Duncan Trussell Family Hour - David Silver and Raghu Markus in "Talking Gurus"

Episode Date: September 10, 2014

David Silver and Raghu Markus from the Mindrolling Podcast join the DTFH to help Duncan understand what the Guru is.

Ghost Towns, Dirty Angel, out now. You can get Dirty Angel anywhere you get your music. Ghost Towns, Dirty Angel, out now. New album and tour date coming this summer. Hello, my dear sweet friends. It is I, Duncan Trussell, and you are listening to the Duncan Trussell Family Hour podcast. Does this sound better? I hope this sounds better.

I've been working nonstop on getting my studio up to bar. I'm trying to get a podcast studio where I can capture the angelic higher frequencies that I can channel the divine consciousness, alien intelligence, and demonic entities in a way no longer disrupted or obstructed by cheap, low-quality crap sound. The more I get into this process, the more I realize that it is a never-ending refinement. It's a kind of alchemical lead into gold process where the more you work on it, the more you realize you need more stuff. So what I've done is I've got foam all over the walls of my podcast studio.

If you've heard me talk about that a lot, it's because I'm proud of the fact that I have foamed the walls. It looks cool, man. I wish you guys could see it. Soon you will see it. Foam looks psychedelic. It feels like I'm in some kind of futuristic, cobalistic foam hive, or perhaps I'm underneath DARPA. It's a beautiful colored foam, too. Purple and gray.

It looks so cool in here. I can't wait to get cameras set up. I've got lamps hanging from the ceiling with candles flickering in them. I've got incense, urns. I have an Oriental carpet, which I took from my mom's office where she used to practice psychology. And that is what the table with all my gear is currently resting on, though I intend to get a brand new table. And I intend to get whatever it takes to fully capture that sweet, deep, awesome sound that podcasts you know and love, like the Mark Marin podcast or the Joe Rogan experience, like they have, that kind of resonant, deep, awesome sound.

I feel like I'm approaching it, but I'm so very far away. I tried recording a podcast today, a craftsman with Brendan Walsh and Johnny Pemberton. And as it turns out, one of the microphones was broken. And I didn't even realize that until I sat down with them today and saw there was a massive difference in sound. The whole point is I'm going to make this podcast room a conduit, a channel. I'm thinking about hanging crystals on the fan. I want it to be a summoning room. I want to summon entities.

As all of you know, all of you artists out there, anyone who's been engaged in any kind of creative activity, mothers, anyone who's experienced life growing inside of them, or anyone who's lost time and come to after having created something for better or for worse, you know that when you enter into the state of creation, you're no longer there. Your ego evaporates and you become a kind of window to some other creative dimension. And that's the place where the ideas come from. That's the place where the art flows. That's the place where the, as Terrence McKenna calls it, the niagras of epiphanous beauty accessible via dimethyltryptamine comes rushing into this dimension. But you don't need dimethyltryptamine.

I think you just need a sanctum, a alchemical laboratory, some place, wherever it is where you can set things up in a certain way to focus your creative energy so that it comes blasting through your ego and no matter how you try to resist that flow, it overcomes you until just for a little while you're gone. And in that place where you're gone, the good stuff can come through for a little while. And then once you realize that it's overcome, you can squeeze your little asshole-like ego shut again and seal the portal and go back to your normal life. But I think this is the idea when you hear about magicians or wizards or people who practice high magic emphasizing the importance of a ceremonial chamber. And you've seen no doubt in videos or in movies the, you know, floor with a pentagram or the strange esoteric chalk drawings of the Anokian names of the angels and the Anokian spirit board that you may have seen behind the drummer of tulle or perhaps you have seen in different bands when they're performing live. They create a very specific setup for their instruments that doesn't seem just based on acoustic logic but apparently is set up according to metaphysical principles.

And I think there's something to be said for that. I think there's something to be said for in your life creating just a little space where you can connect to the rest of the universe instead of being locked down to your tiny little meat body and all the various pains and ailments that are assailing you at any given time. And mostly those pains and ailments, if you think about it, you forget about them so quickly that they're not even important anyway. But we spend so much time locked down, tied up with whatever our particular dramas are that you almost need a complete change in your surroundings to expand or swell outside of the little coiled up narcissistic neurotic little French fry that we all happen to be. That thing with a name and a social security number. That thing that is essentially a window like a dirty dusty muddy little window that looks out into the human dimension. But what is looking out of the window and what is the window, what is the window made of and what is behind the window? What is that?

Here's this world that you're peering out into the big eye, the eye that you can't look at, the thing they call the ottman. Here's this world where there's sunsets and sunrises and moons and cars and stop lights and orgasms and butchers and a Starbucks and Apple updates and brand new video games and jobs and heartbreak and love and birth and death. Here's this world that we're staring out at but doesn't it feel like you're looking out a window and you can't turn around to see where you came from? What's that? You're a window that can't look at itself as they say. And that thing behind you, who knows? Is it like an Alex Gray painting? Maybe it's some kind of beautiful embryonic ever expanding placental warmth that we all swim through and from time to time we stick our sentience out of the windows of whatever human form we've currently incarnated in and gaze into the world.

I'm forgetting that we are just looking out a window just like a child in a nursery or somebody in a beautiful mansion staring out for a little while at one of their incredible views. Maybe your entire life is nothing more than one of the millions and billions and trillions and exponentially infinite views that the universe which you are gazes out on from time to time. That means infinity in the process of ever expanding creation. Maybe that's what's going on. Maybe you have forgotten that you are the eternal witness and your power of attention is so potent that whatever it falls upon springs to life. You're like a window God's looking through but the very attention of God is so powerful it's brought the window to life and that dusty thing is what you think you are. We've gotten confused that's all and all the various dirt and dust and mud or whatever happens to be honest that's what we call our ego and our personality and that's what's called getting stuck. We get stuck on these little particles clumped up on the window that the universal consciousness is gazing through.

And so the next time you find yourself in a state of jealousy procrastination in a state of fear if you're worried over a health issue if you're scared about. A job situation if you feel lonely usually it's an anger response for me but if you're feeling that thing where you're locked down then what's happened is you have narrowed your. Field of pure awareness down to a tiny little fleck on the window of on one of the millions of windows on the. Cathedral or mansion within which dwells the great Holy Spirit that has been written about in so many various scriptures and in so many different ways that tiny little that argument you got in with your girlfriend or the. Lost of a loved one or the. Evaporation of something you dearly cared for. Believe it or not that is one tiny little fleck of dust and compared to what you actually are at least that's what the mystic say and I gotta tell you I felt like a mystic this weekend because I went to. This beautiful beautiful spa and I go to the spa every once in a while especially when I've been on tour and I need to.

Get all the toxins out of my body all the weed and booze and speed I just need to sweat it out all the Adderall and whatever ended up getting into my body I gotta do what I can to just squeeze that shit out and so. I go to these spas now I know a lot of people here I went you went to a spa will look at you you go to a spa oh you got a massage will look at you. That was a I know people who are like that who feel that. You know splurging from time to time so that you can like detox and slow down not be caught up in the. Insane whirlwind of human existence is somehow a sinful activity they think that the way you're supposed to be spending your time is in a constant state of. Coiled up tightened anus like tension and that your entire life should be spent running around whatever particular. Reality tunnel is Robert Anton Wilson calls them running around that reality tunnel like a frightened little hamster jumping on your job wheel and screwing off to. Take care of whatever business you have at home and then jumping on that wheel again and if you take any time not doing that and I'll start calling you a god damn hippie.

A lazy slacker a an indulgent piece of shit and they'll get really mad because you're a lot of people apparently especially in this country feel like you're supposed to be. A worrying oily gear and a meaningless massive machine which we call capitalism and unless you're spinning those gears and just get it just rushing as fast as you can towards that sweet comfortable coffin. Then you are up to no good you're a drug at a lazy turd I obviously don't subscribe to that theory I say do it if you can scrounge up the money figure out a way to do it. I think you can figure out a way to at least get a massage from time to time they're super important. I forget to get them but I really went nuts and I got a watsu massage a watsu massage. Let me tell you what this is if you don't know it's called what it's water shiatsu and basically what it is is you go into this pool and this German lady. Does acupressure and drag while constantly dragging you through this warm water and holy shit. I didn't I you know I remember when I was a kid my mom there was a sort of re birthing craze is and like my mom and all her friends were in this frenzy to go to these re birthing chambers where you listen to the sound of the womb and heart beats and.

