Duncan Trussell Family Hour - 520: Trudy Goodman

Episode Date: August 5, 2022

Trudy Goodman, Dharma teacher and founder of InsightLA, re-joins the DTFH! You can learn more about Trudy on her website, TrudyGoodman.com. Be sure to check out InsightLA as well at InsightLA.org. Original music by Aaron Michael Goldberg. This episode is brought to you by: ZipRecruiter - Try for FREE at ZipRecruiter.com/Duncan Squarespace - Use offer code: DUNCAN to save 10% on your first site. Lumi Labs - Visit MicroDose.com and use code DUNCAN at checkout for 30% Off and FREE Shipping on your first order!

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Oh, and thereabouts for kids. Super cute and extra affordable. Check out the latest in-store, and we're never short on options at jcp.com. All dressed up everywhere to go. JCPenney. Friends, we have a glorious episode for you today. Today's guest is Trudy Goodman.

You probably know her as Trudy, the love barbarian from the Midnight Gospel. She is a Dharma teacher. She is one of the founders of Insight LA, and she is incredible. I love her so much. I am lucky enough to have watched many of her Dharma talks at the Ram Dass retreats,

and somehow I actually get to do podcasts with her, which is incredible. If you want to find out more about Trudy, you can go to TrudyGoodman.com. And if you're in LA, you should definitely check out Insight LA. Before we jump into this episode, I'd like to invite you to come see me live.

I'm going to be at the La Jolla Comedy Store. That's coming right up. It's going to be August 12th, 13th, and 14th, and then after that, you can find me at the Miami Improv on the 19th and 20th and 18th. All the tickets are at dunkintressel.com. Also, I want to invite you to subscribe to my Patreon. It's patreon.com forward slash DTFH.

We have weekly group meditations and a weekly family gathering, and we'd love to meet you in person. Also, you'll get commercial-free episodes of the DTFH. And now, everybody, please welcome back TrudyGoodman. It's your turn. It's the dunkintressel. Trudy, welcome back to DTFH.

It's so wonderful to get to hang out with you again. It's been too long. I'm so happy to see you, Duncan. I love you and the DTFH. I love you too. It's DTFH, but we should take the F out. Trudy, how you doing? You have been through a pretty interesting last year.

Can we talk about it a little bit? What's going on? Well, in a moment, nothing's going on except being with you. I'm so happy to be here with you. But this year has been so intense, Duncan. I think many people have experienced how losses can come in clusters. And it started with losing my beloved friends.

Katie J. Scott and Gabriel Storing, who founded IACT, the anti-genocide group that I went to work refugees in. I'm actually wearing, you all can't see it because it's a podcast, but it's a big crystal that was given to a few of us by one of the Darfuri refugees named Adam, who made the intense decision to go back to Darfur with his family, even though the war was still going on because he just

couldn't bear raising his children in the refugee camp. Anyway, Katie J. was just turning 40, Gabriel somewhat older, but not way older, and they were killed in a car accident. It was completely and still is devastating. But I have to say, their nine-year-old, who's now turned 10, is doing great, living with her aunties. She's such a bright spirit, like her parents,

and she's doing fine. But Duncan, it was followed by losing a wonderful inside LA teacher who I was talking to as they were about to intubate him and saying, Michael, you're going to make it. And the next thing I knew, less than two weeks later, I'm offering him refugees as he's dying in the ICU. So I'm going to tell you, then my brother-in-law died.

Now, that was not unexpected. He'd been really struggling with cancer for two years. But then my little brother, he jumped the line and died before me and my sister. And it was so upsetting because he lived in a little village in the Andes in Ecuador, not too far from the border with Peru. It was really hard to get there.

And so I hadn't been there. I would only go every two years. And then, Jack and I were supposed to go right at the end of March, when the pandemic was flourishing and Ecuador closed their borders. And so we planned to go in January. And then Omicron surged. And we didn't know, really, that people weren't getting

that sick from Omicron mostly. So my brother, we were going to go for his birthday in January. And he was just like, hey, come for your birthday in June. I'm like, OK, I'll come in June for my birthday. And then he went and died March 18th. So 19th. I mean, it's been really intense. His house was ransacked, robbed, and really vandalized

right after he died. And that's, I think, part of the danger of being an expat in a really tiny South American place. But it's been a lot of work to put it back in order. And it's completed. It's on the market now. It's just a very simple, lovely dwelling that I hope maybe you or somebody else will buy.

And it's on a river with views of the mountains, another house site, if you want to put another house site on it. Anyone who's listening and wants to move to Vilcabamba, Ecuador, is a haven for many things. So you know what, I think it's going to help your pitch for the house to not mention the robbery before the house. You know, Duncan, I just want to say about the robbery.

We know who did it. The people knew my brother. They knew he had a big collection of silver coins in the house. They knew. Do you know what I mean? He lived in that community for years. And everybody knew he was collecting precious metals.

So that robbery that happened to him is not going to happen to you. If you buy the house, you know what I'm saying? There you go, everybody. Just don't call it. If you're a coin collector, this isn't your house. And if you're a coin collector, don't talk about it. Yeah.

Yeah. No matter what, it's either you're boring people or they're going to rob you. Either way, it's probably best not to mention it. Trudy, I don't know the right way to respond to what you just said. I don't know if there is one. So I'm going to revert to the classic, which is, I'm sorry.

That is unbearable. And I'm sorry. Thank you. And the really amazing thing is that it doesn't stop there, Duncan, as you know. And I'm telling all the women, all your listeners, I'm very public about this because it's kind of a silent epidemic that a lot of people don't know about.

But I got diagnosed. Let's see, maybe two months after Jonathan died, my brother with uterine cancer. And I'm telling you all, if you have any spotting or weird periods, don't just chalk it up to perimenopause or get checked out. I really want everybody to hear that because I got checked out and it was completely early stage.

