Dynamic Dialogue with Danny Matranga - 30 - Joe Grinstain: Borrowing from Baseball, Shoulder + Thoracic Spine + More

Episode Date: May 13, 2020

In this episode, we sit down with Joe Grinstain of Hyperthrive Athletics.When I first heard Joe speak a year ago, I was absolutely blown away and knew I had to have him on the podcast.Joe is the Director of Strength and Performance at Hyperthrive Athletics in Sacramento, CA, where he was born and raised. Hyperthrive is owned and operated by Joe and his brothers, Nolan and Aaron. Joe is dedicated to his craft, and passionate about providing the highest quality coaching to his athletes and hometown community.To keep up with Joe, and the awesome HTA team:Follow Joe on Instagram: HEREFollow Hyperthrive on Instagram: HEREListen to the Strength Roots Podcast: HERESupport the Show.

How's it going, everybody? Welcome into another episode of the Dynamic Dialogue podcast. Today's episode is going to blow your mind on all things sports performance, shoulder mobility, shoulder rehabilitation, prehabilitation, proper training of the shoulder, thoracic spine, and a bunch of other really exciting stuff. This is a podcast that's going to get into some pretty awesome details, so buckle up and get ready to go. We sit down with Joe Grinstein, the director of strength and performance at Hyperthrive Athletics in Sacramento. Hyperthrive

is owned and operated by Jonah's brothers, Nolan and Aaron, and Joe's dedicated to his craft. He's very passionate about providing high quality coaching to athletes in the town he grew up. Sacramento, born and raised a California kid just like myself and one of the brightest young minds in the industry. Without further ado, here's my conversation with Joe Grinstein. So Joe, man, how's it been? How you been doing? Good, man. How about you? You know, not bad. Things have been a little bit different lately, particularly given the COVID-19 situation and working out out of my garage. But for the most part, you know, I feel as though things have been pretty good. Yeah. Yeah, I know. I feel like every single

conversation or podcast has a kind of intro with that to set the stage for what's kind of going on in the world. Exactly. The obligatory admittance that yes, we're still locked in our house and it does quite suck. For those of you who aren't familiar with Joe, I'll give you a little bit of background. I warned Joe ahead of time I was going to tell this story, but I didn't give him any of the details. And I'll let him tell you more about his journey to where he's at. But I met Joe in 2018, the first year of the Bay Area Sports Performance Symposium. And we both sat at the table in the front row in the very center. He was there with his brothers, with whom he

co-owns Hyper Threat Athletics. And we were sitting there watching the presentation, just talking shop. The next year, I went back to the same symposium, sat in the same table. The only thing that was different was Joe was speaking this year, and he wasn't sitting at the table anymore. And I remember, I believe he went first or very early. And it was the best presentation at the table anymore. And I remember, I believe he went first or very early and it was the best presentation at the entire symposium. And I couldn't help but just sit there like, oh my gosh, I'm watching the ascension of somebody in the sports performance space who's got a lot to offer. And I just knew like, it was kind of one of those star is born moments where you see somebody with

a lot of talent, really, really shining in their element. And I was like, okay, I put a note in my binder, like when I finally do launch the podcast, we need to get Joe on here because he absolutely crushed it. And it was kind of a cool transformation to see somebody in the space go through as a professional from hungry conference attendee to high level conference speaker in a little bit under a year. And I think that kind of summarizes a lot about who you are as a coach, but how did you get to where you are now as somebody who speaks so well to so many things, who's essentially running a sports performance facility in California? Tell people about that journey. Yeah. Well, first off, thank

you. You know, the same things that you seem to admire in me are the things that I admire in you, your ability to eloquently, you know, simplify really detailed concepts and spread those with, you know, a high level of entertainment. I absolutely love the gym shark girl videos. It's one of my favorite things on the internet. But yeah, that experience, I mean, I guess from the other side of it, like you didn't see me in the bathroom freaking out like five minutes before that. So, uh, extremely nervous. That was my first conference presentation, but, um, I think it was one of the best experiences I've had in my life because it was one of those

experiences where before and kind of right before that moment, you're like, can I actually do this? It's going into the experience thinking, you know, I, I, I might succeed, but there's a chance that I like fail at this. And I think that's one of the most rewarding experiences is when you have an experience like that and you come out on the other side and it was just like such a weight lifted and just such an incredible opportunity it was kind of like coming back full circle because i was i'm from sacramento born and raised got to do my first conference there in front of my family and friends and people who've mentored me for so long um but that's just something i'm extremely passionate about i think that's what kind of drove me into the field of strength and conditioning is i like

being in the teacher kind of role. And one of the most rewarding things for me is when something clicks and you can see that happen in the person that you're teaching. So doing that on a large scale like that was really, really rewarding. So like you said, I run hyperthrive athletics with my two older brothers, Aaron and Nolan Grinstein. And we've been in our space now for four years. So it's been

