Ear Biscuits with Rhett & Link - The Most Pivotal Moments in Our 40 Year Friendship | Ear Biscuits Ep. 436

Episode Date: September 2, 2024

40 FREAKING YEARS! In this episode, Rhett & Link are going through all the pivotal moments in their friendship – from meeting each other in 1st grade to the blood oath to road tripping it out to California to where they are now. Find millions of new and used cars on autrotrader.com! Start your new morning ritual & get up to 43% off your @MUDWTR order by going to mudwtr.com/ear! #mudwtrpod #sponsored #ad To learn more about listener data and our privacy practices visit: https://www.audacyinc.com/privacy-policy Learn more about your ad choices. Visit https://podcastchoices.com/adchoices

This, this, this, this is Mythical. Summer's here, and you can now get almost anything you need delivered with Uber Eats. What do we mean by almost? You can't get a well-groomed lawn delivered, but you can get chicken parmesan delivered. Sunshine? No. Some wine? Yes. Get almost, almost anything delivered with Uber Eats. Order now. Alcohol in select markets. See app for details. At Mark's, our jeans and tees are made to be played in. And our flannel is made to be relaxed in.

Really relaxed in. Fall feels better in clothing and footwear that's made to be lived in. Find everything you need from head to toe this season at marksandmarks.com. This episode is sponsored by Auto Trader. you need from head to toe this season at MarksandMarks.com. This episode is sponsored by Auto Trader. See a car in a movie that you just watched? You can find it on Auto Trader. Shop millions of new and used cars on Auto Trader. Welcome to Ear Biscuits, the podcast where two lifelong

friends talk about life for a long time. I'm Link. And I'm Rhett. This week at the round table of dim lighting, we are celebrating and reminiscing 40 years of friendship. 40 years of friendship with each other. It's our friend-iversary. We're talking about us now. Our friend-iversary.

This comes out two days before our actual friend-iversary, right? So September 4th, 1984, that is first day. That's when it started. That was the first day of our friendship. I don't wanna talk, I mean, I don't wanna say what it was. So it was easy to retroactively pinpoint.

Yeah. And people on the internet actually figure this out because somebody, we always talk about meeting first grade at Bowie's Creek Elementary School, and people were like, well, I did some research and the actual first day of school was September 4th in 1984. So thank you for whoever did that originally.

That's how we know that. We can always count on you. That's how long we've been friends. Mythical beasts. So we're going to- And we also did a special little celebration on Good Mythical Morning, so you can check that out. It did involve a ceremony and Elvis.

And it was a complete surprise to us. And let's just say, maybe Stevie talked about this on Good Mythical More, I can't remember. It was great to have Elvis. Elvis was not our first choice. Was not our first choice. We did talk about that. We had a couple of other.

We talked about that on the more. So anyway, we decided what we wanna do is we wanna reminisce. We have each put together a list of the most significant slash iconic moments in our friendship. This got really squirrely really quickly for me. Well, we got our wires crossed in terms of the assignment. I will say.

Yeah. This was your idea which made me very happy that you suggested this idea that we, you know, come up with special moments over the course of our 40 years of friendship. And I should have clarified because I was thinking at the time not to make it a top 10 because that means we have to narrow it down to a top 10,

we have to rank things in order of significance or whatever. So I just went from the beginning and started tracking through our friendship chronologically and tried to remember the most significant moments, and it got out of hand really quickly. Well, all you said was- Way more than 10.

The text you sent me was, we can each make lists and compare before, or we can make lists and go through it like we would top 10. Yeah, I was misleading. So then I was like, okay, I'll pull that together. Like we would. And then we never talked about it again.

What I was hoping would happen... And so what I did was I tried to narrow it down to like 10 things that I was gonna rank as like what are the most pivotal moments in our friendship and then you're like, well I've got 40. Well what I meant by that, I didn't think we were making the decision. I was like, would you want to do it like this? Do you want to do it like this?

Like let's talk about it and then we just didn't talk about it again. It's fine. You do it your way, I'll do it mine. Is this the breakup? Is this the end of 40 years of friendship? I mean, I don't have 40, but I probably have 20. But I may not mention all 40, all 20. And you wanna do it in chronological order.

Yeah. And I wanted to do it in order of importance, which now I'm not gonna do because I didn't reorder them once you told me that you're not doing that. I didn't want to assign more or less significance to different moments because once I started thinking about them, that seemed like an impossible task. I'll do that, I'm up for the task.

Okay. Yeah, so that's gonna be my role, but since you have more than me and you wanna go in a certain order, I'm gonna let you do that. And because there's so many, and if we've talked extensively about any of this stuff before,

I just feel like moving along. You know what I'm saying? Like, for instance, number one, the first day we met, September 4th, 1984, Miss Locklear's class. We did a whole episode about how the story about that and the specifics about that were potentially invented in our own minds about writing curse words and being held in from recess, which we still remember, we still believe, at least being held in from recess. But we don't question that being the first day we met.

We know that's the first day we met. We know that's the first day we met. Less because we remember it specifically and more because didn't it just have to be? I mean, is there an argument to be made that we actually met at church a week before, a month before? Mm. What, so basically what we're doing is we're undermining. a week before, a month before. So basically what we're doing is we're undermining, today we are undermining every one of our most

special memories of friendship and calling it completely into question. I've never thought about that. We moved that summer and then I think we visited Memorial and we visited First Baptist. And I don't know if I would have gone to Sunday school. You didn't always go to church. and then I think we visited Memorial and we visited First Baptist. And I don't know if I would have gone to Sunday school. You didn't always go to church.

Yeah, I did. Every Sunday? Yeah, well, yeah. I was just late a lot. So there's a possibility that we met before that. Just shut up. All right, so let's mark, cross that one off the list. Like maybe two weeks before, but we didn't talk.

I know we didn't have a conversation because I was like the new kid and I didn't even talk to anybody until I got to school. I don't think I would have gone to Sunday school. I think I would have waited or something. Right, because you were the new kid. I think we got to North Carolina right before school started.

I don't know, that's my recollection. Maybe like a week or two before school started. I don't know, that's my recollection. Maybe like a week or two before school started? I don't know. So yeah, we met for the first time in first grade. Let's not screw that one up. I would not, I am not putting this as the number one moment of our friendship because yes, it's very important,

the first time we met, but there's more important moments in our friendship. Okay, like the first time I spent the night at your house. What do you remember about this? I don't remember at all. But you know it must have been important. This is why I surmise that this is really important. Again, as we've talked about many times,

I had a propensity to invite myself over to other kids' homes, boys' homes. Not boys' homes, like we're foster children. Orphanage. Like not orphanages, like other homes of children, you know, other people's houses. You're friends, dude. No, they're- Friends.

No, no, no, they didn't have to be my friends. Potential friends. Anybody at all. And what I will say is that every single kid in that like first grade class, for the most part, over the course of a couple of years, I invited myself over to everybody's house. Most people, I would go over to their house,

I would spend the night and I would say, I've seen all I need to see, I'm not coming back. Ah. You know what I'm saying? I've seen what's in the- Well, we had a small house, you could pretty much see everything from, you could stand in the middle of the house and see it all. I've seen what's in the refrigerator, you know, I know what movies they got on VHS,

which usually was none because we were renting VCRs back then. They have Nintendo. I specifically, there was a select number of people that I was like, I made the decision to re-invite myself over and yours was one of those houses. There weren't many, there weren't many, there's a handful. So I would say that was a significant sign.

I don't remember the first time, but there was a second and third and fourth time. And then there was at some point where I was able to talk, you ended up spending the night at my house, but it was probably like sixth grade because you were scared to not sleep in your own bed. Well, it is interesting to like, there are certain things that we know for sure,

like that we were very different at that age. This is a very that we were very different at that age. This is a very validatable point here, you know? And a good example to then like extrapolate, right? You were unabashedly inviting yourself to people's houses and I was, I would never do that. But you would certainly do it now.

But I wouldn't do it now. It's like we've had a role reversal. But we were very different in that way, which I think leads to being different in a lot of different ways. But when we hung out, it still worked. And I think it has to do with that silliness, like laughing together.

That's what we've like derived when we wrote about it in the Book of Mythicality. I think that's like, friends who laugh together stay together. That slogan is something that I think it really is the backbone of, we just had the same vibe, the same sense of humor. And we also saw each other a lot because there was the church thing, like three times during the week, we would be in the same space outside of school. But there were other kids who were also part of that

in the class and in church that I didn't end up going back to their house. Yeah, and it wasn't, it's not like from that early age we were seen as like this duo as like best friends constantly. But in my first grade, first or second grade, I think it was first grade though,

that my mom still has and then became a t-shirt. Right. It was like, Miss Locklear gave us this thing and it was like you had to draw your family, your pets, your favorite activities, your best friend or friends. And I put Link and Matt, Link, Neil, Matthew Ensor.

