say, your kid is away at college, which seems so far away since my boys are still just so young,

but for you empty nesters, you could just host a spare bedroom. Your home might be worth more than you think. Find out how much at airbnb.com slash host. Xtree Xtree, your favorite anime is getting a new season. Hi, I'm Nick Friedman. And I'm Lee-Alec Murray. And I'm Leah President.

Every week you can listen in while we break down the latest pop culture news and dish on what new releases we can't get enough of. We're covering the latest in film, video games, music, manga, and obviously, anime. Get the latest on the anime effect. So join us every Friday wherever you get your podcasts. And watch full video episodes on Crunchyroll or the Crunchyroll YouTube channel. And we're back with more Dinners on Me.

How did you get cast in Kings of Comedy? You were already working in clubs at that point, right? Yeah. And I'd done a bunch of other little things, movies and stuff. And it was 1981. And my agent at the time, Chris Albrecht, who became the head head of HBO and he used to be the bouncer at the improv here in New York. Oh no way. I love that. He kept saying oh yeah I'm getting you up for it I'm getting you up for it. It means I'm

everybody I know had auditioned. So I called, sit at my own audition, I went in, and did part of a little bit of the script, then they wanted me to improvise that scene, so I did. The seduction scene at the table. Yeah. Improvise that, yeah. Oh my God. And then I came back again, audition for Marty and Bobby.

Here's a funny story, as I was leaving the Chateau Marmont, somebody drove by me in a BW Beetle, stuck her head out. She goes, hi Sandy, it's me, Debbie. I was a waitress at the improv, it was Deborah Winger. Oh no way. And I was like, I didn't remember her. She was a waitress at the improv?

Yeah. And I think she had just auditioned for the movie. She must a waitress at the improv? Yeah. I think she had just auditioned for the movie. She must have. Right, right. I was like, god damn it, Deborah Winger's going to get this role. Oh my god. I was a little bit frosty to her.

Not frosty, just sort of distracted. Yeah, yeah, yeah. That always hit me. How crazy. Oh my god. I got it. It's incredible thinking about, you're such an icon to me. Debra Winger's an icon to me.

I love knowing and remembering that you all were hustling, just like I was the beginning of my career. We all hustled. What was it like in Hollywood? Because you were in LA at this point, in the mid-70s. I came to LA Cinco de Mayo, 1974. That's when I moved over. Right.

What was it like starting off as a, I mean, you were kind of known as a, I guess a female comedian. There was the era where there was male comedians and female comedians. I mean, so much so that didn't the comedy club have a back room that was just for female comics? Yes, that was the comedy store. It was the belly room. Right. Where I performed with my friend, Lotus Weinstock,

and a handful of other women. And it was great. You liked it. We could do our thing and nobody bothered us. What was different about that room as opposed to the main space? It was upstairs, it was a small little room, and nobody came up and said anything.

They, you can't do this, you can't do that, this is calm, how calm. So we were allowed to like really just sort of flourish and do our thing, and it was amazing. What were some of the things that they said you couldn't do? Well, I sang a lot, so they didn't let me sing. Okay, you still sing a lot. Yeah. Yeah, I mean, so your thing. You know, they didn't let me sing. Okay, you still sing a lot. Yeah.

Yeah, so you're a thing. You know, I didn't tell jokes. I told those vignettes and stories about fashion or my life or, you know, kooky little, like, I'd read from. It was more unstructured. Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah, more unstructured. But more personal. And so you just... There was... What's it called? The belly room, you said? In the belly room, you felt more open to that sort of unstructured, obviously female-driven... It wasn't like...

You know, I'm watching a man one minute and then another creepy man and then you. It was like... It was cool. I mean, it's crazy to think about, because now if you thought about a separate space where. Of course not now, yeah, but then. Yeah. It made sense.

Yeah, yeah. For sure. You talk a lot, and I was having this conversation with someone else about the different yardsticks, and how we can't measure where we are now by the same yardsticks. You talk a lot about that, and I guess this is sort of a perfect example. At that time, it felt that was something artsticks, like how we can't measure where we are now by the same artsticks. You talk a lot about that,

and I guess this is sort of a perfect example. Like at that time, it felt that was something that you were benefiting from. Now it would be considered something that was sexist or. Of course, it was a whole different time. Right, right. You know? There was, there was nothing to compare it to.