I don't know people would bang gongs and you would float there in the warmth and basically you could go back to the pre birth where you are floating in your mother's womb. Which was probably a wonderful time but they went crazy for this for a while because if you could basically experience birth again and the trauma of going from this nice warm. Darkness into the explosive horrifying oxygenated environment that so many babies are blasted into where doctors wearing blue and gas masks basically alien like creatures I think this is what alien abductions are. I think it's people are re reconstructing their birth experience because if the last thing I want to see if I'm sliding out of a vaginal water slide that just opened up to me because that's I think that's what happens if you're if you're a fetus if you're a baby and you're floating in that sweet womb in that warmth. It's basically like being in an aquarium where a trap door opens up and the trap door leads to a water slide that's too tight for your body squeezes your head and the next thing you know. Guys that look like reptilians wearing latex gloves or yanking your up until that point supremely relaxed body out of a bleeding broken vagina. Swatting you maybe cutting off the tip of your penis it's a real mess and then they shove you in the arms of your potentially super doped up mommy and by then you're screaming at the top of your lungs because your entire universe is shattered. It's exactly like being abducted by an alien and so I can understand wanting to go back into that space.

I think that's what what's who does you just sort of get pulled around this pool by this German lady. I don't know I keep saying German lady but she was a German lady she had a German accent she was this fit thick you got to be if you want to yank my flabby body through mineral water you're going to have to be fit and she was. She pulls you around so there's this constant feeling of movement and then you start experiencing the kind of. Disassociate of losing your body that you experience when you are in a flotation tank and then I don't know but something happened in the midst of all that where it felt like I popped out of the little eye for a second. And really was just some kind of I felt like an Alex Gray painting and I wasn't on anything at all I really felt like I was in some kind of bardo or something and that's when I realized that. Human beings are windows that's not it I'm sure I've read that somewhere but human beings are windows that God gazes through that every human incarnation is one of the windows in the great mansion. That the universal consciousness lives inside of in the experience of being alive is the experience of God gazing through the window of yourself into whatever particular reality tunnel you happen to be existing in. Did I just read cosmic trigger by Robert Anton Wilson yes and much thanks to the sweet fellow who brought that to me when I was on the road.

Also I think that I'm allowed to do these kinds of intros with podcasts that Ragu Marcus and David Silver and because they're two of the most profoundly spiritual. Beautiful people that I know and they're both teachers of mine who thank God I ran into and you have done so much to help me grow at least a little bit. They've at least sort of dusted off some of the sludge that was encapsulated on my dark heart and for that I'll be eternally grateful and I think the reason they're able to do that is because they came into contact with a being that. Managed somehow to completely clean his window off and that happens from time to time where either I don't know how you do it but from time to time certain humans have very clean identity less ego free. Windows and name Carolee Baba also known as Maharajie was one of these beings and if you had a if you were lucky then you got to hang out with that guy for a little bit while he was embodied and was a window you got to actually be around someone like that and everyone I've met who's come in contact with that person. They all have been touched and you can almost see his fingerprint in everything they do so you can kind of get to know him in a way just by being around people who were around him and that that's a real thing and it doesn't just have to be some kind of mystical. Woohoo stuff either it's if you get around a child for example. If you don't need to be around the child's parents to know what their parents are like.

If you get around a dog you don't need to be around the dog's owner to know what the dog's owner is like and in the same way. If you get around people who've come in contact with an awakened being and yes I do believe those beings exist on planet Earth and yes I do believe that from time to time if you're lucky you get to meet them. If you've been around a being like that long enough and the being leaves a thumbprint on you a kind of fingerprint and and then you go out into the world and and people who meet you. They get a little bit of the thumbprint to and I think maybe over time that thumbprint runs down I don't know maybe over time the thumbprint ends up just doing the exact same thing report DNA does which is that. Every time it prints out new cells as we get older and older and older every time the great spool of meat the meat printer that is our DNA. Spits out a new version of you you get a little bit lighter and a little bit more run down and that's called getting old it's just the same thing as when the ink runs out of a printer so. Maybe that happens to and that's why sometimes when you come in contact with people who claim to be from this religion or that religion or followers of this guru or that guru. It feels like you're listening to a radio signal that is very dim but what's really cool about meeting people who've been around Maharaji is the radio signal is so clear and so loud that it actually helps you in some way.

I'm not ashamed to admit it. I've got pictures of that guy all over my house and I go to these Ram Dass retreats and I guess you could even call it my religion. Though I don't like the term religion that much and I think it's a confusing word but. I think I'm allowed to do kind of spiritual rambly rants like this whenever these guys are on because they really did get to come into contact with something. Massively profound and that's why I love talking to them and that's why I love. Sending out their frequency to you guys because I think a lot of you really love the Ram Dass camp and all the all the cool stuff that those guys have to say. What do they always say they say some version of this beautiful roomy poem they say do not feel lonely the entire universe is inside you. Stop acting so small you are the universe and ecstatic motion set your life on fire seek those who fan your flames.

So I'm excited about this podcast and again thank you to all of you who came out to see me performing on the Southern Glory tour with Johnny Pemberton and thank you to all of you who gave me awesome stuff. I have not gotten around to reading some of this the comic books and books that you gave me. I have a CD that I need to listen to that was recorded by a person who listened to this podcast who's no longer in this dimension. I've got it in my computer I just I just uploaded it so know that I'm going to listen to that if you're the fellow who gave me that CD and I love you guys and as always I'm eternally grateful. That you have given me the ability to have a job like this because I can't think of anything more amazing and beautiful. I could think of some things that would be more amazing and beautiful but the technology for those things doesn't exist in this dimension. For example I'd like to travel to Sirius and and check out whatever star it is that Robert Anton Wilson thinks the Illuminati came from. That would be pretty cool but since that's probably not on the horizon for me or any of us existing today I'll take having the Duncan Trussell Family Hour podcast and getting to come into contact with you guys

and getting to introduce folks like Raghu Marcus and David Silver to you. Hare Krishna some very quick business I am doing a podcast tour. This is coming up at the end of the month so it's right around the corner. It starts at the very end of the month I'm going to pull up the dates right now. I am going to be in San Francisco on the 30th Portland on the 1st Seattle on the 2nd Vancouver on the 4th and Calgary on the 5th but in Calgary I'm doing stand up. It's not a live podcast but in San Francisco I'll be joined by Chris Ryan in Portland. I will be joined by Chris Ryan in Seattle. I'm still waiting for confirmation from my guest in Vancouver.

I will be joined by Danielli Bollelli and in Calgary I don't know who the opener is going to be there yet but it's a stand up show anyway. So Chris Ryan Danielli Bollelli there's going to be other guests as well. I'm still locking everybody down. These tickets are moving really really fast so if you want to come and see a live podcast don't sleep. Get the tickets right away. Every show on the Southern Glory Tour sold out. Praise Allah. Thank you God.

And it looks like this is going to happen with this tour too. So get the tickets now. Don't wait. The Duncan Trussell Family Hour podcast as always is brought to you by the beautiful Darling Sweeties over at Amazon.com. If you go through our portal located at DuncanTrussell.com the next time you want to buy something awesome at Amazon and oh how many lovely things there are waiting for you over there at Amazon.com. For example this new video game that's about to destroy my life that I just bought. Destiny. It's sitting on my table right now like some kind of dark warlock claw like a cursed bloody head thrown through my window by a goblin.

A beating devil's heart that's about to corrupt and destroy my life and send me into a downward spiral of entropy and fast food consumption until I melt into my floor in a lazy little puddle of pitiful mediocrity. It's right there and it's waiting for you to order it at Amazon.com. Just go through our portal. It's in the comments section of any podcast. Bookmark the portal and anytime you go to buy something at Amazon they'll give us a tiny little percentage of whatever you buy it costs you nothing. But it's a great way for you to support this podcast. We're also brought to you by audible.com. You can go to audible trial Ford slash family hour if you sign up for a trial membership they'll give you a free audio book.

And I would recommend any audio book by Michael Beckwith who is the teacher over at the Agape spiritual center in Los Angeles I used to go there. I'm going to go back one day but man I've never run into anybody who's so good at articulating some really weighty crazy big metaphysical ideas in a very understandable and actionable way. If you need a boost if you feel trapped or stuck or lost or bored or you feel like you've lost your happiness or the thing that it makes life feel like a water slide park where you're on several hundred milligrams of high powered MDMA then Michael Beckwith is the man for you. Check him out. He's like an audio watsu massage. I guess that's it everybody. Now please welcome to the Dunkin Trussell family hour podcast.

The hosts of the mind rolling podcast. You can find them by going to mind rolling podcast.com. I'm checking that right now to make sure that link is right. Mind rolling podcast. Yep. Mind rolling podcast.com. Go check these guys out man. You know we focus on a bunch of different things on this podcast.

Sometimes it's comedy. Sometimes it's metaphysics. Sometimes it's Satanism. Sometimes it's the occult. Sometimes it's probably just boring but these guys they go deep into spiritual topics every single time. And some of their guests are just amazing. They get Roshi. I've had Roshi Joan Halifax on once and that's only because of Ragu Marcus.

But they're actually friends with these people. They have Marabi Star. They have Krishna Das. The legendary Kirtan Walla. They've got all kinds of amazing guests. I'm just flipping through to see what else they've got. Just check them out. Why do I have to tell you?