Yeah. And I never spent the night at Matthew's house. That's a data point. But I drew you as my best friend in first grade. Okay, well, there you go. Okay, that's proof positive. Blonde hair, full blue suit. Yep.

Yeah, it's a t-shirt. Okay. I don't know if you can get it anymore. There you go. You know what? To break out of the chronology, because you mentioned Miss Locklear, one of the iconic moments in our friendship for me

is making the documentary Looking for Miss Locklear, which we filmed in 2003. It technically didn't come out until 2006. You can still rent it on Amazon now, if you wanna watch it. That was an important moment in our friendship because it was the first, I mean, we made a movie together.

Within the context of working for, you know, crew, being, working for a nonprofit, we somehow, like, altered our job description and like the strategy of what we were doing to include making a film, which was extremely exciting and rewarding and just a really long project. It was like this passion project

that we filmed it over one summer, but then over the next couple of years, we would just edit it when we had time. And it was directly tied to that, the origin story of our friendship, you know? And it was a big creative risk and a big creative adventure that we found a way to make it happen. And I think that was just, that was kind of a,

it was a super sweet thing that we did, you know? That memorialized our friendship. We felt like this is something we wanna share with people and even now, we're really leaning into that with Wonderhole, you know? So it's, I think that was a really pivotal experience for us because it was documenting an experience and it was making a movie

and it was about our friendship in the past. It was also about, you know, an American Indian tribe seeking federal recognition. It ended up, I would say that it was a bit emblematic of what we've continued to lean into all these years and are leaning into with WonderHole, which we'll talk about more later on because I'm going chronologically.

I remember spending the night at your house, much more than I remember you spending the night at my house. Much more than I remember you spending the night at my house. On the US history mattress? Yes. Yeah, which was like, it would fold up into the couch, but then you would take it out and just put it on the floor, wouldn't you? I had a fold up bed underneath my bed?

No, I just had a mattress that was underneath my bed. We would usually sleep in that guest room because that's where the Nintendo was. Right, but before that, in the early days, my parents would take that US history mattress, which I also had one, and I will say, just preface this, later when I was going through puberty and I was experimenting with my, not my couch, I'm not JD Vance, my bed.

That was a different mattress at the time. Okay, good. Okay? And I no longer was sleeping on it. Well, maybe I was. Was I sleeping on that one? No, no, I'm saying that- What the hell? You do not, I can assure you that you've never slept

on a mattress that I had sex with. Are you sure? Okay. Because I spent the night at your house when we were 15, 14? Yeah, they changed the mattress by that point. The US History mattress was very, very thin. Okay. Okay. Okay. I remember your television remote. We're moving on. Let me just say that I'm not running for vice president, and I know that JD Vance didn't actually have sex

with a couch, somebody made a joke and it became a thing. But here's the thing, I am not running for vice president and I did have sex with furniture. Okay. So it's the exact opposite. He is running and he didn't have. I'm openly not running for vice president and openly admit that I did have sex with furniture. But you don't have to because you're not running for anything.

There's no reason to admit. But I'm saying that if I ever do run for something, and God forbid, I really don't want to, I mean, I'm gonna have to embrace that. It's gonna be part of my platform. It's gonna be like, yes, I did have sex with furniture. Well, you know, that's what makes the best leaders. People who are honest. No, people who have sex with furniture.

No, people who don sex with furniture. Ha ha ha ha ha! No, people who don't want the office. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I don't want it, Link. Don't twist my arm into running for office. I've had sex with furniture. Do not vote for me. I don't want it.

Oh, he's perfect. Yeah. He's perfect. He's the total package. Yeah. There's a small group of fans there that are gonna be very happy you finally addressed this. Yeah.

Oh. Which part of it? When the JD Vance thing first came out, there was a number of fan responses I saw. Jessie told me that I should say something about it. She, you know, my social media advisor, my wife, she told me I should engage. I was like, I'm just not doing Twitter right now.

I remember your television remote had a, it was not, it was corded. Yeah, it was a zenith. It was a zenith and it had a cord. Zenith, the best brand of TV. Okay, what else you got? Let's not get off on the tangent of who has the best television.

You may have 40 years of friendship, man. You may disagree with this, but I think a significant, some of the things in my list are gonna be things that I were like, if we were making a movie about our lives, this would be an iconic scene. And then some things are gonna be like, this is a circumstantial thing that happened

that I think has a lot of significance. This is the latter. Pastor Tim, youth pastor Tim showing up at Buies Creek First Baptist Church. Yeah. And I would say in a lot of ways. Okay, well, I know that he was very fervent and excited to teach us as youth to be just as fervent

and excited as he was, to like take a risk for the gospel. Passion. Passion. About your relationship with Jesus. So much so that you would share it with people. Well, and just prioritizing it, like it being, hey, if this is true, and I'm not saying that this wouldn't have happened anyway, because my personality was like I was all in,

but I think this was, if it hadn't been a different, like less passionate, less good in that sense, youth pastor. Yeah. I think that I may have been a little bit more lukewarm, right, but I think it connected with both of us in a way that it ended up being a thing that we had in common. It's, you know, there were other,

I think there were other girls that we knew that maybe were as passionate or whatever, but like in terms of like guys who were unabashedly passionate about Jesus, we had that in common in a way that we couldn't really connect with other people. Then I would, for me, that point would be that mission trip. Well, we went to Trinidad. But we went to Trinidad, why?

Because of Tim. Right, and we were 14, 15? That was- Yeah. Right before high school. Right before high school. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Right. Which at the same time, without getting into the hairy details

of why there was a church split at Buies Creek First Baptist Church that year, it squarely had to do with Tim. Right. Which led to the beginning. Because some people thought he should be a pastor. Right. And we had this very strong relationship with him,

so we were very invested. It wasn't something that the adults were doing, it was something that we were very connected to. Right, and then my family being a part of the new church, which then led to the establishment of the Maranatha Cafe. Right. So I see, like, you know, again, you can, there's an infinite regress and- The Marinat Cafe, that's where we decided to start-

Tracing things back. Our band, the Wax Paper Dogs, which was very instrumental in- Right. But I've got some more moments- Our friendship. I've got more moments between- Okay.

Between then and there, but yeah, that was- Keep going, since you're going chronological. I'll make sure you don't miss any that are on my list. Seventh grade talent show. Hell yeah, seventh grade talent show. That's where it was, we performed scenario from Tribe Called Quest, so we had the posse cut and it was me, you, Ben was on the drum machine because what do we

do eighth grade and then we added another song at the end that was just me you and Ben so it went from scenario right into another song we got two for one what was the song we did eighth grade though or did I have it backwards I thought scenario was eighth grade that was eighth grade we did same song which is digital underground one of the first songs that Tupac performs in. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And yeah, and that's the one we added a song onto. So that was me, you, Ben.

And we brought the house down. We lived for that. And I was like, oh my God. And I remember being in first grade and watching the talent show of the eighth graders and thinking in first grade, oh God, can we be up there one day? Yep.

And then in seventh grade we did. And again, that was- We showed up all the eighth graders, which was great. And again, there's a bunch of moments that kind of meld, like, is this a career moment or is this a friendship moment, which I think is very representative of our friendship, which is, you know, our pursuit of things has been

a source of our friendship. That makes it easier. Yeah, that was very formative. Yeah. I mean, so you missed the fall. That was fall of eighth grade year. The fall festival was after that? Where we performed you down with Halloween

to the tune of you down with OPP. In my recollection, it was, because what we had done is we had gained confidence from getting up there for the seventh grade thing, and then we're like, we can get up there during the fall festival. It's not even a talent show. We can just say we've written a rap and do it.

Yeah, and again, to fast forward, this is one that was very high on my list as a friendship moment, the full circle moment of performing that rap on The Tonight Show with the roots backing us. I've brought it up a couple of times. I think it's like one of the, it'll go down as one of like the most satisfying,

special moments in our friendship because it was that full circle thing of the first, I remembered it as being before the Seventh Grade Talent Show, but it was an original song. Like you wrote these lyrics, I dug them up. I still had the lyrics that you'd written. It was like, I knew it was special.

I kept it. I don't think I would have had the confidence to do it without having done the talent show. You can see it in the book of mythicality. But that's a good point. But yeah, to be able to perform it there, because I was also like, is the first time we went on The Tonight Show, that was a very special moment for us

because we grew up watching The Tonight Show. It was just, it was iconic to us. So to be on it and to be doing what we were doing, to be doing a will it from Good Mythical Morning They built the set, you know, they recreated our show within the Tonight Show. It's like it was such a Cosign as they call it. Yes kind of and it was extremely special that was like a highlight of like Definitely a highlight of like, definitely a highlight of our career,

but to me both of those, especially the rapping on there is a highlight of our friendship and I is definitely in the top five subject to change. There's a lot, there's a cluster of events back then in this time period. Right. So I'm gonna stay there for a little bit. And you can stay within like performing for an audience. Well, I'm- So let me do that first. The every year there would be,

there was the school dance, the middle school dance. Benny Ensor, who was Matt's dad, who later became a member of our band. Yeah. He was the DJ. And he put on a lip sync competition. Yeah. So it was another time for, okay,

at a certain point in the dance, everybody's gonna gather around, and then if you've entered in, you're gonna get to, you get to perform, and it's a contest and We performed a DJ jazzy Jeff and the Fresh Prince song called jazzy groove where fresh the Fresh Prince Will Smith is just rapping about How good of a DJ?

