Duncan Trussell Family Hour - Jason Louv

Episode Date: February 24, 2018

Dive into the world of Enochian Angels and John Dee in this occult-blaster of an episode with author, and occult scholar Jason Louv.

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Go to blueapron.com forward slash trussell to get three free delicious healthy blueapron meals along with free shipping. Blueapron. Hello my sweet vibratory chalices of Perceptronium. Tis I, D Trussell and thou art listening to the Duncan Trussell family hour podcast and no doubt you have barely done anything today because you are still trembling in horror at the catastrophe that happened last night at the Academy Awards. Or as Juliet Goodrich from channel five in San Francisco so aptly put it.

I'm Juliet Goodrich. History was made tonight and not in a good way. My dear listeners it is with great hesitation that I play the following clip only because I know that it is probably echoing through your mind at a thousand times per second. And I'm aware that to hear it one more time could be the straw that breaks the camel's back and sends some of you careening out of your cars, out of your homes, out of your offices, out of your subway trains and into a crowd of horrified onlookers who gaze upon you as you blast explosive diarrhea out of every single one of your orifices and fall

to the ground like a deflated, oily, trembling beach ball. And yet for the sake of this podcast I feel that I need to play it because I know that there are at least three of my listeners who are stationed in various top secret base stations in Antarctica and don't have access to the Academy Awards. So strap in babies because here it comes. The Academy Award for Best Picture. You're awesome. Come on.

La La Land. But you know. I'm sorry. No. There's a mistake. Moonlight. You guys won Best Picture. Moonlight won.

Come on. This is not a joke. This is not a joke. I'm afraid they read the wrong thing. This is not a joke. Moonlight has won Best Picture. Moonlight. Best Picture.

This is not the way things are supposed to happen. There's never a time when a 42-year-old microdose and ass should start rapping. But I'm panicking because it feels like someone from the Academy got distracted at their cabin at the Bohemian Grove. Found a treasure trove of butt plugs made out of baby skulls and wrote in the wrong envelope. I don't want to live in this simulation. Don't want to live in this nation. Don't want to live in a place where Warren Beatty gives bad award information.

Don't want to be negative, but sometimes it feels like the way a creation broke a spoke. This has got to be a joke. This is not. This is not. This is not not not a joke. This is not. This is not. This is not not not a joke.

I'm going to find you all individually. And I'm going to f**k you. Warren Beatty, how could you betray me when you read the wrong movie? Man, you f**king elate me. With my heart out, you've broken into pieces. Many questions in reality made me pray to my Jesus. And Jesus didn't say nothing because Jesus croaked. For God, someone help us.

This has got to be a joke. This is not. This is not. This is not not not a joke. This is not. This is not. This is not not not a joke. Time útil is real.

Time Zoom is real. Time you feel this feel. Time you feel this feel. Time you feel this feel. Time you feel this feel. Time you feel this feel. Time you feel this feel. Time you feel this feel.

Time you feel this f**king.... Time you feel this feel. Time you feel this feel. Time you feel this f**king.... Time you feel this feel. Time you feel this feel. Time you feel this f**king.... This is not.

This is not. This is not not not the joke. Show em all. This is not. This is not. This is not not not the joke. This is Brian Cossack. Thank you for making me laugh.

Ceremonies. My sweet friends today I offer under you a powerful podcast with a great teacher of the occult, Jason Louvre. I hope you're prepared to enter into the realm of magic. We're going to jump right into it, but first some quick business. April 16th, 2003, David French goes to a local restaurant and orders a bowl of calamari with some barbecue sauce. He takes three bites of the calamari and begins to complain to the waiter about a

sudden bout of dizziness. Unbeknownst to French, the calamari had VX nerve agent inside of it. As it turns out, the chef had top secret clearance at one of the local military bases and had come home with a vial of VX nerve agent, which happens to look exactly like barbecue sauce. The chef had been confused and it filled French's barbecue sauce bowl with VX nerve agent. For the next 30 hours, French went through a series of horrific seizures.

He bled out of his pores. He clawed his own nipples off and dug his fingers into the holes, desperately trying to poke his own heart to end his life. But he was incapable of this form of suicide because the VX nerve agent had made it impossible for his brain to communicate with his body. This story is one of the many reasons why you should learn to cook at your own home. And thanks to Blue Apron, this is now a possibility. Let's face it, you don't want to die like some cockroach sprayed by poison, twitching

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That's what I got to read. Here's my experience with Blue Apron. I have a friend who's made a tradition out of Blue Apron. He has his friends come over and he cooks an incredible Blue Apron meal and he seems like a god on earth because these days a lot of people don't know how to cook. Maybe you're one of those people. Now it's time to learn. You can make it seem like you are someone who climbed down from Mount Olympus, the most

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Blue Apron.com forward slash trussell. Try them today. Friends, we've got another live DTFH coming up at the bell house. That's going to be March 21st with Krishna Doss. If you don't know who Krishna Doss is, go look him up. He's amazing. He's a Kirtan Walla. He is a devotee of Neem Karoli Baba.

He's amazing. And this is your chance to do some, to sing some Kirtans. We might do that in the very beginning and also to find out what is chanting, why it works, what are the roots of chanting and whatever else we end up talking about. I hope you'll come. The last one with Hamilton Morris was fantastic. I'll be releasing that later this week. It's sold out.

So make sure that you get your tickets in advance for Krishna Doss because he will definitely sell out. That's March 21st at the bell house. Ticket links are at dunkintrussell.com. Also, much thanks to those of you who still use our Amazon link. All you got to do the next time you're going to buy some beautiful configuration of plastic molecules is go through the link at dunkintrussell.com and the sweet darlings at amazon.com will give us a very small percentage of anything that you buy.

What did I just buy at Amazon? You ask, I'll tell you an Ableton push to, if you want to dive into some vortex of electronic music creation, just for no reason at all. I'm just doing it because it seems like, well, I guess I can, I used it on this podcast. So there is some reason behind it, but the way I look at it is rather than spending all of my time playing Hearthstone, I'll spend 95% of my time playing Hearthstone and the other 5% learning how to make music on the Ableton push. It's a blast.

