Duncan Trussell Family Hour - 638: Emil Amos

Episode Date: September 14, 2024

Emil Amos, musician and one of Duncan's oldest friends, re-joins the DTFH for an intense one! Duncan and Emil's prank calls, Insidious Mind Control, have finally been collected! Look for them on Bandcamp this coming Monday (September 16, 2024). Original music by Aaron Michael Goldberg and Duncan Trussell. This episode is brought to you by: Reunion - Use code DUNCAN during registration and get $250 off your first retreat! VB Health - Visit LoadBoost.com and use code DUNCAN for 10% off of your first order! This episode is brought to you by BetterHelp. Give online therapy a try at betterhelp.com/duncan and get on your way to being your best self.

Welcome to the DTFH. Oh fuck this episode man this one This one got me, you know, emo amos has been on the show many times He's actually one of the most requested guests of the DTFH uh and I love talking to him, but this one reminded me of how

Intense a person he is and how wild it is that I got to be friends with him. We went really deep. And to me, what's really ironic about that is that initially we wanted to plug a tape of prank calls that we're releasing. It's coming out on Monday. And it's like the longest, most philosophical discussion to get to, and we want you to fire

prank call tapes. It's ridiculous. But we do. I want you to check out Insidious Mind Control, which is going to be available on Bandcamp. You can find the links at dunkintrussell.com or just Google Incidious Mind Control. On Monday we're dropping it. I hope you will check it out.

It's a cassette tape. You're going to need a tape player. I think on Bandcamp you'll probably get an MP3 or something. But get a fucking tape player. That way you can really get the prank call experience. Also, if you're coming to any of my shows, I'm gonna be selling them there too. So, Insidious Mind Control, order it,

especially if today's Monday. If it's not, you can't get it yet. And please welcome back to the DTFH, brilliant musician of some of my favorite bands ever Holy Suns Grails and also One of my dearest friends lifetime friends email amos What up B? Welcome back to the show

Feels good to be here, dude. We've got a fucking huge announcement to make this has been in the works now for oh I mean, I guess you could say over two decades if you really think about it, but Yeah, maybe maybe almost 30 or something almost 30 years has been in the works And you know, this is something I think we may have talked about a little bit in the many podcasts that we've done together, but when we were in college, we, and I'm still a little confused about how it even happened, started making prank calls and recording them using a handheld tape recorder that you would hold up to the phone and that somehow actually got the audio in a way where you could hear it.

Which that to me is one of the weirdest parts about it. It's like how the fuck did that work? Totally agree. I think about that often when I'm editing it. I'm like were phones way louder back then? Were we using a speakerphone? I don't think they had that in the dorms. They didn't have that.

Yeah, so that was the one thing that was really strange is that, I mean, it was already strange that we decided to start doing prank calls, but what was really weird is that we could then share the calls we made with people in the school. And I think that was probably my, it was definitely my first taste of making something and like in some infinitely microscopic way publishing it and it would make people laugh. And remember how thrilling that was?

Like, people would, like, professors started playing it to their students in their class. Remember that? Yeah, no, I mean, if you go back to the line that, I guess it'd be good to ask you where it came from, but that line you said a couple podcasts ago, the music turns victims into heroes. I mean, we're kind of diagramming the birth of you flipping your own script like that, right? Right. Yeah, right, like taking this trait

that definitely probably isn't that good, like some ability to manipulate a lack of any kind of sense of like, this probably shouldn't do this. You know, sociopathic traits, I guess you would say. And then like realizing like, oh my God, that you can like make something really funny using these traits that, and also it wasn't just that.

I mean, the other thing that I think was really great about these calls is that we didn't have any reason for doing them other than it was making us laugh. Yeah, I mean, you definitely, you said recently you used to leave my room feeling acutely guilty and at the time you definitely battled some guilt but then afterwards too for years when we when we speculated on how do you release these like how do you package them like what who you know how did we want to

present them I mean all through the years you know we do all these long distance phone calls in the early days because really as a struggling comedian in the early 2000s, you didn't really have any content yet. So like if you had a manager or something, people would be like, what do you have? And you'd be like, well, I have these calls. And so we would go over it sometimes. We'd be like, what are we going to do with the fucking calls there? To us, they were and a few other people they were legendary and I think that

At some point I mean you kind of relieved yourself of the guilt but all those years I remember you feeling really conflicted about if they were mean-spirited or not But for me who is just in the room laughing recording them. I I never really felt laughing, recording them, I never really felt like they were mean-spirited at all. There's moments that are off-color. Nobody ever has their feelings heard. You can kind of tell.

I think the only controversial thing is that you've possibly woken someone up at a hotel once. Because it was, no, you didn't even wake them up, but it was late. possibly woken someone up at a hotel once. No, you didn't even wake them up, but it was late. But stuff like that, those were the ethical lines crossed. But yeah, all in all, I would say they're actually pretty kind, but you battled with yourself, I'd say for years, and now we look back, and it's kind of the good old days. Well, also, I just don't like,

like ethical comedy, you know what I mean? There's a, it's like too, it's like wet fire. You know, it's like two things that just don't go together or work well together. And maybe, and you can, you know, you see attempts at it. Anytime you see some kind of moralizing by a talk show host who's supposed to be funny or a comedian who's supposed to be funny

or God forbid a political commercial is trying to be funny and it rarely hits. It's kind of like, you know, Christian rock. You know what I mean? Like, you can try it, but most of the time it just doesn't hit right. Like, it feels off, you know? And yeah, so I think that was probably like my first taste of sort of reckoning with like, well, if you want to be funny, you have to like surrender to not a mean-spirited attitude, but a sort of chaotic relationship with existence that isn't weighed down by your, like whatever you think is right or wrong. Right, that's like totally a fascinating way

to get into this subject because as you recently told me, see I never knew how you thought of yourself when you got to school. I just saw you as most people viewed you from the outside, which was, you know, an eccentric form of outsider in your own way. But you were telling me recently you didn't really think of yourself that way.

So you were sort of like, or at least you were trying to escape some of your eccentricities and like jump into this world of normality by way of college. I didn't know any of that stuff. Still to me, that's kind of shocking. I'm fascinated by that idea.

But if it's true that you got to school because you wanted to join the workforce and become a professional working person. Yeah, whatever. Yeah. Then I was kind of like a portal person. I was, my room was a portal, the calls were a portal, but as you stepped through that, and you sort of...

Well, because you're, like, you were the first actual, like, artist, especially recording artist that I ever met. Like, because this was before YouTube, this was before social media, so like, obviously you knew there were people out there who would play music as a job, or there was like a way to record songs, but also back then, the audio technology was infinitely far away from where it is now. So if you did want to record music, you needed gear, right? And then the whole thing just... Like in high school, I think some of my friends formed a band,

and that was about as close as I'd ever come to being around anyone trying to make songs. And so I met you, and you're not just making music You're making this beautiful music that I listened to to this day. And so like like I was mind blown by the whole thing like it just seemed like Insane whatever you were which I wasn't really quite sure of back then just seemed like Really crazy to me and also you I think made me feel Normal you know what I mean like you made me feel like Like I was the one who's like dude this dude like you had to watch out for him because like whatever he the fuck

He's up to you ain't good like and and Like I never realized that and so we had that conversation lately how like the I guess my fantasy had been Somehow that you know you can hang up your eccentricities whenever you want like there There is a way to assimilate if you wanted to you could like sort of fly outside the default reality But when it's time to get back in you could get back in you could just fit right back in with them again and Mix in the way that people around you seem to just normally mix in or something I don't know you that fit you've ever had that fantasy you seem to just normally mix in or something. I don't know, have you ever had that fantasy?

Whew. I don't know if I was ever so privileged to believe that would work out, but I had a huge head start. Like everything we were doing in that room and on those acid trips in the woods or whatever, I had a huge head start from from a very early age I've talked about it a million times, but you can't underestimate the fact that

Getting into like hardcore meeting my guru being into skateboarding. Those are all things where you like already threw out Normality early on 12 years old you just threw it all out. And in the end, some people are lucky to make correlations between all those subcultures and Buddhism or something of a sort of greater umbrella that requires a throwing out normality, you know, to get to sort of like the gist of the core concept. And so, because I'd had that big head start, by the time I met you, I probably felt kind of old,

almost like washed up. I was kind of like, I mean, that was this sullen look that you've reported. Okay, wait, here's the, okay, yes. But to get to the sullen look, that's another thing about you is like you were growing up during like What like a boo a mute an insane music boom in Chapel Hill? Because Chapel Hill was having this crazy indie rock thing

happening and all these insane bands were coming through and like there was not just like you're around people making music, but you're around people who went on to become like Famous and certainly in North Carolina. You've got what do you got fucking REM? Archers of loaf who else or the other bands? REM came through and are affiliated with the DB's for sure and and let's active but but what you're talking about sounds to maybe like a that's active. But what you're talking about sounds to maybe like a layman or like somebody just drifting through this podcast. What you're talking about sounds just like kind of shallowly anthropological, but it's not shallow at all. Like what you're saying goes back to a huge

part of the way our friendship came together in the sense that you were coming from Hendersonville. We never talk about the difference between Hendersonville and Chapel Hill, but that was fucking massive because in a sense I cheated. You know, I got shown all this stuff at age 10, 11, 12, and sat on stage with Fugazi and stuff running to get him water. You know, I got to see this stuff in the very, very front row as a small child. And so when we came together, there was kind of a beautiful aspect is that you didn't necessarily need to have those backgrounds to have that complexity inside you that kind of correlated

with where I was coming from too. And so then you cheated. We both kind of cut corners spiritually with a kind of what I like to call sometimes like a spiritual greed. You want more than what you're seeing. And because we both had that kind of lust for learning, it's like we glued together.

