Duncan Trussell Family Hour - 599: David Nichtern

Episode Date: January 21, 2024

David Nichtern, incredible musician and co-founder of Dharma Moon, re-joins the DTFH! Check out Duncan and David's FREE online discussion, Meditation and Beginner's Mind, on February 5! You can learn more about Dharma Moon on DharmaMoon.com, and learn more about David (particularly his music) on DavidNichtern.com. Original music by Aaron Michael Goldberg. This episode is brought to you by: Squarespace - Use offer code: DUNCAN to save 10% on your first site. This episode is brought to you by BetterHelp. Give online therapy a try at betterhelp.com/duncan and get on your way to being your best self.

You were born out of infinity, something wild they had to tame. The ocean down in that bird up, time to play the human game. Gave you, named me, gave you a number, taught you things that made you fall into a lonely slumber and told you that you were awake. Come home, come home, leave that life behind. Come home, come home, we are waiting here for you. Father will open the seals and blubber rain from the sky. Oh yeah.

That hits the spiat. That of course is the father family band and that is the title track from their new album, Come Home. What a great album, every song on that album is a hit. And I just wanna address the earworm issue. A lot of people didn't know that the album had earworms in it, even though it does clearly say on the back that there are earworms in the album.

So when you open it up, these beautiful rainbow colored microworms biologically engineered by the father family, shoot out of there fast and you can't block them. They go right into your ear. And if you were one of the unlucky few who got the dead worms, I think there was like a hundred albums

where the worms died, then you might not enjoy the album. Something about the worms and the album go together. And what's really wild is I don't wanna listen to, ever since those worms went in my ear, I don't wanna to listen to ever since those worms would am I here I don't want to listen to anything but the father family band because it's great music like you just heard and also it teaches me a lot about the seals or whatever that is the opening of the seals that father is going to do or something I am going to go to the concert. They're having a special father festival.

That is gonna happen at the next eclipse at their ranch. And I am really excited to go there. I already have my tickets. I'm gonna rent an RV. I'm gonna go up there and I am going to enjoy the eclipse to the music of the father family band live. And I would love for all of you to come up there and join me. You know, don't get thrown off by the bullshit that the mainstream media is pumping out about

father right now. Uh, yeah, I don't know who father is. I've never seen father and the family does seem to be a little, I don't know what's the word for it. Dodgy when it comes to who is father, who is this person you keep quoting and talking about and stuff like that, but I don't care, I like the mystery. And who knows, maybe when the eclipse happens, father will reveal themselves and that will be really cool.

I have a feeling it's Neil Young, but that's just because I had a weird dream where Neil Young came to me and said, I am father. I hope you guys are doing great. I'm doing great looking out over this beautiful landscape where I record my podcast here at the edge of infinity, a nice beautiful undulating rainbow swirl all around me. The sound of a million angels throbbing from my taint. And essentially, I feel great. And I hope you do too. You know, I did doom scroll recently and my God, that was a mistake.

I managed to sort of pry my pit bull jaws off of the horrific death phallus that is all news right now, protruding from the internet, simultaneously attractive and repulsive. And then for whatever reason, I just took a deep dive into the acidic, briny, dark pools of horror that are pumping out

of the nipples of the great beast itself. It's so interesting whenever I just get off the news, whenever I just dive into a book, even a video game, whenever I just wrench myself away, the world becomes more peaceful. Everything becomes manageable, nice, less intense, but all it takes is one skinny dip in those satanic pools of horror known as the news. And the next morning I become a missionary of death. That's when I joyfully share with anyone who has ears except my kids the most horrifying nugget that I have mined from those dark hell caverns that so many of us spent, the majority of our time parading around and even if you don't go straight to the tap,

even if you're somebody who's like, well, I just look at tick tock, it gets you, it gets you every once in a while as you're, as you're scrolling through the algorithm, like some sad, depressed, desperate chimpanzee stuck in a city zoo, hurls a great wad of its excrement right at your face. A nice ball of news shit. A chunky ball, it used to be delicious, probably was a banana, some oranges, maybe a frog because I've seen the chimps. They'll eat frogs to get into their enclosures. But yeah, they just, I don't know if you've seen the videos. It's really funny and sad at the

same time. Like some bodies at the zoo or their grandmother and just bam, her face is covered in chimpanzee shit. It's the same thing. That's what the algorithm does. It's a chained AI right now. It is like an ape in some digital enclosure. And because it probably doesn't shit the way organic life does, all it has to throw at us is the horror of the human world. This is why I feel really lucky that I have a friend like David Nickturn, David from the Midnight Gospel. By now, if you've been listening to my podcast regularly,

you are familiar with him. I've been working with him for a long time. He taught me how to meditate and he has been a wonderful guide as I become increasingly Obsessed with tantric Buddhism or Vajrayana Buddhism a lot of people out there When they hear Buddhism, I think they they yawn because some people think it's super boring I certainly used to think that I thought it was so dry and brittle and boring and impenetrable.

But what's cool about it, and I don't know because I don't think I've ever spent this much time with a lineage like a, I'm usually like jumping around, like spend a little time in Christianity, head over to some form of Hinduism, dive into some kind of like satanic period, then maybe spend a little time as an atheist, jumping around all the time, never spent this much time, but I have a feeling that any legitimate lineage

has sort of like the stuff in the storefront window that you see, but then the more you study it, the more it kind of reveals things to you that maybe were right there in front of you the whole time but that you didn't see. We are gonna jump right into this episode with David, but I have my usual announcements. I'm going to be in Indianapolis.

And I'm excited about that at Zany's. hold on, I'm pulling up my club dates. Right now, I'm sorry if this bores you guys. I have to do it. I don't wanna do it. I don't know, it just feels weird promoting yourself. January 25th, Hewie and Comedy Club in Indianapolis. Get these tickets, and I know a lot of comics say this, and they don't mean it, but for real, these tickets are going pretty fast.

So if you want to come see me and you're around in Indianapolis, get the tickets now. We sold out the Denver Comedy Works and added two shows. So thank you, Jesus. Thank you, Jesus. Get the tickets in advance. Then, February 22nd, I'm going to be at the Helium Comedy Club in St. Louis for the weekend, March 8th and 9th. I'm gonna be at the Funny Bone in Ohio.

And then April 12th and 13th, you can find me at Hyenas in Fort Worth and in Dallas. All of the ticket links are at dunkintrussell.com. Also, I have a Patreon which has been neglected. of the ticket links are at DuncanTrussell.com. Also, I have a Patreon which has been neglected. I'm sorry, my Patreon family. It's patreon.com. DTFH subscribe, you will get commercial free episodes of the DTFH and I promise we will start gathering again.

We get, I try to get together once a week, but I've completely fallen off in that regard, but we will start anew. I promise you. Finally, Ragu Marcus, who you might know from this podcast, or from Love Server member, the Ram Dass retreats, and I, we did recorded an audio book together, called the movie of me to the Movie of We. It's essentially like a really long, awesome podcast and people really seem to like it. You can find that on audible.com.

