Duncan Trussell Family Hour - 495: Nora McInerny

Episode Date: March 5, 2022

Nora McInerny, spokesperson for healthy grief and host of Terrible, Thanks For Asking, joins the DTFH! You can learn more about Nora on her website, NoraBorealis.com, check out Terrible, Thanks For Asking, and read some of her books! It's Okay to Laugh (Crying Is Cool Too), No Happy Endings, The Hot Young Widows Club, and Bad Moms are available everywhere you get your books. Original music by Aaron Michael Goldberg. This episode is brought to you by: ZipRecruiter - Try for FREE at ZipRecruiter.com/Duncan Trade Coffee - Visit DrinkTrade.com/Duncan for $20 Off your first THREE BAGS of coffee! Feals - Visit feals.com/duncan and get 50% off and FREE shipping on your first order.

Caregivers, are you and the person you care for not satisfied with your current home care agency? Then you need to give help at home a call, as we offer the highest paid wages, weekly pay, overtime pay, benefits, and do not forget pay time off. Yeah, I said it, pay time off. We make changing agencies quick and easy. Call one of our care professionals now at 215-515-7062. That's 215-515-7062 or go to helpathomepa.com. The profit bow before the age. That was Jellyfish Exchange by Blair Davis, Tampson Hanley, Leroy French, Gary Timon, and of course Sanders Kamley. Together they make the Old Town Country Jugbound Space Gospel Life

Orchestra and you can find them at the Old Town Jugbound Life Band Space Orchestra assemblage.org. I like you and I want you to like me and today's guest, Nora McKinnerney. She's a spokesperson for Healthy Grief with a wonderful podcast called Terrible. Thanks for asking and also some awesome books. Most recently, it's okay to laugh, crying is cool too, which you should read. We're going to jump right into this podcast, but first, some quick business. This episode of the DTFH has been supported by Zipper Cruder and they want you to know according to the latest research, 90% of employers plan to make enhancing the employee experience a top priority in 2022. After all, happy workplace is key to attracting and keeping

great employees. Isn't that wonderful? You know things are changing when the number one recruitment service in the world, Zipper Cruder, is putting that in an ad. Employees have been quitting. They're not human sponges. You can't squeeze their life energy out of them like you're some kind of cemetery litch, sucking the life juice out of some unfortunate who got lost in your graveyard. This is the future friends and in this beautiful era, employees get treated with respect and Zipper Cruder is going to help you find some great employees because it uses a powerful technology to find and match the right candidates up with your job. Then it proactively presents these candidates to you. You can review these recommended candidates and invite your top choices

to apply for your job, which encourages them to apply faster. No wonder Zipper Cruder is the number one rated hiring site in the US based on G2 ratings. Zipper Cruder's technology is so effective that four out of five employers who post on Zipper Cruder get a quality candidate within the first day. Find the right employee for your workspace with Zipper Cruder. Try it for free at zippercruder.com slash Duncan. That's zippercruder.com slash Duncan. Zipper Cruder, the smartest way to hire. And we are back friends. I got some dates to announce. I'm going back out on the road and if you are in Tacoma, Washington, March 10th, 11th or 12th, come see me at the Tacoma Comedy Club. March 31st, I'm going to be in Portland at the Helium

Comedy Club. I'm headed back to Austin, April 15th and April 16th, May 12th through the 14th. I'm going to be in Phoenix at Copper Blues Live and there's more dates coming down the line, including the Denver Comedy Works. Keep your eyes peeled. If you're at any of those places and want to come watch them stand up, go to duckatrustle.com. The ticket links are all there. Also, if you would like to join a hive of sentient wizards and sorceresses, head over to patreon.com forward slash DTFH and sign up for the DTFH Patreon. You can join us generally twice a week for our meditation, our family gathering. We make things together. We are on the precipice of publishing our book of erotic cryptid short stories. You'll be able

to buy that on Amazon. And if you join our tribe, then you can participate in the next book that we are going to create together. That's patreon.com forward slash DTFH. And now everybody, please welcome to the Duncan Trussell family, our podcast, the unforgettable Nora McKinnerney. Welcome to the DTFH. Thank you so much for being here. It is a pleasure to be here. I thought we could kick it off with me asking if you could describe to me the difference between clean pain and dirty pain. Oh, I have discovered after writing that first book, it's okay to laugh crying is cool too. Yeah, where I talk about that topic. That really the person who explained it to me had gotten it from, you know, probably a psychology

book or something else that they had read, but I was just not in the space to take on any information, right? Right. And so I thought he was just explaining it to me and it was his own concept. And I have not read her book, but I think it's in one of the Brené Brown books that she goes into that much deeper than I ever could. But the way that this concept was explained to me was in truly the weeks after my husband Aaron died, and I was having lunch with an old coworker. And he could tell that we did not know each other that intimately that I was unwell, not in just the way that, you know, any person would be after they watch their husband die slowly in front of them, but that I was just so bogged down. And what had happened in those weeks after Aaron died was then

I just started to question everything, like had I been a good wife, had I made the right medical decisions with and for him? And this coworker looked at me and said, you know, clean pain is the pain of what happened, right? It's the pain of losing Aaron in this example of losing a job, of losing, you know, your safety, your security, whatever that, that initial pain is, and dirty pain is when we sort of rub dirt in it, right? It's the pushing of the bruise, it's sort of twisting the kaleidoscope to see like, well, maybe, maybe this is my fault, you know, maybe I could just ruminate on this and make it worse somehow. And that interaction was, you know, impactful enough that I wrote about it in my first book, but is really, I think,

something that I have struggled with as a naturally anxious person, as a person who wants really badly to be good and to be liked and a person who, you know, was not, has not developed or until her late 30s, really clinging on at 39 here, like any sense of self-compassion and the fact that, you know, we do the best we can with what we have in the moment and that it's okay to forgive yourself for very, very human mistakes. Right. Are you cultivating this self-compassion? It's gotten better, right? It's gotten better. I'm still working on it. I had an interaction with a therapist who I started seeing two years ago who in one of our first sessions said to me, it doesn't appear to me that you have a lot of self-compassion. And I was like, yeah,

