Duncan Trussell Family Hour - Reverend Teijo Munnich

Episode Date: October 11, 2013

Zen Rev.Teijo Munnich discusses zen and meditation.

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Hola! Hello, friends. How are you today? I'm doing well. Thanks for asking. You're listening to the Dunkin' Trussell Family Hour podcast. I've been working, believe it or not, I've been trying to get this episode up since Monday. It is now Thursday, and I'm just struggling with coming up with some kind of intro for

this thing, because I guess I'm so impressed with the day's guests that I want an intro that in some way will equal the awesomeness of this human being. And I've completely failed in every single possible intro to this thing. No matter what I do, everything that I say just seems kind of phony and, I don't know, like I'm trying too hard or I'm not trying hard enough or I'm trying to be funny. And I think that's the effect that Zen has on me. It's just this rock that my mind always crashes against and then falls apart in the face of. It kind of cuts through all the games, and I don't know.

I just don't understand it. I don't understand Zen. And I don't even think I understand Buddhism in the whole course of trying to record opening monologues to sort of like, here's what I think Buddhism is. I'll listen to it and realize that I don't understand Buddhism or the philosophy of Buddhism at all. And then when I talk about Buddhism and say I don't understand it, then I feel like I'm trying to be Buddhist by saying I don't understand it.

So it's just like an electrical fence that my brain touches and just freaks out over. So I'm, forget it. I'm not going to do an opening, I'm not doing an opening opening monologue. All the opening monologues that I tried this week, I'm throwing into the river of time giving up and I'm just going to go straight into commercials. Then we're going to do this podcast with Reverend Tejo Munich, the woman who introduced me to Zen Buddhism back when I was in college. So let's get down to business.

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inspired, or at least like I'm having fun, or if it doesn't feel right for me, then I don't want to release it. I don't want to release the episode, so I don't know how to solve this problem yet. I'm going to figure it out, because I really would like to release more episodes of these. I actually have an episode in the can now with the legendary podcasters, Keith and the girl, and I'm excited to release that episode, because they're part of what inspired me to really get serious about podcasting. And a lot of other great episodes are coming out, so anyway, I continue to deal with the

problem of releasing these with more frequency, but I'm just not going to put them out to put for the sake of putting them out. What's the point of that? I don't want to do that. This isn't a machine shop, we're not printing, we're not producing milk carton tops. Want this to be good? Maybe that's a problem. That's probably a problem.

Who knows? Anyway, thank you for listening, and I love you all very much, and I hope you're all having wonderful incarnations out there and enjoying the fall. Today's guest is the Reverend Tejo Munich. She is the abbess of the Great Tree Zen Women's Temple in Alexander, North Carolina, and she is the first person to introduce me to Zen Buddhism and to teach me how to sit in the lotus position. And I have, I think about her all the time, because I think this is the first time I ever

had what I would consider to be a real meditation practice. The first time I really started regularly meditating started because of my interaction with her. I was doing an internship in college, and we had to do an internship for psychology, and so I decided to do an internship at a Zen center because I wanted to study the effects that meditation had on human consciousness. It was really just an excuse to hang out at a Zen temple, and when I got there, the first, I started coming there every week, or like twice a week, and I was expecting her to sort

of, I don't know, give me like concise information about Zen, and all she really did was have me meditate in the evening with a group that would come there to meditate, and then before people came there, she would have me clean the temple. And that was really frustrating to me because I wanted some hard and fast rules about meditation, a desire that I continue to have, but aside from showing what the lotus position was like and posture, and that was the essence of the thing, and over the course of regularly meditating, I did begin to experience a calming of the mind and a kind of intangible tranquility and peacefulness that seemed to be soaking into every aspect of my life.

So I owe her, I have a great debt of, I don't know if it's a debt, I don't know if you call it a debt, but I really am very grateful that I came into contact with her, and I'm very grateful that she took the time to do this podcast. If after listening to this, you want to find out more about Tejo, or you want to reach out to her, or if you live in Asheville, North Carolina, and want to go to the Asheville Zen Center, which is still there, then you can go to zcashville.org. And check out their schedule, they have regular meditation there, and it's a great way for you to connect with other people who are regularly meditating or practicing Buddhism.

So check that out. And again, thank you very much, Tejo, for doing this podcast. So now everyone, please open your hearts, open your heart chakras, throw yourselves into the great void, and embrace my friend and teacher, Reverend Tejo Munich. Welcome upon you, that you are with us, shake hands, no need to be blue, welcome to you. Good morning, Tejo. Thanks so much for being on my podcast. No problem.

Can you tell me what Soto Zen is? Oh, Soto Zen is the, I don't know, style or practice of Zen. That Dogen Zenji from 13th century Japan discovered when he went to China. And at that time, Rinzai had been practiced in China and was already transmitted to Japan. And that was primarily what he encountered when he went to China. But then at the last minute when he was getting ready to leave, he found a teacher who was Soto Zen, and one of the things that I love about, that somebody once told me about the word Soto, is that in Chinese, one of the pronunciations is cow dung.

So that's also what Soto Zen is. Why? Why do they call it cow dung? Because that's just the pronunciation of the Chinese. But for us, it means cow dung, right? Wow, that's hilarious. Because right now all of the true hippies in the audience listening are like, that's what mushrooms grow off of.

