Earnings Season - BrickTalk - The "Boring Market"?

Episode Date: January 17, 2023

On this week's #BrickTalk @RTRowe & @HDanhai are joined by a few callers including billionaires Paul Simpson and Chris Berry. Paul gives a bit of his life story then brings in the rest of his team to argue the idea that APO's can be anything but destructive to Retail Investor's interests and a company's share price. This is not one to miss. Give it a listen. 📲Contact📲📧Mail - [e-mail]🐥Twitter🐥  www.twitter.com/Earnings_SeasonRandy - @RTRoweDanhai - @HDanhaiOfficial Data Provider 📊 - www.MyMoneyJA.com🔗Links🔗MyMoneyJA - https://bit.ly/ESZNMMJA (12 month discount included)GRWR Beginner Investor Workshop Link - https://www.everymickle.com/grwr(Enter EARNINGBRICKS at checkout for a 10% discount)Monthly GRWR Subscription Link - https://www.everymickle.com/store2 Advanced GRWR Short Term Investment Workshop Link - https://www.everymickle.com/agrwr(Enter EARNINGBRICKS at checkout for a 10% discount)Danhai's Advisory Session (Automatic 5% Anniversary Discount Included) - https://bit.ly/ES2YREF ★ Support this podcast ★

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Speak to a licensed investment advisor before making any investment decision. We'll be right back. You can hear me clearly. It is nice. Not great to be honest. Oh boy. I think this will be as good as it can get for now anyway. So let's just run with this evening everybody. Welcome to this week's Brick Talk. It will be a shorter Brick Talk. And I don't think we'll have a YouTube stream this evening. We're just doing audio this evening.

The lie detector determined that was a lie. So, welcome to the Brick Talk on the boring in-ear quotes market. I'm Randy. That's Danai. I'm Danai. There we go. And Danai is an advisor, but I'm not. Nothing that's done or said on this show should be taken as financial advice.

Neither of us are acting as financial advisors. No, Dana only acts as a financial advisor when he's officially in a session. Having said all of that, welcome. If you want to join in the conversation at any point in time send a speaking request and we'll be more than happy to hear your thoughts otherwise you'll hear whatever Dana and I want to talk about and then we'll be done yeah so this is a short episode as we say it's a a nice uh short hopefully nice nice short episode this week. Then I was calling a financial advisor a while ago and realized, yo,

that's a deadly term these days. That's when I had to have insurance. Oh, yo. Boy, street throw. Oh, my God. One chop. My God. You know, I was saying to myself earlier, like, you know that moment he did, like, so I was saying to myself earlier, at the end of that moment,

I was saying to myself, boy, is the people finding the field or are the field finding the people? Right? It's crazy. How much does that know? How many know?

I saw another one come out. That was another institution. Yeah, bro. That is madness. Yeah man Bro That is madness People And the moment I had was But it does make sense I mean

If you're a thief Then you're going to put yourself Beside people's money right Why I guess God But I guess there's a lot of questions

To ask me With my little Small knowledge of the space i mean i'm not necessarily surprised because i don't want to know about the space i think more people know are maybe wise enough to what you think yeah man what i've been saying for years say yo listen one if you have enough sense you can manage your money no matter what situation you're in you need to have an eye on your money You need to be able to at least It should be

It should be You should at least be able to Touch base with the person Or persons That have Control over it If not If you can't touch yourself yeah nothing in this space is

beyond you from you can read when you can go shop and come back for the right change you can invest on your own and these days it might be very very important that you are the one um doing it yourself It says what? Yep Wow And him again He's a channel Keep it live that's his Joseph What's Joseph? Joseph what?

And the worst part of him again People are speculating on how he'll find out And in my head I'm like How these things usually go. The person is being bound to find out and they have to say something. It's not the internal, oh my god, bells ring, something will find out. It's usually, do you know what they've done right? And then you go check it.

Yeah, um... Yeah... That's what I said. That's what I said to that. Yeah, it's... That's all I'll say to that. Yeah, it's, that's crazy. It's crazy. It's a hot week, boy. A hot week. And I think, why not?

I think maybe a lot more people. I mean, I hate to be, I don't want to be all doomy and gloomy, but it's one of those things where you know like there's more. It's what we know, right? Yeah. It's what we know of. Much what we don't know of. I mean, the good thing is that more eyes being put in that direction. So, yeah.

Why? Well, I see some of the numbers, though i wonder like i literally wonder yo what could it where where could it go you you wonder what that's right it does so yeah some of the things in here don't make sense. Some of the numbers don't make sense. So what do I do? At what point did you think, you know, it's kind of enough? What was the plan initially? Like, ah, cool, I'm going to rob that money.

I'll bugger money. It must find at some point. It must see at some point. And if not, what am I going to do with it? That's going to be so normal for my life. I always wonder what would be in that situation. They must be sweating bricks at night. They must be.

They sleep good at night. They're not afraid. When I get it, where does it go? What do you use? Yeah, it is... Oh, God. it does not you know ah gosh i don't get it that's all for you it's like wait i think you're six million now what do i do what do i do with it six million usd what do i do with it oh me and i i don't know not you like a person stealing it what the hell are you doing are you having

like what are you doing in a team six million usd what's your plan like you're gonna buy one and then where do you read if me i four about kyc i say yo john don't start i forgot to forgot bank how much where you get the money everybody's worries that at that level it's the it's much touched bank money and you're tiffing it from a bank so oh that's crazy it's crazy i'm truly trying to understand like i'm tempted i want to i i wanna play like the game like what would you do with it what would you do with it like seriously what would you what would you do with it me country was better two million us what did what do you do with it and then so after so often and it's so often is that you know the people that the people that in the position

you know do these things you got in the position to do these things it's not like they have a typical like you know enough money so you have me get out a bag of money right now not gonna get a big house or whatever you get my house the people are doing these things often you you know, the house out there, the care out there, like, where you at, boy?

You know, you know, Steve? That's crazy. Yeah, I think, I think that's just the, the one,

like, I really want to understand it. I like to a lot of people, I mean, I get, I get that to a lot of people. It's a big number. In any,

in any space, anywhere in the world, it's a big number. It's a big number. In any space, anywhere in the world, it's a big number. It's a big number. Yeah. But it's a number that puts you in a certain class. Exactly. If you look upon six million accounts and say, I'm going to take this, you must be far from reality in my head. And again, what do you do with it?

Exactly. You sat down and said, I'm going the plan what happened to the money then what actually happened to the money yeah man that's crazy It's mad It's mad on a level that I can't It does not compute In a month At all Like

I try to figure it out but It doesn't make sense to me It doesn't make sense to me you don't make it's hype let me look what i'm gonna calculate uh that's like like one point odd bill yeah if a man teeth money and buy food i mean like you need you need food it make more settings than that i mean i read like like, it does. It's over my head. A thief, $1.2 billion.

Cool. What's new? Yo, Elite Diagnostics, entire market cap is $1.1 billion. Brother, I need to take that cash. Yes, sir. And usually, it's like, oh, cool. Can't find the money. So, I mean, it's a white spin-off already, right?

So, what do you spend that on what what are you doing yeah imagine imagine imagine something like imagine buy something that's actually your journal that little expensive right like somebody buy a yacht give me a super expensive car i don't think you could have it done. Exactly. But then, if you're stealing that much money, then

your plan was to spend that much money, right? You get it, it just don't make sense. Ah. Imagine this sense. Imagine they must be fretting how good I am. Imagine being in a position where, yo, I keep more money than I can spend.

A bag of it is on the account, see me. It must be so hard. You're only probably somebody else. Just look at the wrong... Look at your file one day and say, that doesn't make sense. It's very easy to get to that level. Like the person has this much money, this much money come in, and it just don't make sense. Imagine your whole life hinging on that. Imagine your whole life Hinging on that That does not click in

Jetcon's market cap is 600 million Tifa company Tamroka's market cap is 500 million That's two listed companies You could buy entirely And it don't work that way Exactly It don't work so listed companies you could buy entirely. Just so. And it don't work that way.

Exactly. It don't work so. That's why I'm wondering that maybe I trust the market focus because that's where the money go immediately. But then if you think it's like the people who have a plan for lottery.

Exactly. If you're staying at that level you must have a plan for lottery, you'll never buy a lottery. Exactly. If you're staying at that level, you must have some level of general. Some level of, okay, this is what happens at that level, right? So you see if 1.2 billion feels perfect, you're saying that? I don't get it. I really don't. Because any person thinking that never see 1.2 billion. Any person does, okay, I'm going to spend practically a minority of it. You have to be at a

strong level of your own. It's not about level of... You're talking about organized crime levels for that money. There's a lot of things on this for that money to disappear properly. You get me? Or this money can actually...

If you steal that money and spin it and he and he's not a red flag or he may not caught on that it went somewhere you know it just nobody can really look on that properly it or maybe me wrong but that's crazy otherwise where you really are spent if you're not spending that if you're not even going to that then your teeth if you're a pension like your teeth if you're you could have you could have stolen way less and did the same life you're gonna live because a lot of the money gonna be in that account for you say that if if in the case that's where i was getting the steel and get away with but to me something either something more or i just don't understand people that work like that i mean granted i don't think it's all one time so i think i i know but over time it's

1.2 billion in a lifetime is still a lot of money to us to us yeah imagine 1.2 bills over a lifetime 100 years you can spend you can't spend that much money a year it does you get me if you spend a meal a day or formula day you take it 36 years to get um to spend a bit i don't remember the exact calculation, but something like that. Like, it's not easy. I also can't fathom the money just sitting in cash. So I don't think... People talk like it's cash, but I mean, practically, I can't imagine that it's just cash sitting there.

That's also a wonder, how that works. Yeah. To me, yeah, if it's cash, then that's just wild. If it's property tax, that's also wild. It's a different way. But if you're leeching on a broker, then you can't. Because imagine that. I don't know actually the details of it.

I don't want to speculate more than so but it could be how Janu the money come in and you say it's spent but you never actually spend it yeah I think some ways something go wrong or something just never

yeah I don't know but that's mad that's thief. That's teeth. Yeah, I can't... There's a whole lot more that needs to come out about it. But I think from another angle, I think the space, the whole industry might now need...

The whole industry might now need... I don't think the industry will even give a damn like that but to me, I can see the value now in like something kind of has to be said, right? What do you mean? I mean like trust-wise, the general

trust of the public is I mean, I think things like this will definitely take away from it the general trust of the public is... I mean, I think things like this will definitely take away from it. And things like this, especially so much like coming out in such a really serious short period of time. That's... Yeah.

I know back in the day... How would that something be said? Actually, I don't see anything being said. I don't know if it's a situation... How would that go forward being said. I don't know if it's a situation. How that come across? How they go forward with that? I don't know if it's a situation where silence can ring, though.

But then, I don't know. I mean. I mean. How much time we see that in the manifest? You know, really. I can't see. Who would come forward and who would say what? And to who? I don't even know. I have ideas know. I can't say. Who would come forward and who would say what? And to who?

I don't even know. I have ideas, but I wouldn't put it forward. I see Sir Barry just sent a speaking request. I don't know if I want to bring it in. I think he had something he wanted to say on this. Sir Barry, how are you doing? I'm good, man. I'm good.

Top of the evening to everybody. Same to you. Evening, evening. Same to you. Evening, evening. Same to you. I know all things. Like I said, I don't know if it's something you want to comment on or what. Yeah, so since this is primarily a stock investing group, what I wanted to do is give people some pointers about,

we all invest with people who we trust, but there's an old statement, trust but verify, right? So there's a lot of ways to take this type of risk out of your portfolio, and it's not hard. So the first way is the JCSD, which each one of us who owns Jamaican stocks, we have a JCSD account. And you can get a password from the JCSD where you can go online and you can check the balance that's actually in your account so that's held at the GCS D so whatever the GCS D says your balances is what your real balance is alright so you might get a broker statement and a broker save it

will say you have you know a hundred thousandank, a million NCB and 10 million Mayberry and you can go on your JCSD platform and you can check that and see that it's really there so trust about verify there's some other things, easy ways to check. So, you know, when you're dealing with a good company, companies tend to send confirms directly to clients. Not, you might get a confirm through your financial advisor, but you should also be getting a confirm directly from the company that doesn't go through the advisor so what that means is that once there's a trade on

your account you get a notification so if you you you know I mean we get so many of these notifications a lot of people don't read them but you know just glance on it make sure it's a trade that you actually ordered. And so if it's coming directly from the company, the only way someone can tamper with your account and you don't know is if the company is actually in cahoots with the person, which, I mean, you're not really, if you see a situation like that,

you need to move your account. I mean, I've never heard of that before so so that's the second way and then the third way is like at mil we have the main app and you know you can bring up the app or you can see what's in your account and then if you want double check that you can go ahead pull your jcst statement on the computer and check that back against that. And it's supposed to match back. Exactly. So it won't have the cash positions in it but it will have all the

stocks. Equity. Yeah. So for the people on your program, which are primarily stock investors, you know, I mean, these are some simple ways that you can check to make sure that your account is in good health and so there's really you know no need for people to panic you know just trust but verify

I agree with you there in fact for my money GA we actually have a feature that we're looking to put together that will allow people to see that. That's after verification, making it easy for them. But until it's launched, I don't want to say too much. Randall, I'm hearing you, cut out. It was a little. Sorry, I was saying that for MyM, J-A, there's a feature that will help with that verification that we're looking to implement soon.

So, when we drop it, it will help. But this situation, you're right, trust but verify. It's a reminder to people that at the end of the day, your finances are still your direct responsibility. So, you still have to check on them. You still have to check with them

yourself yep j trader j trader plugs into jcst so you have a live update on anything on your day trader it tells you the actual stocks you own in the portfolio on that jcst number so sometimes there have been cases where you see a difference between what the JTrader actually says and what the broker statement says and I've seen where that can help you do some of the remediation on anything going on with your account so

anywhere you can check the JCSD directly you're good to go that's a good point there so Sir Barry outside of this shot well i mean how are you how do you view this from your perspective because you've seen years of this entire industry i mean has it ever really been i know it seems shocking no because there's a lot more reporting of it happening now but i mean from your perspective with a wider view and more

experience how do you view this whole thing you know whenever something like this happens is disappointing um you know i i am i don't want to speak about this specific case but just to say you know that you know fraud is it's that's why they call it fraud right because there's always people out there trying to do bad stuff. And, you know, we all play a role in trying to minimize this. You know, as we were talking about before, there are some techniques you can use to make sure that your own situation is safe. And, you know, we always have to be trying to upgrade the

industry standards and the individual firm standards to create situations where if people choose to do these things we catch them early so you know

I think this will definitely force some improvements in the industry standards, even though, you know, from my perspective, you know, there's a lot there that people could have been checking along the way so that they could have had an early warning about what's happening in their account. So, you know. Yeah, that personal responsibility. I see you actually have a thing you always say. What's that, take an hour? Is that an hour a week or a month?

At least an hour a week, you know. And check on your stuff. Yeah. You know, it's important. But, you know, I mean, this is not... This kind of situation, it happens in every market. It's been going on for a long time. But every time it happens,

it's not good. It's not good to have this happening. But we just all have to pull together and play our part and it will help to minimize these kind of things. Agreed.

So if the person who was managing that money, you know, obviously is not an expert at managing large sums of money because, you know, doing individual checks back to the source is a normal part of that kind of activity because if they had looked at their JCS these statement assuming his stocks which I don't know so I don't really think I don't want to talk about that because I don't really know but no matter

what it is, you still have to do some checks and you know that kind of money though just going to be missing overnight Agreed, agreed some tools I never wanted to step on but you're right, it's it can only

and if it went, if it went missing overnight, then I'm apologizing to the person in advance, you know. Yeah. But I think we also know that, well, let me not speak on it at all, because

Yeah. Yeah. We don't really know what happened. Yeah, I don't know what's happening at all. And in brighter things I see that another chance that your bonds have closed yeah it's going very well

it's going very well and you know since we launched you see that a lot of other offers have come out with some of them not exact same offerings but some of them are not exact same offerings but some of them with even much higher rates

so people are tending to buy off the higher the ones with the higher yields first so we have to be closing them going down because you know it doesn't make sense getting to you know

overwhelmed with the more expensive stuff because you know we doesn't make sense getting to you know over web the more expensive stuff because you know we need a mix we need a mix so it's going very well so like you're also keeping an eye to the potential allocations i like that um you i and i noticed that it is now being said by in multiple spaces that people are doing bonds and they're planning, they're being very open about the fact that they're planning to list them. They plan to be tradable bonds. I see one large house mentioned up to, I think it's today, there was an article where they said... Was it tradable or just listed on a thing there? Meaning, is it on the public market or the private market that they're saying? The quote I'm remembering says listed on the exchange. I can't remember if it said private or public.

I assume we were talking about the same thing, but yes. Yeah, I don't think they're specified, but I suspect that it will be. I think the trend is going to become making it publicly listable, making it listable on the public side of the exchange, not the private. Yeah, well, just the sheer numbers of the discrepancies in the market, I think is going to drive that. And, you know, I will be very shocked if you don't see a lot more offerings like that. You know, because once it's tradable, I mean, it's just as good as a savings account.

You just have to look at the risk of each issuance. So depending on what the offer actually is, because it could be tradable but unsecured, or it could be tradable but unsecured or it could be tradable but secured and depending on what the security is of course then that affects the level of the risk um so i think people just have to make sure they read the prospectus because you know that's that's key risk. But I think you're going to have a lot more because it makes a lot of sense. I think it's also going to affect the interest rates in those accounts. You're going to see them going up pretty fast.

I think so as well. You know. You're talking about the savings account, right? Yeah, man. They're going to start moving because, you know, even BOJ is talking about the savings account rate? Yeah, man. They're going to stop moving because even BOJ is talking about it. The last

time I checked the average rates in those accounts was 0.5%. It was over $700 billion. Last time I checked, I checked a couple months ago it was at.42 on average across the commercial banks

and lots of people have a half a million a million, two million, five million sitting in these types of accounts so if they even try to take half of that body and by a bod that

enjoy, you know, 10, 20 times the return. I mean, that's a no-brainer, right? I think so. And these days, if you have it sitting in an account, you know, it is, in my, I'm saying this, nobody else on the call is saying this, I'm saying, in my view, it is saying this i'm saying in my view it is safer

in an instrument than sitting in a savings account in light of everything well i i wouldn't i wouldn't go that far you know i wouldn't go that far you can't go that far but i can i'm saying i'm speaking very clearly to the people who have been who me. That's in my personal view. That's all I see. So, one of the things I like to talk about a lot, which I don't own a lot of fixed income, never have personally. So, my company, you know, we're dealing a lot of fixed income. Our clients love fixed income.

But me personally, I, you know, sometimes for a whole year, my money sits in cash if I don't see something I want to buy because I don't like the risk-adjusted returns of fixed income. You know, to me, it's not paying you, you know, when you're earning 1% and 2% and 3%. You know, you're not one percent and two percent and three percent you know you're not really earning anything on your money i it makes no sense to me i don't know why people do it but people do it you know it's still the biggest asset class so i'd rather own some stocks and um you know many stocks have gone bad on me, but the ones that have gone good always make up 10 times for the ones that go bad.

