Duncan Trussell Family Hour - 635: David Nichtern

Episode Date: August 28, 2024

David Nichtern, author, meditation teacher, and David from The Midnight Gospel, re-joins the DTFH! On Tuesday, September 3rd, 2024, Duncan will join David for a FREE live online event exploring imposter syndrome and the journey of becoming a meditation teacher. Click here for more info and to reserve your spot. They will also discuss the Dharma Moon Meditation Teacher Training beginning in October 2024. Click here for more info about the Dharma Moon 100 Hour Mindfulness Meditation Teacher Training. You can learn more about David on his personal site, DavidNichtern.com, where you can also find a catalog of all his incredible books, including Awakening from the Daydream: Reimagining the Buddha's Wheel of Life.

Hi, pals. It's me, Duncan, and we've got a great guest for you. It's David from The Midnight Gospel. His name in this part of the multiverse is also David. He's my meditation teacher. He's written a lot of great books, which you should check out. One of them, Awakening from the Daydream, is just an incredible analysis of the cosmology that shows up in Buddhism, where there's all these various realms. You happen to be in the human realm, but from this book's perspective, you can be human, but in the realm of the gods. You could be human, but in the animal realm, you could be human, be in the hell realm. So he's just a brilliant person, and I've been working with him for a long time.

And in fact, we are doing a podcast, a live podcast. What is it? Week after next, September 3rd. You can find out about that by going to dharmamoon.com and just sign up. It's free. And if you enjoy this, then you can come hang out with us live. And there's questions and stuff. You can ask questions. And it's fun.

They're always great. So I hope that you will try that out. And I'll see you week after next. But before, why don't you watch this episode with David Nichtern. Hare Krishna. David, welcome back. It's really good to see you. It's good to see you too, Duncan.

You know, first thought, best thought. You know, and I don't know why, but when I, you know this, many people know this. I went through what, a ketamine phase, which is a nice way of saying I was addicted to ketamine. But for some reason, one of my favorite things to watch when I was sort of teetering on what they call the K-hole was this lecture that Chogam Trungpa gave. And, you know, he's got so many great ones online. I don't know that we could even show it

without getting into trouble. But in this lecture, he's talking about how he went to a peace conference, a harmony conference in India. And how at the end of the conference, nothing had changed. Everyone was just the same. But the only difference was now the people could say, I went to the Harmony conference. That was all that had happened. No impact at all. And I really, I don't know why Academy, like I would watch that over the way my kids watch, the way my kids watch,

the way my kids watch a show over and over and over again. I would just sit and watch. It wasn't just that though. Then that was when he took like a flower. He's like, he had taken some kind of tree, a beautiful thing from the mountains and he was showing it to them. You know, look how perfect this is. It's not trying to be perfect. It's just as fine as it is. But there was something so mind-blowing in his ability to

convey these really deep things. He was so charismatic. But I just wanted to talk to you about that concept of the spiritual retreat and specifically to start off the retreat he was talking about, which is one where nothing fucking happens. You go there, nothing happens. You leave, maybe you've had some good conversations. Have you ever been to a retreat like that? Can you turn up my headphones a little bit, please? Am my audio is coming in okay?

Okay, great. There, that's it. Well, as usual, synchronous. Because I was just last week at the Art of Living Center here in Boone, North Carolina, the Ram Dass legacy retreat. Wait, David, let me, the Ram Dass Legacy Retreat. Wait, David, let me stop you one second. I apologize. I just want to make sure my audio is good because it's coming through these headphones

and it doesn't sound as clear as it usually does. So I think it could be... It's fine if I... Yeah, let me try these other cans. Check, oh yeah, that's way better. There's nothing I love more than ignoring a technical issue during a podcast and there's never been a time that hasn't bit me in the ass at the end.

So just wanna make sure we're getting the audio. So yeah, just answer the, like act like that didn't even happen. You guys can cut that out and then answer the question if you don't mind. Yeah. So it's synchronous what you're saying because I was just last week at the Art of Living Center in Boone, North Carolina for the Ram Dass Memorial Retreat. I taught several workshops and then played with Krishna and Das as per usual. But before we started, the teachers got together and said, like, what are we doing?

Are we creating any kind of bubble here? Yeah. And a couple, particularly because there's so much happening politically in the world right now and so forth. So there was some discussion about that. And actually I have some kind of fun quotes from, from Trungpa Rinpoche and from Thukka Ujjain Rinpoche, highlighting the difference between withdrawing from the world as spiritual practice and engaging the world.

Okay, cool. In really broad terms. Should I read them? I'd love to hear them, yeah. Okay, because it might just get us launched on the topic you're talking about. So, Tulku Ujjan Rinpoche was a very, very famous Tibetan lama in the last previous century, which is also the previous millennia. Isn't that cool? Wow. Millennium, yeah. So, and he has four sons who are like major Tibetan Buddhist teachers these days, like Minjure Bhutche, Sukhiyur Bhutche, and Chikinima, etc. So he was a very, very important teacher and he lived in retreat. He kind of was in a retreat hut and he had a box that he sat up in

and he never laid down. So he was just there in retreat and people would visit him. And he was very prominent for giving the most potent, the most direct type of meditation instruction called the pointing out instruction, a nature of mind. And so he was a renunciate, you know, even though he had four kids, that's I guess a Tibetan style renunciation, you know, a little different. But he said, this is a quote from him, the Buddha himself by his life example showed the way for future practitioners by leaving behind his kingdom, his palace, and all its many luxuries. He did so with no more attachment than if they were a gob of spit. Once we have spat it out, after it's lying there in the dust, we will never try to take the spit back, will we? That's the traditional example that the Buddha gave for practitioners. If it were not the example to emulate that, he would not have acted like that.

If there were another way to be, he would have done it that way. He would have set a different example. So this is the premise of pulling back with drawing, entering the kind of generative force field from which all these karmas and all these, you know, situations emanate, which is of course our mind and our patterns of mind. And then... That must feel good for Buddhist kids to read that. feel good for Buddhist kids to read that. Well, daddy thought you were a gob of spit. And he definitely didn't want to lick you back up, you fuck. Well, and then the last part of the quote is, unless we give up our normal tasks and distance ourselves from them, we'll have no opportunity to change our minds.

Deep-rooted negative happens. Right? I mean look this simply won't happen Okay, so I am going I'm so interesting you bring this quote up because I was in an earlier podcast was having this We're exploring this concept now You know what I love about him and a lot of the teachers you've introduced me to in comparison to the Western Buddhist teachers is I think what you get there is what I like to imagine.

That's Buddhism. It's not this like, you know, try to be nice to the barista. It's, you know what I mean? And I don't mean to downplay like compassion teachings and stuff like that. try to be nice to the barista. And I don't mean to downplay like compassion teachings and stuff like that, but then you get that, which is not to like reduce it in an idiot way. But what he's saying there is, you gotta get out of the matrix and it's not fucking easy. And the matrix, it doesn't even look bad in the way that you would expect.

