Dinner’s on Me with Jesse Tyler Ferguson - Zachary Quinto and Jonathan Van Ness on reclaiming queer narratives

Episode Date: November 21, 2023

Over the course of the show, I’ve been able to share some of my personal life with you – from meeting Justin and our decision to get married, to parenting our two sons. It means a lot to me that we can have those conversations especially at a time when the rights of queer people, especially in the trans community, are under attack. It’s been so special to have these conversations with my guests as well. First up, “Star Trek” star Zachary Quinto. Over salads at American Bar in the West Village, we discuss his decision to come out publicly and our fun romps around Silver Lake gay bars in our 20s. Then, we have podcast host, haircare entrepreneur and “Queer Eye” star Jonathan Van Ness. Jonathan tells me what it’s like to live in Texas as a queer person, their journey to discovering their nonbinary identity and why a guinea pig named Peanut is causing a stir in some libraries. A Sony Music Entertainment & A Kid Named Beckett production. Interested in advertising on the show, contact [e-mail]. Find out more about other podcasts from Sony Music Entertainment at sonymusic.com/podcasts and follow us @sonypodcasts. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

I love being a student of life. I love continuing my education. I do not want to go back to high school, but I do love masterclass. Memberships start at $120 a year for unlimited access to one-on-one classes with all 180-plus masterclass instructors. This holiday season, give one annual membership and get one free at masterclass.com slash

dinners. That's right. Right now, you can get two memberships for the price of one at masterclass.com slash dinners. Offer term supply. Hey dinners on me listeners. I feel so honored and privileged, really, to be able to discuss so many aspects of my personal life with you, my coming-out story, my marriage to Justin and the beautiful family that we've

created. It means a lot to me that we can have those conversations, especially at a time when rights of queer people, especially people in the trans community are under attack. And it makes it even more important for me to be able to give awareness and visibility and rights of queer people, especially people in the trans community are under attack. And it makes it even more important for me to be able to give awareness and visibility into other stories, other than my own. I've had so many great conversations on this podcast from my friend Zachary Prentos story on deciding to come out publicly to Jonathan Van Ness and all their amazing activism

and openness about their own positive status. I hope to continue to have more of these conversations because they're just so important to me and they're so special to me. So on that note, I'd love to revisit some of my favorite moments of some of these very special conversations. At first we have my friend Zachary Quinto, he's gonna start us off. You know him from Star Trek and the boys in the band on Broadway. I asked him to meet me to chat over some salads at American Bar in the West Village. You know, our early days in LA together, you know, we did live close to one another on the east side of LA. Sure. And I knew, you were out to your friends, you were gay,

you were enjoying your life as a gay man, you were going to act bar together, which is, one of the best bars in Los Angeles on the East Side, we were there quite a bit. We sure were. And I do remember also, like when, oh, backpack, there was a guy at Act Bar who was wearing a backpack. It just is wearing a backpack.

Zach and I both thought that he was wearing a backpack in the bar. And I thought he was both really handsome and Zach ended up having a knowing him. Knowing him. I totally forgot about backpack. Yeah, backpack. But I mean, those moments were so special, like just having that sort of safety net in LA, having someone who was a part of the queer community, although you hadn't come out publicly at that point yet. But like, you know, sometimes I felt safe with and like showing me to all these places,

having a wingman, you know, to be a single man in Los Angeles and go to these places. And I also remember when I leaving that bar and across the street above the Teng's doughnut was a huge billboard for heroes. But I've been right after you joined heroes. So I was also watching because I moved LA. I was part of a sitcom that did not succeed. I've kept my end in an entity pretty much intact. There was a few people who maybe knew who I was, but you were thrust onto this wildly popular show, mid-season in the first year. It's a character that had been talked about a lot in the series. You were the villain that finally made an appearance,

Siler. Do you want some of these? What is this artichoke's end fries? Looks like a little poo poo platter. Yeah, poo poo platter fried things. Okay, so good. I got to watch you, you know, a friend, what I considered a contemporary sort of move into this other area of success.

And it was the first time, I mean, I guess I saw it a little bit with Liz Banks, but like I wasn't going out to gay bars with her. You know, it was the first time I was seeing a friend of mine sort of like in real time, have a great break. And sort of also navigate what that meant for his personal life. Can you speak a little bit to like what that, because this is again, before you came out publicly right we will get to but like What was I like for you because in my eyes you didn't change too much of your behavior? Yeah, I really didn't and that's a commitment I made to myself early on when I realized that my

Experiences in the world were changing a bit, you know, I made a real conscious Decision and commitment to myself that I would not change my experiences of the world. Does that make sense? Yeah. I wasn't gonna allow exposure or fame, celebrity to define my experience or to define who I was. I think my friends and the people that were close to me

and that I trusted before all that happened became even more important to me. And I'd been out for a while. I think it was eight years that I was in a light before heroes. Happening heroes was really the project that changed my trajectory, and then immediately after heroes, I got Star Trek. And so that year of my life was the year I turned 30.