Doe, why would I? Like, have you met me? Come on. Like, you know, I'm a person who thought that engineering majors were learning how to drive trains until she was in her 20s. So, like, does that sound like a person who deserves compassion? Does it, Alan, the name of my therapist? Yeah, it's something that I have absolutely had to learn and had to cultivate and still am working on. Why is it so hard? Why? Why is of all the things being compassionate to yourself, something that is so difficult? I think about it all the time. In Buddhism, it's the first thing. It's before any of the other bullshit you, how are you going to be compassionate to other people? If you can't be compassionate to the thing you're closest to

on the planet. Yeah. And so, but what's your theory on that? Why would it be so hard for us to be compassionate to ourselves or to love ourselves? I've dabbled, right? I've dabbled in Buddhism. I've got a whole, I've got every book Pema Children has ever read right over there. Just over my shoulder and every time I read a single word of hers or even better, listen to her on audio. The best. My favorite. I just finished, what was her book? Oh my God. The one on the low, the low Zhang saying anyway, I love her voice. I love her voice and I love that. You know, some of these recordings are from the 80s where she's just speaking to a group of people and she's speaking in complete paragraphs and they just

turned it into an audio book because they could and it needed basically no editing. And every time I listened to her, I think, huh, where's that been all my life? Yes. Where has that been all my life? And I was raised Catholic and we in Christianity, we do learn to love other people. And I do think as an adult, I was told, oh, like God loves you too. As a kid, I don't know if that ever got to me. I don't know if that messaging ever really sunk in to me. It was more, you know, a lot of thinking about the things that I had done wrong and how could I ask forgiveness for them? And I remember this interaction with a religious leader when we were in middle school at, did you ever go to youth group? Were you were you raised? Yeah, I hear in there. Not I was raised

Episcopalian and we did have youth groups. Yes, Episcopalian. So, you know, it's like similar to Catholicism, but like it's the Diet Coke to Coke, you know, exactly. It's so similar. It's Catholic light. It's lighter. We get divorced. Yes. Yeah. Yeah. So much, so much freedom. And so youth group was a, I mean, it was just such an intoxicating environment, right? Because you're you're young, you're around other adolescents, which is invigorating. And maybe some of them even went to different schools. So they're like fresh and new and you don't really know each other. Yeah. And, you know, you're in a basement with a couple stinky plaid couches. Maybe they're going to order some dominoes later. Yeah. You don't know. There might be some Mountain Dew

in the situation. Yeah. And I remember being told that to God, all sins are the same. So he's, he is looking down at a checkerboard. So it doesn't matter if you got kinged or not. All sins are the same to God. And I remember being like, man, oh man. So me being like, me and my brother, same as a murder. That's interesting. You know, just being like, oh, all the same. Wow. Wow. So, you know, being like, being rude to, being rude to a person, you know, disrespecting my parents, all the same in God's eyes. All he sees is your dirty little sins. And I don't know why that stuck with me. I actually just sort of remember that in the process of, you know, writing my next book. And I also, I don't want to blame it all on

organized religion. I think when you're trying to figure out why you believe the things you believe or why you are the way you are, we are just this unknowable recipe. Who knows what got tapped in there at what point what got swirled into our beliefs and, and made us think and feel the way that we do. But I am also a person who was, you know, my, my drug of choice growing up was perfectionism and performance. And you also strike me as a kid who might have gotten pulled into like a gifted and talented program. Yeah. Until I, until I met my, my parents thought I was actually disabled and then they got me an IQ test and I did great. And then they immediately put me in like one of these advanced programs and I was immediately kicked out because I had behavior issues.

Yeah. And I had ADHD this whole time and I had no idea. I just thought everybody's brain was like chaotic and like, Oh, no, no, no, I'm already on to the next thing. I've got this other idea and, and, and I have to blurt it out right now because I just have to, I have to, you have to know this thing. Yes. And, and, but I was, you know, sort of shunted into a gifted and talented program really, really got all of my love and validation from performing, right? From doing a good job at things. And so any sort of chip to that armor feels like a failure or feels, you know, like an aberration. Just if, if you are what you do and what you do is imperfect or, or wrong or hurts another person, well, then, you know, you're, you're a piece of crap right away. It's a,

it's that the, it is a fickle gas. It really is the, the sort of validation of other people. We got a great new sponsor, friends. Trade coffee. You know that 90% of coffee from the grocery store is actually stale? You heard it right. 90%. You've been drinking old stale bean juice. If you've been drinking coffee that you bought at a grocery store, instead of rebuying the same old, same old, let trade copies and do something freshly roasted that you're literally guaranteed to love. Trade sells the freshest roasted and ethically sourced beans from America's best independent roasters. They ship free to you as often as you like, whole or ground. Whether you're a coffee nerd or just want a better daily cup trades, real coffee experts,

taste test over 400 roasts and use technology to match you to your ideal coffee based on your preferences and brewing method. Take the coffee quiz to get started. Trade coffee guarantees you'll love your first bag or they'll replace it for free. Trade has been featured by the New York Times, Wired, GQ and has delivered over 5 million bags of coffee. Their subscription is no hassle, sip shipments, change your frequency or you can cancel anytime you want. At least try their coffee quiz. It's really cool. I'm sort of a coffee illiterate and just doing the coffee quiz actually helped me dial in what kind of coffee I like. And then of course they connected me to some kind of deep inner sanctum level coffee that I'd never heard of before that they sent to me.

It's wonderful. For right now, Trade Coffee is offering a total of $20 off your first three bags. When you go to drinktrad.com forward slash Duncan, that's more than 16 free cups of coffee. To get started, take their quiz at drinktrad.com forward slash Duncan and start your journey to your perfect cup. That's drinktrad.com forward slash Duncan for $20 off your first three bags. Thank you, Trade Coffee. It is a fickle gas. It really is the sort of validation of other people. You know what I caught myself doing today? I caught myself looking at myself in the mirror with my shirt up and going, you stupid fat fuck. And that was like an autopilot.

That's my autopilot. I caught myself because of this Buddhism stuff. I was like, that's holy shit. What are you doing insulting yourself to the mirror? And how often are you doing that? And you're not catching it. It's so deep. In some forms of Christianity, there is this, I remember like weirdly getting off watching the scarlet letter they showed in school when the guy's whipping his back and being like, whoa, it's kind of awesome. But that is kind of tied in to Christianity, right? You know, the self-legulation. And we can do it in so many ways now. We don't have to whip ourselves with a chain or a piece of leather. Like what we can do instead is we can look in the mirror and then compare ourselves and how we appear to how we

think we should or how someone else does. Or I can get on my phone and immediately destroy any love I have for myself or my life by just a few scrawls. And then all of a sudden I'm like, actually, I want to burn my house down. I'm going to burn my house down. That's what I'm going to do, okay? Because I do not. My kitchen counters are not like that, and they are not clean. Well, this is bullshit. I'm sorry to cut you off. But this is, to me, I feel like in the future, they're going to look back and be like, well, that's illegal now. Like if you, you can't post your bullshit on social media unless it's real, you know, and like you can't do that because you're just hurting. It's a weird form of attacking the world by posing as though you're doing great.