Right, yeah. Other than just saying, oh wow, this is cool. Yeah. You know? I have my own little space to do my thing. When you started doing that comedy specifically, did you know that, where did you see your life going? Because you were very interested in fashion, you're obviously a fantastic actress,

you're incredibly funny, you're intuitive, you're a great writer, you're a great singer. Did you have at a younger age a lane that you knew you wanted to be in? I knew I wanted to be an entertainer, because that's what I grew up watching. Like the Dick Van Dyke show and everybody danced and sang. And Carol Burnett and Carol Channing and Mary Tyler Moore. Everybody Sonny and Cher. Back then, not only were people actors, but they sang and they more. Everybody, Sonny and Cher. Back then, not only were people actors,

but they sang and they danced. They told stories and they performed in Vegas. And that's how I saw myself along with acting. I don't know if I ever saw that I was gonna become a good writer and do things that were so avant-garde because then everything kind of shifted in the 70s and the 80s. Now things got much groovier.

So it opened up a whole other avenue for me. Right. I just feel like you've always been such a trailblazer and there's very few people that I feel like I can put into a category with you. Were you aware of that sort of uniqueness? And also, it should be said as well, you're so openly queer the entire time. I never felt like, I didn't ever come out like that.

You know what I mean? It wasn't like, my work was more about being sophisticated and sexy and playing with all those, you know, ideas of sexuality as opposed to like, I'm hardcore, you know, it was never like that. So I never felt like it was a threat to my career, because I thought people would just like evolve with it, you know? I mean, I completely agree that that's exactly what it was,

but I mean, you have to that that's exactly what it was, but, I mean, you have to acknowledge that that was pretty revolutionary. I mean, people were hiding that. Yeah. Or, you know. I guess I'm lucky. I just, like, you know, I was kind of a hybrid of, like, Julie Christie and, you know, and all these, like,

groovy actors, and, you know, I wanted to be a part of, like, the Warren Beatty setovy actors and you know I wanted to be a part of like the Warren Beatty set and you know and everybody's swinging and having hot sex and that was sort of like what my whole yeah you know undercurrent was about yeah yeah yeah I love that idea you know going to clubs and going to Europe and yeah hanging out on the Riviera. I just think fabulous, yeah. Fabulosity outweighed everything. Right, right, right. I love that. When did you meet Andre Leon?

You know it's funny, I always say it's a sign of a great friendship when you don't remember where you first met somebody. I really don't remember where I met him. I either... I don't know. I mean, honestly, I don't know if I met him through Isaac. So you knew Isaac Masahie first?

I think I might've. Okay. And he, I know he, as a young designer, was talking about people he wanted to dress and talked about you. That's right. And so that's how you became friends. He saw you as a muse and you became friends exactly and was sort of that the intro like I

see you ended up walking on like incredible runway shows with Chanel famously with a cigarettes if I remember right yes yeah I mean you were Terry Mugler I said yeah absolutely I mean was that was... Terry Mugler, Isen. Yeah, absolutely. I mean, was that, was he sort of the person that ushered you into that world? Well, I think it was a combination of him and Andre, but Andre actually like, kind of orchestrated it. Yeah.

But I don't remember how it all, I mean, for sure, Andre brought me to Paris to walk in the Chanel show. Right. That was very, that was a very specific moment. And we had such a great time. We were running all over Paris. Oh my god, I can only imagine. Oh no, you can't actually. It was so much fun.

What was the fashion scene like when you started, when you went into it? I have a very clear idea of what I think it would have been like, but you were kind of an outlier as well. I mean, you weren't necessarily a model. Right, exactly. I don't know, it was just so expansive and exciting and glamorous. And also, because it wasn't overexposed on social media and all these influencers who think they know anything about fashion. There were actually people who worked their way up as seamstresses and sewers and working

alongside the famous designers, the Jean-Paul Gaultieres, and John Galliano, and all the people from that era. Were you always interested in using clothing as an expression, or was that something that you kind of fell in love with these relationships? Yes, I mean, of course, when I first came to LA, I couldn't really afford things, but Paul Mooney who was my mentor would take me to second hand stores and he'd dress me in like

tuxedo jackets and he kind of helped me get my look together. The years went by and I was really starting to become part of it. People would gift me and give me clothes and then Isaac dressed me for many years so that was amazing. Not even when I was really skinny, so I could wear anything. You were very skinny. Yeah, I was really skinny.