Jeff is and I was Jeff and I was just acting like I was doing the DJ stuff, and he made the records talk and perform arithmetic. One plus one is two. Which is extremely hard to do, and I had no clue what he was doing, and all these years later, here I am taking a course. Now you're a DJ. From him and learning how to do that.

That was a big moment. We didn't win though, I don't think. I think Linwood Campbell. Linwood Campbell, I think maybe outdid us with a Black Sheep song. Yeah, had a little more energy. It was a hit. The song we chose was not a hit.

It was a deep cut. Right. It was an iconic moment. You know, there's so many really good streaming television shows that aren't in English, Rhett. And you can turn on the subtitles or you can learn the language. Oh, okay.

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but then there are just so many things that I enjoy as just part of my diet where I need some bread. You know what I mean? You got a hamburger, you got a hot dog, you got a taco, you got some tortillas, you gotta have some bread. A bread for a taco? Oh, tortillas.

Okay, all right, yeah, that's right. Well, Hero Bread reinvented the bread and buns that make everything Rhett just talked about great. And now you can try their sweet melt-in-your-mouth Hawaiian rolls for guilt-free summer sliders! Let me tell you, even if summer's done, you're gonna wanna keep these Hawaiian buns around because they taste just as good as any other Hawaiian bun I've had.

Yeah, there's nothing compromised in taste or texture. We tried these yesterday, as a matter of fact. We had all of them in there. We had the tortillas, we had the seed bread, we had the buns, and I would have just thought I was eating regular bread. I know, totally. Soft and fluffy.

Make a sandwich. But it has zero grams of sugar and zero to one grams of net carbs and is very high in fiber. I love fiber. I don't know if that makes you sound old, but I freaking love fiber. We're fiber fans.

And I love bread. Keep the carbs out of your life without compromising flavor. With Hero Bread, get 10% off your order at hero.co and use code EAR at checkout. That's EAR at H-E-R-O dot C-O. Non-performative moments. I think that Ben getting sick at that same time

was actually a really significant thing. Seventh grade. So, and this is Ben's initial diagnosis of chronic fatigue syndrome. We've talked quite a bit about that, which kind of took him, sidelined him in a lot of ways. He had to leave school. We still hung out, but the three of us spent a lot of time together.

And I also spent a lot of individual time with Ben and with you. Right. And then Ben getting sick and suddenly being a middle schooler who didn't know how to process that, but also just literally couldn't, he could not go and do things.

You and I were just beginning this like high school journey, doing these performances together. And I think it kind of had this, it was a catalyst for us sort of teaming up and being like, we're a unit in a way that we had been, but it wasn't so solidified until that moment. Yeah.

I'll add something around that time. The, let's see, eighth grade school assignments that we turned into video projects. Like Oedipus. Which we dug up and showed on Good Mythical Morning like in some of the first few seasons. Like super grainy VHS. Bad.

Bad, but like in camera edited. I think we shot it and we shot it and put it on the tape in order so it's like you didn't edit it later. But you might've done some editing. I don't know if we had the ability to do that. But yeah, again, that making videos together was something that we did.

Like the first time we were making videos for school, it was together. There were other people there, but it was, and they were comedy, they were dumb. And people were kind of letting us just do what we wanted to do. Yeah. We were like, okay, they seem to really have an idea

of what they wanna do. It seems really bad and dumb, but they're so passionate about it that I guess I gotta let them do it. Now, right around that same time, this is in the category of this would be in the movie. This is in the category of this would be in the movie. Eighth grade, Betsy's house, the party, in the makeout room.

So you think this is an iconic. I think it's so funny. Now for the for the rink shippers, this is like, this is evidence, piece of evidence number one that we're secretly lovers, right? They just love this stuff, right? Okay. Yeah. And as we have proven,

we do not mind feeding into your theories. Us individually making out with our girlfriends in the makeout room, but then opening our eyes and seeing, and making eye contact. While making out with girls, right? Now, it wasn't lasting eye contact. If you wanted to believe that it was lasting eye contact, then great. It wasn't. And maybe in the movie it would be. It was more of a confirmation of... But it was like, yeah, we're doing this.

...of parallel experiences. All right, yeah, yeah, yeah. We're both on the right track. It's an iconic thing that I wanna put into something at some point. Ha ha ha. Because it's just so funny for two boys to be making out with their girlfriends and they've talked about it so much. They've talked about how they're gonna do this

and this is what life's all about. Not the looking at each other part, but like, we're gonna make out. we're gonna make out what our girlfriends... And maybe this was me like talking about how great it was going to be and convincing you how great it was gonna be and then I'm doing it and I'm like, see how great this is? And I'm like, oh.

I'm real, I feel like I might shit my pants at any moment because I'm so nervous, but okay, am I doing this right? It's probably why I was looking. Yeah. It's like, I wasn't laying down though. We were both reclined. Yeah, we were reclined. There's quite a room, that make-out room at her house.

I mean, there was somebody else in there too. There was another couple. Oh, at least a couple. Might have been a couple. At least a couple of couples. Did that happen anymore? I hope so. By the way, I've got another one from that era

before I move on to a really iconic moment, but I don't know if you've got anything else in that. I think seventh, eighth, ninth grade, the sheer amount of time that we spent outdoors, especially over the summer, but like... That's where I was going. Just doing stuff outside. Like, all the stories we've told before of like, we're going to chase cows, we're going to swim in the river, we're going across the

river to chase the other cows, we're going to kayak down the river. A lot of these things started because of Ben. And then at that same time, he was less and less able to be there and we kept going. Even when we were in school, after school, we would go hang out, even in the woods, even after we got our driver's license, we would still, like after sophomore year in high school,

we were still going out into the woods and swimming in the river. And like, it was super, like just the amount of time, just talking and adventuring was I think the most pivotal, well, it may tie with the most pivotal time in our friendship in terms of like really solidifying it. There was

this connection but it began of so much time and we really began to... everyone else started to see us as a duo and And- Yeah, high school was when that happened. We saw ourselves that way, and we weren't self-conscious about it, even when people made fun of us. We didn't care about those people. I don't recall caring that much about it. Oh, because there were the rank shippers,

I forgot all about this, but our freshman year at high school- Well, we talked about it on here last year, but you forgot about it again? There was the guy, Daniel, whatever his name was, who like started the rumor that we were gay. Of course, that was, at that point, that was like, oh gosh, this is the worst rumor

anybody can make up about somebody in our little conservative town, you know? It's not a lasting memory of it having like, this like really negative impact on me. No. You know, like, we had a lasting memory of it having this really negative impact on me. No. You know, like, we had a big group of friends, but we were always seen as a duo, and we unabashedly did almost everything together, you know? So that's when that really co-lessed.

And then I think it culminated obviously in a specific memory. Well, I have a specific thing that I remember related to that and that is summer between eighth and ninth grade, getting ready to go to high school and us going to the river and just talking about what we were about to experience. Right. And it was one of those.

Who are we gonna date? Like you were very. It was one of those like. Fixated. Very like a, it was like a Ted Talk moment that I would go into where I was trying to like cast a vision for like, this is what high school's going to be. You realize.

Yeah, this like future thing that you still have to this day, it's like this fantasy type. We've been going to this school. Visualization. With this limited number of girls. Right. And we're about to go to high school. We're gonna have girls from Anger, girls from Lillington,

girls from Lafayette, and girls from Boogies Creek. And suddenly, you have no idea what is in store for you. And I certainly didn't. And I just remember sitting there just thinking about it and just thinking about our lives are about to change. Yeah, these are the nature of the conversations we had. It was like very involved.

It wasn't, it was deep and it was fantastical. And there was a lot of it, you know? I think it was, we're just kind of just dreaming and visualizing these things. And then, you know, I think we've moved the date around a bit to know exactly where it happened, but obviously a top moment in our friendship is the blood oath.

Yeah. I would argue, since we're going chronological, we're basically, we're to it, but that is number one. Yeah. I think it's number one. Oh yeah. Because it was the first time that we had a meta, again, it's like the way that you talked about like going into high school, this was going into the rest of our lives.

This was a huge open-ended belief that we hadn't, you know, when you admit that to the other guy, to the point where it's like, yeah, let's put this in writing. Let's make this a promise to do something big together. It's not something, it was a culmination of conversations we had, but it was a huge deal.