really, really cool to watch it grow and build into what it is. Um, work definitely for the most part with rotational athletes. So baseball and softball players, that's kind of right in our wheelhouse, but then we work with adults on top of that in a small group setting. So still coaching my parents who are in their mid sixties, which is awesome. So definitely get, um, a little bit of everything in that aspect. And I think that kind of keeps us on our toes as a coach and as a business, which is a really cool aspect of it as well. No, it's awesome. And if I'm not mistaken, you got into strength and conditioning as somebody who had a background in athletics,

but then chose to follow the strength and conditioning path. And I think you interned with Eric, if I'm not mistaken. And before we dive into it, you know, I would be remiss if we didn't talk a little bit about how it is that you kind of went from athlete into the coach you are now, because we have a lot of coaches who listen, most people are still fitness enthusiasts. And trust me, we're going to get to the training stuff. But for those out there who are like, man, how do you go from athlete to gym owner to conference speaker? Talk a little bit about your development as a professional. It's such a windier road than you would expect to see. I actually went into college as a graphic design major. So I had no intention of coaching, had no intention of being in the fitness industry.

It was just always something that came along with athletics that I was involved in growing up. So growing up was involved in every single sport, but even in high school, still continued to play football, wrestled, and I played baseball all year round. And then snowboarded all winter. So it was always a portion of my life. I was always in the gym. My oldest brother, Aaron, was probably the first one to commit to that as a career and a passion. I definitely was influenced in that way. I remember being a graphic design major and being in three-hour computer design classes. 30 minutes in, I would have to go take a walk around campus because I couldn't handle just sitting down and being on a computer. I made the decision, this is not for me.

Spent like a year and a half undeclared, didn't know what I wanted to do, but was in the gym every single day. And then so made the decision, okay, if I do want to pursue this in a way, I'm going to get experience that allows me to really make an informed decision. So I got my first internship at Capital Strength and Performance here in Sacramento, followed that up by the University of Alabama. I was there for five months. Then UC Berkeley here back in California, five months there. And then I went to Cressy Sports Performance and I was at the Massachusetts location. And obviously, if you're in the fitness industry, you know Eric Cressy. If you work with athletes in general, you've been influenced by him because he's had such a massive influence on the strength and conditioning world as a whole.

Everyone kind of, even if you don't know it's his concepts, some of the concepts you're using and that really influence your philosophies are Eric's concepts. And so learned a ton from him as well as the amazing staff that he put together there, because they do a great job of educating their staff and really pushing them to continue to grow that business completely outside of, of Eric. So learned a ton from the coaches there. And then that's when I came back to Sacramento. And that's when I was forced to take what I had learned as an intern, and create my own philosophy, my own ideals, my own beliefs. And that's when everything was challenged, right? Like when you're an intern, you're not necessarily

writing programs. You're kind of doing what you're told, cleaning up the weight room. It's obviously a great learning experience, but being thrown into the fire in the leadership role as a coach, that's when you really start to sharpen your ax. Yeah, no. And it shows like, if you've seen Joe's content on Instagram, you can tell the way he delivers concepts to his athletes that he's grown increasingly more confident with practice. But I like that story because so many coaches are asking me what certification should I get? Should I do this? Should I do that? And I think that one of the most underlooked avenues for development as a professional in our space is through a mentorship or an internship type of experience where, yeah, you know, unfortunately you do have to eat a little shit here and there and clean up some weights and mop some floors. But the humbling

nature that that kind of, it kind of puts you in a situation where you are the learner and to be a great teacher you have to first be a great learner and i think that shows in a lot of what you do and it actually is interesting the graphic design thing makes a lot of sense because your powerpoint was very very well put together and i remember watching our point it wasn't me though we had We had somebody design that. Oh, that makes sense. We have a great design team. So I cannot take any credit for that. Mario Esco on Instagram, if you want that fire PowerPoint.

It was a fantastic PowerPoint. So without further ado, we will get into some training concepts. Now, Joe works primarily with athletes who do overhead sports or rotational sports like baseball, which a lot of people would be right to assume you do train baseball players a little bit differently because there are some unique elements of their sport. intense strain on the shoulder and spine, but usually remain quite healthy and have quite a bit of longevity if they do it right. And I think there's tremendous carryover to general population fitness. But let's first talk a little bit about the anatomy of the shoulder. This is a joint and this is a structure that a lot of people struggle with, particularly lifters. Why is it that the shoulder can be so problematic? And why is it that it's so mobile in its nature? So what creates the unique abilities of the shoulder also creates the issues that most people deal with, right? Because it is so mobile, it has so many degrees of freedom

that allows us to perform the acts we do like throwing, but it also sets people up who aren't creating enough stability to have instability issues because it has so many degrees of freedom. And where most people, I think one good place to start is when most people think anatomically of the shoulder, they're thinking of the glenohumeral joint, right? So we think of just that, that shoulder movement, right? Obviously like delt raises, whatever it is, when people think good work, they're thinking that. But then you also have to think that shoulder joint connects to the shoulder blade. What most people refer to as a shoulder blade. That is the, um, the, the joint that is working there is the scapula and how that interacts with the thoracic spine. So the thorax, right? So that glenohumeral joint