And then, you know, my wife and I, we've been through rough times where we have had to go to marriage counseling and we're much better. But, you know, sometimes a picture of us would show up on social media. We're so happy and people are like, dream couple. And I'm like, no, you don't quite understand the full picture. It's, you know, it's dead. And it's, I didn't mean to hurt anybody, but I think we need to figure out a way to balance it out somehow. So we're not tricking people into imagining that everything's great. And that's kind of what your show's about, right? Yeah. Yeah. And part of it too is tricking ourselves too. And the reason that the show is called Terrible Things for Asking is because I was such a good liar. I was such a good liar and

most of us are Duncan. Like if I, no matter what happened before this phone call, if you would, you know, if I asked you at the beginning, like, how are you, what would you have said? Great. Great. You're great. You're great. You're great. You're great. And it doesn't really matter. I'm going to move this. I don't know why the glare in my glasses is driving me absolute bananas. And I can't hide myself view on this. And it's just, if you click, I figured out how to do that. If you click the, if you click on my square on the upper right hand corner, it will expand the frame. Perfect. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. And you won't have to be tormented. Like it's so distracting. Yes. It's like, when I have to do a video call like this,

I am immediately reminded of, have you ever FaceTimed like a toddler or a little kid? Yeah. They are just like, uh, like just, just, just drawn into this, their own image. Yes. Like narcissists, they're ready to fall into the screen. They love it. They love it. Like my, my kid used to like, basically like French to the phone to get to his own face. Just so excited to see himself. And that's what I become. I'm just, uh, but yeah, you would have said you were fine if I asked, you would have said you were fine, no matter what. And I mean, you know, there's a reason for that, right? We all belong in a, participate in a social contract where like, you know, the checkout person at Target does not get paid to hear the truth about your marriage.

You know, like, when they ask, you are allowed to lie to them. You are allowed to be like, pretty good. Thanks for asking. So weird. Yeah, you're right. Yeah. But we do it to everyone. Like we do it to everyone. Um, or at least I did. And I did that after Aaron died and Aaron died after my dad died and my dad died five days after I had a miscarriage. And it was just, I wanted to be fine for other people. And I also wanted to be fine for myself because I didn't want anyone to pity me or feel bad for me or feel like they needed to take care of me. And I also thought if I can just fake it someday, I will have make it. And I will be, I will be the genius who figures out how not to actually be sad. That's what, that's what I will accomplish.

You're right. Yeah. You know, wow. Yeah. Please continue. Yeah. Oh, I failed. I failed. And I would get messages from other widows or people who were going through hard things saying like, I wish I was doing better. I wish I was doing like, like you're doing like how I was doing off screen, right? Off Instagram, off of, you know, a blog or Facebook or whatever, out of outside of interactions at a brunch with friends was so, so poorly, so poorly. And I had gotten thousands of emails after Aaron died. We wrote his obituary and we revealed his identity as Spider-Man and that obituary went viral. And I got so many messages from people who were going through or had been through something really, really hard, who were just

spilling their guts to me, a complete stranger on the internet, Duncan, a complete stranger, because the people around them had stopped asking or maybe never asked or maybe they just didn't feel like they could be honest with the people around them. And I started to feel like, what do I do with this? What do I do with this? And that is literally how the podcast started, was me wishing that I would have said to everybody at the funeral, I'm terrible, thanks for asking. Amazing. And that, the, the, I love it. I love what the title of one of your books is, The Hot Young Widows Club, having experienced my own loss in life. And I realized, oh, this is like a club or a secret society or something where I'm one of the people who no

longer can live in a world where I'm immortal and the people around me are immortal and everything just keeps going and everything's fine. I now am one of the people who's, you know, weird glass bubble of delusion and fantasy that I built around me has just been smashed by a meteor. And we all get together and we talk because we know, holy fuck, it goes bad fast. It goes bad fast. Like you don't even, you can't, like within two days, you know, you're suddenly like in one phone call and you're at the hospital with your husband. The way that you're able to write about this for people who are in the club is just so cathartic and like it's so healing. But suddenly there you are. You know, when I got testicular cancer, I was suddenly in the hospital

after like having done a brain scan because maybe it's in your brain and, but we don't know yet, but we're going to have to scan you'll hear in a few days. But I remember calling someone I was dating me like, are you cool dating someone with cancer? Because you're trying to make it make sense. But yeah, it's a secret society. It's a club and you have become a spokesperson. Someone who's like the jump on in the water is fine. Yeah, four easy payments of horrible pain and agony and moments of light. You too could join this club and the price is high. The price of admission is high. It is non-negotiable. Oh my God. And the benefits are very few. But everybody joins it eventually. What are the benefits? Yeah, I mean, occasionally, and you only get to play it, you

know, once or twice, sometimes more, you can play that card, right? You can just be like kaboom, right? Like, you know, like, you know, Aaron never wanted to play the card. And at one point in time, we had this dog. She was so shaggy and she had gotten into like, you know, there'd been a thaw, like a winter, early winter thaw and she was out in the yard just getting just disgusting. And we didn't have a bathtub. We could not bathe this dog. I tried to get her in for like a grooming appointment. They didn't have anything. I was like, yeah, the thing is like, her dad has cancer. And we did get an appointment Duncan and Aaron was like, Oh, yeah, you said, I was like, we had to get this dog needed. You deserved it. We deserved it. You deserved it.

If that's the only benefit we get, that's the benefit we get. Okay, I will cash that card in. I got to tell you, this is we're in such a backwards ass society that that is there should actually be fucking cards. I mean, we've got handicap parking, right? And I get that, obviously. But what about the other like all the people who are you're passing in the grocery store and maybe you're thinking yourself, what, that guy looks like he's in a bad fucking mood. You don't know what just happened to that person. And you have no idea why they're like that. And and so we need these cards in real life. We need these people deserve to get to the front of the line. Are you still there? You froze up. There we go. Well, exactly. See, that's what happens. Not

just podcasts, but in actual reality. And yeah, you know, isn't that a bit isn't aside from the grief card or cancer card, isn't one of the benefits that you actually are living in the truth all of a sudden, not in some rosy way, but isn't that a benefit that you're living in the real world versus whatever you thought it was. And that you're living so presently, which is, you know, even when the present is terrible, it's still the best place to be. And I found this almost sort of, I never know if it's prescient. Is that the way to pronounce the word? You probably pronounce words that you don't know how to say, but I do it all the time.

Okay. But yeah, so I found this piece of writing for some reason today. I was like, today is a day where, you know, we're speaking at 11 a.m. my time, which is like, such a, such a, what am I going to do something before 11 a.m. if I have to stop by 11 a.m. No, no, no, it just makes everything before then just not usable time for some reason for me, mentally. So I, I decided I had to clean out my Google drive. Why? It's, it's like unlimited search, but you know, get in there. And I found, I found this writing that I had done when I met Aaron and before, truly weeks before he had a seizure. And it's all about how the present moment is the best place to be, even if it's difficult as if some part of me knew that something

was coming, which of course I didn't. Not in a million years could I have guessed that, you know, that, that I would be getting a phone call at work that Aaron had had a seizure and that we would be at the hospital and being told that he had a brain tumor and still like crossing our fingers that, you know, it's no big deal. People have brain tumors all the time. It could be anything. And then finding out he had brain cancer. And in this essay that I had written, I'm saying, you know, oh, I'm the most present that I've ever been. And I've been present for things that I never noticed before. And love can do that for you, right? Like joy can do that for you. And so can grief. So can sorrow. It's, it's most of our lives are truly forgettable.