You were skinny and you loved to show a nipple, and I loved it. Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha. Those are the years. Those are the years. When I first met you, you were still showing nipples. Oh yeah, but that's right. Yeah. Exactly. Didn't you, in your show when you were pregnant with Cipples. Oh yeah, but that's right. Yeah. Exactly.

Didn't you, in your show when you were pregnant with Cicely, didn't you wear like a mesh dress? Yeah, it was a dress from a designer named Ghost. Yeah. And it was cut on the bias. So the more my stomach grew, it just sort of like Jiffy Pop. It just kept going. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

The dress grew with me. Yeah, yeah. Until I popped. Jiffy Pop. Until we poked it and it just like came out. And steam came out. Steam and delicious popcorn. Yeah, a little bit of butter.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Now for a quick break, but don't go away. When we come back, Sandra talks to me about meeting her partner, Sarah, and playing one of the first queer women on the hit TV sitcom, Roseanne. Okay, be right back. Are you ever minding your own business and start to wonder,

is the Great Pacific Garbage Patch real? How do the Northern Lights happen? Why is weed not legal yet? I'm Jonathan Van Ness, and every week on Getting Curious, I sit down for a gorgeous conversation with a brilliant expert to learn all about something that makes me curious. Join me every Wednesday as we set off on a stunning journey of curiosity on a new subject

and dive into the archive of more than 370 episodes. Listen to Getting Curious wherever you get your podcasts. -♪ Hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, you get your podcasts. What was the last thing that filled you with wonder that took you away from your desk or your car in traffic? Well for us, and I'm going to guess for some of you, that thing is anime. Hi, I'm Nick Friedman. I'm Lee-Ally Murray. And I'm Leah President. And welcome to Crunchyroll Presents, the Anime Effect.

It's a weekly news show. With the best celebrity guests. And hot takes galore. So join us every Friday wherever you get your podcasts and watch full video episodes on Crunchyroll or on the Crunchyroll YouTube channel. And we're back with more dinners on me. What was the impetus for moving from Los Angeles to New York? I consider you such a New Yorker. Well, it was a combination of, you know, once I had Sicily and I met Sarah,

she was New York based. And working for Vanity Fair, and you know, I was like, well, I can operate out of New York. And we just thought it was a better fit for Sicily, and it always was, she never wanted to move to LA. She doesn't like LA. She's a real New Yorker. Yeah, to LA. Right. She doesn't like LA. Yeah. She's a real New Yorker.

Yeah, I know she is. Yeah, tried and true. Around the same time, I mean, I met you right before you started dating Sarah. Was it, she asked you to write an article for Harper's? That's what Harper's Bazaar. Right, and so that was how you two met. We ran into each other on the street

when I was living on 12th Street in Hudson. Then this woman came around the corner and I was living on 12th Street in Hudson. Then this woman came around the corner and I was holding Sicily and she walked past and kind of smiled and she came back and she said, Hi, I'm Sarah, your editor from... I said, Oh my God, I haven't started the piece yet. So we started talking. And then I quickly wrote the piece and got it to her. We were faxing. It was when you're still faxing. Yes. Yeah. Yeah. So you're faxing. She kept saying, Oh, we should have a drink

and talk about it. I thought, okay. And then I finished it, and then I said, why don't you come by the apartment and pick it up on a Friday morning on your way to work? You know, and she ended up hanging out for a couple of hours, and she finally had to leave. And the next night, I was doing that Gay Pride show

with Leah and Scott Thompson. Right. So, Sarah came. I think I was at that show. Was it at the Beacon? Yeah. Yes, I was at that show. That's when my top fell off.

Right, I remember that, yes. And I was standing there like, and top was, first I went like this, because I liked Sarah and I didn't want to show my tits to Sarah. Not yet, at least. Oh my God, I totally remember that night. That was like the second night that you met?

Yeah. Oh, wow. Yeah. After that, that's the night we got together, and that's our anniversary. June 26th is our 25th anniversary. I know. Yeah, coming up.

Quarter of a century. Yeah. It's incredible. I know. I mean, it just, it falls in line with all these very meaningful, long relationships you've had. I know. But you've never gotten married.

