Duncan Trussell Family Hour - Karen Kilgariff

Episode Date: April 14, 2018

The co-host of My Favorite Murder joins the DTFH and we talk about spirituality, comedy, and MURDER!!!!

You've been making better decisions for your busy family for years, and now little by little, you're making decisions for yourself, like snacking a little better, going a little further, sleeping a little deeper, and we're here to make that journey easier and even more rewarding with Acme's new Sincerely Health Platform, featuring nutrition plans, prescription reminders, and more. So sign up in the Acme mobile app to earn up to $25 in grocery rewards. Visit acmemarkets.com slash health for more details. Hi, I'm Duncan Tressel. And I'm Clancy Tressel. And we're with the Duncan Tressel Family Hour podcast. Our greatest responsibility is to

serve our communities. I am extremely proud of the quality, balanced journalism that Duncan Tressel Family Hour podcast produces, but I'm concerned about the troubling trend of irresponsible, one-sided news stories plaguing our country. The sharing of bias and false news has become all too common on social media. More alarming, some media outlets publish these same fake stories without checking facts first. Unfortunately, some members of the media use their platforms to push their own personal bias and agenda to control exactly what people think. This is extremely dangerous to our democracy. At Duncan Tressel Family Hour podcast, it is our responsibility to report and pursue the truth. We understand the truth is neither politically left nor right.

Our commitment to factual reporting is the foundation of our credibility, now more than ever. We are human and sometimes our reporting might fall short. If you believe our coverage is unfair, please reach out through our Duncan Tressel Family Hour podcast website by clicking on content concerns. We value your comments and we will respond back to you. We work very hard to seek the truth and strive to be fair, balanced, and factual. We consider it our honor and privilege to responsibly deliver the news every day. Thank you for watching and we appreciate your feedback. And don't forget, you are the Christ being crucified, hallucinating your human experience, and the sorrow you are experiencing is the suffering of the Christ.

When I'm not in my plane, I'm smoking righteous bowls, getting stoned and laughing at the lies that Blitzer says. Don't you know the earth is flat and everyone is dead? You all are zombies. Your children they're enjoy to be seen the peace of gate. I know that it sounds scary, but it's really a beautiful thing. Golden bars and pepperoni, cheese and pineapple all day. And no, my scarf's not gay. It's a pizza related scarf. And here's the sonic beam of nanobots. They're in your brain and now control your thoughts. Do you want to hear a slogan? Listen to Joe Rogan. His real name is Salon McGreather and he controls the weather with his ears.

He's been doing it for years. Oh sweet friends, we have got a blazing star of a podcast for you on this Friday the 13th. Karen Kilgarith, one of the hosts of World Famous Podcast. My favorite murder is here with us today. We're going to jump right into it, but first some quick business. This episode of the DTFH is brought to you by Audible. The angel of good fortune has beamed her cyclopean eye upon you. The listeners because Audible is now offering you sweeties a free audio book with a 30 day trial membership. Just go to audible.com for slash DTFH and browse the unmatched selection of audio programs. Download a title free and start listening. It's that easy.

Go to audible.com slash DTFH or text DTFH to 500-500 to get started today. I love Audible. I've been a member forever. I get a bunch of credits every single month and those credits allow me to download audio books. Right now I'm listening to an audio book that is blowing my freaking brain right, literally blowing my brain out of my nose. I sneezed a big spray of brain all over my darling lover's face. We wiped it off. It's okay. Didn't need it hopefully, but you should check out the original Be Here Now talks, which is one of the zillions of books you can download on Audible. I'm currently listening to that. I'm revisiting Dune, which is one of my favorite books of all time. Of course, Living from the Overflow by Michael Beckwith. These are all life changing books.

And as you know, I'm one of the top athletes in North America. I love climbing glass buildings and just slithering up like a muscular, beautiful chameleon. And when I do that, I'm going to be listening to Audible. You can get a free audio book. All you got to do is go to audible.com forward slash DTFH, browse their incredible selection, or text DTFH to 500-500 to get started today. These are especially great for making love if you enjoy reading, but you don't have time to read and make love at the same time. Well, now you can. Just press play on the brother's caramazov and start making sweet love to your wife or husband or girlfriend or boyfriend or whoever or whatever it is you make love to. Audible, maybe you're bored of your

boring, trans, and let it hot air balloon trips that you've been taking. Or like me, you're an athlete and just want to entertain yourself while you free climb glass buildings. Audible is the way to go. Remember, it's audible.com forward slash DTFH or text DTFH to 500-500. Audible, make your life a trillion times better. An eternal thank you to the wonderful folks out there who have subscribed to the DTFH on Patreon. If these commercials make you feel like you just shoved your genitals into a squirming hive of bees, if these intros are exploding your heart with rage and you just want to bang your hand into something hard or shave the skin off your body or cut your nipples off or throw yourself into a meat grinder because you can't believe you got to go through the hellish

swampy murky marsh of these intros, then patreon.com forward slash DTFH is the right choice for you because you will get commercial free interviews of the DTFH and you'll get them early sitting over at patreon.com. Right now, we've got a podcast with Anthony Gesselneck. We got a podcast with David Arquette and we've got a podcast with the genius of comedy, Doug Lusson Hopp. It's all sitting there. There's a Mark DuPlas interview just sitting there for you. If you want to early access, all you got to do is go to patreon.com forward slash DTFH and subscribe and you will instantly be plunged into a swimming pool of pure sonic joy like some life boy diving into the crystalline waters of his Italian home where he's having a love affair with his father's scroll translator. You can dive in

to the glory waters of the DTFH by going over to patreon.com forward slash DTFH. We also have a shop with t-shirts and posters. Of course, there is an Amazon link that you could click on at dunkintrussell.com if you want to buy one of the many products that we talk about on this podcast, product focused podcast. All you got to do is click through that link and they'll give us a very small percentage of anything you buy. That's a great way for you to support the DTFH. Okay, enough of this damn yapping. Today's guest was a writer for Ellen DeGeneres. She's appeared on what I consider to be one of the most amazing comedy sketch shows of all time. Mr. Show, she is a brilliant comedian, a musician, and now she is the co-host of the best true crime podcast

in the world today, my favorite murder. So now everybody please shake off the darkness that Friday the 13th may have splattered all over your face and beam a radiant blast of pure glorious love to wherever today's guest may be. Everyone, please welcome to the Dunkin Trussell Family Hour podcast, Karen Kilgaran. I can count as high as 60 or 70. Yes, I can. I can get up there. You know, as I was researching you, I actually found that and I love I think you're a genius. Thank you. Thank you so much. Brilliant. But I did not. I've never met anyone who can do it. Right. No, I get it. And I do get insecure really like putting that out there. But it is fun to

say, you know, like it's an accomplishment. I can count to sometimes 80. It's something I can do. No, I know. It's just it's always been there. It feels like I'm the vessel. It's the numbers come through me. So what I've heard is like you get like the runners high from when you get up there, right? Like past 60, you start getting weird. You get at first you feel like it's that like blood sugar drop feeling where you get shaky. But then there's a surge in like the low 70s that's really hard to explain it. That's it's the drug. It's like what you get back for. Yeah. And then right when you press up against 80, it's like that's when you sing the colors. That's when your animal familiars come. They call it the Cartesian warp, right?

Math improv scares me because I'm the biggest phone. I'm like, what if he says something real? I can only do this for four more minutes about math. Shit. All I know is Cartesian. I don't know what it is. It's the best word though. That's like that's a math professor word. Oh yeah. I mean, this is like, and you know, lately I've been trying to make the podcast a little more Cartesian, right? Yeah. Oh, Fibonacci spiral. Oh, yes. That's one you can blast out there. Yeah. Isn't there isn't that a the sequence of numbers? It's a sequence of numbers. It's apparently like the it's the shape of it's like this beauty. It's like the shell shape. People are yeah, people are symmetrical. Their faces match

the fucking Fibonacci spiral. Those lucky fuckers. Those assholes. That's why do you you know, do you have you watched the notebook recently? No, I saw it in the theater. I had I no one told me what it was about. I thought it was just like a fun rom-com. My mother had just been diagnosed with early onset Alzheimer's. So I had the kind of sobbing thing at the end of that movie. But here's the cool thing. I was with my boyfriend at the time. He was super cool. I was like, I need to stay here for like five minutes because I'm losing my shit. And right as I came out of my sob, which is like kind of what that movie's for, I looked around the movie theater and there was like, I would say four little islands of criers that were still in their seats, just fucking like

wracked sobbing. Yeah. So I'm never going back to the notebook. Well, yeah, that's a tough one to revisit. Like, I can't, you know, it to this day, like any cancer or anything that pops up, it's just like, it's, it's trauma, you know, it's trauma. It is trauma. It's just basic trauma. Yeah. And it's, it's your body doesn't want to like deal with it. Fuck no. But my body doesn't want to fucking deal with the notebook. Not because of trauma. It's because of the symmetry, man. Yes. It annoys me. It's like, I'm, you mean both of those people? They're all these beautiful people humping out in the fucking wilderness, you know, and it's like, you know, mysterious jobs, like they're in these beautiful homes. It's like, what are you doing? What are they? How are you making

this dough? And then she's like painting with her shirt off. And it's like, I guess that's what they're going to do forever. These symmetrical people, those fucking, yeah, it's they, it's almost like two perfect puzzle pieces fitting together that absolutely excludes you. Yes. Like when I watch movies like that, I do get like Rachel McAdams is perfect faced. Yes. When I look at her, I'm like, Oh, that's what everyone wants to look like. Yeah. So then when I see her having a great time, I'm like, well, I guess I don't get to have that. Yeah. If you don't qualify for Rachel McAdams symmetry, you feel left out of that dimension. Yeah. It's these two statistical anomalies, or, you know, like completely on the point one percentile of like Fibonacci spiral face implants

and like, Oh, sure. Oh, sure. They met and they're having they're having a love triangle. Yes. I wish they would. I don't know. I sound like I'm a player hater. Look, if I could warp my face into some beautiful symmetrical thing, I do it in a fucking second. I feel like if I was a classic say LA hot girl, I would be the worst person. Like, remember when in the like late 90s, when supermodels, they started putting them in like documentaries and stuff, and you started hearing them talk, and you're like, Oh, no, you're the worst person. Yes. Like really shrill voices and bad senses of humor. I feel like that would be me times 1000. I'm glad you said classic LA hot girl, because you didn't exclude yourself from being hot, because you're hot. And that's cool that you

recognize that. That's really cool. Because it's like, that's a good thing to recognize. Because if because it's like, yeah. And because I don't think that's hot. I mean, like it's not up to me or whatever. But there's these beauty things that that people fall into that really start to look like, and maybe it's from living here too long. But you know, when you see like people with perfect faces, and you're like, Well, I bet she's actually 70. Because that's what everybody in Beverly Hills looks like. Yeah, you know, those like, when you get the work done too well, and suddenly it's like, you've just flipped yourself over into like the surgeons wife category, where you're you're shopping at Fred Siegel, and you wearing your daughter's jeans, and you can't let go of

your youth. Yeah, which is not attractive. Well, this is so like this concept of, I think letting go of your youth. It's interesting, you know, because it's like the problem, if you want to call a problem, I think that we're going to start facing is like we get more advanced and with medical technologies, it's, you're going to be able to just be young look young forever. And there's going to be a just like what you said, like a stigma, it's going to become stigmatized, there's going to become these two groups of people, people who are proudly aging, and people who are like, no, I got to, I'm going to, I don't have to like age. I know people like that transhumanists, they're like, it's the right thing is to extend the human lifespan. The right thing is to reverse

age if you can, why not? Sure. I mean, I can, for somebody who is I can, I can now see myself aging, I'm approaching middle age. I get I don't judge like wanting to look younger anymore the way I used to. Of course, when I was like 25, I'd be like those fucking phonies. And it's like, the only thing is you have to get the right kind of work. So you don't look like you had work. That's the best work is when you still look natural. Yeah, that's right. And I think that it's just that kind of like I have that fear is, you know, in the, you know, say 10 years ago, everyone's like fillers are the answer. And then 10 years past, fillers start floating around people's faces. The thing you think is making you beautiful is now making you look insane. Yeah.