is obviously attached to the scapula. That scapula is attached and kind of sits and glides along the rib cage. And that movement is so absolutely important to the foundation of shoulder stability and strength. So when most people are talking about shoulder stability or maybe shoulder stability exercises, they're really talking about the rotator cuff and rotator cuff exercises. But if we look at the actual data that looks at both glenohumeral injuries and rotator cuff injuries, majority of them stem from the scapula's inability to stabilize itself. So two thirds, I believe it's two thirds of rotator cuff injuries stem from scapular instability. And in almost every glenohumeral injury you see 100% of the time, almost there's going to be scapular stability issues. Right. And so, um, really when people are thinking about the shoulder joint and shoulder health, they should be looking a lot more deeply at the relationship between the thorax or the thoracic spine and how that integrates and works alongside of the scapula.

So the shoulder blade, right? And when you're looking at another thing, kind of diving into the anatomy of it, the only osseous or bone to bone joint connection that the shoulder blade has with the axial skeleton. So the rest of the skeleton is at the collarbone, right? The, the, um, sternoclavicular joint, right? Other than that, it's all soft tissue and connective tissue. So in theory, looking at that, the shoulder blade should be a quite a mobile joint, right? It's, it's not locked into place. Um, and that's where it's

a lot of coordinative demand. So when we're looking at, um, and I'm probably diving in a little bit deeper than you want me to. No, it's actually really good because I think what you're hitting on is the misconception that the shoulder is just the glenohumeral joint. And if you look at the issues that a lot of lifters, athletes or gen pop fitness people have, it stems from that interaction the scapula has with the thorax or the back of the rib cage and how all these structures work together. So you're actually laying a really good foundation for people to understand that this is a complex anatomical situation going on. And if you want to train for a long time and not get fucked up, you need to understand that these things need to be coordinating perfectly. So by all means, continue. Okay. So yeah, I'll try to simplify as much as I can. So the muscles that basically work in order to

stabilize that shoulder joint, that's, that's what we can focus on as far as a training aspect. What can we really affect through our training? Right? So one, we need to look really, really deeply at the serratus anterior. So what the serratus anterior does is it comes from the front of our rib cage, right? And it goes back and attaches to the inside portion of the scapula. So if we think about, we look at the rib cage, the scapula just sits right on top of the ribs and a good relationship with that rib cage is if it can glide nice and easy over the rib cage. And when we're talking about the serratus anterior, it's going to move our scapula forward. So it's going to move and kind of glide around the rib cage forward. It's going to spread itself.

And then when we look on the other aspect of that, kind of the rhomboids work in the other way, right? So the relationship between the serratus anterior and the rhomboids, and specifically a lot of where people lack the mobility to get into good positions, almost everybody can horizontally push and pull, right? Obviously, it's less likely that you have an issue there. We have a higher issue with getting overhead and keeping a good position and a good relationship in the glenohumeral joint. So the muscles that play a role in creating a healthy overhead position are one, the serratus anterior and the low trap. So the low portion of the trapezius muscle. In order to create a good overhead position, and this is where most people

struggle with, we need to have two things. We need to have scapular upward rotation and posterior tilt. So upward rotation is that scapula sliding up and out on the rib cage. And that's going to put our glenohumeral joint in a position where it can still be stable. Cause when you look at the glenohumeral joint, like your hip socket, how the head of the femur is nice and deep in that socket, it's a little bit more stable. When you look at the glenohumeral joint, it's like a golf ball sitting on top of a tee. There's not a lot from a bony perspective that's holding it in there.

So in order for it to stay in a good, healthy, solid relationship, that shoulder blade has to have quite a bit of movement to keep it to where it is centrated within that joint. So in order to get in that upward rotation position, it needs to slide up and out on the rib cage and then posteriorly tilt. So tilt back, right? So the top of it is tilting back. So the two muscles that work there are the serratus anterior and the low trap.

So when we're talking about shoulder stability and getting overhead, those the two muscles that really really need to work well i think that's really big because again continuing to lay this foundation for how it is that this shoulder works and how as lifters and athletes we go about making sure it stays safe we're touching on muscles that a lot of people who are listening are probably like oh you mean there's more to my shoulder than just my deltoid? And there's 17 muscles, if I'm not mistaken, that influence the scapula in some way, shape, or form. And for those who are listening, you know where your serratus are. If you've ever been lean enough, you've probably seen them. They're the little gill-looking muscles that sit on top of your ribs, just below your pecs. They kind of look like, like I said, like fish gills. Now, a lot of people

probably didn't even know that there were a lower fiber portion of the trapezius. So now that we've established, right, there's a lot of bony landmarks. There's a lot of muscles involved here. And we're particularly talking about how overhead stuff can be tricky. How have you, with the overhead athletes that you've worked with, gone about helping people maintain safety in that overhead position through training shoulder stability, and then perhaps expand if they can't get overhead, how is it that we get that mobility? Cause a lot of people can bench and row all day, but they cannot press overhead. Yeah. So, um, and just to, uh, kind of explain a little bit more of the serratus anterior and just so everybody gets a really good idea of where it is and then