You don't see the creepy dudes in the suits who can move really fast. You don't see the weird technological spider things crawling around. So you're like, Jesus Christ, this is terrible. It's your family. It's your life. It's whatever the life is that is around you right now. Whatever it may be. Kids, no kids, whatever the thing is. And to hear something like that is very offensive for a lot of people. Me included, some part of me is offended because it's like,

dude, I'm not bailing on my kids. I don't care. They're not spit. I'd suck them back up if they were spit. If there were any excretory function, poop, piss, if my kids were pissed, I'd try to drink it back up if then I got to be with my kids. Let me now render the counterpoint. Okay. Because this is the whole point. This is a setup here of two seemingly conflicting views and we have to see if they are or not. So this is from Trungpa Rinpoche and it's got a different angle coming in so see how this lands. Trungpa Rinpoche is saying meditation is not a

matter of withdrawing. You are not drawing in retreating from the world, in fact you are getting into the world. Meditation is a way of developing clarity, which allows us to see the precision of daily life situations, as well as our thought process, so that we can relate with both of them fully and completely. The everyday practice, and here is, you know, probably the meeting, the bridge, okay.

The everyday practice is simply to develop a complete acceptance and openness to all situations and emotions and to all people experiencing everything totally without mental reservations and blockages so that one never withdraws or centralizes into oneself. Okay, so that's cool. So these are two very great teachers.

No doubt about it. Also one of them is like in a hut, sitting on a bench and probably misses his kids a lot and has to keep saying like, it's spit man. I don't miss them. It's just a blob of spit. No, really. Why do I keep saying they're spit?

Why do I have to really emphasize I don't care? So. Wants to get out of that hut, go hold his babies. There's more. There's another teacher, okay, which is Namkhai Norbu Rinpoche, who was another teacher came to the West, he lived in Italy a lot. And he was famous for teaching Dzogchen, which is the sort of very progressive, very simple, clear, elegant way to relate to the present

experience as the Dharma itself, as the teaching itself. Just be there with it. So here's what he said. It's not so easy to make heavy sacrifices and go on retreat. Let's face it, Duncan, even for a weekend, right? It's hard. And then he says even seven years of retreat passes very quickly. You are not flying in the sky like a mahasiddha. You still need to eat. But at the end of the retreat, you are not realized. You have no job, no family, no money. What do you do now?

It's not so easy to become realized as you should think a little. So you should think a little. In Sogchen, which is this bridge teaching that we're talking about, the teaching doesn't ask you to go live on a mountain or do some complicated practice. The teacher simply asks you to be present. When walking, eating, doing everything in daily life, you try to learn how to be present. So if you put those three together, I don't think it's one or the other, Duncan. It's somehow we have to really understand the scope, the range of all those parameters. Okay.

I think what they have in common is each represents a... I guess, depending on what side of the apocalypse you're on, you're either what? You're always... No matter where you're at, you're either pre or post apocalypse, I guess, depending on what side of the apocalypse you're on, you're either what? You're always, no matter where you're at, you're either like pre or post apocalypse, I guess, like no matter what, assuming there's inevitably an apocalypse, right? So they're apocalyptic, each of them in the sense that the, you know, it's so, you like to imagine, I'm free. This is the fantasy, I'm free. I could totally live a different life. Any of us could. At any second, I could do this or that differently or do, go radically, do something radically differently.

And so the fantasy is generally, at least for me, there's spatiality involved, you know what I mean? Which is like, if I move there, okay, I'm going to move there and start, I'm going to go to India, I'm going to move to start, I'm gonna go to India, I'm gonna move to India, I'm gonna find a guru or go to some pretty place and sit down and then, oh yeah, then it happens. And so you go there and then you realize, oh fuck, that I didn't leave the bubble at all, I'm still in the fucking bubble.

In fact, the person I know, Jason Louvo, I interviewed yesterday, he was talking about going up in Northern India, up in the mountains with a guru and looking out of the beautiful mountains and thinking like, nah, they don't look real. Like it's just another fucking thing, right? Like you've changed the scenery.

Sure. Right? But maybe the reason these, all of them have like a sort of prick to them, is it's more pointing out that we're in a more claustrophobic situation than it might appear. That the reality we're sort of stuck in, our children or whatever, it's not necessarily literally our children, but our attachments are so profound that even when you remove the thing you are attached to, oh, those are my kids or I'm attached to my car, I'm attached to my girlfriend, I'm attached to my job, the tentacles of your mind will find another thing immediately to glue on to, and thus,

no realization, nothing has even happened other than you've changed the set. That to me, I think, is why it's like really on some level kind of disturbing. Because no one wants to be reminded, like if you've gotten comfortable in the mind shaft that's collapsed around you, and this is your new normal, and the other people collapsed into the mind shaft, or like, just, can we not talk about the time this thing collapsed on us?

Like, when we used to be in, there was like, I don't know, sky and whatever. Like, this is it now, we're in the dark forever. You know what I mean? That's what I mean. I think that's why it gives some people a real feeling. Because... Well, and it's not saying any of them, none of them are saying as it is, as you're currently operating, your current operating system is going to suffice in a way. There's an interruption, you know, the Buddhist approach is that some Sāra needs

to be interrupted and there's some very specific instructions how to do that. And it's a subtle thing because it's the subject object, you know, kind of like we project onto the world and we're constantly bumping into our projections left and right. That's what we're stuck with. We're not stuck with the external situation exactly. We're stuck with our own projections, right? Yeah. And it's so annoying. And it's so tiresome. At first, it's really interesting. At first, it's so fascinating to be up in your head. And in fact, there's some virtue that people assign to that situation of constantly calculating your rainbow wheel, constantly spinning your mind, burping out ideas that you assign some value to based

on your life goals or whatever. I had the epiphany, the light bulb moment. Oh no, this one's really it. And you fall for it so many times, the light bulb moment. And then eventually you start realizing like these aren't doing anything for me anymore. The light bulb moments are just the same as the, they're just a different, it's a very glowy form of psychological flatulence, you know? It's like if, look, if I'm sorry, I always degrade our conversations to an idiot level, but it's like, I'm sorry, if you're farting phosphorescent, glowy, pretty stuff, it's still a fart.

Yeah, it's- Well, that's called the god realm, right? That's the god realm. Yeah, right. The gods love to smell their farts. Well, no. I mean, the notion is that the projection is glowy and kind of, you know, like sustainably positive.

You know, so the key thing here, though, to consider maybe is that renunciation, which is the key element here of actually renouncing the samsaric approach, is the foot of meditation. That's what they say. It's the foundation. And both of those things, like if you're going to practice Dzogchen properly, it's not so easy because people think, they mistakenly think, oh, this is the easy path, but it requires you to be paying attention all day long. In the other 23 hours and 40 minutes, you're not doing formal practice. It's saying you have to be working with it then. And what are you renouncing? You're renouncing your habitual pattern of just kind of sleeping, sleepwalking through life. Yeah. So either way, you're renouncing.