Yeah, I tend not to avoid the go-bad side, but that's part of the game. But you're right, the payoff is way ahead of it. I have not seen any reason to do it, but i've been public with the fact that my expectations for what is being done with the bond market now i think might change things i'm expecting that it will change a lot of how that fixed income market looks um and you're right the pressure on savings account is real savings account i it i it never made sense before to me but now there's literally no reason

to not to still be doing it because even if you're just buying these bonds exactly so like um the system at the gcsd where you have the individual accounts and stuff. I think, don't kill me if I'm wrong, but it's roughly about 30 years ago that we launched that system at the stock exchange to provide better security to investors, right? Because back in the old days, you had to do paper transfers. And sometimes for months when you buy a stock, you don't actually

get the stock for months because the system was so inefficient and you would miss dividends. It was a nightmare. So I was actually on that committee when we were working on that project and we went to Costa Rica to look at, you know, what they were doing down there. And from way back then, you know, they didn't have any equities on their market,

but what they had was listed bonds. And people were trading the bonds like how we trade stocks. So in the individual portfolios, you would see the guy with like 10 different bonds and he would say, well, okay, you know, this is what we're doing and I'm going to need some money next week to pay my kids' school fees.

I'm going to sell some of this one and that one and so forth. So it's a real, I think it can be something really big. I think so too yeah um i i like i i'm a i don't consider myself a historian but i do read a lot of the older stuff especially the oldest when it comes to investing and a lot of the markets especially the us market pretty much was born out of bonds being traded yeah the market is is yeah the debt market is kind of where it started yeah massive and a lot of the listings from my little reading happened because of convertible

debt and then suddenly this debt converted into ownership so why not and ownership you know moved around and so and so it really was the bond trading that that started again not an official historian but anybody else who has read about it um would have noticed the same trends especially in the us market but going back to the the the european markets the the the the puppy market in amsterdam sorry you're saying something just now oh uh i almost lost it. The,

the bond market's opening up, like, tradeability and whatever. It also solves a lot of the issue of, you know, access to funding. Basically, a lot of people are more okay with putting money,

putting debt money towards the, you know, the not so pretty companies that are coming up. They've seen that debt and whatever, versus putting actual, putting actual stake in the company.. They've seen that at that time, whatever, versus putting actual stake in the company.

So, I figure that that should also, you should see more of the earlier stage companies, companies that are not necessarily looking to IPO and the market.

You might see some more in the bond market. Yeah. So, the bank load might not be so, might not necessarily be the first place

these people stop. If things remain as they are. I'm not quite following your data, can you expand a little? I'm saying the thing there, people, people, smaller companies that might be looking to come to market they have an option of going to the bond market instead and people that necessarily they may not be looking to come to market they want to go to a bank or wherever to have financial house i want to get a loan the bond market that makes that makes it more accessible to them yeah man but i think that's definitely going on now i think the real exciting part for me is like um you know it's like the democratization of investing in that, you know, as the market matures,

it gives the average guy more opportunity to get a better return on their money, you know, and, and, um, in fixed income right now, if you, if you're not accredited investor, you don't really have, you can't access these kind of yields. If you're just a guy with $500,000 or $1 million or even $5 million, you can't access 8%, 9%. No, you don't get that. But with tradable securities on a bond market,

you can get that. But with tradable securities on a bond market, you can get that. And so I think that to me is the exciting part, you know, because people's savings don't become more valuable to them. Yeah, I agree. So I think I wondered if that was going to be seen that is really the savings accounts that stand to benefit the most from this. And I guess the players who earn off the savings accounts might not like that as much.

But like you said, I've seen... But they're playing in the same ring. They do the same thing. I don't think it affects them that much. It's a huge, huge market. I mean... I think the people at Lake City is first, maybe people that are already in the investing ring.

The first crack in the dam don't really look big at first, you know. But that's where the dam fails. No, it's not about failing, Randy. You see, you know, we always want to have the sophistication and the, you know, the growth and all of that that you see in the G7. But this is part of what drives that, you know, lots of variability in financial opportunities and financial interests. So, you know, it all works out, you know.

They'll be fine. This is just a drop in the bucket. I have no doubt that they'll be fine. And they seem to be following in the same footsteps too. So I have no doubt that they'll be fine along those lines. Let me ask you questions that I know you might not have the answer to. How quickly after closing do you think they'll be able to list? I really don't know,

but in the past, it hasn't really taken the JSC that long to process our listings. So I don't really think, you know, I mean, two or three weeks, Vox.

Hopefully. Yeah, it's not, you know, most of the stuff is electronic. So there's not a lot of, most of the reconciliation is already done. So it should be, it should be like a typical member IPO is what you should expect. Speaking of which, outside of the bond ones, do you have any ones that you are banking on coming out this year? I know you can't say definitively, but... Well, my experience with listings, you know, I mean,

I've seen people do listings in six weeks and i've seen people take two years to do a single listing so i never really i don't really like to talk about it before you know it's it's you know it's i i can't predict what people are going to be ready. And even recently we noticed sometimes regulators want to take a second and a third look at certain things, which, you know, is their

job and their right. You know, you can't really predict how long these things are going to take. But I think we're going to have more listings this year than last year. I mean, I think where people have to be careful, though, is just don't assume that every $1 listing is going to go to $2. I mean, I think those days are over.

I think those days are over. I think those days are over. I thought the magic number was three. Well, the last couple of shows that the tree don't really work out too good. It's a deal that I guarantee. A lot of people were looking for the tree as like a, you know, it's like a written in stone, you know, Moses and the three never really took place. So I think we don't even need to talk about that. It's like,

you know, we know that is not, not to say you can't have threes and fives. I think, you know, we're the right, we're the right security, the right opportunity,

the right growth companies. You can still have great listings, but you actually got to have to. I mean, you guys have done a great job of promoting the reading of this material, the reading of the prospectuses

and teaching people how to analyze the data. People just have to do a lot more than that. No, you can't just say, well, it's an IPO. We're going to buy it and make a bag of money. You know, those things are over. Yeah, they are.

I've been saying in our group conversations, I've been talking to my group about it and I ask them certain questions. One of the questions I ask them all the time is, do you actually understand what it takes for a stock to triple after IPO? It's not magic. It requires a very special set of circumstances, interested parties, blah, blah, blah.

And I think, as I said, the larger market is catching up to that. I'm excited to see how the larger market adapts to what I think is a more sophisticated thing. I think that the people feeling like they're spoiled for choice the last few weeks of 2022 saw them ignoring

IPOs that I know earlier in the year they would have jumped at. So it will be interesting to me. The most interesting thing you've said there, though, Absurdberry, is that you said that you think we'll see a lot more IPOs. And I'm hoping that when you said we, you're speaking about Mayberry and not the general market. No, I'm talking about the general market.

I'm talking about the general market. Well, I don't know if you caught us last week, but we feel like GK Cap has given Mayberry some competition last year, and we kind of want you guys to take back the crown because Mayberry listing tends to be very

different from the typical listings. You guys have done a good job so far in terms of pricing things and pushing them right away to the market. Yeah. So I personally want to see more Mayberry listings this year. So I'm sure you'll pressure your team to ensure that they keep the quality high, but they put a few things out also this year.

Well, you know, I mean, you know, a few things out as of this year. Well, you know, I mean, I think the argument, the discussion we're having before kind of feeds into this comment. You know, when we were,

when we did the first junior market listing and those whole series of listings that we did, you know, the market at that time was dead. And it had been dead for a while. and one of the things that we felt very strongly about is that we had to be very, very careful about who we brought to the market because we wanted people to have a certain type of experience in terms of buying into a listed company.

And to be fair to a lot of the deals we didn't do, we didn't do them not because they weren't good deals, but because we were just being, you know, over. We didn't want to have anything that came close to a failure because the market was so fragile at the time. I think in today's world, we are way past that. And so, yeah, in my opinion, because now people are much more interested there's a lot more demand um so i think you know the practice of reading prospectus is is gonna have to be the thing you know i i i hope i'm here what i'm hearing let let me see if I can reinterpret for the people. What I'm hearing here is that maybe as I kept the standard high,

and while the standard will still remain high, there were things that maybe 10 years ago, you would think the market isn't ready for this. That you believe that a more mature market that we have now might be ready for it. So brokers in general might be willing to help bring certain things to market a lot quicker than they would in the past i'm trying to follow your media training line there right so i mean you know absolutely

that's exactly what i've said you know so okay you know So, for example, you might have a company which is very stable. It might be fully priced. It may be priced at the market multiple. And you bring it to market in this environment. So how much can it really go up? Does it mean you shouldn't bring it to market? If the owner says, hey, I want to be priced at the market. You see what I'm saying?

That's not the same opportunity. Like if you're bringing a company that has a 30 percent gross rate you know you're pricing it at a market multiple of eight you know those days of pricing stocks at eight are over you know i mean the owners are not gonna accept that you see what i'm saying i i agree with you back then when they didn't know whether the market would bite or not because remember in the beginning even though the offer sold off

people never thought they were going to sell off it's just after X number of them or dozens of them just keep selling off very quickly that people say hey we need to get into this because you're going to make money, right? So now owners have an expectation of price, which is much stronger than back in those days.

So we can't go back to those days. It's a different market. I agree with you 100%. And I hope 2023 is the year we see the action along that line anybody who understands what he just said will probably be as excited as I am right now

yeah this is the market that I hope to see and I'm sure you would have been hoping and planning for it since you've been in the market years before me also so I am happy to hear that I think our company that is coming up will be happy Because since he's been in the market years before me also. So I am happy to hear that. I think back to the money that's coming up, we'll be happy.

Yeah, well, but one of the big challenges, I think, for 2023 is the fact that because interest rates have gone up so much, people who normally just want to look at the market are now going to be looking at fixed income so the number of people who want to buy are going to be different plus the pricing changes with interest rates you know when you when you only get in 0.5 percent of your money you know a 12p or a 14p or maybe the 15p might seem reasonable. But when you get it 12% on your money, whoa, what's that stock worth? It's not the same price.

That's true. Exactly. So we're in a different market where, you know, so you have like a counter trend Exactly. So we're in a different market. So you have like a counter trend in terms of the expectation of the sellers will be higher in terms of pricing. But the market's now saying, hey, we want to take some risk off the table. We want more liquidity because there's a lot of uncertainty. So it's like two streams flowing in the opposite direction.

It's going to be interesting. Very, very interesting. Especially since you're going to be providing options on both sides. Well, I think other people will be jumping in. I mean, NCB is jumping in already. I mean, I think it's going to be very exciting on the bond side. I think you'll see a lot more activity there. I'm banking on that too.

Tell me, how do you feel about let me word this right let me think about this before I ask you because if I ask you it's hard thinking you can't answer it I'll give it some thought but in the meantime tell us what's the most exciting thing for you this week

what else would you like to talk about outside of those headlines and, of course, the closure of your second branch? Most of the things that's happening, that's exciting for me, I can't really talk about. So, you know, I mean,

I think this daily discussion about interest rates and inflation and how long the fed and the boj gonna keep raising rates i think i find that very interesting you know i noticed that they are you know the u.s retail inflation was down in December. The results that just came out a couple of days ago, which is hopeful. But one inflation number is not something that you can really back up. And also seems to be trending the right direction in Jamaica, too. So that's very hopeful. too so that's very hopeful you know you know the thing that I'm kind of you know still you know so the central back has more information than everybody else I did get it early so it, in a sense,

you can't really argue with the central bank, right? They're the big boys. But it's now been a while since they've been raising interest rates. Loan rates are going up. This is going to start

impacting on the real economy now. So, it's interesting for me to see how is the real growth going to play off against these counter-growth initiatives that the bank is putting in place to protect us from this inflation. I think that's going to be the big story for 2023. I think that's the big story for 2023. How does that all play out? And hopefully,

if they do a great job on managing it, then we'll still get some decent growth and we'll be okay. You've always pointed out, I've seen you point out on Twitter all the time, and some people know that those policies, those moves that are made in the name of

that policy, you don't see the effect of it at the same time. I believe he says one year. Well, BOJ says that too. I mean, those are not my words. That's the words of the central bank for the last 10 years. They call it the monetary transmission mechanism. They say it takes from 12 to 80 bucks in Jamaica. So different cultures, it takes different amount of time.

But in Jamaica, that's what the bad guys traditionally said. It's the time to see the effect. So that's not really my... That's what they say. And if you look back over decades, it kind of plays out that way so i would say it's a pretty accurate statement by them based on my personal observations i get you i get you i get you but for me well i don't well, I don't know if you touched this other thing a bit.

For me, I mean, I look at it, I pay attention to it, because you have to pay attention to it. It affects everybody in one way or another. But I limit how – I mean, I look at it, you have to know about it, but you also understand the control or the lack of control that you can have there as a regular, normal person. Outside of maybe pressuring the bank load, they're writing a letter to the editor.

There's not much I can think regularly about it. No, we can't do anything about that. BOT is going to do exactly what they want to do. Yeah. And you can't argue with them because there's no... You can never prove them wrong because there's

no data to show that if they never... They can always say, well, if we didn't do what we did, it would have been worse or better or whatever. You can't disprove them because there's no going back in time and doing something different.

It's just what they do is what they do. We have to have confidence and faith in what they're doing. Yeah. Well, R. There is no R once in the economy. You just have to trust them because they really are piloting

that side. From all angles of address. You raised one thing that I actually mentioned. I meant to say something about I don't know if it was this week or last week when you asked a question about do you think the Minister of Finance should have to be an

elected official? Minister of Finance should have to be an elected official. Yeah, well, what do you think? Me personally? Honestly, I think he should be. I think the minister, I understand. I think I understand why. I think I understand why the minister has to be an elected official. There's only two ministers have to be elected. The prime minister and the finance minister. The person leading the ship and the be an elected official. There's only two ministers have to be elected, the prime minister and the finance minister,

the person leading the ship and the person handling the money. But so if it was, if you were up to me, the finance minister would remain and have to remain elected, but I would not give that person a constituency to run. I would leave it for them to be elected as finance minister. So after those systems where you vote for the prime minister and you also vote for who you want as finance minister. And so the votes count that way, but I wouldn't give them a constituency to run on. I personally don't think in this day and age that

a finance minister who is truly plugged in and handling a complex economy can also put that energy into a constituency. I think that's a split focus that would hurt either the constituency or the country's finances. So far, Dr. Clark seems to have been doing an excellent job, at least with the country's finances. His constituents can speak to. I said that just a moment that I am his constituents. So I see it a lot differently from you. So from my perspective, I think people who don't have the right, don't bring the right skills to the job,

they are not going to do a good job. And, you know, in the case of most of the recent fights at Spittas of Jamaica, they actually got safe seats from their party. And we were just kind of lucky that the party actually had somebody who was had the kind of background required who was available as an elected minister so if you if you think you know if you think of the skills required to run an NCB or a

Citibank or a Nova Scotia Jamaica then compare that to the skills required to run a whole country you know you can't see what's going to happen when you have somebody in that seat

who doesn't have the right skill set. And I mean, Jamaica has suffered for it over decades. You know, we can't see the results of having the wrong person sitting in the minister and fight that seat. You know, Jamaica's economy, you know, the average GDP growth over 30 years is 1%, taking out the last few years.

Outcomes matter, and I think the people who create outcomes matter. I think in today's world, it's all about the human resource and the human capability. If you put the wrong person in the wrong job, you're going to get the wrong results. And so, you know, just like everything else, you know, we have to be willing to tweak things and debate, you know, how we can get our democracy to really work for us. I think that's a really risky point right there. We have the right man right now. I think we have a great

guy, Dr. Clark. But will we be that lucky the next go-round? He's still a young man. Hopefully, he'll stick with the job for a while. But will we be that lucky the next go-round? I don't know.

That's true. While I don't think it's luck, why I'm strong about the elected point is, again, I don't want the person to be elected as an MP, but under a current system, that's the only thing they'll be elected as, right? So, my idea...

You want a separate race for finance minister? Yeah, or... How would you separate it? It really leads into a different system. You want a separate race for the finance minister? Yeah. How would you separate it? It really leads into a different system. It can't be done under a current system. Because the only thing we vote for now is our direct representative. I get what Sir Barry is saying.

Because if at any given point we don't have the right money for the job, we just have these politicians and one of them will get it. No matter which way they go. It wouldn't be the case where we just have to have to have... It wouldn't be the case where we happen to have a guy that's competent and also is in that position

to be elected and then gets elected and then they get the job. There's a lot of boxes to take versus versus just straight up, we find the right guy, we put him in the place. I agree with the problem, you know. But the thing is that even to fix it along the lines that's being said here,

will require a change in system because our constitution requires the Minister of Finance to be elected. But that's a much smaller change, Orandi, than the change you're talking about, you know. I don't think so. What you're talking about you know what you're talking about right now we don't pick the mps and we don't pick the private stuff it's the delegates that pick them so you're talking about a change which is like a massive light year change compared to a

small change which i am proposing yeah but but the thing is, small or large, it comes down to constitutional reform which, to change that document requires a whole lot anyway. So it's the same level of work to change it, whether you're making a tiny change or a massive change. So, do you write it down? Not really. I don't

think so. I don't think it's the same level of work. Yeah, the same level of writing. No, man. I wouldn't say anything. Because if it's a same level of work Yeah, the same level of writing No man, I don't see that Because if it's a big change And a lot more research And a lot more How this could actually impact

We have to go into it First of all I don't see the JLP Think, Randy, look at it like this You see the JLP or the PNP Changing their delegate system To where the delegates Pick the damn lead on the party On the MPs I mean, that's not going to happen the PNP changing their delegate system to where the delegates have picked their lead

at the MPs. That's not going to happen. I'm going to walk the line here and say that our current constitutional system allows anyone with the right amount of delegates to become

to run for MP regardless of party. And while reality tells us that it's only going to... So you the voter don't actually vote for the Prime Minister or any of the MPs. Those are selected by delegates.

Well, yeah. It's a... You just vote for who the delegates choose I would like to remind you About the difference in our bank accounts And the difference in our Consequences

So please Yeah I have a lot more to lose than you Fair play But please remember that Mine didn't matter to me So you're not wrong Fair play. Very, very fair play. But please remember that it might not matter to me. So you're not wrong, but I'm for the constitutional reform. And if we could wave that magic wand, I would want to vote. What I want here is that I still want citizens of this country

to have a direct say in who manages our money. So I would want us to vote, even if it's that the party that's running has to put forward the prime minister and the finance minister that they are proposing, and the votes have to go to that person. Even if it's that way, but I want the citizen element to remain in it.

You can't remove that. Well, I don't say anything wrong with dreaming buddy if you don't dream it don't happen right that's true that's true that's true well yeah I would love to be able to vote for the private stuff rather than have the delegates pick them I would also like that I would also like that but that's just a fleeting dream of mine

I don't think I live to see that I don't know did you think you'd live to see the market be where it is now? yes I actually did damn alright I think now is the time you'd live to see the market be where it is now? Yes, I actually did. Damn. Alright, alright. I think now is the time where I think we're on the cusp of a lot of

political change which affects our pockets also. I don't think our politicians are in the position that they're going to change anything that's favorable for them. That's a different conversation that we could have. I need a lot more room to have that conversation. It's like gerrymandering.

Politicians will change things if they can see a benefit that they are more prepared to adopt than their competition. I think we should talk more about stocks, though. I think we should talk a whole lot more about stocks. Outside of your usual picks, Sir Barry, what's your favorite stock this year? Or what none, I can't say none, maybe since maybe it's you and you move to the footprint, but what are you excited about the most this year? Boy, so we're talking about what's happening in the economy most this year. Boy.