Who cares? It's boring for me to yap about this stuff anyway. They've also got a beautiful podcast. I've got a beautiful website. I need to update my website. But anyway, go to mindrollingpodcast.com. Check out their podcast. I'll have all the links to all their social media stuff at DuncanTrussell.com.

Check them out there. And now please everybody welcome to the DuncanTrussell family hour the return of the mind rollers themselves. David Silver and Ragu Marcus. Welcome back to the DuncanTrussell family hour podcast. It's the DuncanTrussell family hour podcast. Ragu and David. Welcome back to the DuncanTrussell family hour podcast. Hi.

How's it going? Hi. Hi. Great. It's great to be on the show. It is, really. Glad to be back. Were you both in New Mexico?

No. Just I. Yeah. Ragu. I was in New York, which is an older, no actually it's a much younger place to be, right? No. The oldest continuously settled town in America is Taos, New Mexico. Oh, wow.

I didn't know that. Yeah. Yeah. And why were you there, Ragu? Why was I there? Well, there is a honeymoon monkey temple there. And I like honeymoon. So I decided that I was going to go there because we were celebrating what the Hindus celebrate

every full moon in July, which is honoring the universal guru. So off we went and did a bunch of chanting and hanging out and partying and it was divine. Absolutely divine. How do you celebrate that? What are the ceremonies involved? We're Americans, so we don't know from any ceremonies. We don't do any ceremonies. The only thing we know how to do is what did we do?

Chant. We don't know how to do anything else but chant. Now, we do know a couple of, we do know the guru. It's called the guru prayer, which basically besieges the guru to speed us along our trail so that we're able to be of some usage to our fellow humans. That's basically what the guru does. Can I hear a sample of the prayer? Really?

Yeah. Well, here's one. There's a few of them, but I'll give you one. Guru Brahma, Guru Vishnu, Guru Devo, Maheshwara, Guru Sakshat, Param Brahma, Tasmay Sri, Guruvee, Namaha. Oh, yeah. I've heard that. You've been to India, so it is done everywhere, every night, every household, every temple for Hindus. But isn't it usually, I've heard it on a Hari Krishna album that...

Yeah, George Harrison, right? He did that great, you know, that... David, what's the song? My Sweet Lord. Yeah, My Sweet Lord, yeah. David, do you know this prayer? I do, and I love it, because for some reason, it just calms me down, which is a very rare event. Will you guys say it together one more time, please?

I can't do it off hand. I can. Let's hear it, Raghu. Oh, my God. Guru Brahma, Guru Vishnu, Guru Devo, Maheshwara, Guru Sakshat, Param Brahma, Tasmay Sri, Guruvee, Namaha. And basically, it just says the Guru is everything. It's every aspect, you know, Guru Brahma, the Creator, Guru Vishnu, the Preserver. So it's really identifying the Guru with every aspect of the universe, every face of every part of what is divine.

And it's saying basically that, you know, the Guru is one with it all. So you ask the Guru to give you the grace of becoming one with the Guru, therefore then becoming one with the universe. So, you know, the most famous thing, and you know, that's all just Hindu stuff, you know what I mean? It doesn't really, it doesn't apply to us because we're Westerners. But where it does apply is in what a great saint, Ramana Maharishi said from the last century, God, Guru and Self are one. So once you get that, then you start to get the reason why we do anything to try and find out who we truly are. Is there, is it can, there's so many Gurus living today, Gurus that have appeared on this planet. Are they all considered to be ultimately just one person?

That's a very good question. I mean, it's your question is like an up level question. Yeah, they are ultimately that is absolutely correct. But it's correct for every one of us. We are all already that, right? But isn't it that our identities are sort of, we're more attached to our identities are we have become more involved in polishing our identities or refining our ego structures. Whereas the Guru has somehow subverted that instinct or has freed themselves from connecting with that appendix like useless or unfortunate thing that we're all stuck to. So, for example, Neem Kali Baba, Ramana Maharishi, how do you say Maharishi?

No, Maharishi Maharishi Maharishi. Yeah, these Gurus are, were they more connected to this oneness in the sense that they, they felt each other. They were the same thing. They were, you know, less fingers and more the hands, so to speak. Did they know, did they feel this? When you talk to Neem Kali Baba, are you talking to Christ? Are you talking to all the Gurus that have ever lived, the ones we know of and the ones we don't? Well, I think I have a feeling about that.

Yeah, you know, everybody's got their own, you know, it's, it's like a channel, really. I mean, you attract, they attract you. That's at least what people believe. And I do believe that. So, some Gurus are not attractive to some people. Not because they're any less, but because, karmically, you were in their family for thousands of generations. So, for instance, one of the Gurus, Shirdi Sai Baba, who's my Guru, I guess, partially, there's a story about him being in his Mandir in Shirdi, which was really a ruined temple that he lived in.

And he would, you know, show love and grace to everyone, but occasionally someone would come and he wouldn't let men, or he'd actually jow them and say, you know, go away. I don't want to see you. And one of his devotees asked him one time, how could you refuse someone? You're a Guru. You are the epitome of the universe. You are the symbol of love and the actual actualization of love. How dare, how could you refuse someone?

And he said something that I thought was very fascinating. He said, well, I only administer to those who've been in my family for thousands and thousands of generations. I know who they are. And sometimes I will refuse someone because I don't recognize them. Which sounds counterintuitive. But when you think about it, everybody's got a different path. We're all at different stages of our long reincarnational journey. So it makes sense that some people would be sort of custom fitted for one.

I mean, there are certain Gurus, and I'm not going to mention them because I don't want to offend anyone out there, who I don't have any connection with at all. It doesn't diminish them, but it diminishes their impact upon my life. There has to be a reason for this. You know what? I want to do what's called a disclaimer right now. Okay. And David, you and I were talking earlier, just really a few hours earlier,

about the fact that we absolutely know nothing about anything. And that the fact that we should say anything to anybody, that we potentially think would put them in some kind of state of understanding, is so foolish. You know, it's absolutely foolish. So with that disclaimer, that now I'm going to say what my puny little mind has fathomed about this. And one thing is you're being very general Gurus, right? Yes.

Okay. There's, you know, there's, you know, there's the local soccer Guru, right? Right. He's part of it too, right? In terms of your definition. Yes. So that word means absolutely nothing in India, in anywhere. Absolutely zero.

That is strictly a Madison Avenue term at this point. Okay. What means something is what, and what I think you're saying is somebody who is absolutely not caught in any kind of duality whatsoever, they are beyond, able to live on this earth beyond any kind of relationship with the dual nature of, you know, that's created by ego, mind, right? It's always us and them, subject to object, all that shit that we deal with day to day. Okay. So there are people who are not at all subject to that. I haven't got there.

I haven't the slightest idea. Okay. I don't know any, you know, have no idea. But I met one more than one. Actually, I've met a three that I know of that I actually met. And they all had this, you know, the same thing going on that you could experience that I could never explain what it is. But in terms of thinking about it with your mind, these people are what's called an India Sidist, which means accomplished being. So they are, there's not a lot of them.

There was in the last century. Now, you know, I mean, I don't know of anyone, but that doesn't mean anything because some of these people just stay up in the, you know, deep in the glaciers, part of the Himalayas and caves. And, you know, that really happens. It absolutely does happen, but they don't, you know, they're not interacting with us peeps, you know, because they're not supposed to or whatever. So what do you mean they're not supposed to? Because like David said about Shirdi Sai Baba, who was one of those Sidists, you know, in the last and he died in the early part of last century. Absolutely. That there is, you know, if you want to project something that's really dumb and stupid that I should say, I mean, I'll say it.

Maybe they all have a certain constituency of, of, of souls that they're guiding over, you know, millennium. They all have a role in, in, you know, they get a section, you know, maybe they get each person gets each being gets a section that they take care of. Now, I do know, I mean, there's this story of Shirdi. Is this interesting to anybody listening now? It's interesting. It's incredibly interesting. You're talking about this. It's, it's fascinating.

You're talking about this kind of university comprised of amnesiac pupils who over the course of infinite lifetimes encounter specific teachers who are there. Who are there to lure them out of their amnesiac state. And the, and the mind, even though ultimately this kind of stuff is probably the same as playing marbles or something. The mind likes to consider the organizational, what would be what's the underlying organizational function in the universe that creates this specific state of infinity expressing itself, which is the human dimension. So I think it's incredibly interesting to, to, to every, it's very interesting. All right. So, so then in relation to David's, by the way, Dave, I never heard that story.

That's a fantastic story. Actually, it, because it, it falls right in line with one thing that I know. I know name Karoli Baba said Maharajee said, which was, there was a guy, a man who actually was one of our mentors back in the day when we were there. And he used to be one of the Samadhi examples. I mean, Maharajee had a few people that in front of us, he just look at them or pop them on the head and they go into a deep trance like state, which is called Samadhi. Where they had no body consciousness. They were not conscious at all. In fact, we took, he, in one case, this particular man who I'm talking about, he did it.