It's just- You're letting go of something. I mean, one of the few drugs that I haven't gotten addicted to is heroin. I just use it recreationally, David. I'm not addicted. I mean, actually, I take prescription heroin. But the... That would be hilarious. That's funny. But the heroin kick is apparently brutal. You get sick. And I think that that Dzogchen path, renouncing, even though it might not even sound

like renouncing to some people, which is like, yeah, so what? Yeah, you're just in the moment all the time. That's what am I renouncing? It's like, just try it. Just try to break up with the habitual projections, because it's a messy fucking breakup. They don't like it. They will convince you that you have just essentially ruined your life. Like, well now what are you, it's like any bad breakup. And also actually it's maybe a good breakup. If you're breaking up with someone

and they say anything along the lines of, you're nothing without me, it's like, oh Jesus Christ. Thank you, you're nothing without me. It's like, oh, Jesus Christ, thank you. You're nothing without me. That's what some Sara is actually saying, you're nothing without me. And it's right. You actually are nothing without it. Yeah, exactly. But it's not a negative nothing. Right. But it sure makes you think it's a negative nothing, because it's got you convinced that anything good coming out of you is coming out of this secondary simulated reality that you're

constantly creating in your head, right? That's the idea. And it's really convincing, man. It's really convincing, man. It's so convincing. You really believe that without that micro pause between the moment and how you react to it, and I don't mean in the right way, I mean, the planning situation. Like if you're stand up, you're doing stand up and you're up there and you realize, oh my God, I'm thinking about the joke ahead of this joke. Meaning I'm not with these people at all.

They might as well, I might as well be one of those Disney robots right now, because I'm not with them. I'm thinking I'm with some future audience that doesn't even exist. I might as well not be up here. You know, but, you know, this, the, so, I have so often been convinced that should I just interact with the world in the moment as I am, trusting whatever comes next, I will fail. People will hate me. I will not be successful in any way. I don't just mean in like career ways.

I mean, God help you if you just allow yourself to be as you are in the moment. And I'm saying this is sort of what the... this is what samsara tells you. You need me as a filter. You need me as something to shape who you are into something people can relate to in a positive way. And without me, you're nothing. You're useless. Without me, you're nothing. That's a good title. Yeah. Without me, you're nothing. You're useless. Without me, you're nothing. That's a good title. Yeah. Without me, you're nothing.

By Satan. Yeah. Will could have a picture of Buddha on the cover, you know? Yeah. Because it's my Buddha also. Yeah. But the nothing, this, and I think it's important to differentiate, the nothing that you will be confounded by if you decide to start studying Buddhism, it's a very different nothing than the nothing that the world tells you about.

The nothing they're talking about is a poverty state, a fool, a buffoon, an unsophisticated, unrefined buffoon. A loser. A loser, dude! You're a fucking loser! You gotta think before you speak, and what you say must be carefully formed for whoever you're with, so that you can fully manipulate them into believing you're this fake fucking thing you're presenting. And if you don't do that, you're not a professional. And it's, you know, whatever.

I'm just saying, it's like that emptiness that I have been confounded by in Buddhism, it's the polar opposite of that reality. Yeah, that's nihilism. You're talking about nihilism. And I think that is the sort of the vengeance of some... Sorry, that's the threat. It's a nihilistic form of nothingness. Right. the threat is like, you'll be, it's a nihilistic form of nothingness. Right. It's very similar to like, do you know anything about anarchism? As a philosophy?

Yeah, not like the A that you put on your skateboard, but like, I'm gonna throw a fucking beer can at that dog. Not like that, but like, in the sense of like a humanist philosophy saying, you know, we're not bad. Like if you get us together and there isn't some central government, we don't immediately start killing each other. Actually a kind of form naturally emerges where there isn't, or if there is a leader,

the leader is just a leader in the moment because they're best at what that moment requires. And then in another moment, there could be another leader who's best at what that moment requires. And then a lot of what we think about, what would happen to humanity minus some government, is a ghost story that governments tell to make us think we need them. And I think this is sort of the way the samsaric mind also presents itself. It is a crucial aspect of functioning in the world. And without it, you're crazy, you're a psycho. But coming back to your comment about preparing

for doing your comedy show. So in terms of like comparing that to teaching a meditation class, let's say. Okay, so here's what has been advocated from my teacher in terms of doing either actually, is that you do prepare properly. You actually do the preparation. Yeah. Thoroughly. You don't just go and go, I'm going to wing it because I'm going to be here now the whole way through. You thoroughly prepare. Then you take your seat as the comedian on the stage or as a meditation teacher, and you don't wing it at that point, but you let go and you allow your preparation to come

through in a kind of spontaneous and cohesive way. And it's amazing how that happens. And you can tell if somebody's not prepared, you know, and you can tell if they're over prepared and clinging to it as they're presenting. Right, Right. So, but that is what something like when Trungpa Rinpoche taught us how to teach meditation, that's what he said. You should prepare it thoroughly and then take your seat and then let it flow through. Well, you know, this is kind of the trick that the really great teachers do.

I mean, you see Ram Dass give any lecture and you imagine he's winging it, but then you see pictures of him. He's got just so many notes that he's using, but he's so good at just what you said, like having some general map that he's moving through whatever the particular terrain is, but also completely comfortable going off the trail that he was initially setting off on based on the audience and the vibe and like some intuition. But people who haven't seen the notes probably think, yeah, all I have to do is like eat some mushrooms and just start yapping. Yeah. Which you know, every once in a while that can work as a comic. Like every once in a while you can wing it,

but it's always a roll the dice. And you always have your jokes in the background to like pull you out of a smoldering crater that you landed in. Because you're fucking hubris. That's a good chapter title too, the smoldering crater. Smoldering hubris crater, which so many of us have landed in where your brain betrays you and you're like, come on,

just right now, write a perfect joke. Just please, and nothing comes out. And you're just talking. Can you make up a joke on the spot? I mean, I have, I mean, but it's all, it's very much like, you know, I think probably with teaching, you know, I love watching meditation teachers at these retreats

as from the comedic perspective, because I recognize punch lines, and they have punch lines, and I recognize, like, a bit, and they have bits, even though the bits, they're lucky because they don't have to make them funny. They actually, their version of laughter is some kind of moment where the audience, like, there's a catharsis or something because everyone has an epiphany simultaneously. It's beautiful. But when you see it happen more than once or twice, oh, I know that joke, I know that gag,

I know it's coming. But also you see them divert from that and they suddenly are saying things you've never heard before. Maybe that's other jokes that you just haven't heard, but there are similarities. And so the best teachers, when you're listening to them, it doesn't feel like a one-sided conversation. It feels like they are fully engaged with the audience, which is always unique.