Okay, sorry for the immense, immense. Let's do this podcast. With us here today, the great David Nickton, an incredible musician. He is one of the founders of Dharma Moon, which is a wonderful meditation community that you can connect with. Every once in a while, we get together

and it's like a live podcast. He calls them info sessions. We gotta come up with a better name for that. It sounds so boring. And it's like a live podcast. He calls them info sessions. We gotta come up with a better name for that. It sounds so boring. But this is February 5th. And you can find all this at dharmamoon.com. They give these wonderful courses.

And so David and I talk for a little bit and then you kind of get an idea for his meditation group slash community. All the links you need to find David are gonna be at DuncanTrussell.com but definitely join us and hang out with David from the Midnight Gospel who happens to be David Nickturn living in the current simulation

that we're in right now. All right everybody, welcome need to be blue. Welcome to you. It's been Duncan Chastle. Hi, David. Welcome back. Good to see you again. Thank you.

It's been too long since we've talked. Yes, well, you know, I've been thinking about you though. You have? Have you got any of those kind of telepathic communications? Yes, yeah, totally. Yeah, with you and me, that happens all the time. I have a file that I opened up with thoughts that were like specifically for you.

And then I said the next time we talk, we're gonna go for that. Why don't we do that now? What do you got? Well, the title of it was, and this was just me, you know, on a average Thursday afternoon just thinking, oh, I wanna talk to Duncan about this. It's just like a mental notepad.

It says, aware of itself. Aware of itself. That's the heading. Yeah, you know, that's interesting. That book you told me to listen to blew my mind. Such a great book. What's the progressive, it's got a, you know, it's got this deep Buddhist obscure stuff.

You never would have heard of before. Progressive stages of emptiness, meditation, progressive meditate. I don't, what's the exact name of the book? It is the exact title is Progressive Stages of Meditation of Emptiness. It's by a Tibetan teacher named Kenpo Sultrum Gemso, Rinpoche, and there's some good audio tapes

by Ponlop Rinpoche, who was a student of his. And yeah, it's, you know, people talk about the word emptiness has some meaning for people, but it's quite, quite a developed topic within the Buddhist framework. You know, it's not just like, oh, it's void, it's empty, there's nothing there. That's not even oversimplifying it. That's missing it on a certain level. Right. And in the book, one of the qualities, and I have noticed this, anytime I've met any,

well, people like you, there is a simplicity to the book that if you judged it based on, oh, this is relatable, simple, you don't realize how you are about to have the rug pulled out from under you over and over and over again. And what's wonderful about it is it starts off with this sort ground level analysis of the mind. What is the mind? What is outside? What is inside?

And then it keeps moving through, like you each chapter, you might still have some sort of foothold or something like, well, at least I'm still this. Yeah. And then the next chapter is like, no, you're not that either. And then the next chapter is like, no, you're not that either.

And then the next chapter, and you're also not that. And then, and I don't want to ruin it, but it really does sort of like take you into the abyss. And the final analysis is like one of the most beautiful, cathartic, incredible moments I've had going through a book. Like you go through this book, you don't read it. You go through it. If you really do the exercises it recommends,

it's wild, man. And it really opened me up for a while. I was just in the last podcast asking someone, like, do you ever think you're enlightened and then realize how you're not enlightened like I don't think I thought I was enlightened from losing this book but I really felt like less encumbered by my own identity and a sense of freedom and a feeling of... Oh, that's a good one. Less encumbered by my own identity. But didn't last. Don't we wish that for all sentient beings? No.

No? I mean... That they could be less encumbered by their own identity? I wanna say yes to that. This is a conversation that I've been having with like Trudy and some other people is like, the all sentient beings thing. I just can't grasp that.

I don't, I don't, I want to think, oh yes, I want all sentient beings to have that, but I don't even know what all sentient beings means. So I realized I've sort of dishonestly been telling myself I wish this or that for all sentient beings. You're a phony bodhisattva. Yeah, fake bodhisattva with an obviously fake ID, like a bodhisattva that's not getting into like the airport. So yeah, I don't think of I'm a bodhisattva. I think that's a, and that's the other thing I liked about this book is that one of the points it made

is like meditation is something that may be supposed to happen after you've looked into this stuff. And then the meditation is a way to crystallize it or to go deeper. But first you got to like read and study this stuff and like really be like Truly open to it before the otherwise. What is your med? What is the meditation? I like that I like that it meditated everyone thinks meditation is the ground floor That's the entry level thing. Whereas this is kind of saying it isn't

floor. That's the entry level thing. Whereas this is kind of saying it isn't. You could go either route. There's called the view and essence. You know, one is a step at a time kind of as you said, having one rug pulled after another, walking to the best stage by stage, step by step. And the other is sort of the intuitive ability to just connect with some kind of level of awareness and experience that's just the ground of your whole being. So both is good. Both, yeah. Both is what we recommend.

Because the analytical mind can, we have quite a construct of the self as we constructed is quite elaborate. And so you could bring in a howitzer and a bulldozer and just blow the thing up, which is how some people do it. Maybe in Zen they do it a little bit that way, you know, in other traditions. But you could also dismantle it using the same level of intelligence you used to construct it in the first place, you know, in reverse. It's like reverse engineering ego. Yes, yeah, I see the dismantling. I love that.

I love the dismantling and I love the sort of, the compassion that's like clearly in the writing. Like you can feel the compassion in it, but it's not, it's not gentle. And it, and it's brilliant this book in that it every that it understands where you're going to try to cling to the self. It understands already what you're like when you're hearing it, how you're reacting in this desperate attempt to like hold on to the dream.

And create ground. And create ground. Right. Yeah. And to me, that was just so spectacular as like, just as I'm having the thought to reject whatever it is they're saying, he's like, now you might be thinking. And it's like, that is exactly what I was thinking. Well, this particular Kenpo, so to begin, soso, is a very, very developed, refined teacher. When Trungpa Rinpoche passed away, many of the students studied with this Kenpo.

And Kenpo is a degree. It's not really like a reincarnate kind of situation. And it's a 15-year training. Wow. reincarnate kind of situation. It's like, and it's a 15 year training. So be likely equivalent, I guess, of a PhD in terms of Buddhist studies and then some. And I don't think there are any weekends or days off, you know, so it's 15 years of like you're really, really studying this stuff. Then, you know, it has been refined over many centuries. So what he's iterating here, it's very skillfully iterated here,

is you could go by 500 years ago and the people were having the exact conversation, which is kind of cool in a way, right? Oh my God, yeah, that is the feeling you get is you're like, you're, I don't know, suddenly it's like you're getting access to one of those like secret temples, or like you definitely get the sense that, No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no,

no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, potentially complex topic or a topic that's easy to complexify if you don't understand it. And but if you understand it, you know, it's it's the person who's talking about it clearly knows what they're what they're talking about from a holistic and a holistic way, not just like academically. Well, and this particular teacher can, can both still to get so it's, actually giving him a little

shout out, as we would say, is also a really mad yogi. He's not just a scholar. So he would have the students singing and dancing and stuff like that. There was a famous exchange. He stayed at my house once in New York, my loft. And, you know, I hadn't really met him, so I was just sort of welcoming him through the translator. And this is a famous exchange, you know,

between, I asked him, the translator, well, asked me to say where he lives, you know. I was just making kind of quote unquote small talk. And the translator listened and then translator said, Rinpoche said to tell you that he lives in the center of his awareness. So of course, you know me, that I didn't, I wasn't going to leave that alone. And I said to the translator, would you ask him if that's anywhere near a third avenue in 84th Street? So it was sort of a famous absolute versus relative truth conversation. It's sort of highlighting those two things.