No, no, we haven't gotten married. Yeah. I don't know why, we just haven't, you know. Everything is like, legally in place. We don't want to rush into it. Ha ha ha, exactly. I mean, it's funny. Do you think you ever would, or it just,

at this point, like, why? I've just never been the marrying type Yeah, I mean, it's like I don't like I don't like the idea of it It's to me It feels like once you get married and think maybe bad things are gonna happen because you're married. It's too like Phosphophobic right? Stupid bet. I mean you are you basically having your you are like I guess by common law Yeah, of course, you know, of course we're married. I mean, you're basically, I mean, you are, like, I guess by common law. Yeah, of course. You know?

Of course we're married. Yeah, thank you. Those are delicious. Before Sarah, was there, did you have, like, meaningful relationships? I did, I did have some, but they were also, like, I was always, like, my career was always put in front of everything else.

And Sarah was so serious. And that's just like, it wouldn't have been any other way than what it is with her. She's a very no-nonsense person. What else was different about her that made you feel like that was someone for you? Well, I think, first of all, I had Cicely, so. Right, you'd already had Cicely at this point.

I had Cicely on my own. Cicely was about how old when you met Sarah? Almost a year old. Okay. Yeah. So I was kind of like, I'll probably just be on my own for a long time while Cicely's growing up, because I'm not going to jump in and out of relationships anymore. I won't do that, you know?

So when Sarah came on board, she was taking it very seriously. She was like, I need to think about this. There's a child involved. She'd never been in a relationship. She maybe dated, and I don't think she dated a woman. She'd been with men. So this was like all, this was all like sea change for her. So she really thought about it.

And then she was like, she stepped up. Yeah, I wanna be with you. I want to be Sisley's mom. And you know. What is it like getting to know someone and developing a relationship while there's a third person that also is needing love and attention? It seems complicated.

Well, it was carefree the first summer. I mean, it turned out great, let me just say. Yeah. I mean, you all three are an incredible family. I mean, you know, I always had full-time help, so. Yeah. It allowed Sarah and I a chance to spend some time together, at night, at least. Yeah.

And we just kind of like unfolded into a family. Yeah. kind of like unfolded into a family. And then, you know, we had two apartments at first and then we solidated and got our place here in Chelsea. So then it was all like full-on. And Sicily was, you know, two, three, and we just unfolded into our life and it's been incredible.

Ooh, that's pretty. Thank you, honey Thank you beautiful I love you Take your fish from me How is it That is really good. It is good. I mean, I was just watching the Letterman appearance that you and Madonna did together.

Have you watched that recently? Parts of it, parts of it. It is chaos in the best way. I mean, you have, you two completely hijacked the show. Beyond. Beyond. Yeah, part of it. In matching outfits. They play part of it in the outstanding. Oh yeah, let's talk about that. Beyond. Yeah, part of it. In matching outfits. They play part of it in the outstanding. Oh yeah, let's talk about that.

Yeah. Wait, is outstanding, is it Tribeca, right? Was it Tribeca? So tell me about this, is it a documentary about? Just a whole evolution of queer comedy. And it's really interesting because they tracked down this woman named Robin and Tyler who was really like the first out Day comedian in the 70s. She and her partner was called Harrison and Tyler and they actually had a

late-night entertainment show Okay, 70s Wow until they got too political and then they canceled the show but it's all there and They got too political and then they canceled the show, but it's all there in this documentary. It's so brilliant. And there's Lily Tomlin. It's an incredible cast. Lily Tomlin, Wanda Sykes, I think. Oh yeah, it's her company.

Oh, it's Wanda Sykes' company. There's Paige Horowitz in her part. Yeah. And she did such a great job. I can't wait to see it. Oh, it's on Netflix. Oh, is it already? Oh yeah. That's great. Yeah, she put out- What a cool thing to be a part of. I mean't wait to see it. Oh, it's on Netflix. Oh, is it already? Oh yeah.

That's great. What a cool thing to be a part of. I mean, it's so important that we have these archived things that we can look to. The comedy world is so richly saturated with history, and so much of where we've come to today is because of the barriers that were broken down by the LGBTQ media. Absolutely. For sure. Incredible stuff. Did they include any of the

stuff from your your shows, your one-woman shows? We used tons of stuff from the film without you on nothing. Yeah. I saw, it was on Broadway, when you were pregnant with Cicely. What was that called? Was it on Broadway? Yeah, no, if I was pregnant, it was off Broadway. Okay, what was that one called? That was called I'm Still Here Damn It. And then after I had Cicely, then I moved to Broadway.