I'll get back on topic here. So an easy way to find it is if you put your fingertips kind of right on your ribs and feel around on your ribs. And then if you make a fist and put your arms straight out in front, like you're doing a bench press, and then I want you to reach as far as you can even further, you'll feel those muscles kind of pop up in between the ribs. That's your serratus anterior. It's like a serrated knife. That's where serratus comes from. It's saw like, so it's going to kind of go in between the ribs there. So good way to know where it is and good way to feel how it works. But when we're talking about shoulder care, there's basically two things that I'm trying to accomplish when I'm looking at shoulder care.

So one, I'm trying to get the shoulder blade, like we've been talking about the scapula into a healthier position. So, um, coordinatively be able to move itself into a healthier position. So, um, coordinatively be able to move itself into a healthier position and then to actual stability within the glenohumeral joint, which is going to come from actually working on the rotator cuff muscles, which a lot of people think of the rotator cuff. Um, they think like a lot of pitchers you hear, like they're going to, they think they're going to throw harder from working on the rotator cuff. Basically the rotator cuff's job is to keep a healthy relationship where that, um, that humerus is sitting really, really well within that joint. Um, so that's the two, the two things I'm focusing on a really good job of sequencing and coordinating upward rotation or whatever movement you need for

your movement. So just the ability to coordinate movement of the scapula and a healthy relationship at the glenohumeral joint created through a stable rotator cuff. Nice. So when you look at traditional movements that are intended to create better upward rotation or better scapular rhythm, getting people into a better overhead position in general. What you'll most likely see is people doing stuff like serratus slides, wall slides, prone trap raises, Y raises, you know, you'll see banded Y raises, chest supported Y raises, all kinds of that. And really what they're trying to do there is they are trying to increase the stability and the strength of those muscles that we had talked about before that are really, really important as far as scapular stability

and getting it into upward rotation, which are the serratus anterior and the low trap. Where I have an issue with that, not necessarily an issue, where I've expanded my philosophy with our athletes, a lot of baseball players have an issue where I've expanded my philosophy with our athletes. A lot of baseball players have an issue with getting overhead in a really quality position without flaring the ribs or other compensation patterns. So what we would do in the past is we would really attack that with trap raises, wall slides, serrated slides of all kinds. And I just didn't think that we were getting the results we should be getting with the amount of attention that we put into it. So I was like, okay, where's the disconnect? And what I kind of see as the disconnect is it's almost like how bodybuilders

are training muscles and not movement. We were really honing in on these muscles, but were we coordinatively challenging them to actually get into healthy positions? And I think one kind of good side note is there's something, the idea of phase transitions. The basic concept of phase transitions is we cannot assume that low velocity or low force movements will have carryover into high velocity or high force movement. So an example of this, a low velocity movement like walking, when you're going from a walk to a sprint, it's not a gradual linear relationship. Obviously at some point it's going to be a super awkward walk or you have to turn it into a jog,

right? So that's a phase transition. It's a different movement pattern. And we can't assume that training walking is going to improve our ability to sprint. Yeah. So you can't make that jump and say low velocity movements, increase high velocity movements. So why would I assume that a Y raise or a trap raise would carry over into a movement as dynamic as overhead lifting even or something way more dynamic like an overhead throwing sport? It just doesn't make sense that jump would, would happen. So I was like, okay, how can we, cause in order to create

carryover, you either have to match the speed, the velocity or the force of the movement. So how can we increase the speed or the force, or even just the coordinative demands of what's going on here? And then I was having a conversation with Tony Mikla, who's a physical therapist in our area. And he was saying, basically, like we talked about earlier, there's only one osseous connection. So the role of the scapula is to be a mediator in the relationship between what's going on in the thoracic spine in the rib cage, and where the hand is intending to go. And the shoulder blade is going to create a relationship that's gonna make those two happen, right? So this is where we have introduced

a lot more things like kettlebell skill work. So when I mean kettlebell skill work, I'm thinking about kettlebell windmills, half get-ups, full get-ups. And what I see as the benefit or the really, really interesting thing that's going on here is one, we're introducing force into the equation because the kettlebell in the hand is obviously

just introducing force. Yeah. And from there, when we're doing a half get up or a windmill, we're asking the T-spine to rotate, extend, flex, whatever it's doing in that movement. And it's the shoulder blade is having to react to one, the force coming down from the hand and having to coordinate that hand staying straight up to the sky or that kettlebell is coming down while also thinking about what's happening at the thoracic spine and at the rib cage. So it's a lot more coordinatively demanding than something like a