And you, it's like your time stamp is like, you know, 2004, boom, that's the last time you were pretty. Yeah, or some or like, you look like you're trying, which is not attractive, not attractive. And it's I think probably all that being said, like the real tragedy of that is that people are missing out on this thing that can like, I know people, I go to these Ram Dass retreats. And there's women there who are in their 60s and 70s. And they are stunning. Yeah. And because they're radiating just they're glowing, they're like, and I'm not saying that in like a, oh, how like, oh, there's so stup, there's, you know, oh, this old person's view. I'm saying it's sexy. Like, there's like an authentic beauty there. And it's, and they're completely comfortable in the way

they are. And that transcends symmetry, you know, well, I call that running clean, like when you're running clean, and you, and you do that kind of, I was doing Kundalini yoga a lot, you know, I have to start again, because I loved it so much. And I have this bad habit of if I really love something, and it feels good, I will never do it again. So I, there was a woman and I believe her name was Girmuk. And she was, she was the lady that kind of ran Goldenbridge yoga. And do you know who I'm talking about? She was gonna give me goosebumps now. Oh my God, I cannot believe you just mentioned her. Is that the person you were talking about? No, I was just, this is uh, oh, this is really weird, because I was just watching this documentary and she was in it. Yeah. And she's wonderful. And she

said, don't die a student, die a teacher. And I thought she was just like really magnetic. And please go ahead. Well, you know, she's like in her late sixties. She looks like she's 35. Wow. And she, it was, this was the, the Kundalini DVD that I used to watch. She was the leader of it, or whatever. She was like, you know, doing all the poses or whatever. And part of the reason I was so into it is because I was like, if you can like clean up your diet and get a, like a good practice going, that's the skin you can have. You do not need to go to all these weird doctors or peel your fucking face off. Right. Because I was, I'm always like, I'm going to peel all the skin on my face off. Wow. And then you look at her and it looks like that's what she already did, because she's

running so clean and she's like, she's like, it's just that yoga thing. Running clean. I love that. That's a great way to describe it. That's my new goal. Running clean. Yeah. I want to go back to the thing you said about how you don't continue to do things that you love and explore that. What is that? I do the same thing, but I'm, what do you think that is? Why are we resistant to these things that make us feel so, so great? I feel like mine is the hacky thing of I kind of like grew up like a bit of a miserable, uh, like the miserable fat girl. And I think that that is my set point. So anything that goes better than that, I get real. I don't trust it. Like I get real nervous and I feel like those are almost like, it's like a special circumstance to be

in, to go like, wow, I'm proactively doing something good for myself. I, I'm making myself feel better. You know, it's just like, it's also alcoholic shit because I'm just like a died in the wool, you know, Irish Catholic alcoholic. So there's a lot of like self-flagellation and punishment for no reason. You're still drinking? No, no, no. I stopped drinking in 97. Okay. Okay. But it's in there. Oh yeah. It's, yeah. It just comes out now and all the other, you know, forms of things you can put inside yourself. Okay. Right. Yeah. Well, that's, I've thought about that, you know, because it's like when you're making those kinds of changes in your life, it's not just you that change changes, but it's your entire universe starts changing. Yeah. So it's almost like you're traveling into a

different universe and that's a scary, scary thing to do because you have to say goodbye to like a lot of stuff, don't you? Yes. Like when you stop drinking, for example, like you have to leave that universe. You have to say goodbye to an entire constant, like a galaxy of friends, potentially. Yes. You have to say goodbye to like places that you normally go for a little while at least, right? Definitely. And like hiding places, like literal and figurative, you know what I mean? Like you start having to get vulnerable, which is the thing that I was avoiding intentionally by drinking. Like I was always trying to escape any kind of real risk. So then all of a sudden I drank my way into that exact thing I was running from, of course. Isn't it always that way? Yes. Yes. For

sure. Yeah. Wow. And but this Kundalini is yoga is so profoundly powerful that sometimes when you run into that, into contact with that thing, I mean, it's always, for me, it's, it's, it's a very, a really slow, slow process for me because it's like this Jack Cornfield says, I said this last retreat, he said something like, be careful when you pray to the gods, because sometimes the gods show up. Yeah. And you don't really want that. No. You want to live in a, in a world where there, that shit isn't real. You know, you do know what I mean? It's, it's. Yeah, because your familiar role is the beggar, not the winner. Like that was, that's always my thing is like, I know exactly how to be, how to like have unrequited love. I know how to like ache across the city for somebody. I

know all those things. But like, if somebody's standing in front of me, like, Hey, let's go do something. I fucking, it's like, it feels, I've always told myself, it's the opposite of what normal people do, which is like, that's when I can't be normal. Because I don't know how to do that correctly. Because all the time I should have learned how to do that. I was drinking wine coolers, you know, in the backseat of someone's car. So it's just all that like, it's hard to not know and be like, accept that you don't know and go into a learning position for me as a person who's like, controlling fear based anxiety based, controlling fear based anxiety based. I would say, okay, yeah. And, and, okay. Yeah, I just got, I'm sorry, I keep saying this

because it blew my mind. I was reading this Pima Chodron book. She's the fucking, she saved my life like four times. She is the greatest. God, that's cool. You know, she is amazing hurts and your teacher is amazing. Chogum Trump is and this just an alcoholic, by the way. Is that true? Yeah. Chogum Trump, Trump was, he would drink, I think he drank all the way till the end. And, and, but, um, and it's an interesting thing to hear them talk about it because they're like, yeah, that's what he's like. Yeah. But she, um, one of the things she says is, um, people get into meditation thinking, I'm going to become a better person through this. Right. And what she says is like,

no, it's not about becoming a better person. It's about accepting who you are right now. Yes. And as those things that you just mentioned, and as all that, and then just being like, oh, no, no, this is what I am. Yes. I am, I go, I am an anxiety, fear-based person who avoids love right now. And that's okay. Right. This is fine. And instead of playing the game with yourself, this is the game, right? I play the game with myself. Usually it involves like, I'm going to get in really fucking good shape. I'm going to get in great shape or some version of that, always something in the future, some finish line to cross where you run past it and you're like, oh, I'm running clean now, baby. This is it. This is it. I've

done it. Yeah. And, and, and, but no, it's now this is it. Yeah. Right. Even if you're running dirty. Yeah. Well, because if you think like I, I'm never interested in people. I mean, I'm interested in people who are running clean in that way where I go like, that's the goal. And if you could only get your shit together or whatever. But when I'm around people, like that's the, you know, my heartbreak is that I, I, I only usually love stand-up comics, even though they're kind of the worst. And it's very problematic being one and then kind of being like, but I, that it's the problems that I like. It's the understanding that it's like, I know you'll know what I'm doing. You're not going to stand there and go, what the fuck is your problem? Cause you have it too.

Yeah. And it's that, you know, I think it's the flaws that attract us to each other. It's like, it's the humanity and the realness and you can't see it in yourself because to you, you're just like, well, you've been just told that that's what makes you ugly or weak or lame or whatever all your life. Yeah. Who told you that? I don't, I think this is like hard-earned being in my head against the same wall until I finally like, and also just Pima children, um, Renee Brown, who's that she is like sociologist who did the whole study on vulnerability. Like, um, I think Pima children was kind of my therapist who recommended the first, I think it was when things fall apart, that Pima children book. Fuck yeah, that's a good one. It's a good one. But then there was the,

I think it's like the compassionate heart audio series where it was the thing of doing the practice. Is it Tonglen where you, when you have a problem that you start thinking about everyone else who has the same problem and trying to have compassion for yourself and those people in the world and all that, that practice, that changed my life, I think. Trying to do that. I can't even say that I did it well. I certainly didn't do it consistently. I think I tried it, you know, for a series of months, but the practice of it of like, you can crack this, like when your own misery, whatever caused it, like has calcified around you and kind of made you stuck. Yeah. You can do a thing that changes it. It's just a hard, painful thing to do, but you can do it. Right. Which was miraculous to me.

Like, because you can't even, when you're, before that happens for the first time, you just think you're, you're going to be in an eternal prison of suffering for the rest of your life. Yeah. Yes. And you don't know what to do. Like, there's so many dumb self-help books that will be like, make a list of seven things, you know, all that shit where you're like, I'm never going to do that. And it doesn't actually work. Yeah. And you, you do that so many times that you're like, you get cynical or you get like, well, nothing works. Yeah. But if you get a little thing, that's the thing about both Kundalini yoga and like the Pima Chodron type of meditation, I would feel legitimate true change day of, which didn't happen in those other things I would try.

Yeah. That is one of the most beautiful moments in my life is when suddenly the, the teaching start converting into an actual lifting of the, of some of the darkness. Yeah. And then realizing like, whoa, you, well, it isn't bullshit. It's not bullshit. It's actually something that people developed over thousands and thousands of years and it works. Yes. It's just, you got to be able to be willing to, well, you know, this is something I'd like to talk with you about. And I want, you know, sometimes people don't really want to be healed. No, yes, I know that intimately, but, but, but, but they say they do. Right. Do you know what I'm saying? Like, it's like the, the, the people who go to the doctor all the time or something, people don't

really want to, to, to, it's attachment to the sorrow, to the darkness, to the, that feeling, because usually with comedians, what they say is I'm not going to be funny anymore if I'm not miserable. Do you agree with that? No, it's so stupid. Well, you know what? That's romance. That's like the Hemingwayization of standup comedy. Right. So it's like, and, and I liked that when I first started, because I was an alcoholic and I liked that I could fit how the world worked to my addiction. So that all kind of served me very well. And I was forced out of it by my own bad behavior, you know what I mean? By my own extremity, it like, and had to stop. And then was left basically by the side of the road, where I was just, I was just like, well, everything's fucked,

and I can't escape. Now I don't know what to do. And then I had to start going, well, there, other people are happy in this world. Yes. How are they doing it? If you really want to do it, you have to actually seek it out and try. Did you, I can remember there was a time when I didn't really believe that other people were happy. Did you, you know, I just thought, oh no, it's like a, it's, it's a, it's actually a being tricking itself. It's like a person who's like being happy, or it's, it's just, it's, they're dumb. Shallow. Yeah. It's shallowness. Like if only they knew, they have no idea. That kind of snobbish. Yeah. That's like, that's some pipe smoking bullshit right there. Yes, it is. Yes. It's fashionable cynicism. And it's a plague right now. And it's,

when you get into the presence of it, it's really, really, really annoying. And it's, it feels young to me. It feels, it feels especially like young smart people. It's a great like teddy bear when you're young smart and still totally lost and scared shitless. Right. To be able to say, the world is this, everybody is this, those insane generalizations. Yes. It is so comforting to your dumb, fear, fear filled like brain. Right. But you, after a while, my thing was I, I could do that. I wanted to blame the world. I wanted to blame my, the people in my life. It was always somebody else. Yes. But I couldn't get away from that feeling. Like it didn't matter who I blamed. I was still there with that terrible fucking feeling in the pit of my stomach. And I eventually had to

go like, once the sobriety came against my will, I had to go there. I have to do something different. Like I just can't hold on to this anymore. Does your sobriety include every all everything? No. So you take psychedelics sometimes? I can't take, or I don't take psychedelics because I, the reason I stopped drinking is because I started having seizures and I still have seizure disorder today that I have to take medicine for. So I just, I think I would get too scared. I wouldn't be able to let go and I would think, I would keep thinking, wait, now I'm having a seizure. Like I wouldn't be able to be free. I don't think. Oh yeah. No, I think that's like, I mean, one of the, that's so responsible and smart. It's just, you don't want to, it's okay.