It was so crazy, you know, for one thing to happen that felt like, oh my god, look, I've achieved this thing. And then six months later, this other thing happened. Right. It was like, oh, I can't even, it felt like hitting a lottery twice, you know? You know, in those moments with heroes, when you were like meeting the cast,

you were meeting the people in the hair and makeup trailer. Right. Sort of like not necessarily like the executives, or you know, maybe even like the writers. Like, were you open about who you were like in your private life, were you guarded? Were there certain people that you were telling these things to or sharing things with? And certain people that you weren't, were you compartmentalizing and like kind of keeping that out of the conversation? Yeah, I mean, I wasn't leading with it. It wasn't something that I was talking about openly.

It wasn't something that I was actively trying to hide. You know, when you and I were coming up, it was a completely different time. And the idea of being gay was entirely different than it is now. I mean, the changes that we've experienced in the last 15 years in our cultural society and our business are momentous. So it was something that I still felt like I needed to control. There was a sense of needing to decide what the narrative would be. I mean, those were the days of fear of lack of opportunity. Yeah, I think for fear of fear, just for fear of,

we were conditioned to be afraid of being gay. That's just the truth. I mean, you know, that's true of my upbringing. You know, I was raised very Catholic and you know, the church, the way that things were instilled in me as a kid led me to believe that there was something wrong with that part of me. Right?

That was the days when like Perez Hilton was still like outing people. Someone caught a whiff that you might be gay, then all of a sudden this kind of attention got paid to you that was, there was an insidiousness to it, and there was a perniciousness to it. So, I was definitely aware of that. I mean, I was out to everybody in my life by that time, my friends and my family. Well, if you were operating on a day to day,

like if you wanted to go out to a gay bar, you were not worrying about that. And there were people that would see you and maybe talk and that was not. So I didn't see you making you nervous at all. No, it was more of a public narrative than anything else. My life as an actor and my career was something that I was very measured about.

I was very, for those first years of success, it took me five years after heroes until I came out publicly. Coming to that self-realization yourself is incredibly important and it needs to be on your own timeline. Yeah, it's coming out as an incredibly personal journey and it is an evolution and it feels like especially when you're in the public eye and making the declaration of identifying as a member of the LGBTQ plus community, there are other considerations and I think you can't be an effective contributor to the broader cause unless you've arrived there in an authentic

way. Nobody can define what that is except yourself. I was aware of it. And then eventually when I started getting closer with castmates and people in the world of the show, I started to acknowledge that to them. And I can remember being at Comic Con for a panel for heroes. And this was a defining moment. It was one of those big panels at Comic Con in like, college with like thousands and thousands of people.

And this moderator was a well-known filmmaker and he was doing the interview. And then he, at the end end he said something. I don't think he said Faggot but he definitely said something like he made some reference not to me was like it was he was interviewing and it was a gay reference and I was absolutely furious. I was so angry. I couldn't believe that it had happened, that he had said it, and it was so casual, like, cavalier. And we got off the stage and I was so mad.

That was for me a moment, because I hadn't come out yet. I hadn't been out publicly and I hadn't even been out to everybody in my show. And I just remember thuming and talking to our showrunner and our producers, we're all hanging out afterwards and just like the level of support that I got from everybody was so overwhelming and the sense of understanding. And there was a lot that was unsaid and unspoken from my position. Obviously they didn't need to know why I was so upset by it, right? Or they knew why I was so upset by it. I need to say it.

And that was a moment for me that sort of really softened the boundaries around my relationship with my classmates and my co-workers, my colleagues. They're a spoken understand. Yeah, of course. I mean, they saw that it had affected me so personally. And even though I hadn't explicitly come out to them, or that it didn't take much to figure it out.

And it was things like that, right? That I think over time made me more comfortable and more confident in my authentic self. And over the next few years, I was able to find my way to making up more of a public acknowledgement of my identity. Right, which eventually happened when you were doing angels in America. It didn't happen when I was doing angels in America,

actually, interestingly, I thought it would. I thought it did. No, I did angels in America in 2010. I didn't come up publicly until a year later, 2011, actually. So when I was doing angels in America, obviously, I thought, well, this is going to be the moment. And just to pause really quickly, like angels in America, obviously I thought, well this is gonna be the moment. And just to pause really quickly, like angels in America is like this iconic,

it is the crown jewel of queer theater. Yeah, written by the Tony Krishna, the brilliant Tony Krishna, one that peeled the prize, one Tony Awards. And you were involved in the first in New York revival of this piece and there was a lot of eyes on it, a lot of excitement around it. Yeah, it was originally done in the introduction.