Check it out. If you want a piece of musical equipment, it's amazing. Unfortunately, you also have Ableton, you have to have Ableton to go with it. So I don't know if you're someone who already has Ableton, check it out. I guess that's it. Friends, today's guest is the real deal. He's an author. He's written several books, including Generation Hex, Monsanto Versus the World, the PsyCic

Bible, and the Ultra Culture Journal. He also teaches magic and the occult. If you're interested in taking a class with Jason, go to www.magic.me. It's an online school for learning magic. It's got lots of trainings. If you use the code DTFH, you'll get 30% off your first month of a monthly subscription. So if you feel drawn into the realms of magic and you want to risk your own sanity to experiment with some of the coolest, strangest, subjective modalities out there, then Jason Lueve is

a wonderful teacher for you to investigate. Before you do that, why not listen to the podcast and get your mind blown as we talk about John Dee and the Anokian Angels. Now everybody, please spread those secret wings that you have underneath your shirt, extend your astral body, and send as much love and mana and prana in the direction of one of the premier teachers of the occult living in the world today. The great Jason Lueve. Jason, welcome back to the DTFH.

How is your book going? Hey Duncan, just wrapping it up. After two years, I haven't left the house for about two years, during which time I've only been obsessing on John Dee and the minutiae of Christian apocalypticism and only occasionally breaking to play Dungeons and Dragons, my true love for this world. Can you tell people who John Dee is? So John Dee was the magical advisor to Queen Elizabeth I and he was a guy who knew everything at a time when it was still possible to know everything in the world because we were just

entering or just in the Renaissance basically and humanity or at least European civilization was just starting to reclaim its knowledge after it was all lost in the Dark Ages. So he was a guy who wanted to know everything and that included mathematics and navigation, geography, and the occult. And so he's probably, in my opinion, certainly the most advanced occult thinker of the Renaissance and since Western culture kind of just ditched the idea of the occult and magic after the Scientific Revolution. That means he's still one of the most advanced thinkers on the topic.

So this is the guy that is a great fascination to me particularly because he's also the guy that came up with the phrase the British Empire and he's the person who's responsible for essentially the plan to create a British Empire. So it's thanks to him that we're here today in a way in the current, you know, the current world order, the new world order as you might put it is his creation. I kind of think of him as like the architect and the matrix to use to make the tacky, do the tacky thing of using a matrix metaphor. But in that time period, did people view the occult in the same way as they do today?

I mean, I know, but probably people thought there was more validity in some of the ideas that now are considered to be rubbish. But was it considered during that time period to be an off limits kind of thing that you weren't supposed to investigate or get into? For average people, yes, absolutely. I mean, people were still extremely superstitious. You have to remember that this is a time period where people thought that math was the work level.

And John Dee was also one of the first people to popularize math, which people were just as terrified of as the occult. But for the elite, for the educated, for the academic high registers of society, it was the central concern. People were obsessed with the idea of hermeticism, renaissance, neoplatonism, as it's called, magic, the occult directly trying to make experiments to influence reality using Kabbalistic techniques or techniques drawn from the Kermores. So it was the central thing.

So the royal families were casting spells. Elizabeth was, first of all, a genius. This is a woman who was known even as an eight-year-old when she was being tutored. She could, in her spare time, she would translate Latin into Greek and back into Greek in her head. This isn't just government, or this isn't propaganda. You think this is real? It sounds a little bit like Kim Jong-il or, like, legends, people build her.

Well, maybe. Okay, so there's that. And we would have to go back and look closely. But it's definitely a historical record that Elizabeth, in particular, was extremely interested in hermeticism and alchemy. She really wanted to find the philosopher's stone in order, primarily in order to cure her smallpox and also extend her lifespan. But she was constantly getting into trouble falling for the claims of people who showed

up claiming they could make gold because, obviously, there was, like, a real gold rush. People were sinking tons and tons of money all over Europe into solving the secrets of alchemy because whoever figured that out first would essentially have infinite money and have the economic advantage over everyone else. Right. So they were very, very, very interested in it, but primarily for that reason, which was can we make infinite money? You know, there's an interesting parallel between the current attempt by, like, Google

to create an AI, like what do they call it? A strong AI. It's a similar thing because the moment a corporation has a super intelligence theoretically at their back and call. I mean, that's the thing everyone's worried about. It's why would it listen to you? But then they have this severe advantage over every other corporation. So it's a curious repetition.

Only now, instead of trying to turn lead into gold, we're trying to turn computers into mines, you know? But it's like a similar kind of alchemy. But to get back to... Yes. Well, I think that... I'm glad you touched on that, though, because I think the parallels are incredible even during the Renaissance.

It was in the Italian city-states. The Medici were the ones who really first put a lot of funding into figuring this stuff out. And the Italian city-states are very similar to Silicon Valley now, where it's a small group of people with an extreme amount of money who are kind of in this heightened position over everyone else in society. And they're trying to figure out this kind of Faustian thing that will give them a permanent advantage.

So I think the parallels are there. I think that the... It also just demonstrates this ongoing theme in Western culture of this kind of Faustian thing that seems to be part of Western civilization, where people are constantly trying to figure something out or do something that's maybe not a good idea. Yeah, exactly. Something that you just don't know what the... Because if you did figure out a way to transform lead into gold, you're not going to hold onto

that recipe forever. Everyone's going to want it, and the moment people see that it can be done, then that will only make people more enthusiastic in the pursuit of whatever the formula is. But essentially, you just wreck the market, right? This is what happened to aluminum would have happened to gold. It's like, who gives a fuck? Everyone has gold. Gold is everywhere now.

So it just never happened. So gold is still valuable. Right. So to get back to John Dee, where did he come from? How does a person become a court magician? Was that what he has called, or was he called an advisor? Yeah, I think his technical title was the astrological advisor to Elizabeth. He's often romanticized by people who look at him.

But the reality is he was a fairly poorly paid government consultant. They were never... No. They took advantage of him quite a bit. He was never getting properly funded. This is still the sign in England where there was no funding for science. He was an academic. But because he was never treated properly up until...

I mean, he worked tirelessly for England up until his 50s. But because he was never really paid or treated properly, and he kind of fell out of favor at court because they considered his imperial plans fanciful and not particularly serious, even though they later used them. And once his career kind of fell apart, he retreated totally into the world of the occult. And over about 10 years, with a guy named Edward Kelly, was doing nothing except trying to communicate with angels, which is what most people know him for today, which is a bizarre story.

Is that... Are the angels he was trying to communicate with? That's the Inokian spirits? Is that what that is? Yes. That's what it's called today. Help me understand. I am so foggy on what that is, and yet it's a thing that pops up all the time.

Okay. So, Inokian is a modern word. He did not use it. He was just saying he was talking to angels. But essentially what they were doing is... So he was working with a scrier, and a scrier is essentially a psychic. It's somebody who has what we would now consider like the visionary faculty to go into trance states and experience kind of internal visions.

This is something we know today from the... You know, people have all kinds of ways of doing this now, chemical or otherwise. But at the time, people were primarily... You know, they had more rudimentary ways of doing it. What were they? Were they taking psychoactives back then? Or what was their formula? I tried to figure that out.