The guy fell over like a tree. He was, Maharajee told catch him. And then it took four or five strong young guys, we were in our early twenties to carry him into a room. He was like dead weight. And, and he was in that room and then we heard a bunch of smacking and laughing. Maharajee runs out of the room and this guy comes behind him like, you know, he's waking up from a stupor of some sort. And, and, and we've asked him where he said, I could never describe to you where I go. It's just not described, describable.

Anyhow, Maharajee said about this guy. He's when they asked about why this could happen. You know, how does this guy go into these states and, you know, what is going on? And he said, I have, we have known each other for millennia, a lot in thousands of lifetimes. So that would kind of lend credence to David's story that indeed that, you know, Shirdi Sai Baba, by the way, Shirdi Sai Baba is different from Sai Baba. Sai Baba who just died within the last year or two is not Shirdi Sai Baba. I mean, and that's again, that's my, you know, bring in the disclaimer again, you know, that I should be saying like I really fucking know anything right about that. Except I, I actually had Darshan of Sai Baba, not Shirdi.

He was like, you know, he had gone. And so I didn't feel anything like David says, maybe that, you know, you just don't, you know, feel anything, but, you know, I think you don't have to do the disclaimers because No, no, because as little as you may know, you are one of the very, you and David are one of the very few people that I have met who have come in contact with these beings. In fact, and I know maybe, you know, I know a bunch of them now that I've gone to these retreats, but yeah, so. You know a bunch of what? People who've come in contact. Yeah, right. And, and also, you know, I think that your, your, if you look at the states of awakening or whatever you want to call it.

And you have the most asleep being whoever squeezed the trigger on the missile that took down that Malaysian flight. And then you have sort of radiating out from that state of complete lack of empathy and sort of a reptilian indifference to human existence. You, there's like a onion layer after layer after layer of these onions where you're not someone so awful that you'd shoot a plane down, but you're somebody who will at a moment's notice give somebody the finger and traffic. You're that upset about the minutia of everyday life that when you're driving down the street, you're boiling with rage. That's a pretty sleepy state to be in one that I was in two days ago. But then you, but then you sort of radiate outward from there. And then you start getting into a philosophical mindset or even a scientific mindset where you look out at the world and you're not cut up in the minutia of traffic or whatever society you're born into or whatever your particular economic situation is. And you begin to see the same thing as a kind of like amazing flow of energy that's happening on this planet.

And that somewhere after that, when you start going out from those layers, that's where you have a David and a Ragu, and that's where you're seeing something even more. And you're not really sure what it is necessarily, but that's when you run into the guru or the person who's not even in the onion anymore. And this person is in some kind of super awakened, not even awakened state. Just somehow is part of this way that the universe is evolving or expressing itself or perfecting itself or purifying itself. That's constant growth from the core of complete deep sleep while awake to this completely awakened state. I think since you've come in contact with these beings, and because you have actually witnessed some of the things that they can do and what they teach, you are very, very equipped to talk about this, especially for people like me. Well, by the way, awakened state, I think is a great term. I like that.

I mean, we use that and that's a great term about if you want to try and put into words what these beings, what's represented by these beings, you know, it is that. I think, Duncan, I think you don't you can't predict how it's going to happen really. I mean, not to be banal about it, which really means being totally banal. Really, I've had, we've had comments and stuff on our website from Duncan Tressel followers and many of them actually. And, you know, many of those comments have been very annoying to me. Hold on, David. I'm sorry. You're fading out there for a second.

Some of those comments from your people who listened to your podcast have been very enlightening and very, you know, wise. And people might make judgments about these kind of things. Well, you know, people listen to Duncan, maybe, you know, are not the same as people listen to Jack cornfield. But in my experience in life, which is getting kind of long now, I'm always surprised by where it comes from and where it doesn't come from. Like one time I was on East 4th Street or 3rd Street in the East Village in New York many years ago. And the Volkswagen van, you know, one of those typical hippie vans pulled up beside me and out of it came three Hare Krishna people with Bhakti Vedanta Prabhupada, their guru. And he just walked right in front of me. Wow.

I knew who he was. I'd seen him on some, you know, in some magazine or whatever. And I, I, he stopped right in front of me. So I kind of pronounced to him. I had great respect for him and and simply said, wow, I'm really amazed to just come across to you like this. And he smiled and he touched my head and then he moved on. Now, I have deep respect for him and for the Hare Krishna movement because they've done a lot to enlighten people. But I never went back to that.

You know, I was never, oh, my goodness, my epiphany. Oh, wow. I'm going to go and become a Hare Krishna and do the head, the head, the, you know, the shade head thing and the saffron robes and all that. I didn't do it. And that was, you know, a decades ago. Doesn't mean I didn't feel great about it and wasn't sort of bothered by just jumping into him, but it didn't, it didn't fit for me for whatever reason. Whereas, you know, someone else did. So you never know where this is coming from.

I mean, I get stuff from people all the time, you know. Now, Ragu said to me on time, something that I think you might find interesting Duncan, which is that we were talking about different, not let's stop using the word Guru, teachers, masters, ascended masters, whatever. The word Guru has really been, you know, lessened. But, you know, I asked Ragu, what was the differential, if you like? What was the thing that made a true master from eternity, if you like? And you said to me, Ragu, with something that's stuck with me for many years, which is a master of time and space. It sounds like a Marvel comic, doesn't it? But you were being very serious that these men and women, or at least men and women in their incarnation as they appear to us,

are capable of leaving this realm and traveling in other bodies sometimes, in other places, at other times, of having simultaneous existences with different people at the same time. All these remarkable, miraculous things, these cities. And maybe that's one thing that we observe, which is that we can learn from teachers, we can learn from students, we can learn from just about anything. We can even learn from John Oliver on HBO or John Stewart, if you like. Yes. And I do, I love John Oliver, by the way. But when it comes to this other thing, when you're privileged on some level to meet one of these incredible beings, the effect upon you is very powerful and lasts for the lifetime. You know, you can't get away from it.

It doesn't mean that it's a hierarchy. It just means that, you know, there are different sort of manifestations. Well, it's, if you were in a dream, have you ever been in a dream and realized you were in a dream having a conversation with someone in the dream? Yes. And it's one of, like, I've had that happen, and then I've had the thought in my mind in the dream where I'm talking to this other person and I think, wait, who am I talking to? This is a dream. You're me. I'm talking to myself right now. And that's a really incredible moment when you realize that this entire universe that you're existing in, the dream universe, is a dream, especially when it's a bad dream. And you get that, I don't know if you've ever had that happen where you're having, like, some awful experience in a dream getting eaten by an alligator, finding out that, I don't know, you owe 50 million dollars.

50 million dollars for gambling debts. I don't know if you ever had that happen in a dream, but then suddenly you get this moment where you're like, oh, this is a dream. And the whole thing goes from being a nightmare to being amazing. And so in the same way, this idea of oneness, are we all spring from this one being and the guru being, as you're saying, a master of time and space with all these cities that some people listen with great skepticism. When they hear stuff like that, they can't imagine that things function differently than what they've experienced up until this point and what they've been shown in the textbooks and on the TV. But in a dream, if I came to someone and said, oh, I was having this incredible dream where a person came to me and began explaining to me that I was in a dream. And then as part of this explanation, walked through a wall or levitated something or read my mind or did some incredible act, the person would be like, yeah, that's pretty cool dream, but it wouldn't seem insane to them. But this dimension that we're in right now, we're so convinced it's real.

That's one of the qualities of it. And it seems like these gurus are just parts of ourself, parts of the universal mind that have somehow managed to recognize that they're in a dream. And fully recognize that they're in a dream. And then they're going around at the other little different parts of themselves that are still believing that they're in a dream and telling them, oh, no, this is, you're going to wake up. This is it. You're about to wake up. And the guru, for whatever reasons, decides to stay in the dream. They don't wake up.

They don't go out. They stay here for some reason, which is a curiosity to me. Well, that's a curiosity altogether, since I haven't any idea of what you're talking about. But really? Yeah, really. Well, I mean, this whole existence that we're in right now is been compared again and again and again to a dream, a dream state, a dream state. And you've said to me, we're all part of one thing, like pixels and some grand unified consciousness. And some of these pixels and this net of existence or consciousness are more awake than other pixels.

Some of these, some people are more awake. They're waking up from a dream. And that's what I've always thought of the guru possibly as being somebody who is you is you. Isn't that what you were just saying with that prayer? The guru is you is everything. No, the guru is every aspect of the divine. That does not saying the guru is you. It's the guru is every aspect.