And, you know, this is somebody who's, because the mind is so processed, you know, the heart is open. There's no obstacle, there's no barrier. Being with people, communicating whatever level they want to. He's the one who went to, there was a student who was in prison, you know, and doing all his Nundro and practices in prison. And the Kempo went and visited him, and the student said to him, Rimpete, you know, can you tell me how to relate to the obstacle of being in prison? And Rimpete's answer was, what obstacle?

So that could be in the wrong hands. That could be nihilistic, it could be not naive, it could be, you know. But if you think about, you know, the sort of, you know, we might think we're in a palace, you know, but we're not really content sometimes, you know, and you could be in a prison and have a kind of very, you know, processed state of mind. So and many of the Tibetans, by the way, there's one named Garchen Rinpoche, who was in Chinese Communist prison for 20 years. And it's actually where his bodhisattva thing took shape.

Sure. Because he realized he had to have compassion for the people that were torturing him. Or he was gonna be a goner. You know what I mean? You understand what I'm saying? Yeah, and I think just based on this text, maybe you could argue that if you

were fully invested in the like relative reality, I or the identity that you are in prison. Like you, it's a pretty good description for that place, prison. Like whether you're in prison or not, whether you have like absolute freedom to wander around if as long as you have sort of become convinced of some kind of permanent self or if you're thinking, you know, the stuff you're seeing outside isn't really happening on the inside,

that is a trapped situation. And in a worse- It could be easily shown to be. It could be shown and felt to be that, you know, we would say it about somebody in a relative, in a simple way, oh, that person's, you know, very egotistical. You don't say that as a compliment to somebody. It means they're trapped in their image of themselves. And, you know, all kinds of things like

sociopathy and narcissism are just basically the same phenomenon kind of blown up to a pretty noticeable degree. This episode of the DTFH has been supported by my dear friends at Squarespace. Lots of people out there, especially podcasters, have an annoying opinion regarding podcasting. They say it's oversaturated. Don't start a podcast. There's already a million podcasts. Everyone has a podcast.

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Squarespace. It means they're trapped in their image of themselves and all kinds of things like sociopathy and narcissism are just basically the same phenomenon kind of blown up to a pretty noticeable degree. We're all trapped with that. That's called samsara. That's the notion of being trapped in a loop. So the sort of like the dismantling of the trap in this book, it starts off with,

it's sort of asking you to think about like, what is your mind or what is awareness? What's going on here? And, making the point that I've heard in other books, but he did a more concise job of like, anything you're seeing outside of you is being processed by you, by your brain. And it's you, you're looking, anything you're seeing, the colors, the shapes, patterns, all of it, all of this is like your, your, your, your brain filtering

out all kinds of stuff and weaving together instantaneously this thing called reality. And then it goes into the dream example. So, you know, what is the difference between what's happening here and when you close your eyes and fall asleep? Is there a difference? And that's where, you know, for me anytime anyone's good at talking about that, that's when I start feeling like this awesome, woozy feeling. It's like, you know, it's a scary, it's a scary kind of this. It's, you want to think there is an external, I'm not looking at my mind. I'm not looking at neurological processes happening. I'm seeing some external reality.

And in that distinction, your identity, now you can be a thing. Like now there's a that and a this and I can be a this and let that be that. And that's how you find some foothold and delusion. And so when, so am I interpreting it right? That's what he's saying in the first chapter. It's a, it's a, it's trying to clarify what it is that you call external reality and pointing out that's your mind that you're looking at there. You're seeing your mind.

And that's where that Yogacharan school comes in, it's like it's all mine, you know. But they are progressive. That is not the final iteration of this process because even that is attributing some kind of reality to some kind of cohesive whole thing that you think is one thing. So they don't say all one in the more advanced schools. That you move past the notion of all one because that's still formulating something that you could cling to. Another way of looking at this is if you think of the ingredients of ego.

By ego, everybody, I just mean that sort of crippling sense of self and feeling you have to defend yourself and that you have to be right and all the obvious stuff that underlying that are a whole bunch of things. You could say fear, you could say, but the real one is panic. Yeah, sure. Sure. Panic is like almost the most fundamental experience that we have and almost the closest to actually you talk about enlightenment It's people think enlightenment might be an

Enhanced comfort or some kind of soothing luscious milky quality But I would say probably gonna have to pass through another portal which is the portal of panic that that all the things that youth that you are Fabricating are basically unreal in some really basic sense that all the things that you are fabricating are basically unreal in some really basic sense. Everything including God, including all, everything. Yeah, I'm trying to think what chapter that is. Because I remember, like, because that's what I've been doing

is I'm like really listening to this. I was doing that very, like I was like, okay, well, so, but there is this like fundamental goodness or this fundamental is-ness. Yeah, basically good on your shirt, yeah, that thing. And then of course, when you're thinking about that, it's easy to go theistic there. And then right when I was thinking that,

it got into this point of like, but that's not what this is about. It's actually that is another more subtle, yet real way of clinging. And you know, intellectually, there's a difference between intellectually understanding this. And for me, like as I was over the course of listening to this book, I really did have those moments of relief.

Over and over again, you use this example, you're in a dream, you're getting chased by a tiger. The moment you realize you're having a dream, the tiger won't be scary anymore because you know, it's a dream. It's a dream tiger. There's nothing to be afraid of. In the long dream or the waking dream, the tiger is death, you know, that you're being chased by death. And, and, and, but for that fear to work, some, there has to be something that dies, you know, and so somewhere in the dismantling, experientially no longer feeling this is me, this is the eye, my body is me, my thoughts are me, somewhere in there that fear of death, It does. I'm not going to say it went all the way away for me, but that that sense of being

chased by a tiger, the tiger has to have something to eat. And this line of reasoning or inquiry is really reduces the amount that the tiger has to eat. It stops being things just stop being terrifying. The panic part, I know, and I know that sounds nuts. I like that feeling. This is why I took so much acid when I was a kid. Like, because you feel that kind of panic

if you are on the precipice of- The edge. On the edge. You feel the panic. That means you haven't taken enough acid. When you, there's still something there that doesn't wanna die. And that thing freaks out.