I think that... I'm not... There's a lot that suggests they may have... Belladonna. We know there's... Yeah. Totally. And also, I mean, magic mushrooms in cannabis grow naturally in England.

You know, they grow like... Their English mushrooms are extremely bizarre, you know. But if they were using that stuff, it's weird because you would think... Why would they hide that? You would think that would just be a known fact. Like in those days, if people were scrying, it just seems like they would just announce, yeah, we eat mushrooms when we do this, but you never hear about it. Or they would have done something like, yes, we prepared the alchemical texture of the flight,

you know, like the philosopher's term into that. You know, they would use some bizarre alchemical language, but there's really not anything like that in the records. So I don't know, but it's possible because Kelly is constantly going out the rails and having bad trips and just like losing his gourd. So that kind of suggests they might have been partaking. Yeah. Right.

You know what it brings to mind? Pendleton Ward, who, I think the first time he was on the podcast, I asked the rather, what I now understand to be a very rude question to ask an artist, which is, how high were you when you thought of that, man? And like a lot of times, and like Pendleton's like, I wasn't at all, I don't need to get high to think of adventure time. I don't need that. So a lot of many artists, when you insinuate that they must have been under the effect of a psychedelic,

they, it's not like they get ruffled, but they're just like, no, you think you need that, but you don't. I mean, maybe a scarier to think that you can access these angels with no psychoactive chemicals and with no tinctures that if you just knew the correct procedure, then you could immediately commune with the spirits. Right. Well, look, I mean, you know, magic is a funny word, but magic itself is a set of techniques for doing that without chemicals.

I mean, it's a set of techniques for entering altered states of consciousness and things like yoga poses or Pranayama over breathing or, you know, what's called astral travel, which is kind of really just guided visualization. All of those techniques are for entering these states of consciousness and inscriting itself, which is staring at a crystal ball or a black mirror until you basically just kind of trans out and enter a visionary state. All of these things are methods for getting out of your own way. And if you're good at that, you know, particularly if you're an artist,

you're just someone who stays in creative states of mind a lot, that's pretty easy. You know, I think it's particularly people who are hyper-rational or more scientifically minded, often have a problem dropping their own suspension of disbelief in a way or allowing themselves to experience those things. But all it really is is a matter of allowing yourself to experience it, you know? Right. Yeah, that's right. That is so crazy. I mean, I think this is definitely something people just don't want to deal with.

They don't want to deal with the fact that the membrane surrounding them and creating whatever kind of like subjective biosphere that they've been living in is completely transformable, permeable. You can just take that thing down and suddenly you have entered into the vortex. Suddenly you're surrounded and you're in the mind of God. I don't think people want to know that. I think they would rather just not know that every single thing around them that they consider to be rational is just a kind of defense mechanism

to protect them from the raging cyclone of spirit that surrounds all of us. Yes, well, we're in the mind of God all the time. We've just forgotten that. When we're in altered states, we're just in a different density of the mind of God. We're in the imaginary part, the part that looks like imaginary to us, that operates like a cartoon and has a little bit more, has different rules. But everything is part of the mind of God. Let me ask you this.

I think you're totally right about that. This is going to sound like such a pithy question, but I got to ask it. If we're in the mind of God and we've forgotten that, does that mean that God has forgotten us? In other words, is it a result of God forgetting aspects of God's creation, that their creation simultaneously forget the progenitor of the creation, or do you think that in the mind of God, we are always held in remembrance? Well, yes, I think we are.

But it's also a question of have we forgotten, or are we just pretending to have forgotten? It's like when you go into a movie. Have you really forgotten it's a movie, or are you pretending that you don't know it's a movie so that it's more fun to watch? Right. Yeah, and it's not just with the movies. It's with a lot of things, right? The human tendency to deceive the self.

Right. And we have so many reasons for doing that, you know, that go way beyond enjoying. To enjoy your life, you need to... In other words, if I want to live in a world where I'm an okay person, then I need to forget some shit that I've done, right? Yes, yeah, yeah. You know, like you've got to forget, like you can't like... It's too real though, okay?

It's real, I mean it is. But you know, the time that you like, I don't know, like kick the dog, or like, oh, you know what, here's a real basic example. Every time you sit down for a nice steak, you know, like you have got to forget what the fuck you're eating. And if you don't, I mean some people will be like, I don't forget. I relish that I'm eating the flesh of a beast, but like that's not most of us. Most of us like to sit down to a meal.

Like if I go to a steakhouse, one of the few places where I'm still offended is when a steakhouse puts pictures of cows on the wall. It's like, wow, why are you doing, why? So, okay, so self... Well, this is kind of like, you know, like we always see, you know, especially when reading new age stuff and things like that, we're always getting this propaganda of just like, yeah, you know, wake up and experience, you know, you need to wake up sheeple, you know.

Yes. But then the more you do that, the more you're like, oh, this actually, you know, I don't want to be aware of the fact that I'm going to die every waking second of the day. You know, I don't want to be aware of the fact that we're sliding into some type of inevitable global catastrophe within, possibly within our lifetimes. You know, I don't want to think about humanity living as enslaved beings to bizarre, you know, technological creations. You know, it becomes too much and I think this is what Lovecraft was talking about

where he said something like, to the effect of the most merciful thing in the world is the inability of the human mind to correlate its own contents. Oh, wow. Yeah, right. I mean, this is in the Bhagavad Gita when Krishna reveals his universal form and Arjuna says to Krishna, can you please just go back to being your normal forearm? Because this fucking massive thing you just showed me, I don't want, I can't deal with it. And yet, and so, but this is the occult, isn't it?

It's the process of overcoming that fear, right? The fear of accepting reality as reality truly is, not as the part of you that's deceiving yourself wants to make it. So I think that D and Kelly make a really fascinating study of this because D actually in this dynamic played out in their relationship because D is your kind of quintessential like Reddit fedora guy where he's hyper-rational. He's, and even though he had studied the minutiae of the occults

and mathematics in Greek and Latin and Kabbalah and all this stuff for decades and was the most knowledgeable person in England on this, he had five times the books of Cambridge and Oxford and all this. But at the same time, he couldn't, you know, he couldn't, he couldn't get out of his own way. He was too rational. He could not actually see anything or make contact with spirits. It just didn't work. So he had to employ scryers who were these kind of unhinged, itinerant people

who were, you know, Kelly was half D's age and alcoholic, overweight, was probably mentally ill, you know, was a criminal, all this stuff. You know, he was, had been accused of necromancy and trafficking with demons, which he had actually done and all this stuff. So he's this very shit character, but he could do it. He could see these realities. And so they formed a working partnership, which really is the way that magic is best done. I think it's best done in groups, but...