And we didn't have to go there. We didn't have to ritualize this thing, you know? But doing that meant a whole lot, you know? And I bet you we were probably actually 16, 15 or 16. We used to say 14, but that doesn't make any sense because we were actually thinking about college at the time. I remember we were thinking about, like, what are we gonna do?

Are we gonna major in film when we get to college? So I don't know. I think we were probably 16 at the time. Because it had gotten to this point where we were beginning to like consider things like at the time I thought I was gonna play college basketball. And so we were like, I think maybe like,

let's go to a place where I can play college basketball, but we can major in film. Yeah. You know, like trying to like create a scenario where we got to pursue this thing together, not knowing exactly where we were going from there. Yeah, and I think that, yeah, obviously it comes up so much in conversation because it's the thing

that proves to someone that not only have we known each other forever, but we've been committed to doing something together in a weirdly serious way. Right. In a way that when people say things like, oh, it's really unusual that you guys have been friends this long and that you've done this much stuff together and that your lives have been intertwined in this way

and that your careers have been intertwined. Like that's where the sort of rarity begins to stack up. Cause people are like, oh, I've got a friend. I've got somebody I went to middle school with that we still talk on a regular basis, but I don't have a room that I go to and stay in that room with them every single day. An office. Right.

Well, we weren't thinking that it was, we were starting a business partnership together. No. But that's only because we, I don't think we connected those dots. If we really, if we would have known enough about how the world worked, we, I think we would have known

that that's part of what we were articulating. We're gonna go into business together. You know? It's just that our dreams weren't about being businessmen or even about making money. It was, it was. And they still aren't. No, no, they're not.

It's a means to an end. The business has always been a means to an end. And it wasn't about making money. We never talked about being rich. We're gonna make lots of money together. We were going to do something big together. I mean it was very much aligned to what has happened. It's crazy.

Right. And I kept it in my wallet and I don't remember. And then you lost it. But then. But I didn't even keep it in my wallet. So I probably put it in my desk and then it was probably cleaned out by my mom or something. You recall anyone else knowing about the oath back then?

No. I don't think we talked about it with people. I don't think anybody would have known about it. Yeah, I don't think there was an occasion to talk about it. And I don't think it's the type of thing that we would have told a girlfriend. Probably not. I don't think so. My relationships were pretty shallow. Why am I still laughing? It's fine.

I don't know. Why? I was thinking of a lot of jokes to play on being shallow, but I don't want to say any of them. I don't know. I'm just thinking of a lot of jokes to play on being shallow, but I don't want to say any of them. I don't know.

I'm just thinking of a lot of jokes to play on being shallow, but I don't want to say any of them. I don't know. I'm just thinking of a lot of jokes to play on being shallow, but I don't want to say any of them. I don't know. I'm just thinking of a lot of jokes to play on being shallow, but I don't want to say any of them.

I don't know. I'm just thinking of a lot of jokes to play on being shallow, but I don't want to say any of them. I don't know. I'm just thinking of a lot of jokes to play on being shallow, but I don't want to say any of them. I don't know. I'm just thinking of a lot of jokes to play on being shallow, but I don't know. It's just, it is fun. I was thinking of a lot of jokes to like play on being shallow, but I don't want to say any of them because they seem cruel. Okay, yeah. So, okay. Shortly after that, the first sort of application

of that doing something bit together was starting the band, Wax Paper Dogs, which we've talked about that a million times. We don't have to go into the details, but we started a Christian band. Junior year is what I'm gonna say right now. Yeah, because I was 17. I was 17, that is when I picked up a guitar

for the first time and started trying to teach myself so we could, well, actually started the band before that. We were dual lead singers, but then I was like, that's weird, we're not in sync, and so we decided to, I decided to play guitar. It was just, it was an endeavor, you know? We were bringing other people along,

like we had a friend group, we brought them along on things, like camping trips and stuff like that. And when we started the band, it might not have exclusively been our idea, but it was like, okay, we're bringing you guys along. You know, it's like, we're obviously a duo. We do everything together. We're gonna do this together.

We had no clue how formative it would be from a personal, spiritual, and creative standpoint. Because I think the thing that makes it really significant is not that the band was good. We weren't. No. Not that we were making incredible things, we weren't.

I think the thing that is most, what it most represents is the level of seriousness that we apply to things. I don't think that the hallmark of what we have created, I'm very proud of many of the things that we created, but I don't think the thing that sets us apart is that whatever we do is more excellent. There's lots of people who make way more excellent stuff than we do.

We make the stuff that we can make. We make stuff that only we can make, right? That's what makes it unique. But one of the things is that there is a pathological potentially maniacal level of pathological potentially maniacal level of commitment to it that we both share that ends up sort of forcing our will on a situation sometimes. I'm not saying it's healthy, but the fact that we're both aligned in that way has led to a lot of things.

That's one of the things that has led to things working for us. I would put it this way. And I think in this way, it is very healthy. We fostered an unapologetic commitment to dreaming. Like we had these big dreams that then we were extremely serious about following through with. And we just, we believed.

We always thought that whatever we were doing had so much more potential than it probably did. When we started that band, we were already rock stars in our minds. It was like, well, we've done the most important thing, which is to start. Now it's just getting from point A to point B and point B is playing arenas. And it was just a foregone conclusion that that was going to happen.

You know what I'm saying? It was stupid to think that way. And everybody in the band believed it. That was the cool thing. We all just believed it. Right. And it was a lot of fun. Oh yeah, it's fun to believe that way.

And the amount, again, you add the component of time, like the amount of time we spent together. We would practice. Chasing. We didn't just dream, we'd be like, we gotta practice, guys, We gotta get this shit down. We wouldn't say shit though, because we were Christians. But like, we gotta get this stuff down.

This is serious. We can't be messing things up. Right. We gotta get these harmonies right. Yeah, I mean, that's it. It was such a, it all came together. The time, the commitment, the passion, the camaraderie, so much was encapsulated in the band and how we worked.

And it was, because it was a spiritual thing, we had this sense of accountability with each other, but also with the band, that what we were doing was sacred, right? There was a sacred nature to what we were doing. Yeah. And it was important and our reputations mattered. And that's what leads to another, hey, this is a movie moment

after you got drunk at Trent's house. Yeah, my deconstruction, my first deconstruction episode, like spiritual episode, I told that story that just really demonstrates just the level of commitment we had to each other to have hard conversations and to, I mean, we called it holding each other accountable.

But I think in retrospect, there was this level of care that like we knew the real person and we had made commitments to each other or we had made commitments to God in the context of our friendship. Right. And at this point, yes, within the context of our friendship. Right. That, and at this point, yes, within the context of the band too, it's like, hey, we're going

after this thing, you don't want to sabotage it with making a bad decision. Going and getting drunk at your friend's house when their parents are out of town for the first and only time. So yeah, that iconic moment of, you know, we had the conversation in the car and then you pulled over and you kicked me out of the car and then you made me,

you invited me to reflect on what I had done by walking home. Yes. And then you drove off, and I'm taking this very seriously, tears rolling down my face, walking down a two lane road in the middle of tobacco fields in Harnett County.

And I look up and, you know, over the hill, I start to see you walking back. You know, you start coming over the horizon. You're not in the car. There is no car in sight. You're walking back and you met me on the road. And then we turned around and we walked back together.

Said nothing. Said nothing. And we got back in the car and we kept driving and we kept moving forward. We didn't talk about it again. Kept moving forward with our dreams. So it's like you can't jeopardize it. You've never had a drop of alcohol since.

I've never had a drop of alcohol. I never got drunk again. That's not true. But you didn't get drunk again until that time in your bathtub when you were drinking rum. When I was married. Ha ha ha ha ha. We don't like to get drunk.

Yeah, I don't like to get drunk. Okay. That was a big moment. It was big. That was a big moment. I'm interested to see. What about the time when I like told you that you had really screwed up? You shouldn't have done that with all your girlfriends. I mean it was never as dramatic But you had a lot more infractions than me You never told me you never told me anything about it. You never challenged me on it. Oh Well, yes yes we did.

I was a good boy once the band started. Yeah, it wasn't easy for you. Right, it was not easy, but I did it. Wasn't easy to just, to not have shallow dating relationships. Okay. So I don't remember, so what I wrote down here is, so many things in college. Because it's, college is its own set of

very concentrated formative memories as well. And I would say that, you know, our decision to, our decision to join Campus Crusade and really like go all in there was super formative. But I also think that like, we could have gone with another ministry or we could have decided to do something else, but that ended up being like really, really important

for our friendship to continue to be centered around this like mission. It was very mission driven. Our lives were mission driven and we saw each other as very important in that. But it also led to all of the professional stuff. We entered into that scene as a duo. You know, everybody who met us in college,

like the vast majority, met us as a duo. You know, for our freshman year, we were still talking about the band we were in, and we would have a couple of concerts, and when we would make friends, we invited them to the concerts that we would have,

because it was still within an hour's drive to kinda go back home, or somewhere in between, and have a venue that we can now invite our college friends to. So like- And we both bleached our hair. We both looked really weird and different than most everybody else we were hanging out with. We were more extreme looking.