I mean, who cares? Like what about marijuana? Oh, 100%. I mean, and that's the thing. I've talked about being sober on my podcast and I keep trying to tell people, because people come up and be like, now I'm sobered. I'm like, sorry. That word I'm using, I'm only using to alcohol. Alcohol. Because I, as my therapist, my brilliant therapist once said, everybody needs a little bit of oblivion because I would get really down on myself for smoking pot. And she was like, yeah, but you have to be able to escape at some point in time. You can't just sit there. How long have you been with this person? The therapist? Yeah. But almost 15 years. Wow. Good for you. Holy shit. I want to, I want to get a digit. She's the best. I, yeah, she's, she's so, I met with a couple other people

before. Yeah. And I had it in my head. I told my friend who was a therapist. She's like, I can't be your therapist, but I can recommend people to you. What are you looking for? And I said, I want to talk to Olympia Dukakis. I basically want to sit across. So she gave me the name of a, like kind of an older lady who had no, who had gray hair, but in no way had the Olympia Dukakis vibe whatsoever. And then I just, in psychology today has a website that you can go on and there's just an index on there. And you can put your city in and find therapists that are licensed, you know, practitioners near, near you. And I just picked the person that was closest to my house. And she is like one of my favorite people. I think that's critical to pick a therapist that's

close to your house. Hell yeah. Because your brain's going to not want to just, you won't go, you'll cancel every time if you have to drive too far to a therapist. I've been, I live walking distance so close to my therapist. And I have been between, I would say 11 and 18 minutes late to every appointment for 15 years. I cannot, I cannot show up on time. And we've talked about it and we've talked about not talking about it. And she's like, I mean, it's whatever, if you want to talk through it or, you know, it's hilarious. And it's just like some, that's another thing I have. My, when I did have a therapist, he told me the coolest thing ever. He said it's like, actually there was a time, and who knows? I mean, he was, who knows if it's real. I didn't look it

up. But he was saying like, there was a time when it was considered actually low class to be on time. That it would, that, that, that, that whole concept of being on time is just like, it's like, it's that, that's for the, you know, that's for them. We show up whenever we like. And then also, you know, and then did I love that so much. It's cool. And if you, if you think about it in terms of like, I've heard of like in tribal cultures or indigenous cultures, the idea of like even showing up, like there's just, you're like, I'll see you at this, you know, somewhere in the afternoon. Yes. And you just connect with someone in that way, like here, Jesus Christ, we're just really crucified to the clock here in this. You're crucified to the clock. You mean in Los Angeles or

in the West, you're just nailed. We're just being nailed to time and it's, it's, it's rips people to shred. It really does. Well, it's a great way to be yourself up. It's also a great way to punish other people passive aggressively. There's all kinds of things you can like kind of read into or take from it or I don't know. And my thing is that I do stuff like I, I sent an email and I just said, sorry to you, I like, sorry, I'm going to be 15 minutes late. I couldn't stop blow drawing my hair. I got, yeah. I just dip into these weird worlds where I'm like, I come out and I'm like, I'm already late. I thought I was totally on time and then I'll like hypnotize myself, but with some weird small thing. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, you're just,

it's kind of like what I really love is like when you run into people, you don't care when you're late and they really don't care. And then, and it's a great way actually to kind of test people. And, and because if, because if you show up late and somebody's just like, oh, hi, it's, and you realize like, oh, they don't, they're, they're not in the world. They're not trapped in the world of time. Some people just are. So it's annoying to them, but fuck it. I'm 15 minutes late. It's okay. Cause I, you know what I bet when people are dying, one thing they don't think about is all the times people are late showing up for something. I would hope not. That's one of the things you just forget instantly. It's like, it's one of the, have you ever heard the idea that we

all, that like you can, you only remember 10 or maybe 15% of what happens to you. And most of the time you're living in a, in a forgotten moment. Oh, that's amazing. Isn't that wild? Like most things you're just not, you don't, you're not gonna. That takes the weight off of everything. Yeah. You won't remember it. It's like most things happening, driving to this place or that place, the food you ate, the thing you did, whatever it is. It's like, you don't remember that. You don't remember much. It's like, there's the illusion that we have this, some people have photographic memory. I think that's mostly an illusion. I think that we just have this, have you ever explored memory, like really looked into it and noticed how, how, how

it's like wavering and, and, and so like, what's the word for it? Tricky? Tricky. Like when you really pull up a memory and look at it, how it's like, I'm really looking forward to when they're, when they're able to do the full download of people's minds to see the way our minds are remembering stuff, because I think it's going to be real interesting and low grade, whatever it is. Well, in the advent of the digital age, it's very funny to have lived before the internet, like a serious period of time. Yes. Because there was a time, I used to say this, a lot where it's like, you could just kind of say a fact and no one would question you. And it's just like, Oh yeah, Karen told me about that thing. And then they would only learn three

people later of like, that's completely wrong. Yes. And, but you'd, in the moment you'd never get caught. It wasn't, I wouldn't, I wasn't like a liar or anything. I would just kind of misremember or like, just slightly get a fact wrong and be like, did you hear about the thing? And I would just love the story of it. And then when, when the internet started, people just immediately looked something up and be like, see, that was actually in 1977. And that's when I was like, Oh yeah, you have to like tighten this shit up a little bit. And like, you can't just say whatever and tell people that's a fact. I interviewed someone who is a, I don't know, he just blows my mind, Will Oldham. And he was saying that they were, went on tour and that people kept Googling

shit. Like what was that person's name or what's that thing? And they had, I don't remember what the item was. They had some object and they said, well, let's make that the, I think it was a banana or something. They're like, go to the Google banana. And so they would pick up the banana and make up facts because his thing is like, how important are these facts to you that it's, it's completely taking you out of this reality down into the rectangle. Who really cares? Like, and you're treating the rectangle like it's Bible fact or whatever, you're treating it like it's, it's inarguable where that was written potentially by like a stone 23 year old. Who knows where we're getting like, I think of that Wikipedia, every time I go on to Wikipedia

for research, I'm always like, yeah, I'm gonna have to check this probably for different times. Right. Because who fucking, sometimes you'll see other articles and their exact cut and paste from Wikipedia where you're like, yeah, but who, who wrote this? Like, is it truly verified? Exactly. And that's, that's one of the big problems right now, isn't it? This is one of the big problems is that they've weaponized that and now they've essentially fragmented reality for everyone. And by they, I mean like government state agencies have somehow discovered these algorithms and ways to completely, this is Elon Musk, when he talks about AI,

I don't know if you read this, but he says it's not necessarily the robots as everyone, like the terminators that are going to kill us. It's the AI that's going to start a world war by disrupting subjective experiences to the point that everyone's paranoid and some kind of war starts. Yes. I mean, I think everyone thought Facebook and social media platforms like connected people, but I think the way, the way things have gone at least in the last, say two years, I feel like all of these rope bridges have been cut between those groups, between groups, whether it's whatever political thing you're standing on. I feel like all of a sudden you have this little machine that tells you you're right and you can find 500 people, no matter what fucking

dumb bullshit you believe in, you can find a group that's like, that's right, Karen, you're dumb shit is exactly, you go fight for it or whatever. And then so everything is about, like when people are saying like those marches are great, but they don't matter. I'm like, they fucking all, that's all that matters now because everything has become optics. Everything has become, you have to, like these, you can't argue that these people stood on the street. You can't, you know what I mean? There was four helicopter shots, but then, but you can if there's the ones where they use group shots and then people come in and go, this is from Rio de Janeiro, 1992. I remember that where they were like, look at this Trump rally and it's like, nope. And you,

so you, thank God, there's the people that are like fact checking. Now they're like, but the fact never existed in the first place. Exactly. And now, but also the problem is now that what we're getting to is the point where you don't have to get pictures from Rio de Janeiro. It's the new graphics engines are going to be able to create things that become indiscernible from reality. And that's, and that's where it becomes, and then when it's not a person making these things, but an AI making these things and then an AI that's like figured out a way to like put, dispense them based on specific viewing habits of specific people. To like basically tell you the story you're looking to hear. Yeah. To create, this is the whole Cambridge analytics thing with

Facebook that they got in so much trouble for us. All these people took this, some kind of personality test. You read about this, right? I think, well, I just, I know the general thing, but tell me the specifics. It just did a deep probe in the psyche of all these Facebook users. And then that data got sold and that data was used to help Trump get elected by analyzing someone's deep psyche. And then, so the ads you would get based on this personality profile you filled out, it was like pure, Hannibal Lecter level deep manipulation of humans. And it's just going to get more and more and more intense because when, I mean, when you get a, like, I don't know if you've ever had the good fortune and I do mean good fortune of being around an authentic con artist, like someone who's

really fucking yanking your chain, but he's like really good at it. I don't know if you've ever experienced that before. I mean, I think dribs and drabs around this town, but nothing, I did, nothing like, and where's my wallet? But you know, I think I definitely, the kind of people where, when you find out they were bullshitting you all along, you're just like, wow, I got no, none of my senses kicked up on that. And I, they usually are good. It's amazing. Yes. It's beautiful. The art of it's incredible. And when you realize that, that, that's happened to you, it's like, it's, it's, has it happened to you? Yeah, it's happened to me a couple of times. I mean, who knows? I mean, you never know. I mean, it could be, it could be happening in all of us really.

But, but so what it is, is like these people, some people get into, what's it called? There, there's a, there's a name for it. All the pickup artists use it, you know? Oh yeah. So pickup artists, of course, I mean, and this is again, maybe gonna upset some people listening and I don't care. I had this conversation with a friend of mine who was talking about pickup artists. And I said to him, well, you know, to me, the problem with what I've read about it, is that it's fundamentally based on deceit. So it's not as though you're presenting your true self to a, to a person, you're analyzing them doing a scan thinking, what do they want? I'll become that temporarily so that I can fuck them. And then that's it. I've achieved this ridiculous

goal. I've de, essentially dehumanized a person, right? And, and, and gotten into the most, their most vulnerable place. They've let me into their house and, and using these, but there's a name for it. And I can't remember it. Like, you mean nagging or like all the, you mean the, the game itself of how they do it? Yeah, the stages of it, the idea of like, oh, if I can induce a good memory in you while you're around me, then you're going to start associating me with that good memory. And then if simultaneously, I give you some object while I've induced the good memory in you, and you look down at that object, you're going to feel the good feeling you had from the good memory that you told me, but you're going to associate that good feeling with me. Are you

serious? Yeah, sure. Oh, I thought you were just talking about like, nagging and triangulation and stuff like the basic thing. Negging is also part of it because that's a way to like throw, essentially you're using like this kind of weird psychology to manipulate people. And, and so where it gets really spooky is when an AI becomes that being. Yes. And it has all of your data. A con artist meets you, looks for like tells in the way that you're acting, tries to find like, where are you broken? Where are you broken the most? Oh, that's where you're broken. Okay. Well, I know what this broken person wants. Let me give that to them. And then, but when that starts happening from with AI's and corporations, scanning you and doing that,

whoa, that's fucking nuts. Yeah, because it's pure greed. You can't ever think there's, I mean, your average con artist could be a sociopath, but most of the time they're probably just super smart. And they, they want to just kind of make money and get away with things. And they like the excitement or whatever. Doesn't mean they're like a psychopath or whatever. But if the machine is programmed to do it, they'll net, there's no checkpoint. There's no, it's like, get us our money anyway. But you know what that makes me think of? Did you ever read or listen to John Ronson's, like I listened to his audio book. And it was a thing about people who had bad credit in England. And then the other credit card companies basically that they would get on lists if you were in debt.