So, so, so we're talking about what's happening in the economy and the, you know, how the streams are flowing against each other. Right. So, so I always like to tell, uh,

the, my clients that, you know, investing is the art of managing the probability of outcomes so i always look try to see hey what's the most likely outcome and effects of that outcome and have that helped me to formulate my investment strategy for the year. So, I would say that financials have done well for the last two years. There's a lot of

opportunity there, but because I don't know what the interest rate, when the interest rates are going to stop being high, I would want to start going heavy into that sector before I have more visibility on the interest rates.

And the interest rates aren't being driven from Jamaica, they're being driven from the US. So I don't think the BOJ, unless the BOJ is going to make a 180 degree turnaround, which I just don't see them doing that. BOJ, unless the BOJ is going to make a 180 degree turnaround, which I just don't see them doing that. You know, they're basically in lockstep with the Fed right now.

So, financials are not really high on my list. I like GMB a lot, but I think as long as they keep hiking rates, I just don't see financials doing very well. Broilers, I like broilers a lot. I think we discussed that before.

They're growing. Somebody pointed out something to me this week. I'm sorry to cut, but somebody pointed out something to me this week that in the past I spoke about it as a tourism stock. And that's partially true too. But, but, but they

it's not as much of a tourism stock as CB because my understanding is that CB have most of those hotel contracts. Not Broilers. because my understanding is that CB have most of those hotel contracts not broiler yeah what CB has had from what I see in the news some some supply issues over the last few months yeah but that's just a short-term thing so I mean that's a short term thing a lot can change in the short term things can always change

I won't rule it out but I hear what you're saying I hear what you're saying so I think CB will still sort out their problems and they'll be back online you think they'll be released? no I don't think so CB will soon sort out their problems and they'll be back online. Do you think they were released? No. I don't think so.

They were released before though. And they chose to leave. Yeah, in fact, Mayberry helped to take them off the market back in the day. So, so, Mayberry might have some say about them coming back no man i don't i i just i i just don't understand the scenario under which that would happen

i i don't see that but anything can change you know it's just about who is leading the company and you know what they want for their family. But I think they have a great setup, though. They have a very strong company. You know, they have determined within the family who is leading the companies, that the companies are all doing well.

And they don't need to be at a public market. So, why you won't create work for yourself when you don't need to be at a public market. So why you want to create work for yourself when you don't need to create work? I want to own pieces of a company that I can't own currently. Yeah, but if you can't own 100% of a great company,

you're not going to sell 10% or 20% or 30% or 40%, no. Not unless you have a good reason for it. That's true. Nobody does that. That's why most of the companies in the world are private. That's why some of the richest companies in the world are private.

There you go. Let me take two from our audience. Two people actually asked us in two different ways. I'll put a third way to it they want to know your position on the current junior market limit and if you have any um preferences as to the race i know that a raise has been uh yeah proposed yeah has been proposed i know your on that? I support it. I mean, I think originally when it was set,

it was about 5 million US. My feeling is that 5 million US is a bit low when you look at what 5 million can do for a corporation trying to put a company together that can really hire you know, hire a couple hundred people and, you know, really produce stuff. And because of the currency movements, it's done way below 500 million. So, you know, if I was not the Minister of Finance, I'd put it to like 10 million US

is what I would do. It's worked great. finance, I'd put it to like 10 million US is what I would do. It's worked great. It's worked great because Jamaica, what a lot of people don't understand about Jamaica is that Jamaica has a huge culture

that focuses on minimizing taxes. There's a huge industry of accountants and attorneys that that's all they do for a living, right? And so people tend to suppress income. And in suppressing income, they suppress the taxes that they pay.

And when companies go public they get higher valuations when they increase income so in my experience a junior market um you know after about year three it was cash flow positive from a tax point of view to the government. You know, it encourages people to print higher numbers and in printing higher numbers, they end up, at first they don't pay any tax. But after you go 10 years printing those high numbers, you can't suddenly stop making money, I mean. If I was a government, I would just audit you

because it don't make no sense, right? So it gets people into a habit of trying to hit higher and higher income and profits because it affects the valuation positively and it feeds into the tax base. The companies have better governance, so they tend to grow faster. They qualify for bigger bank loans. The whole thing is just very positive for jamaica so you know i i would put it to 10 million us and put it in the us so that if the currency changes it doesn't you know have to keep resetting it oh i don't know i don't

know if our law can allow for that though but that's for the lawyers to determine i don't know if we can peg something to us dollars in jamaican dollars under our loss because since it is written in the law but that's what you mean peggy to jamaica us in jamaica yes a side point but i don't think like the jam i don't think the government can like put something right now index one of course you can now that you can't index it not that it can't be done but the junior market limit is literally written into the law. So you can't... Just say the Jamaican equivalent of $10 million. You see?

Yeah. That's all they have to put. Why not? It can be said, you know, but again, I defer to the lawyers here, but there's a weird thing in law where the Jamaican law can't have as its base another currency, even though in reality so much of what we do is public news. Well, let's start split tiers. Let's just reset it every couple of years.

Yeah, give it. You can't find a way to move. Something like that. Revise it or FSC determines the limit and then FSC says something. That can be the only problem. Annual revision. I agree. I agree with something like that to make it a bit easier.

And for the people listening, I wonder what that means. That number that Sir Barry spoke of brings us to about 1.5 billion as a junior market limit. Beautiful. That would be massively wonderful that would be wonderful. Because all I've heard so far is 750 mil and some people have said... 750 and 1 billion.

1.5 would keep us going for another, maybe another 10 years easily. 10, 15 easily. And if it's in USD, then even more, right? You don't find much reason for it to fall. I think that's a great thing. Yeah. That's a good point. The second

one, a little cheeky one. How do you feel about the sharding on the market, Sir Barry? We were promised it last year. We didn't get it, but I'm holding out hope for this year. Boy, you're hopeful. Yeah. Not the first year I hear you say hopeful. Well, I think definitely

shorting adds liquidity to the market, but if you don't do it right, it can also be a nightmare. So, you know, in. So, you know, in markets which, you know, I would say our market is not really that

sophisticated. You know, I know it's nice to have, but doing it wrong would be a bigger mistake than not doing it. So, until JC finds out the right way to do it,

I mean, if it's delayed, I'm not going to be the one to beat him up over it because, you know, shorting means you can make literally an unlimited loss. So you have to have good mechanisms in place to monitor that and to make sure that people who should not be doing that end up doing it because it can be

very painful. It can be very painful and it can be. I leave it there but I would love to see it nonetheless. And lest we forget, it is also a safety valve for the market, meaning markets without charting that crash, crash. But markets with charting that crash, even when it's crashing, there are people who are earning, right? Which saves many institutions.

It actually acts in many way as a in many ways as a safety valve but it the safety is that good it's a good thing when done properly and you just came from risk you can manage that even better then yeah yeah so any chance of maybe stepping out and doing it first on their own? Because I know that technically the brokers can do it without anything changing. We have the legislation for it and everything. Any chance of that? We're led stock, you know. We have been led stock for a long time.

But we won't do it for Tom, Nick and Harry. We don't have our platform which allows us to do that. do it for Tom, Nick and Harry. We don't have a platform which allows us to do that. You know, if you want shots, if you want shots, if you want a shot, you know, it blocks,

big blocks. And you can call us. We work a deal. Word. You know, but it has to be. You know, we wouldn't do that on a retail basis. It's just, you know, it has to you know wouldn't do that on a retail basis just you know take too much time to work out the deal so it would make sense okay I'm hearing I'm hearing loud and clear

times over the years you should write an email asking you know the minimum size of that block I already hear one thing about my pocket from there I don't need to hear nothing else so that was the end of my questions for you sir I don't have anything else you want to hit us with

this evening or anything you want to ask about? Any questions for us? Are the people listening? Because I know you can send in speaking requests. No, not really. I'm just glad to be able to hang out with you guys again, spend time, exchange some ideas, and keep it going, man. You're doing a great job.

Thank you very, very much. Yeah, man. Thanks. Big up. Yeah, man. Yeah, big up. Big up. And thank you for that.

Next up, let me just remind everybody, you can send a speaking request. We will approve it. You can talk to us for as long as either you want or we can. I did expect one person. I saw one person, Miss Krista Forbes, who had a tweet this week, I think. Last week. Then I saw her tweet, the one one which is talking about the reality of finance oh yeah yeah i really like that one i retweeted so much i wanted to find it so i can i can i can

um i don't retweet much i think it might be on my page i'm looking for it yes i can read it properly but big up and welcome miss christopher so you're doing rich oh hi guys i'm good how are you you know answer the question which question the answer is rich so how are you you know rich i feel like that that word is so subjective easy tanto it is it is subjective I found a thread you found a thread

I can share it to the space the space yeah that'd be great so people can see I don't want to misquote you I like't i like the third house i like the point that she made and um it was it was before a lot of the headache started in the in the space so it was good to see in my view it was good to see she was saying that i like the reality yeah i hate most of the financial advice I see on here,

meaning Twitter, because it never takes into consideration that even though money itself is black and white, managing it isn't. It's an extremely emotional process whether we acknowledge it or not. And she went on to talk about the fact that, you know,

quoting the usual financial Finbro advice, you don't need the expensive car. And that seems like a no-brainer to skip buying the expensive car so that you can invest more except some people really have only been working as hard as they do to buy the car they dream of as a kid right and this is also why i don't i being krista here um necessarily think that financial literacy quotation is the key to people's financial freedom i disagree with that part but i'll read on um you can know what to do and not be able to apply it because you're not emotionally ready to that part is true uh if getting your finances together is a part of

your new year's resolution i highly recommend starting with therapy that was a a twist i wasn't expecting i like that. Same. Yeah. Find out if you have any mental or emotional blocks around money. Work through that first so you can stay consistent with whatever plans you make. Another thing is that whether you grew up with money or not doesn't always matter. Your money habits will probably come from the people who raised you. They may have past money habits and beliefs to you that might not

make sense for your reality. If every time they had to spend money it felt stressful, they complained or never let themselves have nice things, you can find that you mirror those same thoughts, feelings, and behaviors because that's what you learned was normal.

So, the money gods touched Krista on january 7th and center the right because except for the financial literacy yeah man except for the financial literacy point i agree with you almost a hundred percent there uh so within that same point there's a thing i like about about that whole point in general because i mean i often talk to people and i know that me, how I think of money and everything is far different from how other people think of money.

And her mentioning that just being ready to take a certain step, it's often the bridge. I think that resides within the gray area where I can't easily breach. Because I'm talking about goals or whatever. In my mind, it's pretty straightforward how you go forward with those things but a lot

of people is not really ready to be there i think i don't know them they know it's a thing i should be doing i know if i'm this age i should be worrying about this i should be thinking about this in certain ways but i just i don't have my mind forward to that point where i'm going to think about this as responsibly as I want or whatever. So maybe I'm sort of rushing myself to be there or I make this step, but I'm not really ready for this step.

I often find out after that. So I think within that, so yes, I think financial freedom, financial literacy, that's the bridging point for people who feel no really know them in any way. It just don't make sense. financial literacy that's the bridging point for people if it's no really no then it up anyway right it just don't make sense without it just doesn't really happen without that so i agree with randy there but within that whole point i think there's something there that i think yeah

something can go on for me i think works yeah so let me the whole reason i was thinking about it like i can only ever speak for myself like i tend i try not to speak for other people because of course everyone has their own life but that kind of attitude you know I'm surprised this long I'm going to try to keep it going um I tend to talk to myself and about myself and sometimes it resonates it definitely works um but it was really about myself like it was really thinking about just kind of like my journey up until this point um being a business owner and stuff like that like I just thought about how how I got to or how I have the mindset that I have today so it doesn't even matter what's in the actual bank account it's just a

matter of how do I look at money today so I was looking at like family I was looking at the people that raised me I was looking at how I who I was five years ago and I was just thinking about how I remember when I was 17 and again it don't matter what's in the bank account today but I had made the decision then that one day one day the bank account was going to look different but I remember at 17 just kind of like seeing adults around me just like every time they had to spend money it just became such a tense environment like everything was when when mountain come everybody face screw and i was just like what is going on like you couldn't ask for anything like i remember in high school that's when i

started my first business because i had a single parent and i was afraid to ask for anything because when you ask for something please get tense please get angry because i only have one parent so i had to learn how to make my own money but that's all i know like so my mother was also an entrepreneur so she taught me how to make money so i always understood money as a concept i always understood from a very early age how to spot okay there are problems in like there are problems that people have and they're going to pay to get them fixed and my mother taught me how to get like how to basically create solutions that people would pay for early like 10 years old and onward so I was basically doing my own business and stuff from like around 14 15 but I never really the part that was hush hush was the how to manage it how to invest it and how to

how to actually just like grow it from there so I knew how to make it so I had confidence that you know what I can spend it because it won't come back and that was the root of my personal issues so I just kind of thought about how from 17 years old, deciding that, you know what, I am going to be I'm going to be financially well off. I'm not going to be like my parents. I'm not going to worry about money. I'm not going to get anxious about it. And this is for a lot of people. So, you know, hopefully my mother don't feel too bad that I'm talking about her family business or whatever. But that's the case for a lot of people that I speak up, speak to. or family business or whatever but that's the case that for a lot of people that I speak up speak to and then after I made that decision I was starting to I was in college I started my

first business it was doing okay but I really had nothing to show for it like the money would come and the money would go into my hair my clothes my shoes it was like where is it going and I remember one day just saying like I can't live like this. So around 20, I decided I have to do something different. Like, something has to give. And it's not until five years later that I finally go, oh, now I understand what to do. Like, it was a five-year journey of learning how to manage money. And it was more, it had nothing to do with the dollars and the cents itself. Because, again, I knew how to make the money.

Or it had nothing to do with the dollars and the cents itself, because again, I knew how to make the money. The issue was, I had so many emotional and mental things that I had learned growing up that actually blocked me from being able to manage it properly. So I had to unlearn that. And I just realized that like it had nothing, like I even studied finance. So I thought that would be the key to my problem. So I was like, okay, I want to to live a certain i want to be a certain type of person in the future i'm going to study finance so i got the finance degree that didn't help because money as much as it's very much yeah you know it's funny there's something funny about the fact that as far as i can tell let me just speak for jamaica on JSC, the richest people are engineers.

Right. I'm sure. Not finance people. Finance people are at best CEOs. Pretty much. So I, again, I grew up understanding that money made the world go round. I had a single parent who taught us, she was an entrepreneur. So she taught us how to build our business and solve problems and make a profit from

it. Started my own business, starting in college and kind of continued from there but studied finance thinking okay that would definitely help me to understand and manage money it didn't it was a completely emotional thing and you think oh or some people might think oh it's because you're a woman no like I know enough people in general men women and otherwise who you can even if they make a ton of money you can tell that emotionally the reason that they have to continue making so much money is because emotionally they cannot manage it like as they make it it disappears so they're great at making it but managing it growing it having something to show for it completely difficult because the managing part is so emotional you don't realize how many people are dealing with

oh when i was younger i felt invisible now i use my money to feel like somebody which means the money just it just go out the door because people need to see it or when I was younger I remember wanting this car and my parents wouldn't get it for me so I just decided that anything I want I go and get it for myself men and women alike have that same thing and a lot of people never even grow out of it a lot of people never even decide that this is something I need to work on they just kind of say you know what I saw like it works for me because i'm making the money but it's just kind of like but you you can make it and you can have more to show for it or you can spend it without anxiety or you cannot have to work as hard as you do to make as much as you do or you can you know most people can't slow down yeah them cats are the cast up reach reach retirement

half dead but we can't quit because you know nothing is like 20 years of rich yeah nowhere yeah and i've seen so much of that i've seen so many like i just watched even like when i was a kid like i was very vigilant so i would look at i remember thinking like going to prep school and looking at all the people who they drive the the x at the time i think around grade six is when x6 come out i'm not sure if that ages me um but that's when the x6 came out and their parents were driving with it definitely ages probably that's when it just came out but i remember like i'm just like where these people know and i'm actively checking because again i've always been interested in the concept of how do you make money last and a lot of these people don't have it anymore so I'm just like what did they do like what happened is it just times got hard or was it that at a certain point in life at the peak of their wealth or the peak of their wealth in their

30s or 40s they were doing the most and working hard because they had the energy and the time to but as they got older that wasn't there anymore or they made bad decisions based on the emotions that they had so i just kind of realized that like it's something that we don't talk about enough we see a lot of financial advice on here about uh skip the i wouldn't say that um i would say like you know skip the nice car you see the advice about buy the house early well the thing about that, Krista, well, I agree completely, but my thing is one that's foolish is the most time.

All of those things are just broad brushes that people take up. They hear it online and repeat it. There's a reason why you can search top five financial tips and everybody have the same one. Agreed. Everybody has the same advice and it never yet actually looks at what everybody one was practical for both people is never what they're saying so it's not like you can actually think that out you know how can people take it and it's applicable to them like and to them no no no anybody alive except them one so it's really hard for me to look at that half the time i think think that I was going to think that I was going to bring it into the

financial literacy point because then that has nothing to do with it. You're not, you're not more financially literate by, by, by hearing half of the advice out of those people give. I agree. Not even half. Like you're not by any, they're not really saying anything that has to do with finance. It's just really, yo, all right, cool.

I heard this. It's the reason why every single time, I get the question, how much of my income should I be investing? That's a hard question. And the thing is, people expect that I have a hard answer to that. They think I would say,

okay, 20% is a month that everybody should be investing. When 20% of your salary is different from 20% of Randy's salary, Randy only needs, Randy only, Randy's expense is nice to the point where he can

invest way more than 30% of his salary. It's not a number I give out. It's half the time you hear things like that. It's a reason why all of them go to budgeting and yes then the budgeting that you hear isn't really the budgeting it's just i have this format and i'm gonna repeat it and i can't really tell you anything that will actually solve your life or your financial needs i'm just gonna repeat something and hope the hell it works you know and it's also like a lot of people kind of jump to the budgeting it's like okay i'm going to get my life together,

which is why I spoke about therapy. Whether you believe in it or not, it's just like there is some work that has to happen before you decide, okay, I'm going to put this plan in place. Like you need to actually understand like what are the things that are going to stop me from actually being consistent. Like that's a lot of the issue to a lot of people. It's like, okay, I can start the budget,

but I fall off by February. I fall off by March. And it's just like... My secret is the reason the budgets don't work is because the budget is not tied to anything. Exactly. You don't start with...