Right, right. Thank you. That adds something to my understanding, but anyway, it's C-A-O-D-O-N-G or something in Chinese. And, you know, I guess it's pronounced different in different places, but a Chinese scholar once told me that. And I thought that was kind of an interesting point about Soto Zen. But anyway, Delgan Zen, she took it back to Japan and started to teach.

And that was at a time in Japan when things were kind of, the empirical court was losing its power and, you know, the capital, I don't know when it got switched, but the samurai were gaining power. And so there was a lot of both upheaval both in politics and in religion. And Delgan was, you know, he was very spiritual, but he was actually raised in the empirical court because, you know, he was somehow connected to the emperor. So, you know, he was part, he had his foot in both worlds. And I guess, you know, he was one of those people who had just seen so much and studied

so hard that he finally got to the point where he said, Hey, you know, this needs fixing and this is, I got to do something, you know. And so he, he was seen as kind of a radical during his time because what he was teaching was really quite radical. Now, before we get into the essence of the teaching, so Buddhism starts in, it starts in India. And so by the time he discovered Soto Zen, it had already spread all through Asia. And he came to China where they were practicing, there was a predominant form of Buddhism.

And then he found this other form that was, I guess, more rare or eclectic or something no one had heard of. I don't know. I mean, it was rare. And in China at that time, yeah. And he, it was a teacher. I think it was a way a particular teacher taught. And that's probably, I don't know how it got the name Soto.

I mean, you know, like Hinduism, now we call it Hinduism, but at the time that it was Hinduism, they weren't calling it Hinduism, you know. Yes. And I don't, I think that's something a lot of people might not know about Buddhism is its tendency to transform as it moves around. Oh, yes. Yes, yes. Yes, I taught a class at Warren Wilson on Zen, Chan and Zen.

And Chan, of course, is the, can you still hear me? Yes, I can. Okay. Chan is the Chinese word for Zen. And you know, and Zen came from Chan. So what I did was I thought, well, okay, I'm just going to trace it historically. And instead of just saying what it is, have them read the actual teachings of the teachers as it changed.

And I was so amazed at, you know, it changed gradually. But what we understand about even Zen today is so different from what it originally was. And of course, when it originated in, Thich Nhat Hanh says it started in Vietnam, although most of the texts, all of the textbooks say it started with Bodhidharma in China. But Thich Nhat Hanh wrote a whole book about how it started in Vietnam and who the teacher was and what the relationship with China was. So that was, that's pretty interesting. But anyway, it, it just, it would get tweaked.

You could just tell how it was growing and evolving. And these teachers that stepped out and said, you know, that's not the way it is. This is the way it is. Those are the ones, of course, that stand out in history. Right. And, and that, that's something that I think is so wonderful about Buddhism is that it doesn't, it seems, it's, it's not like a lot of other religions where there's just a couple of ways to understand it and that's it.

It just seems to have at its core DNA, the four noble truths of Buddhism, those don't seem to change with. Yeah. And the essential teachings of Buddhism are impermanence and interdependence and impermanence. What does it imply? Or what does it mean? Right. Well, are you asking me?

Yeah. Uh, then nothing lasts. Right. It always, everything changes. Yes. So why would Buddhism not change? Right. Right.

Right. Yes. If the, if impermanence is the engine of a thing, then the thing also has to change. That makes a lot of sense. You know, Tick Nod Han translates one of the precepts as not to attach to anything, even the teachings. Right. See, now this is where Buddhism gets so frustrating, particularly Zen.

It gives you this sense of that same feeling you get when you're trying to solve an unsolvable equation or a, a riddle, like a co-on. It's something that it can, it does seem to drive you crazy or it gives you sometimes thinking about that stuff, giving me the feeling of trying to write with my left hand. That sense of like, oh, this isn't, there's no, the, the part of the way that I interact with the universe and the mind mode of understanding, it subverts that. And so it's not, it's not a very, it's what's, I love it, but it's not, sometimes when you encounter it, it doesn't, it's not pleasant.

It doesn't give you, it doesn't seem like it gives you what you want. You know? Well, no, because, you know, everything is impermanent. Right. Right. And we want. And we want to hold on. Right.

What is Duka? Duka. Duka is, oh man, how disappointing that I can't name that right. Isn't that the first noble truth? Yes. Yes. I passed the test. So you didn't, you didn't tell me what it was.

Well, I mean, what, okay, well, I would say Duka is, Duka is that, you know, my idea of what that is keeps changing, but the, in a very basic way, it's, for example, the other night I had a terrible, a terrible hangover and I was laying in bed and I was thinking, this is not going to last. It will go away. And that made me feel better, but, but then on the other hand, you know, if, if you end up in like a wonderful love affair, or if you end up with a dog, my little dog, Fox, I will think this is not going to last.

He's going to die someday. And then that creates a sense of sadness too. So I think that the feeling of that any of these things is going to go on and on and on. It tends to either create a dilute, a state of delusion that when truth creeps in leaves you feeling terrible or just a basic state of like, I'm going to be sad forever. And both of those things are cause suffering. Yeah.