trap raise. But now where I'm starting to kind of piece the puzzles together, and I was actually just having a conversation last night with Kyle Rogers, one of my good buddies, great coach about this last night, because I had gotten fully away from from trap raises and serrated slides, and pretty much only gotten our arm care through things like kettlebell skill work. And on top of that, like some manual perturbation stuff. But where I think you can connect the two points is I think you can almost take from like that bodybuilding standpoint, like finding one, a really good, um, mind muscle connection and to really, really honing in on, okay, well, maybe they do have a little bit of, um, just weakness in those muscles. So maybe we do need

to really focus on, on, um, putting force through that tissue of the low trap and through the serratus anterior. So that is what the, what the intent of the movement is. There is create more forceful tissue in those areas and then challenge them coordinatively through your other means like your kettlebell skill work. So you're getting the best of both worlds, but without kind of merging those two, you're going to either be, you're either not going to have the motor capabilities, the actual motor potential to create the movement, or you're not going to have the coordinative abilities to make it all work together. Hey guys, just wanted to take a quick

second to say, thanks so much for listening to the podcast. And if you're finding value, it would mean the world to me if you would share it on your social media. Simply screenshot whatever platform you're listening to and share the episode to your Instagram story or share it to Facebook. But be sure to tag me so I can say thanks and we can chat it up about what you liked and how I can continue to improve. Thanks so much for supporting the podcast and enjoy the rest of the episode. Yeah, I love that. And I think it's really, really important too, for people who are listening to realize that Joe is borrowing and challenging concepts from different spaces of the fitness realm. You can borrow training from bodybuilding or borrow kettlebell training even, or traditional kettlebell

movements like perhaps the get up and apply these to overhead athletics. And this is an upstream, downstream thing. The reason I had Joe on was to talk a little bit about the shoulder in this capacity, but also to start to enlighten people about ways that borrowing from sports like baseball or from overhead athletics can improve what you're doing in the gym. Even if you're like, hey, dude, I don't want to throw anything. I just want to lift. Well, the good news is if you understand how the shoulder works and you understand how to train and support the muscular systems that protect it and give it its ability to move, you'll be able to lift a lot longer. And I think that these are examples that people can really start to realize like, hey, all of this stuff is connected. I need to borrow from other schools of thought. I need to get a

little bit more dynamic than just grabbing a band and doing some internal external rotation and then hopping under a barbell. And so I think that's a beautifully kind of circled, we've circled the wagons around the shoulder now. And I'd like to talk a little bit more about the thoracic spine. So for those of you guys who aren't aware, when you throw something, if you can't rotate through your spine, you're not going to throw it very fast, you're not going to throw it very far. The hips generate a lot of power. The arm does a lot of the work, but all of that is mediated by the spine. And the thoracic spine is something that a lot of lifters do not work on whatsoever. Their only real thought process around the back at all is, is my back tight from the deadlifts

that I do. And taking care of your thoracic mobility and working to improve it is actually really beneficial for your long-term performance. And so could you expand a little bit on, you know, what kind of generates thoracic rotation? Why is it important for human movement? Maybe not just baseball, maybe not just lifting. And what are some things people can do to kind of wrap their head around long-term preservation of that? Oh, so important thoracic mobility. Well, I love the saying of you're as old as your spine is or something like that. Like your age is connected to the age of your spine. And so absolutely like you need to be taking care of that. And I think the big thing to really hone in on with the thoracic spine is that rotation through the spine has to be coming from that area or you're going to deal with injury,

pain and pathology. And you had Stu McGill on. I mean, that guy, look into any of his work and that's where you can really dive into it. that guy, look into any of his work and that's where you can really dive into it. But just for shoulder health for one, but for health in general, you have to be able to create quality movement in the thoracic spine. And it has to be something you're working on daily. If you think something is important, spend time doing it every single day. And I think as a lifter, obviously all of us people who are passionate about the gym, you want to be doing it for as long as possible. And if every single

expert in the fitness world is telling you that you need to have a mobile and healthy thoracic spine, just listen to them. And it doesn't take that much time. I mean, really for us, it's like rotation. I would say since I've introduced kettlebell skill work, I like, I used to not be a fan of Turkish get ups at all. Like I was not a fan of windmills, Turkish get ups. I would see people doing them. I'd be like, that's, that's just dumb. Like, I don't know what kind of party trick this person is doing over here in the gym, but why they are so beautiful is because the thoracic spine, you're not only working rotation, you're working the beautiful rhythm of rotation and extension all at the same time.