Yeah, it may have been a common thing elsewhere, but in North Carolina, it was a more unusual. It was like, walking around campus, it was like, okay, even if these guys aren't together, I can tell that these guys need to be friends if they're not, if you just saw us on campus. But yeah, everybody met us in that context. And I don't recall being self-conscious about that at all at that point.

For me, going off to college together, like moving into that dorm room, and that I just remember the feeling of the first week and that we had each other at a point where we were completely on our own. And I remember being scared shitless in a lot of ways. After that first week, it's like, wow, this is a different level of freedom.

I feel like the net's gone kind of a thing. But we had each other. And we had an identity to everyone else of having each other. And people liked it. I think it didn't push people away. I think it drew people in. You know, the way that we conducted our friendship

was inclusive. It was that like, hey, we're doing stuff, be a part of it. Kind of a thing. You know, which is when we met Greg and he became like our closest other friend. It was like, the friends that we made were really good friends. Like we're going on this college buddies trip again

this year with Greg, Tim and Harm. And it's like, this identity of friendship that wasn't exclusive is something that, yeah, we were just, we were proud of it, you know? And because of, you might be like, well, maybe we should do some stuff apart, you know? It's like, is this a little weird? Like, we never talked about that.

And that doesn't really, you know? I think there's a time and a place for considering that once you start sort of establishing your lives and your families and stuff like that. And that kind of thing happens naturally. But when you're in high school in college, yeah, I think that the lack of self-consciousness about that is, it's like, in many ways,

it's sort of like twins, right? Yeah. You know, twins, well, and sometimes this happens earlier with twins because they've been together their whole lives, but there's the twins who are like, we're going to the same college. We're going to continue being this unit. They have to self-actualize and individuate at some point.

But we were, yeah, there was no consideration of that. Now we were doing slightly different things. It wasn't like every time, you know, we made a decision, because I was like, I'm gonna lead this, I'm gonna lead this Bible study, or I'm gonna go on this this summer project and I'm gonna- We'll spend the summer apart.

MC the meeting or whatever. It wasn't like we had to do every single thing together. Yeah, there was a level of security I think that, you know, that we didn't have to do everything together, but it was still the vast majority. Right. I think that the first time the two of us performed a song together that was just us,

where by this point you moved to emceeing like a regional conference, which the Christmas conference, 1300 students. There was a, I mean, this was a big career moment, but it's also a big friendship moment where it's like, okay, there was a little bit of divergence that you were in seen meetings and on stage and it wasn't a duo thing, you know?

So publicly you started to develop this reputation and become known, not just at NC State, but at other campuses when you did this. And then, you know, I was there as maybe like a behind the scenes producer, director, so to speak, but like to be on stage and to sing a song that was, and we had done it, we had done a song and like, it was me and Tim singing with you.

But then that was a big moment for me in terms of like, our career definitely, but I think our friendship when we were both performing up there. And then that was the start of us being seen as a semi-professional duo. And right along that same time, because my first Christmas conference, I'm seeing Gig was as a senior.

And then the second one was basically when I tried to graduate in December. You ended up getting married in June, that following June, and then Greg ended up getting married six months later. Right. And we performed at his rehearsal dinner. Right.

And we took that same song that me and you and Tim had performed, that Unibrow song, and we turned it into, you know, the, we've seen Greg naked, soon you will too, hope you enjoy it more than we do, song and that was, it went so well. And that was when Jessie and Christy, on the way home, they were like,

y'all need to do something with this. Like you need to, like you just doesn't need this to be a party trick. Yeah. Like, what are you gonna do with this, like you need to, this doesn't need to be a party trick. Yeah. Like what are you gonna do with this? You know, in this conversation, I find it interesting that we never referred back to that blood oath. When we're making all these decisions

and we're starting to become known as a duo, as friends, but then also publicly, once we started taking their advice and started writing songs, making more videos together. We didn't harken to the oath. It was kind of like, well, that was a, I don't know, we never told anybody about it. And then we never talked about it. It wasn't like once we made the oath,

we were constantly like, it was different than when I said we gave ourselves permission to just dream and like to passionately follow it. We were, I think we were following that commitment from the oath, but we never thought about it that way. At least I didn't.

And I think I would be much more likely to do that than you. But neither one of us did. So I do find that interesting that it, I think the oath for us was, there was a film school component to us. So when that didn't pan out and we just got, we went into engineering at NC State and we were still roommates, there was still this like,

okay, it's a little too vulnerable to say at any point, I really wanna make something happen with the two of us. You know, it just kinda, it felt like we were on this track of like, well, we're studying engineering. What were the opportunities? We're gonna open an engineering firm together. Exactly.

Even though there were two different disciplines. And then I was convinced even while I was in school that I wasn't gonna be an engineer, right? So I tried, I proposed the idea to my parents about changing my major because we come from a different generation. Our kids would just come to us and say, I'm changing my major.

Yeah. We had to go to our parents and like ask permission to change our major. Whether that's better or worse, it's just a different generation. And I was like, I wanna change the communications because I think I'm just going to go into ministry because I had done the summer, two summer projects.

And I was like, I think I'm going to go on STEM, which is like short-term international. It's where you go to another country for like a year or longer and you, you know, you evangelize in another country. And so I was kind of thinking I might do that. And I was already kind of thinking I was gonna marry Jessie.

And so I was like, well, she's not even graduated from college yet. So my mind was in this place where I was like, I don't know, I'm gonna do something like that because we didn't- And I was thinking I'm gonna do something responsible because I'm getting this degree and my family would kill me if I didn't use my degree. It's probably what I was thinking I'm gonna do something responsible because I'm getting this degree and my family would kill me if I didn't use my degree.

It's probably what I was thinking. But Campus Crusade, I mean, Christmas Conference was we had no intentions on stopping doing that. And I think in my mind, I wouldn't have articulated it this way, but if you had asked me what is the big thing that you guys did together at that point, I'd be like, Christmas Conference.

And then maybe one day we'll get to MC Big Break, the national, which we ended up doing, that you guys did together at that point, I'd be like, Christmas conference. Yeah. And then maybe one day we'll get to MC big break, the national, which we ended up doing, the national conference in Panama City. And so I think that I was thinking about it in that context, because entertainment for entertainment sake wasn't something we were interested in

or even knew what a path would be. Right. So I think to me, it was like, oh, we found our calling, it's ministry, and we're going to use our comedic gifts or whatever in that context, and that's the thing we're doing together. But I didn't know, I didn't have any specific like path in mind.

And there was this dynamic of you were generating more opportunities because you were in front of audiences as basically a comedian. And I felt like it was more up to you to include me or not and I wasn't gonna like push or beg for it. So the fact that that happened and that, there was a point where it was like, through my lens, it was like you kind of bringing me along.

I don't know if you thought about it that way, but like there might've been a little self-consciousness that it wasn't like, people weren't demanding a duo. They were saying, hey, here's an opportunity for you to keep emceeing stuff. And so, to me, when we created a comedy show that was very much equal, that was the next thing

where we were trying something again. Now we're in this point where it's like, how much are these career pivotal moments and how much are they friendship moments? Well, they're completely both because it was this acknowledgement that like, we can do this and we're going for this together. We're taking this big risk.

We're taking, we're dreaming about it and we're following through with it. And- Yeah, it was when Cole, my brother- Your brother's giving us an opportunity to do something. So let's make a comedy show that works in the context of a crew meeting on campus. He was like, can you create like an hour long show that's evangelistic in nature, but comedy based. And that was when we created that show.

And we were working as engineers and it gave us a reason to get together. Like, would we get together and just hang out? Yes, but like we live probably 40 minutes apart once we were both married. And so it's hard to get together, you know? You're newlyweds, you're trying to build a life, you're in different communities.

All of a sudden we had very little overlap, yet we were still, we were volunteering doing this thing that brought us together on a weekly basis. We were writing, we were still doing the things. We were writing songs, we were coming up with bits, we were making plans and we were obsessing about it. And this will come into play a little bit later. And it was fun.

This will come into play a little bit later with, you know, another pivotal moment. But I think one of the reasons that I've always saw these things as hand in hand is as like our career and our friendship, which we talked about previously, there's an interpretation of that, which is just like, oh, well, if we weren't working together, we wouldn't be friends,

which we can talk about how we kind of addressed that and talked about that years later. But to me, how do you cultivate a friendship, right? You spend time together doing the things that you're passionate about. So some people might be like, yeah, that's my golfing buddy. I play golf with this guy.