And because I had that four tracks sitting there and I had this music ritual, and you didn't yet have your little space, your little void that you were gonna fill with something creative, we created the calls for you to have a ritualistic practice. Right, yeah, that's a cool way to look at it, yeah. And yeah, that, so yeah, so these calls

were like, you know, us like figuring out something. And I also, don't you think that wrestling with like this a sense of guilt or a feeling of like what the fuck have I done isn't that maybe a sign you're making something cool like when you get you know what I mean like that sense of like some some podcasts I'm like damn I don't know if I should put that up a feeling of like oh fuck man I don't know you I should put that up a feeling of like oh fuck man. I don't know you know It's not some sense of like this is great. It's a feeling of like whoa

I don't know if what we talked about and I don't mean in some kind of like Politically correct way I just mean like shit man like I don't know if I I don't know what we're doing there What are we summing up? You know what I mean like what if we and that's the other thing is like certain people in My life you're obviously one of them when I get around them something It's summoned up that isn't me and isn't them it's something in between and and and that thing is so unique and Sometimes sinister in the coolest way ever

You know, if you're challenged if you're with a real friend and you have spiritual greed and you're really interested in exploring what other people might think of as esoteric, dangerous even, then it's not like your job, but you're just naturally going to push each other in a good way towards whatever it is you're exploring. And inevitably someone will swim a little further out in the pool first, you know? And then be like, you wanna swim out a little further? And you're like, I don't know, but you do.

And then that's kind of the progression, I think, of any good friendship that has the game of, don't want to say philosophy, but why not like That's one of the games and the friendship Yeah, certainly, I mean again back to like the beginnings of of music and and getting to sort of like have this peak experience in Chapel Hill, I mean, metaphorically, the first difficult music that I heard, which eventually became, you know,

hardcore sort of transformed into lo-fi by way of things like sabato, but that difficult music, the first time you heard it, I'm just speaking like kind of for everybody, you never liked it the first time. Right. Ever. I mean, like people don't realize no one likes this shit the first time. You know what I mean?

And that needs to be said more often to let more people through this kind of elitist gate, you know? Yeah. But so then I got to see you experience that in real time. But I had already been through all that stuff where at first I felt very uncomfortable, intimidated, all those feelings everybody feels when they start hearing outsider music or music for like really small subcultures. You have to acclimate.

And that's not unlike, metaphorically, acid or levels of Buddhism or levels of the Masons. There's always acclamations, right? And so picture somebody that is like hitting their head up against the ceiling of a level of development. And they're like, oh, that next one, as you're talking about the deep end of the pool, that next level of development

is just too uncomfortable for me. And then they make almost a conscious decision to just stop evolving. Right, right. Right, and which is a nut, which they don't even realize, like that's just another deep end of the motherfucking pool, it's just a different kind of deep end. Now you're playing around with. Now you're playing around with

entropy, you're playing around with mediocrity, but because you have decided not to go further in, you have like you've brought this thing on, you've brought it onto yourself. That's the, and I do think this is why most grimoires, even in some like spiritual some spiritual Buddhist stuff I've read, there is a thing at the beginning that says, listen, don't. Fucking do it. Like, if you haven't already started down the path, don't go. Because this is the best time to not go.

Because once you start going down, you're not going to get to go back. Like you can't go back. You can't fall asleep again in the way you wanted to fall asleep. And also, this is why I think if there was, why secret societies, or whatever you want to call them, forms of like ritualistic spirituality would have a place where you really have to ask to come in and you have to mean it. And you know what I mean? Where you can't, and whoever is like letting people in has to be good enough to recognize people who mean it and people who don't mean it.

Because of compassion, not some insidious dark like Power hungry thing but just more like look if the best Mitzvah would always just like the best thing that could happen is Somebody realizes comedy isn't for them Best thing is to realize like now I don't want to be a stand-up comic because it's such an insane life and so unpredictable and so fraught with imminent failure or meteoric decline or all the things like you have to really want to do it and not pretend you want to do it or you're really gonna have a rough time. And similarly with this sort of stuff I think we're talking about it's like the the the westernized

Capitalist version of it would imply that upon setting out on the spiritual path It's just smooth sailing baby You're gonna be friendly and nice to everybody and sweet and you're not gonna suffer and the sorrow will diminish and all the that bullshit Like it because you don't you can't sell like listen this thing you're about to get engaged in is really gonna fucking like fuck you up for a while maybe for this whole incarnation there's no guarantees who knows what's gonna happen but if you the thing that is the the selling point is not something you just get to have. But it's like any other fucking thing, like if you want to learn, I don't know, Jiu-Jitsu or something.

You don't just get to just practice and you get good at Jiu-Jitsu. You have to fucking like get your ass kicked. Like there's no way you gotta wrestle with people, get your ass kicked to get better. Whatever the fucking thing is, with stand-up you're gonna eat shit up there, man. You're gonna bomb and be humiliated. And that's just part of it. So I think it's similar. God damn, sorry for that rant.

I've thought about that thing you've said a few times about the turn back now thing. And I've repeated it a couple times. And I mean, the idea of that is pretty facetious though right because you can't no one can turn back karmically right I mean you have no will to be able to turn back like spiritually if that's your destiny well the the so in the Bhagavad Gita the question is you know what happens if I fall away from the path? Will I drift like a cloud?

I always say this on this podcast. I'm sorry, you guys. I just love it. And Krishna's response is there is no loss or diminution on this path. Any, you know, if you fall away from the path in this lifetime, you will be given birth in a family of disciplined men, which is weird. Like how do they start a family? But the, the, the, you will be born, like in the way that you were very introduced to this, like to art, early. That would be looked upon as like, well in the previous incarnation you didn't achieve awakening. You still are locked on the samsaric wheel. But, because of your good karma, you were given birth in a place where you would be exposed to something that would set you on the path sooner this time.

And the premium good karma would be you were born into a family where from the moment you can hear and see you're being introduced to the thing. And then you get the ultimate head start. So when people are always bitching about like nepo babies or whatever from the perspective of the Gita Actually, those people have been like on this creative arc for Lifetimes and and their karma was to be an actor or whatever the fuck it's not always a spiritualist It's like what it whatever your particular fixation is would determine your next birth.

And if the fixation is on something, you know, spiritual or whatever you wanna call it, then that will determine your next birth. So eventually you don't have to keep getting fucking born. Just a grind. ["Spring Day"] grind. This episode has been supported by Reunion. Reunion offers 7 day all-inclusive ayahuasca or psilocybin retreats.

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It's like, you guys, I should go. Go to reunionexperience.org to book a discovery call, secure your spot, and learn more about plant medicine. And for our dear listeners, use code DUNCAN during registration to save $250 off your plant medicine retreat at reunionexperience.org. Dive in. Go deeper. Go to Reunion. Thank you, Reunion. Hare Krishna. Yeah, I mean, that's a that's a great idea.

It's either way too poetic and too convenient or possibly true. But let me ask you this professional question. Does it seem like, I have this friend that was on tour, I think he was cooking for Neil Young and he ended up being like, sort of like waiting for a plane one day with Neil Young and getting to know him a little bit. And I was like, what's he like? You know, whatever you ask, you know, and he was like, wow, he is really grumpy. And I just thought to myself, is this is this our destiny? Like all of our idols are these like infinitely like legendary grumpy old men.

And like it was the same with John Casey who is our great sort of Taoist teacher in college. The most laid back guy, the most understanding, the most on the level, the most chill in so many fucking ways, but also super fucking grumpy. Hey, you ever been around a dying person? They're fucking grumpy sometimes, man. Or like you would, you translated as grumpy,

but it's like you're fucking dying, and it's like they don't, you know, small talk becomes a real different thing when you probably have like a few days to live. You wanna spend that amount of time pacifying somebody's fear of your demise or not telling the truth. You're school's out, man.

You're about to fucking have some kind of break, maybe an infinite one. But regardless, you know what I mean? So I think probably it's like that right like, you know the old the grumpy old person thing are they Are they really grumpy or they just not putting up with your bullshit? Right, like they just don't have time like and then maybe with people like Neil Young Jesus man think of the fucking just

Shotgun blasts of bullshit he had to endure being like Neil Young. Like how many fucking, like how, first people are coming up to you and like, man, your music changed my life. And you love it. But then people are coming up to you and saying that and now you realize I've gotta do like at least

10 or 20 minutes of listening to this person compliment me and if I don't listen and engage in a full way, then they're gonna think I'm an asshole, but really I just don't wanna, I wanna talk like a normal person for a second. I'd like to get out of that as soon as possible and then mix into it all the people trying to grift, trick him, wrote us, hey Neil, hey man,

let me send you some lyrics I wrote for you man it's called yellow hay in the wagon you know and you're like ah dude I don't want your fucking lyrics man please and then you know what I mean and you're just you start getting real and real like tuned into bullshit right so like the chef is like he's real fucking grumpy but we've got it I'd like to see like some conversations on the tour bus with the chef with Neil Young right where he's trying to write a fucking song and the chef maybe is like you know just being nice but like I don't know you know what

I mean that's or Neil Young's a grumpy piece of fucking shit I don't know. You know what I mean. Or Neil Young's a grumpy piece of fucking shit, I don't know. I think I met him once. Oh yeah? Yeah, cause like, I don't know how much I could talk about it honestly, it wouldn't be fair, but like there's a place in some part of the country that supposedly he would go to under a pseudonym. And I'm 99% certain it was him.