And they aren't just sort of, you know, regurgitating something they've said a million times. They're not on the teleprompter, you know? And so there's a, but if they're really good at it, which a really good comedian, you know, I know people, I've met people after shows who are like, how do you guys do that? Like you just say funny stuff up there

and how do you do that? It's like, are you fucking, these are written out, like word for word and evolved over countless sets. But if you do a good job, they feel like you're just yapping up there. And anyway, yeah, I could do it in the moment. I have done it in the moment, but it's very, it's case to case based on the audience, based on events that are happening in the room, based on mood states, based on like any given

thing and then from that something spontaneous can appear. And usually that will become a new joke. Well, and if you track it back, like in the teaching Buddhism, in some manner, shape or form, it all goes back to this, this iteration of the Buddha. So for example, you often, as a Buddhist teacher, you'll take a set of those teachings and kind of focus on them for a workshop and then unpack them with that group of people and try to do it in a way that's relevant to them and accessible to them in their own language. So for example, what's the first, you take the Buddha, he had some kind of experience of, you know, actively realizing what you were talking about before is the nature of the projections and the nature of the natural line.

And it kind of stuck, he kind of clicked in with it. And then he didn't speak for seven weeks, which is an interesting, I think a comedian didn't speak for seven weeks, you might have a problem with your agent, it's possible. That would be really cool if you could pull off doing standup without talking. Well, it's bordering on John Cage, you know what I mean?

Like the composition set, like there's no notes. But at the end of the seven weeks, there was a spontaneous exchange with his previous colleagues in which he iterated the four knowable truths, which is like, you know, maybe people have heard about that, maybe they haven't, but it's a completely rock bottom expression of the kind of actuality of the situation. but it's a completely rock bottom expression

of the kind of actuality of the situation. And the first one is the iteration that our experience is pervaded by suffering. So there's where people would go, wait a minute here, this is a kind of a bum trip or a nihilistic trip. And it goes on, it has good news because it says you can look at the cause of it, the origin of the suffering, which is, oh, that's interesting.

You could get to the bottom of it and then you can actually cut through it. That's pretty good news that you could cut through that kind of pattern, habitual negative kind of thought patterns. And then here's how to do it, which is the fourth one, the eightfold path. So that's a very complete pitch.

So I was sitting at lunch with some of the people at the retreat last week. And this one woman is doing therapy with people using psychedelics. Boy, is it getting to be a big deal out there. Like everybody's doing psychedelics and therapy. And she's saying, I've had a very fortunate life because I've had no trauma, significant trauma. And so I can work with people who've had trauma and like, I'm not kind of caught up in it. And I just went like, you know, let's just, you know, let's see for a minute here. I said, okay, so here's the first noble truth, the pervasiveness of suffering. You're saying you have, you're liberated from that. So I'm all ears because if it's true, I want to supplicate you and ask for teachings

if that's possible. And then I said, let's, let me frame it this way. There's actually three kinds of suffering that are iterated, that are identified. And the first one is not getting what you want and getting what you don't want. Yeah. You clean, you good? Okay. How about that guy who called you last week and you thought you were in love and now he's gone AWOL on you. You're not getting what you want,

did you get what you don't want? Second one is the pain of alternation, which is you have a good days and your bad months, as I used to say when I was married. You know, we have our good days and your bad months as I used to say when I was married you know and then the actual alternation between feeling like it's it's in sync it's happening and then you do two shows at a club first one's killing it second one's bombing yeah that's that's suffering in itself the third one which is probably my favorite is all pervasive. And I've likened

that to a ground hum in a studio. You could be playing the best music in the world, you could have the best band, and there's underneath it. So if somebody says, look, I'm liberated from those three experiences, I really want to hear what they have to say, because likely it's going to be probably not true. Right. Right. So as you were saying earlier, how would you cut through those experiences? You would have to be completely okay with whatever happened on a profound level that is called one taste. You actually don't care if it's a shit or a milkshake. Well, you know, and honestly, there's not that much of a difference once you've had COVID. You can't taste anymore.

It fucks up your, which is really great because shit's cheaper than milkshakes. And less sugar. Do you still have that? Do you still have that? No, I can still, my smell, look, I don't wanna turn this into like my fucking COVID problems. I'm fine. I just, my smell, look, I don't want to turn this into like my fucking COVID problems. I'm fine. I just, my smell's all fucked up forever probably, but that's fine.

And I mean that, whatever. I'm used to the new smell and like, it's fine. But yeah, the, so, okay. So this, what you're talking about here. This is offensive because you're asking me to give up the joy of temporarily not suffering as much because I really like that a lot. It's like, here's one of the great things in Texas. It is so fucking hot. Like it is, it's hot beyond hot.

Like it's hot and it's like, imagine a giant dog, a giant invisible dog was walking above you with just breathing on you. It's like that kind of heat, like wild heat. But what do you know what you get with that kind of heat? You walk into anywhere where they see. And oh yeah, baby, paradise. You cool off and it's so nice.

And this alternating kind of suffering, the game is, oh my God, this is so fucked up. I can't remember which comedian was talking about this. It's so fucked up. He was talking about something called a whore's bath. Have you ever heard of this? The pimp beats up the hoe for whatever thing, didn't bring back enough money or whatever.

Now he's physically abused this poor person. And you know what he does after beating her? He draws a nice bubble bath for her, gives her a nice bath. And now she just loves him even more because he is a good person. He's giving him, and this form of manipulation, like locks them into this addictive relationship

with this monster. And you know what? So this whore's bath is what we're doing here, essentially. If you want there to be a differentiated reality because you're afraid of the blandness of one taste, which God knows if there's a restaurant called One Taste, no one's going. I want different tastes.

I want a vegetable medley. I want spice and I want to, you know, one taste, fuck that. And then if we look at that from an existential perspective, a lot of people see that as just like great. So nothing then. So like, so I just walk around like some stupefied zombie, like, oh, it's hot. Great. Oh, air conditioning.

Great. Oh, I'm in love. Great. Oh, my heart's broken. Great. You're asking me to give up the joy of life, which comes at a cost. The joys, the transient joys of life, I pay for them with the valleys and crags and pits

that I throw myself into and then claw my way out. And you know what I'm saying? So it's like, people get really offended by this idea of one day. Well, and you know, what you're describing, the alternate possibility is what's called equanimity. That you don't, and all it means is you don't go so high with the highs and you go so low with the lows.

There's a little more, like putting a limiter on a microphone. By the way, you should ask your producer, your microphone was crackling a little bit. Yeah, I heard a crackle. Did you hear a crackle? It might just be Riverside that you're hearing. I did hear a crackle, but also, hello, hello, hello? I don't know. Can your producer check if it's being recorded that way? You get any cracks, crackles or splops? No. It's okay.