94 and we did the first New York revival at the Signature Theater 2010. So I was being interviewed for a profile in the New York Times and I had this interview with this journalist and he asked me this question right at the end. He said, you know, there's a lot of speculation online about who you're dating. And if you're dating or who you're dating, and I just wonder what that's like, you know,

do you, and I just remember like sitting there with him and being like, oh my god, he's not going to happen. It's happening. I can't do that. And I just, I remember saying like, oh, I really copped out. And I said something like, well, I'm much more interested in what people have to say about my work than about who I'm dating. Which in Hollywood journalist terms is like, yeah, okay, sure, honey.

We get it. Okay. But I just wasn't in that moment. I just wasn't ready. Yeah, I wasn't ready to do it. Going back to what I'm saying, you have to be ready. You have to be on your own.

Of course, I mean, there's no- Don't feel bad about that. No, no, I don't feel bad about it. You know, I did feel like- But you were flagging it as an opportunity. A missed opportunity in that moment. And I did feel like there was part of me that felt like, oh my god, you know, here I'm doing this play

about the AIDS epidemic God, you know, here I'm doing this play about the AIDS epidemic and so much about honoring the people who died and my four bears. Did I squander that opportunity? There was that question that I had for myself. And another thing that happened that same summer while I was doing Angels of America, was the summer that it gets better campaign was kind of at its peak, right? So people were all these, you know, people from the LGBTQ community and allies were making these videos to say it gets better. And all these young people were killing themselves. That's

the right. If you remember that, but like there were a number of suicides of young people who were bullied and, you bullied and who just felt like there was no other way and they were killing themselves. So that was really the genesis of the It Gets Better campaign. I remember making it, it gets better video that summer while I was doing agency in America, but I hadn't come out publicly. For me, the video was, I stand with as an ally. You know, I didn't acknowledge my own identity as a gay man,

but I said, like, I support all these people and, you know, any young people, like, you know, it does get better and whatever I join, I think I said something like I joined the chorus of voices who were rising up again, whatever. And put that video out, you know, and so I was doing this play and I was living my life and going out and dating people and having this experience. Not me, not me.

Not me, not me, not me. Not me, not me, not me. Not me, not me, not me. Not me, not me, not me. Not me, not me, not me. Not me, not me, not me. Not me, not me, not me. Not me, not me, not me. Not me, not me, not me. Not me, not me. Not me, not me. Not me, not me. Not me, not me. Not me, not me. Not me, not me. Not me, not me. Not me, not me. Not me, not me. Not me, not me. Not me, not me. Not me, not me. Not me, not me. Not me, not me. Not me. Not me, not me. Not me, not me. Not me, not me. Not me. Not me. Not me. Not me. Not me. Not me. Not me. Not me. Not me. Not me. Not me. Not me. Not me. Not me. Not me. Not me. Not me. Not me. Not me. Not me. Not me. Not me. Not me. Not me. Not me.

Not me. Not me. Not me. Not me. Not life. And the play was incredible. I mean, had an amazing time doing that play in living in New York. And so that was really that, that for that time. And then a year later, I was doing, by this time now, I was dating Jonathan by now. I think I was, yeah. Because we were, yeah, we met. So I was dating Jonathan and I had done Star Trek.

So I had sort of reached a level of exposure and I felt like my identity, the integration of my identity and my public life, you know, was starting to close in. Like the lines were starting to, you know, they're about to intersect. I felt that way. I had produced my first film and started in the movie. It's called Margin Call. And thank you. And a pretty wonderful experience.

Oscar nominated. Oscar nominated film. So I was doing, I was doing press for Margin Call. And right around that time, I read a story about a young kid who killed himself. His name was Jamie Rotemeyer, and I was reading the story about him and his life. And in the story, it had mentioned that a few months

before he took his own life, he made it, and it gets better video. I mean, I get really even talking about it now. It's so, I couldn't believe it. It was like that fact was included in the story about him like directly for me, right? Because I just feel like here I was living this life of opportunity and privilege.