The bad, like what did you have for lunch two days ago? No idea. No idea. No, no, no, no, no. Like what were you doing at 1148 yesterday? No idea. I mean, I could probably dig it up, but it would take time. It would take time. You'd be like, huh, guess, yeah, maybe I was just sort of standing in the kitchen trying to debate if I should have another cup of coffee or move into lunch. I don't know. It's most of life is just so mundane. And that's wonderful. Like that is, it really is. It really is. But when you're in either of those sort of heightened states, either in, you know, at a very high, high or a low, low, you're so attuned to the ordinary that it feels extraordinary.

I want to thank feels for supporting the DTFH. My loves. I slept like an angel last night. Thanks to feels. Feels it's premium CBD that will help to keep your head clear and feel your best. It's hassle free. Deliver directly to your door. CBD naturally helps reduce stress, anxiety, pain and sleeplessness. There's no hangover or addiction. I love feels. They have a new mint that I chomp at night and fall as sleep as though the sweet baby Jesus had just kissed me on my sleeping button. They also have a wonderful liquid CBD. It's like something out of JRR Tolkien, something that elves would drink. You just place a few drops of feels under your tongue and you feel the difference within minutes. The thing to remember about CBD is that finding

your right dose is important. So feels offers a free CBD hotline to help guide your personal experience so that you find your perfect dose. Joining the feels monthly membership makes yourself care easy. You'll save money on every order. You can pause or cancel at any time. Start feeling better with feels. Become a member today by going to feels.com slash family hour and you'll get 50% off your first order with free shipping. That's F E A L S dot com slash family hour to become a member and get 50% automatically taken off your first order with free shipping when you're in either of those sort of heightened states, either in, you know, at a very high, or a low, low, you're so attuned to the ordinary that it feels extraordinary.

Yes. Well, I mean, when that's in your situation, you suddenly there was this clock, you know, when you're when you're someone you love as cancer, a clock just appears out of the out of the out of the horror, this fucking, and I'm reading your writing about I did the same thing with my mom. I would try to negotiate with it. I would imagine that I could talk to the cancer and be like, you know, do you really have to kill my mom? Like, isn't there a way to sort of, you know, back off just a little bit? It is my mom, you know, and I am special. And so is she, you know, as opposed to all the other people dying of cancer out there. All those other moms are like, my mom worth saving worth skipping. I would skip this one. As far as a host goes,

you get a latch on to literally anyone else. Not this one, not this one. Not this one. This is a good mom. And did you you find yourself in this very strange, imaginary conversation with that clock? And it's just, I mean, I know you write about this, but when I think about what you went through, it's just not okay. Like, you know, like it's not okay. That's that series of events bundled into that time period. How does, how do you defend? And now I have a Chihuahua barking in the background. It's like, haven't I been through enough? Okay. We have so much in common. I too had a Chihuahua post my experience with these things, always barking and barking, always barking. It's good.

And such a stereotype. I'm like, that's the mailman. That's the mailman. He's doing his job. He's bringing you medication because you have a, you know, a problem. Okay. And it's not just the barking. Yeah, which yeah, I can do anything. And yet, then the dog barks. I'm like, Now, while I'm recording, must you? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. The things that break me will be like, you know, and I just think about my, my grandfather surviving the depression, you know, somehow, you know, bringing nine kids through it, making sure they were fed and clothed. And then, you know, two generations later, I'm ready to cry because my right air pod won't connect. And I'm sure my soft little hands that have never, you know, fit a pipe in my life. And, and now I'm like,

but it's so hard, Grandpa. But thank you for saying that, Duncan. I feel that way every time I meet anybody, anytime I hear anybody's story, I feel the exact same way. I'm like, Oh, no, no, no, no, no. And, and, and I have friends who, you know, have already, they've, their punch card should be filled. Yeah. It's, it's, it's absolutely indisputably unfair and not right that people have to go through any of this. We're talking like the day after Russia invades the Ukraine. And I'm thinking, seriously, this is how far we've come is basically no far. And people are still willing to inflict massive amounts of pain on one another, willingly in the name of what power and it's also bleeding. And you want to just take these world leaders that

sit them down like they're bad little boys and say like someday you will be dead and none of this will matter. Right? Like you know, wow. And that day is tomorrow. And that day is tomorrow. Because that's why we have these guillotines in the room that we sat you down with little boys because we're going to cut your heads off and everything will get better right away because this is what we used to do to people like you. Sorry, that's a part of me. I don't, I don't want to decapitate the world leaders. We don't want to, but it's like, and I'm not trying to like minimize it. It's like you want to like, you want to shake people who don't get it and be like, don't you understand? Don't you understand? We are here for a moment for like an absolute blip. And it's

just like, what are you, what are you doing any of this for? And by the way, I want to shake myself for all the times because obviously going through my Google drive, do you think I was reminded of just my best moments? No, the worst moments too are all archived. Like all the times that I was petty or jealous or just downright unhinged are also there. And I want to shake my former self and say, just shut up. Right. Who cares? Be here. You're fine. Right. Right. You're here. And, but tell me a little bit. I mean, your, your concept of what here is, what the, what the present moment really is. I know you have a, I think you have tattooed on your wrist. I do. Yeah. May I see it? I read about this. I think this is like the first,

this is the first tattoo I got that wasn't like horrible. Oh God. Okay. Oh, I can't see it through Riverside. It's too blurry, but oh, I see. Okay. Cool. And it's also like at a point in my arm, it's at a point in my arm. I hadn't owned a watch yet. So I, you know, I got it like right where a watch would hit. It's just, it doesn't really make sense. But also I think I was afraid my dad would be mad and he would have been. And I, and he couldn't know, he couldn't know that his 28 year old daughter got a tattoo underage. You know, I just, who would do such a thing? Who would get a tattoo? Do it. I always sort of misunderstood mindfulness as, you know, oh, something I just have to do for 10 minutes a day and I can set an app and, and, and they, and take it off and great.