Guru Brahma, Guru Vishnu, Guru Deva, Maheshwara, that's Shiva. Guru Sakshat Truth, Param Brahma, beyond creation, beyond the two. Tasmay Sri Guruvenima, I bow to that guru who represents that. This whole, this whole non dual thing of a you are the guru. That's not what Ramana Maharshi was saying. I mean, it's very, it's so that's why I give you this disclaimer constantly because it's impossible from our puny points of view to actually have a words that can describe what you're trying to describe. And there seems to be manifestation of very few people over time constantly who act in a way that allows awakening to happen. They act out of the you out of from the one completely from the one.

So by the way, Dave, I never heard that. I never heard what you said about my description of the guru because if you had asked me right now, I wouldn't have said that at all. I would have said what I actually, because Neem Karoli Baba said the true guru, in other words, complete the Siddha, that who is beyond two. The true guru is what they call in Sanskrit or Hindi, knower of all hearts. Okay. And they can absolutely completely awaken you.

And that knower of all hearts, meaning they know every incarnation you've ever had, everyone you're going to have everything. There's nothing unknown. They are completely one with that because they are beyond duality. Okay. But that's where it gets confusing to me is we have these beings that are beyond duality. And that would mean that since they're beyond duality, they're all part of this one thing, which we are, which means that they are us. That's, but that's intellectual. We are on the, you know, ultimately who we really are.

We are, but we are not. We are unfortunately unawakened to that. And while we are unawakened to that, we are not that. So we're the parts of the guru that haven't woken up yet. We're the parts of the one that haven't woken up yet. And the guru is just like Christ is the perfect example, right? He's the intercession. Hanuman, perfect example, the intercession between unawakadness and awakenness.

When you wake up, do you become the guru? Yeah, you don't become the guru. That's the, it's just not the right term. You become the one, you become back to that, which is part of, and what is the one? I mean, the, you know, that's a whole other thing. What are we talking about? It seems to me in my experience, again, with the disclaimer, love is what we're talking about. And that's really what this fabric is.

The one, the fabric of the one is that and just think of it yourself in the smallest circumstances. When you actually extend yourself lovingly out to another human, you are no longer in duality. You are one with that human. Yes, that's right. Okay, so it's as simple as that. Now, I have one other thing I just have to say because Dave brought up the Hare Krishna's. When was that Dave? Decades ago, you say? The Hare Krishna?

1968. Okay. So around that same time, I was a kid. The first thing I heard about in terms of spiritual path was these Hare Krishna people, right? So I decided, my friends, they have great food. We can have a Sunday brunch like you've never had. And I was like, great, let's go over there. So we went over there and you do have to do a bunch of, you know, chanting Hare Krishna, Hare Ram.

And then we had this spread. I tell you, I was at that place every Sunday at the Hare Krishna Center. I mean, it was fantastic. And as time went on and I went to India and so on, you know, we'd see them. Remember, they were in the airports. They were everywhere. They were in the airports. They were in India and we met them because we were also at another ashram nearby theirs.

And, you know, and all these Westerners came over and it was, and then they came back and established themselves in the States in Virginia with this huge gold temple. And they were a laughing stock of any kind of path, period. Okay. Not, I mean, George Harrison seems to have made, you know, made something, made lemonade out of lemons. But this was a cultish, really dogmatic and narrow minded. Again, this is me talking and I'm sure I'll get mail about it. Actually, you'll hear the end of the story and maybe you won't feel so bad about me saying this shit.

I was completely, had no respect all the way till recently because what started to happen was, because I'm into chanting and these kids that have grown up through the Hare Christmas, you know, and they washed away some of the bad shit that was going on in Virginia and, you know, a lot of the rap, you know, the really bad stuff, which I won't get into. Oh, I know about it, man. Yeah, I know. I can tell you some stuff about that. Yeah, right.

So we don't want to do that. And but the fact is these kids grew up out of that, but they carry a different vibration. And I started to hear it when I started people are turning me on to, oh, you got to listen to this. They used to be in the Hare Krishna or they are in the Hare Krishna, but they're really cool. And this this new Swami came around who actually befriended Krishna Das, who was the eminent Chiang Kai in the world, from in the West rather in the world. And he actually was a very progressive guy about this. And so we started to feel, wow, maybe there's an opening.

Anyhow, long and short of it is a friend of mine took me to a Hare Krishna Convocation about two months ago in nearby where I lived in North Carolina. Yes. And it's this incredible retreat center, 900 hotel rooms, 2,000 people in a hall of food, huge cafeteria. I mean, it was just right in the Blue Ridge Mountains. Fantastic. And I went there just because my friends, listen, you like Kirtan chanting, you're going to love this.

And I said, OK, so I went there. And true to his word, there was these incredible chanting. And one guy in particular was some of the greatest thing I ever heard on that path. And then I started talking to these Swamis and one of them was out there giving a little talk to some people on the hillside. It was like this classic thing from the 60s. And all he talked about was, you know, he said the real thing about spiritual knowing that, I mean, you're doing the spiritual work, but the real thing about being spiritual, quote, unquote, is being kind to others. That's what he said.

And I was like, oh, shit, this guy could be the Dalai Lama. I mean, he was, you know, he was an older Swami. He was German, actually. Anyhow, through that, it was really a day and a half. I absolutely, I was ready to get my hair completely shaved off and with a little duck thing on the back. Get those saffron rose. And because, you know what, they're right. I found out they're absolutely right.

Well, that's a very powerful mantra. The mantra, well, it's known as it's called Maha Mantra, the big mantra, the great mantra. And they just said, look, you just got to do that because we don't know shit upon shit about anything. And there's no use trying to, you know, figure it out. So just do the mantra, which in the times of the Kali Yuga, which we're in, which is the age of destruction, which seems to be happening on a day-to-day basis, you know, this is, you know, your way through. So I've become a Hari Krishna. Congratulations.

Hari Bo. You know, my first religious experience or awakening experience happened at Ahari Krishna temple. And it permanently changed my life. And I was surrounded by, you know, the devotees. And of course, some of them are fanatics. And still, because it is a dogma. I'm still dogmatic. I mean, I think there's open-minded people in it, just like any other religion.

But if you want to go deep, deep, deep into a thing, you could definitely do it through ISKCON. And they won't, there's nothing there that will stop you. That is a water slide is deep into this stuff as you want to go. And that can be quite dangerous because so much of their system is based on the guru. One of the problems was that they were sort of licensing gurus. You know, they call them spiritual masters. And so much of Prabhupada's teachings revolved around devotion to the spiritual master. And this natural thing that happened with Ram Das and you and David,

where you come in contact with this being who you've, you know, known potentially for an infinite amount of time, it gets transformed into a kind of systematic being assigned to a person. And that's where things, they ran into some trouble. But at the core of ISKCON and at the core of Bhakti Yoga, Vaishnava Bhakti Yoga is this chant. And when you chant regularly, you will change, your life will begin to change. You will begin to change. And I don't know why Krishna Das talks about it.

I'm sure you know about it. I've got, I've, when I've been very active and focused and disciplined, I've gotten scared by the shifts that began to happen in my life and just the natural falling away of things that I was, that weren't so healthy to the point where I thought, I just don't want to go any further into this. It's too intense. I'm not ready. It's too much.

You start having incredible dreams. You start coming into contact with other people. I mean, not to sound, look, I'm not afraid of talking about this stuff. I know some people feel like when they talk about the mystical, supernatural aspect of these practices, they get, they're afraid of getting written off. But I don't care if I get written off because I've experienced definite contact with some higher consciousness through chanting Hare Krishna. And it is weird.

Maybe I'm weird. And that's just what happens when a weird person comes in contact with that stuff. That's exactly the case, unfortunately. Yeah, but I mean, the definition of the word weird is based upon conventional thought. You know, I mean, conventional thinking sometimes works, you know, help us navigate this, this planet that we're on. But the word weird and the word strange and the weird, all those things are usually judgments made by people who have not emerged from conventional thinking.

Well, that's me. And I can remember. Well, it's all of us to some extent. I mean, you know, I don't think that I've emerged out of it. I mean, I like to think that when I go for the train into Manhattan, it's going to come on time. And that's conventional thinking. What the hell difference does it make if I'm late or if I don't get there? I can still stand there on the station and go into a higher space, but I can.

The conventional thinking says to me, I want to go on time. I'm sorry, David. Can you hold on to. I'm sorry, you're fading out. Let's let the basically just I am much fading out in terms. No, you're, you're, you're David, your connection, your band, something went down. So you started to to flange out. Try again.