And I think that, you know, the heart of what you're saying is that Duka is, is that we want to hold on to something, right? Yes. And we're always trying to find that thing that we can hold on to. And we're not satisfied with just being in the moment because we're always either afraid of losing something or afraid that something's going to come to us that we don't like. Yes. Yes.

And, and, and right. And so in the, so then in the moment there's always this feeling of rushing. There's always this feeling of trying to get to this next place. Right. Exactly. It's, you know, just fundamental dissatisfaction. And you know, what's interesting about this is when I got interested in the Four Noble truths and I started really studying about them because, you know, I didn't like that,

you know, Buddhism said life is suffering. I didn't like that. And I didn't agree. And then yet I was thinking, but, you know, my teacher believed that and Buddha taught that. So maybe I should investigate this and see what they're really talking about. But when I first really discovered what Duka was, I thought, oh my gosh, I wrote something about that when I was in high school for the news, for our newspaper about how if only,

you know, then you get what you want. And then if only that was kind of the title of this thing that I wrote. And I thought, so, you know, we know that that's going on. But at some, at different points, we make these choices, not to believe it, to believe what we want to believe. Yes. Yes. This is, this reminds me of, I was just reading this book, it's called Spiritual Materialism

by Chogyam Trumpa. Trumpa. Yeah. Cutting through spiritual materialism. Yes. And that's a great book. It drives me, but it drives me crazy. It's been driving me up the wall because it's, it's not a, it's not a pleasant read.

Because it's not, he's not giving you what you, it's not like, he's not giving you what you want. And one of the things that's really stuck with me that I read was how disappointment is a wonderful state to be in because it's contact with reality. And he describes it as kind of setting instead of, he describes it as just setting down in like the rocky terrain of life. And that's where you're at instead of, and I thought that that's simultaneously really cool, but really frustrating.

I used to, did you, you didn't take that introduction to Buddhism class, did you? I don't, I don't think I did. I think probably at that point I was really puffed up and whatever. But anyway, so why was I going to say that? I forgot what I was going to say. Oh, we read this book in there by Pamela Chodron. At first four weeks we studied the Four Noble Truths because really every teaching of Buddhism is within the study of the Four Noble Truths.

And so we studied the Four Noble Truths for the first four weeks. And then on the fifth week, I had everybody read a book by Pamela Chodron who is a student of Cho Gyong Trimpo Rinpoche. And it's called When Things Fall Apart. And I asked them to either respond to or just write down at least one line that really affected them from each chapter. And it was then that they started to really understand how Duka worked in their lives, you know, because as they were reading through there, she really, she really encourages the

same sort of thing that you were talking about, that people, that you just walk right towards the sharp things in life, you know, and not turn around and run the other way. And each one of them in the process of their journaling would have a kind of an aha. But what was interesting is that about halfway through the book, they'd start writing, oh, man, every chapter says exactly the same thing, I'm getting so tired of this. And it sort of made me think about what you're talking about, you know, I don't like this, you know, but finishing the book, I said, no, you got to finish it, you got to, I don't care, you know, just copy the first sentence, I don't care what you do, just get something

from each chapter. And they were, you know, they were very conscientious and they did it. And, and it was, it's interesting, you know, you've got to finish that process, you just, you just can't, you just can't say, oh, you know, great, I had an aha, I'm good to go. You know, then again, we're getting stuck. Right. Yeah. Right.

I mean, as far as someone finishing the process, you are, you're, you are an ordained Zen reverend. You've been practicing Buddhism for how long have you been practicing Buddhism? I guess since I'm at my teacher, because when I was just looking for a meditation teacher when I started, and so I really don't consider myself a Buddhist. That was in 1975, which I'm, which is when I met him. And, and what was his name? Katigiri, Dainin Katigiri, Roshi, he was a Roshi. Where did you meet him?

Oh, that's a funny story. You know, I went on a trip to find a teacher because I was casting the I Ching, I was kind of a Taoist really at the time. And I was casting the I Ching every day and it kept telling me, I kept casting the same line that said, find a teacher, find a teacher. So I got a bus ticket that where I could go anywhere I wanted in the United States. And I was looking for kind of someone like Don Juan, you know, those Carlos Castaneda books.

Oh yeah. And I was looking in bus stations, you know, all these old Native American guys and I was down in Colorado and Arizona and New Mexico and Southern California and I got to Southern California and my sister was in San Diego. So we decided to go up to San Francisco together. We went up to San Francisco and I got up there and I was broke. The only thing I had was this bus ticket. I had, well, I had $25 that I had borrowed from a friend on the way.

And so, you know, I thought, well, you know, I got to make the most of this San Francisco visit and my sister went back to San Diego, she was living down there and so I was walking around and I was, I went first, I went to the Go Club because I was a big Go player. And then I went to the Zen Center because my last boyfriend had sort of introduced me to Zen. And I just went there to see what was there and somehow I got involved in this conversation and I ended up getting a job through this receptionist there and then I got a place to stay with some Zen people and three days later, Katigiri Roshi arrived on a visit he

had taught there with Suzuki Roshi and in the, I don't know, 60s, 50s, 60s, I guess. And then he had moved out to Minnesota and so he arrived for a visit and, you know, guess where I had started in Minnesota because that's where I was born and raised. So even then everybody was saying, oh, Katigiri Roshi, you must know him, you're from Minnesota and I'm like, no, I don't know him. And I ended up going to a lecture and then from there I don't know exactly what happened somehow. Someone said to me at that time, oh, you know, this is very auspicious.