And the other credit card companies would go to the debtors offering them what seemed like the answer. So they just started opening more and more lines of credit to pay off the other credit. And there was a man, it happened to him. And he was so far in credit, he just killed himself so his family could have his like, you know what I mean? So they could his insurance or whatever. He had some weird plan in his head. This is the only way I can get out of this. And it was they, they absolutely targeted those people that were already in this, the worst place you can be in, which is I owe everything and I have nothing coming in. Yeah, horrifying. Yeah, horrifying, horrifying. And then, and then when you add to that,

the ability to generate CGI entities that that that seem like beautiful people who seem genuinely interested in you that you just happened to have met on Instagram, who are really talking to you for a while and you look and they've built up like a profile for the thing. And they're just talking to you, they become your friend. And they're just, you know, every once in a while, maybe they suggest a product to you. That's what they're doing now. It hasn't happened yet. Because we the right now, the, it's, I don't know, could be. I mean, in a weird way, it happens through humans. But as far as an AI doing it, it hasn't happened because what basically what I think is probably happening right now is that people are beginning to, I think the best way

to put it is social media farmers who are growing identities. So basically what would I like, if I start a profile now for a 14 year old kid named, I don't know, Danny, and then oh, and then I have an AI that begins to post it for him by, you know, scanning what's going on, what's trending. And he starts posting realistic posts so that if you went and checked him out, you'd be like, well, he's been on Twitter for five years. He posted 7,000 things that couldn't possibly be a bot, but it is a bot. It's a bot that was farmed for many, many years to grow this personality. And if you had a thousand of them, now you can start changing the way people think about things. You can start shifting trends. You can start controlling the ebbs and flows of what's in

and what's out. I think we're headed towards that place. 100%. Well, because, you know, that makes me think of is I started getting into a thing that normally I avoid. Like, I can't, for a long time, I could not stand listening to people argue about politics. It was just like, especially online, it's the, it's such a complex thing that people are trying to get down to their 140 characters or whatever. I, but I started getting really addicted to reading threads or somebody would post a thing about like, Trump did this gross thing. And then, excuse me, there would be a thread underneath where the first four people agree that it's a gross thing. The fifth person is there to say, none of you, you libtards understand what you're talking about and act like

an asshole, whatever. And then, and then the fighting starts. And in there, I always noticed there would be a person of color, be a woman or an older man, but it would be a person of color somehow that would come in to like defend Trump. And then I read the article about the bots, how they discovered like the Russian bots and all those things. And then people started learning, like if there's a series of numbers in the name, that's probably a bot, if it's, it's taking these certain stances. And if you write back and you're like, thanks, Russian bot, it'll disappear because once you like name it and everyone can see it, it'll go away. That's right. And that idea that people who are arguing about these things that in this country,

people couldn't even talk about at the dinner table. And suddenly they're all anonymous and comfortable just going, well, you don't even understand. And you're the one that doesn't understand. And then a person comes in who symbolizes what you think you're defending or attacking or whatever your thing is. And they're the ones that go, no, actually, it's like this. That manipulation, because you don't know who that person really is. It could have been Putin himself. But it's like, you're like, Oh, well, this clearly educated black man who's over 50 has come in to say that actually this is fine. I need to rethink my stance. That's fucking insane. But because it's, it's Twitter, it's fake. Everything's fake on Twitter.

But we don't know that. And psychological warfare. And it's a brand new weapon. And it's a, it's a weapon that's so amazing because it's, it's shifting interior landscapes. Like, you don't see the destruction, you don't see the fragmentation or the confusion. You just see a bunch of, you just get to the point where like, I don't trust much of anything that's coming out of the internet. I don't know. I have no idea. I have no idea. But still, it's the very beginning of it. You know, this is the, this is the, do you believe that that's shit about the singularity that we're headed towards a singularity? I mean, we, I've, I don't know what we're headed towards, but I do know this. And this might just be the experience of aging and being self aware.

Things are going, things are evolving much faster, like in a way that I can track. It's like, old people know how to be on Twitter now, whereas like when the internet first started, you know, it was like, my mom would turn, we'd turn on the computer and she'd go, it's broken because she would do one thing wrong or she wouldn't be able to find an icon or whatever. It's broken and walk away because that was her generation. It was like, these things are not for us. My dad now texts me constantly and like that, because he loves, he loves Apple. He loves the idea of that innovation. He loves that newness and he loves, you know, modern life. He wants to be a part of things, but there was a time where he wouldn't get fucking cable. We couldn't, we

couldn't have Atari. Like he was always like, you don't need that. We don't want that in the house. That's not whatever. It's like everybody is suddenly we're all like, yes, the phone is in my hand all day long and no one talks about it anymore. Whereas when like cell phones first came out, it'd just be like, oh, and she's staring at the phone all day again. Now it's standard fare. Standard fare. And because of it, you are one of the most successful podcasters living on the planet. Did you ever think about that? Like how this technology has, your life is, your life has been so transformed by this, hasn't it? Yes. Very quickly. Like in two years, very, very quickly. Like I remember when it happened to y'all and just like, wow, I was so blown away by it. And

you know, I'm sad to say I felt jealous and like, which is just like really lame. I think that's standard. I think that's all of us all the time. We've all moved here to get basically the same thing. Yeah. And anytime someone gets something, it feels like now I can't have it. But it's like, what am I, what am I competing with a hilarious show about murder? We're all competing about everything. It's like, I think that's the comics mindset, because we're all the same and we're all kind of like in this weird group. You know what I mean? Oh yeah. Yeah, you're, you're, you're, yeah, it's just, I mean, I, I've been jealous of every single person I've met since I moved here for fucking 25 years straight. It does, you could get a part

on the thing that I think is a piece of shit. And I'm like, like, that's just this weird, it's like, cause when you're leading with your ego always in this fucking town, how do you not do that? Right. Yeah. Okay. Well, cool. Well, thank you for that. I mean, that's good to remind you. Jealousy is just a part of existence. It's good. It comes and it goes, but- It means that this is important to you. But, but, but, but for some reason, I didn't listen. And so, um, and, and, um, and sometimes I say to myself, I don't want to listen to other podcasts because I don't want to get shifted by the podcast. I don't want to, I don't want to change for the podcast. And I think that's really stupid. But my, my girlfriend, she loves your podcast

and she started playing it for me. And man, it, it, it is so good. Thank you. You guys are, and you know this, you know this already. I mean, people are like getting tattoos and stuff here. People, people are, um, going to die with, with slogans from your podcast tattooed on their body. Does that ever freak you out? Um, definitely. I mean, I was, first of all, thank you. That means the world to me. I think you're brilliant. I love this podcast. Thank you. Um, I really go to this podcast sometimes when I want to be like, I want to be feel smarter and feel like I'm trying to do something. So it means a lot to me. Thank you. And you exactly what you're saying, I do that constantly. I, I, I'm very careful of what I take in because I don't, I'm afraid I'm going to copy

people. That's my worst fear is like, I'm going to love it so much. I'm going to just start saying, I do it all the time. And I'll realize it later. I'll be, Oh, that's blanket patches joke that I just basically restated because I love it so much. Yeah. So I, I do that a lot. And when something's popular, then I'm just like, it's not for me. Like I try to play like high queen bullshit. I'm the queen of Spain and nothing's good enough for me. And I reject this out of hand where, and, and there's always like younger people that are like, I think you'd really like it where it's like, fuck you. You don't know me. Um, I'm so guilty of that. It's, I think that's also the generate in the nineties. Like in that Kurt Cobain era, I got, I got, I really got worked by that whole concept

of like, don't be a sellout. I, it was ingrained in me in the weirdest fucking way that does not apply to real life anymore. And I'm like, it's like, I'm trying to please the band members of pavement still to this day. Why? What it doesn't, they, they're awesome. They have the best sweaters. They did it right. I am still terrified of David Cross and Bob Odenkirk. Yes. Yes. Terrified. I know. Terrified. And you were in the core of that group. You were, you were in that thing, which was a huge movement in comedy. You know, it's funny and I, yes. And I feel like great and lucky about it. It's the coolest thing. It's the coolest thing to have been a part of that. But what's funny is like the length of time it ex, we were doing it and that, that was our real time experience.

When that was over and I went off and I worked at Ellen for five years, I was out of comedy entirely. I was out of everything entirely. And when I came back out, it literally was like, when I left the building and returned to comedy, that cult aspect of it had started and I didn't know. So like, I started having these experiences where I'd be walking down the street in like three 25 year old dudes would be like looking at me and I'd be like, what the f**k is going on? And I finally, one of them was like, we just want to say, you know, Wally P. Doyle's widow or whatever thing they would want to reference because they love that show so f**king much that, that I got the benefit of all the f**king brilliance that David and Bob put together. I was getting a slice of it.

And it, to me, I, that was never an expectation and I never knew how insanely popular it got. Like in that weird, basically when it went to DVD and it got the next generation of kids watching it, I had no idea that it happened. So coming out and it was like, I got to step back into this like, oh my God, this legendary thing where I was like, oh, when I left that wasn't, it was, it was like, say 40 people in LA knew about how awesome it was. This is what it felt like. People, this is the thing with Mr. Show and in what y'all are doing. And I think it's a thing that people now just take for granted in comedy. It's always like that. It's like, people start transcending or pushing past whatever the boundary is. And some, some of the

attempts are failure. Some of the attempts work. But what ends up happening is it's like you're building, you're laying down tracks. And you're, and it's, and I was a professor in my college where me and my friends would watch Mr. Show and just be like, this is the greatest thing that has ever happened ever. He would use the term state of the art. And you know, people talk about that in technology, but really the term itself state of the art, where is the art form right now? Like, where is it? What is the state of the art right now? And you guys were state of the art. And because of that, now it's created an entire branch of comedy. I mean, it's, and I just did this. I haven't done a quote alt show or whatever you want to call it in a long time. I just did one

last night. It was really cool. And the crowds are cool. And it's just like thriving. And it's like, I think people forget. Do you think these days, many people are a historic? Yes. Well, because I think we're also stuck in what's this moment right now, what's popular right now? What's happening right now? What's the word you're supposed to be using? What's the, you know, space you're supposed, which, what are you supposed, what haircut you're supposed to have? Yeah. So yeah, there's not a lot of like back referencing. Yeah. If that's what you mean. The lineage, people don't care about lineages as much. There's not a sense. My friend was explaining this to me, you know, he's a musician, he's explaining like, you know, people don't care

the roots of where not everyone, but it's just people are just whatever all that was, it's over now. And now this thing is happening. Right. Yeah. That seems so nihilistic. It seems so sad, really. But I feel like in, it seems to me in, in what you were just talking about with Bob and David, and thank you for saying you guys, because I, I mean, it's, I just got to go and do the parts that they gave me. It's not like I, I get so much credit for what they did. It's really awesome. Not just Mr. Shown. I'm talking about the whole scene. I'm talking about Largo. I'm talking about, I'm talking about the deep alt comedy cult, the impenetrable group of brilliant people who are doing cutting edge comedy who you, it was, and that wasn't, that what they were, you guys had

like force fields, like big force fields and many of you were mean. Oh, that was the whole vibe. Yeah. That was the whole, I mean, that was the 90s thing that I'm talking about. That's the Kurt Cobain thing where you're, everyone's trying to out cool each other. Nobody was a fan of anybody. You had to, you, if you were a fan of somebody else, that meant you were like weak or you were saying you were less than them. And where the contest was in my mind anyway, because I was a female comic, I always wanted to be like, well, I'm a fucking funniest person in this room and I'm going to show, and I was hell bent on, I had to be, I had to kill. Like in those sets, if I, if the room wasn't like scream laughing, it was a abject failure and I felt terrible.