What a trip. And I was on MDMA. No way. And I think he knew I recognized him and I was wearing a shirt, a hat that said, I love Jesus or something, some hipster bullshit. And I remember he walked up to us in the hot tub. And he's like, you believe what's on your hat no fucking way yeah, and like I I'm like I do and

He seemed awesome and he knew that I I think he must have known I knew who he was and But that's like what's your name? And he like I don't know gave a different name so maybe it wasn't him but sure as fuck looked like him. It's an exact spot that people said he would go to. And he seemed like exact. I mean, seemed like it's probably him. And he didn't seem grumpy.

He just seemed, he seemed like sparkly in the way like, I don't know, people like John Casey were, you know, sparkly dangerous or something, sparkly, like, like, I don't know, people like John Casey or, you know, Sparkly Dangerous or something, Sparkly, like, I don't know. But I could be wrong. Totally. Could have been just some dude. That's hilarious.

I mean, there is something, there's something to those two people. There's something to those people who have seen what they've seen. And there's also something to like, to those people who have seen what they've seen. And there's also something to like that precipice, or whatever you want to call it, when the husband carries the woman over the, what's it called?

Like over the, into the doorway, you know. Threshold. Yeah, the threshold, right? The precipice of the threshold, there's something about how you came into my room and you broke through a fear barrier. And then we landed the trick or something. And you were like, oh shit, this works out.

Someone said the deep end of the pool isn't so bad. You're not going to die. And then you walked away from it. Eventually, I mean, sort of taking a bit of a pact with the Dark Lord, metaphorically, because you sort of started to maybe see your path towards normality in a bigger context, and you sort of put that aspiration away a little bit.

For sure, yeah, absolutely, man. And there was a kind of, I don't know, a way that I think we were looking at the world which is a really good way to look at the world, a way of being in the world that's kind of spontaneous and naturally makes you an outsider if it's a world of planning and a world of strategizing and a world of like, you know, careerism or whatever. There's a lot of outsiders that you run into, and I don't just mean like artists, you know, travelers. You know, when you run into travelers, it's always cool.

Like the people who are living in their fucking vans are always like, you know, traveling in weird parts of the world, and they haven't anchored themselves to any real home. And they've been traveling so much that they don't even have that in their heads anymore. You know what I'm talking about, those travelers you run into.

Traveling men! You run into them. Yeah, the way they're living is kinda like, it wouldn't, maybe it wouldn't work so well in the, norm, in the default reality world. Like you wouldn't be able to quite pull it off. You know, that thing.

And I think like that to me was like, the fantasy was that I would be able to like, change the way I was interacting with reality to where suddenly I was satisfied with just a normal schedule and in some sense of knowing what's around the corner in a year or two and 401Ks and all that shit. Like you know that's how you- Well it sort of implies that you also like had an inborn sense of guilt already or some sort of fear already that you were gonna like slide back into some hole of your own your own evil you know what I mean it's

like it's like you showed up and you had this sort of like war or thing playing out between you and then like as as I've known you, I mean, it's very clear that you've worked through a lot of it. I mean, where you are now to me, sort of like with your emphasis on neutrality, like in the past couple, few years, it just seems so different than the person I met in a certain calmer way and I think thanks

yeah and I yeah happier that was the word I was using back then happy but what I meant was kind of like weirdly I kind of meant beyond good and evil too that's that's kind of what I meant and I feel like when I was sitting in your room one time and I was, you had some random girls from your dorm just happened to be in your room and I had said to them, you know, I had said to this one girl that I was finally happy, you know, and that within that reality or something maybe it rubs up against the world in a funny way, or something, I was describing something

about the quality of happiness, and she was like, I don't think you're happy at all. I mean, look at your face, you know? Look at the way you are, like around campus or something. And it was interesting, because it was one of those first times where someone was like, your happiness is not the way I've been told happiness looks.

Dude, your happiness pissed a lot of people off. Like that happy thing we are, I hate, I didn't like it. Like, you know, really, because like that to me was also like in retrospect, thinking about how you figured out that if you tell people you're happy, that can really anger somebody. And almost like they are inviting them to challenge you.

You want to get into an argument about whether you're happy or not. And also the I don't think you're happy thing is actually sinister, because in the I don't think you're happy thing is actually Sinister because in that I don't think you're happy is actually let me try to make you miserable like me I want to pull you into my hell you got out of hell I want to get you back in here and and so you're not fitting into anything that happiness looks like Yeah, dude. That was that is Yeah, that that is a really funny thing

regarding happiness itself. I mean, the word is quite confusing anyway. And also I think what most people imagine it is, or if you were to just sort of do an essay on happiness and you're only allowed to watch commercials, you know, think of what you would write to define Happiness and that's what the transactional corporate is world just shoves down your fucking throat Happiness is that look on your face when you're driving down the fucking beautiful forest road and your new Range Rover

With your wife who is not fine with your bullshit. That's happiness. You know, like the thing itself, or happiness is a kind of like, it's a high that never goes away. You get into this some kind of state of like, dude, I did it, I plugged all the cords into the right fucking holes, and now this thing that was transient, fleeting, rare, is a constant reality for me at every waking moment

That's the happy fantasy when it's like if you look at happiness or the times you're really fucking happy You know from that perspective You're never happy. Yeah, I think I don't there was never anything sarcastic about Using that word to me. Maybe I was reclaiming the word like when, you know, you steal back the word from, you know, the wrong connotation, you reuse it in a new way or something. But I think that I have to speculate that one reason why I really felt happy and called it being happy was that I kind of got through the major arc of the worst suffering of my life

and came out on the other side and looked at the world and started to see sort of how the world works in a way that I wouldn't, I wasn't taking things personally. It wasn't about me. I was just starting to look at the thing as an organism, and I felt very freed up by that. And I felt impartial to it.

You know, it was like a type of feeling enlightened in the neutral sense. I was not really, it wasn't my script. And I felt sort of totally freed up from all the suffering I had gone through before. What was that suffering? What do you think that was? Well, I mean, certainly the bad side of greed,

certainly the bad side of ego, lust, and all the things where you try to win or you feel yourself losing, all the things that you go through when you become terribly selfish, you know? Just all the things, all the stages of selfishness that cause you the most acute, sort of petty misery, I suppose. I mean, all those forms of growing up

that you have to burn through, you know? Those are just things that need to happen. And that's why I think it's okay to call it something like spiritual greed, because you've got to get going down the track. You've got to get going towards some form of evolution. And if you're just fine, if you just, if you think this society

is just a fucking blast, then you may not get going down the evolutionary track because you're just having such a good time. You know what I mean? You have to have some reason to try to absolve a knot. You have to have some sort of problem to get going, right? And I think that when you encounter, like you did, like you did,

like you were describing this, encountering this kind of dark horse, this kind of sullen person at first, which is exactly how it was, because we changed together, side by side, we went through all these changes. And I think the way a person who is kind of like trained in the baby end of the

pool the way they show you like don't go over there and they you know give you the basic rules and the codes and and all the things you're supposed to be afraid of you know strangers crack rock all these things like you you internalize that stuff and then when you encounter somebody who you can see is like existing in a bit of a beyond good and evil sort of biosphere, what you would call it space, then then you're then you're like, then your warning signs start getting Fuck yeah they do. You're not following the same rules as me, man.

You know, whatever. Like you're you're not you're not playing the same rules as me, man. You know, whatever, like you're not playing the game by the rules. And if you're also on top of that saying that this non-participation and the rules that we've all been taught to adhere to is making you happy, fuck you. You're supposed to be in hell now.

You didn't follow the rules. You should be miserable. And yet somehow you are happy. And because you actually are happy, you know, there's a difference between saying I'm happy when you're not, which is, by the way, like, one of the cultural traditions of the day. That's just, that's the new L.O. is lying that you're happy.

Uh, you,'re happy you you or I guess conversely like you know expressing that you're miserable But your misery is being caused because of your compassion or some bullshit You know you your misery is a result of your sensitivity to have the suffering of the world You know which is another awesome deception, but either way, to like meet someone who is not getting rolled by the suffering of the world and is able to look at the world in a neutral way is fucked up if you haven't, like,

if you have really been like working hard, you know, to follow the rules. And it scares people, dude. It's scary. And it implies, like, they could kill me and not care. I think it implies not only they could create some grave, you know, violent act against me, which is which is, by the way, true. Because because you because the person is not living by your code. Yeah. So the warning signs are real. And, and then on the back end of it, too, like if you actually start to be seduced by their frequency, then it could mean that you've grown up in a cult.

And they're suggesting that you are deluded, and you are lost within the labyrinth of this cult that's trained you. And that's gotta be super fucking depressing too. Oh my God, yeah, well, I mean, you're, so it's just like, got it, you know, I'll quote Neil Young. Oh, to live on Sugar Mountain

with the barkers and the color balloons. You can't be 20 on Sugar Mountain. Oh, you're thinking that you're leaving there too soon. You know you're on Sugar fucking Mountain. Literally Sugar Mountain. Everyone's eating fucking sugar. Poisoning yourself culturally, traditionally poisoning yourself.