When Zen gets its hooks into you and I said, oh, no, no, Zen doesn't have its hooks in me. You know, I don't really like sitting still that much and everything, but anyway, I ended up going back and just kind of being, I always say it was like a Zen vacuum. I just got sucked into it. Wow. That's an amazing vacuum to get sucked into because Zen is not initially, it's not a pleasant thing.

I know, I know. But you know, the thing is I was studying a lot of dance at the time and so I was used to my body hurting all the time and I think that actually helped me. I mean, there's never a time when you're dancing that your body doesn't hurt somewhere. And you know, that's one of the biggest problems, the biggest hurdles for people to get over is the, you know, putting your body, not holding it necessarily, but putting your body into that upright position, which most of us are slouches, you know, we've got to kind of redesign our bodies, especially I didn't start till I was 29.

So my body was pretty formed by that time. Yes. So I've gone through a lot of pain, you know. That was my recollection of the meditations that I did with you. That was the, my first realizations like this hurts, this isn't, you know, soft, hippie stuff. This is really hardcore and painful and, but you know, your body adjusts because that is a much more, you find the natural, I don't know, flow in your body when you sit that

full lotus is, I do the full lotus and it is an amazing, even any cross-legged position is, it's a pretty amazing thing how you re, how you really align your bodies. You know, when I was in college, I studied theater and one of the things in theater that you have to study is movement, stage movement. And it's more or less a dance class. And I remember that teacher, the very first thing he said to me as he said, you know, I don't think we were meant to be upright. He says, it's not natural.

And I don't know. I mean, I think there's certainly a change in consciousness when you're upright. But you have to find that upright stance that is very natural, not stiff, you know. I studied a lot of Alexander technique now. And in fact, we're doing a fair amount with Alexander technique during our retreats and things now. And yeah, it's, it's, I call it body Zen. So, so you're incorporating something from dance in with meditation technique?

Well, I can't teach Alexander technique and Alexander technique is not a dance thing. In fact, the woman I studied with, who was in her nineties, she lived out in Nebraska, which is where she was from. She had studied with FM Alexander and they, you know, if Alexander technique is a body awareness that, you know, it's, it's makes you aware that your body, everything is always changing. So you can't, there is no set upright position. You know, you can't say, oh, now I've got it because then you're stiff and that's not

natural and, you know, your blood doesn't flow right in things. I see. So it's the same thing. I mean, it incorporates impermanence into the teaching. And so it's more of the awareness of where am I holding and letting go of that every, you know, you've got to constantly be doing it. And so I studied with a woman by the name of Marjorie Barstow. She was 92 when I met her.

And what was I going to say about her? Oh, yeah, I learned a lot from her. She had studied with FM Alexander, but, you know, one of the things about her is that she had been a dancer when she met FM Alexander. She, in fact, she was a ballet dancer. And I think she met him when she was in her late twenties or something. And she completely gave up ballet. She said that it's really bad for your body.

Oh, wow. I, well, I mean, it's, I mean, I've seen, I've seen someone put a picture of Baryshnikov's feet on the internet and that's pretty scary. I don't know that I trust the internet, but I wouldn't be a bit surprised. I think I messed up my feet a lot in towns. Well, when you, so you were studying under Category, that's the name. And how long did you study under him for? Um, 15 years, because I met him in 75 and he died in 90.

And what is it, what kind of relationship did you have with him? What, what, what is it, how close is it? Is it like a friendship relationship? Or would you consider it a guru-disciple relationship? What, what is it that sort of interaction like? How does it evolve? What, what is it? Well, it's different for everybody.

It's, it's completely different for everybody. In my case, I remember saying to him at one point, I need someone who can help me to see things about myself that I can't see or something like that. You know, someone who is outside of me, who can, who can help me see. And he did that. He did that for me. He always did that for me. Uh, he, he had a lot of integrity.

Even, I mean, he made some mistakes and everybody knows about those. But I don't know, I don't know about those. We don't have to talk about them. Oh, we don't have to talk about that. Anybody that wants to know can find out. But he, you know, he suffered from his mistakes as we all do. And, you know, he, he was, you know, he was a sincere practitioner. And I think that's what inspired all of his students.

Um, his, he was very sincere and very honest. And if you caught him in a moment of arrogance and said something, he would immediately, um, you know, admit, you know, and not, you know, not say, Oh, yes, I'm so arrogant. He was just kind of like, you could just see his demeanor change. She was, Oh, were you living a monastic or were you living in a. Temple with him? Was it a group of people living in like a Zen center or.

Now we, it was the Zen center was just, uh, is it, it is still, it's just a little house across from a lake, um, in South Minneapolis. And he and his family lived upstairs. It wasn't a small house. It was like a three story house. The attic was where, uh, the category kids lived. They both had bedrooms up there and there's a bathroom up there. So it was a pretty big house.