And it's just amazing movement what the upper back can create. But I would say like some bang for your buck stuff is just cat cows. Like hit a cat cow every time you do your warmup. It's going to take you 30 seconds and just get some movement and incorporate breath into that movement. Just make sure that you're always creating movement through the spine. Cause the last thing you want is when you're 60 years old to be dealing with a spine that you can't fricking live with. You know what I mean? And what I would say is you're taking care of something so that in the long run, you're going to have a robust and resilient body that's going to allow you to do the things you love in the long run. Believe me, I wish that I could walk into the gym every single day and just bench press and deadlift right off the bat and I'd be good, but the body just doesn't work like that.

right off the bat and I'd be good, but the body just doesn't work like that. So if you just take 10 minutes a day to take care of some spinal health stuff, you're going to really be helping yourself out in the long run. And so just remember it's, you have to create flexion extension, but you also have to create your rotation through the upper back. And one thing to note, whenever you're doing something rotationally, like I even see it, like you'll see people crushing themselves with Russian twists and stuff, the movement and rotation that comes in the spine, you want it to be in the upper, upper half of the spine, the thoracic spine. So really easy thing to cue is your belly button should be attached to your pelvis. Like your belly button and your, and your pelvis should move together and create the rotation from your shoulders up top. But keep it super simple.

You don't need to do a ton. You just need to be consistent with it. Now, I think that's brilliant, particularly given that the majority of the issues of the, let's just say above the hips, anything above your pelvis that people deal with is usually in the lumbar spine or usually in the shoulders, both of which can be exponentially mitigated by simply having a better functioning thoracic spine. If that guy doesn't move the way it's supposed to move, your lower back has to do a lot more work and your shoulder might have to do a lot more work. And like Joe said, simply incorporating some fundamental resistance training movements

like Turkish get-ups, kettlebell windmills, or even some mobility stuff like cat-cows. Those three right there might be enough, quote-unquote, prehab for most people to take care of both of those regions. explore concepts that are really important for sports like baseball, you might just be pounding away at your banded rotator cuff exercises and popping your back on a foam roller and throwing yourself under a bench like 90% of people do. So I love that those have kind of all come full circle. And it kind of leads me into my next question, which is given that most people would be wise to preserve their shoulders and their spine in the long run. And it's essentially your job working with professional baseball players to make sure that people preserve those structures. What are some movements? And I don't want to, I don't want to be a fear monger. I don't want to scare anybody, but what are some movements that you think in the long run might be better off if you minimize how much you do them, which is to say, Hey, I want to live

for a long time. Maybe I want to look good. Maybe I want to be strong, but I don't want to break down. Are there some movements that you've identified that might not necessarily be aligned with those goals and that people should perhaps substitute? Well, you know, not avoiding the question when I say it depends, you know, I can't leave it at that. It depends, but, um, it's really, really based on a person by person basis. And so a super easy test to see, like, let's say with your overhead mobility is a back to wall shoulder flexion test. So put yourself and your back up against a wall, make sure that you still have three points of contacts, your butt still on your upper back, still on head, still on and see if you can get your thumbs all the way

back to the wall without letting your rib flare and kind of arch through that low back. That will be a very easy indicator. Okay. Can I lift, um, can I lift overhead without having a ton of compensation patterns happen here? And if you look at majority of gym rats might not have great ability to do that. Some people obviously will. Um, but if you can't lift in a really, really quality overhead position without letting your ribs flare and kind of, and lumbar extension happen, that doesn't mean you can't lift overhead. You just have to be a little bit smarter with what exercises you select. So I think the, I mean the frigging best bang for your buck overhead lift for somebody who doesn't have incredible overhead mobility is a landmine press. Like, yeah. And I think where

you have to touch on here is a lot of people overestimate the amount of variability they have to have within their strength training program. So they feel like every time they go into the gym, they have to be doing something new. I guarantee you, you can create progressive overload in a half kneeling landmine position for at least six months before you become stale on it. If you are being intelligent about the way that you are creating progressive overload in that lift, you're going to get gains those whole six months and your shoulders are going to feel freaking great. Right. Or like when you look at like the, uh, like half Turkish get up, the reason it's

one of the reasons it's great is because when we always have a little bit of angle in our chest, we're never actually in a full overhead position, right? So you can modify certain exercises to where you're not going all the way into overhead flexion, um, where your shoulders are just going to be a little bit, a little bit safer and healthier and happier, right? And like we've kind of touched on and harped on already is shoulder quality, shoulder movement is quality shoulder blade movement. So in the meantime, when you're crushing those half kneeling landmine presses for six months, you're also reinforcing good upward rotation of the shoulder blade. And if we absolutely crush those one, we're going to be increasing the strength and the coordinative ability of our serratus anterior and our low trap and creating great upward rotation and

posterior tilt. So, all right, awesome. We focused on that for six months. We got a lot stronger still, and maybe our shoulders are even healthier to the point where now I can get into a good overhead position, right? So prioritize that, be smart with it. And, you know, a lot of people in the baseball strength and conditioning world will tell you absolutely no bench press, right?