The best prognosis and diagnosis you could possibly have, stage 1A. 1A. Still, still, I had to go through the surgery and won't need any other treatment. But it's still scary that word cancer is overloaded with fear. And so I did a whole series on social media because I really wanted to transform the meaning of this

and really make it something that is just another one of life's challenges that we live with. And I had a lot of fun. Actually, it was a creative project to post about it and to sing to my uterus the morning of my surgery. She's leaving home. Bye, bye. And I had fun with it.

I know that might sound weird, but at my age, it was not a disaster to lose your uterus. I think that's the sweetest thing ever. And yeah, yeah. So I do know. Do you sting, not the cancer? No, I understand. I understand.

Oh, I did a ceremony by the beach. I did one privately at home. Really just inviting the sacredness of the body and it's changing its form. And then the idea that these tissues that form your womb are interlaced with tissues that have cancer and really letting them both go return to emptiness. So that's been a lot.

And I feel great today. You seem great. And when you say that, the regret I'm feeling is that I didn't sing to my testicle before it was removed from my body. I just didn't. It's not too late. Oh, they're like to an old friend,

wherever, whatever your next incarnation may be. Exactly. In the realms of the absolute space of time, it's all relative. You can do it. You can do it. I want to thank Zip Recruiter for supporting this episode of the DTFH. Summer is here, friends.

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Again, that's ziprecruiter.com slash d-u-n-c-a-n. Zip Recruiter, the smartest way to hire. Do you, in your contemplation of the way these things cluster up, the way that when it rains, do you have any theory behind why that happens? Do you think it's just bad luck? Or what is your thinking in regard to why sometimes these things really all happen at once?

That is such a great question. And I'm going to refer to my sort of ultimate teacher, which has been really the Buddha. And the Buddha was very cool when he was asked questions like that. Is it my karma? Is it this? I mean, there's all kinds of karma.

There's individual karma. There's collective karma. For the cancer part, I really think a lot of it's environmental at this point. But when the Buddha was asked these questions, sort of metaphysical questions, why does this happen? It just goes silent. Because all he cared about was, how do I work with this?

What's a practical way to end the suffering that comes when you get grief piled on top of grief and loss? Or you get a shocking diagnosis. I never peg myself as somebody who had cancer ever. Whatever that means. Our self-image has to adjust. But why these things happen altogether is actually, I don't know the answer.

And it's one of those things that they're called the imponderables, the things that if you really try to figure them out, they drive you crazy. And they drive you either into self-blame or shame. I must be a bad person. This is my bad karma. I must have done horrible things in a previous lifetime,

whatever the story is. Or you just think about it and think about it. But you don't know. You try to figure it out, which leads to these obsessive brain loops. So I'm just more focused on how do you deal with it? How do you work with it in a way that leads to freeing your heart instead of making

you feel shittier? Right. Right. Yeah, because whatever the explanation may be, it's secondary. And definitely the explanation isn't going to fix the suffering part of it, like knowing why that isn't going to do anything really.

I don't know. Someone sets you on fire. You know someone set you on fire. You're still on fire. You need to figure out a way to get these flames to go out. But all of it to get like, you know, generally when it comes to grieving, and I think when you get cancer, regardless of the diagnosis,

there is grief involved in accepting this new reality, which is like, now you have joined the cancer club. You and I are both in that club. And I must say, there's a lot of fantastic members of that club. It's a wonderful secret society filled with some of the wisest people you will ever meet in your life. And I've learned from it.

But still, for me, that grief lingered. It lasted for years. It took years for me to acclimate with the reality of my own mortality, and the fact that my body, just like all the other bodies that have had to experience that, is vulnerable. So how do you deal with all these grief, grief, upon grief, upon grief, upon grief?

How do you deal with so many of these things that were? Well, there's two things you said that are just really striking. One of them is you said, I learned from it. And then you talked about how this club of the secret society of cancer people, people who have survived cancer or lived with cancer either way, that they're wise people. And so that learning from the experience

is what makes you wise, actually. Well, first of all, I want to also just offer about to you you were a lot younger when it happened to you. So it's harder. It's a huge, your jolt to yourself image as an invulnerable young guy. You know what I mean? It's just like, yeah.

So that's harder. But also, how do you deal with grief, whether it's one grief or two grief or losses piled on top of losses, the main ways to let yourself feel it. And that's why I did the rituals that I did with all those ceremonies or singing the song. They were ways to channel the feelings, the emotions, because the only way out is through.

And with grief, it's super tricky. And I talked about this a lot in the past that I call it crooked grief. Grief can come out in all these sideways, like if only I had done this or that or the other thing, if only I had only eaten brown rice and nothing else, or if only I had not eaten so much sugar, or if only I had talked to them before they died,

or if only I had made that phone call, the regrets, the if onlys. And obviously, that's not what the Buddha called onward leading. It's not leading to the end of suffering to have those kinds of thoughts. It just kind of spirals you down and drills you down deeper and deeper into it.

The other kind of grief that can happen is shame. You know, just feeling shame. And I think wherever women's reproductive work and it's just for a random example are concerned, there's just so much cultural, actually probably hundreds and hundreds of years of shame. I learned recently that the German word, I think it's been replaced,

but the German word for labia for many years was shameful parts. What? And, oh yeah, yeah. I mean, okay, I'm reading a book called Vagina Obscura. It's fantastic. I've heard of this book.

Have you really? Yes. It's fantastic. And it's all about the sort of shame and secrecy that has surrounded the vagina, the clitoris, the uterus. Yep. And the fact that there isn't much science

to tell us about it. Because guess what? Most scientists are not women. Unfortunately, that will change, but it hasn't yet. Yep. And most men just haven't been interested. And so there's a lot.