And the second floor had like three bedrooms and, uh, and a kitchen, which one he used for his office and one he used for D'Occasin and, uh, one he and his wife used and, and then there was the downstairs, which was the meditation hall and a small ceremony hall and a porch and a kitchen. And so, uh, we all lived in the neighborhood. And then he wanted to start, um, a monastery where, you know, he could do more intensive teaching and could train priests and things. And so Minnesota Zen center bought some land down in Southeastern Minnesota.

And, but we just bought the land. We had to build on it. And it got sort of built. We started out in an army tent. We'd have practice periods down there when the weather was, you know, relatively reasonable, um, in the spring and in the fall. Wow. An army tent.

Yeah. The army tent was our meditation hall and we all lived in tents and we had a tent kitchen. Wow. And then, um, there was a, uh, electric company that had eminent domain and they wanted to put, um, a power line through our property, the property down there. And of course they ended up being able to do that, but they at least moved it to where we wanted it.

But then they, they slew a lot of trees. They, um, had to knock down a whole bunch of trees. And then the carpenters went crazy and said, you know, the carpenters at Zen center said, Oh, we should build something. So they went down there and they got brought a, a portable sawmill and a Sawyer in, and they saw it up all this, all this wood. And then it was all green, but they were just itching to build something. So they built a platform for the tent because, you know, army tents don't

have floors to them. So it got kind of muddy if it rained or something. That is so intense that you were in an army tent sleeping in the mud with a Zen Roshi teaching you how to meditate. Well, you know, and then eventually, um, you know, a meditation hall got built in a cabin and it's still pretty primitive down there. We were just visiting there, um, recently and it's still, you know, pretty loosely slung together, so to speak.

Would you, would you consider your life to be an extreme life compared to perhaps the way most people live? Well, I don't know what you mean by extreme. You know, I mean, in a good, good, good extreme. I mean, you know, we have this sort of, um, a society that is based on Duke, a society that is this, you know, a hypnotic swirl coming from TV, uh, that's teaching the opposite of impermanence. It's teaching us that we're safe.

It gives the impression that we're in some kind of very safe, endless dream. Uh, and a lot of people never leave that place, but you're a person who it, a young age went on a pilgrimage, found a Zen teacher, lived in a tent. This is not a standard life. Yeah, that's true. But you know, from a very young age, I was interested in spirituality. So for me, it doesn't seem so unusual. You know, I went to Catholic schools at the age of five.

I wanted to be a priest, but, you know, they told me I couldn't be a priest. So then I wanted to be a nun. You know, I mean, that was kind of the way my mind was geared for most of my life. You know, uh, you were, you were talking earlier about how your, your body, when you, when you started meditating, your body had already formed when you started sitting in the lotus position, full lotus. Um, in the same way, so many people's lives fully form and crystallize and become this thing.

And they hear stories of people like you and people like Ramdas and people who heard the call and just went for it. And I, I think it, it, maybe it stirs something in them where they feel like, well, maybe I should, maybe I should do this too. Maybe I should throw off this saddle of my life that I've been wearing and just go for it. Do you think that's a healthy move? Yeah, I think everybody should do it.

I mean, we'd find a way. That's the thing. You know, I got to a point in my life after I came back from Japan and I was living in a small cabin, you know, in the mountains here and I really didn't have any income. I would occasionally be invited to give a lecture here or there or a retreat. But I got, one time I just, I just sat down and I said, you know, I don't, I don't know where my next week's food is coming from, you know, and, and then

all of a sudden I realized I was in the midst of so much food. I just needed to learn how to recognize it. You know, these mountains here, you know, I mean, what, what, what was it like before we cultivated the kind of lifestyle before the kind of lifestyle that we live was cultivated? People were growing their own food. They were finding, they were new, how to recognize food. I mean, we think we have to live in a certain way, but we don't.

Yes. A comfortable way. Well, we call it comfortable, but there's, it's not so comfortable. There's a lot of challenges in that comfort. What, what would you consider those challenges to be? Fear of losing. Right. Right.

So you sort of underneath it all, you walk around with this specter of, of losing all of this comfort and being, uh, you know, and thinking that you can't survive if you don't have it, you know, it breaks people. Right. That is what, that is the other side of it, isn't it? The other side of it is this sort of in this gun to the head, isn't it? Like this, this, this phantasmal gun that is always at everyone. No, it's more like in the westerns or the movies where they shoot bullets

at people's feet and make them dance. You got to keep moving. You got to keep moving. You got to keep working or if you don't keep moving and you don't keep working, then you won't pay the mortgage and you can't feed the kids and you can't feed the, and that's a big one. Feeding the kids. Yeah.

You know, I think, you know, parents, it's almost, it's like a whole different story. Yes. Uh, I understand how, how parents fear for the life of their children. It's interesting. You know, I mean, it's more than you will fear for your own life. Oh yeah. I mean, I've seen it happen with my friends who have kids.

This transformation happens. It's really beautiful. Yeah. But, you know, there are alternative ways to live and, you know, I, with parents, you know, it means that they'd have to do a quick change and I don't, I think it's more difficult. It would be more difficult for parents to kind of just walk away things the way they are, but I think something's got to change dramatically in our culture.