The only small crackle I heard was from his mic, but I Yeah, it's the internet and like it'll be fine. Yeah, look, equanimity. And again, this this equanimity thing, I'm telling you, man, this is not like this isn't what we're being taught in the world in general, not anything. What we are being taught is that the ideal life is one in which you find some way out of the day-to-day drudgery. You go to Tulum, you go to a rave, you go to wherever,

and that's what you take pictures of. And that's what you post on your socials. to Tulum, you go to a rave, you go to wherever, and that's what you take pictures of. And that's what you post on your socials. You know what you don't post on your socials? Like, look, I'm doing 35 right now in my car. You know what I mean? The things that you're always doing. Hey, look, oh shit, my towel. I'm gonna take a picture of my mildly damp towel

because I don't have any dry towels. Oh, take a look. Here's my unmade bed. Oh, look, here's a kind of boring morning sky in the morning. You know what I mean? Like, even though that is the majority, we have not been taught equanimity.

We have been taught equanimity or all those moments in between the trips in the anomalous moments of hedonism are kind of like a waste of time. You know, they're like into to try to to view those moments as anything more than that Well, and that's a blasphemy in a transactional culture that seeks to that that tells the story of Once you get this shiny bobble here, right? Oh, what you know why you're fucked up. You're fucked up because you Like look at your vacuum cleaner. Look at because this is you know, you see a commercial. Oh Like, look at your vacuum cleaner. Look at it. Because you see a commercial.

Oh my God. I love watching commercials because the product, whatever it is, is just a fucking vacuum cleaner, right? It's a vacuum cleaner. It might look like a spaceship, but it's just a fucking vacuum. But the person with that vacuum cleaner, like Like they have achieved realization. Their family is laughing suddenly. Yeah, sure, shit was fucked up in the marriage and Frank cheated on me.

And one of the fucking kids like, has been like kicking the dog and seems really like it. I got this vacuum cleaner. Look at our family now. Now you're a good parent. You're a shit parent if you don't get this vacuum cleaner, look at our family now. Now you're a good parent. You're a shit parent if you don't get this vacuum. So you know what I'm saying? The way we're taught via commercials is that an object or a thing you don't have will not create equanimity, but rather elevate your entire life system to a perfect level of constant bliss.

You know what I mean? And so- And well, and the only problem with that is it's not sustainable. And if you look at everything that's happening in the world, unsustainability is written all across it in a watermark. Oh, yeah. A lot of things are not sustainable because of what exactly what you're talking about, the drive towards a kind of heightened experience

of promise and pleasure. Right. And we, so nobody is nervous. Our nervous systems are wired up the wrong way right now. And to unwire, so people, you know, like, so when you go to, this is to go back to the Harmony Conference thing.

So, here you are, a kind of experienced junkie. The spiritual retreat itself was supposed to be a high. Like you're going to get fucking blasted, dude. Like not only are you going to get some, like some kind of spiritual rush from being around enlightened people, but also you're going to be able to like, now maybe be like, sort of an enlightened person, because if these assholes can sit up there and talk about it, why fucking can't I?

And then, you know what I mean? And what happens, I think, at a rail retreat, is you get bored. You're like, this is a fucking scam, man! Fuck this! Where's the fucking vision, baby? What is this? And you get pissed and you get bored

and it's like, they're not organized. Where's the organization? Their sound system isn't perfect. Why don't they have a perfect sound system? And how, well, what is it? What is this person saying that I should be happy, you know, regardless or whatever? It's like, well, they're fucking divorced. What do they know about anything at all? And you're pissed because

that's my favorite retreats. I get that. I know it's working because I'm pissed. I'm like, where's the fucking rainbow here? I don't need to see a goddamn rainbow. Somebody heal me right now, man. I need to feel good." And then, you know what I'm saying? In the good retreats... And wouldn't you say that that is exactly the iteration of spiritual materialism? Isn't that exactly it? Absolutely. And I think that's what Trump or Rinpoche was talking about. And I think that's why it must be hard to do a real spiritual retreat these days because you have all these matter-addicted people looking for a big fucking blastered and wanting to go back to work fully enlightened, turning the water cooler water into wine, you know, fuck healing everyone. Fuck healers, you know, fuck people who like, you know, like, you know what the term fuck healers, David?

Fuck healer? Fuck healer. Oh, fuck healer, no, by know what the term fuck healer is, David? Fuck healer? Fuck healer. Oh, fuck healer. No, by fucking somebody who healed him? Well, no, it's the fuck healer is the person who is trying to help someone spiritually. But you realize that they're only helping hot girls spiritually. You know what I mean? They're out there and they're like, you know, the Jesus of beautiful women. No dudes are getting healed around this. In Heavily, there's some beautiful woman who is being healed. I've never done that myself. Wow. But what I'm talking about is like... So all I'm saying is, yeah, this is why I think a lot of... If I were trying to do retreats and stuff, I would be nervous.

Because by meeting the expectations of people coming to a spiritual retreat, you're probably not doing a spiritual retreat. You're probably doing like a rave disguised as a spiritual retreat. And this is why, and not to bash psychedelic medicine, because I know a lot of people have benefited from it and the research coming out is incredible, but this is another thing that I see is like,

psychedelics can really play into that. You're gonna get high as a fucking kite here, baby And also breaking through something Breakthrough, oh breakthrough. You always got a breakthrough You always got to progress you're evolving. It's a never-ending progression breakthrough evolution thing It's like what the fuck happens happens when you know there's, you did it, you broke through. Now what? You broke through.

There's nothing else to break through. Now you're fucked, you know, cause you don't get the rush anymore. The rush of healing, the rush of transformation, the rush of healing your trauma. What happens if you heal all your goddamn trauma? Are you still going to these retreats? You still gonna drink ayahuasca? What are you going to do now? What are you going to do now?

That to me is like that the best retreats, that's where you land is like, what now? What's such a... I personally, of course, you know, I like the Buddhist tradition particularly, but I think it does emphasize this idea of, you know, not feeding off of that kind of expectation so much. And therefore you drive people out a little bit. And the key element is actually the kind of practice of sitting meditation where you don't have the engine of breaking through anything. You you you're in a steel chamber of your own mind for a long time,

potentially. And so the breakthrough is just recognizing the fact that there is no breakthrough. And you guys see why he infuriates me as my meditation teacher, because not as much these days, but in the beginning, you have no idea how infuriated with you I was. And like, just because I... Well, how can we continue to be friends then? I'm infuriated with all my friends. That's how you know you're my friend is I'm secretly infuriated with something you've done.

Okay. In a good way. I wanna be infuriated, but I'm not, I don't mean it in the normal sense of like, I mean like you, you weren't giving me the fix. I wanted a fix, man. And like that wasn't happening. And I didn't like that.