You don't think it can be done as an individual practitioner? Oh, absolutely, absolutely. Parts of it seem to work better with when you have more than one person. But that's, that's neither here nor there. I think that the, but D and Kelly, once they made contact with the angels, I mean, D was, he thought, you know, I'm, you know, basically his view was I'm smarter than everybody. So I'm going to, you know, the only people left that I have to learn from

are the angels themselves. They're really going to tell me what's going on. This is so wild, man. It is too, I don't mean to go back to an earlier point, but it is so wild to me that we are continuing this cycle in our attempt to create a power for a strong AI. It is, you know, because what is, D wants to communicate with a higher intelligence. In this case, it's angels, right? But we want to communicate with a higher intelligence.

In this case, we call it an artificial intelligence, which is a hilarious word for it. And yet still it's, we want to talk to the angels. This is, seems to just be built into human beings. Our language for describing our attempts at communicating with these beings has massively changed, right? Like now the way we talk to the angels is with a large hadron collider, you know, or with like these, with, you know, incredible scopes and tools that we have to peer into the depths of the universe, but still it's fucked, man.

And the fascinating thing with that is that all of these things you're talking about, like science itself comes out of D and not just D, but the alchemists and the hermeticists and the neoplatanists and the people who are trying to do the occult. There's a straight line continuum from them to here. It's all the same impulse, right? But that's been kind of covered up by his, you know, they don't teach you that in high school because it's so out there. They don't like it. They don't like it.

When you look into Isaac Newton, for example, and you realize that like Isaac Newton was like studying the temple of Solomon, hair filled with mercury, crazy, a crazy, you know, occultist, you know, for some reason it's like people who don't want to admit that we were monkeys at one point. Like hardcore scientists don't seem to like the fact that the roots of science go deep into the alchemical laboratories of people like John Dee, who was hanging out with lunatic alcoholics talking to angels. Right. It drives people crazy to even hear about that.

But at the same time, I think that we've lost a lot because, you know, it's been fascinating for me to study people like Dee and Newton. I mean, Newton and Dee basically have the exact same way of seeing the world. It was the renaissance scientific model is very consistent. These people are not outliers, you know, they're particularly smart, but they're in a part of a tradition, which is essentially seeing the universe as the mind of God and therefore seeing things like math and science and optics and basically seeing that everything is one thing and what we perceive to be, you know, there's not a split between scientific reasoning and spirituality.

We're just studying the universe. That's really what it is. And so they're all in this tradition. But and I think that we've lost that. And I think that that's to our great loss, particularly with things like AI. And I think if you look at all of, you know, many of the great spiritual teachers, particularly of the 20th century, whether it's Manly Hall or Ananda or people like this, have been saying this thing to us over and over again, which is humanity's capacity to create technical technological wonders is far outpacing its wisdom and its ability to handle it.

And things like the atomic bomb or AI, you know, I can't think of a much more dramatic demonstration of that. Yeah. So we need the spirit. We need the soul. Yeah. When like science, when humanity leaves science, you just, you just have this mantis, this thing that's just manipulating matter with no thought at all. And this is one of the things that I love about magic. And I think we talked about this on the phone briefly, but I'm reading this book. Oh, I stopped reading it, but by LFS Levi. Is that how you say his name, Jason?

I mean, yes. Yes. LFS Levi. And how I just loved, how I love how in these grimoires, there's inevitably some warning about the dangers of exploring this particular process and the respect that you need to enter into the practice with. This is somewhat even in Chogum, Trumpa and Eastern teachers too. And this creates a feeling of like, you know, be careful. This is not, we're not fucking around here. This is real.

And yet in science, people seem to just not have any care at all about, you know, I, and this just popped up on Reddit. WTF this like decapitator for mice. I don't know if you've seen that. Have you seen that? I don't know if I want to. It just, it looks like a, it's like a little plastic ice cream cone that you can shove the mouse into and its little head is at the end. And then in that play, and it's shoved into this little plastic ice cream cone. You can inject it. You can decapitate it. And, you know, this is a thing that's like on some scientific website just on sale, you know, because like at some point or another example,

I was having this conversation with someone and they were like, dogs do not feel love. Dogs do not feel love. They could never feel love. They just want food. And like, you know what I mean? Have you ever spent time with a dog? Yeah. It's like, what the fuck? What are you, what kind, you have a shitty dog is all man, you can't judge. But again, that kind of like mantis like, I don't even mean insult praying mantises, but that kind of insectoid emotionless mechanistic view of the universe is so disastrous. Yes.

Don't get, I was, I was going to send you this video clip, but I didn't want to mess with you too hard because it, you know, sometimes, sometimes like people will send me clips and I'll be like in a certain state of mind. And it's like, I'm really not the right time to see that. Right. It was a fully automated AI meat processing plant or it was just like this, this huge factory, just like processing like carcasses, you know, there's no people in it. It's just machinery. It's like our stomachs. It's like our stomachs. Oh my God. Yeah.

It's like watching this like HR guy or Francis Bacon vision of the future of please, please send it. Yeah, no, because that's what will happen. You know what? It's one day where you're going to, when you walk to the park, you're going to try to ignore the humming of the master drone as it descends and carries away a child and drops it into a chute in some kind of factory where the child is processed. You know, organs harvested eyeballs harvested. But, but, but it's like probably the AI will be like, do not worry, we will retain, we will save its memories. We will replace the child with an child that is indistinguishable from the meat child that we used for experiments. You should be honored.

But anyway, it's so frightening. So, so yeah, like, sorry, I think that like, but just going off what you said, I mean, you said that, you know, magic is, you know, they're not always warnings that's people are said. It's, you know, it's dangerous to mess with. But you know what? I also think it's dangerous not to investigate it because I think that, you know, it's dangerous to not have a knowledge of the spirit or yourself or the spiritual world. It's dangerous to, you know, it's like, yeah, like it's dangerous to write a, you know, it's dangerous to learn how to ride a bike. It's dangerous to learn how to, it's dangerous to go outside. You know, because you're going to meet some people who are cool and some people who are like totally, you know, trying to rip you off and take advantage of you.

Right. And it's the same way with the spiritual world, if you want to call it that or the astral world. It's like, but you can't understand the difference until you've experienced it, until you have experience of what works and what doesn't. So I also think that, you know, it's dangerous not to engage in these things. And I think that our culture, the fact that after the industrial revolution, after the birth of modern science, you know, that our culture just slammed the door on these things. I think that that's also a failing. I think that's also dangerous. It is.