At least not scientifically. Thank you. Thank goodness. Yes, they're interested in other ways. Yes. So one of the ways that grief comes out is also some kind of shame or embarrassment or I shouldn't be feeling this way

or I'm a loser if I have this sadness and sorrow. Yeah. You know, and then as I said, especially what it has to do with your lady parts, or your private parts as a guy. I mean, right? Double. Yeah.

I lost one of my testicles. You know what I mean? It's just intense. I'm like one testicle away from like eunuch. Let's face it. I mean, that's the truth. And like, yeah, there's a lot. It's like, you know, of all the things

that you're going to get removed, that one's got a lot attached to it. So just being more than cancer, a lot attached to it. And so yes, totally. Like that particular, these forms of cancer that we are talking about, yeah, there's a lot going on there. And it's so cool. Don't commit.

You're so open about it and talk about it this way because that is another way to work with the grief. That when you share it, you're not holding it all in your own heart all by yourself. You're, you know, you're really, because what you discover when you have the courage and the presence of mind and heart to share it is you're not alone. You realize, hey, I'm not the only dude with one testicle.

Right. Other people reach out to you and they've got other stuff. Excuse me. Going on. Yep. And that was one of the things, you know, I never really did that much on social media until my brother died and until this happened.

But then I realized, oh my goodness, so many people are going to relate to this. And then not only do they relate to this, they send you love because you've brought it out into the open and they can be open too. It's like a giant permission. So that's another way to deal with the grief. When you're in the intensity of grieving, you're not in the

mood to share or talk about it. It's just too much pain. Right. Yes. And there I feel the best way is to just, and this I have learned from meditation practice to just be able to move into it and feel it fully in all its painful glory. And when you do that, something magical happens and you

discover there's actually a kind of sweetness to the sorrow. It's still painful. Yeah. It still hurts, but it becomes instead of kind of like an unwelcome assault on your being, it becomes part of the poignancy of life itself. Yeah. And the bitter sweetness of being alive is just something

bigger than the personal drowning in sorrow. All right. Would you, you're still grieving though. I mean, this is, it's not like a few months. This is a, that's the other thing I've, I've found with grief is it is a long, tricky process that, you know, and again, to get back to this thing that you're talking about, you encounter this thing and, you know, you're encountering it as

one of the great Dharma teachers from, you know, me encountering it. It isn't like, I'm going to run towards the grief. I'm going to embrace this grief. I'm going to feel this grief. It's, it's, it's, a, a, a, a, evasion. It's, you know, and also, you know, denial. Like you, you're like, Oh, okay, we're done.

It's, you know, I'm better now. It's over. And it's not even close to being over. No. And I think I'm really grateful that you brought up this sense, that this point about just how it takes as long as it takes and we live in a snap out of it culture. Yes.

Until recently in the DSM, the sort of big categorization of psychiatric illnesses and disorders and things like that. In the DSM, it was, it was the diagnostic and statistic manual of psychiatry. I think it's called, if you grief lasted more than three months, it was considered depression. Now this is ridiculous. Who gets over their grief in three months?

If it's something that really mattered to you, like an important relationship or a part of your body that actually mattered to you, it's going to take longer and it doesn't, it gets confused with depression because it looks like depression. Sometimes when you're in the middle of it, how long is it's going to last forever? My life will never be okay again. You know, that hopeless, helpless feeling of being depressed,

at least that kind of depression. Depression like grief can take many forms. You can have an anxious depression. You can have an angry depression and grief can come out in anger at the world too. I remember after my mom died, I would see little old ladies and think, why do you get to be alive? Wow.

I have this angry thought towards some innocent elder. Yeah. You know. Sure. So it takes all these different forms, but it's not depression. It's grief. Yeah.

It's not depression until, I don't know, I wouldn't believe and put a time frame on it. No. I mean, that's where you really, that's where I have run into lots of trouble with that. I mean, I, the, you know, I just, we're in Austin now, but I moved the whole family up to Asheville, North Carolina during the pandemic, Trudy.

And I went into a, at one point during the time that we were there, I don't know, I think it was a breakthrough. I went into it. Like, I don't know how to, I don't want to call it a fugue state, but you know, because I think that's probably, in the DSMR, I don't know where they're at now, five or six or, I don't know how many DSMs. I don't know.

That book used to freak me out. My mom was a psychologist. I had to read it and self-diagnose everything. Oh, they need to have every, every psychopathology in the book, right? Everything, crawling with various pathologies. So, but, so instead of going to the podcast studio to work, I got my car and I drove to Hendersonville,

North Carolina, where my mom passed away. And I'm, you know, these, I don't know if you know what I'm talking about. It's like a fugue state. It's like a dreamy state. Like I can see, I know, what am I doing? This is, I don't know what I'm doing. I'm going around all the places that we would go, the restaurants, my high school, and then finally,

and I'm looking for my mom. I mean that, I choke up. So then I drove to her house, our house, and I went down this gravel road and I'm sitting there looking up at the house that, you know, she would always be in the driveway when I came. And like somebody's looking out of the window at me like, why is this bearded dude weeping in my driveway? And then, and then that's when, I don't know how to put it,

but I realized, oh, she's not here. She's not here. She's not in Hendersonville. She's not in North Carolina. She's not, you brought your great, you wanted her to meet the kids. And that was, that was a revelatory moment. And then like six months later, we left.

Now we're in Austin. We love it here, but that's how insidious grief is. You know how this was all, this is underneath everything. I didn't think when I'm moving my family there, oh yeah, I'm going to, my mom's there. I just thought, oh, it's, I'm familiar with the area. And you know what I'm saying? It's like, and this was years.

But I think it's a kind of wisdom. Actually, you know, the fugue state, it's a fugue. It's a flight away from rationality. It's right away from, here's what I do. I go into the studio. I do my work. You know, it's, it's, it's following something else, which is an intuition.