Absolutely no bench press. And truth be told, almost 99% of the time, our guys are not going to barbell bench press, but you just can't put absolutes on exercise. If a guy came in and he's been bench pressing for the last three years and he throws a 95 mile an hour fastball and his shoulder feels great, who am I to tell him that that is an unhealthy position for him to be in, right? But if you are 35 and you've never bench pressed before and your body has absolutely no adaptation in that lift, let's progress it very,

very slowly up into that, right? Yeah. It's like, don't get set on any single exercise. Don't get set on anything being a bad exercise. Just intelligently assess what you have in front of you with that athlete and make modifications. Don't, don't be rigid with your exercise selection or your programming because like kind of going on the same note, me and Kyle Rogers, again, we're having a conversation and on Twitter, somebody got in a thing where it was like, if you could only pick one exercise, what's like the one non-negotiable exercise for a baseball player. And I couldn't think of one. There isn't any non-negotiable exercises. There's always ways to work around problems. I promise you, if an

athlete told me I have a set of 20 pound dumbbells, a BOSU ball and a kettlebell, like I could still write them a program that's going to at least make them feel good, right? You can have a lot of flexibility and maybe even with this COVID thing happening, people are starting to realize that they don't need a 30,000 square foot gym to get a good workout in. And maybe you don't need to bench press, you know, twice a week every single month. But yeah, there's no bad exercises. There might be bad exercise selection. So just be smart and listen to your body in that way. I think that's a really good way to kind of address this ideology that there are certain things that we just don't touch, or there's certain things that we put on the pedestal of

must be done. And I know on the landmine press, it's a fantastic lift. And it's not one that's often talked about from a hypertrophy standpoint. But following a lot of the work that Joe and the guys have done over at Hyperthrive, I had a client who was dealing with some shoulder stuff. Let's just call it shoulder stuff. I didn't get a diagnosis. I did a few assessments. I thought I'd figured out it's probably just better off that we don't do a lot of barbell pressing overhead or in the bench. And so we opted instead for some landmine pressing and progressed that across eight weeks. And her delts absolutely exploded. Not only did her shoulders work better, but her delts exploded. And I started to think to myself, why is it that somebody would get better hypertrophy from something like a landmine press? And I think what we have to realize is if you get married to

exercises, even if you do them improperly, you don't do them through a full range of motion, and you're not able to create stability or practice mobility, you're not going to harp or get the full result. And you can do that with almost any lifter with a landmine. You can put them in a stable position and have them train through a full range of motion. And so like here we are, we've talked about kettlebell get-ups, kettlebell windmills, and landmine presses, which are not movements a lot of people are doing, but they're movements that a lot of people could be doing, especially right now. And they're actually quite enjoyable. So I just,

I love what we've talked about. And I've also just, I love that we've picked like a few things that people are going to be like, shit, I don't know what I'm doing Monday, but I'm doing windmills, get ups and landmines because these are fantastic exercises. And then just to close out, man, I think that when you look at the athletic space, baseball lives in a very, very unique world. It's a different sport. There's a lot of, baseball has a lot of unwritten rules. It has a lot of weird bodies. Like it's the only sport where you can be, you know, a dominant, essentially force besides golf and be effectively in poor physical shape. It's also a sport where you can be 6'3", 185 and have very little muscle, but completely dominate people.

You know, you have different athletes of different shapes and sizes, and it's a fascinating sport to watch for that reason. But there are certain elements of baseball training that you just won't find in a lot of other sports. And a lot of this has to do with the fact that a lot of baseball is done in the frontal and transverse plane. There's a lot of movement, particularly if you imagine stealing a base, that occurs in the frontal plane. There's a lot of movement, particularly like if you imagine stealing a base that occurs in the frontal plane. There's a lot of rotation in that too, but athletes don't train that and particularly lifters.

So as somebody who's been a lifter, who's been a baseball player, and now who coaches people in both realms, what are some elements of baseball training and training in those different planes that really lend themselves well to just general fitness and performance. Yeah. So like you said, baseball players are some weird birds. They are like, probably it's one of the only sports where you can see a professional high level professional baseball player walking down the street and you would never know they're a baseball player or a professional athlete for that matter. And so kind of to go off what you said, majority of movements in baseball are frontal plane power oriented. So an easy way to think about that, it's throwing, right? But if you look at something like

a javelin thrower, they create linear momentum. So momentum going towards the target by sprinting at the target and then transferring that linear momentum up into the implement and into obviously the throw and the spear, the javelin, the spear. I like spear better. But if you look at a baseball player, you see that everything they do starts from them facing sideways, right? So a pitcher is facing sideways, or at least when he gets into his actual movement towards the plate, it's sideways towards the plate. A hitter is facing laterally sideways.