Wow. And it was like, I mean, it was insanity and it was like, and if somebody else did good, fuck them. Like it was so. Ouch. It was bare knuckle fucking boxing. Wow. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, that was just, it was one of the qualities of it. And it's like, when I started realizing it, it didn't make me not like the art any less. It was just like, whoa, fuck man, these, there's like thorns on this thing. This thing's got thorns and fangs and rattles and it's tough. I mean, and also it was like, it was almost like we all went to this one fucked up high school. So everyone did it. We all learned from each other and did it to each other and kind of set the tone that that was okay. But to be totally honest, it, I loved it because

that's like my family was very tough love. You got shit for anything you did from age five. You know what I mean? It was like nobody was, there were no kid gloves ever anywhere. So to land in this group of people when I moved to LA that were like that, that I could like some of the most fun nights were like standing in a kitchen giving Bob Odin Kirk shit. And he loved it. You know what I mean? Like we had the best time together because I was like, Oh, I know how I'm going to get him. Like you couldn't, you couldn't ask his your way in. That was disgusting. No way. You had to, you had to come with the chops. You had to like know how to come and fight. And also just kind of like, that's how you prove that you had the, I don't know, gumption or whatever to, because

it's comedy. It's a hard, it's a really hard thing to do. Nobody should get a fucking free ride. You have to go and be like, I can fight on the front fucking lines of this. That's right. Yeah, that is, it's, it's, it's an interesting art because it's an art that grows from rejection. I mean, you know, if you're, if you're doing, I was having this conversation last night with somebody, if you're doing, you've got to do new jokes. Yeah. Yeah. And those new jokes, some of them are not going to hit man. I mean, somebody told me Bill Cosby said he bombed once. Fuck that guy. That's such bullshit, right? That's, well, and also it was, he had so many just long talking bits where it's like, maybe you did do great because you just manipulated the

audience by having long spaces that made them tense. So anything you say, if you make the audience wait for seven seconds, whatever you say after that, they're going to laugh at it. If it sounds like the shape of a joke, because they don't want the tension of sitting in silence. It's like same thing with clap traps. You can manipulate people. You can manipulate a great set. And that was the kind of thing where like those, my friends at that time, everybody was on the lookout for the bullshit meter. So it's like, if you were up there doing anything that was like that, you were fucking out. Like you could do great, you could kill, but everyone is ready to pick it apart. Oh, sure. I mean, there's no way to not do that as a comedian. Like when you

see people using the tricks or when God, when you're, when you're listening to your set, have you ever had that happen where you are like on stage and you're recording your set and you get off stage, you feel great. Like this was a good set. And then like maybe the next day you listen to your set, you're like, Oh my God, this is a mess. What was I thinking? I very rarely can listen to a set. Like I've recorded myself maybe three times and then just bailed on it or gone back to it literally like a year later. And I definitely, that's the reaction is this is garbage. Why did, why do I think I can do this? Like it's a complete breakdown of like, if I turn that evil eye to it, I will tear myself apart. But you know what I, I can't believe I ever

did comedy music because there is nothing tricky, there's nothing more manipulative or trickier than doing that. And it felt so like cheap always when I was on stage. No way. Yeah, because you're, people are trapped. Like you're making them watch you sing a song, which is insanely vulnerable. Are you talking about girls guitar club? Well, all, but then I did my own afterwards by myself. But girls guitar club was different. I feel like that was, Mary Lynn and I did that in this,

it was such a genuine thing we were doing. It wasn't an act. What we were doing, we were really actually doing. We were literally learning how to play the guitar on stage. We were literally trying our hardest and failing and still doing it anyway. Like I'll never not love girls guitar club because it really, it was a genuine thing. One of the coolest things that I remember I was at Largo when I first came out here, somebody told me, go to Largo. That's where like this amazing comedy is happening. I went there. I didn't, I think I hadn't even, I was like working the phones at the comedy store. I'd only seen that kind of comedy. And then I remember going there girls guitar club went up.

It was first, I don't just like the energy in that room. Yeah. Was like, it was a temple, wasn't it? It was just the most intense people were watching comedy there in the most intense way. Yeah. And it was terrifying to be in the audience. It was, it was, now that I think about it, I think because I was still drinking when it started. So there was definitely like, I never had that, I never had any awareness until later on when I kind of was like, Oh, this is, there's a lot of this feels bad to me. Like the meanness and the competitiveness and my own experience. It all felt bad. But I was always in a fight with that

audience before I ever went on stage. I hated their guts. And I had to go up like that because that's how I got like the best in my mind, the best comedy come to come out of me. Wow. Was I had to like beat it into them that they liked me, that I was funny. Wow. Which is not an enjoyable comedy experience. No, it's not. So painful. It's really, really, it was always just straight straight out of the gut. Why did girls guitar club break up? We just started fighting and we both, both of our kind of careers went in different directions. So we, and we weren't really friends anymore. We didn't spend time together anymore.

I don't know. Yeah, it was, it was sad. It's cool and collaboration is so difficult with it, right? It's just you can, you just accidentally will become enemies with somebody because it's such a hot fire that you're working with there. And it's just, yeah, it can get weird, huh? Well, and anytime you introduce the slightest bit of success, I mean, like, I definitely was really jealous of Mary Lynn. She started, she was on like Larry Sanders. When she got on Larry Sanders, I kind of didn't know what to do with myself because I was just like, that's the coolest fucking credit. And that, and it was the thing of she gets that I get nothing. Like it was, it was her success was my failure.

And that like, it's just too much, it was too much for me to manage that. I didn't have any tools to manage those feelings or that the conflict of those feelings, that was my best friend. And yet there was just this like, so then that came, that was on the stage with us eventually. Oh yeah, because it's what the mind is like, because the thing is it, it, what it happened to you is amazing. If I'm certain at that time, you couldn't have possibly imagined or thought, oh, I'm going to become a comedy writer for Ellen. But then on top of that, I'm going to I'm going to become globally famous from a podcast about murder. Right. And but, but at the time, you know, that's what people forget is like, it's, I think if you are diligent and hard working

and a little bit of luck, it will, something will come to you. 100%. I tell that to everybody, I'm like, live here for 10 years, whatever you're worried about, whatever you're doing, just if you really care about it, if you stay here for 10 years, something will happen. It just is true. Like, because they need people, if you are willing to work, you know, if you're willing to carry a pallet of water around for a year or two, and hustle and listen and learn, something will happen to you because that this town is only opportunity. It's just that like, you can't be like, I get mine right now. Right. And I needed, this is what I wanted, Emmy or whatever. It's like, don't, don't do the bullshit awards, weirdo shit.

Don't do the Harvard shit. If you didn't go to Harvard, like just get in there and like, just, just punch your card every day. Yeah, that's it. And then when the jealousy comes, you know, I, because I love magic with a K. And like, one of the things that I've been taught is that actually the better thing to do is to, by loving a thing, you begin to harmonize with that thing. Yeah. So if you can begin to cultivate what's called compersion for another person's success and learn how when, when people start getting successful around you and that's giving you a feeling of failure and you start getting the jealousy, you can cultivate the ability to start feeling their success as your success. And then that harmonizes you with their vibration.

And then gradually you absorb their soul and they wither away and die. And you take all their Cougarans and now you're the king of the pirates. That's right. No, well that's, but, and a hundred percent all of that. I think these are the things that like, my brain started shedding the old like everything before that I had was I shouldn't be here, I'm not, I'm, it's the fraud thing, whatever. So I have to fight for my place and I have to make sure no one threatens my place. Right. And that was, I was a hundred percent like convinced that that was the truth. Then when I got sober and I was kind of like, real life. And it was like, then I had to start kind of going, wait, these feelings that I'm having that, and Maryland and

I used to have conversations about this a lot because she was so like, I don't know why you're mad. I don't know why you don't like that person. I know she was always kind of like, who cares? Yeah. And I think it was that thing of, I didn't have the confidence to, to go, that's great for you and not separate from me because I was in this like mode of, I'll never, like I was always the beggar at the door and I never could see myself. I never saw myself as like, you get to do sets at Largo. That was meaningless to me. That was, that was like, that's just what people do. It's, it's what I, it's what I do. And it wasn't enough either. It's like killing, killing the most wasn't enough because eventually Greg Fitzsimmons would go on stage and destroy with amazing, brilliant

wisdom. And I would sit in the back and go, they laughed louder. Like they didn't laugh this loud when I did my thing. It was always that like, you're just always a reason to, to be unhappy. So I don't know. I think there's that kind of thing of like, finally realizing you have to fill yourself up inside. It's also, I mean, it does. I hear you putting the brakes on it because it's like, it really is a difficult thing to say and you start feeling embarrassed about it. Yeah. You know, because it's a thing that's like been spoken by people who don't really believe it and are just trying to make a buck or whatever. And so it feels like embarrassing to say. But then I was thinking something very dark, which was, I so, you know, to say like, oh, well, you know, scarcity mentality

and the idea that there's not enough for everybody can only hurt you. And yet, perhaps it was like a necessary stage in your evolution. And if not for all that hate, if not for all that pain, if not for all that anger, you never would have had that, you know, whatever it was, the bit of magic, the coincidences, all the things leading up to this suddenly creating this incredible show. Yeah. And I want to ask you about that this, and this is a heavy question. So forgive me for asking it and forgive me if it's something that someone's already asked you in an interview before, but do you ever worry that family members listen and get bummed out that you're using the death of people that they knew as a thousand percent? We talk, we talk about it on

the show, but we also, there's been times when we first first started touring and we had like meet and greets afterwards. That was our number one fear that someone would walk up and be like, fuck you guys. Like that, I was convinced it was going to happen. And the times that it has happened, the people will go, you did the story about my aunt. That's happened a couple of times. It's never, it's, it hasn't ever been anybody's like this person that I would recognize is, you know, my mother, my sister, but it's always like a relative. And they always say, you, you did it right. Like she would have liked the way you told that story. I mean, and that's, I guess I'm saying that to say, we keep it in mind always because that's,

you have to think of those people when you're telling a story. You know, I always think of it like this, if my father somehow was murdered, you know what I mean? Like just some god fucking knock, but some horrible thing happened. And then somebody else was like, so anyway, this guy, I mean, that's the worst, that's the worst thing. We would, we wouldn't, we would never want people to think that we think that is funny because it isn't. And that's not what we're talking about. So we're, we're having a conversation about a horrible topic and the comedy comes in and around it almost thematically, but the victims aren't the comedy. Yeah, no, I, you guys do a great job at that, but it's,

that was like an awareness we had to grow because in the beginning we're like, yeah, we'll just talk about true crime like everybody else does. And it's not the same. When, you know, like in ancient cultures, they ritualistic human sacrifice was like a huge fundamental part of the religion or whatever, or, you know, it was, it's a huge part of magic. It was an idea is like when you sacrifice an innocent being, energy is released and that that energy can be used for, you know, magical purposes, usually to gain some abundance or something from harvesting the energy of the sacrifice being. Do you guys ever think that's what you're doing with your show is like you're, you're, you're like a spark of energy flying off of a human sacrifice victim?