The budget is not realistic. Exactly. There is no goal. There is no, okay, I am budgeting this way. I'm going to spend it this way because I need to put on X amount of money. And this X amount of money is going to go into this place because at the end of this 20 year journey, this X amount of money must build up to this Y amount of money. That never happened. you feel like more money is in my bank account because i feel like i'm spending too much on amazon so i'm gonna budget for three months i haven't really gotten the idea of how much money i should be having but then now i have a lot of money in my bank account and the amazon thing looks cheaper because i have more money to spend on it so i'm gonna spend the money because yo i'm saving this money for what exactly and it's just like the the plan is the reason here the money must come back that's what

people say because yeah you're not saving for anything you're saving money must come back of course because your idea of i'm okay it's 300,000 dollars in the bank account and when i spend it down to 40 i'll save for next couple months to make I reach back that. I want to feel okay for long enough to go back to the same thing. I wasn't really budgeting more than so. Or my real goal behind that budgeting was short-term. It wasn't the long-term financial goal

I wanted to have in my head. It's really, I just need to feel okay enough that my life's not going to crazy right now and I'm not brooking myself on Amazon every month. Yep. And what a lot of people don't pay attention to is just, again, going back to just the fundamentals. my life not going to crazy right now and not brooking myself and i was on everyone yep and what a lot of people don't pay attention to is just again like going back to just the fundamentals

before you can even come up with the what am what are my actual goals like i think um then i had a conversation with you and you're just like what's your goal for this and i was like this is it and you're just like why and i'm just like i'm not actually sure and it wasn't until i went and figured out like what are the things that why am i doing this and a lot of people like to say oh it's for my family oh it's for this like i really have to ask yourself about five different times why why why why like yeah if it's all fancy like if it's like a nice story from a movie it's probably not true it probably is family and generational wealth and a lot of people like when you ask yourself why long enough,

you realize the answer is actually because when I was a kid, I didn't have the 64-pack crayon. Like it's that simple and it seems trivial. It seems like that can't be it. But if you sat with yourself long enough, man, woman, child, doesn't matter. If you sit with yourself long enough, you'll realize, wow, my ambition to hit a certain goal in life might have started here. Sometimes it doesn't have to be negative.

It doesn't necessarily have to be a poverty story. It could be my parents set this forward and I want to make them proud or whatever, or the weight of my parents' expectations. But the why tends to be very, very deep. And what you tend to see in your money, it's just a manifestation of the beliefs that you already have. I always like how you spend your money. How somebody spends their money tends to show me what they actually have going on inside. Like you can make a ton. Making money, again, it can be super black and white.

If you know the formula, if you know what to do, the money can come. Super simple. It's the managing and the spending of it i can look at a person see how they're spending your money and go yeah man you're not okay today are you and it can be something simple like over ordering food on a menu or going for the absolute best thing on the menu every single time regardless of how it tastes like it's small things that tell you that a person isn't okay and it's just like even if you make a ton of money you kind of waste a ton of money by simply just not checking why am i doing the things that i'm doing why am i spending the way i'm spending like you can spend this exact same amount of money

and feel better about it if you simply had a deeper understanding of why am I doing these things. So that's kind of like the whole basis of the entire story is just like it would help a lot of people to stay consistent and also just make better decisions that they're more comfortable with or have less anxiety or hit their goals faster in a more comfortable way that doesn't either burn them out or demotivates them if they simply sat down and said where is this coming from is it the voice that told me that i couldn't in grade three because it sticks with you like when you think about like as much as we're like oh we've been on this earth for 20 odd 40 odd 50 odd years like some things stick with you and form the basis of the entire character and it comes out in the way that

you live your life like there is no getting around it so that was the whole basis of the thread I personally love it because it works on both sides right it's not just from the perspective as you say of scarcity where you just never have it

although it's easy to understand that uh jamaican one of your tweets hit me hard because um the last tweet about if every time your parents had to spend money felt stressful and they complain and never let themselves have nice things and i think about myself and i go oh yes oh my god i'm the friend i'm the guy who will, like, for my family, I'll, yeah, you can have it all, but for myself? Right. I think about how much money I spend for me. I mean, hold on. Hold on.

I'm having this one car joke running. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So it's like even something like that you don't realize that like even small things like that so it don't even have to be a poverty story like there are some people who don't align with that poverty story whatsoever but the people who raised you had their own money blueprint based on where they're coming from so that's another thing that i realized so my mother

grew up in poverty so while she did make while she did eventually just kind of do well for herself she still had the belief that she was one step away from poverty that was just her thing and I see it a lot with like other parents or other people whose parents came from poverty for them it was beat poverty beat poverty so they spent their entire life outrunning poverty not realizing that they beat it 20 years ago but that's their thing so now you come as their kid they give you the platform so you went to the prep school or you went to the primary school and you went to the traditional high school then you went to university like you're a step above them and because of everything that they taught you you now believe that you are still a step above poverty and i granted you know

we're always one ambulance right away from da da from that but the reality is like some of our parents did put us one step above where they were so it's like we walk around thinking yeah so we walk around thinking oh i don't have this i don't have this i don't have this i can't do this i can't do this i can't do this and it's just like that's your that doesn't align with your current reality. Your current reality is that you have skills that are lucrative, where even if you lost it all today, you could go out and make it back. For some of our parents, that wasn't particularly the case because of how the job market might have looked,

how education might have looked. So you take on their beliefs, and that's what you know as normal, and you take that out into the world. And if you never actually sit and think about where did this belief come from, you'll think that it's your own. And that's just the way it is. But that's not necessarily the case. So that's also where that part came from. It's just like you really have to, before you make any plans, before you decide, okay, this is what I want or don't want, really sit with yourself and say, where are these voices coming from? Who is speaking over me? Is this my voice? Or is this the voice of my grandmother? Is this the voice of my uncle? Is this the voice of my cousin? Is this the voice of my mother and my father, who their reality just doesn't look like mine?

look like mine yeah um and what you you also caused me to think about it from another perspective right and it's something that i talk about i talk about it privately and um i talk about it like in the groups and so on that jamaica everybody know the story we had the 90s we had finn sack you know everybody went through we all know how to tighten our belts because we grew up with tight belts. I know for maybe the last few years, some would say since 2015, but for the last few years, people have, we have a younger class of people who have started to make money now. Right? And there's no guidance for most people. Meaning, you legit, sometimes like people people the things that you speak about people ask me about it people talk i'm sure people ask than i for me when i'm doing grow even i'm just speaking at events or people talking to me on

the road or whatever they often come with those questions and i often tell them that listen don't be fooled you know you assume that i know how to manage money well i have never told you i know how to manage money well i know how to make money well yeah two completely different things right but nobody's really putting it very plainly there's nobody out there really telling regular people hey you're rich now this is what you're supposed to do yes because we've been we've demonized making money in Jamaica. So you hear...

I mean, later you think about that. It's normal to hear, yeah, them have a holy part, Chris Carr uptown, but I just credit. Anybody make money too quick, well, probably drugs or something. If them in finance, well They might do all kinds of things

You can't even argue You can't pick up for them The person must be doing Something wrong Or there must be something evil If they made money The Jamaican lie One of the most popular Jamaican lies is,

oh, I don't want to be rich. I just want to be comfortable. I tell people, sit down one day and calculate what comfortable is. What is comfortable? It looks a lot like rich. Yeah, exactly. How many rooms in this house?

Oh, three bedrooms. Okay. What else? Nothing big in there. I just want it. You want to have a yard? You want yard space? Yeah, man.

Where should it be? Well, me on the red crime so you're yes $70 million holes you want to have a mortgage well yeah so you want to handle a mortgage without worrying cool how many times a year you want to travel right two or three times all right of course you're on the first class you don't want to be racking up the credit card and can't pay it so how much when you work that out you're looking on far into the into the realm of rich but with demonized rich so people don't talk about and then sometimes people do things and they get too rich and they don't know this funny enough i don't want to link it this way but it's linked kind of to that question that we started off the whole thing we're talking about What exactly could a lady have done with 6 million US?

Oh. Because if you know, if you understand making money, especially in the financial field, that level of money, a fraction of it could have set you up for life in a way that... That's what I'm saying. Where could the money have gone? I don't know. If it's for the regular purpose,

if it's just a thief money, you never have to do all of that. 30 mil overall. It's what? Sorry, what? That's how it's saying, 30. It's the estimate. Don't trust that. That cannot be real.

But yeah, so Krista, I was taking your point and flipping it to the other side. Saying sorry, that night 13 will just throw me off wickedly. Sorry, that threw me off wickedly. That cannot be real. The tweet was saying 6 out of the 30 is both.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's what I saw i saw i saw that who knows how really too we're gonna ignore that that cannot be real but what i'm saying here what i'm saying here is that you cannot you cannot assume that making money means that you know money and And you're right. Your tweet resonated with me because I see things in myself that are like that. Then I'll tell you how many times I've bought headphones because I buy the cheap ones. I buy six of the cheap headphones. I don't want to be like, wait, why wouldn't you just have bought the expensive one?

And I did that. And I've had that expensive one for two, three years. Right. And I wish we talked about it more. Like, so have you ever argued for that? Meaning they spend more money on this thing because that brand is good enough that it will last. A lot of people fight on it, especially the maker. Trust me, man.

Buy a cheap shirt. So we know why it is. Right. So we want to give people grace and we want to be like, we understand. So what we're getting at here is poverty PTSD. That's the new term

that people have come up with is poverty PTSD. I talk about it quite often. Krista, you just make a buzzword on our program and then try to pass it off? Is this a new fetch?

Oh my God, is that... Sorry, sorry, sorry, sorry. Is this a new fetch? What's going on?, sorry, sorry. Is this a new fetch? What's going on? I apologize. I sincerely apologize. I did not want to get kicked off, but fine.

Buzzword. Are we allowed to use buzzwords or is that a no? No, no, no. I'm asking if you made that up. No. People have been using it, you know? It's popular in Florida. Yeah, no, no, no, no, no.

It was more along the lines of like the term that we're going for here is the actual poverty ptsd so we all know what it is amazing like we've definitely been talking about it for a few years because i think people have been talking about it for a few years i'm going'll cut you one sec. I'm bringing another market player, Sir Paul Anthony Simpson himself, who has been on the market, not the market, sorry, on the timeline, at least my timeline, very active over the last few weeks. Indeed.

Sir, how are you doing? Thanks for having me. You know, sometimes I sneak into your program. Wonderful, wonderful program. You and I are really deep on the markets. And, of course, you know, having Chris Berry and, you know, that's just more guru right there. And I see Simon as well.

It's crazy. You know, four gurus on the market, you know, all in one space. That's just more guru right there. And I see Simon as well. It's crazy. Four gurus on the market all in one space. I mean, I've been... I don't like how you guys keep Chris down. I've been... Yeah, yeah. Of course, we've adopted... I've adopted Chris now as family, right?

Because she's really coming and brought... She and Simon brought Pitch Deck to life which is unbelievable so thanks for the support for the support and Randy and God

supporting Simon and Krista and myself and that massive move. And of course, of course, you know, I'm going to have to ask CB to, to, to, to help out. You know, certainly you guys have a, have a following that is, that is unparalleled on, on, on, on the spaces. I've just, I've been introduced to the spaces by Simon.

I've been on it now for four weeks, Twitter spaces. I've been introduced to the spaces by Simon. I've been on it now for four weeks, Twitter spaces. It's just been a great experience to vent and to share experiences. But I don't want to veer too much. Just saying you guys are amazing in how you look at the market. I wish I had known about this from 2019 or 2018 when I just got back into the securities dealing space. My understanding, Randy, is that you used to beat me up a lot, but that's fine.

It helps us to be better. What do you mean? Hold on. I didn't want to. Hold on. That sounds unfamiliar. I like all of it. I hear it's Danai. I hear it's Danai, right?

No, man. It is Danai. It is Danai. It's us, but I don't want to tell you. I want to first I want to acknowledge the point that we were talking about with Krista which is I think is a very important point so we're going to come back to it now I think you can give a hell of a view to that but since you mentioned that specific point beat up in what way you mean like no man I'm just I'm just I'm just when you when you when you get to know me a little bit more, Randy,

I'm just poking fun. But yeah, yeah. I'm going to poke fun. If you get to know us, then you know what to say. Hopefully, I can convince you on why APOs are not too bad. Not too bad. Not too bad for the market. Let me tell you something. I i'm gonna give you a little

bit of a um secret why at least the spaces i try to do along with that night are good we'll go straight honestly and sensibly you see the fact that you had to kind of say not too bad that you already know you already know the reality of the thing. No, no, no, no, no. I wouldn't, I wouldn't, I wouldn't. So let me just tell you, if you, your skew is to not like APOs, my understanding is, and clearly I'm not on them. No, no, no, no, no, no, no. I'd like to bring it up. So Krista, we're sorry. Let's derail for a second.

Let me give you my view on APOs. Oh, good, good. And then we'll have a good conversation on it. Chris, I'm so, so sorry. We're going to come back. So here's what I think, right? Go ahead. Here's how APOs work for me, right?

Let's say Danai has a company. Danai's company sells cars, right? Danai owns 80% of the company. The rest of the public owns the rest, the other 20%. Yeah. Danai gets a chance to buy the car lot next door. Let's say in Mandeville, the home of car lots and

the car lot next door costs 10 million and for Danai's company to buy that car lot they'd have to raise the 10 million so the company has to raise 10 million they can issue let's say 10 million shares at a dollar each but for Danai to keep his ownership percentage,

and bear with me, Paul, I'm just bringing the whole crowd up to speed. I know you know this stuff already. Yeah, but I consider myself an expert. I would certainly hope so. Yeah, so for Danai's company to get the 10 million, Danai would have to

find, if he wants to keep his 80% ownership, he has to find 8 out of the 10 million out of his pocket, right? We're all clear on that, right? You mean if you're doing an APO? No, no, just generally. Okay, go ahead. I'm part of it. Danai's company needs to raise 10 million.

If Danai wants to keep his raise 10 million. If Danai wants to keep his 80% ownership, he has to find 8 out of the 10. Cool. Now, a right issue, the correct way to do it, would

involve him having to find that money. Or maybe he could go out personally and borrow it or whatever but he has to find that money um and all the other shareholders myself included in that little 20 whatever our ownership percentage is we would have to find that level of money or assuming it's the right kind of right issue which is a renounceable rights issue the best kind i don't assume that's a renounceable right so so what is the difference between a renounceable right issue and an APO? Well, in an APO, you bring in the public. So people who are not shareholders get a chance to come in, which then creates a price point because usually

assuming that the right issue or let's call it the secondary offering. Assuming that the secondary offering is done at a price that is cheaper than the current market price, that would be attractive to anybody who wants to buy in. If you open that up to the public, the public is obviously going to take the attractive pricing. The problem with that is that you now have a significantly large amount of people who have gotten shares

at a significantly lower price and profit for them at least on the jsc starts at one cent above whatever that secondary offering price was and the people in the ring before that lost yeah when the apo came to me yeah i don't have a reason to hold these shares. There's no benefit to the shares. The same shares I get if I buy into the APO. All right. So let me give you a different perspective. So I hear you.

And so clearly I'm not as technical as you and I. Five minutes ago, you called yourself an expert. In APOs. In APOs. But the tech technologies

in the market, I think you guys beat me. But, you know, if we're going to make this conversation fair, my second is on, which is Raman. So if anywhere I fall down

on Raman, Raman, I'm sure, will help me out. So look at this perspective, Randy. You use the example of a car company. And so let's say you manufacture cars. And you want your shareholders to, you want to create alpha for your shareholders over 10 years.

And so your aim is to give your shareholders the best return in the most efficient way possible, right? So you have four shareholders. And in the four shareholders that you have, one of know what one of the shareholders are is is a car is a car seat manufacturer the other one is a car tire manufacturer and the next one is a car uh manufacturers the rims for the car and the last one sprays the car okay so you have in your kind of circle of car manufacturing um four persons who contribute to the making of the car. The rest you have to outsource.

You have to outsource the metal, the aluminum to make the car, the electronics to put into the car to make the car work. What happens then if you wanted to strategically align yourself to increase the return over time to your current shareholders by being efficient and cost effective by bringing a partner that will create alpha in being a partner to your process of making cars. What would you do? That makes complete

sense. What would I do? Hold on, I don't want to. I don't want to. Let me finish. Let me just round out the points because I know I'm right. So what you do, right, is I said to myself, you know what? I am going to bring in a strategic aluminum partner into the business that can see our business. Hopefully I can negotiate on the price

to bring in the aluminum to make the car. And so that will bring into the ecosystem efficiency, cost savings. And so, of course, I'll end up being able to, for my initial shareholders, give them more returns because, of course, the cost of now producing a car, bringing in a strategic partner, should fall. And I'm not bringing him in if he's not going to be creating some of the

potential for being strategic. So he comes in, he speaks to all of my shareholders, Percy, and says, you know what? I am going to give you 20% of what I do at market and offer that 20% saving to the company I'm now a part of. And the shareholders accepts him. How do you bring in that strategic shareholder? Well, you have to issue shares. You have to ease your shares. You have to ease your shares.

No, sorry. You don't have to ease your shares. That strategic shareholder can come in by purchasing shares from existing shareholders or you have to ease your shares. Alright. So, so,

if you believe in the company, you're not going to want to sell your shares that you have. And the shareholders are a matter of fact. The shareholders are coming in. If he's in there for the long term and he says to you, well, I'm in there for the long term, he's not going to want to see you selling shares either. So the best way is to issue shares. And how do you issue shares?

Well, you have an additional share offer. In public companies, you do that through an APO. And in private companies, you call it an additional. Hold on, hold on. You can't just sit there. No, you can't sit there. Additional private offer. All right.

Your turn now. Cool. I'm going to go back to the first one. All right. Your turn now. I'm going to go back to the first one. How would I get that done? I'm going to agree with you there. I would have to issue shares in order to do it. And I would obviously want the partnership with these strategic partners because I want to tie in these manufacturers because Because that helps the long-term growth of my business. I'm still in agreement with you there. Okay. However, I have to remember that I am not the only person in this business.

There's a 20% shareholding, which includes the public. Norman, Norman, Norman. Remember, I'm talking about APOs in general. Private and public. I am also speaking about it. Okay, go ahead. I have other shareholders and those shareholders I have a fiduciary right to them and I

have to understand where they are also coming from. So for me who owns 80% of the company I want, I'm thinking about and I should be thinking about the 20 year journey of the company. Because for me it means that listen, if I get these guys on, maybe within five years, my dividends might be tripled.

Right, right, right. In 10 years, my children might be able to inherit something that is worth 10 times more than what I have because of this move. But there's also a slice of my shareholding that involves people who put them 100 grand in because they wanted it to become 120 grand. Now, if I bring in members of the public at a lower price,

I am creating a price ceiling that is going to negatively affect anybody who cared about the capital gains of this stock. So, yes, I have to bring in the strategic partners, but how I bring them in is extremely important. Excellent. Excellent point.

So, you haven't negated my point yet. I'm waiting on it. Make him try it. Make him do it. Make him do it. Here's where it comes now. So what I would do is I would have a renounceable rights issue. Yes. And I would renounce the percentage of shares that those strategic partners want.

I would renounce it from my shareholding. I would sell them it for a dollar. The rights, not the shares. I would give them the it for a dollar. The rights, not the shares. I would give them the rights for a dollar. They would, of course, buy the shares that they've bought the rights to, and they would then become strategic partners. My other shareholders would respect the fact that I did it that way because I didn't bring in the public at a lower price. So chances are the share price, which they care about and which any strong sense of a CEO also cares about, the share price would likely appreciate as a result

of that. My shareholders would reward me with loyalty and my new, as you call it, external shareholders, stakeholders would also be able to come into the business. And yes, I would be diluted a bit. But overall, the pie would be bigger and I would still be able to hold what I want to hold. And the beauty of it is I also wouldn't have to spend that heavy money out of my pocket. This is how you keep the wheel balanced on both sides.