And I didn't like that about any of my real teachers. And they never give me the fix. And then, but somewhere in there, detox happens and you do get little glimpses of like, whoa, what happened? You don't need a fix. Actually, it's fine. Which is, to be quite honest, that's its own high. Like if you're an erotic son of a bitch

and you've spent almost every waking moment in some low level state of anxiety or fear or worry of something awful happening, and suddenly you realize you're walking down the sidewalk and you're just, you're fine. That is a shocking moment. You know, that is of its own high, and maybe that's why it's hard to maintain. You know, maybe that's why it's like, it just feels so anomalous to just be, oh yeah, it's the morning and I'm walking down a sidewalk and there's nothing really special happening at all. And yet I feel really just completely safe

and fine and cool. Whoa, I've had a few of those moments since I've been working with you. It's pretty nice. Not a lot of them. You know how Tunggru Muthi described the dawn of Vipassana which described the dawn of Vipassana, which is the sort of Vipassana means awareness and insight, but it comes from a sense of spaciousness

and non-obsession. So you're actually just able to see phenomenon, see your mind arise, see phenomenon arise. He said, when that dawns, that kind of quality of spaciousness, it's like the end of a bad marriage. Wow! Yes! That's it! Oh my god, it's like stepping out of something you didn't even know you were in. You know, it's that moment when you've gone through a shitty breakup and suddenly you're okay. And whoa, but that okay is not based on a relationship. It's not based on

anything. And that is stunning. It shouldn't be because it's it's how it is. But whoa, that first taste of it is so stunning. And so poignant, you know, in the sense that I think this has probably always been here. Like this, this is not due to a addition of something. And it's not because I got my meds right, or it's not because I got money in the bank. It's not because I'm, you know, losing weight, gaining whatever the thing is you need. It's just here. Whoa. Yeah. And it's the actual experience of spaciousness. Wow. Yeah. I never thought of that as spaciousness. That's so interesting. Yeah. Well, we fill this space, the premises, we fill this natural spaciousness with a lot of

habitual activity and mental habits and emotional habits. So it's not so much that we're repressing those or removing those, but those are also have a spacious quality to them too. So you don't even have to get rid of them. Yeah. Yeah. At some point.

You got to cool them off enough so that you can maybe not be completely like on a barbecue spit for your entire emotional journey. Yeah. And that, I think the older you get, Completely like on a barbecue spit for your entire emotional journey. Yeah, and yeah you and that Bar, you know, I think the older you get the less fun it is to be on a barbecue spit I think when you're in your 20s, it's kind of nice to get the roast, you know, you feel like a grown-up You're getting blazed by the world. But eventually there's just no I just I don't want to be in a smoker anymore

but do you does this feel like But eventually, there's just no, I just, I don't want to be in a smoker anymore. But do you, does this feel like, as a teacher, do you get frustrated, like, in the sense that like, here is this thing that you have spent your life exploring. Here's this thing that you have a real certainty about that isn't coming from reading books or a hope, a fantasy that this could be real, but a real experiential quality, or how could you really teach it? Do you get frustrated with us? Where you're always there. Like it's right there. I've how many ways? What do I, what are you doing? Like I've been, like here's this thing right in front of you. It's right there for you. And do you get frustrated with us? With me? Well, fuck them. What about me? first thought, best thought, I love you.

So the answer would be definitely no. And that is love. I think really you just take people as they are completely and you appreciate it. But I wanna give a different answer, an additional answer, which is we have our teacher training program coming up at Dharma Moon. Oh, yeah.

So we're all we're always, you know, generating a field of information and sort of letting people know what's what's there. So my team is saying, you know, David, you need to have some they call them in marketing, you know, narratives like that I went through, what did I go through to transform XYZ? And I thought, well, you know, I don't know if I don't know if I exactly think that way, but everybody's asking me to, so I tried. And then it came, it dawned on me, I do work with impatience. That's a trait that I experienced and also lack of compassion. So at times I feel maybe frustrated or impatient. I can recognize that I'm not being patient enough. It takes time cultivating people. And then also

at times maybe I'm reactive to people and I don't like them or something like that. And then over time I get to feel very differently about them. And I go like, well, that was me. That wasn't them. Right. That was me. Yeah. That irritation with them, that kind of feeling like, that's not it, that's not the right deal, or you're not doing that right, is all me. So I did say my transformational story for myself

is to cultivate more patience and more compassion. No, that is not what your marketing team was talking about. We want to hear how you're like a gloriel or something. We need to hear about you like banging, like getting some orgy in a crash pad in New York and you ran out of blow and then you saw a picture of Chogam Trumpa. That's what they're talking about. They're not looking for like, I'm working on patients. They need like a, you were like, you wanted to go for Niagara Falls in a barrel because you're on so much PCB. You know, I'll write it for you. It

doesn't have to be true. I can write a great redemption arc for you, man. Like, but I like that. See, I like, that's the thing I like about you. Though I do... It's very fun to hear redemption arcs and it's super cool. I'm just more interested in... One of the things I love that you've said to me more than a few times is we do this in real time. Meaning, we're doing this right now. Whatever you were or whatever I was or whatever, okay, fine. It's informed who we are at this moment, but that's not going on at the second. And I think that's what I like is because you're really,

you pull us really like into the moment, which is why when I do these events with you and when I try to help you like let people know this is happening I used to say well I mean it's no big deal because it's like telling someone where there's ice cream but with you it's a little bit like well there's ice cream in the tiger cage. And often I don't mention the tiger. Oh shit, I forgot there's a tiger in there.

The ice cream is good. But I find that quality in a lot of teachers. And I think I've come to really love that. Like I like ice cream, but I have diabetes. I hate too much ice cream. So like that, you know, that quality of, you know, the experience of like having to revise your impression of someone and all like my friend Jason who I just interviewed who teaches like magic or...

It's so funny because you all just, you know, wear a t-shirt, a nice blue sweater. You know what I mean? No one knows who you spent time with. Probably most people don't understand that you were sitting next to a human tiger for a very long time. Trump-a-rimpache was some form of like, you know, something very- Yeah, ice cream in a tiger cage resonates very well in that context. But also just to, you also just to really make sure

we're clear about all these things. I feel eminently in the human realm myself, and that means I've visited all the adjacent realms. I have been addicted to certain types of experience. I have felt like I was in hell and kind of like, depressed and never gonna get out of it. I have had some really good times in the God realms and kind of felt like, man, what's the problem?

Like I'm a musician, Duncan. If you're a musician, you didn't spend any time in God realm, you're really not doing your job. Oh my God, when people start finding out about, oh, you Ram Dass retreat people, like history, sorry. Every one of you, Krishnadas up there singing Kirtans, Ramdas. I'm not

saying this, I'm not leaking anything. This is all publicly available information. When you see what these lunatics were doing when they were kids, you're lucky you're alive, David Nick. You are all lucky you're not in jail. Like you all of you. Some of you have been in jail, but like, you know what I mean? Like, yeah. And I know that. And I think that's super cool. But I do, you know, just if I could just finish framing... Sorry for cutting. The human realm, that's where I really spent most of my life. And it's where I've spent all of my Dharma life. We work with human beings. They have, we all have...