Or this is the guy that I, we love getting together and doing this activity. Like we love archery. We get together and we're in the archery club and we talk about life and that. Our hobby is our career. Now we have other hobbies, but when I think about the one thing that I would rather do

more than any other thing, it's create. That's my hobby. If I was an engineer, I would have a creative hobby on the side. I would be like, yeah, I do these creative endeavors. I have a YouTube channel where I talk about so-and-so, so-and-so, but my full-time job is engineer. I have no doubt that that's what we would be doing. And so that was always a point of connection to me.

And I never saw it as a cheapening. I saw it as a, this is my hobby. And it's also his hobby. And now it's become slowly over the course of that, like making that decision to do that comedy show, then Shane saying, can you guys turn this into an actual ministry position? Us turning it into, again, we've talked about all of this.

I hate to keep saying that, but we've talked about this in this. I hate to keep saying that, but we've talked about this in detail, so I'm moving quickly, but we became full-time missionaries with Canvas Crusade for Christ, using our comedy to train students in evangelism. And that's when I think that was a really significant period of time for our friendship,

because we ended up traveling around the United States together. Sometimes just me and you, sometimes we bring the traveling around the United States together. Sometimes just me and you, sometimes we'd bring the wives and the kids. More often we didn't because it was too expensive. So we would just be, we would fly somewhere and rent a car or we would drive there. And so we were on the road together,

sleeping in the same hotel room because again, we had no money. Right. And so it was like the idea of getting two hotel rooms, like what, who do you think we are? And so we spent so much time together, we would be in the car together, we would be working together,

we would travel around and then we would go back to the hotel room and we would share a bathroom together. Right, like it was, those are really pivotal, we would share a bathroom together. Right? Like it was... Those are really pivotal. We do not do that now. We get our own hotel. Yeah, we don't need that. Forty years of friendship, the one thing you do need is you need separate bathrooms. Right. But at the time, it was this pivotal thing of just like doing life together. At Mark's, our puffers are made to be explored in, and our shoes are made to be walked, run,

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Shop everything you need for back to school at IKEA today. And I keep going back to like, the dreams never got smaller. They kept getting bigger and we went after it. And so it was extremely risky and exciting and hard. And it required a lot, but a lot, but it was rewarding and it was fun. And it was, I mean, the amount of time spent adventuring, you know, the version of going out and chasing cows, you know, when you add a specific dream and objectives

to that, that you're completely aligned on, it just cures the friendship. It just solidifies it in stone. I think, you know, forever. And it wasn't like us doing that and spending that time together was causing us to be like, I don't think we should, I don't wanna do this anymore.

It was very much like, we gotta keep doing this. And we gotta get better at this. We gotta see where this thing can take us. And again, at the time it wasn't to become professional entertainers, it was still within the context of this ministry, but we had an idea that this ministry could be huge. You know, the thing that makes me so excited right now

is if you just clip out what you just said, and I'll be like, oh, yeah, he's talking about WonderHole. He's talking about what we're doing right now. You know, I think that's the thing that makes me so happy. That's the last thing we're gonna talk about. But, okay. But it's completely mirrored in it, okay. Oh yeah.

All right, so we'll get back to it. Let me look at my list here, damn. First comedy show, did that. There's so many like little points, unless you've got a specific one. No, go ahead. Mine are kind of later. The place that my mind goes is the road trip

out here to California. Well, I think before we moved out, the online nation trips were still like, it was the same thing that we were talking about, like you and I traveling out here to LA for the first time, shooting a television show that we started to realize it sucked. Yeah. And like that whole experience was like...

And we left staff because we had to in order to do it. And again... Oh yeah. At the time, the rationalization was, well, we're going to have so much more opportunity for ministry by actually going into the belly of the beast. And again, we'll get into why, Maybe. What happened. But I, well, let's talk about the road.

I think I can contextualize what actually happened in the road trip. I definitely put that on my list. What we called, because we filmed it, we filmed it ourselves, there's nobody else there. The mythical road trip series, which was basically us moving out to LA. Like driving a U-Haul with all of our crap in it.

One U-Haul, half full of your stuff, half full of my stuff, pulling my minivan behind, driving all the way across the country and announcing where we were at, what rest stops we were gonna pull over at so fans could line up and meet us. And that was, yeah, that was a big milestone in our friendship. And that was, yeah, that was a big milestone

in our friendship. I mean, it's iconic. Moving across the country and, you know, we left our families behind because we're doing them a favor. And it- Put them on a plane. Yeah, put them on a plane once we got all our shit out here. And then we had this special trip, you know, that we were taking.

That was content. I think we were probably still staying in the same hotel room, by the way. Probably, yeah. Why not? I mean. I don't know if you remember it this way. And again, we've talked about,

we've done whole podcasts about the deconstruction and like how we got from being a Christian to not being a Christian. No matter how many times we talk about it, the story for a lot of people will be, well, it's because you became inter, it's because you moved to California, that's what happened, right?

Even though it was happening very early when we were in North Carolina. And in this road trip, I remember, it wasn't the first time, but some of the most memorable conversations of me telling you that I thought that it was all bullshit happened on that road trip. Really?

Because I have this picture of us being in this U-Haul. You driving sometimes, me driving sometimes, and me basically just being like, I just don't, like here's all the things that I can't believe anymore, and here's the little sliver that I'm holding onto. And that is just the concept of the idea of Jesus and the gospel.

That was what I had. Yeah. Right? But I had let go of a lot of fundamental beliefs about the Bible being true. And I hadn't quite dove so deeply into like, you know, the historicity of Jesus and that stuff, but I was kind of like in the like, but telling you a bunch of things during that trip. It totally times out.

That I was like, I just, you know, I don't know what exactly, I still felt like, I still had this sort of evangelistic mindset that like we were still like going out to California and like Jesus was going to use us for something. But because I was so much less certain about my beliefs before we ever got to California. I remember that road trip being significant in that sense too.

I think I talked to you more directly about that stuff. Definitely. Than any other time. Yeah, because I was, you know, the opportunity to move out allowed me to skirt having to leave my church, which I was on the verge of doing. So I was very much there on my own journey. As far as that particular road trip

and those particular conversations reflecting our friendship and it being such an important part, I think it's that this was a, it was a secret and sacred exchange. We were filming, we had a GoPro. We would film, anytime we would think we wanted to film something, we would turn on the camera in the U-Haul

as we were driving across the country. Because we had our minds, we had mapped out a bunch of videos we wanted to make, but then one of them was just, we're going to capture what we were, you know, just the experience and some of the conversations. You can see in one of the videos, we were talking about our hopes and dreams related to our career, and it was like very real. But you know what we never did?

We never rolled on the camera when we were having these like deep soul searching conversations. And I'm so glad we didn't at the time. It would take 10 years before we open the doors to those conversations. But the amount of time that we spent having those conversations, it wasn't, the reason why I don't remember it

is because there were so many. You know, again, if you add up, the time spent talking about the depths of our soul and what was changing and how scary that was. I think that's the undertone of like the spiritual evolutions that we were each on was very scary and disconcerting. And it just throws your life off balance.

And the fact that we had a completely safe and open place to discuss it all the time, all the time. Like I remember once we got here and we, I remember we would get lunch in, you know, around Studio City. And I remember all the times walking up and down the street and, or on our, cause back then we could, we could go to places to eat lunch.

Now we're too busy to go places to eat lunch. The, that would be our time that we would just, we couldn't help it. We would just talk about it. Hours and hours adding up of just processing. It's like, and what does this mean? What does this mean for like our salvation, for our future, for our families, for our marriages, for our friendship. It was like, it could have been a threat to that

because certainly we weren't exactly always on the same page, so it was like, oh shit. I think that's a really interesting observation. It was huge to have that. There's a really interesting observation. It was huge to have that. There's a really interesting aspect to, that was unequivocally the most important thing in our lives and it was being dismantled, right? And the funny thing is that there's a lot of times,

because that's so foundational, when that foundation goes away, a lot of things that were built on that, whether that be a friendship, a marriage, a career, those things crumble as well. But to me, and I've actually only ever talked about this explicitly in the context of my marriage because it's a little bit more,

it's a more relatable story that people who are married and are both Christians and got married under those pretenses and on that foundation, one of them or both of them change their worldview and then they get divorced. Super common story. That didn't happen with me and Jessie, it didn't happen with you and Christy. And that was, and we've always said that like, wow,

we kind of learned that our love for each other was actually not rooted in that worldview. That worldview was just a way of seeing the world. It wasn't the way to see the world. It was a way to see the world. Now we see the world in a different way. We could be wrong. I don't think you can be particularly sure about that.

But our love kind of survived that because it wasn't based in that. And as we talk about this, I'm realizing our friendship wasn't based in that. And as we talk about this, I'm realizing our friendship wasn't based in that. It was enhanced by that. It was, having that common mission was really, you know, strategic for a lot of ways. And it also true, it wouldn't have existed without it

at a certain point as we've already established. But it never crossed our minds that, oh, we're not Christians anymore, so we're not gonna be friends. And at the same time, it never crossed our minds, oh, we're not Christians anymore, so we're going to stop believing these ridiculously unrealistic dreams

that we thinking things are gonna come true. Oh, I think it crossed my mind because you were ahead of me. And I was like, okay, he's not gonna be a Christian. I'm gonna be a Christian. And I think we can keep this together because I just don't think I care as much as he does. So I think I can just, and then you know what?