You know, it's a, it's a, it's an inclination of your heart. And I call it wisdom because it led you to a realization. Right. Found insight. Yeah. And I'm not going to distract it, but there's a noise in the background. I don't know if you can hear it.

I can't hear it. Window. Yeah, please. Yeah. Close the, definitely. Close the window because I might be a gardener next summer. Trudy, all the grief talk aside. I, if I went back to wanting to be a clinical psychologist and

going to graduate school to conduct studies, I feel like I could do a study proving that when a podcast starts, the likelihood of gardening equipment, like appearing out of the blue increases by approximately 90%. And I really think I can prove that. I'm sorry. Let's dive back into the grief talk. I think, I think you're right.

Because let me just say that this particular, you know, I scheduled this. I'm up at Jax. I know that his gardener comes on Thursday. I never scheduled podcasts, you know, in Venice where I live, in my little cottage, because I know they, they're in the neighborhood on Tuesday. Yeah.

So today's Wednesday and his, they came. I'm telling you. It's because I have Duncan today. Yeah. When you said that, I was like, yeah, of course. Yeah. The gardeners came. You know, I would not be surprised if an unknown carpenter just

starts doing work on my podcast studio in a few minutes. It's just the way it is. I don't know what that is. I think the Buddha would also remain silent. If you ask, well, why the, why the gardening equipment when we podcast? And I want to make it clear when I talk about that Duncan, I don't mean you don't look into yourself and, you know,

take it honest, look at whatever you're part of a situation might have been. But when we're talking about losses of loved ones, relationships or health or these bigger things, it's not your fault. It's just not your fault. And even if you or I did something unhealthy because who hasn't every single day, right?

Almost even my former mother-in-law lived to her 90s smoking every single day and I, you know, eating the most unhealthy meals. Do you know, it's just not your fault. Yes, right. Yes. And, but I, you know, I did that too. I mean, I did that too. You know, like, you, you want to blame, you want to,

maybe the fault, maybe it's, but it's like, it gives you a sense of control. If you could, you know, if you can assess blame now, perhaps you could prevent whatever might be around the corner. And, and so, you know, it's a way to have some control. Duncan, it's one of the things I love about you and, and working with you. You have a very nuanced and actually very deep psychological

understanding. Thank you. So you may not have chosen that path, but it's there in you. Thank you. I really appreciate that. Thank you. And spiritual, you know, we talk, you know, psychological and spiritual, they really intertwine.

And there's places where, you know, where they overlap places where they don't. But I always want to say that because in the old days, I don't know if it's still like this in Dharma circles, but the psychological was definitely, you know, disparaged compared to the spiritual. And then we've learned since then through witnessing what happens to people who disparage the psychological and the

trouble they get into. Yeah. Actually, we really need to develop ourselves in both realms. I agree. Yeah. I've never liked that high archising of one over the other. It seems, it seems like what it was. So what?

Cause it's new. Is it like, what is this? Is it because relatively Western psychology and these systems are new and you are like fetishizing like things that are like if they've been around much longer. Yeah. I'm completely on the same page with you. You know, I, some people who need therapy, me, me,

I say me, I've tried to meditate my way out of trauma. I tried to meditate my way out of like, you know, things that I needed a therapist for. And then I went to the therapist and worked with the therapist up in North Carolina and it changed my life for the better. You know, and, and, and, and now the meditation is, is better. You know, it's, I was just going to say it helps your meditation.

Yes. It's real synergy, really powerful synergy and doing both psychotherapy and meditation. I want to thank Squarespace for supporting this episode of the DTFH. Squarespace is way more than just the most advanced tool for you to create a website. They do everything.

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You know, I'm really lucky. I have a really supportive, loving marriage. Yeah. And wonderful husband, but I didn't always have that. And then you need therapists, you need friends, you need support. And it doesn't, I mean, you need maybe a pet. One of the things that has comforted me is I don't have a dog, but you got a little catch in my voice.

I said to Jack the other day, we stopped to charge the car and there was a big pet, pet mart. And I said, what would you do if I came out with a puppy? Yeah. And he said, well, I probably escort you back into the store. So I enjoy my friends puppies, my friends dogs. I just posted something this morning with my God dogs, CC, CC Evans, who lives here in Centerfell.

I'm mentioning just anything that brings you joy. Right. Really, it's counterintuitive because when you're grieving, it's the last thing you feel like feeling. Yep. But there can be these windows. You can open a crack and just let the sun in and it really does help. Those little moments of sunshine are cumulative and they're in the heart.

Whoa. And they're in the heart. Right. Yeah. Right. Yeah. I know just what you're talking about. It's because you forget like when you're deep in the thing,

deep in the thing, that initial part of it. Yeah. You do. You're not going to be okay. And you even no matter what, I don't care how many spiritual books you've read or spiritual friends you have or whatever it may be. It's like, no, you don't understand. This isn't that this thing that I'm experiencing.

Oh, no, no, no. This is forever. And it sucks. There's times when as a friend of mine, Tai Chi master used to say, it ain't a teaching. It's a bummer. Yes. There's times when like that, it ain't a teaching.

It's a bummer. And I wanted to say to all your listeners, I would not buy a puppy in a pet mall. Oh, good thinking. It was a joke. Oh my gosh. You just saved yourself from a thousand rotten DMs. Wow. Somebody just stopped typing their DM.

They were already like mid like, why would you ever do that? Not even thinking about the grieving part. Not hearing any of that stuff. Just like, don't do that. Trudy. No, I won't do that. I promise you, but it was the five or six year old in me that just had that fantasy.