People don't understand. Like some people don't know what you're saying right now, my Dharma life. We work with human beings. They have, we all have trail piece. Some people don't know what you're saying right now because they're like, I'm in the human realm too. They don't understand the differentiation between the God realm and the animal realm. And so maybe you should like... They should, I mean, in all academicity, they should just buy my book Awakening from the Daydream and read about the six realms. But what it's in a nutshell alluding to is sort of different qualities and kind of textures of experience, some of which are related to like very intense suffering

and claustrophobia, and some of which are related to blissful states. But what we're talking about, the trap is that you get, you begin to feel that they're solid, sustainable states of mind and situations, and you get trapped there. Right. That's all.

The only difference between a Buddha and you and me is being trapped in those realms. Right. Right. We experience them. You go, I'm having a really bad day, and I'm angry. I've seen you. You used to get upset, and then you have more of a passion than you used to. You say, I'm upset right now.

Right. I'm having a bad... I need to just cool my jets or whatever. Or take my time out. Oh, yeah. I know. I mean, that's the other thing is like... I texted our guru this too, because I just had this moment of realizing, I don't think...

And this is going to seem cheesy. I don't care. I'm cheesy. I don't think, and this is going to seem cheesy, I don't care, I'm cheesy. I don't think you all realize, I don't think you really, I don't think you can fully realize the impact you're having. I don't, I'm not saying that matters to you necessarily, but it just occurred to me with all of you, it's like, oh right, because you're always around each other, and this is, but you live in a very strange world compared to what most of us are in. And it occurred to me, I don't think you, what you just said, you're right.

Yeah, you're right. But you know, when I think about like, before I started working with you or going to these retreats and I'm sorry if this seems like some shitty sales pitch, it's not. When I just think about my life before then and now, and because the changes for me are like generally slow moving, but when I look back at that versus now, it's like, my God, the impact that's had just on me and all the people you all are just sort of broadcasting to you all the time. And you won't hear it from a lot of people who stumble upon something out there maybe that we've chatted about or any of that number of things out there. You just

don't know. That's what's so interesting and cool about it. I just hope you guys know that. I mean that like, though I know you don't need it. Maybe just hope you guys know that. I mean that like it, though I know you don't need it. Maybe it's just another peak thing. I'm just trying to get you high or something but like the... Oh, no, wait a minute. No, you're, you're expressing appreciation. This is part of our tradition. Right. It's perfectly good to, it's good to express appreciation. It's also good to ask for teachings,

you know, like at traditionally you're supposed to ask three times before any teaching. They make an offering and you teach so that, that's a very important part of the Buddhist tradition is you don't really come in as a beggar, you know, going like, I'm not worthy. That's not the way you come in saying, you know, please instruct.

So I feel very much the kind of mitigating factor for me totally in this equation equation what you're talking about is I'm from a lineage. I'm from a long line of people. It goes right back to the Buddha. And when I'm giving Buddhist teachings, I've tasted them. I've chewed them. And I'm very ornery. I'm from New York City. I'm a really crusty, cynical person, you know, if you're hanging out with me. But these have really resonated and have proven to be worthy. And then, you know, I do think it's appropriate and okay to express appreciation and affection going forward. That's part of the culture. That's not what I'm teaching my kids.

It is? No way. What are you teaching them? Don't say thank you. What are you teaching them? Don't say thank you. No, you're not. Dostels do not say thank you. Never.

It makes you weak. If you're a man, you don't say thanks. Sorry. You know, I can't keep some sentimental moment going more than a few minutes without having a seizure. Yeah. Well, it's kind of like an emotional erection, you know? I haven't had an emotional erection in years. It's sad. Ever since I had my emotional testicle And so, a criticism that might emerge at the end of our conversations is the idea of teaching people to teach this stuff.

For some people, this is a suspect thing. And I understand the angle that people have regarding that. But if you sort of look at like David or Ram Dass or any of these teachers, what you will find is they're attached to a lineage. And you can look at that as a, I guess, a stem, you know, that usually connects all the way down to some being like the Buddha or something like that. Maybe a better way to say is like a fiber optic cable or something. But, and so, people like David and Ram Dass and Chogam Trungpa, they're growing into time in the same way anything else grows. And it wants to propagate and it propagates itself no matter what. It finds a way to do that.

And in the West right now, the form that has emerged is like what you do. And in that propagation, like you're not just like teaching people this philosophy, which on one hand is incredibly simple, but as you know, now I know, like it's a very big swimming pool with a very deep, deep, deep end. And in the deep end, there's a lot of things with lots of arms swimming around. But you know what I mean? But don't worry, you don't need to go in the deep end yet. Any good swim coach is not going to just throw you in the fucking deep end. But my point is, I do think about the lineage that you're in, and I feel so lucky,

because I think, whoa, I get to interact with what has been called the mishap lineage, but I get to interact with that. I get to have a direct communication with this fiber-optic cable that goes all the way back to the Buddha. And I remember the first time I realized that. It wasn't even a realization, it was a feeling, an experience. It was wild. But all I'm saying is, I just hope people listening to this understand that my motivation here is not some marketing thing or anything other than I like feeding people to tigers.

I like introducing people to something like this. Because number one, it's exciting to hear when people report back to me after taking your classes and how much it's changed them. But also in some weird little way, I get to be a kind of tiny tendril coming off of that fiber optic cable too. And it feels like that's kind of, in the way water's wet, that seems to be a quality of it. It wants to spread, it wants to propagate, it wants to like move into time.

Who knows what it's growing into, what it will eventually become. But anyway, blah, blah, that's my stupid rant. I love you and I hope people will sign up for your class. Well, thank you. And here's, I just wanna like put a cap on it. The mitigating aspect for everybody who's approaching these kind of things is the Buddhist way is a non-theistic tradition.

Nobody's asking anybody to take anything on faith or belief. That's so important to me. And they say prajna discernment is the mother of all the Buddhists. Or like Trungpa Rin Mudd used to say, your guess is as good as mine. There is nothing you have to buy here. And the smarter, the tougher the student is,

the better the transmission is, period. Right. You know, so, and that's been my way, just to be clear. I don't really kind of caught into that kind of gooey devotional thing. It's not my way. I mean, and that, and you know, someone, my kind of brain, I love that because all I want to do is break it. And you're invited to, you know, it's like, when you build blocks around your kid,

you're out of your mind if you think you're going to keep like your block tower up for very long. keep like your block tower up for very long. The kid will destroy it as quickly as possible. And the invitation here always is like, go ahead, break it. I'm always trying to break Buddhism, by the way. I was trying to break it today for the podcast. As I'm in the car, I'm like, man, there's gotta be a way I can fuck up Buddhism

and find a real flaw in it. And I never can. That's the thing, but boy do I try. I really try. I mean that. Like I actively try to find a place where the equation doesn't make sense. Here's the irony.

That's exactly what Buddha told people to do. Right, that's the practice. So by doing that, you're actually, you know, kind of engaging the process the way it's iterated in the first place. Yeah, this is not like a china shop. Like it's, there's a array, and the teachers will offer you hammers.