You're like, you've not only been trained to sort of eat shitty food and buy into a kind of like concept of like a finish line before you die where you will be happy. That's what the movies show you, where the credits roll. But also, you're miserable because all of it's a fucking lie. And you've caught on it's a lie in an emotional, instinctual way, but you start thinking, well, I must be miserable right now because of my net lack of adherence to the rules

or because I haven't gotten to the finish line yet. I'm in the intermediary phase before I cross that finish line, the credits roll, and I smile for the rest of my life. And so you've invested, and that is, of course, the classic, the technique gets used in so many nefarious ways the classic way is you go to buy a car And the dude you're ready to buy but you're like, can you come down a little bit on the price and the guys like, you know What let me go talk to my supervisor and he vanishes for like 30 minutes and you've been sitting there for 30 fucking minutes

You're getting steamed because you're like what the fuck it's a question like you can't text him or something just fucking ask if it can come down or not man but what's really happening is they know if they make you sit in that fucking seat long enough you feel more and more invested and committed to buying the fucking car so you've been sitting in the seat of late-stage capitalism you've been really invested the seat of late-stage capitalism. You've been really invested. You... yeah, sure, the political system's fucked up. But man, I'm telling you, it still works.

And yeah, sure, there's some bad people out there, bad apples in the world, but ultimately, there's no fucking way that the people running the show are murderous, greedy people who just are sorcerers and want to get more and more power. You're out of your mind. What are you talking about? Alex Jones? You're crazy. And because if you start subscribing to any of those things, even in light, light ways, then suddenly, whoa, dude, you're out of Sugar Mountain.

Now you're in fucking, like, now you're in the swamp of the unknown You don't have the map anymore because the map was fucking wrong and people figured out the map was wrong for millennia They've known the map is fucking wrong and those people come along and have some way of saying this map is totally wrong It's off and they are and they get crucified they get fucking Rejected for most of them. So, you know what I mean, like that is the, yeah, fuck that. Fuck that. Fuck that. Enjoy Sugar Mountain, by the way.

Do it! Enjoy, like go for it, man. I mean, I think there's something really kind of hardcore about the true adherence to the norms of default reality. I think if you look at that as a cult, which it most certainly is, I feel the same way I used to feel, you know, sitting next to a Hare Krishna at 4 a.m. in a Hare Krishna temple whose head is shaved and who's wearing robes and who's reading out of the Srimad Bhagavatam while someone blows a conch shell.

But the difference is the Hare Krishna knows they've engaged in a process that is designed to evolve them whereas the default reality that here is the default reality they don't they don't realize that they are actively engaged in a non-stop series of rituals that has been prescribed to them by people. They'll never fucking meet who are running the show No, you nailed it. I mean I was reading a Reading a the Miles Davis autobiography last night because you know It's so beautiful to try to time travel into the 40s fuck Yeah, I was just thinking about that like why am I so addicted?

to the past? You know, to the 40s and 50s and 60s? And it's because, like, back then, you might willingly join a cult. It was, like, kind of fun. But now, you're not joining the cult willingly so much. I mean, it's the same fucking thing. It's obviously much worse back then,

because you're really... But it was like a fun practice. Like these guys sound like they're saying some really interesting things. Right. You know, whereas now it's like everybody in the cult. It's become so much more subtle, you know, so it's kind of harder to convince people of it. And I think kind of because it's such a good illustration, I'm going to resort to the Logan's run thing again, which I did in our last podcast, but, but imagine, you know, that you are inside

the biosphere in the safe place where they're offering you all these fruits of all these rewards. Yeah, digital prostitutes come through, you know, this beaming thing and the best food just beams into your food, into your room and all this stuff. And you're going to get reincarnated. And then like you're looking through the surface to the outer world where I'm at, essentially in a world of like, it's kind of like hell, you know, it's burning. It looks like it's the desert. It's Christ in the desert as you're painting that you

describe. And like, I am out there and for you to leave the biosphere, for you to leave the cult, there has to be something that I suggest to you that's completely convincing that there's some great reward out there. Yeah, but you are inside of the place where all the rewards are. And you look you're looking through the plate glass window at me out in what looks really unfun, you know, like this this place to go die. And so there has to be some reason why you would want to abandon all of those good

things reincarnation all the things they're offering you inside this biosphere. That, youation, all the things they're offering you inside this biosphere that, you know, that makes you want to transgress, that makes you want to go out there and become like, you know, a survivalist, you know, and so technically something about that room, you coming into my room, realizing that I wasn't actually a total dick. I mean, there were days where I look back and people were like, wow, you are a complete asshole. And I'm like, I must have been being one, because I can remember that reality that I was probably in that zone.

But then together, we go into this room and we perform the calls. You leave the room initially feeling guilty, but then as life goes on and you kind of, you judge the transgression emotionally, you start to realize like maybe outside the biosphere, you know, where I'm standing in hell, there's some true, there's a deep truth to it, like a deep truth that that's within you that you cannot avoid

Yeah, I mean that dude yes, and then I'm saying absolutely man Yeah, for sure and you just like you're saying about the music or any other thing It's like you know if you've never been to a desert by the way It's like and you've only seen movie versions of deserts, when you get out to the real desert, it's fucking beautiful. It's like one of the most beautiful places you've ever seen in your life.

That's actually one of the first cool things about going into an actual desert for the first time, is that you realize everything you thought about the desert was wrong. That not only is it, yeah, is it like, there's fucking, like, there's not water, it's a fucking desert, there's cacti, there's things with thorns on them everywhere.

But there's a general vibe. I mean, there's a reason that one out of five people you run into at Joshua Tree are on mushrooms. Like, you know what I mean? They're either mushrooms or they're models going to lay on a rock. But the, or both maybe. The point is like, that's the other thing is like, you know, you, you, whatever the thing is in the deep end, you can't know it until you go there.

That's the leap of faith and the To me like that the something there's something really delightful when you start realizing that oh It's beautiful here like this is supposed to be like is it safe no the desert is the fucking desert safe It's no you're gonna fucking die. You're dead meat if you don't, you're dead. You're probably gonna die if you're lost out there. But like, is it a pleasure palace? No, it's not a fucking pleasure palace. But then that's when you start realizing the pleasure palace is, everything's the desert. And the pleasure palace is everything's the desert and the pleasure palace is the most insidious form of

desert in that it tricks you into thinking it's this opulent place of safety and food and whatever the fucking thing is that you're buying into and yet in the pleasure palace just like the desert people just drop dead people get murdered people burn to death You know people get arrested for breaking the rules of the pleasure palace People get arrested who haven't even broken the rules and just fucking knew something they weren't supposed to know the pleasure palace is as

Dangerous at the desert, but because it doesn't look like a desert you don't guard yourself in the same way you do in the desert you don't realize that you're in a sacred space as much as the desert is a sacred space and so and so that's why in the pleasure palace or whatever sugar mountain you're in a lot more danger than you are in the desert because at least in the desert you you know, there's no water here You're not gonna find food there. It's gonna be hard and In the play and Sugar Mountain, it's the same fucking thing, but you look at yourself and you're like man. I'm failing My life is I'm just must not be doing something right? It just must not have what it takes

I don't have the X factor You sound like you're describing a soldier, you know that went off and went through all these horrible things but learned all these like sort of core lessons comes back to You know America and and is is just put through sort of like this weird culture shock where they're not and is just put through sort of like this weird culture shock where they're not enjoying the pleasure palace. And they're like, they just kind of get so confused in a Jacob's Ladder way and they're just like, let me go back. Let me go back to the war.

Yeah, to the shit. Go back to the shit. Get back in there, man. That was when I was alive. That's when I felt. And again, like this, any parent knows that the people who judge parents are the current

Culturally fashionable thing is to say like I'm not gonna fall for that shit have kids I'm not gonna fall for that look at them trapped look at them fucking trapped in hell I'm free But anyone who's had kids knows they're right in some way. Their analysis is correct. Yes, you are way, way more free than I am in a kind of like superficial way in the sense that if you wanna fucking stay up

till 5 a.m. getting blasted on a Thursday, you can do that and you don't have to get up in an hour to take your kid To school and you don't have little little humans around you depending on you not going fucking insane and being like emotionally stable as much as possible so that they don't like They don't have to turn into hyper sensitive adults who had fucked up parents and now they're like little fucking squirrels in the forest every moment looking at any sign that their daddy's gonna smack them or whatever, that's what you could do.

But you know what I mean? But the parenting is a desert. And you're out there in that fucking desert, and you're waking up early, and you've read, oh, in a spiritual life, you wake up early. In a spiritual life, you wake up early and you fucking pray. You wake up early and you're selfless, you give. You wake up in the monastery, you're like,

I joined the monastery, I'm gonna do this With kids it's like no dude. You got to do it. You have to there's no fucking choice anymore You have no choice now or unless you're a monster so that is a desert and what I'm saying is This fantasy that convenience equals happiness Is one of the most destructive fucking fantasies in the modern world and it's horrific and the horror If it in the sense that the corporations who have so much fucking money they Trumpet this bullshit dream to sell Cushions to sell phones to sell laundry detergent and fucking Doritos. So they send

out the hypnotic sermon of materialism. Every time they make a commercial, look, look at how happy they are, man. Look at that. See their joy? Don't you want it and then you know what I mean and that gets in people's heads and now their their whole life is spent pursuing a hypnotic lie injected into them by vampires who are inviting them to transform their life energy into dollars and then give them life energy units because they think they don't think they're buying a fucking car they think they're buying the next phase of their life they don't you know what I mean they don't think they're fucking buying the the new clothes just because

they need to wear something they're like this is the new me now I'm free now I am the new me just like in the commercial the fucking sneakers they're buying those fucking sneakers because they want to be healthy and they think if they have the sneakers they'll start exercising you know what I mean and that's the other thing the fucking sugar mountain is run on blood! Sugar mountain is fucking... You want to... That's the other funny thing about it is these motherfuckers are so superstitious. You know, they're always like...