With I'm Still Here Damn It? Yeah. I had a second run after I gave birth. And it was an HBO special. Right, right. Because I've since seen it again. Yeah. Like when I think of you, when I first met you, I was such a fan of that content.

You reminded me of like, I don't know, you don't remind me of anyone really, but like in the world of like Lily Tomlin and like you know these brilliant writer, comedians, just kind of restyling. I mean it's why I still love seeing you before you never let that go. I mean your show's on New Year's Eve for like, for a while, like it was required. Like if you had a ticket to your show on New Year's Eve,

you were very lucky. Wow. You know? I think people still like it. They do. It's a place to gather. Yeah. And really sweep the old year out

and bring the new one in. With positivity and love and optimism. Yeah, yeah, yeah. You know, it's not, you just gotta like keep peeling away the layers. Yeah. So important now more than ever. Yeah.

Also, you for me were really the first queer person on television with your role on Roseanne. I mean, I think, you know, people think about those milestones in TV history, and like, kind of everyone fast tracks to Alan coming out, but you were like, almost a decade before that, with a very unapologetically queer character, I think you did like 30 episodes of Roseanne or something,

I mean, it was quite a few. Yeah, yeah, a lot, a lot. Your character's name was? Nancy Bartlett. Nancy, Nancy, yeah., a lot. Your character's name was? Nancy Bartlett. Nancy, yeah. Yeah. A friend of Jackie's. Right.

Played by Laurie McCapp. But I remember that episode where you do come out, I remember you were unpacking creamers that were shaped like cows, do you remember this? Empty, loose meat cafe. Yeah, yeah, yeah, that's right, that's right. And I remember when you said, well, I'm not dating a man right now, I'm dating a woman.

And the audience reaction. I know, and also, Roseanne and Lori were like. Yeah, the shocked look on their face. It was insane, it was the funniest reaction. But it's interesting to watch it now because it just wouldn't matter as much anymore. Of course. It wouldn't have got that like, oh, from the audience.

Of course not. Obviously, things are not really taped in front of lives to the audiences anymore. But that reaction from the audience, combined with light sharing as well, yes, if people were into it, combined with the looks of shock that Roseanne and Lori Metcalf were giving you, it just all seems very dated, like that part of it.

Yeah, yeah. And yet, it such like a simply, there wasn't a huge spotlight put on it in a way. No, no, it was like a perfect sort of temperature around it. Yeah. You know, I thought. What was it like for you to play, I mean did you understand at the time,

like people ask me this all the time with being on Modern Family, like, what if I understood the importance of it while I was doing it? And I guess I always did, but always, I always knew I couldn't crumble under the pressure of being that. Yeah, actually, the most important thing is

that you are a compelling character. Exactly. And doing a great job with your acting, and staying in the moment. It wasn't like, here I am, changing culture and history, you know? Sure, but for me, roads have been paved and doors have been opened and it was less scary. Right.

I think there were not a lot of roads paved, if any, and not a lot of doors that were opened, if any, and you were kicking those roads, those doors down and, you know, and not a lot of doors that were opened, if any, and you were kicking those doors down and going on those roads, was that something that was scary for you? Well, I just thought it was great. No, no, not at all. Because Roseanne and I talked about it,

we knew that my relationship with Tom, because I married Tom Arnold in the show, was a dead end and he was such a bummer. So it wouldn't be funny if he drove me into the arms of a woman. So it was just like that was sort of the whole conceit of it. And so it didn't seem scary or forced or anything. It was just a funny, it was fun and funny. And it's like Nancy was such a part of that show. I mean there was, she came out of the closet and then she lived in that world

as a pretty major character for a long time, which I think was incredibly rare. And I think from- That's why it worked. Yeah, I agree with you. And also I feel like I just appreciate it in hindsight now having been on the other, having been in those same shoes with Modern Family.

Right, right. And now I'm sure you also came up against things with a network. I know there was a scene where you're standing underneath mistletoe with your girlfriend and you're not kissing, which is almost like pointing to the fact that we're not letting them kiss. Right, right, that was insane.