Like, you know, there isn't, just go ahead and like try. And I think that's what's really beautiful about it. Cause so many people have been like brought up in conditions where their rational mind has been looked at as a, not an asset, but as a hindrance. And there's a lot of blind faith in the world right now. Yeah.

And it has a toxic dimension to it. Blind faith has a toxic aspect to it because people are manipulatable by it. They don't ask good questions. They can be drawn towards some horrible actions in the name of it. Really like you go like, I thought this was a religion of love and compassion. They're telling you to go ahead and go to war about it.

It's, I think, I feel, I don't know how you're feeling. I feel there's a rise in the level of intelligence is starting to happen again. Well- Do you feel that at all? Not in mine. I think. Hope it's happening to other people. I feel like I'm getting dumber. But I do. I know. No, I do think like, you know, I think what's happening is we are getting, you know, the thing where, what's happening is we are getting, you know the thing where, you know, this never happened to me, you hear stories that the parent catches the kid smoking and it's like buys a pack of cigarettes and brings them out in the yard and makes them smoke the whole fucking pack

and they never smoke again. They're puking, they have nicotine poisoning. This is old school parenting. It never happened to me. I just heard this story. But I think that a byproduct of the dopamine extracting technology that we're all engaging in is that it is putting everyone in some kind of digital realm of the gods where you are getting in bed.

What do you wanna see? You wanna see the apocalypse, you wanna see tits, you wanna see a crazy dude eat a snake at the zoo, you wanna see cute hamsters and you're getting this constant dopamine high and maybe some of that intelligence is emerging as people realize it's not doing anything for me anymore. And then people are suddenly reading again. Suddenly people are, you know what AI did to me?

Like I was obsessed with AI mid-journey, all of it, generating AI animation, everything. Everyone knows. I'm so sorry, you guys. But the other side of that is like now I'm trying to teach myself how to just draw and animate myself Because I realize like I don't want to have a machine do this shit for me. I want to learn it myself and so maybe that's the rise and intelligence is the the barrage of Like pleasure inducing images is of like pleasure inducing images is helping people have the that moment of epiphany that gets you out of the god realm which is like it's not scratching the itch really i'm just miserable maybe that's it you know i don't know well i hope them either which way it goes and

whether people develop technology or not i'm not in any way anti-tech person. I'm really curious and playful with it. But either way, I hope people continue to meditate without it. How do you meditate with technology? Oh, right, like those apps. Yeah, just sit on your ass, on a cushion, take some part of your day

where you just become an organic being again, breathe, feel the quality of your irritation, your frustration, watch your thoughts come and go, watch your feelings come and go, develop some kind of perspective on the whole situation by direct experience, and be human for a while, and then do whatever else you're going to do. I really think that it's not a problem, but the counterpoint should be that we should practice some, you know, some whatever your practice is. If you don't practice in life, you cruise through life, you don't, nothing shifts. Practice is the key.

Right. David, as always, thank you so much. I'm so lucky I get to have these conversations with you. I do not take them for granted, never will. And I feel real lucky that you and I are friends. Me too, Duncan. And while we're on the topic for everybody, Duncan and I are going to-

No time, I'm sorry we can't promote it. Goodbye, David. Go ahead, I'm sorry. Then they won't know if in that case, if we've stopped the recording already, they won't know that you and I are going to have a conversation free online on September 3rd at 6 p.m. to 7.30 Eastern time. And we're going to talk about the process of becoming a meditation teacher as per the Dharma Moon 100 hour program.

But we're also going to talk about the imposter syndrome. Remember that? That was the topic. I love it. Like how come you feel like a fake when you're being a comedian? How come you feel like you're a fake when you're being a dad? How come you feel like you're a fake when you're teaching meditation? Yeah. And how come so many people have expressed that? What's that about? So we're going to just sort of jam on that a little bit. Who's fault? Ray Gunn? You haven't seen Ray Gunn? No. Oh my god. Oh my god. You got to look it up. Ray Gunn, the break dancer in the Olympics. Oh. She wrote, she's like, okay, so I'm so sorry. The, like these info sessions, by the way, they're just like,

they're essentially a podcast. You gotta come up, let me be your marketing team. Stop calling them info sessions. It's such a dry name. We have to come up with another name for them. It's a podcast. But the, so Ray Gun is the name of the Australian, of a woman from Australia who somehow managed to get into the Olympics break dancing

competition. So it's created a big stir because after we wrap, I'll show you the video. She doesn't like anyone who's ever been to a kid at like a dance, this is how you dance. Like you try to pretend you're not a break dance and you do like these moves that aren't really break dancing. But if you're in like a summer camp dance, you will look cool. But this is the fucking Olympics.

So she comes out doing this thing that is not quite break dancing, gets zero points and they no longer are gonna do break dancing in the Olympics. She bombed so hard that the Olympics are like, fuck break dancing, we will never do this again. And it's created a big stir. There's pro-ray gun people and anti-ray gun people.

But the idea is, I think the imposter syndrome thing derives from sometimes you really can say yes and end up in the Olympics and not know what you're fucking doing. Somehow you can like- Well, it would have to be real. The imposter thing would have to be real for it to be a syndrome in the first place. We are imposters. That's the point is that of course we're imposters,

but then what? Then do you quit? She could actually learn how to break dance. That would be another way to stop being imposter, that's the point. I said, of course we're imposter, but then what? You know, then do you quit? She could actually learn how to break dance. That would be another way to stop being imposter. No, but it's too late. She destroyed an entire part of the Olympics. But I do want to talk about the difference between like imposter imposter, which is like,

the, like this happens where in hospitals, like imposter imposter, which is like, this happens where in hospitals, somehow grifters will just print out a medical, and the hospital's like, yeah, we need reins. We'll perform surgery, or actually slip in and perform the surgery. Yeah, versus like the gnawing sense that, yes, you're not where you belong,

but somehow there's success happening and it fucks with your head. There's two very different things. Yeah, we're gonna talk about the gnawing sense. The gnawing sense is a much better term for the talk. Anyway, sign up friends. The link will be at duggetruzzle.com. It's darmanmoon.com.

Is it an org or com? darmanmoon.com. David Nicktern.DharmaMoon.com. Is it an org or com? www.DharmaMoon.com. www.DharmaMoon.com. David Nicktern, Awakening from the Daydream, one of my favorite Buddhist texts of all time, by the way. And yeah, come hang out with us for a little bit. It's coming right up. Yeah, September 3rd. See you, everybody. And Duncan, thank you again so much. Thank you, David. You're the best. That was a great podcast. Thank you. And thank you again so much. Thank you, David. You're the best. That was a great podcast. Thank you.

That was David Nicktern, everybody. He's at DharmaMoon.com and we are doing a live podcast September 3rd. I think he's calling it an info session, which is... I don't... I can't think of a more boring sounding... Like, I wouldn't go to an info session. It is and it's a podcast. So come hang out with us. Week after next.

For those of you on your way to Burning Man, Godspeed, I might see you there. I'm on the fence. I love you. Bye.