Like you're, this being has been murdered and in that murder, they've exploded out into the world and not just through your podcast, but through all the other, you know, many of the stories you guys talk about, they've, it's been covered in forensic files or in a bunch of different spots. But you ever think about that? Yes. Well, because I, I see it as like this, the people who are interested in true crime, like for a long time it was always like, oh, that's so ghoulish or that's so macabre or that's too dark of you to, to like that. But it is mo, almost everyone that I've met through this podcast, the attraction is, it comes with a concern. It is, it's, can you believe this happened to this person? It's holding, it's holding tragedy in that way that like when your ants are

dressed up in black and they're me, they're putting out the cold cuts at the funeral and there's certain people that are destroyed and can't do anything. And then there's the people that make it keep going because it's like, this is the, this is a celebration of the life that that person had. Right. It's like saying, listen to what happened to this girl in 1976. She thought she could hitchhike, she got out on the road, she, you know, this was the thing that people believed. And here's this person who came along, she fell for this trap, this trick, this con. She thought she could get into this car or whatever. Her death should matter and it should prevent other deaths. That could be the idea. Now I'm not saying that we're always like, but I think that's what people approach

true crime interest with is future prevention, learning and, and, and trying to learn these cons, trying to learn who are the types of people who would murder someone and how do you never fucking get around that person. And the unspeakable, which is that there's beauty and catastrophe. And, and there's something that is, you don't want to say it. You don't want to say it, but there's something in that version of the universe that's just as beautiful and it's, and it's incredible horror. There's something in it that is so beautiful that it's the human experience. I mean, we're all going to die in some way that we won't like probably. It's a thing people really fear, but it's a reality. It's not like we're making up monsters or something like that. We're just

saying, here's the thing that happened in your town. Here's the thing that happened in my town. Here's the thing that happened to this person's aunt or whatever. I think having two parents that are first responders, my mom was a nurse, a psychiatric nurse, my dad's a fireman. They, that was their job. So this wasn't taboo in my household. This, this was the kind of stuff I heard about from childhood. I had lots of uncles and cousins that were cops. It's the, it's that kind of like, um, you discuss these things and you know about these things and you know these things happen. And so like from an early age, my dad be like, if any, but ever, if you're ever in a neighborhood, you don't like go pull a box, you know, there's like standing, um, there's standing

boxes all around cities. You can go up and pull a thing and a fire truck will come. What? Yeah. You have to look for them. They're not everywhere and they're very old, they're old fashioned, but that's what my dad told me all my life. Go pull a box. And like in, in my mind, I'm trying to do the thing my dad did for me growing up for people, girls who might just be away at college and like whatever, who their parents were never had anything weird happen to them or anything. And they wouldn't think to like lock the car door after they get into it. Because why would they? They've always been safe and they grew up in the suburbs or whatever. But I grew up with people who had seen the worst of everything kind of, and we're basically like, keep your eye out for this. And here's, you should

know there's a resource here. If you need, you know, that kind of like yell fire, don't yell help type of shit that always seemed, I don't know that to me, that's the, that's the discussion we're having is John Wayne, Gacy, I learned about him when I was 12 and I was like, what the fuck is going on? Like I couldn't believe no one had told me before that there would be the kind of man who would dress up as a clown, visit hospitals and bury boys in his house. Yes. That I tripped out on that for months, for months. And then I couldn't let it go because I was like, no one fucking told me about this. And I don't think anybody was going to tell me about this, which means the world is full of things like this. And I need to find out what they are. Is it true? John Wayne Gacy said

the only thing he's guilty of is running a funeral home without a license. I mean, I've heard that. I don't know if it's true. I let's not Google it. Let's pick up a banana. If you if you if you had to be a serial killer, like let's say, and I'm sorry if you've talked about this on your show, I don't think I have. So okay, we have a perfect simulator that we can go into. These are artificial intelligences. They're not going to feel it's like Westworld or whatever. Okay. So if you could be a serial killer, what kind of serial killer would you be? What would be your like what what, you know, the flair? What would be your flair? What would you call yourself? How would you murder? I will say this, because that was the funniest thing to me in Westworld.

And it also is something I saw my friend do once because my my ex had Grand Theft Auto and my friend walked up and he's like, Oh, I want to play this. I've never played it before. And he got his guy and immediately just started beating the shit out of the first woman that walked up to him on the street. And it made me laugh so hard because I was like, Oh, I would never think that you would do that. And that was he he didn't care about driving the cars. He wanted to walk up and beat punch people in the face. Yeah. For me, I think because I was raised so Catholic, the idea I'm not interested in the killers themselves. Like, like, I don't I never watch things where they get interviewed. I don't want to like, I don't want to get that on me.

I feel like that vibe, like the vibrationally is so incredibly low that it can bring you down permanently for sure. And I fear that level of wrongdoing. So anyway, just to put that out there that the idea of murder isn't interesting or appealing to me. Now, I love the the fascination, the psychological fashion is fascination to me of a person who was figured out like there was a serial killer in the Bay Area in the 70s, who was killing people because he thought he needed to to prevent earthquakes. He was, you know, gone totally organic in his brain. And he was walking, he was shooting. He killed people in all different ways. And he was on tons of acid. It was very like post, you know, San Francisco hippie era shit when things just started getting, you know,

like pre Manson post Manson. Manson was late 60s, right? Oh, yeah. Yeah. Okay. This guy, I think was early 70s. So it was the darker, I think time. But that to me, like the people that set up, they have their reason. They have a reason. And so they're like, I'm going to punish you, this family, because I don't like fam my family was so terrible to me. Or that's the thing I would want to get into and like, really understand. Or like Richard Chase, who is the vampire of Sacramento, who, who like was incredibly schizophrenic and very, very deranged. And he thought that his blood, he thought his, I think blood turned a chalk or his bone, like his bones were breaking. Like he had all those kinds of he need, he believed he needed to kill people and needed to drink blood

to help because he was there's something very wrong with him. So you'd want to believe that you you're your killer that you would play would want to have some just reason behind it. Well, I would like to, it's almost like watching the movie seven where but you only learned about it in the end. But it's that thing of like, what are you writing in those fucking notebooks in the tiny, tiny writing? You know what I mean? Like what is this? How did this start? And let me see why you think this is okay. Or this is like, yeah, you know, sneaking into somebody's house and standing in the dark and you want to scare them, you want to continually make them as scared as they possibly can be. And what does that, why is that a thing in your brain that rewards you or something?

Because you're a fucking idiot, man. Most of these serial killers are like, when you see these, I watch the interviews. And when you see the Dahmer interviews, and when you see the BTK killer interviews, and when you see the interviews, it's like, Jesus Christ, they're boring. They're just these like saps, usually there's nothing like interesting really, they just seem really dull for like, and they're like really egotistical. Yeah, I think the only one did you watch mind hunter that series on Netflix that was based on so it's the guys that started the behavioral analysis thing in the FBI, basically that started understanding there were serial killers and tracking them. And there's this amazing scene where they talked to Ed Kemper, who was also in

and he's in Santa Cruz, and he was a coed killer type of guy. And the interviewers just like asking him, and he's explaining in the most like, like they're talking about British literature or something. But he's like explaining why he did, he killed his own mother and, and fucked her decapitated head. And he's explaining to the FBI guy what the thinking was behind that, then he buried the head in the yard and had it face the house so that she would always have to look at him. Like that kind of stuff where if you came upon that scene as a police officer, it looks like the most horrifying nightmare in pandemonium, but there's a person who did it for a reason. What do you think is the difference between

American presidents and serial killers? The weapons they use, maybe? Like this, that I honestly feel that my hope is eventually when things calm down a little bit and feel things don't feel like the world is totally going down the drain, that people will realize that it isn't like good, bad Republican Democrat, all the dividing lines that it actually should truly be sociopaths versus regular people, sociopaths and psychopaths and regular people. We have to get those people out of society because those are the people running these companies that are like no companies or people. We are going to take all the money, keep it at the top. You guys can all die. We're hoping you die. The dream is that you all die.

We can have more money in space and we can have as many yachts as we want. I need those people gone. We have to stop worshiping those people. That's my human evolution dream. Sociopaths have such an influence and a deep effect on culture. You meet one of those people, talk about the commune or whatever, those people that are truly trying to take you for a ride and people fall for it and get all embroiled and all that kind of shit because they don't know about it. That presidents. They go straight to the top. Again, there's a John Ronson book called The Psychopath Test that's all about that those people eventually, because they don't care, rise to the top. There's nothing that brings

them. Nothing makes them go, I can't do this anymore because they don't care. Wow. That is so, it's so wild to think about that, that it's just right. You're gonna be really, really successful if you're a sociopath. Yeah, you don't care. I mean, you step on anybody, steal any idea, take anything, make somebody loses their pension because of you, keep on moving, like figure out if you can get the pension. That kind of shit is how a lot of American business works. It's like that stupid fucking movie that greed is good bullshit. I remember seeing that in the 90s and being like, this is the most unhealthy thing I've ever seen. This is, this is incredibly wrong. And like, I don't know. I mean, I don't, I have no education about any capitalism or any

of that shit, but I know more of just psychopaths and sociopaths where it's just like, they only want to win. They don't even care what they're winning. They just want to beat you. They want to take what you have. They want to beat you. They want to fuck you. They want to get ahead of you. They want to step, step on your head. Yeah. You know, okay. So you like, you know how cults are like religions that didn't quite take off, right? Yeah. And like serial killers are like CEOs. Yeah. They just went down a different path. Yes, exactly. They didn't have a, usually it's because they had a head injury as a child. So then they went on some weird like, they had to go criminal because they got genuinely fucked up in the frontal lobe

when they were kids. So theoretically, if we could figure out a way to gather all the sociopaths of the world together, just not let them run things or let them run things, but we control what they're running. I mean, shit, they're there. Maybe I remember someone speculating, maybe there actually is a place for a sociopath in a community. Like you, like there, it's an evolutionary necessity for some reason to have one of these freaks floating around. But yeah, they're the ones that stand on the hill. And if a stranger is coming toward the village, you kill them no matter what. If it's a kid, if it's a family, you kill them to protect the rest of the village. Yeah. And you don't, it doesn't eat you alive. Like that would make sense. But now