If I don't think about the people who care about cap gains, then I would do an APO. But those people would be screwed, which is why GMMB is where it is at this point. So let's go down the point. Let's go down the avenue you've gone down. So you've got a few companies in the market that did APOs and I hope that companies continue to do renowned

civil rights issues and APOs. I perished the thought, the last one. So let's say you have a company that an initial set of shareholders were bought in at $9. And you had a rights issue at, let's say, $15. And then you had a rights issue, which is a different type of rights issue that you speak about sell that you speak about a renounceable right to sell at $45 those shareholders

who would have bought in at the business when the business was $9 $9.20 has made a capital gain of what 300% $9.36 $9.45 has made a capital gain of what? 300%? Nine fours, 36? We'll call it that. 45?

So that's 500%. So if you're setting up your company for the next 20 to 100 years, and your majority shareholders are retail shareholders. And you know that you're going to need help from Chris Berry, from, you know, Edufocal, from Stocks on the Rocks, you know, who are not a part of your shareholding, but will provide some amount of stability and can provide 20, 30, 40 times the funding that will capitalize the business, which will in turn, in the long run, give those retail shareholders, those mom and pop guys,

alpha if they stay in the business, how do you bring them in if the renounceable rights issue is the avenue that you choose? Because in the renounceable rights issue is the avenue that you choose. Because in the renounceable rights issue, you're going to be diluted. But how many shares are going to be renounced? Well, you decide, right? No, no.

I'm asking you. So if your amount of shares is capped, you're not seeing any more shares. But you're only renouncing the existing shares that you have. No, no, no, no, no. And that's not what happens in a renouncing variety share. In a renouncing variety share, you are creating new shares, but they are assigned to the current shareholding. By who?

By who? By you, the person who runs the company. No, by the person renouncing. Yes, but remember that you have a say over 80% of the shares. So I could, let's say, okay, in the APO situation, when the APO is done, my strategic partner, my aluminum strategic partner, let's say Stocks on the Rocks, they now own 10% in the APO situation.

Barita owns 10%. Mayberry owns 10 percent. And then I, and then the regular public maybe now owns, let's say, 15 percent. So it would know up to what, 45? And then I own the remaining 55 percent, right? In the APO example. In the renounceable rights issue, I could simply bring in those three people by renouncing 10% of my 80% to one party, then 10% to another party, and 10% to the other party. There is no situation... That is a fair point. If you plan to limit the amount of capital you're bringing in from

that strategic partner. Well, I would expect that you'd have already planned the amount of capital you're bringing in from that strategic partner. Well, I would expect that you'd have already planned the amount of capital you need. I don't want you to have a... The price of getting an open book for capital cannot be... Retail investors should be screwed. That's not a price that I would ever be okay with paying. You can get any amount of capital you want in an APO. You can also get the same amount of capital

in a rights issue. And you can do it in a rights issue in order to protect those retail investors. And then when you renounce your rights in the rights issue, how do you strike that balance between what you want to have and the strategic partner's

intent to own a particular amount of the business? Well, you decide at the start how much of this business am I willing to give up and then you split that up amongst the strategic partners. This is what's available because I am not willing to go below 55% ownership. I am willing to give up X

amount to you in this renown sobriety. I'm not following you on the logic, but I mean, I hear you. I can show you, I can match it up, man. It's literally the only difference between the two is that in an APO, the retail shareholders get screwed. Because what I want to know is

that whatever the APO price is. So hold on, Randy. So the way you're looking at it in saying that the retail shareholders get screwed, I think, and forgive me if I'm wrong, that parochial view is broad-brushed. What I'd say to you is, again... No, sir. No, we can't agree. We don't have to agree.

I'm just... Literally, your company is the only one that has done this whose share price has not tumbled. And that's because, as the market evidence shows a lot of spending happened around the right timing to ensure that the tumbling would be absorbed in fact when i teach a girl i tell people clearly that listen barita is the only one that has done an apo that seems to also look out for their retail shareholders. But I want to tell you, but I want to tell you,

so this is where I'm going. So if you use us as a test case or a use case, and of course, I'm just one director on the board of Baritas. I'll just, you know, speak from a very personal point of view.

If the team, in my view, did not look to strategic partners to bring in a particular size of capital at the time. And of course, you know, persons might look at us and say, okay, well, you saw, you know, a trough coming and he capitalized the business just in time. I think there was an article out that said that Mayberry, Barita and Scotiabank is one of the best capitalized businesses on the market, in the market. To bring in those huge strategic partners

who we thought was strategic at the time, who could bring in one and a half, two billion dollars a pop, three billion dollars a pop at points in time. It would be preparing the business for 20, 40, 60 years into infinity. We thought at the time that in the long run, the retail investor, the shareholders who persons refer to them as the retail investor, the shareholders who, you know, persons refer to them as the minority shareholders would benefit.

And how they would benefit? Not necessarily on the act of the APO or the right issue. It is the business itself now having gotten on and gotten in the strategic partner, could do deals, fund deals, explore regions, which would bring in open new markets, which we would never have seen before, who would then, what would then redound to the bottom line of the

business which would flow today to to to the investor through dividends through no no no no not only through yeah well through dividends yes but what's following me here? That's where I'm going. When the potential of those partnerships are realized, it's not income that would also flow. People would want to get into your stock because, you know, all right, stock because you know all right i just saw mr buffett bought seven percent of uh of of of mayberry right it is what him know what we don't know so i go run down the stock the demand for the stock is going to go up if the man has to stop uh go up then and again then guess what? I'm buying on the potential of what Mayberry can become. I'm buying on the potential on what SVL can do, not what the earnings possible is right now.

And the demand for that stock goes up. But here's what you haven't thought about, Randy. When you bring in a strategic partner, they're bringing in people who you don't thought about, Randy. When you bring in a strategic partner, they're bringing in people who you don't know to be attracted to your stock. They're bringing in a whole different set of aluminum producers that you wouldn't even have access to,

who is now looking at your company, who regard them as their, that partner as a market leader to say, if that guy's looking on your stuff, then right, this must be something I want to buy. And that has nothing to do with dividends. That all drives down to the cap gains. And guess who benefits from those cap gains? The minority. Every other shareholder. Yeah, everybody. Every shareholder. And so my point is,

when choosing a strategic partner to come in, thinking about the minority and majority shareholder, being in the same boat as the minority shareholder, being in the same boat as the minority shareholder, you would want to guess and hope that the board making the decision

whether to do APO 1 or APO 2 or rights issue 2, a renounceable rights issue, would be because not necessarily a dividend play, but a cap gain play, so minority shareholders can make money. So what we did is trust our board to say, well, you know, I hope that doing this APO will cause the right partners to come in and rejig the top 10 shareholders and build a business who can help build a business over the next 40 years.

That all sounds good. But for a minority shareholder who is just trying to pay them school fee and not thinking the next 40 years, a share price that stagnates for three years is death. It means I put my money in and it never goes anywhere. You've had share price, you've had companies whose share prices

have stagnated for 10 years, 15 years. But my point is my point is right. My point is right. Every single company that has done one has stagnated. Literally every single one. Yours is the only one that hasn't.

And again, I don't operate in the other companies, but I'm a board member in Baruta. And what I can say to you is that when you look for strategic partners, the hope is that that strategic partner can bring alpha to the business, which will bring alpha to the appreciation of the synergies in the company, which bring appreciation to the stock, to the shareholders. Go ahead, ask. But there's no argument against strategic shareholders.

We're not saying that. No, no, of course not. I know, I understand. I'm just saying I don't know why other boards would do an APO. I can tell you why we would think about it. It's to redone to the benefit of the shareholders because you don't come into a business for dividend alone. My understanding is you come into a

business for cap gain. When Eddie Focal move from $1 to $5, you can pay dividends for the rest of your life. It's not a 500% dividend. You get it. I understand that. But then Paul... When SVL move from $9 to $30,

I'm not betting on SVL because of dividends. I'm betting on it because Barry understands the gambling business better than anybody else in Jamaica, and I said that here. All right. So that's why you invest in a business. You believe in the management of the business. Go ahead. All right, but watch me.

If there are two routes, both of them can give you the level of buying that you want, including specialized buying from special parties. But one limits you in terms of your the smaller shareholders or any not even smaller one limits your future share price upward movement why would you pick that one over the other one uh you have to be more specific than that no an apo literally no company that has done it with the exception of yours no company that hasn't have a little apo watch list on my money jay and literally signals how many companies have done apos in germany i think at this point i'm gonna say five i have four analysts and i can't remember who the other one is. I know Cygnus has. I know JMB has.

I know, of course, Barita has. KP Reit has. Do you remember any of them? Any of the others off the top of your head? Prove it. And how many have done APOs successfully? When you say successfully, what do you mean? Made money for their minority shareholders.

Oh, what? So it comes down to the money. It comes down to money. So I'm not comparing myself to anybody else. I just know how my board look at minority shareholders and understanding that minority shareholders must make money.

There's a stock that, you know, in 2010 started out as, which I think has been an epic failure, and I'll speak to that a little bit more over the coming weeks. It's going to be controversial. I think it's been an epic failure to shareholders holding that stock. Which stock is that, Paul? I said I'm going to talk about it over the coming week. What about it again?

But in 2010, I suspected that stock was going to be a different type of vibe until they created a different class, which pays a different type of people. And, you know, everybody's not in the same boat in that stock. I think stocks should, for me, when you're going to us, like if I go into SVL and I go into MGE, me know, me are the same boat as the man them who are run the business. I don't want to go in a business

where it's just for stored value. You're not getting a dividends and chances are the money coming out before the money's coming out before it even accretes properly to the stock. And I've thought about becoming an active

shareholder in that business, I could I encourage you to I should, I probably need to sit down with Chris for him to teach me how to do that I already have a class what I can tell you is that going to school is different than practicing, right? Who can't teach, right? Not that saying, Dana, you and Randy teach, teach, teach, I can't do,

because, of course, you've been doing. I've heard that you've made a bag of money. I've heard the secret, Dana. Chris, I see you come off mute, so say something. Randy, I'm not hearing Paul on my end I don't know if other listeners are having the same problem no we're hearing him pretty fine you might want

to jump off and jump back on because I think he just asked you if you he asked a view that only you could give so if you jump back off maybe you close Twitter and come back on you should be able to hear him fine. Chris, you can... Let me see who else.

Dana, you can hear me? I can hear you. Yeah, man, we're hearing you loud and clear. You hear me? Krista, you can hear me? I'm hearing. Okay. Probably text Barry and tell him to jump off.

Okay, all right. Got me hearing? All right, cool. Yeah, so I'm telling you, you have stocks, particular stocks and market, which has discouraged me, by the way, which has discouraged me, Danai and Randy, right? which has discouraged me um uh dania randy right um you know for certain stocks i want to be in that stock that i know that i am in the same boat as the owner i don't want to be no other boat but the one that the owner in because you know um that that owner is going to do everything he can to grow that business.

If there's some other way to siphon money, take money out of the business, have some other class of shares that get paid before you get paid and all sorts of things, and they're doing it in a very sophisticated way while still hugging you up, stay far from that stock. Well, I think that's a dangerous thing to say, though, because so many companies on the market have that sort of dual arrangement. Proven has that as a preference share arrangement that I think allows that. I could be wrong.

I create it also, I think, has that sort of arrangement. I am going to say that I can think of two. I know there are at least two more, but the names are coming to me, but I know I've read of those sort of arrangements. Proven came to mind very quickly though, and I agree. But as long as the ordinary...

Do you invest in proven stock? No, it has not met my investment criteria for you. Yeah, I understand. And plus you're wise. Nobody can beat me, so I can talk. So, I mean, you say you like straight talk. I do, I do, I do.

But I also, I'll tell you like I told Barry earlier, I also don't have the yacht. So please wait till I have a yacht before you bring that. A dry yacht. All right, I won't dry you out. No, no, no, go ahead. I want to hear what you're saying. Because I know Proven has that sort of setup.

And I plan to talk about it. And let me just tell you users while they're on. If you don't mind me saying this, Randy. Follow Stacks on the Rocks and follow Paul Simpson J for Pitch Deck. We're doing some great things. Randy's been helping us. That's at P-A-U-L-S-I-M-P-S-O-N-J. Follow Pitch Deck because we're helping entrepreneurs

realize their dreams 100%. Follow Krista as well. She's also helping on that front. All right, go on, go on, go on, Randy. I'm not begging you, Randy. Randy, no, no, no. The bad-minded thing in the hallway is this. First of all, Randy,

me hear say you used to go to Arden, right randy is that i'm not telling you randy is an arden man right and so i'm supposed to support me 100 percent all right go on randy you're i i i support i support the pitch that movement i support the pitch deck movement because it helps entrepreneurs. As an entrepreneur myself, I love it. Yeah, man. I don't know about the bad man. Nope. Yeah.

I don't support it. Yeah, at all. Which is why I wouldn't have an issue if I didn't want that happening. I wouldn't have it said at all. Yeah. There's literally no worry about that. So I think maybe anybody telling you that, tell them to ask me about it because I'm also very straightforward.

What is that, Rondé? I missed that. You're talking about a pitch deck? No, no. Yeah, I support the thing. I wish I could if I had the money. Yeah, man. No, man. No, man. I'm just saying support it. Support it. Support it. That's all I'm saying. Retweet it.

There's absolutely no bad man that side, man. Yeah, man. I mean, hold on, Paul. Go ahead. I've retweeted it, and I do like that, but I don't want us to stray too far from the point. I think anybody should know about it. The pitch check is a thing that Simon, Krista, yourself doing.

You have a lot of entrepreneurs helping you out, and I'm happy about it. I would love to help out too if I can. And I've seen things that you guys are doing also outside of space i see you talking to garden about education i know that's a big deal um i see you talking about the market more that thing you said a while ago if i could press one but and have it happen i would which is you becoming an active investor in a stock too because an activist investor if you will not even Because an activist investor, if you will. Not even an activist.

Yeah, man. As soon as I send him an email, I am going to become an activist investor in that particular stock. Yeah, in fact, I tell you how you do it. In fact, it's me. Well, if I tell you... If I give you any more hints,

you're going to know it's who. But I promise I'll say it at your next... At your next Brick Talk. Come on. All right. Now I'm thinking about it, I'm thinking G. West has a different class of shares also.

They have that little weird arrangement where the perpetual preferences. Yeah, yeah. There are quite a few of them on the market. I personally, I'm like you, that I don't buy into it. I don't like it. And don't take my balling against APOs as balling against people.

I always say finance carry feelings. People get really hurt when you talk about things. I'm not for that. We should all be able to have a conversation. I'm happy that you're having a conversation here. Randy, you know I don't carry feelings, right? You know, so my brother has led back my heart. I understand.

There we go. don't carry feelings right you know so my my brother has led a back my heart i understand so if you say that i'm happy to hear it but i i can't stop speaking for the people at ikea because nobody else is going to talk about apos and the truth is how how barita has done apos no one else has done it in quite the same way if they were at least doing it in that way, it wouldn't be so bad. The only other thing I've seen that speaks to a similar sort of how you've been talking about it is when KPU Reits said that they are also asking for, they asked for and got permission to do a share buyback a little later on in the future. And I took that as them acknowledging that at some point this heavy amount of shares that's pushed to the public needs to be soaked up by a larger

party in order to allow the true value of the stock to come through the true higher value of the stock to come through without that element everybody's gonna be stuck for years because if you look on all the apos they're at the same place they are years sigmas you're right that the apo price is not below proven same thing kp re same thing jmmb same thing marita is the only one and i mean i wonder what happened if the esop wasn't buying and other larger parties weren't buying if it wouldn't have the same sort of thing well well here's a promise here's the here's a promise um i'll i'll i'm gonna i'll i'll dive now that i know that you know there's interest there i'll make sure i'll dive into it on on on on pitch deck simon write that down for me on pitch deck i'm going to do a tell all uh uh on on on on truth tales on that.

I love that. I love that. I love that. I would certainly be tuning in to hear it. If I can't hear it. Yeah, man. And there's just one more thing I want to say to you, Randy,

which is fundamental to raising capital, right? It's not how you raise the capital, it's how the board uses that capital to make money for the shareholders to create alpha for the minority and themselves as well. Yes, but if my value is not to share price, it's how you raise capital.

I'll just say that now, but let me and you'll just say that. I'll just say that now. But let me and you duke it out. So I've given you a duke. You know, we've duked it out here on your show. Let's duke it out on my show. Where next week. Next week. You know, you ask me the tough questions.

Ask me the tough questions. And I'll answer the questions questions as best as I can. And hopefully, we have legal, so I don't mess up. Because you know they're waiting for me to butt my foot. I'm a tour, right? Well, if it was easy, everybody would have walked it. So that's a simple truth.

But you and Danai, come on, and Danai, you and Randy grill me and grill Raman, and we'll answer. We wouldn't subject Simon to such abuse. Oh, wow. answer. We wouldn't subject Simon to such abuse. But definitely, I'm built for it. So, I'm ready. And then we can go and have a drink

and laugh about it. Alright. Well, I'm proud if we can. But, I mean, we can do it at any time. I don't mind doing it for Pitch Tech, but I don't want to mix up, I mean, people prepping themselves for Pitch Tech and in the middle of this talk,

we'll talk about APR. I would like, I like what's happening with Pitch Tech. I like what I'm hearing from the hosts now about entrepreneurship in general and how the wider spread. I think it's obvious to anybody looking on that. I mean, if Paul Simpson and team looking on pitch deck, I assume it means that if your company is good enough,

Barita is willing to take the interest in them. And if you're looking to get listed, then that could be one of the many routes to being listed that's on the market. So I like that. I don't want to i don't want to dilute what somebody else had to come in with for their company but of course i said the invite and i'll and i'll i'll i'll bring i'll draw chris out as well and and and and talk about 2009 december when when when when he and i had a sit down and talk about um coming to work for

meberry i'll tell all of that oh you used to work for meberry. I'll tell her all of that. Oh, you used to work for Mayberry? No, no, no. When I said, I got an offer from Mayberry and I'll talk about that. Hopefully, Chris... I still have the offer document, by the way.

Oh. It's actually framed in one of my offices. Okay. I like that. I like that also. I like the free marketing you get your burrito will be getting a little invoice from me um

what is funny stuff um people often wonder too why i think people think that i don't know what what has to be done i think if they dig into it they'll remember they'll check and realize that i know a thing or two about marketing but But I'm happy because it helps everybody. Let me use this moment to speak as my friend Raven in the chat. Anybody who cares about smoking, if you are smoking, you want the best accessories, meds, Google it if you don't know it, MEZ. Let me throw free marketing out to somebody who I do know. The rest of the people. Anybody investing?

Anybody investing, you come to grow if you want to learn how who I do know. The rest of the people... Anybody investing? Anybody investing, you come to grow if you want to learn how you can Anybody investing, I want the best advice. Dhowadvisor.com. Let's have a session. Let's talk about your portfolio. We have a lot to work on. This year will be very interesting. Let's go forward with it. Yeah, man. There we go. But Sir Paul,

let's come back to the marketing in a calmer thing that we were talking about before, because we did interrupt Krista. And Krista was making a great point around the psychology of money and how it affects people. And my assumption here, I don't think I could have it wrong, but I don't think you grew up rich, did you? Did you? You know, from a rich, multi-million dollar family. You're talking Krista or me?

No, man, you, Paul Anthonyony simpson no i'm a grow up brock what do you mean all right so you have i grew up in harbourview 18 aqua avenue i grew up in front of the park anybody who really know me i'm not saying they know me but you know you have those who say yeah man i know him i'm to like him. They're talking people who actually know me, right? I'm actually a fact. Simon lives in Haberville. We know exactly where we used to live. The bus used to have to run past Simon's house to come to my house.