I did it. And what a discovery to find through Pema children. Oh no, I lost you again. And this, that's why the topic of today's episode is why podcasts should be recorded on cause that tapes nailed back and forth. I love that idea. For those of you out there, what's happening is we've got a little bit of a connectivity issue, but I think that's great because we're talking about impermanence and we're talking about the, you know, that the reality of, you know, not being able to control anything and control anything. And to get back to the question I asked, if you have, I'm sorry, it's a, I've tried to define it and it's hard for me, but how do you define the present moment? Oh, I mean, wherever my feet are. And that is hard for me because I

really, really, really do love to sort of like tiptoe back into the past and play with things, see what I could have done or said differently. I love to sort of peek into the future and just decide if I could try on a new worry, just wear it in a little bit, break it in so that when and if that moment arrives, I'm prepared. I've already imagined it. And what I have realized from that first moment that Aaron was diagnosed, I did exactly that. I remember just going into my brain right to his funeral, right to the very worst case scenario. And I can tell you that that thought exercise prepared me not at all, not one bit, not one single bit for night and for the funeral, not for the three years that we would have together. And all it really did was

take me out of one of the moments that we had together, which was the night we got engaged was the night he was diagnosed. And I spent, you know, it might have only been two minutes or five minutes, but I spent any amount of minutes just imagining a future that was completely out of my control. Yes. As if it was somehow helping. Right. Well, it's a dream. I mean, I would think that that maybe I could control the future by having like fantasies of a future where my mom wasn't going to die of cancer. Yeah, definitely didn't work. Yeah. And yeah, we have a lot of interesting parallels. My wife's name is Aaron. When I, at some point, I don't know why I decided to start volunteering at hospice and I wasn't ready

really for what I was doing. I didn't even know it was hubris that got me in it more than anything. And, but I remember the first home visit I did, it was a couple and her husband had brain cancer that had, you know, sort of spread in all through his head and out of his head and he'd been setting things on fire accidentally, forgetting to turn the oven off and stuff. And I remember the rabbits and they had rabbits and she's crying, who will take care of the rabbits? And I'm standing there just in the midst of someone else's nightmare, completely not prepared. And then he comes out of the room and has the most beautiful smile and he goes, hi, how are you? And I'm like, I'm okay. How are you? And he's like, bad. Hard to say. You know, I remember

they, the ambulance took him to the hospice and I remember the way he waved and seeing that present moment in him, he was glowing with the present moment, fully in the moment as wretched as it was, still emanating this field that, you know, I've seen in like people like Ram Dass and stuff, but also in dying people this thing that seems to challenge all this projections, people like me put on it like, this is wretched, a nightmare, horror, when they're like, this is my life. And, you know, and, and don't just see me as this part of it. You know, and it's so easy. Somebody just becomes the way they died. And like, was your mom cancer? No. If I asked you about your mom, would you say, not cancer? No.

No. No, but it does, it does overshoot, you know, going through those, for me, it was four years for you, three years, three years of, of a shadow of some kind of shadow, at least that's my own personal experience, three years of being in the shadow of this imminent death. I don't know if I'll ever be better after that. I'm fine. You know what I mean? As in the sense of like, I'm not like, I don't think the world's an evil place or anything like that. But I don't know how you, how you just, you'll never, you don't, and you'll never be that version of yourself. And we're not meant to be, you know, we're not sort of these immutable figures who, you know, have these experiences, experiences just sort of glance off of them,

right? We are not impervious, like we are meant to be transformed by things. And so no, you won't be the same Duncan, you'll be this version of Duncan, who did sit with his mom while she was sick and, and, and did stay present for those, you know, horrible moments. And I think about that often. I think about that, that often. That a person is, of course, more than the worst thing that happened to them or the way that they died. And also, you're not going to be unaffected by it. We watched when Aaron was sick, I'd never seen Dexter. And it had concluded by that time, I'm pretty sure. Like, it was, or there were at least five seasons. And I remember just being on the edge of my seat for the first season, he was

like, there are more seasons, so he will make it through. It's not a spoiler. He's absolutely not going to die or get caught in the first three episodes. And I was like, Oh, I don't know though, how will he get out of this pickle? He's really doesn't know. And there's this season, I couldn't tell you where it is, where he describes, you know, his sociopathy or his, you know, his, his needing to be a murderer, that as a dark passenger, right. And I remember relating so much to that. I remember relating so much to prison shows like locked up. I remember relating to the Walking Dead, relating to anything where things are out of the protagonist's control. And there's just this sort of dark menacing presence. And still what do they want to live,

right? In the face of a zombie apocalypse, where, you know, even your closest family members are turned into monsters who want to eat you alive. The characters in the Walking Dead still want to be here. They still want to be on this earth. And I watched so many things like that. Oh, my God, I'm just, you're blowing my mind because when my, that was like, I really got into the Walking Dead, the comics. Yes, yes, yes. And I never made the connection. Of course, it's like, yeah, because the, especially the comics are like, they're amazing. Yeah, I hate to be one of those people, but it's true. It's like, when people are like, I love this show, I'm like, well, have you, have you read the comics?

We're the comics because it makes this show look like Mr. Rogers. Truly. Compared to the comics. Truly. Because no one that I'm aware of up until that point, and really, you know, you see a zombie movie, there's almost a kind of fun to shooting the zombies. And yeah, all my family's dead, whatever. But the Walking Dead was like, oh no, everyone's going to go crazy. People are going to be crushed by the collapse of the world as they knew it. It is, it's felt grief. Locked up, bro.

Oh, God, it's so into locked up too. I don't watch it anymore. No, no, no, I can't do it. Yeah. Now I don't want to watch anything with even like a hint of suspense or darkness to it. We watched Yellow Jackets recently and I had to talk through the whole thing. I had to talk through the entire fricking thing and be like, oh, oh, oh, I had that sweater vest. Oh, um, you know. Right. Yeah, yeah. That was pretty, that Yellow Jackets is pretty fucked up. And yeah, I just that world that we used to live in.

Is it a bad world? Is it, is, is that a silly world or something versus the world that we're in now subjectively? Obviously, we're all sharing the same world. But when I look back to before I had cancer and before my mom died and my dad died, I kind of see someone who was really a little like insensitive and sort of not the best, not what I would consider to be the best person. Yeah. And I don't think everyone in that world is like that. I do think some people need the bottom to fall out for them to realize, for them to realize and to become realized. And I was always a very sensitive person. I would have, if I'd known the word empathetic, I probably would have said that, but I was always very, very attuned to the suffering of people

around me. I think, you know, when you're raised by an alcoholic, you're sort of raised to take the temperature of a room and want to regulate it, which is something you only learn in adulthood and not childhood. So I can see all of these patterns and behaviors that I was only shaken out of by those losses. And I don't miss that version of myself. I don't miss the before version of myself. I really don't. But I do have more compassion for her because she didn't know what she didn't know. And she was doing her best. But before my dad died, one of my best friends from growing up, his dad died. And I was in my late 20s. And I was like, wow, that's really sad, man, I've known this guy since I was a kid. And oh, my friend's dad is