Just simply put conventional thinking is the thing, the construct that makes us think that you know, immersion into some really deep and powerful potent thing, anything from a hard Christian to an ayahuasca experience is weird. And I still do that like that, you know, and, and, you know, someone recently accosted me at an event and said that had I done a particular substance and I said, no, and she, she sort of looked at me as if I was a weird person rather than the other way around, you know, you can take it any which way you want. You can get immersed in, in Hare Krishna and extend which appears to other people to be

completely fanatical and crazy and is coming from that place of conventional thought. What I learned in the 60s and 70s, and I've retained at least some of it is that, you know, if it hadn't been for ingestion of surgic acid, repeatedly between the years 1967 and 1972, I wouldn't have had a clue about any of this. I would have just bypassed it and probably made a lot more money and been a lot more successful actually. But it wasn't to be because I got immersed in it via this, this sacrament, which it is if used correctly.

And forever after to now, you know, have been, you know, felt very privileged to have entered this world which is inclusive of things that I didn't and still don't understand. But nevertheless, I know that just to sort of rely upon this, this life, this one life and all the traumas and neuroses and weird ambitions and desire systems that grip as 95% of the time is to me now a mistake to let that be your life. Nothing you can judge other people for doing that. That's just where they're at. I mean, people judge me for not having gotten into the Harry Christian movement, having met

that guru or that master, actually having touched him, having had him look at me and talk to me on the street. I still didn't go there because it wasn't for me. It's not, it's not my groove. Wait a minute. That was Prabhupada? Yeah, he met Prabhupada. You met Prabhupada?

I didn't get that part. Oh, I thought he was. Yeah, I met him on the street. He got out of a club talking bus. For those of you guys out there who don't know the history of the Harry Christians, quick summary, his, as he is called, his divine grace, AC Bhaktivedana Swami Prabhupada came to the United States, landed in New York with a, you know, I don't remember how much, but like 10 bucks in his pocket, met a family, he got to stay with his family and he started

chanting in Central Park, chanting, Harry Krishna. And then this drew people too and people would come and sit around him and sing with him. And then he started his own spiritual center with devotees and sort of as people gathered around him, he began ratcheting up the intensity of the practice with these people. And the practices, at least the form that he is espousing to the world is one that is very much based on this devotion to the guru. And that's why they got in so much trouble because people were worshiping this guy. They were openly, publicly worshiping him.

And that's what you do with gurus. What do you mean? This was no different. The difference is he wasn't awakened, period. I don't care what Harry Krishna people say. Oh, you're going to get punched by a Harry Krishna, Ragu Marcus. No, but you're talking about worshiping. All gurus get worshiped.

That's part of the deal. Okay. And that's my opinion about him. And the reality is people, you know, in terms of knowing, there's a certain kind of knowing that you can have deep inside yourself. And that's your personal relationship with whoever. I mean, again, I don't even like using the term guru because it's so overused. But awakened being and, you know, you know, hopefully he is completely awakened.

And if he's not, and if he's more a, he's still on the path, right? He's not completely awakened. If you're not completely awakened, then stuff happens, you know, and. And when you start saying you should worship me, you know, that's, that's where I think that. Did he say that? I know I'm, I don't, I'm going to misquote this. He didn't say it to me. He didn't, he didn't have time.

He said, hello, how are you? But there you go. So he didn't ask me to worship it, but I get it, Doug. Can I know what you're saying? No, I, you know, it wasn't, he said that this spiritual center, there's a book that I read some time a long time ago about what happened, the process of the heart Christians of ISKCON starting. And at one point these people have been hanging out with this man. And I don't know when you met him, but, and at what point this was happening.

This seems later on into the formation of ISKCON. He, you know, is kind of just this group, eclectic group of people. And then at one point he apparently just told them, you worship me like God. The guru is God. You worship me like that. He said it. He didn't like tiptoe around it either. He's just like, here's how we play this game.

And so that's, you know, what you're saying, Ragu, whether or not he was awakened or not. I don't know, but I do know that there was a lot of, whenever you have to tell somebody to worship you, whenever you hear those words coming out of your mouth, chances are you're diverted from the right path. It's like, when you're with a, when in a bad role, you know, and when you tell someone to love you, if you're in a relationship that's weird and you want, and you ask someone to show more love to me, it's like, it's not, you know, that's a bad situation you're in. You want to, it should be this natural outflowing that comes when you come into contact with people that you love, whether they're an expression of the divine personality of Godhead,

or whether they're your mom, or your aunt, or your girlfriend, or your wife, or your dog. Yeah, exactly, exactly, exactly. And that is, actually, that is precisely the truth, that you, it's all natural outpouring, natural flow back and forth, natural under, you know, I mean, my best example of that, jeez, I'm going to get killed, Duncan, from this, maybe you'll have to edit me out of all this stuff. But I, when I first went to India, I went to, there's another guru named Swami Muktananda who lived in Ganeshpuri in India, many people, today, her, his successor, Guru Mai, you know, has many, many, many international devotees. So he was a major figure for West, in the West.

He came to America, actually Ram Das took him around, because he really liked him, and introduced him to his constituency. So I went there before I met Neem Karoli Baba, I went to that ashram. And, and I didn't know anything about anything, okay, I had just gotten to India. I couldn't, you know, Ram Das said, I don't know where Maharaj is, so just do your own thing, and I'll let you know. So, I was traveling around, just doing whatever, right, and I went to the ashram, and I saw, so okay, you can go meet the Swami, meet the Guru. And so, you know, they led me in a room, and there was people, it was kind of like, you know, a bunch of people, so it was a line, people were kind of seeing him, and then going to the side. And I saw they were all bowing down, and touching his feet.

So I'm thinking, holy shit, is this part of the thing? I don't, you know, like I never seen anything like this before. Actually, that's not totally true. I did have an experience before, with another being who was a very high being, who none of this appeared to me the way that this did, where I said to myself, this is, doesn't, I don't feel anything. And I did it, but I was just really like, having no relationship with it whatsoever, except it was a mind trip. The next day Ram Das comes, I say to him, you know, I don't, what is this, bowing down stuff? I mean, I'm not at all into it. And I don't understand, he says, it's just, you know, the light in you honoring the light in them. Just think of it on those terms, he said. And then if you have a problem with it, good stuff to work with, anyhow. So treat it like that. Went back the next day, same thing, left.

And it was at that moment Ram Das had given me the address to go see Nim Karoli Baba. So I went up to the mountains two days later, I'm walking in the ashram. And I'm sitting at this table where he used to tuck it, it's called wooden bed, plank bed, where he comes out and sits. And he came out. And I didn't even, it wasn't even a matter of thinking about, I was actually sitting down and he came and he was standing and then he sat down. I just jacked rabbit into the down position and, you know, it was just like, holy shit, this is this, this is it. You know, I mean, I had, I could do nothing else. There was no mind at all. This was honoring what it is, what everything in that moment, you know, I couldn't express it in words. I mean, to me, the thing was home. And I was actually bowing down to being at home again.

Wow. That is so intense. That is, it sounds like almost like, it reminds me of the way filaments react to an energy field, like magnetic filaments. Exactly. Exactly. No choice. No choice. You have no choice. And, you know, and where I was before, I, it was, I was completely in my mind because I had nothing to do with him. And there was no, there was nothing going, I actually had one exchange with him where he said, where are you going? I said, well, I finally can go see my guru, even though I hadn't met him. I don't know how I said my guru. It was, you know, I knew Rondas and that was, you know, and he said in Hindi, very good. And I, he kind of, you know, I had a nice feeling when I left, but absolutely categorically, completely like I was a different human being. Wow. That is, I think, you know, some, this, that is to me so terrifying. The experience, I know it sounds ridiculous that I describe it as terrifying, but it's, you are, you know, to experience that kind of radical transformation of your life.

Even if it is for the better, there's something in that shift that seems so, it seems so frightening. No, because you're being, you're, you're thinking about it and being dramatic. When you're, there was nothing, there was no thinking. And even after it happened, I mean, you're so happy as shit to, to feel this place which you've been longing for forever. You're just happy. Okay. Then you get fucked up after that because you start, you know, you see the mirror reflection of your mind and your crap. And it's like a horror. But, but certainly in the first, you know, and that goes, that's not all the time goes off and on, you know, feeling getting caught in your mind and not. And then, you know, and he, he sped all that up for us. He just sped it up and gave us a rudder and that rudder was that moment. And, and, and that those moments continued. So, no, it's nothing scary. It's scary doesn't come anywhere near that place. Well, let me just say, I think weird and scary aren't always bad. So when I say those things, I don't mean like getting chased by some guy with an executioner's hood who's got a hatchet or something. I just mean the kind of, you know, if I'm on a plane on a runway and the thing starts taking off and you go from this kind of, you know, going very slow to going incredibly fast acceleration is so breathtaking and intense. What you're describing when I hear it, I just get butterflies and it gives me a just, I think I would be, there's always a part of me that is so scared of getting taken in, you know, getting tricked or fooled. And it feels like there'd be some little corner of my mind shaking its head and watching me fall down and at the feet of the guru shaking its head and being like, Well, here we go. I have to admit to you actually something now that I had secretly gotten people to prompt you in ways that you, you know, would be too far out to talk about to actually get in touch with me originally and say, you know, I want to help you put some podcasts together.