So I'm just letting you know that. But education, I must say, and this is very important. My parents were teachers and educated. I made sure that the kids, we kids, knew the power of education. And so, you know, straight, I had to go to, you know, school was very big in digging yourself out of poverty. When you're young, you don't know

you're poor. When you're young, you're contented with whatever it is. Whether you eat one time a day or you eat three times a day, you live with it. You're happy. I grew up in a happy home. Being sad and thinking i was hungry and that was that didn't cross my mind and i just wanted to go home

um and go over to the park and play a cricket um and and and football uh and then you know um i got a blight with the studying thing more than my sisters. You know, so everybody on this call knows I'm an accidental banker. You know, I've had a computer science degree and another one in geology, a double major. You're going to be right every time, you know. And so, you know, so, you know, and then I just kind of stumbled into doing the MBAs just two more years after my degree because, you know, my sister was still in med school.

It's five years for med school, three years for a degree, two years for MBA. So, you know, I just decided to stay. I worked in Bristol in England at Ford. Came home after, you know, went to work at 8, came home at 4, then went to Miss Millie's at 6 o'clock and worked at 2 o'clock in the morning. Miss Millie's is like a KFC in England. And I did that every summer.

I see Ryan on, so Ryan would know. He was on, so he would know. I used to come back to Chancellor, stay on Chancellor. Clearly, that's... Yes, I'm intimate. I know why you do it. Perfect. I know why you do the whole of the

profile interview just now. Here's how you tell us though. So you asked me if i grow poor and the answer is yes and i sent my mother and so you know also the shift from poor to rich which is what we were talking about with krista just now which is that you know nobody's really giving that guide to regular people nobody tells what happens listen, that's what we're doing pitch deck for. No, no, no. Hold on. We can't put pitch deck in everything.

Pitch deck is great if you're an entrepreneur. I'm talking about somebody who... Sorry, Krista. Go ahead. I was saying, if I could jump in, I think I have a more direct question if Paul wants to answer. My girl, how are you going to do that to me right here? All right, go on.

You can't say you know what. Man, you have a plan. Go on, go on. So I think it's a simple question. It shouldn't be too crazy. I can also say mine. But I think we're talking about the specific, like there's a mindset shift that you have to go through at some point.

Some go through it sooner. Some go through it later. So you spoke about how your parents were educators um education was really important in your household so that would have been what kind of what the latter you used to get from that i want to say i don't want to call it poverty because i'm not sure if you use that word but not so well off to know you're doing way better um but there had to be a shift somewhere because our parents would have had very specific mindsets that allowed them to kind of get themselves out of where they were and bring us to where we are so like for you do you remember what that specific if there was a specific mindset that you had to unlearn so it might have been a specific thought it might have

been a specific behavior that you probably thought was normal growing up but as you left your house and kind of went into a different world into the world of potentially finance or in the into the world of probably meeting people who did grow up with money was there a particular mindset that you can remember actively having to unlearn? That's a deep question, Krista. Thanks for that question. If I were to answer that question, it would take some time and run this show. We're not short on time, brother. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

What I'd say to you, Krista, is that that's some of the... I'm going to speak about that on pitch deck. But the short answer, yes, there was a time where, you know, moving, moving, moving, acting, uh, acting well, executing on, on a particular lifestyle, uh, was, was important to, to, to moving from understanding that, you know, um, and I can give you a simple one, nine to five, uh, knowing that you can't expect to be, uh, above average if you're just looking at the clock at work and can't wait until four o'clock comes to leave and so that's that switch uh in behavior or evolution of behavior was knowing that i had to get up at 7 and I gave you the example of where I had to get up at 7

to go to work, come home at 4 and then leave at 6 come home at 2. So if you count out those hours, you quickly realize that over time successful people, especially in initial stages, as much

as they don't tell you, and the ones who have to literally work for it to make it happen, you have to put in the time. You have to put in your 10,000, sorry, yes, your 10,000 hours to become an expert, and then you have to put in your 14 to 16-hour days to outshine your peer to get into the 2% or 1%. So, you know, being up at 12 o'clock having this conversation,

my flight came in this morning at 2 o'clock, 1 o'clock, 1 a.m. This morning went, you know, slept for, you know, my first meeting was at 6.30 a.m. So I had to get up for that. And that comes naturally because of that transformation at 16 into 17 years old. You know, kind of putting in that discipline. So I would say it's the honing of the discipline that kind of transferred to the work, work life. And that's just one of about six things

that I've actually written down that caused my ethos to become enacted. And now it's easy. Now it's second nature. Well, you have to build it up. But I think going back to just that specific money point, because our conversation was on money. I'll speak from my little level.

I started out investing with 10 grand a year. I look back sometimes and I have to laugh. And how I invest? No, if you invest, let's say, if you start with 10 grand and you reach 1 million, how you invest the million has to be different from how you invest the 10 grand. In the same way, if you are somebody to who 10 grand

is a lot of money, and then you work or you do something that gets you to the point of having a million, the mindset that you use and have around 10 grand, you can't have it around one million. However, if you learn by seeing how others do it, or maybe you like to follow a guide like many human beings do, there is nobody really talking to the regular Jamaican

who got it right. And you never win the lotto. Maybe your uncle didn't leave two million, and you bought a big is at 50 cent and you sell it at 90 cents suddenly the two million is now close to four million and then that four million went into i don't know fesco or something else and now it's eight million and but you're still still acting like you can you can't you can't buy the two patty that you want for lunch

because you're broke. You're not really broke, but in your mind, you're there, right? It's the mindset. What are some of the things that shifted for you mindset-wise? With money specifically. Before you answer that, good evening. Pablo, evening, Pablo.

Evening. Yes. This is Kate. Evening. Evening. Yeah. So I can verify that what Paul said there coming from all of you climbing the ladder. That's verified.

Who is it, Kirk? Yes, it is. Kirk, God, I grew up on the top of my road, right? Paul, Paul, Paul is it, Kirk? Yes, it is. Kirk, go out and tell him to grow up on the top of my road. Paul, Paul, Paul. We're not disputing that at all. We never doubt that he comes from that at all. We're not those guys. I know I'm telling the truth, but we really want to understand the mindset, Paul.

And it's not that you have to explain it in full, but I think there's a real point there and there's a real lack there because there's a good class of Jamaicans now that have managed to make money either through entrepreneurship or the market, but they really have nobody to help guide them.

Well, who know, know and who saw, saw. I don't want to cut you off kurt but i want i want a man who actually know tell us not that you don't know but i've seen that part of a little bit more than you when i'm wrong when you're talking that could be true i'm not doubting i'm not trying to speak for the man pocket but i want paul to tell me yeah all right so i'm not going to i'd prefer not to get into that um that whole uh so what is the specific question again randy it's just a mindset anything mindset why is that change for you are you realize you had to change as the money

grows moving from you i don't have it much but i have a good amount now my life changing i have i just for that um so so so i'd have to think about let me let me let me krista krista and and and randy let me let me let me think through that question i'll answer that question next week no problem so i think do you have an answer i was about to say i think it might sound like a really daunting question so like no it doesn't have to be too deep it can be something as simple as for me it was in college and i remember getting a bill so like my business was doing pretty good for at the college level and i remember getting a surprise bill and immediately like my throat started closing up like I couldn't breathe

like I was having a real physical reaction to the surprise bill right and then I looked at my bank accounts and I was like girl you can you you have the money for it the surprise bill like you've worked to the point where the surprise bill you can pay it congratulations but in my head I'm just like oh my god surprise bill I can't manage I was so stressed out by the surprise bill that I had more than enough money to cover but that was because growing up if there were surprise bills it was hell and powder house in the house just because of the situation that we were in so it wasn't until I had my own that I realized like you work and you you work and you spend wisely and you manage wisely for something like this to happen like bills are inevitable part of life you don't just work for me at the

time for me at least it's not just that you get up and work to spend all the money on the things that you like like bills are a real thing and the basis of us going to work is to be able to cover our bills and you can do that so breathe and that was the first thing i remember i was outside of my dorm room at the time and i was just like girl breathe this is why you work so when things like this happen you are not you can afford it and you don't have to wonder what am I gonna do how am I gonna like I could already I could already figure it out so that was the first mindset shift so it's something small like that that I ended up carrying with me that helped me to say, OK, when I continue to make more, I can maintain it. And when bills come, I will not let my world fall apart and I won't start to panic and I won't start to think, oh, my God, as opposed to the reality of my parents that I adopted, is that I can afford

this bill. So something simple like that. That's the sort I think. But I understand if Paul don't have the answer yet. I mean, I don't want to I'm formulating it. Because remember, my situation is a little bit

unique in both my early life. I was always working, so I was always apportioning. My lifestyle hasn't changed now as it did, as it was, I would say, 10 years ago. To. My lifestyle hasn't changed much. It really hasn't changed much. I don't have a boat. I bought my car in 2017. The company gave me a car. I got a Range Rover at a prouder price because we have Duncan as a shareholder.

So, yes, of course, you know, my wealth has grown, but my lifestyle hasn't grown. But I haven't, I've not been the one to kind of switch my lifestyle. So my bills, I live off my salary. Can we talk about that um but sure sure so my life my my my so i get a particular salary from the business um in fact uh my two my ceo and my cio earns more than i do in the business um uh you know so And I live off my salary. So I'm just saying that the way

I budgeted as a formula as a formula since 20 sorry, since 1997 since 1997 or 1998 I still do the same budget now

Albeto it's a little bit but I'll get into it Randy I'll get into it a little bit deeper over time I'll get into it on your show or at Pitch Deck

but I'll get into it if it were ever to come up on your show in the future. I'm going to think about it for the week and give a substantial answer. I think that's what Simon talks about. I see Simon talking about it quite often. Lifestyle creep. Probably another buzzword.

Definitely another buzzword. Hold on. I'll defend that one. I don't think that's a buzzword. Yes, it's a high-end term, if you will. But the core is a very, very real thing. It's not rolling for Tony to say. It's a realism. It sounds like Paul never sucks.

I don't want to use the word incorrectly. So it sounds like he just never allowed that to happen. The same blueprint and the same formula from 1997. I don't i don't know i'll talk about it i'll talk about a specific no man i'll talk about a specific thing my in 2010 i had a corolla uh a red toyota corolla um the guy, one of my directors at the time told me to go and buy a BMW to talk to the clients. So I went and bought a 335. And three months later, a 335i, a 2008 335i and about three or four months later you know I had taken on a manager who is now here on the call Ryan and this is when I was approved and Ryan went Ryan was driving a bluebird at the time and you know they wanted us to kind of you know look a certain way to visit the client so you know ryan went and bought a silver a silver bmw um and and up to today i still have my 335

the only other car car about was an upgrade to that 335 for myself. It was a blue, a light blue in 2016 or 17. I bought a light blue M4. And I bought it. First Global gave me the rent, the loan to buy it. Yes, I could pay it off 9 million thousand times now, but I still pay my $380,000 a month out of my pay and pay for it. And what it does is, and I still have my 335.

Those are my two cars. I have not. I want you to think about it. I want you to think about it deeply because I think what happened is that you missed the point here. No, no, I haven't missed the point. The kid who used to take the bus and go across the road and play upon the ball field in Harbourview. That child is saying lightly that he bought a 335i. It's that shift that we want to talk about.

No, no, no. I think the shift you want to talk about is how do you control the type of money No, no, no. What I said I want to talk about is what we want to talk about. But I understand because it really is a difficult question.

The type of money is that he kind of moving on the on the on the on the on the scale from you know purchasing a a regular um m4 or 335 to be able to buy a fleet of jets if you want is a different type of money so I'm just saying that it's the principle of how you maintain a level head and on that scale and live in the same house as some very popular individuals do for 50 years, no matter how their wealth grows that kind of a formula is what is

what i would want to impart for me how i have looked at it so for me this conversation is really helpful if i can jump in one more time i think this is really helpful and i like exactly what paul said is what i was actually trying to hear i think it does answer the question randy um i think that like for the person who's on the ball field and it moves to the next phase like what I heard from Paul was that there was like a blueprint that there's a there's a money mindset that I'm hearing that it might not have been explicitly said but it's and I might sum it up incorrectly but I have an understanding of. It's just like the lifestyle creep didn't really happen. And for me, the next question I want to answer, that's good to know.

That's what I pretty much heard. The lifestyle creep never happened. And for me, what I would like... That's a 100% cap. But when we talk about it... Okay, hold on now, hold on now. We're talking mindset here. I'm telling Paula that's cap.

All right, before we get into it, we're talking mindsets here. I'm telling Paula that's cat. All right. Before we get into it, we're talking mindsets here. The discipline is real. So we're talking mindsets here. And what I heard was, even if materially things were bought along the way, it sounds as though there was an intentional effort, or it sounds as though there is an intentional effort to not necessarily want to keep up with the Joneses. That is exactly what I'm saying, Krista.

I'm saying it never appealed to me. I didn't. As a matter of fact, I lived in, the reason I moved to my house just up the road from where I used to live for the last seven years while I was building the business is because they had torrential rain and and the roof came in and my wife now who was my fiance at the time um the roof came in and we had to rush up to the house uh uh ramon you remember that that day we had to rush up to the house we had to sweep out water from upstairs and she's like this is not it you have you have four hosts we have you have house one

and i'm like yeah but you know this is where we live this is our little kind of cabana and home of uh zen you know um you know come we'll just fix the roof. And it's not mean, my mean, my not mean. Of course. It's just that I'm prudent and I have a blueprint and it's worked for me over time. So I want to say, that's what I want to touch on. So I've heard what you're saying and I completely understand it.

And I think that's, it's been a valuable addition to the conversation. Like Randy, we we asked what do you do when you what what's the mindset shift that you go through when you get to a certain point so I think my next question for Paul respectfully go ahead it's a good PR point it's a answer, but it's not really the answer to the question I want. Randy, trust me. Randy, trust me. I don't need to trust you because I am speaking not about something that was just said.

I'm speaking about something I felt, something that's personal to me. That's why I know also that it's a sort of thing that you have to sit with and answer. And also, it is in some ways personal. I would not be surprised if Paul or anybody

doesn't necessarily want to answer this in this sort of forum. Because since I read your tweet, Krista, it has sat in my mind and I've thought about it. I'll tell a story. I don't want us to belabor the point. It's good and we'll wrap it, but I'll tell a story to wrap it. There was a day when I was, I lived in Spain for years, and I still live in Spain, and I had a car.

Well, I can say it now. I was driving a Banga, and the people who actually know me in real life know how much I like my little Banga car. Long after I could put it down, I kept a little Nissan. Think of Nissan Nissan looked like crime it doesn't participate in crime but it looks just like every other taxi out there and I remember driving home to Spanish Town and the tyre burst

and it was raining heavily and I had to come out and I was in the rain and I'm changing the tyre and I was in the rain and I'm changing the tire on this on this car in the rain and the bumper fell off because I had two pieces of blue string holding up the bumper no joke like people who know me know the car and they know the two pieces of string it looked bad and as there and it slipped and and the tire iron slip on the drop I'm in the rain wet up and I felt I sat there for and i started to laugh because that same day on the market i had made over a million dollars that day on the market and i'm sitting

there thinking why the hell are you driving this and putting yourself in this kind of problem that is the guy who grew up who his father's anthem was Lock Off The Light because of JPS. That's the guy who, no matter how much money he make, boy, I'm going to want to really push myself and go get a fancy car because but the truth is, when you get

the nicer car, I assume, when you get the nicer car, you don't have to be sitting off yourself in the same way and that time gets used for something more constructive but if you don't have that sort of mindset shift you may never know so again i know the kind of shift i'm talking about and it's a very personal thing i've never really told that story and i even even know i edited the story very differently the people who know the real version of that story,

it's a thing that you can't necessarily, it is not that easy answer. So I'm not pressuring Paul at all or anybody. No, no, Randy, Randy, before I give you, I just saw one more thing and I'll hand over to you.

I've been on a, I've been, I've been, this is recently now, probably within the last 12 months. I've driven, listen to me now, probably within the last 12 months, I've driven, listen to me now, in the last 12 months. And yes, within the last 12 months, I definitely could buy a fleet of Ferraris. But I used my 335.

I was going along. I was in a group, a little car group and everybody had Porsches and I tried to swoop my little 335, the same one I had and I was going on a drive with these guys and on the way back into Kingston

my bumper dropped off too my bumper dropped off and I took off the bumper put it back on and finish the race last or the drive last and i felt 100 percent um uh comfortably my skin why because i have a formula and it's been working for the last you know uh 25 years of my life, and I'm not going to change it. So for me, when I hear that, I'm hearing two stories that kind of are similar, but went in different directions. And I think, Randy, for the point of the thread, I think both answers kind of serve the point. So what it sounds like, what I'm getting from it is just like, Paul, you had a formula that you decided to stick to.

I think what I was trying to or potentially eventually trying to get to, if you're comfortable talking about it, was where the formula came from. Because that's really the mindset that we're talking about or the money blueprint that we're talking about. So for you, you kept it for the most part. Right. about so for you you you kept you kept it for the most part right um but i think that if we kind of shift into something else it's just kind of like for like investments so like investment properties that you may or may not have that may or may not have it's just like was so you've kept your personal life a certain type of way but your investment life has evolved more than what you'd have seen at home was there ever a time if you're willing to share and we can also i would love to if other people would want to

answer this question i know it's a sensitive topic like i said money money like making money black and white managing it spending it very emotional so it's not something that we have to talk about in this forum can be super personal but was there ever a time when even when you started to invest or started to kind of spend money on things that could grow your money not necessarily your personal life was there ever a time where you had to like you you had a voice in your head that probably said don't do this or maybe you don't need to do this and you realized that might not be my voice that's the voice of somebody else and if that never happened that could also be part of the conversation too,

that it might just not happen to everyone. Yeah, the answer to you, that's a very excellent question, Krista. The answer is yes. And I'll share that in the entrepreneur section on Pitch Deck. All right, no problem. So Randy. Yeah, man. entrepreneur section on pitch deck all right no problem so randy yeah man so i bring a totally different perspective to this thing right so when i was like about eight right i was in a living room with my people and my uncle was in a

house and you know both civil servants grew up very middle class and all of that and you know both civil servants group were middle class and all of that and you know money problems and they were talking about how they're going to deal with it and you know there was one set of guys are saying boy we have to save and we have to cut back on this and cut back on that and you know i was a kid growing up and I heard these discussions many times. I said to them, guys, you're wrong. You have to earn more money. I'll share something else with you. I have a lot of customers who started with zero and they're now

rich. The biggest mistake I see people make all the time is that we forget that we come on this earth for a very short time. And we are working so that we can enjoy life. And the mistake we make is we're always trying to de-redefine what is success. Everyone on this talk who has had some degree of success, we didn't achieve it by being careless,

We didn't achieve it by being careless, by not planning and investing and in education or the right asset or so. We all went through that. But remember, guys, you need to have, don't keep changing your goalposts because if you have all of that money and you don't have no fun, you don't enjoy it,

from my perspective, I think you're really robbing yourself of a rich life. And a lot of these very popular people who come on these TV shows, and I'm not talking about anybody in Jamaica. I mean, Paul is entitled to his version of his life and his frugality, and I don't have a problem with that. But a lot of them are fake.