I don't know, literally crossing themselves, but they're so superstitious of people like you. You fucking Satanist. And when you really look at what they're up to and what's going on, you realize, like, oh my God, from a kind of, from a sort of mythological perspective, they are living in the kingdom of Lucifer. They are probably worse than the ancient Babylonians who are sacrificing children. Because again, if you're taking a kid and throwing it into fire, which is already horrific, at least you're doing it because you're like, I worship Baal, this god of darkness.

But if you're like... It seems like there's probably like a legal... It seems like there's like a legal defense for capitalism in the sense that they probably are able to get away with this because they can, there's a clause at the end of the line that says like, well, you were too, you were so stupid that you bought this. You know what I mean? And then they kind of like, they get absolved in the sense you've seen this in many, many true crime shows where like the person taking everybody's money effectively gets away because the people voluntarily gave it to them.

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Thank you, VB Health. Yeah, dude, I'm so whose fault is it in the end whose fault is it that some dumbass thinks they can fly and jumps off a cliff it's not the fucking fault. I mean if the natural world and the laws of the natural world are Universal realities that get converted into some kind of linguistic cultural grid then There is never a stupidity defense Unless you're like an infant maybe. But in general, this is like, dude, you gotta watch the Ashley Madison documentary.

I'm sorry, I talked about it on an earlier podcast. But, so there's various cheaters on it, and it's really cool to see the different types of cheaters. There is the like, unrepentant cheater. Yeah, I fucking fuck around, man, whatever. There's that. And there's real virtue in that kind of cheater. I know it's wrong and I'm gonna do it because I want to.

Virtue, right? And then there's the polyamorous cheaters where the guy's like, uh, yeah, my wife lets me fuck other women but I have to get her permission and also she's a dominatrix who pegs dudes every day and we fucking love each other. Virtue. And that, from that perspective, there's no deception happening and also, and they're like freaks and they fucking love it. So great. But then, you get this, the mystery unto oneself cheater, which is what this one guy is. So this is of all the forms of evil, the most vile. Because this guy, somehow with a straight face, is like, you know, I was just going on Ashley Madison, I didn't even know what I wanted.

I was talking to these women, and I knew I would meet up, and I'm like, what could happen here, really? Like, I just didn't really even know what I wanted. I was talking to these women and I knew I'd meet up and I'm like, what could happen here really? Like I just didn't really even know what I was doing. And it's like, dude, you pay taxes, you have a job, you pay a mortgage, you drive, you walk, you read, you can do math and you expect me to believe that when you went on Ashley Madison, you didn't know you're gonna be balls deep and some fucking lady Like you really thought that wasn't gonna happen cuz like like so it's like mystery unto oneself

tricks does self-deception to fully experience the hedonic peak Without guilt, you know or with a sense of like, I'm still a good person, but oh my god, but this is all just a, this is a confusing mistake that I should be mouth-fucking this lady at a day's end. You know what I mean? And I, to me that, that is why I do not think it's defensive. There is defense against it, though it would be nice if there were.

I don't know. I'm not saying like they're all going to hell on Sugar Mountain. I'm just saying if you have the slightest glimmer underneath all of the conditioning that something is amiss, then now it's your fault. Now you are participating in your own mediocrity and destruction and but you're a coward and so you don't want to admit the participation is happening that would be my analysis of it. Well let me ask you by the way let me just say this I'm sorry Emil if it's gonna be so funny I now wish we'd done this before I

wish that the prank call we were gonna play was us calling someone being like is your refrigerator running? Like if this long spiritual set up was for just like the stupidest prank call. No I mean I think it it ultimately actually ends up being the one where we've talked about playing ends up being incredibly positive in so many ways, but I was gonna ask you, since we're talking about the precipice of being introduced to sort of like, you could call them occult truths, but like the beyond good and evil sphere, whatever, if you're talking about that precipice,

has there been a time in your life where, and you don't have to even go down this road, but it'll spur you onto something. Obviously, we survived that collision, and we, to this day, are stronger for it, and all that stuff. And we're happy and happy that we know each other, but was there ever a person you came up against

and you saw that they were powerful against and you saw that they were powerful and you saw that they were above the code and sort of like living on a different strata and they actually kind of did slash you and hurt you and that actually created some tension in the script for you? I'd have to think about that one for a little bit. It's such a good question. First of all, it's very rare to run into people like that.

That's one thing. Like incredibly rare. And also sometimes people like that don't feel know, being known. So there were some people like that, I fantasize stay invisible on purpose, as they sort of, you know, try to get a gauge on who the fuck you are, and if they even wanna deal with whatever you are.

You know what I mean? Because you have to be an appropriate victim that they can get something out of efficiently. But you've talked about this concept several times now that I look back. You've talked about how people make the mistake of thinking that someone, if they're a wizard or a magician, that means they're good. Oh, no. Yeah, because someone can demonstrate some kind of city, because someone can demonstrate

some sort of ability, which by way isn't like necessarily Jedi tricks But you know you could say a city If you've ever been around a very fascinating person And you realize that like a lot of time has passed and you've been drawn into this person's aura That's a city. That's an example of some kind of like potentially unperfected instinctual power. And so these can be developed, apparently,

and or just via being out in the desert long enough, suddenly access to these things becomes easier for certain people, and that would be the beginning of magic, that would be the beginning of, that would be the beginning of you know, this is the Look at the magician tarot card, you know Someone who is like organized the elements is no longer the fool going off the cliff Which is sugar mountain the next tarot card after the fool is the magician as this evolution happens. And so Yeah, but just because somebody has developed some kind of

spiritual quality does not in any way shape or form indicate morality, especially like Western, like, you know, the ethics of the Western world. And this is where people run into all, do you remember in Dharamsala? This is one of the funniest fucking things. You know, in Dharamsala, God, who told me this? So there are all these like, you know, Dharamsala is the place where a lot of the Tibetan diaspora ended up. And Tibetan Buddhism is tantric Buddhism. And so there's a shamanic element to it. And I don't know if this is true or not, but someone fucking told me, I think in Dharamsala, that what happens is these fucking tourists come through,

these women come through, and they meet like a hot Tibetan dude who also happens to be a Tantric master, and they get fucked in a way that they have never been fucked before. Like, it's like, it's like whoever was banging them in the West, that was like, that wasn't even sex. All of a sudden, like, their chakras are being activated, they're remembering their past lives, they're, coming out of their body, they're having like multiple multiple multiple orgasms, everything they can see. I was meant to meet this person forever and it's true and then they don't leave. They get sucked in. Apparently there's people out there and probably in other parts of the world that have

actual just like essentially harems of women that they have like that they have like Like fucked into like some kind of semi enlightened state and And so like the Happens I think in the West is some westerner has read Shirley Maclean or some shit and then goes to fucking India and Meets like a shyvite who drinks out of skulls Like who find skulls and drinks blood out of skulls and they expect that person to adhere to Western ethics Mean in which I think to them must be hilarious

It must be the funniest shit they've ever seen because they didn't grow up in that system They don't think sex is evil. They don't think that fucking is wrong. They're there in a totally different Cultural dimension and the hubris of people in the West is That is that you know, I hate it's the words been used so much maybe it's starting not to mean as much it's a colonizer attitude it's like I'm gonna come over here and because I'm nice and spiritual I'm gonna find an actual spiritual being and grow and they are gonna follow my rules because I know what's at least I know what is

Right and wrong and the whole thing falls apart of that moment because you knew Then you wouldn't be going to fucking India to meet some guru So, how do you think you know so you come you come over there with your bag of this is how you're supposed to act enlightened being you don't look happy That's not what a happy person does a happy person doesn't raise of the carcass of a dead child and bring it back to life temporarily make it dance around in front of me in front of a fire whatever the fuck it is they're doing right so yes sorry long answer but truly you're

you're if you're around someone and they start demonstrating some spiritual potency and you think, oh great, they're gonna be nice to me, boy are you in for a fucking wild ride, because that's probably never gonna happen. Well, I mean, even though that sounded like it was gonna have a bad ending to her initial idealist fantasy, it's still just the layers and layers of evolution

in the sense that she's, you know, she's going to have her fantasy deflated, you know, and then that's going to be some form of growth. And then whether you go to NAMM, whether you come back, no matter where you are, you're gonna keep coming back to the truth that the labyrinth of self-abuse is your own castle. You'll never escape, you know what I mean? Never shall you escape. I love it. It doesn't matter, you don't go off to not,

you don't go off and escape the temptations, you know, essentially. No, you don't go off and escape the temptations, essentially. No you don't. You don't, you carry your harem around in your head. And dude, that, but again, that is also an outsider perspective. Because on Sugar Mountain, the game is that you're a victim. On Sugar Mountain, if some fucked up shit

is happening to you, it probably is because you're a victim of the fucked up thing, from big to small. And so in Sugar Mountain, the concept of drive all blames into oneself is an outsider concept. It's like, no, I will not drive all the fucking blames into myself. No, this is happening to me because of my entanglement in a fucking fucked up system, and also because I'm neuro-fucking-divergent, and because, you know, my fucking bone spurs.

You know what it's like for me to walk? It's like walking... It's walking on razors, motherfucker. And you think that like, you fucking think it's my fucking fault that I got in a relationship with a monster? No. Have you met my dad?

Blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. It's like, and nobody wants to hear it. Who's really bought into the victim thing, because again, victim, if you're a victim, then like you do get to have this kind of Virtue about you. You know what I mean you're surviving your victimization Versus that you would somehow Brought it on yourself

In some way now that sounds really callous because obviously the question would be okay Yeah, but what about what you saying like a fucking kid who got fucked? Yeah, but what about what you saying like a fucking kid who got fucked Got murdered by their uncle brought it on themselves And I have no answer to that and that is where the argument falls apart And I've heard spiritual people try to say it's because they chose that incarnation or whatever I don't buy that so I don't have a full answer for it Maybe not everyone maybe drive all blames into oneself isn't applicable to everybody But a lot for me personally

Subjectively the times where I've really felt like you said that person got me and I look back Maybe the invitation to be hurt wasn't like in Dracula where vampire the Dracula is like do you enter into my Mansion of your own free will, which is like the vampire invitation. Maybe it was something much more subtle, but still there was some piece of me that could have seen it, that should have known, and thus my fault. It seems like kind of a martial arts like distinction not that I am a pro but like Somebody that if Bruce Lee smacks you in the face

Yeah, the initial the initial reaction is gonna be like why did you do that that that was a terrible thing you did But say you were frozen there for the rest of your life. You're just like oh he he crossed me He betrayed me, he took his thing. But someone on the path to becoming Bruce Lee is going to see, someone with the spiritual hunger, let's say, is gonna see that the master hit me in this way to show me that this could be done,

and if there is a way to avoid it, then I have to develop that. Yes, there you go, exactly. And that is called in Buddhism, wrathfulness, which is one of the approaches in transmitting the Dharma is wrathfulness. And wrathfulness isn't usually slapping someone in the face, usually it's telling someone the truth.

It's usually just that. And usually the way the truth is told is not like you can't handle the truth It's very what makes it wrathful is the delivery mechanism is quite often love and so it's not just the truth It's a loving truth. It's not the asshole who comes up to you and tells you your breath stinks and is happy because you're embarrassed It's a it's the with the intent behind telling you the truth is not to cut you, but rather to cut something binding you that is hurting you, but you think without it you can't survive. And that slicing away surgically by someone like that is wrathfulness, and it's good, but boy, it don't feel good. And I'm sure it doesn't feel good

to get slapped in the face by Bruce Lee. And it sure as fuck doesn't feel good to have someone like that tell you the truth if you've been in denial regarding some aspect of your character that is bringing you down. I think we've talked about this, and I think you told me that there's you know that a great teacher understands the timing of

telling the truth that that there's a version of telling the truth I think there's a phrase you told me once but it's so blunt and it's so off-timed that it's actually just it just induces pain it doesn't induce growth no growth nothing happens it's useless and that that is the on Sugar Mountain traditionally we tell each other the truth that is always mean and there is not it's always at the wrong time and it's generally not benevolent you know and by the way man there's another thing that bothered me about you. Let's go down the list. You didn't care. Like I got the sense that you were not encumbered by guilt

in the way that I was. And I got the sense that that was cheap. And also I got the feeling of like should I want? And I didn't think this like in these exact words, but a sense of like, you know, well if he's doesn't care and if He's gonna be happy regardless of phenomena around him Then I can no longer hurt him if I needed to defend myself

right, you know what I mean like the the the the How do you get vengeance on someone who's happy? Regardless of whatever and I don't mean that I'm like I'm like one day I might have to get revenge on that guy But in the sense of like in a normal sort of relationship the give-and-take Within it is if I give you good things you give me good things If I give you bad things you give me bad things back

And there's a give-and-take of these like either vengeance tokens or love tokens or whatever this transactional thing and if it balances out great and so When that is removed from the transaction which is I I don't know if I'm necessarily gonna be able to give you Happy tokens or pain tokens Then now it's like what are you some kind of fucking communist? Like you you know you become like you become kind of like you you can't get lassoed anymore in the You know what I mean, in the transactional,

like, normal way of hanging out with people on Sugar Mountain. There's a little element of that, and we probably won't go down this road, but there's a little element of that in both of our fathers, I think. Like, in their eyes, you know, you could see, they could kinda take you or leave leave you in a way maybe.

And then that creates, for a lot of people, lifetime of trauma. I just saw my dad as who he was. I didn't have any problem with it. How often did you get to hang out with your dad? I mean, only once a year at a certain point on or something like that you know which you know they divorced when I was two but but that's not that's not any great I have no great message. Oh hold on lost

internet. Hold on, email are you there? I lost internet go back one minute and start over. Well I just I really have no great, I shouldn't have brought up fathers. But it's a way. Okay, we don't have to talk about it. No, it's just a way that, in which I think a lot of people experience that kind of coldness. Yeah.

But like, but that thing you're talking about, I would say has been one of the major themes of my life, with friends and things, especially when I was younger, and definitely it was a thing when we met too, is I was not really available for a lot of the time when I was younger, and so people would sense that, and then they would try to be mean to me to evoke some sort of reaction.

Exactly. And also looking for some sort of, probably love, but like in the wrong direction, which would then make me pull away and disappear. Dude, that is one of the real tragic things, man, is like you realize like some people, they wanna, if you are mad at them, they think you love them, you're concerned with them.

If you're, you know what I mean? So the form of attention is, the flavor of the attention is not important as the attention. And yeah, and so then they try to get some kind of burst out of you because it confirms that you mean something to them And it's and it's really sad and it's a real misunderstanding I think of like what love actually would look like Did that love as it actually is might be something that isn't

Transactional and one and if you've ever like as it actually is might be something that isn't transactional. Well, and if you've ever been on a date or something with someone where you see that the wires are crossed in that way, where they're looking for negative attention and then you pull away, or maybe get a divorce with someone you've been with for 10 years. It is incredibly sad actually as you cut them loose because you need to and they go drifting and hurling through the

cosmos with this kind of this karma, you know, whatever. It is not fun at all. But like, in the end, you have to you end up having to protect yourself and everybody's in that situation, everybody's backs against the wall. If something toxic comes into their bloodstream, you gotta get the fuck out, you know? It's kind of nothing personal at that point, you know? Well, in the human to human, right, like yes.

But what I like about the alleged guru situation is they won't cut you. If you wanna not be around them Because it's too much fine When you call them after years of not talking to them, they pick up the phone like you didn't leave There isn't that well, where have you been? Oh, well, so now you're just gonna call me and everything's fine thing It's immediate pickup and it's like, you know, one of the names for Neem Krolli Baba was, I can't remember, the tiger of something. Because like if he decided it was time for you, he would pounce on you and wouldn't let go.

But that didn't mean, wouldn't let go like you can't leave the ashram. But wouldn't let go in the sense of like that connection was always there for your whole life and even if you never talked or saw him again, it was there. And the other thing about the difference between that sort of thing you're talking about or the general like the way a lot of us are connecting to people and the other thing, the desert dweller people, is that it's so subtle but powerful in that the significance of the encounter stays with you.

You're not spending all your time thinking about a lot of people, but these people stick out in your head, even if you only like spend an afternoon with them or something, you keep going back to that afternoon, something important happened there and maybe you don't even know what that was. So that's another quality is like you might meet these fucking people years before you actually like start engaging with them. You never you never know. But they don't

let go. They don't do the normie fucking thing of like I'm going to teach you a lesson and now you're going to learn that if you don't do what I want I withhold love from you. Classic trick. It's just always there. And then that is also intolerable because it's like, what the fuck? You can't just love me no matter what. You can't be there for me no matter what. You can't just, what? That doesn't work like that. I'm bad. Don't you see? There's also something weird about the way you painted the picture of the woman going to India and choosing who's going to be her guru.

Like I feel like in the real world, the guru has to choose you too. Like it has to like you back because the only way to really help somebody is to care about them. And if you just, you know, a guru isn't just someone behind a bulletproof glass partition, and is like, next, you know what I mean? It's like, it's a two-way street. Yeah, there are a lot, I mean, it's a,

what's happening, I mean, like, guru, name is like, really, like, that name is stigmatized for many good reasons. But like, the thing that we're talking about, God, who was it? Abraham Maslow, the actualized being, I think is what he called it, because you couldn't say enlightenment back then,

you weren't supposed to say love, so you would say unconditional positive regard, but the actualized being is alive, for real alive. Maybe more human than you are. They're feeling everything. They're there, man, they're in it. And that's what's wild about it, is if you've been around people

who have a general anesthetic of mundane day-to-day life on Sugar Mountain, and then you meet someone who's not numb down, that's the other sense of danger, right? Like they're not, they seem to be like really awake, like more awake than like they're supposed to be. And then they, then the next thing you would think is that means they're seeing things about me that I think I can hide from people.

They're seeing things in me that I think I can hide from people. They're seeing things in me that I hide, and I kind of think they might see those things, and I can't hide from them like I can other people. And then that's where the two paths diverge, because they do see those things, but they don't care, and they're not using those things to manipulate you. The other side, where it becomes the sorcerer, they see those things and they're going to use them to control you.