I mean, it's, it's, it kind of reminds me of what when Terrence McKinnon said he feels sorry for people who've never taken mushrooms, that he looks at people who've never taken a psychedelic in the same way he might look at someone who died having never taken a psychedelic. He died having never had an orgasm or never had sex or, you know, like a person who never, because it's such an essential part of being a human. And the theophany or whatever you want to call it, that state of awe and dread and fear that comes when you will, when you enter into some magical ritual. My experience with the actual magical ritual is limited to, I don't know, three or four real real ones and three. And then the reason I can, those three are so frozen in my mind, you know, as terrifying. And why was it terrifying? You know, because it's the sense of like pushing through something like, like, you know, the way I would do it, you know, again, probably the way you do it is would be way, way more. I mean, I'm sure you've seen, I'm sure you've done some stuff, man, seen some stuff.

But so when I would do it, the times I have done it, it's the feeling for me of a presence being in the room that isn't me anymore. That sense of being watched or a palatable sense of a tension in the air that wasn't there before, a feeling of like, I don't know what that is. And then. Well, it's a spirit manifesting. That's what it feels like. And that's scary. Because when that happens, it's no longer like one of those Ouija board shows, you know, like it's the same way as though you've opened your door and someone has walked into the room. And then it's like, fuck, are you going to leave?

Like, what did I just, you know, that it's that sense. But then there's also the feeling of instinctuality about it. Like, oh, this is something I kind of know how to do. And then then there's the, at least for me, and maybe this is going back to our own self deception. In, in, in these moments, I have gone into a kind of amnesiac state where like, on the other side, it'll be like, what the fuck did I do? You know, like there was a moment in there of like, I don't know what that was. And then of course, the next part of it that's terrifying is when the result happens. And then, and now you're dealing with a world where it's like, wait, what the fuck?

Not only did I do a thing and now here is an immediate result. You know, and then you're dealing, now you're in a world where you have no long, you can't deny it because it's too perfect. And it happens, you know what I'm talking about, right? All of that, my reaction is, it's scary. It's scary. It always reminds me of, you know, the magical consciousness is just such a strange, you know, it's such a strange, and exactly what you're saying, very familiar, you know, way because it's very, it's a, it's very strange, but it's also essentially how we thought when we were small children, you know, it's the same type of logic,

you know, where we're interacting with imaginary friends or taking kind of strange ritualistic actions because you think they're going to make something happen. But it always reminds me of like, Twin Peaks when they go into the Black Lodge. We've got like a little man from another place walking around, like that weird way that David Lynch has spirits, like just saying like really strange and like meaningless things. Like it always feels kind of like that to me. That's a, I've always thought Lynch must do some kind of practice. I mean, he calls it a lodge, you know, like he clearly does something.

Well, that was all, well, David Lynch is a transcendental meditation guy, but all that was Mark Frost, the screenwriter who was hardcore into theosophy and put all this theosophical stuff into Twin Peaks. What? No way. I thought that was all Lynch. Holy shit. No, no, no, no, it's Mark Frost. Wow.

Oh my God. That's a great writer by the way. I recommend because he wrote some novels too that are really good. Oh, beautiful. I'll check it out. Hey, let's get back to John Dee. Okay, I want to talk about, you know, speaking of rituals and stuff like this. It is best, how do I say this?

Can you describe what one of these rituals might have looked like? Can you describe to me? Yeah. The room described the like, just as clearly as you can. I want to be able to see one of these rituals in my mind. So they were actually incredibly simple, which is kind of paradoxical because the material they got was so complex, but the actual rituals they were doing were much, much more simple

than what you normally see in convoirs. It had much more, it was closer to prayer, but so John Dee had a house named called, excuse me, he had a house in a town or a suburb of North West London called Moorlake, which I visited this summer. It was very cool to see it. It's right on the 10th.

So he had this large, large, you know, large house in a quiet suburban neighborhood by the river, you know, very tranquil environment next to a church. And, but it was a large house. He had a big family, he had a wife, and I think by the end of his life, he had something like nine kids. So there were several kids running around

and then Kelly was there and Kelly's wife was there and then they were serving. So it was a big household. There were a lot of people there. John Dee had a study where he set up the scrying table or a scrying ball, and Kelly would basically go into John Dee's study and they would close the doors.

They had the two heavy doors, but it would be during the day. Wait, I'm sorry, a scrying table. So it's an, the entire table is this like black reflective surface. So the angels, as the sessions progressed, the angels gave them instructions on how to build what is essentially the most complicated

Ouija board you've ever seen. It's this gigantic three foot by three foot table with sigils all over it and wax seals and aluminum engraving. And it's this incredibly complex thing. This is called the Anokian spirit board, right? Well, it's called the Holy Table of Practice. Oh, the Holy Table of Practice.

Cause I've heard that like the drummer of Tool as one of these things over is like drum set or something. Could be a rumor. He may. Well, so he has the sigillum, I think, which is one specific part of that. It was, and that's just a wax, a wax seal about the size of a pie plate.

And on top of, so, but you set all this up, that part goes on top of the table and then a small scrying ball about about an inch or two inches or a black mirror goes on top of that. And so all of this stuff is essentially to support the crystal. And they didn't start out with that stuff. This is insane, man. Okay.

I just Google searched Holy Table of Practice. What? What? That is crazy. Okay. Okay. Keep going. Sorry.

So angels had instructed them. Yes. So the first one or two years or maybe three years of these sessions were just the angels telling them how to build this thing. Wow. And, but they started off with just a scrying ball essentially, and they would do it in daylight.

John Dee was very into optics and the study of, which is the study of telescopes and mirrors and that type of thing. So he'd been obsessed with this for a long time. But they would, so they would scry, you know, so they scry in a busy house in daylight. It was not spooky. It was not like a hammer horror thing.

And they would usually have, have light daylight reflecting into the, into the scrying ball. Hey, listen, man. I'm sorry. I'm looking at what Holy Table is scrying right now. I don't care what time of the day you're doing that. That does not look not spooky.

Like if I, it's intense. Do you have one of these, Jason? Yeah, I made one. I made one. It took me about a year. Wow. Okay, go ahead. So they're sitting in, it's in the day.

Light is shining through the window into this crystal. Yes. And, and, but essentially there, as far as ritual went, it would basically be John Dee with Neil. He would pray at length. He would confess his sins to Christ. It was very extremely Christian in nature. And he would essentially growl.