And I was keeping this part of myself separate and private. And it was the first time I think that I realized the power of my voice in the broader conversation socially, and I felt like I had no choice in the matter anymore at that time. And I was doing press for Margin Call. And so there was a lot of attention being paid to me at this time again, and I was doing another profile for New York Magazine. And I remember being, I was a cafe clownie, another place we New York magazine. And I remember being at was a cafe cloonie

in other place with Ian together. Yes. And I was sitting with a journalist and I remember I made the decision the day before I went to do this profile that I was gonna come out. And I didn't tell anyone. I didn't tell my publicist, I didn't tell my friends, I didn't ask anybody to guide me or advise me.

I didn't tell Jonathan, I didn't tell anyone. I just made the decision that I was gonna... With much more vindictive, you were more vindictive as a wrong word. You were more, so I was gonna get this point. I'm sorry. But there's much more vindication this time around

than there was before when you thought, I might come out in this New York Times piece. I still don't think vindication is the right one either. Okay, what do you think? Conviction. Conviction. I think that's what you're looking for, right? There was no question in the matter for me, to the point where, you know, again, at that

time, I think even still today, like coming out publicly, a lot of people would consult their team and talk to their publicists and make sure everybody's on board with it. And for me, it was absolutely no question in my mind that that was going to be what I did. And so I went to this interview at Cafe Clunino, sitting with this journalist and he brought up English in America, was talking to me about, you know, what it was like to do that play. And I just simply referred to myself as a gay man. I said the words, well, you know, as a gay man, having that experience for me was da da da.

And I could feel him. He was like taking notes. And I felt him, as I said that, he stopped the writing. His pen hovered and I felt him, sort of, like, did that just happen? Like, did what I think happened just happened? And then he just kept going. And so a few minutes later, I was like, did he get it? Like, was that enough? Like, whatever. So then I referred to myself again as a gay man in the set, you know, again. And that did the trick. I think it was like about a week, you know, lead time. Like we did the interview and the article was coming out

like a week or so later. And so I finished the interview and then I went home and then I told everybody, right? I told all my team and I called my public and I said, I just want you to know what I've done. Everybody was incredibly supportive and that began the conversation in a public way. And so when the article came out, obviously,

the headline was that and I drafted a statement, I think I had a website at the time, it's like when people sell it websites, but I drafted a statement and I- I quit the .net. Put it on my website, my blog, or whatever. And that was it. It certainly got picked up over the place.

But this is also the era of Tier and I coming out on the cover of People magazine and Patrick Harris. And I find that sort of range of ways you can come out publicly kind of fascinating and how you sit in that range. I think it's very fascinating and also very true to who you are. It felt very authentic. Did you have like kind of an awareness of that as you were?

Well, obviously, you had a plan to talk about this. But for me, I did it on my own terms in my own time without the advice or counsel of anyone but myself. And I think it informed the work that I've been able to do subsequently on behalf of some of these young people, especially who have struggled and have suffered as a result of not being accepted and in a lot of cases not accepting themselves. You know, one of the first things I did after I came out publicly

was contact with the Trevor Projects in Los Angeles Because that was an organization that I had supported for years quietly and anonymous. They do is Sorry, it's a yeah, the Trevor Project is an anti Suicide hotline essentially and they do incredible work I mean, it's really to me one of the most Phenomenal organizations to benefit the LGBTQ plus community and young people in particular in the community. And I had supported them for years anonymously donating money and whatever, but I could

never, obviously, publicly support them. And so I immediately reached out to them and went into their offices in Los Angeles and got a tour and met the people that ran the organization and met volunteers. And by the end of that visit, I had committed to go through the Lifeline training to become a Lifeline operator on the phone. So for the next year, year and a half, I would go and do shifts at the Trevor Project and man the phones and talk to young people who were contemplating taking their lives. Absolutely incredible. So the level of work that I was able to do to make an actionable difference in the lives of people was so phenomenal and it felt so gratifying and then just being able to be a visible ally and to be somebody in the community who was able to say, like,

look, you know, it's possible to be true to who you are and to still succeed and to still have opportunities and to not be defined by it. Now for a quick break, but don't go away. When we come back, I talk to the wise and hilarious Jonathan Van Ness about their non-binary journey, coming out about their HIV positive status, and why queer activism is so important to them. Okay, be right back. Hi, I'm Joanna. I produce dinners on me.

And let me tell you, I love me some royal drama. So I'm very excited for the new season of the Crown and for the new season of the Crown, the official podcast, which will go behind the scenes of the sixth and final season of the acc, the official podcast, which will go behind the scenes of the sixth and final season of the acclaimed series. So get out your calendar because you're going to want to write down this date. November 16th.