dead now. And I went to the funeral and I sent him a card. Maybe I dropped off a hot dish. And then I never brought his dad up again. Never. Never, never, never. I wouldn't even bring up my dad in front of him. Like I just pretended dads weren't a thing around him. So I never even gave him space to not be okay. Never gave him the opportunity to be honest with me. And I did not even realize that until the minute my dad died. And he was the first person I wanted to call to say, I can't believe you've lived like this for five years. How, how have you lived like this for five years? How? And he was like, wait, what's happening? I was like, Oh, my dad just died. But no, no, we'll talk about that later. Tell me about your dad. How you feel? Like, just, you just don't

know. You don't know until you know. That's right. Yeah, that's, that's right. And I know, I get the whole, you know, you're doing your best and all that. And I, some part of me is, for, you know, doesn't feel guilty, but not all of me. I, it's a, I do see it almost as it's something that's helped me believe in reincarnation. Because, you know, as above so below, it's almost like that was a different life altogether with a whole different set of conditions that many of them were, I thought were permanent, you know, and now this is a new life. And also because, you know, of my age and just the way the world is, sometimes I feel like I'm, I'm just in some kind of dream. And that, you know, Pima Chodron's teacher, Chogyam Trumper Rinpoche, who's my meditation

teacher's teacher said, it's when you get old enough, your people just are dropping like flies. You know what I mean? Like, and, and, and that. So I know in in store for me is more of the same. Yes. And doesn't it make you want to look at the surviving elderly people, you know, and think, and ask like, how are you, how are you doing this? How, how, how, how, how, how are you living without your best friends and your siblings and your parents? Like just, I just have so, I want to like go back in time and like hold my grandma through those losses, you know? Yeah. Oh yeah. Do you think that our cult that do you think our culture is like, illiterate when it comes to grief? Oh, absolutely. It's like, look at, I tell everybody who has a

job, like, you know, go look at your benefits because when I was, I was employed when my dad died when Aaron died. And it's, I was given title to, I think three days of bereavement leave. Unreal. So, you know, not great. And that's if you are a full time, you know, salaried employee with benefits, maybe you'll have a manager who will, you know, tell you like, don't worry about it, come back when you're ready. But like, do they really mean when you're ready? Or do they mean a couple of weeks? Right? A couple of weeks. They mean a couple of weeks. They mean a couple of weeks. We're going to be ready in a couple of weeks. We don't have three weeks.

We don't have three weeks. I gotta hire someone in three weeks. Yeah. Gotta get the shit taken care of. Yeah. And so we don't, and because, you know, and also like we're so removed from like the actual deaths themselves. If you were, were you with your parents when they died? No, I was not. Both of them. I missed the moment of death. I was there almost, I missed the, I missed the moment of death. One of the many things I feel guilty about. Don't, because honestly, our dad waited till we left the room, you know, like, and, and that was like, I feel like it was intense. It was an intentional exit and Aaron made everyone else leave the house. Like I just knew he would not go until everybody left the house and

it was just us. And now I'm going to cry, but it's like, it is so beautiful. And like it doesn't feel like a disappearance. It really doesn't. Like it has made me believe in, in something more too, because yeah, like it does feel like this transition. It feels like all of a sudden you understand everything about the universe. And it is a brief and sparkling moment. And then, you know, you have to go back to the Home Depot parking lot and you're like, mother, that's not how you park. Like, you're over the line. You're over the line. Yeah. But for a minute there, like, you got it. And you knew, like, you knew what matters. Like,

you know why wars are stupid. You know why it's dumb to, you know, hold a grudge against your coworker for, you know, seeing your boss on an email. Like, you get it. You get it for at least a minute, maybe longer. And I think that's what mindfulness is. I think that's what being present is, is like, just having that sense of like, oh, I get it. I get it. Like humans are silly, sweet, adorable little creatures, aren't we? Like just waking up, putting on our little outfits, worrying our little worries, like going to our little jobs, like, you know, collecting our little things and, um, yeah, parking over the line. At Home Depot, are you aware of how many people need shit in here? No one's here because they want to be. No one's here because they want to be.

No one is impulse shopping. No one goes to Home Depot unless there's a disaster. You're making me remember something that I've forgotten that's weirdly easy to forget, which is that magical quality to it. And which is that weird new spatiality or something, this new expanded universe and a impossible sense that this person is somehow more available to you than they were when they were embodied. And then now you have, this is why it's good to have, you know, some kind of widow's club or grief club or some people to talk to you because if you talk to the normies and you're like, you know, I know this is going to sound wild, but I feel like I can kind of still communicate with my mom here and there. They'll be like,

I know you can't. And isn't that wonderful? You're grieving. You'll have in about five days, you should come back to work though, because Roger got caught. That powerpoint is awaiting for your input. Yes, we have comments. We have comments. Did you have dreams, experiences, anything like that where you connected with Erin? Yeah, I was just telling my mom, who's actually here visiting. So maybe she can overhear this, but right after my dad died, maybe even the night that he died, it was clear that Erin was dying. It was clear to all of us. And I had this dream. We were up at a cabin. We don't own a cabin, but we were up at one. It made sense. Our whole family was together. And our dad was in a screened in porch doing a crossword

puzzle, which is absolutely socially accurate. He would do a crossword puzzle at the dinner table with us, separate from the conversation, look up, deliver our mark that showed he was listening and judging us, and then go back to it. He was out on the porch and none of us could get his attention. And we were so excited to see him. We're like, dad came, dad came, dad's up at the cabin. Like, dad's not dead. This is great. We found him. None of us can get in to look up and Erin stands up and he opens the door and he can get the door open. And my dad looks up and he sits down next to him. And I knew in the dream what it meant. And I knew that it would be okay. Like I knew, I knew like my dad like went first on purpose. Right. Because he had not been sick

as long. And I woke up just feeling like, I'm going to be okay. Because I remember when my dad got sick, I was like, Oh, no, but my dad's supposed to be here. You know, like, he's gonna die. But like, I'll have my dad and um, yeah, that dream, like brought me such peace. I feel like that dream got me through the next few weeks. And I very rarely get to actually see Erin in my dreams. But he'll be like, there, like I'll be at a party and people be like, there he is. Like, I was just talking to him. He told me the funniest story. And I'm like, having fun, but trying to get to him. And we're just like missing each other. And I had one dream where he showed up and I actually got to talk to him. And he just showed up at my friend door. And it was so normal. Like, Oh, hey, come on

in. And he's we're catching up. And we're so excited to see each other. And they realize, Oh, no, dude, I got married. Like, I'm married to this guy. We have all these kids like, Oh, God, like, what are we going to do? He's like, Oh, not a big deal. Not a big deal. He's like, we can we can all work it out. So it's good to know that my dead husband wants to be in a threple with me. Because I just had that moment in the new year. I was like, Oh, shit, dude, I didn't know you were coming back. And he's like, I get it. I get it. How could you know? But do you have dreams of your mom? Do you get to do you get to see your parents in your dreams? Yeah, I've had a few. I the best one was my dad who he like, he liked to live like by the water and he would you my dad also I believe