And this is a standard feature of medieval and Renaissance magic is, is sanctification, which is the humbling of yourself before God. Wow. And so he would basically get on his knees and pray, you know, at length, you know, you know, I, John Dee, I'm a poor mortal sinner. Please look kindly upon me. And, and if I am seen to be fit,

then perhaps you would send one of your angels to further instruct me and how to be, you know, how to better live in, in your holy church. Beautiful. And, but, but you can see his speeches. They were long and at length, you know, extremely long and, and so on. And, and if you've ever done this type of thing, if you've ever, even if you've ever been prayed in church, or you sincerely prayed even outside of the context of ritual,

you know, it's extremely consciousness altering. You know, it really does something to your sense of yourself. You know, even to humble yourself and to put yourself in a subservient position is so important. And it's often missed in modern magic, which is so kind of like egoic and self-centered. All right. So he would do this and then, and then Kelly would,

and then he would, so then he would just directly petition and say, please send an angel. And then Kelly would enter a trance and begin scrying in the ball and say what he was seeing. And John Dee would write it down. And usually the sessions would last, you know, 20 minutes to an hour, and they'd usually do them once or twice a day. And they'd take breaks in between and things would get, you know,

and like things would happen, like chaos would happen, or Kelly would start to lose his nut. So, so there's long breaks in the sessions, but they basically did this from 19, or excuse me, from 1581 to about 1587 consistently. Holy shit. And, and, and, go ahead, sorry. And, and so there's, there's, you know,

probably about a thousand pages of records of what they wrote down. What, what is that? What are the topics that these angels felt they needed to talk about with John Dee? So the angels were saying, here's the thing, right? They, they, they weren't friendly. Or they were friendly, but, you know, they were very Old Testament, what's put it down. I mean, basically they, essentially their message was,

the end of the world is at hand, you know, the antichrist is assumed to be born the second coming as a, as a hand, and the world is awash in its sin and its fallen nature, and everything has fallen from the grace of God and must be rectified and must be, you know, it was, it was very like unhinged street creature. And, and, and so, so most of those sessions are them, you know, lashing both Dee and Kelly for their sins. And they're, you know, it's clear that the angels,

even though Dee is probably the most intelligent person in Europe at this point, it's clear that the angels see him as a, you know, a convenient, but often hard to discipline dog, you know, they just look like lower animals to these beings. And so there's lots of comedic sections where Dee and Kelly are just kind of stumbling over the cells and they don't know what to do. They don't know what to say. And they're like asking for money.

And the angels are like, what are you, you know, we're giving you the secrets of the universe and you're asking us for money. What are you talking about? And then Kelly asked Kelly asked to borrow money from the angels at one point. It's, it's funny. It's extremely comedic. It's just like these two, it's all of a sudden turns into like three stages, you know, because these two guys are just so outclassed by these beings.

What are the angels? What is the response when you've been, I mean, you've been summoned into a room by these monkey descendants? How does an angel respond to how would you borrow money from an angel? Well, they're constantly just losing their cool. They start off, they show up and they start, they start, they start elaborating these long, beautiful passages, which are, you know, the language is just, you know, as Crowley later said, you know,

it's, it's on par with Milton or the Bible. It's just beautiful, this beautiful language. But then Kelly then, but then Dean Kelly or just like, you know, can you hold on a sec? We need to have dinner, you know, or like, you know, like they're asking constantly asking for money and all this. And they're constantly, and so the angels just get more and more fed up as these sessions go on. Wow.

And they're just, they're, they do lose their patience very quickly. Holy shit, man. That's so, have you, have you ever contacted any of these beings before? Have you, you've clearly spent some time working on the implement that you, the tools, have you had success in contacting any of these angels? I've definitely done a lot of, this is interesting because I wrote, I wrote about this, I've written about this before. There's a book called Ultra Culture Journal, which is on Amazon,

where I wrote about some of my experiences with Anokian. And I would say yes, I think that my experiences with this stuff are, it's just really weird. And my experiences have not been similar to Dean Kelly's. They've been very different. So, but it's very, it's very weird is probably the best way I can put it. Weird. It's very hard.

It's very, you know, there's a real current of, you know, I gave a presentation on this recently in Seattle and I was talking about Anokian. And the difference between Anokian magic and other types of magic is, you know, a lot of people get into magic with this idea that they're going to use it to get things or they're going to, you know, they're going to do a ritual to get a job or a girl or they're going to become this charismatic person or, you know, whatever reason people have for getting into this stuff. Yes.

And the grimoires promise you all these things. Yes. Anokian has one function, it seems, which is to destroy you completely. Why? Because it's the point of Anokian is destroying the individual ego, you know, in the same way that hardcore meditation or hardcore psychedelic experience or, you know, but the destruction of the ego acts accessed through the fire in Brimstone and the Old Testament. God.

So it's something, it's special. Were there words that you heard or did you see a thing? Was it just feeling? Well, it depends on the ritual. It's, I think the best way to describe it is, you know, entering an altered state of consciousness and experiencing kind of a trip. Do you feel, do you feel like it's a private matter that you don't want to discuss? Is it private?

For the most part, for the most part, I mean, I've talked about it a little bit in my books. But also, I think that I tend not to like to talk about specific rituals also, because I don't want to, I would rather people try things themselves and come to their own conclusions than kind of like pregame them. Right. And kind of like give them something, because I've noticed with myself a lot too, where I'll do something and then I'll think I've experienced something and then I'll go back and I'll realize it's something that I read previously.

Right. And so things can blur and it's good to get like, it's good to get like a good, you know, close to experimentally viable conditions as possible. I got you. Yeah. You know, but sometimes I think though when you, so yeah, you have an experience and then you like, then you realize like, oh shit, I saw that in Night Breed or whatever, you know, like, I saw that in a movie.

That's not really me. That wasn't real. But sometimes what I think. Oh, sort of. Sorry. Go ahead. Well, no. Yeah.

It feels like the mind. Okay. So like, like the mind when it comes into contact with the unknown, it uses symbols that are known. Yes. Right. So in that way, your mind is like grabbing the closest thing it has to articulating the contact, which is why you will experience things that you may have seen in a movie, but

that doesn't invalidate it. It's just, that's what your mind, that's the closest to your mind. That's like, you know, if I'm, if I've got a palette of, you know, colors, I'm gonna, I can paint something, but I can only paint using the colors that I have, you know. Right. So, yes. Exactly. Yeah.

I mean, you're having, you're having an experience. You're having a heightened experience in your own nervous system, but your, your own nervous system is contacting, you know, a new part of the brain or a new experience or whatever you believe these things actually are. Are you afraid? The jury's out. Do you, or is the jury, is the jury out for you, Jason, still? I think it depends on the day.