They're telling you how they are living in this one house forever. But I have friends who have been on sport fish boats with these people that cost millions of dollars. And I've seen some on the private jets that they jump in and fly around the world in. So life is not just about being successful if you don't enjoy it. The American dream is all about that. People don't, all the migrants, the millions of migrants trying to get into America every year.

They're not going there just because they want to live in a small two-bedroom house. They want to hit it big and they want to enjoy life. I leave that with you guys. That's my perspective on it. Solid perspective, Chris.

The final story I'll leave you with. When I was a kid, my used to watch this show called Magnum P.I. Magnum P.I. And the guy used to drive a Ferrari. And I used to look on that show and I used to say to myself as I grew up, you know, that's my

dream car. It was so expensive, I thought I would never, ever, ever be able to afford it. So one day, a friend of mine in Florida invited me to his house, and he unveiled his brand-new Ferrari, and he took me for a drive in it. Well, it was the most amazing experience. I sat in that car

and I realized I wasn't as poor as I thought I was. And that's the end of the story. I won't tell you the rest. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, you know, Sir Barry, thank you 100% for that

because, again, I like the reality of that story and I can tell you that's somebody coming from poorer. When did all of this work for Brooke? The life there for Brough, you're right. Worse,

now people are dropped dead all the time. The life there for Brff, you're right. Worse, now people are drop dead all the time. The life there for Braff. But the reality is somebody needs to teach how the Braff thing go when you're just making it. So thank you for that sort of honesty. Because that's the truth. And that was actually part of my thing for the car conversation when I was

fixing that car in the road. Yeah, man, but the Braff never feel too responsive. But it still has to be because you can't go crazy right that's why a lot of winners end up broke well thank you very very much for that sir and also for that paul um the for me i speak i think i speak for the people who are making it making a little more than they thought, and they're realizing that, yo, I need some sort of guidance here. And I don't have the answers either because I'm on the same road as everybody else. I come from a poor background, and I'm making it.

I'm in a really normal make it. But I'm making it, and I don't know how far is too far. I don't know what the best steps are, and I guess we'll all figure it out together. So thank both of you for that for those points I thank you very much Christopher for bringing us back to the original point yeah but thank you for sharing that and talking about that like I what I had the same sentiments when I created the thread but it was kind of just like something that was on my mind but you really hit the nail on the head it It's just like, you spoke about how people are asking about managing it.

And you're just like, who told you guys I know how to manage it. And it's not to say you're not managing your money. Well, it's just, you don't know if you are. And that is a difficult place to be in. Like,

and I can also say I'm the same boat. It's just like, I think this budget works, but guess what? I won't know until 30 years from now if I have something to show for it or not. Then I will tell you about the conversations that I have. I wouldn't have done it. And Randy and Danai, I will get into it.

You have my word, I will. All right. And Christian, you have my word. Well, you're right. We'll have a face-to-face conversation that the public can view. Yeah, man. I will talk to you in some real way

because I know you're a real youth. Like you say, you went to Arden. Good people alone go to Arden. If you go to Arden and you're good, by the time you leave, you learn to be good. Yeah, but I think it's... Right. No bother with it. No bother's it's no bother with it no bother with it

no no I'm an honorary so I'll take that one as well oh and Danai I hear you have some questions you want to ask me so I'm looking forward to our Simon come on invite the guys to come on

and ask me the tough questions. And hopefully we can impart to the people who really want a beacon of hope in how they can make it and manage it and how atypical Jamaica is versus, and that's another thing, the environment we're in. We all on this call want to see each other do well. And as you say, Randy and Braff,

and Braffing is encouraged in a lot of cultures. Jamaica is a very different place, and I'm going to be telling the story on that, Randy. I understand that too. I understand that also, which is one of the things that you hear me talk about all the time. Here's what I know. I grew up and the only people that I see Braffin

is the people in the less legal part of life and the entertainers and the politicians, some politicians, right? I want to allow a class of people to show a little bit of the Braff lifestyle and somebody young coming up can see it and say, yo, I don't have a bus going to do that. I don't have to join politics if I don't want to do it. And I don't have to be an entertainer to do it.

I can work hard. That's like my favorite, out of all of the US billionaires, my favorite one is Robert Smith because he's not in sports. He's not an entertainer. He's just a nerd who knows the markets and knows tech and works hard

for it. That's something that anybody can look up to. We can't bond tall like MJ. All of us can't be bounty or beany. And those of us who are smart are not going to touch the life of crime. So I want to show a full life to people, to the young me out there who can see, yeah, see Paul and him blue 335 eye

and him never bust no gun for do it. Him work hard and him get it the right way. See Barry and the sports yacht and him never busts a gun to do it. He works hard and he gets it the right way. Sibberi and the sports, and he never busts a gun. I hope he never busts a gun for it. It's a joke, of course. But yeah. By the way, Randy, before I go,

on behalf of myself and the Connison team, I just want to say my money is a big, big, big, big, big, big, big, big thing. That's number one. Number two, we want to say congratulations to Chris. He just raised, I think, five or so billion, and he's upsizing.

billion and he's upsizing um uh uh you know if if you guys can tweet and and and um just you know encourage people to look at it the bank's paying uh crazy rubbish interest rates um what what chris is offering is is um my understanding is is is is is is uh you know gives out a great return for the average man. You know, I don't know if there's ever been a kind of structure like this. So, you know, I think they've upsized. So, congratulations, Chris, on that. And, of course, you know, it wasn't Barita that did the of course, you know, it wasn't,

Barita didn't do the first races, you know, but it learned a lesson and it went ahead and did it. And it's not, we did the first APO, but we do it. So thanks for showing us another way, right? That's what makes you know.

Can you imagine when you start with the renounce of a right issue then the right way brother Oh my god My money had jumped already Yo Randy Randy the train the gun No no no

We'll talk Congratulations guys Yeah man thank you very much for that And listen The platform is always open for everybody Anybody needs to just come on and ask what they want. I do see, and thank you again very, very much, Krista. Simon, I see you're on, and I also have Dr. Phil on. Phil, I don't want you to wait forever. So if there's a point around what we're going to talk to Simon around, you can jump in. point I run up with me and talk to Simon around, you can jump in. But Simon, I know you had some tweets out there. I see people

send me the tweets. I am very, very, very happy to touch it back since we're touching back a little bit of the market from our non-billionaire level. Right, Simon? Yeah, I was just about to say I look like I'm the brookest person on this call. On this... No, I know. I'm working on it,

man. I'm working on it. You come to grow, you can't work on that, man, I'm working on it. You come to grow, you can't work on that man. I hear you, I hear you man, I hear you. Let me hear what you're question was Simon. Simon, Ramon, Ramon on you know. So if you say brock, your partner hear you. Your IT boss hear you. You know what I'm gonna want Christy for you boss man Simon you see that the first brick talk you come on for the year and you get a raise already

my god I hear you I hear you man Randy sorry I didn't want to change the the tone of the conversation it's been going on

so well no man let's see we can segue so let's but sorry sorry Simon Paul

Paul we don't talk about tiefing people again, right? Slavery has been abolished. The talent goes to where it's best rewarded. Alright. Simon, just make sure that

Roman and the team is rewarding you as best as possible, right? I'm positive of it. Positive of it, CEO. Simon, happy new year, my brother. You are welcome, Simon. You are welcome, Simon.

You are on the big up. But it's been a good conversation so far, for a little while. But I mean, I think... Can you hearing me? We are hearing you. Sorry about that, Simon.

Yes, Simon, you were saying? Yeah, sorry. I was saying probably that part of the conversation has been a bit tedious. I mean, Randy, we know that we've had this, not just me and you personally, but generally in this space, this conversation

a bit back and forth about mechanisms. I mean, it's not necessarily that. I just had a few questions. I think I pointed them out here. So, it's actually somebody messaged me and said

for telling that kpu kp reed has been doing buybacks before the apo um that's a that's a point there and also i asked a question pause one sec pause one sec because i don't want you it's not that we're throwing it all out yes kp reed has been doing buybacks from before is that a new thing in fact they spoke about doing it after they did a right issue. The buyback is a great mechanism. You're not out here hearing me preach for the buybacks or anything else like that, right? I am speaking about the method of raising capital

that ignores the effect of the share price. The one that I forgot, thanks to, I saw your tweet, so thanks to your tweet, DTL, I did forget forget that and i think you're saying that there are factors around detail that um cause the share price to not go extraneous factors other than the apo well well let me let me let me let me bring it back into the um into the forest and ask and it's something that i've asked in a big group. So I've heard you speak about the APO effect, and I mean,

based on what you've presented and the information that you have supported that with, I can't see you talking foolishness, right? But I guess what I'm trying to understand a bit better is that the APO share prices have been going down, a majority of them outside of Barita, of course, since each of them have been done. What percentage of that or what other factors have impacted those share prices actually falling?

So I always hear the rhetoric that J&B share price has fallen from 30th because of the APO, from the DDA PO. But I mean, there are a few other factors influencing J-Mamby's price. I don't often hear about that. Detail is another one. Pause, pause, pause. Such as what? You're coming with the Trini shareholders thing?

Well, the Trini shareholders thing is actually a real point no it is a point but talk to me have you ever tried looking to the numbers of that yeah i have i can't share that here but but but jmb jmb is traded on both exchanges why would then the jb trinidad price not reflect the level of volume movement that the the j the jamaican one reflects and hold on i'm not even but let us let us give it to it let's say that okay the trini shareholder price shareholder point is what has helped influence jmmb to remain at or below its apo level for for the last four years, or since the APO. What's the other one? BTL? Hold on, hold on. Let's go back to my question, Randy.

So my question is that I've often heard about the APO effect and its impact on the share prices. And I guess I want to understand from your perspective, I mean, you've been, well, along with Danai, probably two of the most vocal people on this, what other factors may have influenced the prices to move negatively over the years and how much of that share price movement would you guys say, based on your research, has been attributed to the APO effect? I would say everything impacts the share price.

The company, the company, people, if the APO didn't happen. I know that everything impacts the share price. I guess what I'm asking for you is to help me to attribute. for you is to help me attribute... So, what you guys have been saying is that the APU effect has been

the reason that caused some of these prices to stagnate over the years. So, I'm asking to what effect and what other factors may have influenced that and to what effect? If I can, pick a stock and i will use it as my example it's a very open question but yeah pick pick one don't pick marita or you can if you want but i'd pick any other others i mean uh well i have any on top of my mind but i mean you can go with there yeah go

ahead go with go with german go with german even you know i should choose their money i'm conflicted i'm conflicted there um so so i will i will i will choose their man but remain quiet and now you guys know no no no life simon come on simon we can have a conversation if you're quiet. We can have a conversation if you're quiet. Derryman, did their APO win? 2020. Yeah, top of 2020. Simon, you can't reflect it on Derryman.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. I don't want to use something else, to be honest. It's very, very complicated. Let's keep it implied. Let's not have somebody else increase your pay. You can use JMNB. That's the most popular one. Alright, so nobody cares

about JMNB. The most popular one I've heard. Yeah. Damn, when did JMNB do their APO? 2019. Anybody remember what their APO price was? 38.75. 38.75, right? All right.

And so just establishing what that actually looks like. 2019, $38.75 is when they did it. And late 2019, early 2020 is when people got those units, right? At the time when the APO was spoken about, people were excited about them buying into Sajikor Financial. We're looking at a share price of $50, $50.30 at August 26, 2019. Now, generally, share price started to dip because people were excited also about TransJamaica,

which had a heavy marketing campaign going on in late 2019 if you remember i remember yeah man early 2020 also people got the units people still excited about the surgical thing you know but march 2020 covid hit right that if you look on every single stock on the market then then you can see what I call the COVID dip. It is very, very clear. The people watching on YouTube can see it on my screen. It's a very, very clear dip in March for every stock on the market. JMB was included in that.

In fact, they fell all the way down in July. The end of July, July 27, 2019. 2020, they're now at $3,162. All the way to October, I'll go to the end of September, they're now at $2,950. They're below the APO price. Now, pause for a second. What are the two most popular ways to make money from stocks?

I know you know, Sam. I just carry everybody through. Two most popular ways to make money from stocks. Price increase dividends, right? Yeah. Yeah. Cool. Now, the dividends, us shareholders have no control over that.

That's the company's work and you get a piece of the profits paid out as the board decides, right? The other one, however, is cap gains. And cap gains are determined completely by us investors in the market. Would you agree with that? Yeah, it's a trade by people, so yeah.

Yeah. And so for me, cap gains, if I'm going to profit from cap gains, it means I have to sell the thing for higher than I bought it for, right? Go on. Yeah, go on. Now, JM&B brought on, we'll say, thousands of new shareholders. If not hundreds, we'll say, I'll say thousands, and if you want, we can say hundreds.

But they brought on a significantly large amount of new shareholders at a share price of $38.75 when they did their APO. at a share price of 38.75 when they did their APO. At the end of September, we're looking at a share price of 29.50. That means that everybody who bought in the APO, assuming that that was the only time that they'd bought, they are now at a loss position. If I bought as a regular member of the public at 38.75,

profit for me begins at 38.75. Profit for me begins at 38.76. Now, if I'm at a loss, 29.32 at the end of September and I don't know much about stocks, I am worried, but I probably don't want to sell at a loss, right? We get to early December, we have our share price

of 34.16, not quite 38.75, but close close maybe some people are in it for a long time maybe they're um they're they're thinking you know what i'm okay taking this a little bit of a loss so they're coming out what you'll notice with jim and the share price every single time over the past few years is that every time it gets close to 38 75 you get a lot of people selling and so because a lot of people are selling the share price decreases because of course you have a yeah man you're not hearing me well i think i'm move word from night man but it's not hearing you hearing me that i i hear you simon i hear you I hear you, too. I hear you, too. Simon?

Simon? Simon. Yeah, he needs to jump off and come back on. Okay. Let me text him. Continue around. Yeah, man. So at $38.75, I'm looking for that price to get back to my profit.

Bear in mind, we are now, at this point, the end of June. to get back to my profit. Bear in mind, we are now at this point, the end of June. So we are coming close to, I'd say a little over the half year mark in 2021. Well, no, it happened in 2019. So at this point, I am more than a year out waiting to get back to profit.

And I can't see yet. Get to the end of 2021, we are looking at a share price of $38.72. Of course, a bunch of people near the end of the year trying to come out near that price, it's going to keep falling, right? Raleigh? Yeah, man, we're hearing you.

Oh, all right, I hear you. I hear you now, Raleigh. Okay, perfect. Perfect, yeah, man. So what I've been showing is that simply because the share price has been below the api price and we're now looking at a period of one year year and a half no two years you have a lot of retail investors who either frustrated and coming

out meaning they're selling for less than 38.75 or every time it gets close to that, they're selling at that. That means that there are people who are coming in below 38.75 or at 38.75. For example, March 29, 2021, the share price is $32.60. If I'm frustrated and I sell my APO shares at that price, that means that somebody now has a profit point of 32.61. You see how the profit point for a large amount of people keeps going lower and lower and lower,

aka the APO effect. The only time since then that the share price has passed the APO price is March 2022, when people chose to misread the GMNB notice about the buyback. They expected it to be what they wanted to see, they'd never see at the start of April, and immediately the share price started to fall again. Here we are now, January 2023,

JMNB share price is $32.67. It means that every single person who today, well, $32.93 today, every single person who bought, well, 3293 today, every single person who bought at 3293, their profit starts at 3294. What you have is a floor that keeps going lower and lower as a result of a massive amount of people coming in at 3875. Pick any of the APOs and that happened. In fact, the only reason it didn't happen with Barita is because, as you'll see, you can tell the dates when Barita did their APO and you can see the volumes right after, literally the very next day, you can see the volumes in Barita's queue where heavy buys were done, either from, I guess, institutional buyers or maybe from the the ESOP which was publicly put out there nothing wrong with that but it says to me at least it said to me from my external perspective

that it would appear that somebody at Barita understands the market and understands this effect on people so they understand the need for heavy buys to be done right after APOs happen, right? It's the only one that has done it. So every other company has that as the major effect. No big player can outdo the total effect of the market. It don't matter how much money they have, it would mean that they'd have to buy and buy higher every single day in order to outdo the market. Don't stop buying.

Yeah, that's a lot of money. So the reality of the APO effect is that because you've brought in the public external shareholders, quote-unquote, at a price that is much lower than everybody else's, than the current market price,

you have now created a floor, a price floor. And if there's no reason for the mass of people that are just in law to get their to buy at a higher share price, then what you'll have is a share price falling. I'll go one step further.

The fact that the APO tends to happen at a time where, let's say the share price is $50 and the APO is $30, it means that the very next day, my $30 shares are worth $50. If I bought just the- $50 shares are worth $30.

No, no, no. The shares that I bought for $30 are now worth $50 the very next day because if the $50 shares being APO'd for $30, when I buy in at $30 very next day they're worth 50 I'm assuming that the same price right which is gonna encourage me to sell all I'm saying is that if there's no it's not a way around um then I right but go on then I is right but there's one more thing there's one more thing. There's one more thing you left out. And if that were the case, if APO prices were below right-of-seer prices, yes. No, no, not right-of-seer prices.

Right-of-seer prices. Right-of-seer wasn't in that conversation. Right, right. So when the APOs are announced at $30 and the market is trading at $50, if I sell my shares, I can now take my $50 worth of shares and go buy back in the APO at cheaper.

I'm getting more units. Immediately, it's a sell-off. Randy, what I'd say, which is a big point, and to your point, you have ways of doing it wrong, but you also have ways of doing it wrong but you also have ways of doing it right when the apo price is above what your rights is your prices uh were then you advantage

um your your your rights as your people yeah but that's that's a very Barita specific. I think that's a very Barita specific. Yeah, man. Yeah, man. Yeah, man. It's not we. It's not we. You only can talk about we, Randy. Yeah, but what you need to understand enough, Paul, is that I don't have an issue

with Barita. I have an issue with APO. Hold on, Randy. Randy. That's why you need to send them to the Barita school. Well, let's grow. Yes, sir, Randy. That's why you need to send them to the Marita school. Well, it's a grower. Yes, sir.

Randy. Big up grower. Randy, so I heard almost everything you said, and I appreciate the trading history, but I don't think you answered the question. So what you just explained to me is kind of what you've explained to me a few times before, which I completely understand.

But my question wasn't to break down the ceilings and floors that have happened over the past three years with JM&B. That's true. Your question was, are there any other factors? Yes. So Danai said the right thing. Everything affects the price, right? So, what I'm asking is how much of the negative price performance in JMNB here was impacted by all of what you just said over the past 10 minutes in your estimate so you're asking okay what person what what i think that's anti-asking right what what portion of the the total movement would you attribute to that one

thing yeah so so so jay mmb has moved from well um randy randy did well it started in the history when randy said when the sfc thing was announced it was went up to 50 right um the apos are 30 38 um point something so let's use a 38 point something over the past three years just move from 38 point something to now you said 32 point something right and and i think you just said what so i'm asking what percentage of that negative price performance over a three-year period would you attribute to the APO effect? I would say most. In terms of an actual proper number, I can't say that's a real number. Yeah, that's a hard thing to say. That's not a real number. That's not a number you can read a thing on.

I would say more than 50%. I'd say more than 50% personally. I think it colors too much other things. Even when JMB has good things going on that would, before this timeline, you'd expect an increase in price, it does not really happen until the left-lead, I think. Or it goes down instead. If you see certain events happen and JMB weather the storm in the wrong way.