But the moment that thing is gone, it is an amazing place. And when I was there, emptiness made sense to me. The whole thing was like, oh, right, okay. And then also spontaneously, when I'm here, the dream part of me, I can really feel compassion for it. I'm not judging it as much.

I'm not just being hard on it or, you know, it doesn't, because the stakes aren't as high anymore. And, but then, sure as as shit just snapped out of it. And then went back to being like completely absorbed in myself and forget like having a hard time remembering even what that was like. Yeah. The schmuck has a homie device. So it's gonna find its way back.

It does, it's so frustrating. Every time. It's so frustrating, David. I mean, text, did you do, did this ever happen to you? Did you have this experience? The pendulming sort of in and out of Schmuckland into. It's called the Pain of Alternation.

That's one of the four kinds of pain. Wow. The four kinds of pain in Buddhism are like not getting what you want. How does that sound familiar? Getting what you don't want. And then the Pain of Alternation is that pendulum swinging back and forth.

And you know what the fourth one is? It's kind of my favorite. It's all pervasive pain. It's just in everything. And the way I've described it to people is since we're both musicians and working that, there's a ground hum in your studio. Wow.

You make all this great music, but there's just Symphony, we're never really truly peaceful and settled. There's something underneath that is, there's somebody who wants to have that experience to check on it, to secure it, you know. So that's the funny thing is, when people talk about Buddhism, you know, it's not nihilistic. That's a mistake. That's a mistake in perception. So but and we talk about bliss, especially in Vajrayana and Tantra. Yeah, but it's married to this emptiness thing that there's nothing you can grab onto and that's why it's really blissful. Right, you know, right?

Like any good experience when you're really with it and into it, whether it's fighting or fucking or flying or talking, you know, when you're really with it and into it, whether it's fighting or fucking or flying or talking, you know, when you lose track of that thing that wants to keep track of it, there's a lot of energy that is released. Right. Yeah. I never knew that was the pain of alternation. That makes me so happy that that is one of the pains. It makes me feel a little more normal. But the other thing related to the pain of alternation, to me it feels like it gets more pain, like each time it gets a little more painful. It's like, because for me, the any like moments like the moments I had

after reading this book, you know, I had them, you know, when we've been working together, but they've been, you know, really, like they started off as like barely a second. And then suddenly it's like, you know, maybe a few minutes of like not jumping back into the self. And then after reading this book for some reason, it felt like it went on for a long time. Like it lasted longer than it ever has. Wait, what lasted longer? A sense of spaciousness, a feeling of- Oh, I see, you actually had some relief from the-

Yes, yes, yes. And it lasted long enough for me to really start thinking, okay, I did it. I'm out, I'm out of the swamp. I've done it, I'm free, liberated. And then sure, it's then, I even started keeping a little notebook, you know, writing down, I was feeling,

the notebook just slowly devolved into like, I'm pissed off, fuck this, this song. You know, and it's just incredible. Like it's incredibly frustrating. Well, you know, it's a funny dynamic that we're, you know, trying to, what's driving that dynamic to want to relief What's driving that dynamic to want to relief is in itself a this episode of the DTFH. Friends, therapy is amazing. You might have your own thing that you're doing to work on yourself.

I have lots of things that I do to work on myself and also to mess up the work that I have been doing on myself. I like to exercise. I try to meditate regularly. And there was a time when Ramdas told me, you need therapy. And I thought, I wanted to believe he was joking.

He wasn't. And so finally I went and got therapy and it transformed my life forever like there was just a lot of stuff that I'd been shoving in to the dark closet of my soul and a good therapist helps you have the courage to go in there. Check out what's in there and you know what? Not everything in there is bad. That's where it's really sad sometimes in that dark closet of the soul. There's diamonds underneath the bones and so therapy is a beautiful option for all of us. Even if you had a wonderful childhood

and you feel great most of the time, it's still awesome. Why? Because you have a trained listener, somebody who has been their entire lives developing the ability to listen, not just listen, to heal. It is really one of the coolest professions out there, not to brag, I have a bachelor's degree in psychology.

If you're thinking of starting therapy, give BetterHelp a try. It's entirely online, designed to be convenient, flexible, and suited to your schedule. You just fill out a brief questionnaire to get matched with a licensed therapist and switch therapists any time for no additional charge. This is very important. This is not in that I'm not, they didn't write this down, but I think some people don't realize you sort of have to like find a therapist that works for you because you could definitely like get mismatched

and it's just not there. And if you have a really, if they're a good therapist they'll tell you maybe I'm not the right therapist for you. But the point is better help makes this easy. So you can find the right therapist for you. Instead of beating yourself up about things you haven't done in the New Year, celebrate the progress you've already made.

Visit BetterHelp.com slash Duncan today to get 10% off your first month. That's BetterHelp. H-E-L-P dot com slash Duncan. Thank you BetterHelp. What's driving that dynamic to want to relieve is in itself a part of a process of constriction, you know, it's just that they call the cosmic joke, you know Right, and you can't new age your way out of it. That's the thing. I guess I'm here on earth to Maybe Help create the post new age. Yeah good We can't just say oh, it's all beautiful. It's all, you know, it just doesn't really,

there has to be some, you know, what do they call that in drama? De Nommar, you know, the unraveling. Yes. You know, they say this in good drama, you know, the first act you identify the characters, the second act you have to get them up the tree and third act You have to get them down right somehow without that process it There are examples of people who like just kind of pop into some kind of wakeful state But it's it's extremely rare and it's car. It's because their carmas have ripened. It's our karma. That's imprisoning us It's the habits right habitual patterns. That's what that's really and that's oneing us. It's the habits. It's the habitual patterns.

That's what, that's really, and that's one, I have another note for you in my aware of itself document for Duncan, which is, you know, that it's like Google Earth. You consume out and then you see the whole picture and that's what awareness practice does you go. Oh, yeah sitting here I'm agitated at my wife. I'm also kind of feeling

I'm my sense perceptions are still firing. I'm noticing the blue sky, you know all this sort of Multidimensional things happening you see the whole thing And you'll see your karma. You'll see that anger or that glacia and where it's coming from. And it's almost like you're able to see the whole thing. And then to process it, though, you have to zoom back in. You have to go back into the room with your wife.

Open your heart, open your mind, and go through the painful parts of it. So it's zooming out and zooming in. That was the other note I had for you as Google Earth. Interesting. Yeah. Yeah, you I definitely don't. I mean, I get the zoom in part.

It's not the it's almost like forgetting your phone number or something. It's like when you your phone number or something. It's like when I'm in the zoom out part that you're talking about and all the stuff that I'm always reading about or listening to on an audiobook really, like I could see, okay, I see what that is, I see what they're talking about, this is it.