All right. I think that I would say at this point in my life, I think that there are, so the only, so for me, let's see, what's a good way to put this, for me, the question of the objective reality of what we would call spirits and the, or other beings and the objective reality of existence itself for the same question. Does that make sense? Yes. So, it's like, you know, within the, within the bounds of my own experience, yeah, this

stuff is absolutely real, you know, without a doubt. Yeah. But, but then you have to ask, okay, what, what, you know, what, but how much of what we actually perceive is real at all anyways. All right. You know, it's all, it's still a part of our sensory input. You know, if you read philosophers like Bishop Barkley or David Kuhn, they're based or, or even later on in, in a way of Wittgenstein, or they're saying, it's like, you know, you,

you really don't contact anything outside of your own sensory field at any time. The thing that you're seeing right now is just your brain's representation of something from a sensory organ. It doesn't mean it's real. It's just that you're, the jelly, you know, the gelatinous mass that you happen to be in this time and space is interpreting sensory input in a way that allows it to survive. Right. It doesn't mean it's actually objectively real, you know, and it's the same way with,

you know, the heightened states of consciousness or rastral things or virtual reality or anything. It's like, it's still you, it's still your nervous system. So, so that's when we start to get into the realms of ontology and philosophy and all that. But I think practically speaking, you know, is this stuff real? Yeah. Yeah. I mean, that's where I'm at with it too is, is, and it is like some days I do, I just think, oh, you're fooling yourself, man, just to blur a chaos and your brain's like desperately

trying to make up some bullshit just to ease the suffering of existence or something. But then when the experiences come, you realize how just ridiculous that rationalization or that form of rationalization is when, when you are really in the presence of a thing that is way smarter than you, way, like so much smarter than you and you're, and it's not you. That is, Well, even if it's a part of you that you don't normally access because you're in the social trance that tells you that you don't have access to it.

Right. But even if it's just a part of you, that it, you know, even if there's even if just like, let's say that creating, you know, let's say that creating ritual conditions, like setting up a room to do a ritual and putting yourself in the mind frame and putting on whatever clues you do, whatever it is that gets you there. Let's say that you're just tapping a part of you that you normally don't. Okay. Well, that's pretty fricking awesome right there.

Sure. You know, because now it's like, well, great. Well, now you have a way of, and maybe you could even simplify it once you understand what it is. Maybe you can simplify it down to a phrase or, or a gesture that gets you there. But man, if you can get yourself into, you know, what's, you know, what might more, more rationally be called the unconscious mind in the way that an artist does when they're painting or an athlete does when they're in peak performance states, man, even that's

pretty fricking awesome. You know, Absolutely man. Absolutely. And this is, you know, there is a precedent for this in, in, in, in just the normal developmental process of a human being. Because do you remember, I don't know if you remember this, you remember like when you first found out that there was this thing called an orgasm that could happen to you?

Do you remember that? A glorious day involving an ex, an early X-Men comic, I think, but we won't go there. There you go. Yeah. Yeah. You know, we that, but there was a time when I was a kid and like, I remember hearing, you know, you can come like you can come, there's an orgasm you can have. I'm like, it's something you've never experienced, but you hear that you can.

And then when it finally happens, you're like, what the fuck? That is pos, this is a possibility. This extreme state of pleasure is a possibility. So in the same way, why, why do we think it stops there? Why? Oh, absolutely. Yeah. I think that's, I, that's pretty.

I think I, I've thought about it in, in those terms a lot, actually. That's really interesting. And I think that it's totally, it's such a valid comparison. And I think yoga is similar to, I mean, like, I don't know if you've done Pranayama at all. I've, I've dabbled in it, but I don't understand how to do it. I mean, you could explain it to me a little bit because all it knows. It really helps to have somebody show you in person, which is because it, because you

can, you can mess yourself up if you do it wrong. Really? But if you get really good at it, you know, if you, if you spend a year or two practicing it and you get really good at it or you get a high one capacity, man, it's like, you can trigger like heroin experiences in your brain, you know, for free at the drop of a hat, you know, and you can do things to your nervous system and not just Pranayama, but, and that's one of the reasons why I'm interested in all this stuff. It's like, you know, I like getting high in weird ways, you know, right?

So, like, you know, so Pranayama or neuro linguistic programming or, you know, Sufi dancing or, you know, whatever or, or rituals, like we're talking about. It's not just the spooky thing. I mean, like there's all these techniques for doing essentially what you're having and triggering these, you know, intense, strange, ecstatic and bewildering experiences within your own nervous system. Wait, I don't understand how NLP could trigger these experiences. I must not understand neuro linguistic programming because I thought that was more of a social

tool of like manipulation or something. I didn't, but how do unfortunately, this is how people use it because people always use things for the most selfish reasons, right? But if you really study NLP, I mean, you can, NLP knows is you can get yourself into, it's just stripped down magic in a way. It's magic without all these ritual tools and, and extra robes and all this window dressing. You know, it's, it's a way of using language and the body to directly get yourself into hyped up states of consciousness.

Does that look like, I mean, what, what do you talk to yourself or how does that? Well, usually it's one person talking to another, you know, somebody guiding, guiding somebody into that state. Whoa, huh. Interesting. Had no idea. Yeah. Wow.

So these people would use it for this like dumb pickup artist reason, which is just, you know, embarrassing. Yeah. Because people never use magic for that kind of stuff, right, Jason? No one's ever used magic for that. I haven't since I was a teenager. Well, yeah, but that's when you, it's a, I mean, one of the great mistakes you can make is to try to use magic for that purpose.

That's a real, that's a surefire way to fuck your life up, man. Well, it's, well, not fuck your life up. I mean, it, but, but, you know, to have a mistake and learn from it. And I think that, that, but it's like, it's like the same thing, at least my view of these things, you know, it's the same thing with NLP or magic or, you know, these people who are like, oh, like, I, what if I can just get somebody to like me and, you know, they start, they approach these things in a manipulative way, but pretty soon you figure out, it's like,

that's not really how the universe works. I mean, the way the universe works is like, if you can turn yourself into an awesome person using these things, then people will just be naturally attracted to you. Right. You know, you don't need to force something. How sad that people forget that. Very simple truth. Isn't that the saddest thing that people try to like polish the mask, you know, or they try to

like rework the very shallowest part of their self and, and, and without even gazing in at the, like, the, the hornet's nest inside of them and, like, it's such a sad thing to me that that, that's, that, I guess it's just easier, right, to like, it's easier work if you think, yeah, all I have to do is put on a different mask and people like me, you know. Well, you think it's easier, but it's actually not. Right. It's actually, it just is a hornet's nest as you say, but, but, you know, it's a developmental stage.

People go through it and then they, they learn and then they go on to the next thing, you know, people are processes. Hopefully, hopefully they don't, they don't get stuck there. Do you foresee a time in our, in our future? Do you see, do you think we have a future? No. Do you see a, Oh man.