Right? And that's where the two things part, I think. Well, and it's also like sort of like the entryway, the peak experience, whether it's the tantric sex or the guru showing you real love for the first time, is like you're sort of a converter in that moment where you could fall prey to great addiction. Because you're experiencing this amazing thing so fast. And this beautiful thing in the Miles Davis book last night where he basically only ends up getting off of heroin because he sort of like, he hits bottom in so many cities, he ends up having to move to Detroit. And in Detroit, of course, of all cities, the heroin is cut so many times, it's so insanely

bad that when he's shooting it up, it eventually just, it just doesn't do anything at all. So he gets lucky in reverse, right? Cause the Pleasure Palace backfires. It stops working. Yeah, cause they fucking cut it so many times because of capitalism. So it's kind of like, he ends up being given this gift

that the addiction, it doesn't even ... Yeah. It doesn't get you off. And that's the goal. And also the other thing is the general sort of... And again, I'm mythologizing a thing that I think if it does show up, maybe it doesn't show up. I would imagine it. I'm mythologizing something. I'm sort of like making a cartoon character here

of a guru or something like that. But the... Well, with Neem Kholi Baba, you know, that was a big thing he would do. You would get jowed, which meant leave. And at some point, theseppies would hide from him when they thought they were gonna like get sent out of the ashram But good, but he would do everything he was doing Wasn't based on like anything more than like now, you know This whatever it may be this person is doing what you're saying

Idolizing me or turning me into a drug or now this person needs to integrate whatever the fuck happened during their experience here and go out into the world for a while. And so I think that's the other thing is like, if in an interaction with someone like that, you would have to imagine that the sense of magic going away and suddenly like, dude, they seem like a dick or why aren't they talking to me or what the fuck you have to look at that as like no they're showing you something right now now

you're seeing how much you got attached to the idea of what they were and then fuck that's not that that can't be the destination, right? Like, truly. Dude, such a fucking long buildup to plug our prank call album. Are you kidding? We're fucking idiots. We have, like, we have an album of prank calls that's coming out on Monday, and the links are gonna be down there.

Or if you're listening to this, you can find it at my website, dougatrustle.com. But this is a tape of some of our favorite prank calls that we made during our friendship when we were in college. And they hold up and finally, well, Emel is a master of doing this stuff. You have all, the whole process that you've introduced me to is wild of getting a tape made and all this stuff,

but we have tapes that are coming out on Monday of these calls and I think there's a, what's it on the tape you know You mean like the band camp. It's gonna be on band camp Yeah, and so this will be easy if you just essentially the record the tape is called Insidious mind control. So if you go looking for insidious mind control that phrase is probably gonna pop up pretty quick. Yes Yes, and this this call that we're gonna play for you, and we probably won't play the whole thing

because it's like 10 minutes. This call of all the calls, it's one of, for me, it's like a really dark call. And the backstory is I used to work as I would take catalog orders at a place called Clifford and Wilson this big warehouse and you couldn't tell the difference between a call coming from your manager and a call coming from someone wanting to buy a cardigan or whatever and so one night in Emel's dorm room in the shadows I we decided to try to call home shopping network and see if they had the same

system that they couldn't tell the difference between an outside and an inside call and we were delighted to find out that indeed there's no way they could tell the fucking difference, meaning I could pose as a manager and have, like do a prank call as a manager calling some employee at home shopping. And so that's what this call is. Should we play it?

Yeah, go for it. ["Sweet Homework"] Should we play it? Yeah, go for it. maybe a little vulgar. What's your reaction? Well, you try to try and calm them down if you can. I mean, listen to them. Okay, pausing it there. So, okay, so that's all you get. That's all you. So that was a big moment because no hesitation, no hesitation, she immediately subscribed to that Ranny, which is the name I use, not Randy, Ranny. She immediately subscribed to the idea that Ranny in customer service was her boss somehow,

and immediately went right along with it. There wasn't even a moment of like, who? Randy? So, and that was really exciting when we realized, like, on the hook, immediately. To them. Then what do you do? Well, if they're using vocabulary,

then you don't have to take abuse. That's correct. You must let her know that, you know, she needs to try and find out what the problem is. What is the problem? Well, let's do a case scenario. OK. A person calls.

They haven't gotten their order in time. Oh, yeah. And they're expecting it. Of course. Let's say it's for their birthday. Yes. And they're a little upset because they didn't get what they needed.

I know. What's your reaction? Well, you apologize, of course. And hopefully it's going postal so you can say that it's coming postal so we, you know, the postal can't be delayed because of the weather. You know, you're trying to calm them as much as possible. There are no guarantees in life, you know, and people who think that they are, you know, they're being misled, and we just gotta let them know on their bike. It can be, you know, slightly longer. What? Do you tell them there's no guarantees in life?

No, I'd like to though, no, of course not. No, we all would like to, wouldn't we? Yes, we would. I mean, some of these people call you think they're just idiots. Well, they're lonely and find a lot of them and they want conversation. They want to yell at someone and you just let them vent, you know, as much as possible. As long as they don't, you know, throw any vulgar at you, you know, you don't need to sit there and take that. Or you let them know that, ma'am, if you'll calm down, I'll get you a supervisor. It's like metaphorically, you just let them beat you to a bloody pulp.

Well, kind of. You know, but not abusively. You know, you don't need to, if they're swearing at you, you let them know that you don't need to take this, and when they calm down, the police call back. And you can even moderately humiliate them. Well, moderately, as long as they don't realize and let them know. When you're, you know, but you don't want to let them know. But you don't want to be nasty.

We can't afford to be nasty. You could say a sarcastic joke maybe if they are... No, no, it's not too good to be sarcastic if you're being monitored. That would go against you. Excellent. Excellent. Let's say someone calls. This is another case scenario. A person calls, they're speaking with you on the phone, and they're upset because they're worried that there's a burglar outside. Okay, so we won't talk about this. So that's the intro, right? This episode of the DTFH is supported by BetterHelp.

Friends, do you have some self-care routine that you always stick to? I mean, it doesn't have to be a big thing like what I do, which is like every day I do 700 pull-ups and then run 25 miles, which is why I have to wake up at 3 a.m. But if I don't do that, I feel a little off. But whatever your thing may be, it's interesting how sometimes in our day-to-day routines, we leave out what's going on here or in here. And that's where therapy comes in. You've heard me talk about this before on the podcast. I have benefited

so much from therapy. I'm not embarrassed by it. Are you kidding me? We have a neurological hard drive up here. All our memories, instincts, habits, ideas, preconceived notions about the universe somehow synchronized by a mushy gray thing that apparently has an odor to it. Not to mention we have neurons in our heart. Oh my god, and I'm not like being some kind of scientific materialist here. I do think there's a spiritual dimension, but the point is, come on man, you're putting on lotion every day, but are you really thinking about your internal life? And also, maybe you don't know what therapy is even like. You've seen some movies, you think you're going to get psychoanalyzed, it's going to be weird and freaky, but man, usually therapists are the most down-to-earth awesome people ever. It's not what you think. You don't have to go in there for some like,

you can go in there for specific reasons. It's not like you're going to be in there forever. My point is, if you're thinking about therapy, you should try BetterHelp. It's easy, it's super convenient, it's all done completely online. You just fill out a questionnaire, you get matched with a licensed therapist, they make it easy to switch any time, and best of all, you can do it from your house. You don't have to drive somewhere, and for a lot of us who might look for any excuse to not do leg day or to go to therapy, that drive can be all you need to procrastinate. This way you can just do it from home and it works. It works from home just as much as it does in person, but you'll never know until you try. So try it out. Go to betterhelp.com forward slash Duncan and use code Duncan to get 10% off your first month. That's betterhelp.com forward slash Duncan and use code Duncan to get 10% off your first month.

Thank you BetterHelp for supporting the DTFH. Okay, that's the intro. It's weird. I didn't even remember her sounding so obedient. I guess that's where you started feeling guilty, is just like if somebody really falls for it genuinely, but slowly as usual, by the end of it, I mean she completely, she is playing along with you and she's really enjoying it,

and it feels, it doesn't feel in any way evil at all no But to me the sinister part of it was You know like first of all the setting I wish you guys could see the setting just picture like a fucking like Satanic dorm room. There's a painting on the wall That I think you found at a thrift store, this creepy, remember that painting, dude? This like weird creepy guy looking down at you. So fucked up. Yeah, we called him Robert.

Robert. And it's late at night and it's dark. I just remember being really dark and glowy in there. And the way this is happening is like, I'm sitting with the phone and then Emel is holding a tape recorder next to with the phone and then email is holding a tape recorder Next to the fucking phone and feeding me lines like and sometimes you'll hear him in here giving me lines but so it's in this like weird situation and then she's saying shit right away like

There are no guarantees in life and people who've been taught that are being misled in the Contextually, that's just such a creepy thing to hear some random person you're calling at home shopping network saying to you. And then also she thinks that you're her boss. And so it becomes magical at that point because now that she thinks that you're her boss,

there's just no telling where the call could go. Now this is a 10 minute call. Again, this is gonna be on the next tape release, but the tape that we're about to put out has many calls like this on there, like the quality, the mood of the calls is inevitably something like this, that's the name, insidious mind control.

So- Yeah, that arc of that call is so long and the payoff is impossible. I don't think you can play the whole thing right now. No, but I could jump ahead a little bit to where it really starts getting fucking weird. Like, yeah, go like eight minutes in or something. Okay, eight minutes.

Well, that's right. They do have an option. You know what the option is? What? Suffer or suffer, and why should we suffer? Do you know what I mean? No, I don't. Let me give you another example.

There's a good man by the name of Adolf Hitler who once said Kraknicksnacken, which means the lower are not the higher. Do you understand what that means? The lower are not the higher? Yes. I think that's pretty simplistic. It is very, but you know where the essence of wisdom is? Please tell me.