So all of their power has to be generated in the frontal plane. And there's been some great studies done that show that plane or power is plane specific, right? So if you took a, an elite baseball player, they would have even by high school standards, a subpar vertical jump, but they can throw a ball 98 miles an hour, right? So they cannot produce, um, power in the sagittal plane straight up vertically, but they can produce power laterally in the frontal plane at an elite level, right? So it doesn't transfer. Just because we're creating sagittal plane power doesn't mean we're creating frontal

plane power. So when we're trying to attack frontal plane power, some of the things you'll do is like skater jumps, what we call heightens, or like a lateral lunge or a lateral sled drag. So just creating a forceful relationship, moving sideways. And just like anecdotally, what I can say on this topic for lifters is I work as a strength and conditioning coach, right? So I have to demo exercises. I have to demo sprints. I have to demo change of direction stuff. There was a good portion of my lifting career where I was doing, you know, competitive powerlifting for probably two years, just focusing on that. The most unathletic I've ever felt in my entire life

is when I was only doing powerlifting and I would, I would perform an exercise trying to demo it for my kids. And I was like, they they didn't even they don't even know what the movement looks like because I know that that was like probably looked like the most unathletic thing in the world and to me I like I'm all for getting jacked like I want to be jacked right but I also want to feel good and feel athletic and not snap my freaking knee when I go and play spike ball with my friends. Right. And I think that is like such a big thing to have as a priority is like, you're not just a lifter. You're a human being. Human beings move in all planes of motion. And in order to just feel good, you have to train that you're not going to be good at something you don't train. So just the incorporation of doing lateral lunges,

just the incorporation of jumping sideways, doing some shuffles in your warmup. Again, it doesn't have to be much like no one's asking you to go out and be a frontal plane beast and be, you know, throw 90 miles an hour, but you're a human being. And like human beings do a lot more than bench and pull-ups and,-ups and deadlifts, right? In order for you to feel healthy, I think you just need to be variable in the movement that you do. And it doesn't take much, but incorporate it consistently into your workout. And I guarantee you're going to feel better and move better. Yeah, I couldn't agree more. And I, something that I've seen, and I can completely echo what

you said about the worst I've ever moved is when I was focusing exclusively on sagittal plane strength development. If you, even if your goal is to be the best power lifter in the world, one shitty injury can take that away from you. And what's unfortunate is that a lot of the time we get injured. It's when we introduce a novel position or we just so happen to do something that we were not quite used to. And so the incorporation and borrowing from other sports and using different planes of motion, even if it's just in your warmup, even if it's just going out and playing a game and warming up before you do that can be a nice mechanism in long-term injury prevention. So guys, just to circle the wagons, I like to make sure that we cover everything,

but understand that the shoulder is a mobile joint. It is comprised of not just the glenohumeral joint, but also the scapula. And it is held together mostly by muscles and soft tissue that you would do well to take care of and to learn more about. The thoracic spine should be a mobile portion of the body and a little bit of work there goes a long way. So, and lastly, borrowing from frontal and transverse plane movements to become just an overall better moving human being is a great way to look good and move well also. But Joe, I think that after this, a lot of people are going to be interested in keeping up with you and the team.

So what is the best way that they can keep up with Joe Grinstein and the Hyperthrive team? So Hyperthrive Athletics at Hyperthrive Athletics on Instagram. We're extremely, extremely active on that. If you ever have any questions, want to reach out, shoot us a follow, shoot us a message. My personal account is at classic Jojo beans, very, very professional account name there, but you can follow me. I'm going to start posting a lot more stuff on that as well. Um, but honestly, man, I want to thank you like extremely eloquent on your end. You've probably made my point sound a lot better. So thank you for that. And you know, the people that you're bringing onto this podcast are

going to provide so much quality content to our space and to your listeners. So kudos, man, keep it up. Yeah. And I think you belong right up there with them. And it goes back to kind of the story I told earlier, as somebody who's kind of always been a younger guy in the space, because I got into it really young, you have to earn your stripes and you have to eat a little bit of shit. You have to mop some floors and you have to rack some weights. And whenever I see another younger person in the space who has a lot of potential, who's racked their fair share of weights and eaten their fair share of shit. And it always resonates. So it was an absolute honor to have you on. I strongly recommend following the guys at Hyperthrive, all three, including the gym

page, including Joe's page. There's a ton of content. I borrow from it all the time for my own training or just what I'm doing with clients when I realize, hey, it's probably time to incorporate some elements of unique movement. So guys, do me a favor, follow them all. You'll be happy you did. And thanks again, Joe, so much for coming on. Absolutely. Thank you. All right, everybody. Thanks so much for sitting down with me and Joe. I hope you found some value in today's conversation. I'm sure you did. If you want to continue to learn and develop as a coach, as an athlete, as a lifter, you need to be exposed to a variety of different expertise. And Joe is one of the top dogs

in the sports performance space. So toss him a follow on Instagram at CoachJoeHTA. Follow Hyperthrive Athletics. They post a ton of awesome content, particularly related to baseball and sports performance, but it's stuff you can borrow and plug right into your training to make it more exciting, help prevent things like injuries from occurring, and just stay more athletic. Thanks again so much for tuning in. Enjoyed it. Love having you here. Have a good one.