Cause it's, you know, people, people in this culture are not happy. No, no, and they're, and it's a very tragic kind of unhappiness because they don't, I don't think a lot of them even realize that they're unhappy. They think that that feeling, well, that's the nature of Duka. Right. And what, well, you know, that is a thing that sort of that, that aspect of Zen, I, Trump, I remember reading in cutting through spiritual materialism. He, it's almost as easy.

I may be recalling this incorrectly, but I think he says, don't go, if you can avoid going down this path, don't go down it because you have to finish it. Right. That's true. That's true. So, you know, Trump is not Zen, by the way, FYI, yes, Tibetan, not that it, not that it really matters that much, but it is a totally different style. Yeah.

It is a different style. I think in it, and it's, it seems a little less frustrating than Zen. Zen is very frustrating. Yeah. Well, whatever for you, maybe. Well, I guess it is frustrating. It is. I mean, truth is frustrating, isn't it?

Yes, exactly. Yes. Yes. It's very frustrating. And the closer you get to it, the hotter it feels. Yes, that, that's right. And that's the thing that I, I often try to avoid. And I think, I think a great many people try to avoid it, but, um, well, I want

to talk a little bit more about a person who, because I think this is a thing like, you know, you know, you're talking about the culture needs to change and not to sound like a hemp vending new age hippie. But I think I do feel like there's some kind of awakening happening. And I do feel like that, um, access to the, to the kind of information that you're sharing right now is increasing and increasing and increasing. But as it increases, it meets people who are, who do have kids and have a job. And they, they can't go live in an army tent.

What, what's something that they can do right now to start down this path? Cause I think a lot of people are really called to it, but they just don't know where to begin. You know, one of the things, uh, that I have been very interested in, uh, since I was at Minnesota Zen Center in the late seventies is the, um, is getting children involved. And one of the reasons I got children involved to begin with was because their parents are come to the, coming to the Zen Center and they were kind

of resenting it cause they didn't really understand where their parents were. And I wanted them to get a comfort level so that when they came to Zen Center, they, you know, they knew their way around and they, and they knew what their parents were doing and everything. And so I started inviting kids and it's kind of morphed over the years. It's just, it, it expanded into a family meditation at Minnesota Zen Center and family weekends down at our monastery, Hokyoji and southeastern Minnesota.

And when it came out here, we started at Zen Center, Bashfield, and now we've got a big family meditation thing going on here. But one of the things that I'm discovering is that it's as much of an opportunity for parents as it is for the kids, because it's hard for parents to find a way to incorporate Zen practice into their lives. And we all need something that we can keep going back to, you know, or keep being a part of. There are, you know, whole families that are involved here.

The kids come with their parents and they meditate with their parents sometimes and in addition to come as they get older. And so I think, I think the main thing is we all can, can know what kinds of changes we can make in our lives to simplify our lives. But in order to access our own insights, we have to take some time to ask your roshus to say, sit down and shut up. You know, that's what Soto Zen is. It's, it's the practice is called Chikantaza.

It means just sit. You know, it means just sit. You don't have to do anything when you're sitting there. Just sit, just sit, sit in the end. The only thing that's emphasized is the posture. And Dogen is very clear about upright posture and sitting in that full lotus or the half lotus of, you know, he doesn't even say if you can, I say if you can.

And he talks about the posture, but other than that, he says, don't, don't try to do it. You don't have to do anything. And, and cutting your roshi, you know, he translates translated Chikantaza as just sit down and shut up. Um, to get into a little bit more detail about that posture. Can you talk about that a little bit? Cause I remember, I still remember you describing how to hold my hands in a

mudra that was kind of a circle that you can push a piece of rice paper through the distance between your thumbs. Um, can you talk a little bit about the posture, the, the, what, what the lotus position is and, um, the, that aspect of this form of meditation? Mm hmm. Yeah. You put, um, we use cushions to hold up our, um, our lower back. So we use, just use like just on the front part of, uh, we use round

cushions. We also use cushions that are crescent shaped called smile cushions. And you sit inside the smile or you sit on the, uh, on the, on a third of the around cushion called the Zafu. And, um, and then put one foot on, up on one thigh where your hip meets your thigh and then put your other foot up on your other side. And that's the cross legged part of it. And then you take your, uh, left hand and put it inside your right hand.

You can line up your middle fingers and put your thumb tips together, barely touching, it makes an ellipse or an oval. And, uh, as you mentioned, they should only be touching, touching so lightly that if you had a piece of paper between your thumb tips, someone could pull it out and your thumb tips wouldn't move. So it's a very, you know, light touch. And then set your hands down on your heel if you're in the full lotus. Um, so that positions your hands so that your thumb tips are just a few inches

below your navel. Um, so if you don't sit in the full lotus, if you sit in like what, what I call the Burmese style where both of your legs are down or, um, well, actually, if you sit in the half lotus, you can still put your hand on your heel. But if you sit in the Burmese style, then you need to have something like a towel or something that you can set your hands on. Because what you want to get them so that your arms are rounded. Okay.

Um, and, uh, it's described sometimes as if you put a raw egg under your arm pits, you would, you don't want to squash it and you don't want to drop it. Oh, wow. So that's the kind of space between your armpits. So it's, it's, you're forming almost two, you're forming two circles, one with your hands and one with your arms. Well, it's not so much a circle with your hands. It's more like an oval or else any lips.