I was reading I couldn't tell if you meant your dad is Vietnamese or your dad went to Vietnam. Oh, went to Vietnam. Yeah. Okay, great. Okay. So mine too. Also to cope with the PTSD became an alcohol, you know, struggled with like, yeah, a lot of vets, you know, that's, they don't, especially they were so young. They were so young. My dad was 17 when he met his dad's like a permission slip to join a war. Yeah, too, too young. And really were like the ripples of all the wars. I mean, that's what we're that we're all living in the ripples of some epigenetic, horrible trauma that's anyway, that dream, my um, my um, okay, so my dad like, he was really proud of this one apartment he had that looked out over harbor. So in the dream, and my dad too nagged me like your

dad nagged you out of like some kind of love, I guess, but really exactly. Thanks for that. Do I have an eating disorder now? I don't know, maybe, but yeah, why are they so obsessed with bodies? It's so weird. Like my dad would like that shape my brothers too is so weird. I was like, they're they just have like regular bodies. They're literally fine. Oh, I know. And I know, bizarre, bizarre. You're drinking, you get to that point. It's time to fat shame your kids. What the fuck's wrong with you? What are you doing? Well, you have kids now. Imagine, imagine looking at one of your children being like, holy shit, you are putting on weight. What's going on there, chubby? Can you imagine being like, like someone's parent batch, like aggressively fat

shaming them? Oh, yeah, it was a it was a weird time. Any younger listeners, it was a weird time. It was a weird time. Love your body. What? No, punish it. Hate it. No, punish it. Yeah. No, he let me get on when I'm like, I think I was 14. And he let me get on slim fast. Like, I'm a 14 year old taking slim fast because I was so ashamed of my body because of this. So I'm like drinking from hungry all the time. My digestion's fucked up. I'm like, gassy and like, not losing anyway, by the way. He's like, proud of you, son. No, he made fun of me for the slim fast. What are you? What are you like in your 50s and your 50s, your housewife trying to lose some weight? It's like, motherfucker, what do you want? But I still will always love

him. And the dream, he was sort of like proud of this apartment looking over the ocean, really. I mean, oceanfront view, incredible. And he's like happy. I'm like, dang it. One thing I've learned from reading your books is that it's not okay to cry. Yeah, no, stuff it down. Yeah, good feelings are so gross. Stop having that. That's what I really appreciated you writing is the invitation to not feel pain. But he, anyway, he was like, he was basically telling me he was okay. And then he goes, oh, yeah. And two of your friends, they live, they're in the apartment above me. And I'm sure what they are, they're weird. I think they might be aliens. And then, you know, in the way dreams do,

it's these two Tibetan monks are standing like on either side of him with their hands, like on his shoulder. Oh, it was the coolest, like, whoa, who I don't, who are you to? Yeah. But the sense of like, oh, okay, I get it. Like, you're being taken wherever this is or whatever this is. Yeah. Something is helping you through it. Yeah. You know, which is you're okay. You're okay. Yeah. Do you think it? Not I don't even know if it matters. It does matter. But most people I know who have a meditation practice or they seem not like confident or have it's not like they have faith that there is some continuation of the soul or consciousness. It's like they're fully like, well, you can still talk to them. They're immediately accessible. They're somehow

outside of time or something. What do you think? Is it just some kind of, you know, subconscious wish, the denial of death, all that cynical shit? Or do you think our loved ones stick around for a while after they drop their bodies? I think they stick around. I do think they stick around. I don't think it's I don't think it's denial at all. I really do think that the soul, like whatever makes you you is so special. And maybe that is just some like latent Catholicism. But, you know, that's it's that's that's the fingerprint of who you are. That's the thing that can't be duplicated because it turns out a lot of people have the same fingerprints. Okay, they're actually not that unique. So yeah, I might have I think I just like saw part of a

TikTok about it. But that's the new I saw a tweet, which is the new like, oh, I read something. I used to say I read something and I meant I read like a tweet with like a link and didn't quite click the link. Now I mean, I glanced at a TikTok about it. This is what I do. I'm like, well, what I what I've heard a 14 year old say is that you know, that's that's the part that's that's who we are. You know, it's not just, you know, the wiring of our brains and our bodies, like there is something else. And you know that because if you've seen a dead body, you look at it and you're like, well, looks a lot like my dad. Yeah, that's not my dad. Not my dad. Not my dad anymore.

So I do think that I do think that and I don't think it's like some special third location anymore. You know, I like, I don't think like, you know, you that you get sort of like sucked up into like a heaven that is a a different location. I actually I've got a theory that like this is the bad place like we are in hell right now, what could be worse? What could be worse than this world that we live in, right? And that these moments of joy that we feel these moments of peace, these moments of mindfulness are like respite, those are glimpses into what heaven could be, like who we could be. And when you are dead, you are just in that constantly, you are in that state of peace, in that state of connected connectedness

to everything. And, you know, like when you're when you're having like a lucid dream, or when you're you know, like really deep in a meditation or where you're just really, really happy in a moment and present and and you're doing something that's seemingly meaningless, but feels so meaningful because you're out of your brain. That's how like, you know, I feel or sometimes I recognize Aaron in like hawks, there's so many hawks. Okay, there's so many hawks around there, but I'm like, Oh, there he is, just dropping into a little hawk body so you can drive next to our car circle around us on a hike, or for some reason, like perch in a tree in our backyard, you know, and everybody who has a dead loved one has the same sense, right? Like, oh, yeah, like, Oh,

wait, like some of my dad's here, right? Like somehow like, you know, my mom's here, like this, this cardinal always birds, we love birds in this. But it's a, yeah, I do think that I think that I think we, I think we stick around. And I think we're sort of surrounded at all times by, you know, the souls and the energy of people that we know and that we don't, too. I want to go back a little bit to what you said about the possibility that this is hell. And it just made me think of something my meditation teacher, David told me, there's Buddha's in all the realms in the heavenly realms in the earth plane and in the hell realms, there's beings that are in the hell realms who are just there to serve others, to try even in hell,

compassion still exists. And that's what if we are in hell, that's what you would be, wouldn't you, you are someone who is really helping people by being fully open about what happened to you and also letting people chat with you about it in a way that doesn't feel you make us feel so comfortable. How, how is it that I feel okay talking with you about your, what people you have lost, you know, sometimes other people are grieving, I'm afraid to talk about her, I don't know what to say or, but you create this wonderful space for folks. And so I think that makes you, if this is how that would make you some kind of hell Buddha, which is pretty, pretty fun. That's honestly probably the best compliment I've ever gotten.

I was trying to think of a better compliment. I don't think I've gotten one. Awesome. Hell Buddha. It's pretty special. Love being a hell Buddha. I was, as soon as she said that, I was like, I got to find me a hell Buddha. I got to find me one. I got to find me one. And you know, like, I think that's really beautiful. I'm going to go look into that more. I want to learn more about that. May I ask one last question? Oh yeah, yeah.