That's when the first episode of the Crown, the official podcast drops. And of course, it helps if you watch the series premiere first, which drops the same day. Host Edith Bowman will take you behind the scenes episode by episode, talking to the talented cast and crew from writer and creator Peter Morgan to the crown's Princess Diana, played by Elizabeth DeBickey or Dominic West, who you know as Prince Charles on the show.

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Limited time offer. The creditor and issue of this card is US bank national association pursuant to a license from visa USA Inc. Some restrictions may apply. It's so funny because when I was a student in grade school and high school, I didn't love the classroom structure. But now as an adult, I actually seek out opportunities to continue my education,

to learn more, to expand my talents and my abilities. It's why I started taking a few acting classes on master class. They have several from Samuel L. Jackson, to Helen Mirren and Natalie Portman. I mean, they can't promise me the careers that they have, but I don't know, I love learning from these masters. Can you imagine how much it would cost to take one-on-one classes with people in the best of their fields? Easily hundreds of thousands of dollars.

With a master class annual membership, it's literally $10 a month. This holiday season give one annual membership and get one free at masterclass.com slash dinners. That's right, now you can get two memberships for the price of one at masterclass.com slash dinners. That's masterclass.com slash dinners. Offer Terms Apply. I missed you. Season 2 of Julia, the Max Original series about the life and times of culinary icon Julia Child, returns Thursday, November 16. I'm Carrie Diamond, host of Dishing on Julia, the official companion podcast.

Join me as I dish with the show's creators and creatives. Stream Julia on Max and listen to Dishing on Julia, wherever you get your podcasts. I'm thrilling. Next, we have Hair Care Entrepreneur, host of Getting Curious with Jonathan Van Ness, and the star of Queer Eye, Jonathan Van Ness. I am so glad they agreed to chat with me at Bad Roman in New York City. It's whimsical and beautiful, just like Jonathan, and I absolutely love this conversation. Wait, so tell me you were talking about Texas.

Okay, Texas, I you were talking about Texas. Okay, Texas, I forgot to say something serious. So yeah, so it's really been interesting being there. I do feel like I kind of have been getting there, getting boiled, but I feel like it's like a long game. It's not a short game. Absolutely. So that's what I tell myself, but I do miss my friends in LA and New York, and I miss

living in a state where I don't be like the legislator is specifically trying to make my life and people like me's life harder and less welcome. Yeah, man, it's gotta be taxing on just the psyche. Talk to me a little bit about the evolution of you becoming non-binary, and that was like a, was that something that always was like a definition you were searching for? No, it's just something that I definitely always was, and it's really when I met my friend

Aloke, who is, I don't know if you've ever heard of Aloke, but they're one of the most incredible poets, comedians, writers, producers, thought leaders, just one of my favorite people of all time. And they were really the one who taught me about what non-binary is. Once they explained to me what that was, I was like, oh, that's exactly, but everyone has a kind of like a different experience with like their non-binary identity,

non-binary and like gender diverse expressions have existed for thousands and thousands of years on every single continent. So that's very true. But it wasn't something that I was necessarily searching for, but I do think, especially because I'm also someone who's dealt with sexual compulsivity, which can happen a lot of times

when you're a survivor of sexual abuse, like everyone deals with their abuse in different ways. And for me, it made me like really just an absolute husse for a long time. Like I just was fucking everything that wasn't tied down. Not at all, but you know when you're doing things that you were gratt and that you aren't in control of. That's like, that's for me, we're like,

that's kind of, and so for me I found that like really any sort of of my feminine expression was such a repulsion to me that like I really banished that part of myself because I came into my 20s because I was like, oh my God, that I really banish that part of myself as I came into my 20s because I was like, oh my God, if I want these dudes to, it's like my list was all that they could handle. So I had to hide my heels, hide my wigs, hide my makeup,

I always had to like hidden in a little bit of my closet. Remember this one trick found my shoes and I was like, oh my sister with huge feet. My sister with my huge footed sister with that taste was here with that taste. Yeah sister with bad taste was here. With bad taste. Yeah, with bad taste, because she shops at pay less. It's the only place that I've used big enough

for a big S.V. So yeah, it just was like a more shame-laced place. And then I realized once a number of people I had sex with got a comma in it. And I had been to rehab a few times. I realized that I was like, oh, like sacrificing who I am to have this fleeting connection that actually makes me feel worse about myself isn't worth it.