Got it. Mine makes more of an ellipse. I don't know why that is, but, uh, and then what was it going to say? I don't know. Just a second. It'll come. Okay. So, oh, oh, you know, yesterday I was reading something about mudras.

People often say to me, uh, cause this, this hand position is considered a mudra. And people often say to me though, that, um, uh, what is the meaning of mudras? And, and I say, I don't know, but, you know, if you put your hand into, into that position and you'll kind of get a sense of what effect it has on you. You know, that's the way I've always felt about them. There's different mudras that we use, different hand positions that we use. Um, but yesterday I was reading something online about mudras and it showed all these basic mudras.

And it was talking about how when you put your hands into these mudras and put them in different either on your, on your thighs or on your knees, that it, each one of these mudras had a relationship to some organ in your body. And if you breathe, it gave a breathing in for five and breathing out for four. No, breathing in for four and breathing out for five counts. So, you know, so something like that. And I thought, wow, yeah, I can, it's understandable because when you're in this position, you also are being kind of aware of your breathing, breathing

into your abdomen, taking your breath all the way down to your abdomen. And, and that, that, so that, is that the breathing pattern when you're sitting in the, in this position? I've never heard of that breathing pattern before. And so does then doesn't talk about things like breathing patterns. There are no techniques at all. But, you know, if you do yogic exercises, mudras are from the yogic tradition, which predates Buddhism.

But that's a, that's a, forgive me, sorry. Go ahead. Well, the, you know, you say, well, in, in this form of Zen, you do not, you, you do nothing, but your body is doing an awful lot. That's true. Yeah. But it makes it a very body-mind experience, which actually is one of the reasons why I was drawn towards this meditation at one point.

I, I wasn't thinking Zen particularly, but I was thinking I wanted something that incorporated my body so that I wasn't, my spiritual practice was not separate from my, from my body practice. Cause I was dancing and, you know, and my friends are all doing TM, which really doesn't incorporate your body. You're just supposed to kind of relax your body. You know, it doesn't incorporate your body as an exercise. If I don't do Zazen, if I don't do, you know, Zah means sitting and Zen

means meditation. If, if I don't do it on a regular basis, you know, my body starts to stiffen up in certain ways. It's like morning exercise. Do you do it every morning? Um, you, not, not every morning. We have sleep in mornings. As I get older, I find that I need that kind of option.

I'm not so young anymore. So I, um, I, if you have just a few more minutes, I, I just have a couple more questions for you. Um, yeah, can I just say one more thing about the posture? Yes, please. You put your tongue on the roof of your mouth and, um, breathe through your nose into your abdomen and you don't have to, you know, I don't have to count your breasts or anything and just be aware of breathing into your abdomen.

Be aware of breathing into your abdomen. I usually start my meditation when it's a few deep breaths into my abdomen. And then in so does, then we keep our eyes open, um, not completely open and not, not closed and just looking down at about a 45 degree angle. So that's all I have to say about that. Oh, I still remember you teaching me that for the first time. Uh, now I just wanted to ask, cause I think some people are listening to this and they're probably thinking, I want to try this.

Uh, and they don't have a Zafu cushion. Is there something else that they can use? Well, I started out by folding my pillow in half. You just want to elevate your lower back enough. I think a regular sleeping pillow is probably about the best thing because you know, it, it, um, it, it helps, it can help you to balance your body. Even the round cushions, I've started using, uh, one of the smile cushions because it, I, my bad body is, it's easier to balance it on, you know,

to get it balanced. And if you're sitting in this position for 40 minutes or even 30 minutes and you do it frequently, especially like in a retreat, you know, you could harm your body, uh, if you're sitting crooked. Oh gosh, I know that. I mean, I'm, yes, it is, this is the thing. The, this lotus position sets off fire alarms in your brain. Yeah, it does.

It does believe me. It brings up a lot of stuff and it really, you know, it's sort of when you, that straighter you get your body and the more you breathe so that your lungs can get, you know, really a full breath, the more, uh, stuff that you have kind of stored in your body, um, you know, things you don't want to deal with or things you're afraid of or something, the more it comes up and you just have to face those fears one after another. And in the beginning, it's, it's very challenging after you've done it for a

while, the process becomes more familiar. So, uh, you don't, you know, you don't add tension to what's already there. Right. Right. And that's, that's, that's this process. Uh, that's part of this, this process. And, uh, you know, some people don't want to experience something this heavy duty. Uh, but I, you know, just hearing you talking about it makes me want to start

doing it, but I'm not inclined to go to, uh, uh, do you have to do this in a community setting? Do you have to go to a Zen center? Do you, do you need to go, do you need a teacher? Um, yes, yes, and yes, um, and yes, because, um, it's, it's an interesting thing when you sit too much by yourself, this is, this comes from Doug and it comes from my own teacher. Uh, if you sit too much by yourself, you're only seeing your meditation

from your own perspective and it's sort of cycling through the same old stuff. And when you're sitting with other people, you don't really consciously recognize it, but there's a lot of communication that goes on in silence and somehow, you know, we're teaching each other and helping each other and inspiring each other and pushing each other's buttons. And so Sangha is very much emphasized. Sangha is the community is very much emphasized, particularly in Dogen's tradition, Sangha is emphasized in all traditions, but in some traditions, it's