How is it being married, having a family, and being in this sort of throttle situation, and how does your husband, how does he work with it? But you know, it seems like I would, if I were, I think I would, you know, we can't control the way we feel. Yeah. I feel like bubbling up out of me would be a weird form of jealousy for someone who's no longer here. Does that happen at all? Probably your husband is. No, it doesn't. That's the funny thing is I assumed that would be the reality and the bummer is that is the reality for a lot of widows. It really is. And it's not just with their

new partners, but with like their, for like, you know, their dead husband or dead partners, like family, right? Like where they're just shut out. Or it's like, I think it's just this very, we have like, we have a limited amount of imagination emotionally for anything, not just for, you know, the sad things Duncan, but like for love too. And I did too. I remember growing up and being like, you know, my family was, my parents were like in love for 40 years. And, you know, I didn't know anyone with divorced parents when I met somebody who like had a step mom. I was like, Oh, like, how could you even, how could you even like, let another woman into your home when you have a mom? Like I just like love was possession, right? And it was a loyalty.

And it was like, you only get this much of it. And, and that's, that's certainly how I treated people that I dated too, right? Like we'd break up and I'd never liked him anyways. He sucks. He can breaking go to heck. I don't care. Just this is so like bizarre and toxic. And so I am lucky to have a Matthew because it's not like that. And I've asked him to and he's like, no, I don't feel jealous. I'm not excited to be dead. Which is one of my favorite jokes. My most popular TikTok was, you know, questions people ask me, like you're widowed, you're remarried, isn't your husband jealous? Yeah, he can't wait to be dead. He'd rather be dead than married to me. And I'm like, that's a dumb question. I'm sorry. I just, you know, I have grieving friends sorts

of grieving friends who do have significant others. And they do have to like, sometimes the significant others are like, what about me? I know, I know, I know, I know. Isn't it so sad? And it's like all this insecurity. And I don't know if Matthew's just more secure because, you know, he went through a divorce, which is like a whole different kind of loss. And he's just very like secure in who he is. But it's not a dumb question. Because actually, a lot of people do feel that way. And feel like sort of like threatened by the memory of another person. But to me, I feel like it's an asset. I even think it's an asset that Matthew was divorced, that he knows what it's like to be in a relationship and have to like, let it go, even though it was the only thing he'd

ever known. And they had children, you know, like, I think we learned so much from that. And to me, I would have gladly dated or married another widow, because I would look at that person and think, okay, like, you know, you know what it's like to live up to that vow that you made. And so I don't know, unfortunately, I am lucky. And I really shouldn't be like, this is the kind of love that everybody deserves. And no, he doesn't get weird about it. And like, I get I do get weird about it. Like, I, Taylor Swift was a huge part of my relationship to Erin, unironically. And she was not cool in 2010. When we met, she wasn't this when people were like, Oh, my God, so corny. Like, speak now had come out, she hadn't quite made that like pop crossover. Erin really saw her as,

you know, the songwriter of our generation. And he told me she's the Paul McCartney of our generation, like people are going to respect her. And I was like, I fully agree. I already do I am on board. So she comes out with folklore. And one of the songs is cardigan, Erin always wore cardigans. Like, obviously, she wrote that song about him. And it came out, you know, like, I can't even remember when it came out. But it came out and it felt significant. And I remember listening to that album, sobbing, and like, just, you know, Matthew, just laid there and like, let me cry and listened. And it was like, Oh, this is the music that does it for you. He likes different kinds of music. And, you know, yesterday, my mom and Erin's mom and Matthew's

mom all went out to lunch together. And like, so it's that love, like Matthew's love is humbling. But the love that Erin's parents have for all of our kids is truly, I think, like the best example of like, how to be, you know, and like, Erin's parents are like, everyone's grandma and grandpa. And like, they made five to nine accounts for Matthew's oldest kids, like, who have no blood relationship to them, you know what I mean? Like, they, they're everybody's grandparents. And to me, like, we could have so easily lost that and we didn't. And Erin's mom to me is like the best example of like, how to be a person, you know? Yeah. Because she lost her only son. And she is still so, so open and loving to the world around her. And I try to be more like her.

I gotta say, obviously, I have no idea. You deserve it. You don't deserve it. Thank you. Thank you. Come on. You deserve it. I'm so happy you have it. And it makes me my heart fill with joy to know and I know everyone is like, Oh, who are you saying? They're like, you got, it's okay. It's okay. Yeah, you deserve, you deserve this. You've, it's time for you to have that. And you thank you. I appreciate that. And if anyone is listening and plays music in Phoenix, he's a drummer and he's desperate for a band. And so please, if you play any kind of music in Phoenix, Arizona, my husband is a drummer and he's very good. And I say that as a person who doesn't know anything about drums, but believes him to be the best drummer

in the world. Okay. Yeah, I, he's like, I'm really not. I'm like, yeah, you were in Blink 182. You are Travis Barker. Okay. Wow. Friends, did you hear that? You must immediately bring this person into your band. Whoever's listening, please. You just heard this incredible conversation. And thank you for it. And thank you so much for your time. Thank you. Thank you. And for all of our technical difficulties. It's just lovely. You're such a lovely person. You are too. And I'm, I'm really grateful for the, for all the work that you do. Can you tell folks how they can find you? I know your podcast, terrible. Thanks for asking. But how can people connect to you? So my, you're, you're, you're my age, like, you know, the era of the screen name. So my screen

name is Nora Borealis. So my website is NoraBorealis.com, not my real last name, but surprised people from college that it wasn't. And, um, and so is my Instagram handle. And, um, yeah. So those are the places to find me. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you so much. You're so lovely. That was Nora McKinnerney, everybody. All the links to find Nora. We're going to be at duckatrustle.com or you could go straight to the tap at NoraBorealis.com. Much thanks to our sponsors for supporting the DTFH. And I want to thank you for listening. I love you and I will see you next week with two episodes. Until then, Hare Krishna. A good time starts with a great wardrobe. Next stop, JCPenney. Family get-togethers to fancy

occasions, wedding season two. We do it all in style. Dresses, suiting and plenty of color to play with. Get fixed up with brands like Liz Claiborne, Worthington, Stafford and Jay Farrar. Oh, and thereabouts for kids. Super cute and extra affordable. Check out the latest in-store shop at schurlman.com. A great time starts with a great wardrobe. Next stop, JCPenney. Family get-togethers to fancy occasions, wedding season two. We do it all in style. Dresses, suiting and plenty of color to play with. Get fixed up with brands like Liz Claiborne, Worthington, Stafford and Jay Farrar. Oh, and thereabouts for kids. Super cute and extra affordable. Check out the latest in-store and we're never short on options at jcp.com. All dressed up everywhere to go. JCPenney.