That's what it was. And a wonderful fantasy. And I have to tell you a grief pass. Grief pass. If you buy a puppy wherever you can buy the puppy. You've been, you can buy, you could just, just, I feel like some kind of permissiveness or something when you're grieving, you know, some, so let yourself off the hook for a second here.

That is so beautiful, Duncan. Yes. You want to feel good things and, you know, soft things. I always want to wear soft things, you know, things that are soft to the touch. And you want to listen to, you know, the sound of the wind in the pines or the waves in the ocean, nature sounds or pretty music that you like. And you want to eat yummy food and please don't deprive yourself when you're grieving, you know, eat comfort food.

All the senses need that pleasure and need that support because it is a bummer and it does suck. You know, I got to tell you. And I, I know, you know, when, even now, I don't know what to say, like when you are, even though when you're around someone in the grieving process, you find yourself kind of fumbling for you. There's a sense of like, oh, I want to come up with something to say. Here's the magic words that are going to help this person.

But you know, there's really not much you could say when, when I lost my mom or my dad, rather, I was talking to Ragu crying and I'm like, it hurts. It hurts. And he goes, yeah. Yeah, it hurts. And that was it. And it was perfect because, you know, everyone else is like, you know, trying to like give you something, an angle, just that it sucks.

No, this is not a teaching. This is a bummer. And I don't, I think that was such a, I don't know. I'm grateful to everyone who said any sweet thing to me, whatever it may have been, but that in particular, ah, you get it. Yeah. Yeah. I think one of the things that I've learned and tried to share, especially

with caregivers, people, professional caregivers who are working at the bedside like the ill and dying children and adults and is that just being present is enough. And that's huge because being present means being willing to sit with somebody else's pain without trying to get rid of it because it makes you uncomfortable with sweet words or, you know, getting busy with something helpful or capacity. Just sit and maybe hold somebody's hand or put a hand on their arm or shoulder.

Just sit quietly with somebody in that moment with, I just feel like everybody could have that gift of all their awkwardness removed. Don't worry about the right thing to say. Right. You know, just say, I'm here. Yeah. Right. Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. God, it's, we, our culture is grief, illiterate. Why is this not taught in schools? Why is this not, this is a universal experience. And to me, that's the other like aspect of this that is so like, like what you're saying about the three months and then it's depression.

I mean, that's even more information than most people have about grief in our culture. It seems like, like most people just don't know how to deal with it personally and certainly not from the perspective of someone in the community. It feels like we just, it's just, we don't have, it's off radar. And yet it is the one of the primary realities of being human. It is. And I feel like the more we can accept and brace, be willing to hold all of it, just the better off we are.

I just flashed on this scene when you were talking about your dad dying. I remember when my dad died, just the moment after he actually breathed his last breath, it was a little yawn and the family, I had, I was with him. And then the rest of the family gathered. And as we were sitting with his body, we actually told one of his long shaggy dog story jokes and everybody laughed hysterically. And it wasn't because we weren't sad and it wasn't because we were disrespectful of him. It was just part of enjoying and remembering who he was.

And so I mentioned this too, because grief, you say to me, you know, you're still grieving and I am still grieving. And the part of it that I treasure is how easily I move to tears by things. Jack and I, one of the things we did after my symmetry was, we don't usually watch series on TV, but we watched this wonderful Korean drama called, which is actually the title of it fits with what we're talking about today. It's okay to not be okay. That's the name of it.

It's okay to not be okay. It's the story of a caregiver in a Korean, he's a psychiatric nurse in a Korean hospital. This was his autistic brother. It's a drama. It's very intense. But I find myself in tender moments like when the autistic brother learns to recognize a facial expression or something and can name it, something like that. I find myself crying.

Yeah. And instead of thinking, you know, this is a TV show, why are you crying? I'm letting my heart be moved by all kinds of things. Right. It's like I'm living in a kind of deeper key or something. That's a mixture of life in a deeper dimension or something like this. And so I miss my brother and I will always, always regret that I didn't go in January, even if it was three flights and five hours in a car across the Andes and blah, blah, blah.

I forgive myself completely for not going. It's just as he forgave me and we were planning on, you know, getting together in what would have been a couple months ago. But I will always be sorry and sad that I didn't do that. And how many we have these things in our lives that we'll always be sorry and sad about. Yeah. But it doesn't mean that they break your heart still. It's something tender happens, you know, like when there's a skin wound and the cells begin to creep and bridge across the wound and then gradually, you know, form a scab and then the new skin underneath. It's a process and it heals and it's possible.

You know from your own life and your own work that it's possible to heal from trauma, that it's possible to heal from really whatever happens to us. Thank you, Loomie Labs, not just for supporting this episode of the DTFH, but for inundating my bloodstream with the most glorious THC gummy I have ever in vibed. Loomie Labs, they did it. And by it, I mean they figured out a way to create the perfect micro dose of THC. You're going to eat this stuff and you're not going to think that just maybe the earth is hollow and that's where the devil lives. It's going to create this nice, sweet, relaxed feeling. It helps me fall asleep, helps me chill out. Come on, who am I fooling?

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Links can be found at DuncanTrussell.com. microdose.com, code Duncan. I need more gummies, microdose team, please. You know from your own life and your own work that it's possible to heal from trauma, that it's possible to heal from really whatever happens to us. Yeah, and what you're saying about this deeper key, this is beautiful. And this is this aspect of grief to me is one of the most mysterious aspects of it. Roshi Joan Halifax, after my mom died, I went to, this is when they were doing the retreats in Hawaii at Lemuria. And Ragu, I don't know how he did it, he takes me to Ram Dass's house.

It was like the first time I like was at that house and like got to spend time with him. And Roshi Joan was there and she said to me something that I hadn't realized what you just said, but I was experiencing. But she said, the window is open for you and it will close. But while it's open, be in that. But you know, you know, and it was interesting, very interesting to me in that she was pointing out like this will this whether you think it will or not, it's going to heal. And you won't have those moments that the sobbing moments, you won't have those moments. And I think that's definitely a great thing for people experiencing that to know that it goes away. And I think I experienced is what weird is this might sound grief for the grief.