it's like, but now we have these ones, they're on the hill and they're just trying to kill everybody and take everybody's shit. Do you ever think about the statistics of, I don't know how many people, I can only imagine, and I'm not asking for the number, I have no idea how many people download your podcast, but do you ever do statistical analysis of that many people and then think to yourself, what is the probability that a serial killer is listening to this right now? The way I think of it is when I go to do a story, I always look up, are they still, is this person I'm about to talk about still alive? Could he download this and listen to it in jail? I think about that all the time. Most of the time, they're either not or it's like,

there was, there was one, there was one, it was a, I think Georgia did it. It was a cold case and it wasn't, it wasn't proven, but it was like something that happened in this town. And when she got to the end of the story, she's like, and he's still alive and he's a lawyer in that town. And I was like, okay, well, everything you just said was a speculation and theoretical. He's a lawyer. He's a fucking lawyer. Like, what are, and, and, but that's also when we first started. We were just like chit-chatting, like it was just us. And yeah, I mean, it's just, it's a weird thing. The one thing I'm grateful for having kind of already been around true high level, like celebrity, having worked for Ellen and seen what her life, what that

made her life into. I at least had a slight working knowledge of like the outer coming in to affect your inner life. Okay, right, right. Where you don't understand at first. It doesn't, it didn't make sense. This also happened so fast. It's so insane where I've lived in the city for 24 years, trying to do this thing and it's never happened. So then all of a sudden, like it going overnight is very odd to me. It must be. It's very odd and just kind of like, and I've been telling Georgia since it started, this is going to stop. So you need to get ready. You need to be prepared for how disappointing it'll be when we don't have this anymore. And she would just like the next week be like, well, look at where we are now on the

and I'm like, that's going to end. So just let it go. I couldn't stop telling her to let it go because I just, I don't trust anything really, I think at the end of the day. But I don't even think you even, I don't even think you're even close to how big it's going to get. I think that you're not even close. I think that you're, you guys are going to, it just is going to keep ballooning out and ballooning. It will, it will, it will, because I mean, this is still kind of new to people. It is. Right. And it's, and podcasts are still new to people. Yes. Yes. That's the crazy thing about it is that, yeah, just what, what I try to do is not think about it. My, my goal is I just, and I'm sorry to bring it up around you. I just,

as I was thinking about chatting with you, I was thinking like, holy shit, for sure. A serial killer is listening to this. I'm not saying one that you're talking about. I'm saying, just one sitting out there. A serial killer who hears about a, who hears about a true crime, the most famous true crime podcast is going to download it. Sure. And then, then I started thinking like, whoa, I wonder if like a serial killer walking through a neighborhood, scoping out the next house is listening to your podcast on his headphones. And then I started thinking, whoa, I wonder if someone's tied up in a house right now who has been forced to listen to your podcast by some podcasting serial killer. That's his specific torture. I mean, but

and maybe that person is in that closet. Surprise. Then all of a sudden there's just a bloody hand that drags down that glass. God damn it. Well, you know what? I, I just, when I have gone down this road of what if true crime has been around for like a hundred, 200 years, actually. I read this really cool, I'm not gonna remember the name or the author's name, but it was basically how like the whole true crime thing basically happened in those like, I think they're called broad sheets. I definitely could be wrong, but it was basically in England, like in the 17, 1800s in England, where they realized that they could sell these newspapers because people wanted to know what happened with that body that was laying in the street. Right. Then, and they were

like, as the paper sold, they were like, oh, we got to tell everybody, you know, like even maybe before real police or detectives were like that whole system was set up. They were telling people everything all the time and people were buying it and wanted to know that's just a human thing. Yeah. Did the worst case scenario happen? Please tell me everything. Right. Because I need to know so that going forward, I cannot have that happen to me. Gotcha. It's a, it's to protect yourself. It's just so you aren't, you know, walking through the world imagining that there aren't these human crocodiles among us. Right. But you, I'm telling you, I don't mean to keep going back and this is my own darkness coming out. But I, if we were in Vegas, putting bets down and they're like,

do you want to bet that they're going to get a zodiac style letter from a serial killer one day? I bet, I would bet thousands of dollars that one day because, well, do you think, but do you think last podcast on the left would get that? Like, because there's lots of these true crime podcasts. I don't know. Do you think it's because we're women talking about it? I don't, I think like the vulnerability, I don't, I'm not up to date on like the, what are the most popular podcasts? I love last podcasts on the left, but I just think your podcast has become known as the, the one. Right. So that's why I would say it. Maybe because you're women, I don't know, but I think that that wasn't what I was thinking. I was just thinking, because that's just you,

you have the, you know, when I think of a murder show, what murder show do you think of on TV? Well, I always think of forensic file. That's it. Yeah. It's forensic. It's the show. It's been on for 40 years. Yeah. It's, you watch it in the hotel as you're picking out on room service. After your shitty set. Yes. Yes. Yes. That's it. And so in the same way, I just, I'm just, I have an intuition that you guys are going to get, it used to be the serial killer, the zodiac killer would write to like, well, I don't know, in San Francisco, I don't remember. The chronicle. Yeah. The chronicle. Yeah. Or the examiner. Or the examiner. Yeah. But no fucking serial killer in his right mind or her right mind is going to send a fucking letter to a newspaper?

No way. They're going to contact a podcast. But we wouldn't read it. Oh, no, you wouldn't read it. No. But you'd have to give it to the police. Well, that would be fucking exciting as fuck. The, I had a detective from Burbank, Burbank PD, right? It's not even LAPD. Come to my house because there was a shooting down the street. And they, they were just knocking doors to find out if anybody saw anything or heard anything. It was one of the most exciting things that's ever happened. The vibe off these two dudes, full suit, like men's warehouse style suits, slicked back hair, like a pinky ring. I'm like, that could be my brain inventing. But I remember like a gold pinky ring. And I was trying to think of something to tell these people because I was so thrilled.

I was felt like starstruck. And we've had FBI agents come to our meet and greets. We had these two FBI agents come when we were in Baltimore. It was truly like better than any celebrity I've ever met. I was like weak need. And they were both like six, four, kind of like they just look like two hot dudes with suits on. And they walked up in the meet and greet and were like, we need to talk to you ladies. And so it was like a hilarious joke. And they were legit FBI agents with badges. And I was just like, like, completely a seventh grader. That is so badass. It's so we are getting, I mean, it's, I would assume cops would be like, fuck that shit. I would assume an FBI agent would be like, they don't even know what they're talking about. You know what I mean?

Like, I would never think we've had people come up and be like, I'm a, you know, a psychologist or I'm a therapist or I'm a, I teach forensics at this place where just like, that's incredible. Like, you're the expert here. And then you're listening to our basically conversation about your business. Yeah. I know I wouldn't expect you to want to listen to two intense amateurs. Like not some people really try to pretend they know what they're talking about. Right. When they do true crime, it's a, you know, statistical informational base. I fucking mess up every single episode. That's all I do. Well, listen to the forensic files narrator's voice. I mean, it's that voice, that thing is like how it's always been done. So to have suddenly

the antithesis of the event in the form of your conversation, I mean, it's the perfect comedic device. It's like these, it's matter and anti-matter crashing against each other. A thousand and also in the way that people go, you're not allowed to do that. You're not supposed to be doing that or that how do you do that when you're not supposed to where it's like, but in my world, the way I was raised, you do do it. Like, maybe it's just that Irish Catholic thing, but like sitting at the table with my grandma or my grandma and my dad would go, they go through what horrible things have happened to all the people that they know. That's like a nice visit where you're like, this person has cancer. And did you hear about this

person? They got hit by a car. And that was just like the update of like, this is the events of the of the realm we live in. Yeah. Basically. So to me, I feel like that's part of it too. Or it's like, we're not trying to say, we know why things are happening. We're not, we're not doing anything. We're just going, can you fucking believe this? Right. Yeah, I love it. It's the best. Now, I'm sorry. I keep saying that about your show. It's obvious and embarrassing, but please don't apologize. Here's a super dark question I had for you. Okay. And I've kept you a little longer than I usually do. It's okay. I love it. Okay. Beautiful. Okay. My question was, if you're getting stabbed to death, do you think there's a cool thing you can say to your

murderer that would haunt them forever? How about, I hope you're happy. That's pretty good. Well, I hope you're happy. Yeah, because that's the, that's like the last thing you got, right? If you're getting stabbed to death is like, it's to stop screaming because you know, they're getting off on it. You know what's hilarious about that? My cousin Stevie used to have a shirt like the first cartoon that I, I saw it was like, instead of it being a picture, I was like, oh, that, I get that. And it was an eagle that looked like it was landing with its talons out, almost like 3d style out of the shirt. And then at the base of that, there was a mouse standing there with it's flipping the eagle off because it was about to get eaten. Yeah. And I underneath it,

it said something like the, the last stand or make your, make your stand or fucking something where it was just basically like, like if you're about to get creamed, fucking like, do, do your thing. Why not? Yeah. Why wouldn't you do that? That's right. Be theatrical about it. Like if you're gonna, if you're about to get murdered, be theatrical, but I'm a little interested or you were talking about the marches. I assume you're talking about the gun control marches. Is that what you meant? I was thinking of the women's march only because that was the, kind of the first mod, like recent big one. What's your stance on that, on gun control, knowing all you know about all of this shit? Like one of the things when I watch forensic files or

hear about this stuff, one of the things I think is like, I want a gun. I want like a gun in my house. Yeah. To defend myself if I need to. The sad part about that is the statistics say the guns don't help. That gun's actually, you, you, much more injury happens operator error style and that oftentimes if somebody breaks into your house or wants to attack you, the gun won't be close by. It'll be in your gun safe. If you're a normal person, it'll be in your gun safe and it won't matter. Yeah. What are you going to have one of those bed holsters? Have you ever seen that? Like the shotgun bed holster? No. They have those. Like on the bed. It's on the side of your bed. It's a holster. You put your shotgun in it so

that when someone's breaking in, you reach down and pull out the shotgun, you're ready to blast. You know what's crazy? I've been reading Michelle McNamara, Patton's wife, his late wife, who wrote this in fucking credible book about the most amazing story. Talk about the guy that's still out there and could be listening right now. The East area rapist who's now called the Golden State Killer, but he started in Sacramento where I went to college. So all the places, and I've just been reading her book, which is brilliantly, it's called I'll Be Gone in the Dark. It's so well written. It's so good. I can't, it's so tragic that she fucking died. It makes me so mad. But anyway. It's unbelievable. They talk about, I was so shocked. Like it's not like I was best friends

with her or anything. I knew her socially. It rocked me so fucking hard. It was so shocking and awful. Anyway, and then just, yeah, and then she's one of the most talented writers I've ever read. Yeah, it's like on every level. It's just a trim. It's a, it's a, yeah, it's a black hole. It's like, yeah, because I read her writing. I haven't read the book yet, but her writing is just amazing. It's, and she knows, because she is such a fan of all that stuff, she knows how to process details and facts, factoids in a way that she presents it to you. So it's like so much of true crime writing is really dry. And it's, and it's also very overly like somber where she's in there basically going, like you're walking through it, like this is what it would be like. She's, she's

painting this picture that is, she's not trying to code it with an, aren't we sad about this? She's going, look how fucked. Look at this. Look at how fucked this is, but it's not, it's not exploitive. It's factually look how fucked. And it is incredible. Like if you care about true crime, reading that book is quite an experience because the writing is, I mean, like fucking, I feel like people, of course, when they lose somebody, then you, everything gets put through, through this lens of like, well, of course, we're all going to say nice things about her writing because she died. That is not what's fucking going on here. It's, it's exemplary writing. It's, it's incredibly high level.