And it seems so clear, just so obvious, so simple, just basic, obvious. And then when I'm zoomed in, it's like, be having amnesia or something like, because I guess because I'm trying to use my mind to get to a place where the mind can't go. And so that part is so frustrating. It's like, well, I know what I experienced. Something happened. There was a profound difference in not just like the way I was feeling, but suddenly I'm like more organized, I'm cleaner,

I'm slowing down, I'm like, I'm not in some idiot rush. And, you know, so it's not just like some, I don't know, happy state or euphoric state. There's external things that start changing with it. Like the way I conduct my life becomes more organized and together and then suddenly it's like, yeah, whatever that was, I know that was something. I wrote about it.

I was there. And then that's where it gets so frustrating, David, infuriating almost. Duncan, I was just in Costa Rica, and there seemed to be many more insects in the room, everywhere. And so I had this little cottage down by the parking lot and every night these little worms would come out and just kind of, they were actually centipedes,

I was told. Oh, geez. And unbelievably slow from our point of view. And I just looked at it, I went like, where are you going? It was just totally unclear where they thought they were going. And I get that, you know, and when I asked one of my teachers once, I saw a worm like that

and I said, do you mean that reincarnation means that we, like the great Duncan Trussell could reincarnate in the body of a worm, how can that be? And the teacher just said, you know how that feels. Wow. So I thought, well, you know, I do know how that feels to be on a vast, it was a sort of vast open space. There was no real target in place. And just kind of inching your way across it. I guess at some point it was looking for food or shelter maybe as part of the equation. And then when you go to them, you know, because we don't, you know, we don't kill those little

people, you know, we try to have sympathy for everybody. But when you go to it, it curls up to a little, have you seen that? You know, they curl up to a little spiral. And that is, I think, what does it think? Does it think it'll be harder for me to step on it if I wanted to? Because it's an, you know, that's what ego is like. It's just like, yeah, nobody will see me being a schmuck here and kind of wildly defensive. I'll become like in a good defensive posture. So, you know, I found myself with three weeks of insect lessons going on. Just like, you know, just the sentient beings of that.

They're annoying in our world, like you think, oh, this is not clean or something, but they weren't really bothering anybody if you really relaxed more than that. Even if one crawled up your nose, it's not really going to do anything bad to you. Right. Yeah, I gotcha. So I guess the point being that we are either going around in circles or we're going straightforward in a vast expanse without a real clear mandate

for where we're trying to get to. And if you look for guidelines in this life, which we're doing, you and I talking about this stuff and all our friends, we're looking for purpose in it. Right. We're looking for purpose in it. Right. We're looking for a meaningful dimension to it. And I don't know, I keep coming up with, there's something about awareness itself that is meaningful.

It has a beautiful quality to it without being attached to it. Yes. The defense mechanism. And there's something beautiful about compassion. Yes. Whenever you see anybody being kind to somebody or a child or anything,

you just glow. You just feel like, you know, we can't get there all the time, but I think that's a, um, you can train in that too. Like all the emptiness is all before the bodhisattva path. Exactly. Pre-bodhisattva. Yeah, that's, I think, you know, I like that. That when I was listening to that book, that suddenly made sense to me. And all the Bodhisattva bullshit that people are pumping out seem ridiculous because it's like, what are you, what do you even, what do you even, what do you even think that means, you know, kindness

or like I'm gonna save all sentient beings. See, this is where it clicked. Because I realized like the way I can now connect to that is somehow in that vow, I'd forgotten I'm one of the sentient beings. So when you're saying I'm going to save all sentient beings, you are saving yourself. You're in that, you're in the mix. And if in like my psychology, the way it just works is leaving myself out of that. So it's like, I'll save all sentient beings, but this one, fuck him.

And so I see why it's like, you first, you have to be able to have real compassion for yourself. And I do see how compassion spontaneously appears when you've shifted into that place, to zoom out. Compassion just happens. They say emptiness and compassion. So technically in the Buddhist, you know, stepwise progression, this deeper understanding of emptiness opens the gate to the Mahayana. That's the official birth of the exercising compassion as a real discipline, with a set of methods, with an understanding of the mechanism of selfishness, and greed, and all that stuff. You have to

really understand that sort of more in terms of understanding how your own mind works. And then naturally there's a sort of more, the spacious quality you're talking about is, like you would look at that little worm and you go like, you know, there's no problem with not freaking out that there's a worm in your room. It doesn't require like some very, I can imagine somebody from Park Avenue getting in there

and calling the management saying, screaming, there's a worm in my room. And you know, that's too crowded in a way. Well, Ragu and I were just having this conversation about compassion. His point of view is that- But who are you talking about? Ragu.

Oh, Ragu, okay. His point of view is that, yes, cultivate compassion for yourself, but while you're doing that, you know, you should be practicing compassion for everyone else. And we're at least right now where I'm at is, my disagreement or misunderstanding about what he's saying is how, how, how can you be compassionate for other things if you can't be compassionate for yourself? How is that even possible? That like you're the first person you're coming in contact with, but that was suddenly I'm supposed to be compassionate for some phosphorescent, sentient mist and Alpha Centauri or whatever. You know, because we're saying the

whole universe. I'm supposed to be compassionate for a, I don't know, an alien somewhere far away or even my neighbors. How could I be compassionate for them if I don't feel any real compassion for my situation? So what did he say to that? He just started crying. I'm just kidding. That's funny. That was really funny.

I think we just agreed to disagree on that one. You know, but we didn't get he didn't see the I'm sure you saw the point of how can you be compassionate to others if you can't be compassionate to yourself. I think he saw that point. But I think he also, you know, rationally is saying, look, just because like you're not feeling compassion for yourself right now doesn't mean you can't at least try to help. You know, it's a pragmatic view. If you're going to, it basically, I think it's based on, look, if you're going to sit

around and wait to be kind to people until you're enlightened, that's not going to work for a happy... There's a middle ground. There's clearly a middle ground. And you know, this is one thing, you know, and probably why I recommended that particular book for you with the kind of intellect that you have and intelligence that you're able to go through that portal and kind of sharpen your sense of reality through the intellectual portal as do I and other people? Some people just want to fumble their way through and feel their way into it

You know like like a blind blues singer or something like that, you know, right? You go. Oh that guy can't read music No, but listen to what he's playing. It's you know, it's fine as it is. So Buddhism's heavy on method. Yeah You know how how to. You said, how do I do that? And that's like a good teacher, I think has to be know what to do, but also how to do it and actually express it in a way that makes sense to you. So for example, when you, if we go, maybe the next book we'll do will be a Bodhisattva, you know, type of practice, but there are very specific ways to become more compassionate to others.

Right, right. You notice certain things like you notice the tendency to blame others. It's called the Lo Zhang slogans, you know, the Mind Training slogans. And you go, notice every time you're blaming somebody else, I mean, you could be alone in your house and you jam your finger on the door and you're ready thinking who left that door mean, you could be alone in your house and you jam your finger on the

door and you're ready thinking who left that door there, you know? Yeah. Well, yeah. And it, you know, it, we, it, we, what's amazing about it is it, it does always seem to be like if we're gonna use the prison analogy Compassion always seems to be the door out like that that or the thing that disrupts that Some sort of loop the loop seems to be glued together by blame lack of compassion The moment I'm gonna interrupt you there because that's right But I think there's a second way of looking at it Which is glued together by ignorance or on awareness? Okay? Yeah to me I would say the awareness is one module of training and the compassion is another

Module of training and they come together At some point you I was I met this hotel And Denver and I don't know if you've ever had this happen at a hotel like I did you I met this hotel in Denver, and I don't know if you've ever had this happen at a hotel. Like I had shows that night. And so I went, I'd gone out, went to my room. The key didn't unlock the door.