Do you foresee a, Here we go. Do you foresee a time in the future where there will be a renaissance with this, these kinds of practices are a place where technology and these things merge. When you're describing this Anokian, what do you call it, a practice? What's it called? The Anokian spirit table or what's it called? Yeah.

Yeah. One thing that came to mind right away is like, man, someone needs to build one of these in virtual reality. And if it like, I, because whenever I would go into VR, I haven't set it up in my house here, and I would go into, into tilt brush, which is a painting program. I would make these very rudimentary attempts to build a ritual chamber inside of the VR space. But I'm so clumsy when it comes to painting that I could never pull it off. It always just looked ridiculous.

But do you, do you think that if we built an Anokian chamber inside of VR, it would be as effective as building one in your house? Well, then the question becomes, how do you have the visions? Because you're staring at a computer screen and the computer screen is not just going to generate something out of your imagination. So what is the computer screen? What's a computer screen? I mean, if you, because you're looking into,

you're literally looking in, I mean, this is why they call that show black mirror. I mean, when you're looking at VR, you're staring at a black mirror. That is a, that's when my computer's off, it's a black mirror. So you would shut it off after doing a ritual in VR? No, I mean, I think that like what you would be gazing into, I don't know for sure. But when you're looking into VR at all, you're staring into a black mirror that has been illuminated with light.

So, you know, I don't, I don't normally, when you do a ritual, you set everything up and then you do it and then you usually close your eyes and you have like an internal little 10 minute, 15 minute internal trip. So, so I'm not really sure if you were staring at a, I mean, it would definitely be cool. And I think there would, we'd have to figure out how to do it. But I think that the, that all the, all the magical props and all that stuff, like there's not really any inherent magic in them. It's just, you know, all this stuff that you see in these books, like,

like Levy or Crowley or things like that. It's just like, it's, it's ways to, or even if you study ancient cultures and things like that, it's just, it's a way, it's set in setting, as Timothy Luther said, you know? So it's a way of telling yourself, okay, now I'm going to have this experience in the same way as if you put on a suit, you're going to feel more confident in a job interview, or if you put on athletic gear, you know, you're ready to work out, it's the same way with magic. And so ultimately these things are just kind of props.

And what, what the real show is, what your, what, what your brain does. I mean, it's like a way of having a waking dream. Yes, I get it. Yeah. You kind of like, if you were to build a VR occult chamber, you're kind of like stealing the glory of like actually doing the practice. But then, you know, that being said, setting up VR and placing the goggles on and like, especially God, Jesus, why don't you build this, Jason?

Why don't you build us a fucking spirit chamber and virtual reality? That would be really cool, man. Like, I would love that. Like for a true occultist to take the, to reproduce ritual chambers from different grimoires in VR. So at least we could see it. Oh, I would love that. Hey, if somebody with a startup wants to fund me to do that,

do you know where to find me, jweave.com? So guys, listen to that. That would be really cool, man. That would be really cool. It'd be so fascinating. You know, can it be done? I don't know. Could it, would it work in the same way?

Why not? Technology is magic to me. I don't understand it. And you know, even setting up my podcast studio, every single time when I start dialing the knobs in and preparing for the conversation, I feel it as a ritual. It feels like a ritual to me. Yes. So, well, that's the thing.

I mean, the more you engage in magic and the more you do it and make it a daily practice and things like that, the more it becomes a, the more it becomes part of you and the more that you just see the world as a magical thing. And then you apply that. Once you've been trained that way of thinking, then you apply it to other things you do. You know, you see going to your job as a ritual, you see the energetic transfers and things like public speaking or whatever it is.

And so, so you begin to think, you begin to see the world as a magician, begin to see the world as a set of systems that can be worked with and played with. And, and, and, you know, you see people's social rules is essentially performed and all of this. So, so, so really what you read in these magic books with, you know, candles and for more some things like that, it's, it's, it's training wheels, you know, way, you know, and I love that approach too, but it's really what you're doing is training a way of looking at the world as if you have, as if, as if you're in

control and, or that you have agency in it and that you, you're interfacing with it as an, as an intelligent phenomenon full of systems that are, you know, pretty straightforward. Jason, every single time we have one of these conversations, my life becomes a little more magical. You're a true teacher and it's so grateful. Thank you for coming on the show. God, everything seems live again, man.

It was so easy to forget. It's so easy to forget. How can people find you? So, uh, best place to find me, my website is jlube.com, J-L-O-U-V, because in victor.com, um, definitely check out magic.me is the place to go. M-A-G-I-C-K.me, that's where I have, uh, you know, video trainings, video classes on how to learn all of this stuff. So, you know, everything we're talking about, meditation, contacting, you know,

doing, doing energy work, sort of contact spirits or, or, or, or getting into altered states, astral travel, divination, like everything, it's all there, all of it, everything that you need to get going. So, victor magic.me, and if you sign up for a subscription, uh, it's, use the code D-T-F-A description, and it'll be 3% off. Cool. And, uh, for the first month, and, uh, and that, that, like, you know, there's really, it's, it's just like we're talking about in terms of,

in terms of this experience. It's like, you can talk about this all day long, but until you experience it, you don't really know. And, and also when you experience it, you realize it's something that makes sense and you've been kind of doing all along, and then it becomes a really interesting, creative process to engage in. And, and it's, it's, you know, I love it. It's my favorite thing.

So, uh, and you're great, but you have to do it. You have to do it. You can't just think about it. Yeah, right. It can't, it's got to be experiential. If you want to dive in, dive in. We have a true magical teacher here and startup people, VR people out there. I'm telling you, that's a cool idea.

Connect with a true occultist, build some occult chambers inside of VR. That would be very interesting. More related projects. Jason, Hare Krishna. I love you, man. And I hope that we get to talk again. All right. I'm glad you're, I'm glad you're enjoying New York.

And I will talk to you again soon. I'm sure. Great. Thanks for listening, everybody. That was Jason Louvre. If you want to sign up for his class, go to magic.me and use the code D T F H. All the links will be at dunkintrustle.com. Much thanks to Blue Apron.

Go to blueapron.com slash trustle. You'll get three free meals and free shipping. And you'll seem like a god on earth when you cook for your lovers. Thanks you guys for listening. We have another great podcast coming out this week with Hamilton Morris. That'll probably be out on Thursday. I'll see you soon.

Hare Krishna. It's Macy's friends and family. Get an extra 30% off great gifts for her just in time for Mother's Day when you use your coupon or Macy's card and take 15% off beauty essentials or shop specials she'll love while supplies last plus star rewards members earn on every purchase except gift card services and fees at Macy's. Sign up today at Macy's.com slash star rewards. Savings off regular sale and clearance prices.

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