Yeah, for sure. Nobody's, yeah, there's no reason, like there'd be absolutely no reason. I think, but that's talking about like the jealous mind, that thing of people going, like, oh, you're not going to say something negative about it. It's like, you fucking can't. I try, I challenge anyone to read that book and not walk away going, that was one of the most talented writers. It's like everything. Word choice, the phrasing, everything. But all of that is to say, the Golden State Killer was a rapist in Sacramento who raped like over 50 women. It went on for a really long time. He would rape women intentionally when the husband was there. So he would tie them both up, put a stack of dishes on the husband's back, take the

woman in the front room, rape her, knowing like, because to, to inflict that kind of pain of knowing I've taken your wife and you're gonna sit here and listen to it, they, they said gun sales went up, they sold like 6,000 guns in one month or something like that. It never helped. Nobody ever pulled a gun on this guy. Nobody ever, like he, I think he was shot at one time and it was because the people were already up out of bed. But like that idea that you can buy a thing that will prevent is a fucking lie. It's a lie. And like, it's a nice idea and it might make you feel better, go get a gun if, if you want that security. But you also have to take into account that you lose security for having a death machine right next to your fucking bed. As a comedian, many of us are

afraid to own guns because we think we'll turn them on ourselves. No joke. I've talked to a few different comedians and it's two different comedians have said to me, I can't have a gun, not because I have some strong feeling about guns, but I just get really sad. You know what's that made me think of my, because I was like, it makes me think of like what you think you'd reach for, how you think you would take care of business in a situation where you've never been in that situation before, tightened beyond your, you're feeling a fear level that no one ever feels you've gone up to the top of the thermometer of fear. Yeah. What do you do in that scenario? Right. Um, my friend, uh, Malava, she used to be my roommate for a second. I thought

maybe you would have known her. She was from Sacramento. She was from actually up north of Sacramento, um, up an Auburn where it's like all mountainous and it's that thing where you're, you're nearest neighbor is five miles away. And she had a friend that she went to high school with who, um, her parents went away for the weekend. She woke up in the middle of the night to go to the bathroom and there was a man standing in the hallway and she went to the fear thing, you know, her, the, of course it's like, Holy, this is, this is it. I mean, and that's part of my fascination to crime. That scenario, this is the moment everyone fears every single fucking person on the planet fears this moment, this confrontation. And the story is that that girl, high school girl

just started making this animalistic noise. She's like, they're standing in a dark hallway, like at the either end of the hallway together and she just starts growling, gets down and just starts acting like an insane animal. And the guy fucking ran out of the house. Isn't that amazing? It was like her instinctual thing was like, well, there's no fucking, there's no gun, there's no weapon. Of course, it's going to happen in a surprise way. And what do you do if you have nothing to grab or nothing, no weapon, no defense. But there is, it's like, there is a way to scare the scary, you know, like, yeah, it's not, maybe that's a part of it too. In those moments, there are people who survive those moments.

There are people who survive serial killers. There are people fucking get away, outsmart them. There are teenage 14 year old girls who fucking figure out a way to get out of a handcuff and climb out of a fucking bathroom window. It happens constantly. Right. I love those fucking stories. Yeah, me too. They're incredible. Yeah. It's beautiful, except, you know, the person's permanently traumatized probably and like there's resounding hellish darkness in them forever because of these swine and that fucking guy, that guy, the golden state killer. Yeah. Oh, my God. You guys got to start. I'm telling you on your, I'm saying, fuck me for, give me any advice. But if I were you, man, I'd have a moment where I would say something to the serial killer listening to your podcast,

something like, no, I'm not interested in that. Kill yourself. But they're, that's not like, I don't think in my mind, if you are in that realm, there's say, they say that they think there's 2000 working serial killers in the United States, like at any given time, that's the average that they working. Yes. Fuck active. Fuck. Right. I think those people are not reachable in a normal way. So if any message I would have would get, you know, like all fucked up through the filter of whatever it's happening in their brain, that is that is bad. And it does. So any message I would have would get all bent up and fucked up. Anyway, plus the fact I don't have a message for them. I don't, they're, I don't care about them. Got it. I like the story of a person who is brought to that

moment of what I think I, I think I would wet my pants. Like I, I think I would lose my all control of my physical body and probably fall down or something like, because I've had that fear moment, like almost getting into a car accident where you're like, Oh, I could have just died. Yes. Yes. Where like, I have a thing where when I get that level of fear, the tops of my arms, like, it feels like needles. Yep. Have you had that? Absolutely. Oh, that's not just my. No, when I get in the situation where like, there's a chance for violence, that violence could happen there, there's a reaction that goes up my arms where there's a sense of like, Oh shit, a tightening of the air, a feeling of like, Oh fuck, this is escalating to a point where violence can happen. Yeah. And,

and, and that's a real shitty feeling. It's so crazy. And there are people who have been put into that moment and still were able to bring themselves to like a reason, a place of reason to get out of it. Yeah. That does happen. And a lot of times those women that are terribly victimized by monster people, they, it takes a while for them to recover, and then they start working with other people who it's, it's happened to. That's a thing that I fucking love. So many of those stories, like if you've ever seen a show I survived, so many of them, it's an incredibly well produced, well made show where people sit there with a black psych behind them and just go, so I was walking home from my thing and they tell you about their near death experience and it's,

it's 90% women who have been attacked, strangled, raped and almost murdered and they survive. And then it's like a bunch of guys that were like, I went out on my jet ski and then this wave came like every, it's hilarious because I would say 80% of the men's stories are self inflicted hiking issues that they then had to like crawl back from a bear attack or whatever. And then these women are just like, and then there was a man sitting on my chest and he had a knife in my ear. It's like so fucking crazy. Poor dudes, right? That's what you're saying, right? It's very sad. It's hard for guys because nature is the ultimate serial killer. Yeah, exactly. We're in way more danger, way more danger because we're athletic. We like to jet ski. You put yourself out there. We're putting

ourselves out there. I feel the exact same way. It's like you ladies really have it easy, totally easy because usually it's, it is mostly like men getting stabbed to death by these psychotic raping women. Yes. Well, I mean, men get stabbed for their, for, it happens. And you know, it's really interesting statistically. It's not like women are, it's that much more of the making up of the victims of like violence or whatever. I was making a dumb joke. No, no, no, I know. But I love the idea that someone goes to a place so black most people have will never go there, will never, ever experience it and still come back out and then go, I got you. I know exactly how you feel. If you're in this, you know, this place where this is a thing that actually happened on our show.

I did it. So I used to retell I survived episodes when I was at work really late and couldn't like research or write a story. Okay. So I would just come in and say to Georgia, sorry, I was at work till eight o'clock. Here's mine. I'm going to retell you my favorite episode of I survived. One of them was the story of this woman, Jennifer Morey in Houston, Texas. She lived in a gated apartment complex. She was very worried about safety or whatever. So she specifically picked this place that had armed guards and big gates and all this stuff. She wakes up in the middle of night one night, there's a guy on her sitting on her chest with a knife to her neck. And she starts fighting him off. He's he's trying to rape her. She's fighting him off. He cuts her neck

open. And she somehow gets she injures him somehow. And he basically gets off her and runs thinking that this is a mortal wound that he is inflicted on her neck. So he goes, she shuts the door, she wraps a towel around her neck, goes into the bathroom, shuts the door, gets on 911. It's talking to the dispatcher. The dispatcher is like, hang on, you're going to make it through this. There's a knock at the door. It's security. Let us in. We know that you're injured. And and so she goes, Oh, good securities here. And the dispatcher on the phone goes, don't open the door. And she goes, No, no, no, this is the security from my apartment complex. And they this is what I pay for. And he goes, Yeah, but we don't know who it is.

So let's wait. He goes, the police are three minutes away. You can hang on through this, you can do this, whatever. Basically, they he they the knocking is like crazy. And like, you have to let us help you or whatever. And she's like, she she just doesn't answer. And eventually the cops come get her take her away. She survives. It's because it's I survived. They start searching the perimeter for this attacker with the security guards that work there. And one cop looks down and sees the security guard has blood on his socks. Oh Jesus Christ, they make him take his shirt off his chest is covered in blood. It's the fucking security guard broke into her apartment, cut the lights, cut the phone, cut the landline, and was in there to rape

and kill her. And she somehow like, she injured him somehow. And he had to get out. And he left behind his hat. The reason he came back, he he wanted to make sure she died and he had to get his hat because he left his hat in her apartment. Okay, I tell this story on our podcast. A month later, I get an email from this woman, Jennifer Morgan. And she's like, I love the way you told my story. Thank you. It means a lot to me. And I was like, Holy fuck, well, we went and did Houston live show, like, in February, I think, or wait, no, it's March now. Last year, I can't remember. And she came to the live show, and she came out, I got to introduce her and she got, you get to say hi to everybody. And it was the fucking coolest thing because

first of all, she's the chillest woman, she has a family. She is like the she's really, really cool. She's a lawyer, but she also has a whole victims rights fucking thing going on. And she stood on that fucking stage and told all those women in the audience, whatever it is you're going through, you can make it. And you have great people around you, you have a community. And she basically gave them this fucking pep talk. And they all knew her story. It was one of the most incredible things I got to ever be a part of. And that's the kind of thing where I'm like, yeah, there's all these things you can focus on. But if I'm going to be, I get to pick. And that, I mean, that was like, everybody was crying. It was just the coolest

fucking moment of like, you get, you can like elevate, you can elevate shit out of the blackest blackness, I think. You can. And that's what you're doing. And man, that, or try, I mean, like trying, you know, you did it. That's it. That's beautiful. It was rad. It was really rad. Karen, thank you so much for being on this show. I love talking to you. You're the best. You're the best. Please tell people who want to find you or they can find you. I'm on Twitter, Karen Kilgariff at Karen Kilgariff. I think that's pretty much it. I'll have all the links. Thank you so much for being on the show. Absolutely. Absolutely. That was Karen Kilgariff. Everybody don't forget to listen to my favorite murder,

her wonderful podcast that she hosts with Georgia Hardstark. A big thank you to Audible for sponsoring this episode of the DTFH. Remember, if you go to audible.com, forward slash DTFH or text DTFH to 500-500, you're going to get a free audio book and a 30 day trial membership. Thank you for subscribing to us over at patreon.com, forward slash DTFH. Stay tuned. We got some great episodes coming up. David Arquette is going to be here, Doug Lusson hops going to be here, and many, many others, including a wonderful Mark DuPlas episode, which is coming out in May. Thank you guys so much for listening. Hare Krishna. See you down the road. A good time starts with a great wardrobe. Next stop, JCPenney. Family get-togethers to fancy

occasions, wedding season two. We do it all in style. Dresses, suiting, and plenty of color to play with. Get fixed up with brands like Liz Claiborne, Worthington, Stafford, and J4R. Oh, and thereabouts for kids. Super cute and extra affordable. Check out the latest in-store, and we're never short on options at jcp.com. All dressed up everywhere to go. JCPenney. It's Macy's friends and family. Get an extra 30% off great gifts for her just in time for Mother's Day when you use your coupon or Macy's card. And take 15% off beauty essentials or shop specials she'll love while supplies last. Plus, Star Rewards members earn on every purchase except gift card services and fees at Macy's. Sign up today at Macy's.com slash Star Rewards.

Savings off regular sale and clearance prices. Exclusions apply.