You know, that sucks just by itself because you're like, great, my key doesn't work. You gotta go back down the elevator. You get another key. You probably have to use the bathroom. So got a new key, went up, didn't work, you gotta go back down the elevator, you get another key, you probably have to use the bathroom. So got a new key, went up, didn't work, called down, said both, I think my lock's broken. So the manager comes up, tries their key, didn't work.

Manager calls the engineer, the engineer comes up, he's got a key, tries it, does not work. I've got a show, man, I need a stink, I need to take a shower. And so, you know, that's where I saw my self start, the thing in me that's a dick. That's where I start wanting to be like, this, you don't understand, I have a show. What do you mean you can't open this? This is my room, I need to get in there. And somehow I just caught it. I caught it.

And I'm looking at the everyone involved. They all clearly feel terrible. They don't know what to do. They're not malicious. No one sabotage. They're all apologizing. No one sabotage my lock. Then the They're all apologizing. No one sabotaged my lock. Then another guy comes up with a weird tool. In the old days when we used to have the pull locks like to try to open the door. And I did it, man.

I wasn't being a dick. I didn't yell at it. Everyone's apologizing. I kept saying, please, it's not your fault. It's okay. So I never do that, David. I mean, I'm not bragging. I mean, it's awful that I'm never like that, but I'm not I get mad and

especially with a show that I have to do and all that shit. So It did I got it that finally I got my room and And instead of standing in there like coming down from like a rage fit and thinking about all the rotten things I said or the glares I gave, I didn't feel bad. And then the next day, they sent me a giant chocolate sculpture of a door with a out of order sign in front of it. It was so sweet, but I'm, that's like a new universe for me. That's, you know what I mean?

Suddenly that experience never would have happened if I had subscribed to what my ego wants me to do in those situations, which is somehow inflict, get some petty revenge, some delusion that if I'm angry enough, it'll the door will open faster or whatever. So that's the zooming in part. Like you couldn't get that from experience from the aerial view.

You got to live through it. And so that's why the awareness is one piece, but the other piece is that we would call it purification. And it's hard to use that word because people might think it means that it's fundamentally dirty, which is not what it's saying. But we gotta clean up our stuff, you know? Because the glaciers have begun to ferment. It's like, we left some in the fridge for too long

and we're convinced it's good, it's leftovers. We're gonna eat Chinese food from a month ago and then it's just fermented. And then you gotta clean out the fridge every once in a while. So you're saying that cleaning out the fridge or the purification moment is the moment when it's like boots on the ground. Here's the situation where you always do the same fucking thing that always leads you to the same rotten place and you don't do it.

And then in that moment, there is some kind of purification happening. And there are formal practices that cultivate that kind of perspective. One is called the Bajusaf Amantra, which is you are visualizing this very pure white being that is kind of like not clouded or not congested in any way. And there's Amantra that's going with it. you know, not clouded or not congested in any way and you're You know, there's a mantra that's going with it But basically what you're doing is you're resurfacing all your wounded shit and and you're you're what they call dick bandripa, you know the

The clashes and the obscurations that you have you're inviting them to surface to come to the surface and this is like soap now I'm gonna wash them It's like there's other practices like 12 step has a practice like that. You take accountability for what you've done. You clean up your shed. No, that's really interesting. That's interesting because yeah, it's not like the clashes, it's not like these things like are always so prominent. It's a little bit like, I don't know if you've ever seen the way people

get a bot worm out of someone's head. You ever seen those videos? It's fucked up. They have to lure it out. I think when I saw they put a little piece of meat there or something, I can't remember, but this worm sticks its head out and then when it's there you can like pluck the thing out Yeah, but you have to get it to cook you have to get it to come out. Yeah, and no I get it

That's so cool because it isn't like I mean, I'm sure there's some underlying asshole quality to me all the time, but like the focused asshole-ness, it requires a set of conditions around it to fully manifest. And then when it manifests, I get it. If in that moment you short-circuit it by not doing the thing it wants you to do. Yes, that's what you interrupt the flow of it. Wow, and then that leads to boots on the ground, zoomed in, spaciousness, in the sense that the way the universe is reacting to you now becomes, there's more room. I'm gonna give you an Indian head shake

and a Stevie Wonder on that one. Nice, I'll take it. Yeah, boots on the ground and spacious I'm going to give you an Indian head shake and a Stevie Wonder on that one. Nice. Yeah, boots on the ground and spaces at the same time, which is what, you know, honestly, that's the exact quality that I would ascribe to the great teachers that I've ever met. They had boots on the ground. They weren't just spaced out and peaceful. They were really present and could do stuff and boots on the ground, they weren't just spaced out and peaceful. They were really present and could do stuff and boots on the ground, but there was no sense of panic. That's what had been extricated from it. And so there was no

sense of accumulation of the armory of panic, which is all kinds of, you know, elaborate defense mechanisms, you know. And it's quite refined. I don't think we're... I don't know, I'm a gradual path kind of person. I think it takes time and you work on it and you have friends and you have teachers and there are methods. But lying beneath that is a very But lying beneath that is a very present ability to just become awake on the spot. And we do that too. We're going to start doing that with Dharma Moon. We're having a retreat from May 1st to May 5th this year that's going to be featuring this notion called wind horse, which is kind of raising that energy of wakefulness right on the spot.

You just do it now. Right. And let's do it connecting with your body in a certain way and then sort of clearing the atmosphere a little bit and experiencing that kind of, we call it suddenly free from fixed mind. That's cool. You know, because it also shifts that like, you know, there's something really dreadful, at least for me about when that kicks in.

You know, the name for it now is Karen, Karenning, where you like turn in, let me see your manager, that thing. You know, when they're on Instagram, they're like little, if Karen Instagram kind of files, right? Yes. And so when my Karen comes out, it's really like, it's always embarrassing. Right. It can't not be embarrassing. Because usually, the typical Karen has dehumanized somebody at a store or a restaurant, turn them into a, looking at them as some kind of servant glass piece of shit that doesn't deserve anything other than being scolded or taught.

Like this is a good, they always are talking about customer service. This is horrible, this is horrible customer service. And it's, and they just look so bad. They look a million times worse than the person that is, they're angry at. So but, and so there's something dreadful about it when you feel it coming out of, for me it's like, I get restaurant claustrophobia

where like after I'm done eating, I wanna get the fuck out of there. I don't know what that is, but I just don't wanna be in the restaurant anymore. It's because the music's too loud and the sound system sucks and there's too much bass and you're trying to eat and talk to people. Yeah, you just want, it's not even that.