Like, once it did start going away that because that that open heartedness felt like a direct connection to my mom, it felt like being with her, you know. When the hearts when our hearts are open like that was so directly connected to everything that matters. And in certain, we're in that deeper key in certain frames of mind. Everything matters the sunlight on the leaf, I can see out the window of the way it's trembling and breeze. Everything becomes sacred and important and blessed. There are moments when, like you with your mom, I can feel the presence of Ramdas or my brother, or my parents, my love. And it's interesting the older I get, the more I appreciate. There's some saying about that, but your parents get wiser as you grow older.

I can't remember there's some saying. But the more I can feel connected and sometimes even feel their presence. When we were waiting before the surgery, it's been three weeks and when we were waiting before the surgery, we had some great fun. We actually had some great experiences. One of the nurses turned out to be this Thai Buddhist from the same area as Jack's teacher Achanchai. So, you know, they start because I said to her, you know, my husband speaks Thai and one thing led to another. And I don't know, I was putting on my surgical cap like a beret. We were just having fun.

And then Jack suddenly said, I feel Ramdas here. I feel he's here. You know, there's these moments when they are kind of mystical, mysterious moments of presence when our hearts are that open. And I used to be so skeptical about any kind of life after death. And I thought Jack was just being a charlatan when he was doing his past life regressions for people. I was judgmental about it. And I have completely changed my tune since losing so many loved ones. Yeah, that's right.

I just, it's very mysterious. But the kind of presence you feel in those moments, it's more than a memory. It's a vivid lived experience. Yes. Of closeness, right? Yes. And you know, that's the other thing about Cancer Club and Grief Club is that when you're in it, you, you know, we're having a public conversation about this, but you have private conversations. People will out of the blue start calling you and you have these private conversations confirming what you're talking about.

If you chat with someone who somehow has managed to avoid the Grief Club, which no one, everyone eventually will be a member. And you, when you mention these things, they will quite often, they'll be like, I know, I know they're there. Oh, yes. Oh, yes. But you know, they're thinking like, okay, this is a coping mechanism. Right. They're comforting themselves. Yeah.

Okay. They're there. They're there. But when you, when you're talking to someone who's going through it, as you are, and they're like, they are confirming your experience, which is no, no, no. They're here. She was here with me. And I know it. And closer than even maybe when her body was, was around, closer than that.

And yeah, that, that I think is a, is for sure contact. You know, my friend Conor Abib was saying, we think when we're, that we are thinking of those that have gone over. But really, when we're thinking of them, it's because they're thinking of us. And I've always loved that idea of like, oh, now this is just them, you know, bringing you to wherever they may be, whatever that place is. You know, my friend, John Lockley, who's a South, South African showman, he did a kind of ceremony for me once where he said, before we do anything, we invoke, we say the names of our parents, the full names of our parents, the full names of our grandparents, literally invoking the ancestors. Like, you know, all indigenous cultures do this. And I feel like it's one of the great deprivations of Eurocentric culture that we haven't had this tradition of revering and connecting with our ancestors.

Now, some people, you might be listening and thinking, you know, I don't, my ancestors are no one I want to connect with. Right. But, but it's not really at the level of the details of who they were in their life. It's the much bigger part of them being the conduit for you to be alive, the chain of being. And you can reach way back in time to ancestors that, you know, might have been ones that you'd rather connect with. But, but I have really been appreciating and I think it's entering more of the mainstream culture now through a lot of the African, African American practices. And, and, well, the indigenous practices that are and this idea of, I guess in Christianity, maybe you haven't people looking down from heaven, but this is a little bit not like that. Maybe you can help me with the difference here, but there is a difference.

But I really feel this sense of guidance sometimes. And I've talked to others. My friend, Myra, my friend, she's my cousin, my first cousin, Myra Goodman, wrote a beautiful book about her father, called Quest for Eternal Sunshine. It's the Holocaust survivors, how he found happiness after all of the trauma of being in camps, literally as a teenager. And, you know, she said in writing that book, she really felt it was her father writing it. There were just moments when she was led to certain people or to investigate certain things that she absolutely did not feel it was herself doing it. And I think you probably have those experiences too. It's mysterious. Where does one consciousness stop and another begin?

I, okay. May I tell you one of those experiences I had? Please. So I love cooking breakfast for my kids. I like to make them pancakes. And my mom, when she passed away, you know, I was going through the CDs she was listening to, you know, you'd want to know everything. And I'm like, what were you listening to? She, you know, she listens to what she's listening to.

Krishnadas and Inya were like that. Those were on her playlist. Cool mom. Cool mom. She would have loved you. In fact, she was a huge fan of your husband. Actually, I was listening to Jack's voice long before I met him because she would play these tapes. But regardless, I am, so I would, my poor kids, I'm like playing Inya for them. And like, though the youngest doesn't care, the oldest is like very, very wonderful.

And like somehow just like allows it. He's like, he will say like, this is relaxing music. They want to listen to wheels on the bus, you know? Of course. So I'm playing Inya for them. They're eating. They're eating. They're eating and, you know, I'm eating with them and I'm just, that thing happens, whatever it is, that thing happens where I feel, oh, my mom is here.

And then, but then also like, oh, the way she's here is she's in the love. She's in the connection and the love and she's in this moment, but in like the cooking for the kids and me like enjoying being with them. And then Forest looks up from his pancakes just as I thought this and looks at me and goes, did you find me? Yeah. Yeah. It was wild. It was, I didn't, you know, what do you say, but and what did he mean? I don't know.