I don't want to sacrifice myself anymore. And then I got to this place of healing and therapy. That was like in my mid to late 20s. And really, I didn't still have the language for what non-binary meant, but just didn't feel like I never edited myself for dating or sex ever again. Right. First of all, I love how you're such an ambassador,

I guess, in some ways, about being HIV positive. I think visibility is so wildly important. Obviously, we're living in an era where it's much more different to be HIV positive now than it was 10 years ago. Talk to me a little bit about your diagnosis with HIV in 2012. And then you didn't come out publicly to the media and press about it till 2019. Well to be fair, no one really knew who I was until like 2018. Sure, sure, sure.

I mean, but you were, I'm sure you were telling your friends and your family. Oh yeah, I'm like, yeah. Talk to me about. I was part of why I did talk about it. Yeah. Because I was so open about it in my life. And so it wasn't like it was ever a secret in my universe. And so that was also partly why I was like,

I want to talk about this on my own terms. And just wasn't sure if I was ready yet at the very beginning. And now that I was ever discouraged from doing so, but then after a few experiences, I was like, fuck this, I'm ready to talk about it. And so then I did. Yeah. Well, I really wrote about it in my book.

In my first book over the top, but then you got for that. Oh, that's what truly was, like, on your own terms and your own words. Yeah. In a long form with nuance. Yeah. That's great.

But that's all was so interesting about it was, is that like, so in over the top, it was on my terms. But then I didn't realize until like a month before over the top came out that like, thank you, honey. I was like, wait, so I'm going to, because obviously, with the book coming out, my PR was like, it's really important that we partner with like the right person to like tell this story. And so then the New York Times came along and I was like, well, Jesus, honey, like that is giving journalism to excellence. But it never

occurred to me that if I did that, like they would break my story. Like I wouldn't break it. Like they would break it. And I remember like I was already way too far in and like I think my publicist was just like, girl, don't you know, like that's how it. And I remember like I was already way too far in and like I think my publicist was just like, girl don't you know, like that's how it works, but I didn't know and I totally didn't get it. And it was really, it felt for you to have. And, and incredible stress because I did the interview maybe like a month before, but like it was the Emmys and I knew like, they said like when the article would come out,

but between like a Friday and a Sunday's, I didn't know like the minute I was doing red carpets and doing tour stuff for comedy tour at the time. I was going on, I think I was in Canada just for last festival, but I remember thinking, is this article going to come out when I'm on stage? I'm going to come off stage and everyone's going to know. Is there going to be some point when everyone's going to know? Ultimately happened. I remember we got back into New York at like six in the morning and then me and my best friend,

who's also my makeup artist, like passed out on my couch, like a my fifth story, like walk up that I lived in in Chelsea at the time. And we passed out when I woke up like my phone. I had like hundreds of missed calls. And like I was like, oh my god, it's out. You're gonna talk about it now. I'm like, oh, like I've like a pit in my stomach.

And it was cool, it was good. Like it was. Was there a sense of relief that it was out as well? Or? Yeah, it really was like kind of like a Twilight Zone. Because then I like went on like the book tour and then I was like, and I- Yeah, then you're asking, I'm sure that was the first

question ever. And also my chat, I just like died tragically, which was like so insane. Yeah. I was like, and I have been asking to, I'm sure that was the first question. And also my cat and I just like, died tragically, which was like, so insane. Yeah. I remember my mom especially, like I tried off for the talent show in sixth grade and I ended up making it with this incredibly stirring

interpretive, bad belly, ice figure skating, hybrid dance form that I made up to this like jewel song and I remember my mom sitting me down and being like, if you make this talent show, like, you're never gonna live this down, like these kids are never gonna forgive you for this. And similarly, when I wrote my book, she was like, honey, if you like, there's no taking this back.

And like, and like, you don't have to do this. Like, I know you wanna help, I know you wanna be like, but you don't have to do this. And a lot of people said that to me. And I was like, I'm ready, like, and HIV's taking my way between the screen right now. And then afterwards, like, the vulnerability hangover was so intense.

It was January 2020, because it came out in like September of 2019 and when the tour was over and when like that comedy tour was over, I was like, I never wanted to leave my house again. Like, I'm happy I did it now, but there was like a good, like, six months to a year there where I was really traumatized. Also, in our community, there was a few times where people really weaponized it against

me, making jokes on Twitter, just memes. Because actually, some of the worst shit people have ever said to me was from in our community. Way worse than Trump people. That's been weird because I love our community and I'll fight for our community no matter what, whenever, however, and I know they know how to hurt each other from us. And it's like, so that was just, I had heard stuff before and I had seen stuff before, but once I was like open about my status and having people making jokes about dying of full blown AIDS or just really, that fucked me up and it fucked me up for a while.