only considered like the monastic community, but in the Soto Zen tradition and really in the Mahayana Buddhism, um, it's, it's considered, um, at all practitioners, practitioners together. And Katagiri Roshi used to say, even say family is Sangha. Oh, cool. You know, so Sangha is very much emphasized. Having a teacher is really important. Um, I found that Katagiri Roshi would push me at times when I, when I wouldn't

have pushed myself, you know, he just kind of not really pushed, he just gave me a little nudge and, uh, it was, it, it was just, just, you know, that's, that's the value of having a teacher who's very in tune and who practices himself. I mean, he had a very strong practice, um, is that he, he's not, he says things that just the right moment and probably he didn't even remember saying the things that he did to us, but he, he was very, um, he was a very, um, a very good teacher in that way.

Yeah. You know, I think that, uh, one funny thing about meditation and spirituality is sometimes people get afraid of the idea of a teacher because for some reason with meditation, it's the one thing that you like to believe you don't need a teacher for. And any other thing, if you want to learn to drive a car, if you want to learn to read, if you want to learn to dance, you always, yeah, of course, you need a teacher, but with this thing, I think it's people like to believe that's

not necessary, but then also I think people hear this who maybe live in some part of the country or the world where they're not really close to a Zen center, they're not in Asheville. They don't, there's not an Asheville Zen center near them. What can they do to find a teacher? Well, you're asking the wrong person. Cause I went from Minnesota to California to find a teacher. It's so happened that my teacher was in Minnesota, which is where I didn't want

to be, but, you know, so I, I feel like if you really want to pursue a spiritual practice, you'll do what you have to do. And, you know, kind of your real, she wasn't like a real famous teacher at the time, he wasn't, he was well known in San Francisco and Minnesota, kind of, that was it, but he wasn't, now he's gotten a little bit well known because people have made his lectures into books. But I think, you know, you'd be surprised, I say, don't look for the famous teachers particularly, just prepare yourself.

And I, I do admit that I think what really helped me to find category Roshi at the time was that I was doing meditation every day by myself. So I don't say that you should never meditate by yourself, but I do think it's important to meditate with other people. And when you start meditating, your teacher will be there. You know, there's a, isn't there a saying when you are ready, the teacher will appear? Yes. Yes.

So, so maybe people who don't have access to a teacher right away, maybe they could just have friends come over and meditate. Yeah. Or just get started. You know, I used to just meditate for 15 minutes, twice a day. That's the way I started. And, and I feel like that helped me see that I needed to do something more, which was find a teacher.

So I went on this quest. You know, of course, I had the each thing to keep reminding me, but, you know, I wish we could talk longer about the each thing because I love it so much. Well, God of your Roshi used to tell us not to use the each thing. Why? Well, I think he felt like people were depending on it too much. And, and you know, that's really not in the practice of soto Zen and the practice of soto Zen, you really do rely on yourself.

You know, your teacher is important as a guide. But, you know, I think there are some Zen teachers that that maybe are very dominant and think they're the they're in charge of your life. But that's not really what a good teacher does. A good teacher is just available and nudges you when you when you need to be nudged. But the whole point is to help you recognize your own true nature. Yes.

Yes. And, and, and, um, yeah, I, you know, the older I get, the more I do see that you clearly need a teacher because, yeah, I totally understand that when I was younger, I didn't like that idea very much for some reason. But now I see that. And I think people who are, you know, there are people in Asheville who listen to this podcast who maybe don't know about your Zen center. How can people, is there a way for people to get in touch with you?

Or is, can you recommend, how can people find you? Well, I don't think there's anybody in Asheville who doesn't know me, but I know right now. I mean, but anyway, yeah, um, well, all the Buddhists in town, we all know each other, but, um, also greattree temple.org is our website. Um, also Zen center of Asheville is still functioning in Asheville and easy to find, if you put my name in, in Google, great, greattree temple comes right up. Well, and I'll have all these links on my website or you're, you know,

thanks, you don't happen to be on Twitter. Do you take, no, no, I don't, I don't really even know what, how Twitter works to be honest with you. I'm kind of afraid of it. Oh wow. Yeah. I mean, I don't blame you. Um, it definitely is a, a real attention sucker for sure.

Yeah. Um, thank you so much for giving me this hour. I am very grateful to you for this. Thank you. It's so nice to talk to you. Yeah. Okay. Well, thank you.

Thank you, Tejo. And, uh, I hope that we will, we'll talk again soon. Yes. Thanks a lot. And, uh, send me the, um, information about how to get to your website. Just put your name in Google or. Yes. I'll send you a link to this episode when it goes up and I'll send you all the

information. Okay. Thank you. Thanks. Bye, Tejo. Bye-bye. Thanks for listening, guys. That was the Dunkin' Trussell Family Hour podcast with Tejo Munich.

You can follow me on Twitter at Dunkin' Trussell. And if you like the podcast, why not give us a rating on iTunes? God bless you. See you later. One Mississippi, two Mississippi. Keep counting at those stop signs. Alex will stop and doesn't go until she counts to five McSweeney because you are a safe driver and like most drivers who sign up for snapshot from progressive,

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