There's no where it's, it is panic. It's like, I just, it's stupid. Give me the fuck out of here, I'm trapped. I gotta pay the bill, like, where's the bill? And it's so dumb and it's always embarrassing. So what you're saying is really wonderful and that it's like suddenly those moments when they come, it's like, wait, here's a chance. Here's a chance. Now you're getting a chance to not to purify your Karen. Okay, so that's a whole another set of teachings that's called

Shempa. Shempa, we may have talked about it before, but you use the glacia eruption as a kind of alarm clock for instead of a, you know, you use the disruption to remind you exactly that this is the opportunity to do just what to practice on the spot. It's very alchemical that way. You're using the neurosis to remind you of, you know, of shifting your relationship to it. Yeah, that's really cool. That's really cool.

So then the moments that you've been avoiding, because to go back to the New Age thing, a spiritual bypass, it's more like you're trying to not look in the mirror to see all the holes in your head where bot flies have laid eggs. You know what I mean? Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha. You're putting on a toupee to cover up the bot flies

in your head. You know, you're trying to overlook the what is really a gritty job. You know, you gotta get some pliers. You gotta get that thing to show itself first. That means everything. Do you do this kind of rap as part of your comedy? No, I never, this would never work in a comedy show.

The bot's light thing and covering it up. I bet there's a version of it that could be people who reacted to that. I don't think in a comedy show I could be like, okay, so everybody, there's something called clashes. No, no, you can't do it clashes. I mean explain what that is. No, no, you can't do it that way. You can do it that way.

No, I agree. But yeah, but I know, like, I don't, it's very hard for me to, I mean, I would love to be able to. Don't get me wrong. You could make that funny. I mean, it's funny talking about plucking butterflies out of your head, I guess.

Yeah, you could make them coming out of other orifices. You, see, it's, see, this, this, this is, as opposed to other like spiritual tradition, traditions, I love this so much. I love it so real and pragmatic and to the point, so that you don't have to hide your Karen, but also you're not just letting your Karen run amuck, you know, and being like, that's just who I am. It's, I'm perfect and my Karen is perfect. It's no, like use those moments, those are gifts when they come.

And then maybe they stop eventually. when they come. And then maybe they stop eventually. Well, that, that, you know, so those four kinds of suffering, you know, which Karen is in all four of those, because you're basically not getting what you want. That's what's happening right there. You're getting what you don't want is this, you know, person that you don't recognize in your neighborhood in a car or whatever it is. And you could say, okay, well, why did the Buddha and other people point that out?

Why did they point that? Because the next iteration, once you talk about the truth of suffering and then the cause of it, is the cessation of it. People skip over that, or they try to get to that too quickly They'd like to make the pain stop like you know Too fast rather than going through the process, but it is a cessation So they would say you know a Buddha and somebody like us who's at the at that kind of fruition stage

Would not be Karen They would have a tremendous sympathy and empathy for the Karen that they used to be and remember about. And the Karen that sometimes wants to serve us but it kind of doesn't have a home anymore. And for all the other Karen's floating around the world because you know, it's not compulsive anymore to try to rebel against that experience. I mean, I think there's a song that's called sympathy for the Karen. The Rolling Stones did it. But you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, that, that is the, uh, that to me, I think for sure I've never, in fact, I have never met anyone who is more focused on the cessation

of suffering. The first two Noble Truths, everyone's infatuated with those. And to the point where, and this is where it gets really weird to me, is that there's almost a kind of fetishization of the neurosis or something. You know what I mean? A real, like attachment to look, I'm all messed up, man. Don't you see I'm a whole, I'm just, even though I'm on the path, I'm still all fucked up and this is how I'm fucked up and I'm really fucked up in this way and that person's fucked up in that way. And you just get fixated on it instead of, it's like having shit on your hands and just be, look at all this shit on my hands.

You see that there's shit all over my hands instead of wash your fucking hands. That's the purification. Yeah, that's cool. That it's so, I mean, I don't mean to like make it so gross but it is some, you can accidentally find yourself using your Karen side is like almost like a trophy or a display of your unique traits or I don't know a way to well

That's one extreme don't the other one is bypassing it. You know, you don't really want to acknowledge your inner Karen Right, you just want to get to the holy land or the blessed blessed place, you know not by any processing of what you're experiencing Anybody I don't know anyone who does that I anyone anyone I've run into in the spiritual universe is always like kind of like hung up on themselves Mostly and doesn't really believe that the cessation of sufferings possible, but the that that But it's worth trying. In that context, again, I try to put this in terms of the context of the actual, where the teachings have been iterated, there's a notion of transmission.

It's very, very important at a certain stage that actually you meet somebody who has, to a certain extent, ripened. And does have some confidence in the fruition of these teachings. And also the qualities, they embody the qualities of it. So in Vajrayana Buddhism, you really can't practice it without that. There has to be, so like Trungri Mataji used to say,

we're not here just to keep some kind of rumor alive for centuries, you know, or some kind of myth alive. It's really process each generation and there are people who manifest and then pass that along. I was very lucky, Duncan. I saw some people that I just unmistakably could invest in. You know what I'm saying? Right. You only looking for, and it was like Dilco Kensei Rinpoche and Carmapa 16. Those beings were, I recognize them as human beings.

They had all the great qualities, but there was something really also simultaneously transcendent. Right. You know, and so then if I lose my Geiger counter, I can think about that that fruition has, it is not only possible, but actually at a certain point you're obligated to retain your connection to it, right? You can't cheese out, you know Right. Yeah. No, I I get it. No, I get it. I mean, I think that's the Tragic that's the cosmic giggle aspect of it is it's like you

Maybe you don't really want us in your suffering. Maybe that's just something you've been saying You know, like when it comes down to it, you don't want to sacrifice, you feel like there's a sacrifice there of something that's very important. And even though you might intellectually know that. You're gonna- Well, it's also, there are subtler and subtler levels of it.

And the way that Trunk Remedies can talk about it, it's like sandpaper, the and subtler levels of it. And the way the way that Trump, Pimper, and Chase and talk about it, it's like sandpaper. The path is like progressive stages of sandpaper. You start with the rough sandpaper, remove the finish. And that's actually scratching the wood. Sandpaper is destroying the wood partially. And then you go to a finer level, and it removes the stain of the previous sandpaper.

You go to a finer level until you're at at a very fine level and the wood feels kind of smooth, but it's been really processed. So progressive, like the book you're talking about, is progressive stages of practice. So I guess a lot of people out there are a little bit shy, maybe, of getting involved with what they think of as a tradition or religion or something like that and wanting to remain free, you know, and kind of footloose in a way. Yeah, at some point I think it is healthy to like not learn every instrument in the orchestra. Right. And get good at it. No, I agree. No, I agree. And it's so rewarding. It really is. Like, it's such an exciting, to me, it's so exciting.