So can I do that? And I slowly and gradually have sucked you in. I wish. Oh my God. You know, the other side of that is that my ego would love that so much because it's like, they want me. Finally, someone wants me. But, but yeah, no, I know it's paranoia and insanity. It wasn't just the same on a much lower level, but you know, you fall in love for the first time or the 10th time or how many times you do. There are problems with that expression falling in love. It should be rising in love if it means anything to me. But I do remember a couple of times when I have fallen in love that, you know, it's not something you think about. You might think about it, but it gets convoluted if you say you just want to be with that person and everything else dims. And it's very natural, but it is a little frightening too, because you know, at some point it's going to mess you up.

You know, it's very rare that you, as it were, fall in love and then it just remains, you know, equal for the rest of your life. It doesn't. It changes you and it makes, shifts you in such a way that you have to act differently if you really want to stay in any love that means anything with someone. So there is that sort of mix. That's an important thing you're saying. Well, maybe. The truth is that when I fall in love a few times that I have, everything else is irrelevant and no one can argue about it with you. You know, sometimes someone will say to you, why do you fall in love with her? She's so weird or she's so, you know, she's not good enough for you or she's too good for you. You don't like the way she dresses or whatever or she likes her uncle. People can just do that to you and you just look at them with that look of like, well, you know, you know what you can do?

You can just fuck off because I'm completely in love with this person. I'm not really in love with you for saying this. So you'll kind of leave the room and I've done that because, you know, it's such a totally merchant. Now to make an analogy between that and one's relationship with a master may be vulgar. But there are some, there is some kind of real analogy here. Yes. That total feeling, as Ragu said, of being at home, falling in love is, you know, you do feel, oh my goodness, I don't have to look for anymore. I don't have to be alone.

I don't have to do this or that. And here is this woman who I just want to be with. I adore her and maybe possibly she adores me, unlike it, but it happens. See, in this case, Dave, in this case, you absolutely know that that person, you are completely unconditionally loved. So that's where you take what you're saying and transfer it over like falling in love because that's that's what happens. You fall in, you rise up to whatever. And in that safe environment, that home environment, what you said is key that over time that you said within a relationship over time that love evolves. It continuously changes.

And if it's a good relationship, it continually brings two people closer. So in the same way, what's necessary with this master guide, Siddha, whatever, we're trying to get away from Guru, in this situation with an awakened being and you fall into that place of awakeness with them, then there's a relationship between two people that, well, there's no relationship from the Guru, from the master point of view. But from the point of view of one who is not awakened yet, there is an evolvement that is guided by this being through all of life's events, everything that happens through your karma, everything that happens, everything you think, all of it. And it's guided by this rudder of that home. And you are so always at home that you're able to withstand the vicissitudes of what happens to us in our puny little incarnations. Well, you guys hit the lottery. Yeah, we did. The money.

Yeah, where's the money? What happened? It's way better than money. What you're talking about is way better than anything. And I think people listening probably, even though it's so beautiful and inspiring, and I know that there is the idea that these gurus don't have to be embodied to have a relationship with them or experience them. But still, come on, man, we want that. We want to come in contact, not just with a disembodied consciousness, but that visceral moment of having your mind completely overcome by love, falling down at the feet of the master, experiencing this sort of collapse of your identity into a place where you're completely enveloped by perfect love. This is what we're all thirsty for. So it is a bit of a, these stories are so wonderful, but it's kind of like when you hear somebody who says they've been on a UFO. You're like, yeah, lucky you. I want to go on a UFO. I want to see this. I want to experience this. But isn't it true that some of us won't get this for maybe a million billion lifetimes? I don't know about that, but the reality is true because I have seen it. You do not need to physically meet. I personally know dozens and dozens and dozens of people, well, who never met in this particular case, named Karoli Baba, that have no different connection to him that I do or anybody.

And the fact is that many of us, after name Karoli Baba left that body, we were so attached, I would say on average it took maybe 20 years, maybe more, to come to some understanding of reality regarding what we actually experienced. And I'll give you, this is the best example of it. And this is from, there's a llama named Suridas. He's a Tibetan llama. He's done extensive retreats. I mean, this man spent five years in a cave in France where they do these five-year meditations. If you can imagine being alone for five, never mind sitting. So he really put in the work, shall we say. He first went to India. He met name Karoli Baba. He met Maharaj. And then later, of course, he had Tibetan teachers and gurus and so on. But here's his story, which comes from, I'm going to promote a book in a minute. He went to see Maharaj. He went to somebody's daughter's house, an Indian man's house, where we were all gathered. They said, okay, just sit here in the living room and he sat at that same kind of table or bed that he would sit on. And just sit here. He's not available right now. And, you know, you can just relax. So he went right in front of it and he went in, he's meditated. He was always a meditator. So he went into meditation and he had deep experience of Maharaj, but completely as the universal one. Okay. Completely in a non-dual, his meditation took him to a non-dual place. There was no worshiping. There was no two. There was no in love with nothing. Okay. And he called that, oh, that's the big Maharaj. Then somebody said to him, okay, Maharaj is ready to see you now. And so he went into a room where Maharaj was. And he said he had to come down to relate with what he called the small Maharaj.

And that is the real truth. Okay. That's, and it took us 20, 30 years to even get near that because of meeting him physically. You know, and there's still, we all still have some little place that people who didn't meet him in the physical don't have, and they don't have to deal with it. And they more easily in many cases can merge into that space. You know, if they're doing real practice, you know, it takes real practice, by the way, to merge into those kind of spaces as proven by this lama who did five years in a cave. So, and that's not what we should be doing necessarily at all. But we should understand that we can connect. And it is, and that home place is that love. I mean, Duncan, you were with me in Maui. We went and we saw Ram Dass. We had dimmered them one night, right? Yes. And we just hung out. And, you know, and it was just convivial love. Forget it. I think about it every day. So it was that space. And so in that sense, that is the Guru. Yes.

That love, that what we shared in that moment, that's what it is. It's simple as that. And, and, and really, you know, being too dramatic about, obviously, there, everyone does have a guide. I say obviously for, you know, and that's a disclaimer, but it's, I mean, many, many people who know far more than I say the same thing. A guide is necessary to be able to become awakened. And so there has to be an interest on one's part to an awakened means just be, you know, kinder to the person next to you is awakened, right? That starts the awakened path. Well, and I think an important distinction, I'm sorry to cut you off, but that you've made is you say that to go into this space, practice is necessary. And people in the West who are accustomed to more of a kind of Judeo-Christian concept where all you need is this faith and an ephemeral thing and you're going to be fine. It might be easy for them to, as you're talking about this stuff, to think, well, all I need is to have some kind of just whatever faith and the idea that this be, I can connect to this being at any second. And I think that a big distinction here is that what you're saying is it's not enough to do that. You need to have an active practice to make this connection happen. Is that fair to say? Yeah, that's fair to say. Yeah, the active practice is defiable in many ways. You know, Judeo-Christian people who are kind and live out what they perceive as crusts, you know, behavior, that is a practice and a tough one.

I mean, I've met real Christians and, you know, I can't possibly say about their practice that is inferior to, you know. I know. I don't mean real Christians. Well, I've met quite a few of them. And, you know, and Jews, too, who practice their thing and it's the height of folly to make judgments about an entire group of evil. It doesn't fit your taste, you know. Right. I'm sorry if that came off like I was judging them. In general, people, you know, do make these judgments. I don't because, you know, I don't have the overwhelming over, you know, fantastic knowledge that I can say that someone who is just simply kind to everyone and does it automatically without thought but with genuine unconditional love has got an inferior practice to mine. I was talking about those Bible tracks, you know, or like when you see the televangelists and they say, just say these words. Oh, dear Jesus Christ, please. But you know, there are lots of Buddhists that can make you crazy, too. And so those guys got on TV and they're just merchants, most of them. I'm not really talking about that. I'm talking about one of the doorman in my apartment building, for instance, who's not a merchant. And no, no axe to grind.

So I'm just myself. I'm just talking to myself here. I don't want to segregate other people's idea of practice. Practice may well be just being kind to everyone and trying to advance love in your world in a real way. Practice without love is another story, you know. I mean, you know, that doesn't work for me. So if you're not showing love to people and you're not showing loving kindness to people in your life, then you've got a ways to go and I will make that judgment. Well, this is the idea of Paul versus James in the Bible. Faith or works, what's more important, you know. And I think it feels like what Raghu is saying falls more on the area of works. You've got to practice, whereas some people say you don't have to practice at all. You just have to have faith that things are going to be okay. So, yeah, it's two different ways of looking at things.