When he comes, if I'm just, if we stay in that realm of not being completely aligned on what we believe, we're still aligned on so many other things, and he'll come back around. There was a window of time when it was just like, okay, he's going off. It's just a phase. It's going off. There's been window of time when it was just like, okay, he's going off. It's just a phase. It's going off.

It's been plenty of phases before. That's what my parents wanna believe. And that's what I would tell myself. And it might've been just for a period of like one, two, three months, I can't remember. But I do remember having that thought and saying, I'm just going to listen and be a sounding board.

And I knew that I wanted to keep the conversation open and ride it out. I wasn't, I was never one to argue. So there was a strategy at a certain point that was like, okay, I feel like there could be a threat to our bond here. I'm just gonna ride it out. And then I might be saving his life eternally at some point.

That's not how it went. Yeah, and that never really crossed my mind. That's because I'm such a great friend. I mean, it crossed my mind about my marriage. And the only reason it crossed my mind is because I had been told by everyone that I knew. Me too. That the only way you can stay together

is if you're both rooted in Jesus. And so then all of a sudden you're not, and you're like, okay, is this when it just ends? I think it was such, but just to get back to, it was such, it was so formative to our friendship to have something that was just for us. That was deeply personal. It was also for me and Christy,

it was also for you and Jesse, and then the four of us were also talking about it. But the way that we talked about it, I think was so, going through that experience together of spiritual deconstruction was extremely formative because it was, there was no chance of it being, there being a public component or a business component. It was a personal spiritual friendship thing for us.

It was clean in that way, and very deep in that way. So it was nice for it not to have the career and business parts of it. Directly wound up in it. So it's, I mean, it's definitely, I mean, it's probably top three. It's not an actual moment, but it's like, it's a big phase.

So where are you at next? So there's a bit of a blur once we get to California and everything starts growing over the past 14 years, right? Yeah. And we basically have just continued on this track of relentlessly pursuing this dream together, hand in hand, still sharing an office, and just these things keep happening and we're kind of just there for them

and it's the career and the friendship but I think that that for me brings to mind, I don't know what you, I mean I can't remember exactly what year it was when you wrote that letter to me that we've talked about. Oh. We talked about, I don't know how much we've talked about it. We talked about it on Howie's podcast more than we talked about it on our podcast. But it seems like it was, I don't know, what year was that?

I don't know, man. Like. There was the letter that I wrote because it was about, if our friendship is just about what we're doing publicly, if it's just about the work, I don't wanna keep doing it. It was basically like, you know,

the balance got out of whack for me. Like the work got away from us and I felt like our connection was thinning. I would say around 2016, 2017. So 2017 is sort of the pinnacle of this happening, of us over committing, right? Cause that's GMM 22, where we did like five episodes, five videos a day,

buddy system, too many things. Christy's head injury was happening at the same time. Yeah. And so those things combining created a sense where it may have been true, what I said earlier may have been true, that I'm still doing my hobby with my best friend and I'm seeing you as much as I've ever seen you,

spending as much time with you as I've ever spent with you. Right. But we're both really stressed out. It's work. We're just working together and not necessarily being friends together. And that was your interpretation of it and I don't think it was a wrong interpretation.

My response to you at the time was what I just said a second ago, which is, oh, well, I've never really seen it this way because I feel like I'm doing the thing that I love with my best friend. And so us going after this dream that's getting bigger and bigger and bigger feels right to me. And you were kind of like,

what about the stuff that's not work related, right? Because that's sort of the pitfall of it becoming, your hobby becoming your job and your friendship being monetized in a lot of ways. And also doing too many things. That led to me going to therapy. That's when I started going to therapy, when I had my physical manifestation of stress.

But there was, there's two faiths, there's like, then there was a time period after that, and then there was, then that email came back up at a second date. Like not too long ago, like maybe last year. Okay, so it was coming out of the- Maybe two years ago? Coming out of the pandemic?

I don't know, I just remember I was with Jessie, I don't know what, I don't know how it came up. And I was like, I think this is me going to therapy for, having gone to therapy for a few years and getting more in touch with my own emotions, but also just sort of like making a concerted effort to like increase my emotional intelligence. Where I was like,

hey, Link wrote that letter to me, that email. Let me see if I can dig it up. Right. And I dug it up and read it, and then I read my response and I was like, oh wow, this is not how I would respond now to this. Because the way I responded was like, yeah, I don't see it that way.

Like I actually think that we spend all kinds of time together and our friendship is as good as it's ever been. I don't see a dichotomy between, let's just go do stuff that isn't work related. Like let's go paddle boarding and then let's make videos together. Like they all seem the same thing. But I was like, that was a really insensitive response

to that because I didn't actually validate your actual concern and be like, I understand what you mean by that. And like, if that's how you see it, then this is what we can do to meet eye to eye on that. We didn't see eye-to-eye at the time and I Don't recall how much of it I don't recall concluding Completely from your response like okay, I give up this is it we're done or something because that didn't happen

It was somewhere in the middle. It was like this is I Don't it wasn't the response that I was needing, which you recognized when you revisited it. I don't think, I can't really recall exactly where I landed on it, but it was kind of somewhere in the middle, you know? At least I got it out there and there was an effort

to put some work into our friendship separate from our work. But it was kind of this, it didn't fix it because like you said, when you revisited it, it was like, oh shit, I missed him. Right. When you revisited it, it was in the context of Right. When you revisited it, it was in the context of,

you know, the pandemic, that James and the Shame being an independent project that like, we had some barriers built between us that made it hard to discuss that openly. And we drew, I drew, I, you know, I was hurt by a process that if, that you weren't doing anything wrong, but the way that we,

the way that we didn't talk about it and see each other about it wasn't good for our relationship. So I think within that context, as best I can remember, or at least around the same time, you revisited that email and pull it up. And I think that, like you kind of, while you apologizing about that

and you kind of owning and like some regrets associated with how you responded was a pivotal part of kind of breaking down those walls in our communication so that we could see each other again. So I think it was very difficult because there was a part A and a part B to it. Definitely a year in between, right? Oh yeah, at least. At least.

But it kind of bringing that part A back into the part B where we were having these post pandemic issues, kind of like brought it all out. And yeah, it was like a new level of talking about the friendship and talking about what we wanted and being able to express our needs. And I know that was a big takeaway for me is to say, well, if my needs aren't being met in this friendship,

that's something that I can bring up instead of just, if I harbor resentment, that's gonna build a wall. We're not the same people. We may not have the exact same needs. That doesn't mean that we don't love each other and that we don't need each other. But we've always, when people ask us,

what's the key to having such a long lasting friendship? We say it in a lot of different ways, but it boils down to communication. I mean, so much of it and like hard work to make a relationship work. Everything that we've learned in our marriages to make those work, those principles apply in their own way in our friendship.

And we talk about that, but you never know what circumstances come together to make that extremely difficult to do. And I think that's what we discovered. And, but then we discovered that we did have it in us to, to say, to like be completely exposed and put ourselves out there and get through it. And so it's, it's funny to me how it's fuzzy

because it was so pivotal in terms of who we are and as a friendship duo, you know? I think it's certainly a, again, I mean, definitely a top five, maybe a top three, you know, going through that. I think so. It was like, I would say it was the number one test of our friendship. Like realizing our promise to one another,

ironically became the biggest threat to our friendship, you know? ironically became the biggest threat to our friendship. And it could have gone a sad way. It never got to the edge. I have no story. I guess when I was writing the letter, writing that email, I remember I wrote it on a plane. And I was like very, I mean, that felt very on the edge of like, this is kind of like a breakup letter.

It could be, it's gonna be the beginning of the end of our friendship as we know it. the end of our friendship as we know it. But because, I don't know, there was a lot of beautiful moments in there and I think because we worked through it and we like, you showed up in a way that at one point you weren't capable of and then you became capable of it and you showed up.

And that meant the world. And I think in my own way, I'm sure I was doing the same thing. I wasn't, you know, I was a different person from writing the email from when we revisited it too. And I think that a big part of it, this is what communication is important,

is like when you think about like, the weight that you attach to that email, there's a negative interpretation of the weight that I didn't attach to it, which is like, oh, I didn't see you and I didn't hear you. The positive side of that is, like it never crossed my mind that there was ever a breakup that was even a possibility.

I would have been like, what are you talking about? That's ridiculous, right? And I think that that leads into, and we've talked about this extensively, but like the James and the Shames stuff too. Like for me, it was never, I'm doing this thing that's gonna be my thing and Link's not part of it and this might become something big.