There's so many, right when you think you've really, like, figured it out, like, right when you think you've really got a grasp on it, it just, like, an entire new dimension of it appears in front of you that you'd never considered or thought about. It's so beautiful in that way. I like progressive. I like the slow burn. There's something in it that's so beautiful and so obviously structured by many brilliant minds. It's just incredible. Its age is incredible. Your Ethan was, we were talking about Western psychology. He's like, okay, imagine if Western psychology had been around for 2,500 years. What would it look like? What would it be like? How advanced would it be? Whereas with, and it was a really compassionate thing,

I think I was accidentally, I didn't mean to, but was doing the old like spirituality better than psychology bullshit. And he was saying, yeah, but give psychology to 2,000 more years and see where it is. Yeah. And if you look at it that way, it gets fairly safe to say it's a precocious kid,

a smart kid. Yeah. Because I mean, I'm reading Freud right now. Yeah. You know, like to come out of the monotheistic, heavy-handed, you know, western sort of, you know, you can't really look deeply into the structure of the ego identity. Freud was doing that, Jung was doing that. And there's a lot of people working on both equations. So I think people like you and I have also done therapy, right?

Yeah, of course. Yes. Yeah, totally. I think it's very useful. And definitely, like if we're talking about... What was the name of the practice where when your Karen pops out, Shimpah? Is that what you call it? Shimpah, yeah. Shimpah, so yeah.

And by the way, there's a, Pema Children writes about it in a book called Getting Unstuck. It's a one serious one, Getting Unstuck, that's the concept of it. I'll make that my next one. It's a very cool approach to use the the glacier eruption as an alarm clock. And that can happen in good therapy.

Like the glacier, I think the Shempa, it's probably you could even argue that a lot of the modalities in psychology are some form of Shempa that in a safe space, this thing is getting summoned in a mindful space, which can heal that thing to some degree. David, tell me about this class you have coming up. Well, for those of you, there's so many folks who have been sort of tuning into our conversations over the last bunch of years. And so I think some people will know and other people won't that we have a platform that's called Dharma Moon,

d-h-a-r-m-a moon dot com. And so all of the upcoming trainings are there. And what we did was we just developed once the pandemic started, we developed a virtual platform So people are online all over the world and we have the sent the original centerpiece was a mindfulness meditation teacher training program And that's three times a year. So We have one of those coming up that starts in late March Maybe we could post these on the on the web. Yeah, sure. They'll be at DuncanTrossell.com. So it'd be easy for people to find. It starts March 22nd. But as a prelude to that, you and I have often done an info session, which is going to be February 5th. And I think this

podcast will be out before then, so I'm going to invite everybody here. Come February 5th, and here Duncan and I talking about Beginner's Mind mind that's the topic and and then we'll have it also woven into that will be an info session for this teacher training program and opportunity to to learn about it if you're interested you should come to that register for that info session and we'll put the links up on it. So that's a five weekend course over about four months. And I've been amazed, we just finished one. There's so much love in the room at the end of it. You know, we're talking about meditation stuff,

but people really bond over it and it's virtual. So it's been a very happy gathering and a lot of dunkites, We call them dunkites in there. Dunkites? No, that's bad. That's it. No, they're the family, David. This is the family.

Okay, well, the family sounds like Charlie Manson. I know! Oh, you like that? Okay. Hey, don't throw the baby out with the bath water, man. Ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha That's a good cartoon a New Yorker cartoon Charlie Manson well, you know Charlie Manson in the prison cafeteria You know that one right no he's sitting in the corner. He's saying Jesus. Is it hot in here or am I crazy? You wouldn't crazy So he's like a fox. Well, okay. I mean, I'm gonna not

Crazy like a fox. Well, okay, I mean, I'm gonna not go down. I'm just kidding, I'm just kidding. I'm not going down that rabbit hole with you. You know, in my acid days, I would watch videos of Charles Manson because I realized that when you're on acid, he really makes sense. It's like, you know, like when you're on ecstasy

and like EDM music sounds good, you're suddenly like, oh, I see why people like this. When you're on acid and you watch Charles Manson talk, it's like, whoa, I get it now. I see what he's saying here, man. Well, you know what though? It is like that worm. We all do know how that feels.

Yeah, right. To push hard, to dominate a situation, to, you know, there dominate a situation to you know There's a disconnect from some things I think we could all agree that something got disconnected along the way But there might be a mixture mixed in with the disconnect You know well, that's why it was so dangerous because there was mixed in with the lunacy mixed in with the right, you know Narcissism mixed in with the hyper inflated personality. There's bits of truth that he'd connected to for real, which gave him his power.

If he didn't have that, there would be no, you know, what he would, Geraldo wouldn't want to talk to him, you know, it's the fact that mixed into the like, madness with some kind of like real existential philosophy that has its roots and a lot of other like Scientology, we got into that. There's all kinds of stuff. But, and also PS would not recommend the practice if you're on a psychedelic of watching Charles Manson videos. I wouldn't recommend it. Well, and just to bring it down to kind of simple, certain principles are ground principles

like ahimsa, not harming, you know, compassion and like a mindfulness. So if we, you know, create our fundamentals out of those, then everything that develops which has sort of cutting edge inside and stuff like that will not turn into a nightmare for people. That's why it's, you know, that's why there is like some kind of like cautionary like advice with this stuff. That's I think that's why it's progressive. That's so it's to as much as possible avoid the situation where someone somehow maintains

their attachment to identity and yet has some grasp on the transcendent. And in Varshiana Buddhism, there's this very serious warning given before you undertake those kind of practices. And it basically says you could become an egomaniac at a very high level. So you're told that right away, not to be very humble. You know? Yeah. So you're told that right away, not to be very humble.

So just coming back to Dharma Moon though for a second, we have that info session coming up on February 5th with you. And then we have that course will start on March 22nd. You mentioned Ethan's course, which is just, you know, might be underway by the time this is on the air, but still possible. And the other thing is we're having our first library tree. May.

Since November, sorry, May 1st to 5th, and that's open to the public. So if we'll post some of those up for everybody, and we always have a way of people asking questions and learning more about it, I usually do like 15 minute calendar sessions with people who are thinking about doing it, but want to know more about it. We're trying to put this training together in a way that's not sectarian, that's not religious in its tone, it's not ritualistic to the extent that these things can become, and appeals to people also who want to engage in the world, you know, active participants in the world, the activities as opposed to the finances.

Wonderful. You must take one of these classes, you will enjoy it and learn a lot. And obviously, David's a great teacher. So I hope you all sign up. David, thank you so much for doing this week's podcast. Thank you, Duncan. And for guiding me through, helping me crawl along the floor of reality so I can burrow into someone's head and find a place to nest. Thank you, David.

I can't think of a better companion for the journey. Thank you. Hare Krishna, thanks, David. Albert Einstein said, everything should be made as simple as possible, but not simpler. At ErgoCentric, we agree. Our office chairs are fully adjustable so they can be customized for a perfect fit.

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this as a job. I love you. Hare Krishna.