That was irritating. Yeah, I'm sure. You were all very annoyed with that. Yeah. On the set, we thought that was absurd. Did you have any sort of Contribution or say to where you? Yeah, no Roseanne and I we talked a lot about her character. She was great about that. Yeah. Yeah

absolutely, I mean That's why it's particularly sad that she's gone completely. Off the bars, yeah. I mean, she was so great. Yeah, yeah. And so groundbreaking. I don't know why she'd wanna sully.

I mean, she was always a loose cannon. That's also what people loved about her. Right. Have you been a part of the reboot at all? No, no, no. No. I sort of feel like, why wouldn't you want me back on? Right, right.

I get it. You could have fit Nancy back in there. There's always room for Nancy. I think so. I mean, I know you're obviously a massive advocate for reproduction rights and all that stuff. And I just look at your history of using humor and your outspokenness and your spotlight to talk about marriage equality.

And you talk about so many important things. You know, Sandyland, my radio show. I talk about all this stuff every week. I just feel like you've seen, I mean I'm sort of in the same boat. Like where we've seen the growth, we've seen the progress, and to see it sort of on the decline. I mean when you obviously have a young daughter right now, and I know Cicely, I mean I've talked to her a little bit about,

she's such an incredible human being. You've really done an incredible job, both you and Sarah, raising her. She's remarkable. So smart, so savvy. I mean, she's a product of both of you. I mean, I know genetically she's a lot of you, but there's so much of Sarah in her. There's so much of Sarah. And I have talked to her about this stuff.

She's very fired up about kind of continuing what you've already put out there and following your footsteps in that way. I mean, she's really remarkable. Does she ever consume any of your earlier? Has she watched you? She's just sort of started to get into it. She texted me a few weeks ago.

She and her friend Brian, they're both film buffs, went to the film form to see King of Comedy. She said, we got the last two seats, you sold out show. She goes, I'm so proud of you, Mom. It's just great. So that to me was like. I mean, you were incredible in that film. Thank you. Absolutely incredible.

But for her to like on her own go to see it and then respond to it. And she comes to my shows now every year. Yeah, yeah, yeah, of course. She gets a kick out of it, yeah. But it's also cool to like have that archive. I kind of wish I had those moments where I could go back, my mom was an OB-GYN doctor, my dad was a microbiologist, but I wish that there was

some sort of time capsule that I could go back and check in on them at their younger ages. And sort of experience them. And that king of comedy is that moment for you. I mean, I know you were doing other things before then, but that really was a huge turning point in your career and in your life. And to have that sort of documented and archived

and preserved and Sicily's able to go back and like witness that and relive it, especially in a sold out audience full of other people who were maybe watching for the first time, is really, really fucking cool. I know, it's really cool. Yeah. It's so cool.

No, I was very happy about that. Yeah. Thank you. I'm really happy you said yes to this. Of course I was waiting for you to invite me. I kept seeing you post people. I was like, why hasn't he asked me to do this yet? No.

Thank you for doing this. I love you. I love you, honey. So much. Anytime I get to hang out with you, I'm just so excited. And as the best. Yes. This episode of Dinners on Me was recorded in Cookshop in New York City. Next week on Dinners on Me, you know her from Grand Cru, Wipeout, and her podcast, Why Won't You Date Me?

It's Nicole Byer. We'll get into what it's like to be so public about your sex life, how she nails, pun intended, those reactions on Nailed It, and dealing with the disappointment of the recent cancellation of her NBC sitcom, Grand Cru. And if you don't wanna wait until next week to listen, you can download that episode right now

by subscribing to Dinners On Me Plus. As a subscriber, not only do you get access to new episodes one week early, you'll also be able to listen completely ad-free. Just click Try Free at the top of the Dinners on Me show page on Apple Podcasts to start your free trial today. Dinners on Me is a production of Sony Music Entertainment and a kid named Beckett Productions. It's hosted by me, Jesse Tyler Ferguson. It's executive produced by me and Jonathan Hirsch.

Our showrunner is Joanna Clay. Our associate producer is Angela Vang. Sam Baer engineered this episode. Hans-Dyl She composed our theme music. Our head of production is Sammy Allison. Special thanks to Tamika Balanz-Kolassny and Justin Makita. I'm Jesse Tyler Ferguson, join me next week.