There's so many times where I used to get headlines where I'm like, I'm never doing that shit again, like that felt bad. I will keep my opinions to myself. Right. Right. Unless it's about who you are. Right of course. I mean, yeah, absolutely.

And do you feel, I mean you sort of spoke to it a little bit, but do you feel like society is doing a little bit better or worse than marketly so much worse? Yeah, agreed. Yeah, so much worse. Yeah, agreed. Yeah, so stressed out. Yeah. I'm, Jesse, I'm so stressed the fuck out about it. Yeah. Like I think there are reasons to hope,

but I'm also kind of shitting my pants like I can't tell. Well, I'm such an optimist, so I try to look for the silver lining everywhere, but I'm in the same place where I just, I'm very discouraged and scared. It's giving full circle though, not interrupt, and it's like, but it's only because I'm in the same place where I just I'm very discouraged and scared. It's giving full circle though, not to interrupt. And it's like, but it's only because I'm obsessed with you and I like, I'm like, really into chatting.

I like, it's so excited. And then I can't not interrupt. It's not one of my better parts of my personality. But we've been talking about this on our pod and like, especially when it comes to gender affirming care, when we were talking about Texas at the beginning, that's one of the things I'm like the most concerned about because it's like first you have the court, and then you have the court of appeals and the district court, and then it's a Supreme Court,

and the way is that cases get fast-tracked to the Supreme Court is when the Circuit Court, so you're like the first Circuit, the second Circuit, the third, the fourth of it. When Circuit Court's rule opposing decisions, it gets fast-tracked. And so some of these gender-cerming carabéans have been upheld and allowed to go into effect, circuit courts rule opposing decisions, it gets fast tracked. Some of these gender-affirming carebeans have been upheld and allowed to go into effect,

but then other ones have been struck down, and similar with drag performance. But the point is, there's going to be all of these anti-trans and anti-queribels, and because a lot of them are in conservative states that are in different circuit courts, we now have a Supreme Court that has a 6-3 majority that has shown that they don't have a fuck about separation of church and state, and they've ruled it time and time again, especially with 3-3 versus Linus, or Ellenus, or however you say it. But this court's bad, and I think that Biden is he exciting? For me, yeah, he gets me stoking fucking what actually. I want him and Jill to run a fucking train on me, actually.

And our lack of enthusiasm for him is pissing me, the fuck off. Is there other people who I would like loved at the anti-Size about? Yeah, I was like the biggest Elizabeth Warren queen I know. Like do I like Bernie's ideas like, way fucking better? You're goddamn right, I do.

But here's the thing folks, this is where we fucking are. And I do think that there's a lot of people know offense that are in our circles, in New York and in California, that think, is it getting better? Is it getting worse? Like I can tell you, undoubtedly, in Texas, from being on the ground.

You're talking to a girl who like goes to the Capitol in Texas like I talk to parents of trans kids regularly that have left states. And what about the parents of trans kids who cannot afford to pick up and leave states? Because I talked to those parents too. And trans rights, 100% but also the fact that we don't realize that trans rights are inextricably tied to women's rights

and abortion rights. 100%. This has happened together. And so just the amount of comfort that I see people taking and like, well, I live in California, or I live in New York, I'm like, I can get an abortion if I need to. One of my friends, like, y'all,

that people's lives are on fucking fire, your fellow Americans, because it's like gerrymandering, like minority rule, now we're seeing a six-subframe court justice in Wisconsin who like, these Republicans are literally trying to impeach this woman because she said that these maps were gerrymandered.

So have you heard about this? Yes, yes, yes. So, like, because she said that the maps have been rigged, they wanted to accuse herself from these two cases and the Wisconsin Supreme Court about their, like, gerrymandered fucking into there, well, if you don't do it, we're going to impeach you. And because of gerrymandering, they have a super majority in the state house and the Senate. And they have the power, they actually have the exact amount of senators

that they need to do that. And so that's what I mean. It's like, it's a long-term game. We got a fucking comm. And I hate to be one of those people that's like the media. But the more hits and impressions you make, the more you can sell ads for. Like I come from a broadcasting family.

You're worth more when you get more traffic to your site. And negative headlines because of our survival bias, get more traffic than one that's like he's doing great or someone's doing great. So if we could just like stop being agious and cunts to the Biden administration and more like trigger everyone's fear from the fact that like there's a six fucking three real super majority in the Supreme Court right now, and these conservatives are coming out every fucking week being paid off by billionaires

who get money from dark fucking money and they are busting unions. They busted your fucking female, the only members right to get a damn abortion in like 27 fucking states in this country. And if you don't think they are coming for you next, honey, get it together. So if we could just make some more like media

that's more like that as opposed to being like, no, but he's so old and like, he doesn't give me a boner. President Biden, with all due respect, I will suck your dick. Right now, you have gotten this shit past. If Jill wants to watch, so fucking be it. He's probably gonna follow me on Instagram right now. Once he hears this, because President Biden

does in fact follow me on Instagram, so maybe we should add to all of this stuff, but I'll just say this. He has done a lot, and I do think he's our best chance at keeping Trump out of office, and I'm really concerned. Yeah, no, 100% I'm not.