But wow, like that was, that was another big moment for me. It was just realizing, oh, right. Like the, what was our, what was your mom? What was your brother? What was Ramdas? You know, other than what they did, other than the, and also that thing that many of us have this, like, I don't want to meet this relative or that relative in the afterlife because they had all these like ego problems. But if you've ever been around a dying person, it melts away or whatever that stuff is, that's gone. That goes quick.

And then there's this, you know, my friend Dan Harmon has a great book. The title is, you'll be perfect when you're dead. And you see that perfection. That thing. Like what, what, and where does that live? Where does that hang out? Does that live in the body? Does that live in like the book?

No, can't write. It's this, this conversation we're having. It's the connection. In between. Yeah. Yeah, it's, it's, we can say it's all awareness or Ramdas would say it's all loving awareness, but there really is a space, a place, however we conceive of it is not it where it really is all connected. And that's an experience that you don't have to study meditation for 50 years, whatever I have to, to know that and to feel connected to that. And actually, we don't like it, but grief is a doorway.

It is a gateway into this more expanded consciousness. Oh yeah. Yeah. What was your brother's name? Jonathan. Jonathan. And he was a who's a special, he had special needs. He was a guy who was super bright and handsome and everything. Then he was one of those people who I think it was his fifth LSD trip when he was in college at Wesley and he just didn't come down and triggered some kind of psychotic break.

So it was really tragic and it took 10 years of his being in and out of the mental hospitals and halfway houses and whatnot before he got properly diagnosed with bipolar severe bipolar disorder and then got on with him. It helped him stabilize and be able to have a life really. It was a life less tragic life. And he was very funny and kind of kind of gave up I think on the human world in many ways. Yeah. He had, he had more, he had friends, but he really related more to animals, especially birds. Ravens would take their wings to him. He was with kind of like a hermit.

But his best friend has been helping me with the house. If anybody's really interested in buying the house, you can find it listed in Vilcabamba, Ecuador. Use Africa Duncan, you'll get 40%. Instacasa, Instacasa is the website. I'll put the links at duckatrestle.com. And you know, I must say any friend of Ravens is a friend of mine. I love them. This is one of the, this is the only thing that I don't like about Austin is that where we're at, there's no crows. It was a ritual with my kids. We feed the crows and they're so smart.

You would have loved, you would have loved my brother. You really would have loved him. You would have had him on your podcast. Yeah, I would have. And what, what's one of your favorite memories with him? Okay. Of course, tons of memories flood in, but one of my favorite ones is he moved out to. Aroseco near Taos, New Mexico to be near my teacher, Coban.

Coban Gino Atagawa. And one time he had had, he'd gone, Coban thought that lithium was a drug and he told Jonathan to get off of it. And so yeah, so Jonathan went off of it. Of course, had a manic episode, you know, set his cabin on fire. I can't remember what he did, but it was very scary. And Coban called me. He was kind of desperate. And, you know, we talked and he, he, he settled down.

He got him what he needed and he settled down. And later I came out to visit and my role was always the big sister helper when my brother got into trouble because our parents lived overseas. So I was in that role. Yeah. And it was very humiliating for my brother and it was unpleasant for me, but it was just sort of. It seemed like the way it had to be at least a lot of time when, at least the times when he was in trouble, which were not most of the time I'm happy to say at all. So one time we're walking with Coban and he was holding our hands. He had me on one side, my brother on the other side, and we're walking up El Salto Mountain.

And I can't remember what we were talking about, but suddenly Coban just looked at me and he said, Why can't you be more like your brother? Now this is my revered Zen teacher talking to me. Who knows us both really well. Who has walked my brother through one of, you know, a really hairy scary episode in his life, which was actually the last time that ever happened, I think, or maybe one other time 20 years later. I mean, he was really stable and fine. But he just turned it around, Duncan, to where my brother with his connection to the animals and the ravens and his ability to be unto himself as a hermit and me with my busy professional life and family and all, he just turned it around. Why can't you be more like your brother? Oh my gosh, my brother had the biggest grin on his face. Nobody ever said that to me about him. So that's one of my favorite memories.

Wow. Wow. Yeah. Thank you for asking. Did you answer him? Did you answer the question? No. Oh, no, I didn't. I think when he asked it, I was so, I was really taken aback, because I was in this pattern of seeing myself as the same accomplished, blah, blah, blah, blah, you know, it's embarrassing even say these things, but that's how I was sure thinking of myself. And my brother as sort of the special needs disabled man who needed my help. So when he said that, it just completely stopped my mind. I had nothing to say. But what I saw was, oh, my brother is so much closer to the heart of spiritual life than I in all my achievements and business and I saw that. And it did change our relationship.

But now, how would you be more like your brother? Oh, that makes me cry because I feel like because of the pandemic, I didn't get to see him for four and a half years and I almost don't know like how he had evolved because he wouldn't, he wouldn't do screens. So we could talk on the phone from time to time, but it was mostly email because his phone reception wasn't good in the back of beyond where he lived and you know what I mean, it was just. So I feel like I didn't get a chance to learn from where he would be actually now but with his passing. I think, I think the thing that I have for my brother is this deep sense of whoever you are is enough. Because my brother found happiness in the Book of Alma, he found happiness at the end of his life, because he was living in a culture that did not stigmatize people in the same way he didn't enter that place as a mental patient or a formal mental patient or a guy who had a mental illness or a, you know, the disability, none of that. He used, he used cannabis, he used weed to help stabilize himself, he got himself off any heavy meds he had been on and he was able as just an eccentric hermit guy to make a great life for himself there, being in, it was enough to be who he was. And I feel like at this time in my life I really want to do more spiritual practice, I'm writing, I want the creativity and access to my own self that I've helped other people get for the last 50 years and that that could be enough.