Yeah, and there's a way in which we're slicing up the same piece of fruit, you know. I think the reality is, and David's comment, a part of his comment is the biggest truth, which is anything you do if it's not done from the heart. You know, if you're doing it from your head and your ego, you know, Ram Dass has a whole meditation for you these days. And for all of us, for that matter, which is getting your perspective, your vantage out of your mind and into the center of your chest, into the spiritual heart or soul, or whatever you want to call it, no mind. And it has to be done. So, mindfulness practices, which are really important for understanding, you know, getting at our true nature, which includes meditation. You know, I was going to say, I want to promote something. I've changed my mind about what I want to promote. I want to promote Joseph Goldstein's book, Mindfulness, because we're talking about, okay, if anybody asks you, what the hell can we do to just take step one? You buy that book, Mindfulness, Joseph Goldstein. It is absolutely a roadmap to balancing our daily life and getting to free, period.

Now, you know, the Buddhist, of course, you know, this is, you know, don't take my word for it, he said, just do it. So it's very much, you know, the Tibetans, though, are all very much about, you know, having a teacher or having, you know, an awakened person guiding you. So there's different strokes there within Buddhism. But, you know, what we were particularly given was Buddhist meditation and the path of the heart in combination. And we've all, I don't, not all, all, but many of us have delved into using, you know, reading so that we can get some grasp of, and most of the reading is about who's made it. You know, we're not, we're reading about, I mean, certainly in my own case, you know, I love to read books either by really awakened people or biographies of who made it and what they went through and all of that. So we're not saying that the mind is, should be completely put aside. But for the most part, as they say, that's why Hare Krishna Hare Ram. In this, the dark age of darkness and destruction, repeat that mantra and, you know, all of you will get released. And so I, again, I've become a Hare Krishna and I, I'm completely, that's, I mean, that mantra, I learned this guy had a melody for this mantra, Duncan, that was just stupendous.

And I made it my business. I got it off the net and made an mp3 and I learned every note of this thing. And that's all I do these days. You sing the Kirtan, the specific melody that goes. This guy, this guy had a, he had the best, what they call Bob, the best emotive expression towards that thing, which is. Can I play it on this podcast? You'll know, they think you're really nuts. I thought I'm nuts since the beginning, I'm sure. But I love chanting Hare Krishna. I'm going to send you the track. You know what? I'll actually cut a piece of it because it's an hour and a half.

It's a perfect way to close the podcast. Okay, I'll do it. You too. I mean, I got to tell you, I'm so fortunate to have friends like you in my life. And as somebody who does, you know, probably because of my many terrible, awful things I've done, not just in past lives, but in the last couple of weeks, I'll never get to meet this being, except through you guys. And you know what? That's good enough for me. I feel very fortunate to have you as my friends. And thank you so much for always reminding me how absolutely neurotic and overly dramatic I tend to become about this stuff.

It's so great. I'm going to do, I want to do one thing for you, though. Please. You know, Larry David, you've watched Curb Your Enthusiasm? Yes. Yeah. So there's the episode where he's trying to get his friend Richard up the list to get a kidney transplant. I haven't seen that. I haven't seen that episode. It's hilarious.

Oh, you've got to see it. It's absolutely unbelievable. He becomes a Hasidic Jew just to, because it turns out there's a rabbi that's in control of the list at Cedar Sinai. And he turns, so he meets him and he pretends he's a Hasidic Jew and that he's going to do something for the guys foundation. Anyhow, it ends up into the most insane, because Larry doesn't know shit from Shinole about Judaism, even though he's Jewish. And it's insane. So I want to do the same thing for you, because you probably are at the very bottom of the list of people who will actually be able to meet the true Guru. So I'm going to, I'm going to push you forward. And I guarantee you, in this lifetime, you are going to meet an omniscient Baba, okay?

Okay, that's, you guarantee it. I'm guaranteeing it. I'm putting you at the head of the line, okay? That's all it takes is for you to say that you guarantee it? Yeah, that's all it takes. Yeah. What do I get if I don't? Well, we'll have to really consider that in another lifetime or something. Well, thank you so much for putting me at the top of the list, Ragu. And thanks, Dave and Ragu, for doing the podcast.

I will have links to your fantastic podcast at dugoutrustle.com. Is there anything else that people should know to get in touch with you or to find you? Mindrollingpodcast.com, please do come. And we've got, we've actually got a bunch of episodes up there in the last year. We've really done it. So we have wonderful archives with all sorts, like Joseph Goldstein. You've got to listen to that one. That is one of the greatest things that we've done, podcast David and I's done.

So just, there's lots of wonderful stuff up there. Go up there and we thank you, Duncan, because, and we thank you, Duncan listeners. Duncan Trustle family, our listeners. We thank you. You've come over and you're supporting us and it's marvelous. Well, thanks. Thanks everybody. And, um, Hari Krishna.

Hari Krishna. Hari Ram. Hari Ram. Thanks for listening, everybody. If you like the podcast, why not head on over to iTunes and give us a nice rating. And don't forget to hug your dog and don't forget to get your mommy and daddy professionally groomed. Now enjoy some chanting, what's called Japa with his divine grace, AC Bhakti Vedanta Swami Prabhupada, the founder of the Hari Krishnas and the devotees.

Hari. Krishna. Hari Krishna. Hari Krishna Krishna Krishna. Hari, Hari Ram, Hari Ram Ram Ram Ram. Hari, Hari Krishna, Hari Krishna Krishna. Hari Ram, Hari Ram Ram Ram Ram Ram. Hari, Hari Krishna, Hari Krishna Krishna.

Hari, Hari Krishna, Hari Krishna Krishna. Hari, Hari Krishna. Hari Krishna, Hari Krishna Krishna Krishna. Hari, Hari Krishna Krishna Krishna. Hari Krishna, Hari Krishna Krishna Krishna. Hari Ram, AI Ram Ram Ram Ram Ram. Hari Krishna, Hari Krishna Krishna Krishna.

Hari, Hari Ram Ram Ram Ram Ram Ram Ram Ram Ram. Hari Krishna. Hari Krishna Krishna Krishna Krishna. Hari Krishna, Hari Krishna Krishna Krishna Ram Ram Ram Ram Ram Ram Ram. Hari Krishna, Hari Krishna Krishna Krishna Ram Ram Ram Ram Ram Ram Ram Ram Chu... Hari Krishna, Hari Krishna Krishna Ram Ram Ram Ram meinem Ram Ram Ram Ram. Hari Krishna, Hari Krishna Krishna Krishna Ram Ram Ram Ram Ram. Hari Krishna, Hari Krishna Krishna Ram Ram Ram Ram.

Hari Krishna, Hari Krishna Krishna Krishna Ram Ram Ram Ram Ram Ram Ram Ram Ram Ram Ram Ram Ram Ram Ram Ram Ram Ram Ram Ram Ram Ram Ram Ram Ram Ram Ram Ram Ram Ram Ram Ram Ram Ram Ram Ram Ram Ram Ram Ram Ram Ram Ram Ram Ram Ram Ram Ram Ram Ram Ram. Hari Krishna, Hari Krishna Krishna Ram Ram Ram Ram Ram Ram Ram Ram Ram Ram Ram Ram Ram Ram Ram Ram Ram Ram Ram Ram Ram Ram Ram Ram Ram Ram Ram Ram Ram Ram Ram Ram Ram Ram Ram Ram Ram Ram Ram Ram Ram Ram Ram Ram Ram Ram Ram Ram Ram Ram Ram Ram Ram Ram Ram Ram Ram Ram Ram Ram Ram Ram Ram Ram Ram Ram Ram Ram Ram Ram Ram Ram Ram Ram Ram Ram Ram Ram Ram Ram Ram Ram Ram Ram Ram Ram Ram Ram Ram Ram Ram Ram Ram Ram Ram Ram Ram Ram Ram Ram Ram Ram Ram Ram Ram Ram Ram Ram Ram Ram Ram Ram Ram Ram Ram Ram Ram Ram Ram Ram Ram Ram Ram Ram Ram Ram Ram Ram Ram Ram Ram Ram Ram Ram Ram Ram Ram Ram Ram Ram Ram Ram Ram Ram Ram Ram Ram Ram Ram Ram Ram Ram Ram Ram Ram Ram Ram Ram Ram Ram Ram Ram Ram Ram Ram Ram Ram Ram Ram Ram Ram Ram Ram Ram Ram Ram Ram Ram Ram Ram Ram Ram Ram Ram Ram Ram Ram Ram Ram Ram Ram Ram Ram Ram Ram Ram Ram Ram Ram Ram Ram Ram Ram Ram Ram Ram Ram Ram Ram Ram Ram Ram Ram Ram Ram Ram Ram Hari Krishna, Hari Krishna, Hari Krishna When life gets crazy and when doesn't it, Shoprite helps you keep it all together, now with a little extra help from Instacart. If you need your groceries now-ish, but your options for going to Shoprite are later-ish or never-ish, you can get everything you need delivered through Instacart right to your door in as fast as an hour.

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