But I'll just say, it's not just, obviously, the federal elections, but wherever you live, it is so your state elections too. Absolutely. That's where so much of the carnage is. And if you're listening to this, you're like, well federal elections, but wherever you live, it is so your state elections too. That's our so much of the carnage is. And if you're listening to this thing, like, well, fuck, I'm one of these fucking coastal leads. Bitch, I'm in LA, I'm in California,

what am I gonna do? There's this thing called sister district. I do know about sister district. I'm so obsessed with sister district. I love Lalla Wu, Gabby Goldstein, they found it sister district. I'm like huge cheerleader of them, but you can donate your time,

your money, your resources. They pair like swing districts and swing states with people who are like your LAs, your New York, like your very progressive queens and progressive places where like they don't even need your voting marks or so progressive, you know? They paired them with people who really need the support and the resources for phone banking,

resource sharing. And also like on off-election years, they really helped to facilitate, oh my god, mutual aid. So there's like, this is a huge off-election year in Virginia. Their entire state house and centers up for grabs, Deanna Carrone, the first openly transgender state elected official ever in history is from Virginia. She has a really anti-trans guy running against her. But yeah, so if you're just like, oh my god, I'm so stressed out listening to J.B. on living in Texas, and this is so stressful, and what can I do to help a queen?

Donate to sister districts. That's great advice. Please. We got a sex. That's what she's capable of. That's what she's capable of. It's like a, is it cake episode? Oh, my god, it is.

Do you mind if I do die? I'm standing here. So you did that one. Wait, I want to ask you about your children's book. Well, yeah, peanut. They're only bandin' like seven counties, and I want to talk about that. So peanut goes for gold is about a guinea pig. It's for the gold.

I know, but yeah, peanut goes for the gold. There's like a little non-binary rhythmic gymnast, guinea pig. And this book was banned. And... Well, they voted to be on it in St. John's Florida, but I think it didn't make it. Well, consider the source. Yeah.

But I think it has been caught up in a few book bad sounds, actually. Right, right, right. Just the peanut uses they then pronouns. So we never talk about it. I just gave them they then pronoun. We never talk about it. Right, right, right.

They have great clothes. I've got this thing really embarrassing and truthful. And OK, so you're just talking about this like really important thing. Like that whole time. Yeah. About this like play, being banned, like you know, banning, we're fucking being books,

we're being plays out in these fucking streets. Yeah. All I could think about was how good that cheesecake was the whole time. And also between my martini and the cheesecake, like is that why all these like white women don't care about trans rights and gay rights and stuff? Cause like, we're just like out here eating cheese

kicking the martinis and you're just like, we're like, maybe. Cause like literally it wasn't hitting me with the same severity, like after one martini and like that cheesecake, I was like, could it be that bad? Like, maybe that's all we needed. Cheesecake, you'll be fine.

Like go open a gay only school and do your fucking play there. Like, I'm like, who am I? Like I would share, like, I think that's all we need. Make a fucking cheesecake, you'll be fine. Like go open a gate only school and do your fucking play there. Like, who am I? Like, I think that's what it is. I think, and you know what it is, too. I learned from this neuroscientist, she's like a brain scientist. If we don't get the right sleep, we can't learn new stuff in alcohol,

a texture sleep, so I probably just crazy. Yeah. At this point, I'm probably just, I don't even know. I'm so concerned. We're all like, we're just, we're not getting the right leap. Wait, I totally lost my trip to Tha'am. No idea where to go now.

Do we have the most fun of all time? Of course we did. I knew this would be a ball. I mean, I had the most fun all time. [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ Dinner's on me is a production of neon hum media, Sony Music Entertainment, and a kid named Beckett Productions.

It's hosted by Yours Truly. It's executive produced by me and Jonathan Hirsch. Our showrunner is Joanna Clay. Chloe Chobal is our associate producer, Sam Bear, engineered this episode. Hans Dail Shee composed our theme music. Our head of production is Sammy Allison. Special thanks to Alexis Martinez and Justin Makita.

I'm Jesse Tyler Ferguson. Join me next week. [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ OUTRO