Simplicity. I agree with that. Exactly. And that's what it's about. You're doing an excellent job. Your superior calls to ask you a few questions. You're very kind to answer those questions because you understand about following orders, is that right? I don't do it very well, but I understand the system, yes. And that's what it comes down to, following orders of your superiors.

I'm very good with superiors because I think there's only one superior. I don't like the term superior. Oh, you can call it what you like. Exactly. But yes, I think when you're in the workplace, this is what they want, this is what you offer, and then this is what you do. And it goes into life, for instance. Exactly. Yes.

I'm not proud of it. I'm not a millionaire, so what do you do? I'm sorry? You're not a millionaire, so what do you do? I'm sorry? You're not a millionaire, so what do you do? You work. That's right. You work for your money. You work for your money.

And you obey rules. Exactly. And you follow laws. Right. And you rise up in power. Perhaps. Well, if Lucifer's with you. Well, now, that's debatable.

Well, we don't have to call it the powers of darkness, do we? We don't have to label it anything now, I suppose. I'm sorry? I don't think labels matter one way or the other. You can call it whatever you like. This is the age of enlightenment. We are entering an age of wisdom. Yes, we are. We're in there. Thanks to the powers of darkness. So I take it that you're a Lucifer disciple?

Yes, I am a disciple of the Dark Lord. Yeah, why? Oh, but I don't like the, I'm bored. You gave me that what? Well, the important thing here is not really just getting into religious matters, but to understand about our position in society That moment of like realizing like, you know, if someone's quoting Hitler just get off the fucking phone

Wait, hold on. Wait, I missed it. God damn it. I had stopped wait, damn it But that's all wait one second one second Yeah, that if someone's quoting Hitler you should get off the phone and then to follow that with like and Realizing this person is a professed Satanist and she she's just going she's going she's just going along with what with it You know what I mean?

And adding to it, that's why I think of that call as sinister. Well, and you're not gonna be able to, someone listening is not gonna be able to get the entire beautiful rhythm of that call with just a couple snapshots. Everyone that listens to that call essentially falls in love with her because she basically fences with you so elegantly

and she wins every little round. You know? And she does it with supreme grace and she's got that crazy like Kathleen Turner voice. And it's like she's pretty incredible, I mean, spiritually very attractive, like the way she kind of weaves and goes with you and then rejects you if she wants to,

even though you're her boss, she does it so, so sort of gently that you have no choice, but to just, by the time you're done with this like 11 minute call, everybody just always feels like they've been taken on this ride that was, yes, it dipped into darkness, but she rescues it in such a sort of life-affirming way. Yeah, yeah, for sure.

And that was just the other thing with these calls that was astounding and still is to this day to me is how long we could keep people on the phone. That was the other weird part. And she says that in the beginning, you know, people are lonely. They want to talk. I mean, it's just such a sad assessment of the world, of the modern world. People are so lonely that they're calling home shopping network for some human connection. And like with these calls, like you realize, oh my God, that is part of it is like people just want to talk and the how quickly they can forget their phone rang

and they picked it up and they still don't know who this person is. Yeah, unconsciously they may sense your enthusiasm to speak to them and that even translates as a form of attention and love. Yeah, man. Yeah, so yeah, the the the calls Are like Special you know in that in that in a way that I don't know and I know you're not supposed to say that if you're

the one who made them but like this is like 30 years ago and It wasn't me. It was like you it was like both of us like it was just this weird collaborative art project that made all these fucked up calls And finally we're gonna like release them into the world for better for worse Yeah in Collecting them in into one tape, you know, I felt like there was a little bit of science and balancing the subject matter and and the vibes and you gotta have a little bit of science in balancing the subject matter and the vibes. You gotta have a little flash of violence

every now and again. You have to prank all this, just the nature of it. But yeah, this particular call would be like on the next tape, which I assume would be the end of the collection next year sometime. Yeah, that's it. We have enough for two tapes, I would say. I think so.

I don't think there's probably, if there are more, there may be pale versions of the great ones. I don't think you could, and I wouldn't want to necessarily, but the other thing is you're capturing a time period too. I mean, that's the other thing is you have to understand these calls were made before cell phones. There weren't cell phones, right? Like this is pre-cell phone. This is the last days of like when you could call somebody and they didn't know what your number was. These were the last, this was

the days where the phone was a physical object hanging on your wall in your house and you know it was the ability to like look up a number who's calling me all of that stuff it just wasn't there so it was the glory days of prank calls man it's you could people still do new forms of what you would call a prank call but this this is analog, last days of prank call. Yeah, there's so many, there's a lot of layers actually, not that we're gonna spend a lot of time on it, but I never thought about the fact that back then you'd be charged for long distance, right?

So we're inevitably epitomizing and freezing in a time capsule our region, right? So our little Asheville, Buncombe County, Swannanoa area is capsulized forever. And you could definitely theorize that people stay on the phone a lot longer there than they would in New York City. You know what I mean?

They're up in the fucking mountains and they've got these incredible legendary accents and personalities that come from that area. And then they entertain and play with you, maybe in a kind of classic Southern way, like they're gentle and friendly, but they're kind of like, they're enjoying it on a satanic level

just to match you too. Yes, yeah, there is that too. There, the, yeah, it was certainly like, it is a time capsule and it is definitely like, illuminates the personality of where we went to college. And, but I also, I think it like, that psychology still exists. It's just being exploited in different ways.

You know, it's like, it's still, people are like, so willing to just like go along with shit. That's the craziest part. We're just so willing just to go, we go along with it. Whatever it is, it doesn it, whatever it is, whatever it is, like politically, historically, culturally, like you just go along with it, because you have to, and you just do, and that is such a fucking crazy place to live in, live in that place, like I'm just going to go, I guess I just go along with this.

And that, I mean that's what you were testing the boundaries. You're literally testing to see what she will say. As an employee, and she effectively tells you, I mean some of these people, yes, they're funded by an exquisite loneliness, and they stay with you because in a way you're kind of a new friend. But with her, she tells you the ins and outs of how capitalism works.

Throughout the course of that call, she tells you, I mean you heard it in that clip where she talks about the reality of just a working person and what else do you do? And you're like, well you follow orders. You start to kind of create the slippery slope into the Nazi movement. But she kind of diagrams the spiritual background of how you live life as a good person. It's like a fascinating overview of someone who actually has, I would say, Christian morals

in the old, the pure way. She actually kind of meets you halfway and shows you why it works to have integrity. But you know that buyer beware thing though. It's also just like buyer beware, we're fucking Home Shopping Network. You really thought that fucking like mechanical clam perfume bottle was gonna work?

Fuck you, buyer beware bitch. It's Home Shopping Network, fuck you. So even though maybe she did have that kind of Christian ethic, there was also a generalized disdain for the audience. Bitch, it's home shopping network. Fuck you. So even though maybe she did have that kind of Christian ethic There was also a generalized disdain for the audience a sense of like hey you do the fucking research We're gonna sell you garbage. It's home shopping network You know that whole thing just was like as I'm realizing like oh my god like this is I guess how we get fascism Like this is exactly the path of fascism just start off with

fascism light then just like you know what it's I'm a disciple of Satan and like and and you're gonna do oh yeah you don't have to call it evil whatever makes you sleep at night man but it's evil and like just really like in my own head I'm like Jesus Christ it can't be this easy if it's this easy to manipulate people then we are doomed then fascism is the inevitable future of everything there is no way to evade or escape it maybe won't happen for a hundred years but dude it's our it's the path if people are not discerning enough and just accept like garbage truth, we're fucked.

That to me is the other thing that's dark about that call. The Jerky Boys are never gonna give you those layers of development within people opening themselves to a weird, it's kind of an art form for you to pivot without thinking. I mean, that's great. One of the thrills of watching Duncan do this was knowing in his eyes that he had no idea where he was going ever. And then him landing the trick every time and just not.

I mean, everyone that I invited over to the room to watch him do it was just absolutely confused by like how it like if you study the rhythm of his responses and how he hooks them back in it's not something that can be taught or practiced it's just it's it's literally like you're that present you're actually transcending mocking someone you're there with them in this strange way. There's something very unique about these calls But like just the flip just the pivot of you saying You know

There was this great man That said this thing, you know the lower not the higher and for her to just trounce you just throw down on you with it That seems really simplistic like that's yeah yeah, so you're unevolved. Like you're trapped in this developmental stage. And then, but for you to counter with- The essence of wisdom. Do you know what the essence of wisdom is? I mean, that was just as acrobatic, if not more, insane,

to actually be kind of bizarrely right, That was just as acrobatic, if not more, insane, to actually be kind of bizarrely right and lead her into a trap and say simplicity. And she's like, well, you got me there. You know what I mean? That's the kind of thing that I think does age well, where you come back to it again and again, and those lines will stick with you for the rest of your fucking life, you know?

Dude, that also, the weird sound, when we start talking about Satan, there was some weird rustle. Maybe it was the tape player, but it's almost like just this ambient like, ksh, ksh, ksh, as though to emphasize how off the tracks the call was going. Anyway, look, maybe we're like blowing smoke

up our own asses here, but we love these fucking calls. You can find them wherever. Look up Insidious mind control email I thank you for letting me take up so much of your time And thanks for doing the show man. Yeah, I'll talk to you very soon talk to you soon. Bye That was email amos everybody insidious mind control call 1-800-73 1999 1999 order first 50 cars were right now will receive a seven hairball collection made by Matisha Matone the hairball artist of Paris make sure you call right now this offer is

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