Yeah, I think, I think that is yes. And maybe if you have crows in the neighborhood, I don't know if you feed them. We do, we do. Oh, great. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Wow, treaty. Because you know, those creatures, you know, like what the, what you're saying about the ravens tipping their wing, you know, like in Norse mythology, you know, Odin has two crows. And these are like his eyes, he sends the crows out. And so, you know, anytime, and my wife always corrects me on the pronunciation, because I mess it up every time. But anytime now when Forrest sees a crow, he goes, that's Munich, because that's one of the names of Odin's crows. The other one is Hugen and Munich. And so, I'm like, Oh, yes, there they are, there they are. But I really love your brother. I want a beautiful, what a beautiful life who has the guts to do that. Who has the guts to go up and we left everything. Yeah. Yeah. And he had the guts, he had a lot. And that's the other thing I just appreciate his courage to live with the challenges that he had, and to make a life that was as good as the one he created for himself.

I really admire his courage. And yesterday I was going for a walk and a flock of crows flew over my head and I thought, Oh my gosh, they're coming for a walk with me. We're actually going to roost in nearby tree because it was toward the end of the day. But it's, yeah, it's, they're so smart. And they're so, I think they're intelligence and presence in our lives. Are you going to stay in Austin Duncan? Yes. I was gonna say, you can come here, we've got lots of crows. Well, I'll tell you, I, you know, we, we love it here. And, you know, I'm sure you're aware of the, you know, I could afford maybe a house in Ecuador, but getting property in LA right now isn't, isn't easy. But yeah, I miss you all so much. I mean, this is like the, this is the trade off. It's like, I don't get to be around you. I don't get, you know, I like that when we were thinking we were going to move to LA. Of course, this is one of the things that my head is like, Oh my God, the kids are going to get to hang out with Jack and Trudy. They're going to be able to see Venice and like, you know, but, but, um, yeah. Maybe you all will end up in Austin at some point because I sure would love to see him in person, especially now that I know Jack does past life regressions. That's something that, you know, I didn't know.

He does. I mean, you know, doesn't do this much anymore, but he would. I'm sure for you, he'd be happy to. Yeah. And you become visit too. And we'll hang out. I would love that. If you ever bring the kids to LA, I know it's expensive, but if you ever bring them, we could help you find a place to be. Are you coming to the retreat in December and bringing the kid, they're going to get to meet you. That we're going to be there. Okay. Okay. Then we'll hang out at the beach and play. Trudy, thank you so much for this conversation. Thank you for being so open about everything that you have been experiencing. You know, I can confirm that your sense that this is like a service to people. It really, really is. And I know you already know this because I'm sure countless people have been reaching out to you, not just your honesty about the grief. But when you, it's a weird way to say it, when you come out of the cancer closet and you don't try to hide it and you put it all out there, you literally save lives, you save lives because people put it off.

People are scared of the doctor. I was scared of the doctor. You don't want to go to the doctor. You're afraid that the doctor, you know, I don't know what the name for it is, but you have paired the doctor with your own mortality. Like the doc, like just to act of going to the doctor is going to be the thing that gives you cancer, not the case. If you have cancer, you have cancer, whether you go to the doctor or don't go to the doctor. And you just might my friends out there who are like having anything with your balls. Sorry. Go to the doctor spotting or you're spotting if you have anything with your periods, go to the doctor, go to the doctor because the probability is you're going to go there and everything's gonna be fine. That's the probability. The odds are you're going to go there. You're just going to feel better. But if you go there and it isn't the case, there's the technology they have now compared to whatever movies freaked you out about cancer, you know, from the 80s or whatever, things are different now. Like they can just read it. They can, they can stop it in its tracks. They can slow it down to a crow. There's so like it's not the cancer that our parents were worried about. It's cancer, but the options, there's so many more options out there.

So many more. And, and I also want to echo what you said that, you know, even if you do have spotting, abnormal bleeding, whatever chances are, it's not cancer. There's lots of other things it can be. That's right. Chances are it's a payday for your, for the doctor from your insurance company and you're going to be fine. But that's it. So just, just do it. Trust me, I put it off and I really regret that because, you know, I didn't get the one a like that's why I had to get radiation therapy. And again, we can't go back and look and like say it's, you know, maybe if I'd like listen to my body sooner or whatever. But yeah, it's worth just, you know, just go there. And also my friends, you can definitely reach out to me on Instagram. If you're like, if you have any questions about it, I will ultimately just tell you to go to the doctor. But if that gets you to the doctor, feel free to, to ask whatever your question and the same, the same with me, Trudy underscore Goodman on Instagram, really the same. Yeah. Trudy. Thank you, Duncan. Thank you so much. You do. I love seeing you. And thank you. Thank you for being here, Trudy. All the links you need to find Trudy, including the link to this, what I imagine to be a beautiful house in Ecuador, we're going to be at dunkatrestle.com.

Do you want to share again where people can find that house because I do know that a lot of my listeners are nomadic and this might sound awesome to them. Well, there are a lot of expats there. And so the listeners may even know this little village is called Vilcabamba. It's in southern Ecuador. Not far from Loja is the closest city. And I will give Duncan the link to the Realtors posting of the house. Beautiful. For sure. And also to my Instagram and all that stuff. Wonderful. Trudy, I love you. Thank you. I love you too, Duncan. I'll see you in September and December. Can't wait.

Bye. That was Trudy Goodman, everybody. You can find Trudy at TrudyGoodman.com. A big thank you to our sponsors and a tremendous thank you to you for continuing to listen to the DTFH. May God go with you. I love you. I'll see you next week. Until then, Hare Krishna. Check out the latest in store and we're never short on options at JCP.com. All dressed up everywhere to go. JCPenney. Thank you for listening up today at Macy's.com slash Star Rewards. Savings off regular sale and clearance prices. Exclusions apply.