It was always very much just like, our friendship is solid, our working relationship is solid, our career path is not changing, our career goals are not changing. I've got this thing that I feel like I have to do. And so it isn't perceived as a threat to me, but that doesn't mean that you perceiving a threat

is insignificant. But because it wasn't a, because I didn't see it like I was doing something threatening, I didn't appreciate the way that you saw it. And because we didn't talk about it. So I think the biggest lesson that I learned in all of that is like, just communicate these things

and think about how your actions can be interpreted and actually get on the same page about things, right? So that, I mean, that's kind of where, for me, the biggest lesson in all of that was like, I mean, first of all, I'm just a different person than I was when you wrote that email. I wouldn't respond in the same way. To your credit, you did, well, like, physically show up.

Like, I landed, I got home, sent the email, the next day, you were physically in my backyard and we were sitting there talking about it. Yeah, I mean, it wasn't that, I didn't dismiss it. You didn't, I mean, you weren't an asshole about it. You just, you didn't see it all. But I basically just told you, I was essentially like, I don't know why. You talked me down.

I don't know why you see it this way. Right, you talked me down. Because it's not true. But you were there. I mean, you literally showed up. So it wasn't like you were an asshole. You were the best you could be at the time. Right. But I do think that this all leads up to,

eventually we have to end this podcast. Well, let me say one thing else about this. The thing I feel about, again, I find it interesting that it's fuzzy because it was so formative to our friendship now. But I also find that as I talk about it, I'm not, the emotions that I feel, I feel like I could cry about this,

but the way that I would cry about it is that I think is a beautiful thing. I think it would be tears of joy. Like I'm not, like it's not welling up any undelt with wounds. And yeah, I mean, thank God for therapy for both of us, right? Because I know for me God for therapy for both of us, right, because I know for me, there was a lot of like,

yeah, there were tears and talking through it and like me having my own process, which was just for me. And then allowing us to have our process. But now it's not like, I feel good about talking about it. And I think that's why it's fuzzy, because it's in the past and it's like, the application, the lessons learned, I think are baked in,

whether I remember the details or not. So it's not like, oh shit, am I gonna, are we gonna repeat the past? No, I don't think so. I think that I feel really good about talking about it. And that says a lot. Well, and I think a big difference with where we're at right now,

and this kind of leads into like the most recent, but also the next and final piece, as far as I'm concerned, is our decision to do what we're doing with Wonder Hole, right? Yeah. Which is a, you know, we talked about the reasons for why we're doing it the way we're doing it. In it, you know, a disillusionment with trying to do things

and with through a traditional path and just making the decision to just make the thing that you wanna make. But I think that the significance of this as it ties into our friendship is that the foundation, you could say in many ways, the foundation of everything that we do from a content perspective is our friendship, right?

That's sort of the bread and butter of Good Mythical Morning is just us being together, hanging out. That's sort of the bread and butter of Good Mythical Morning is just us being together, hanging out. But, Wonder Hall is significant in that it's the place where the friendship is the foundation, but also our passion for the things that we wanna create together, meet.

Yeah. Good Mythical Morning is our friendship on display, but we're stepping into a framework that has been maybe established by us a long time ago, but it's something- It's not a synergistic expression of an artistic adventure. Yeah, and we have no plans to stop doing it, and we love doing it,

but the thing that we want from a creative passion standpoint, we wanna make the stuff where we're trying things and we're experimenting and there's been this getting on the same page creatively and like trying things and not knowing whether or not something's gonna work, but knowing exactly what we're trying to make work. But also from a subject matter standpoint, being able to really explore our friendship

and turn the lessons that we've learned as friends into the message that we're communicating through this project. Yeah. It's been pretty freaking significant from a friendship standpoint. I'm really excited that we've processed enough and now have gotten to a point of appreciating

what we've got to a point where we can turn around and package it as a gift to other people. And I think it's something that we've got to a point where we can turn around and package it as a gift to other people. And I think it's something that we've done, I mean, looking for Miss Locklear back, it's on the list for that reason. GMM is what it is. It's interesting that we didn't talk about starting it,

but like that is a pivotal moment. Like that, I would say the first episode, like a pivotal friendship moment, of course. And all the planning and the hatching of that. Can't go without saying it, but yeah, I think that just packaging it as a gift for people and making people feel good. You know, it's nice.

And it's just been fun because it's just, of all the things that we do, the creative process, like really being in a room and being like, what if, what if this happens? What if we try to do this and then this? Like that's what we're passionate about. That's our hobby. And you know, everything else that we do,

I mean, obviously we get to sit here and make a podcast where we talk to each other and catch up. And it's a product that our company makes. It's fricking, how does that happen? How do you get the privilege of doing that? I'm not gonna lose sight of that. But again, it's talkingicking, how does that happen? How do you get the privilege of doing that? I'm not gonna lose sight of that. But again, it's talking to each other. It's not, there's not a creative,

same level of creative element to it. So there's just this strange and wonderful coalescence of a lot of things that are significant. And then the net effect is we end up spending a lot of time together, traveling together to make this stuff. Like we end up spending time together and then while we're together,

we are discussing the thing that we're doing, which is making this piece of content that is a tribute to our friendship. But that kind of is what the, that's sort of what we keep coming back to. Yeah. I had a couple of smaller ones, but nothing that I, that it would make sense to go back to now. You have so many, so many little things.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And this is, but yeah, that's it. I think that's the, it's nice to know that like the core of what has made our friendship work is where we're operating from now. That's what WonderHole is in a lot of ways. First of all, and it's gonna take work for,

we are applying a lot of work personally for it to stay there, and cause it's hard. It's hard for it to stay something that is, it's a lot of things besides just to, you know, just that like joyful creative partnership. And so we're trying our best to preserve that as the core of this. And it's, you know, back when we were kids

spending the night and just having dumb conversations or Deciding to see if we can get the cows to cross this Stream for no reason just because that's what we want to be our objective today like that level of Playful Open-ended adventure, I think, is where we still are. That's what's so wonderful about it. And just the, you know, in itself,

just making the thing and putting it out there is part of the adventure. You know, as we record this, we are just a couple of days after the release of the first episode, which has been well received. And I think that overwhelmingly positive reception and people kind of understanding what it is

that we're trying to do and kind of getting it in a way that we were hoping that some people will get it. We know that everybody's gonna get it. But I think that there are quite a few people hoping that some people will get it. We know that everybody's gonna get it. But I think that... There are questions like, oh, I thought this was gonna be a scripted show. Like I thought you guys were...

Hold on now, you're getting into work. Well, can't we talk about work? No, no, but what I wanna... We're talking about a friendship. No, no, but my answer to, is the reason the show is what it is, and not that we'll never do something that's like, yeah, this is a scripted serialized show.

One of the reasons is because that, when you think, when you kind of take our friendship and our creative partnership and you break it open and you look at its parts, you're like, oh, well, these guys just being friends together and experiencing something together is such an, who's gonna say what?

It's such an important part of our friendship and even our creative process. Yeah. So that's an element of it. But then the, oh, what if this thing happens? What if there's a song? What if we do this little stupid sketch? What if the world changes in this way?

Right, right. That's also an aspect of our passion. And so my answer is, well, it's twofold. The reason that the show is what it is is because A, the platform that we're making it for, and so there are certain sort of restrictions that lead you into the direction that we're making it for, and so there are certain sort of restrictions that lead you into the direction that we ended up going. But just as important is that is,

it's much more representative of our friendship than say buddy system in that way, because that like, oh, two guys in the bathroom, butt to butt trying to change clothes is an encapsulation of our friendship that we didn't want to leave out, I guess is ultimately what I'm saying. It's like, the show is what it is in some ways because of that's who we are. So if we do five years from now, ten years from now, 45, 50 years of friendship, we'll have that much more stuff to put on the list. That's how I feel about it. Oh yeah.

And I can't wait. We're just getting started. Happy 40th friend anniversary. Oh, speaking of happy anniversary, and shaking hands. You're gonna promote that now, huh? Oh yeah. Look at this iconic moment. We merchandised it. Look at the iconic moment, Link.

We didn't talk about us shaking hands at the senior prom. Yep. Which has become a logo now. That's a cool sweatshirt there. Celebrate your friendship with Mythical. Yeah, happy anniversary, man. What are we gonna do on the actual day? Well, that's just for me and you to talk about.

Get a steak dinner? Mm-hmm. All right, we'll talk at you next week and leave us a voicemail, 1-888- EarPod 1. EarPod 1. And a nice review will never be bad. See ya. Just gotta let you two know,

and you probably hear this all the time, that I made a best friend because of mythical and Good Mythical Morning and all that. But she said yes to being a bridesmaid in my wedding, even though we live across the country from each other, all because I sent her a little dinkin' and stinkin' shot glass and said, will you be my bridesmaid?

So thank you for allowing me to do that. Love the merchandise. Talk at you next week.