Yeah, so thanks for that, Randy. So what you're saying and Danai, you're saying that there are other factors that make up, in some cases, almost 50% of the price performance. No, no, no, absolutely not.

That's not what I'm saying. Well, you said 50% or more is attributed. He's giving the mathematical most I can't give you a number, I can't say if it's 70 60, 50, I just know it's most in my head, I can't really give you a number

that's a calculation I don't know I would say, if you want me to hazard a number, I would say close to 90% but I'm saying more than 50% in the probability sense where if something is over 50 percent then the thing that is over 50 percent is most likely to happen but i'm comfortable going up to 90 percent 90 95 percent meaning without the apo if everything else happened

without the apo the share price would fly in, if we had replaced the APO with a renown separate rights issue, the share price would have gone, in my view, close to, if not over 200. You know what my proof of that is? You know what my proof of that is? In 2019, there was this company called Barita that did a rights issue. So, hold on. Randy, so I hear you. I hear you, I hear you, I hear you.

So, and this is probably the data part I'm kicking in because we can actually do this analysis, but I'm just fleshing it out here. So you're saying that about 90% of GMB's underperformance over the past three years has been attributed to the APO effect. And so you can attribute that performance. No, that's actually not significant in the question that I'm going to next. It's not really, really that significant.

So how much of the underperformance? that I'm going to next. It's not really, really that significant. So, how much of the underperformance, and then you said, which is an important point, you said that if they didn't do the APO, the price would have probably skyrocketed. Right?

I am willing to bet money on it because I was betting money on it. How much money? Sorry, sorry, sorry. let's not go there so let's not go there so so so what about the other stocks what about the other stocks over the past three years and sorry i don't have my money in front of me anyways big up my money very very very good platform yeah man big man. Big up my money, jay.com. Big up to the team. We have a team and the team works hard. So big up to the team. Yeah, man. Big up.

Everybody, all the stakeholders. Anyway, we're getting off the point. So what about if I were to have my money in front of me, sorry I don't, and I were to pull up share prices over the past three years, let's go to financial companies now.

And if I found financial companies that underperformed over the past three years, but have provided good news and fundamentals and all of that, and those companies without an APO underperformed, then what was attributed to their underperformance? It's a different reason. That's the question before it doesn't answer the question you have here. I guess what I mean is they can have two different completely uncorrelated reasons for underperformance.

APO is not the only reason we would say a company underperforms. So another company can underperform for its own completely separate reasons than the others. Well, tell me who these companies are. Thank you. Thank you. But the question here then is, which ones here do you say underperform? Tell me who these companies are. Yeah.

No, guys, remember, Mr. Mena have the money in front of me. But Simon, this is not cricket. So I don't know why you're bullying them kind of googly's here. That is a serious googly. What? Go Glee Boy, Chris In my young years

Sorry, I'm not a cricket man I'm a FIFA man Ask Randy, I usually beat him Sometimes Yeah, Kirk is more the cricket man But Randy My point, which I've highlighted to you before In our big group Yeah, Kirk is more the cricket man. But Randy, my point, which I've highlighted to you before in our big group, is the challenge that I have is when you say no to APO,

and then in the disclaimer, you say, of course, Marita did it very well, so this don't apply to Marita. I don't say that either. I say, let me be very clear, I say, of course, Marita did it very well, so this does not apply to Marita. I don't say that either. I say, let me be very clear. I say, once I hear APO, I sell. Once I hear a right issue, I buy. I say, when it comes to APOs, the only one that has been done differently from the pack has been Marita's. And even theirs involve a hell load of spend in order to avoid the APO effect. And then I show it to people.

So, Randy, you've never said say no to APOs? You want me to say no? Say no to APOs. Yeah, I wasn't pushing it to say it, but no, but you say never say it that way, dear. Yeah, because I want you to understand that it's not a it's not a clip you want the full context of the thing for a retail investor for a retail investor an apo is destructive to your investments and that has been proved by literally every single one with the exception of barita who has done a hell of a lot of moves in order to preserve the price paul made a critical point in his statement. And I think instead of putting this on the mechanism,

and APO is just a mechanism. How can I deny the mechanism when it is the entire system of the mechanism? You should probably place more weight on the people managing the mechanism. Why? more weight on the people managing the mechanism. You mean the people managing the mechanism or the final mechanism that is less tedious? There's not 10 Paul Simpsons in the market. But there's only

one Paul Simpson in the market. That's why I can't read that sales pitch. I can't depend on the people who have shown that they are not either aware or don't care about the effect on retail investors to suddenly act like they do. So I'm not going to say look on the team. I'm going to say say no to APOs, but read the prospectus, see what's in there. And if somehow, if I read an APO, I gave this out as a freebie, I'll give this one out again.

If JM&B had done an APO and said that within two years we are going to do a reverse stock split, I would probably think, okay, there might be an opportunity to buy this. But you're asking me to ignore the very clear evidence of literally every single APO because of the team? I can't trust that somebody in another company is going to do what Paul Simpson has done. I don't know that people in other companies are aware of even what has been done or able to do it themselves.

If they were, they would do it. I think... Paul Simpson, hold on. And even Paul Simpson and team did not start off with an APO. They went right to show first twice. Well, Randy. Randy. I think the evidence,

one of the things I would say, Simon, is that Randy is dealing with an audience, a lot of whom are not stock market professionals. And so he has to develop some, you know, easy phrases for them to go by. Now, when you look at this whole thing about APO versus rights, it's very complicated. And when you start to break them down case by case, you know, there's a lot, a lot of things going on. So, for example, when you're doing the APO and it's at a higher price than your rights,

you're bringing in strategic people and your float is as close to zero. There's no company the size of Barita that has a float that is so low because you're bringing a strategic investor. He's not coming in to sell. So you're not getting any float from him. And a lot of investors in Barita

are looking for the long term. So they know, you you know a lot of people they're going ipo and then full up them them cap them cap deck with flippers that's not the case with paul paul's people are they are sticking with him so there's no there's no liquidity there and then he delivers in a balance sheet. So you get financial performance. You have very low liquidity. And so it's a great recipe. You look on the other hand with like a JBMB,

which is one of the cheapest financial stocks on the market right now. And you start out at 50. You announce a thing below where you were. So immediately, you have people saying, Hey, I'm going to sell at 50 so I can buy back at 30. Right, Chris. Right, right. Why wouldn't you? Why wouldn't you?

Think about it. You would. No. Well, I mean, I certainly did that. And I mean, I was like a bastard. Come on, there you go. But Chris, Chris.

You would. You would. Chris, Chris. Chris, Chris, Chris. Hold on. I'm going to cut your point because I think these guys tiptoeing around something, right? Nobody wants to be to build a cat and say, well, what about the effect of Chris Berry on DTL? No, well, I don't really want to discuss this in an open forum like this right now.

No, Randy, Randy, come on. You see me on the thing And Chris on the thing You know, Randy I couldn't hear anything before a while ago And I just This is when the audio started No, no, the truth is The truth is

The truth is, the only thing I will say about DTL And Paul might not Admit this now, but sometime within the next, before he ends his career as a great

investor, which so far he's one of the best in Jamaica, he will admit that he overpaid for that stock. That's the only thing I'm willing to say about that. I'm going to give you that. I'm going to be honest about that.

In about, I would, sorry, I'm going to be open. Because I'm always, the guys who work with me, who is on, they know I'm always honest. As honest as I can be. So Chris, I'll answer the question in about three three months no no I'm going to I'll say it another way you were more optimistic about the prospects that had actually turned out right but that's all I want to answer your body if I did own 19.99%, if we did own 19.9%,

I would not give you the answer. But I'll give you the answer in about a month to three months. Okay. Well, all I say to you is that if in three months, you know, the problem is rectified, I'll be the happiest man

in the world. No, no, no, no, no, no. That's not what I... Me too, me too. But what I'm saying is... Yeah, because you're in for more than me. Trust me, trust me. Trust me, no.

But what I'm saying, Chris, is that reality, I suspect, I'll take it on in about three months. I'll look into it. But that's not something we should do. Give me a quarter before I can be publicly open about it. be publicly open about it well boy after two years i will be glad if this is resolved in a quarter that's all i can say what what what i am what i'm fixed about is that i never buy svl at um when it was in the teens well even though it's a boy teens even though I was

warned you were warned by me too you were you were you did you did and I'm admitting it you know I don't have no qualms about admitting it that that was

that was one of my you know that opportunity to cost was wicked That hurt Well let me tell you something If you come to grow If you can make the time You will learn how to pick a stock like

No You know Randy and Danai Randy and Danai, Randy and Danai, I'm going to take them up on the offer. Anyway, I have a joke for you guys. I don't power me like this one. Tell me.

Over the years, since Barita was listed, I used to make a lot of money on Barita because Barita is one of the most volatile stocks. It used to drop down to nothing, and I'd buy like three, four million, and then it would like triple, and I would sell it. But I heard that this fellow who had offered a job a long time ago,

a guy named Paul Simpson, you know, he took over this company. job a long time ago. A guy named Paul Simpson. He took over this company. But I didn't find out until after I took profits the last time. Had I known, Paul was taking over the company and I'd kept the shares. You know how much money I threw away by selling early? And Chris, I was sitting on about 5 million burrito and Chris I was sitting on about 5 million

burrito I think I paid like $1.50 for them Jesus mercy that hurt my belly oh my god well gentlemen here's what I can suggest for both of you

both of those stocks you mentioned are available in the market Monday morning. Feel free to write your rungs and buy both of them. The market will be happy. No, my God. First of all, let me tell you, my love SVL, and there's something I don't have enough to hide because we chat and cuss about it every time, you know, investment management meetings at the cornerstone level.

I'm talking at the cornerstone level now. She's a cornerstone level now she's a private company i'm not listed someone can talk free um with that that that i think i you know so so i hope it i hope it come off a little bit knock on wood so we can buy some right um that That was one of my big mistakes. You did warn me, Chris. I think it was $13. No, it was $9 at the time or $10. It has fallen to probably about $9 or $10. And I couldn't have gotten it for like $13.

My God. Sure. Yeah, well. Definitely. My God. Sure. Yeah, well. You know, definitely, I would have to revisit not owning a boat right now. I'd probably buy one of Chris's own, right? Because I would have made a lot of money. Well, my advice to you, Paul, is that since you don't like boats, if I were you, I'll try to find another tree series

biver, one of them old one like what you like and buy another one of those because you're not going to enjoy a boat no what I need to do is talk to Randy and look on the charts and hopefully

SVL pull back a little bit so we can buy some. That's the first thing, you know. Hope is not a strategy. We teach real things like how we talk real things. There's not a hope to these things. If you look at the future of the company, you look at the reality of the company

and the reality of its market presence, and you step forward. And that brings us back, and I'm going to cap the APO point there. It's the last point there why I'm against APOs, because an APO strengthens the company's balance sheet, but weakens its share presence in the market. And it kind of abrogates, I won't say it abrogates shareholder rights, because it is done properly, but it hurts hurts and it's clear that it hurts

and the people who don't have the 3 Series or the Jets or the Yachts, they're not in it all the time for the 10 year journey sometimes they're in it for the 10 month journey and APOs is destructive to them, that's the simple truth so I want, if I could have it my way

I would have everybody understand the strength of a renounceable rights issue and how it can give you the same amount of capital. It can still allocate to specific parties, but it can also be beneficial to the small man or woman who is investing the middle dollar.

We're going to come with some technical points to give you a different perspective on that one. I am always hoping to be improved. You can cap the argument on that one. No problem. No problem. All right.

Simon, you cool with that capping also? If you guys hear Simon Simon we'll get a better internet service provider we won't be in Simon at all alright so we have Sir Phil and the man from Japan waiting

for a little while so Sir Phil Mark waiting so I'll bring Mark in but Sir Phil, what's up? Also, Mark waiting, so I'll bring Mark in. But Sir Phil, let me hear what your point is. Just a quick point, man. I do want to... I'm begging

not to quite cap that APO argument, APO right issue argument quite yet. The truth is, I'll coin this, man. We don't want to go through. It won't be a long point, man. We don't want to go through. It won't be a long point, man. It won't be a long point. Let me hear it, sir.

Go through. Big up, sir. Big up, sir. Big up, sir. Chris, big up, Simon, and everybody on the call. But I just want to make a quick point. Paul had made a point earlier about, you know, Paul had made a point earlier about APOs bringing in money and using that money to invest.

You're seeking alpha. At all points, you're seeking alpha. It's a very simplistic view, but JMMB, before they did their APO, in that year year they had a net profit of $3.8 million. They did an APO and they issued like 600 million shares on top of the $1.3 billion that they had. So that would be about a third, right? About a half, right? Three years later... Which company is this, right? About a half, right? Three years later... Which company is this, Phil? Sorry? JMNB.

JMNB, okay. Three years later, they have bought that huge stake in Sajikor Financial. Their net profit is almost four times that amount. Right? If we talk about Seeking seeking alpha they have sought alpha and they are founded but not on the market but the share price has not moved and i know it's a very simplistic view but you know we talk about buying stocks for the long term you could argue that that

is medium term but the point is when you do a ap or when you do any raise you you you do a raise in order to improve the business of the company um yes you have some dilution whether it's a ap or a rights issue you have some dilution but you expect that what the business that you are um improving with the money that you've gotten is going to outdo that dilution. But because of the way that you do the raise, as you guys have outlined,

it severely affects the share price, despite the fact that, you know, despite the amount of profit that you have compounded over, you know, because of the raise. So I just wanted to make that point. I mean, it's that you have compounded over, you know, because of the because of the race.

So I just wanted to make that point. I mean, it's clear. GMMB is a clear example of it. And the other side, I mean, proven has proven, I don't know how much things proven by since, you know, since FEP do the APO and

not. Yeah, so I don't Since I've done APO and nothing. They were weird. Yeah, so I don't think that it's... So I just want to put out a challenge to Paul and all the investment bankers. When the technical guys give you reasons to do an APO, just ask them, why can't we do that? Whichever reason

they give you, just ask them why we can't do a renounce of the rights issue. And see if you can get a good answer. I'm begging. I will do this. Many years ago, I said no more free Randy. begging I will do this many years ago

I said no more free Randy but I will for the future of the market for free play the consultant role in the small way that I can and show how every single thing that you want from an APO

can be found in a renounce to the right issue. Just to kill that thing, because it can kill the market. Dilutive secondary offers are dangerous around the world. I don't care if we want to call them APOs in Jamaica. A dilutive secondary offer can kill a market, especially a young market like ours that's young in air quotes, but really just coming into its own. You do not want lower financially literate people who are expecting something to be constantly

disappointed. That is a dangerous thing. I understand from a business perspective why APOs could be done, but the business perspective is not the majority of the people in the market. I think in this I'm speaking for the majority of the people in the market. The business perspective. Thank you for that. Sir Barry actually added to the point in that he pointed out that

Barita brought on investors that did not add to the float. And so, yes, that works. That works. That does not work against the share price.

That's a point against APOs. That is a point against APOs. Yeah, man. That is a point against APOs. Yeah. If the new party coming in is not going to release shares across the market, meaning actually sell to the open market,

then the dilutive secondary offer can work. It is that element of bringing in a lot of people at a lower price without any controls on them, which you can't control retail investors that way. That is the dangerous thing about it. It is that element that makes it bad.

We have even a microcosm of the whole thing with the iCreate. With the iCreate, I was going to say that, exactly. It would appear that larger shareholders who got in privately are dumping their I was going to say that exactly it would appear that like larger shareholders who got in privately are dumping their shares

and you see the effect on the share price in a small way it might cause him a bigger effect but at the end of the day we'll leave it for that conversation that Paul and Tini have promised us alright thank you very much for that Sophie yeah man I'm excited

to put my gloves in the ring with you, Randy. All right, bossy. No problem. Sir Piggles, the man from Japan. Yes, yes, yes. About three home away still, but big up to all the members of the space here. Simon, Chris Berry, Paul Simpson. Paul Simpson went to a good school, you know. So, you know, you go.

It was a quick story. That's great. Yes, thank. Great. I was studying at UWE Library, and Paul Simpson was sitting across from me at this. It was like 3 o'clock in the morning, and I was studying for a physics exam.

Now, I forget it. I fell asleep. I started to snore. Then somebody come to me and say, Sir, you're snoring and disturbing the whole library. Then Paul Simpson started to snore then somebody comes up me say um sir you're throwing a disturbing the whole library then paul's lips and started to laugh i said yo you're giving me a study for our next album and all i'm a richard i'm a real tip um i think he was doing for m27 exam elmo um elmo finance over pinaplaid

played you're telling the things but the question you asked Krista had asked and you Randy it's in my DNA right so now at 118 I just get started ask Simon

and Barry from long time isn isn't it? So just pick up. I'm really proud of you. Then pick up Randy and Paul. And I'll run up to you, isn't it? Out. Yeah, do okay, brother.

Pick up. So pickers now are only the usual line. I think Paul would agree with you on that one, you know. Pesco, Pesco, Pesco. Come on, guys. Pesco. Pesco, Pesco, Pesco. Come on, Pesco, Pesco. Pesco, indeed. Next up, we have Marlon Campbell.

C. Campbell has been waiting forever. And Arville Reeves. Marlon? All right, Marlon gone. Arville, what's up? Marlon, tell everyone. Yeah, Marlon gone. Arvil, what's up? Marlon, I'm tired of you now, man. Yeah, man. Arvil?

Arvil? Arvil, we're not hearing you either, you know. So I can just go through kind of late. So I'm just going to go through the speakers. And if you fix that, Arvil, you can send back requests and we can talk. All right. Marlon, you can send back a request so we can talk. All right. Marlon, you can hear us again? Still not there.

All right. Next up, we have Mark Gill. Happy New Year, Mark. Happy New Year. Yeah, man. Big up, Randy. Big up tonight. Big up, Paul, Simon, Chris.

You guys are too consistent. I can't keep up with you guys every Friday night. When I get that chance, I realize things are spicy tonight. All the tweets and the timeline are on fire.

I walk on. I'm coming here and one bag of bangarangs, one bag of Ardenite and all these things. Yeah, I just wanted to ask

you a question, Randy, and then I, about the, Randy, I caught you, the APO effect explanation,

right? And I guess the one question I would ask you, I have a different hypothesis about, you know, why APOs, why companies that have done APOs

you know have not performed well but what I wanted to ask you is let us say that we had a hypothetical let's hear it so let me just ask a question first and then I think that will lead you to you know what my hypothesis is so let us say that there's a hypothetical company

and we could use a real company but I'm not going to because I'm conflicted, you are conflicted, Barry is conflicted, and so on. So let's just use a hypothetical company. It's a small company that raises the minimum on the junior market, $50 million in an IPO. It's performing really well, knocking financials out of the park and, you know,

quarter after quarter it's performing really well and then it decides it wants to raise some more money and then it wants to do another IPO. He wants to do another

fundraising and they choose to do an IPO and they choose to do a $50 million IPO, right? Now, given that

that is the case and let us say again, this hypothetical company is in our... Yes, it's listed on the junior market, so they raised the minimum for the junior market. Yeah, man. So, again, it's a small company, right? And so, because they're small, they couldn't raise the max, so they decided to raise the minimum. So, they decided to raise the $50 million, which is the lower end of the range, right?

Then, you know, they took that equity capital, they invested in the business, and they grew. And as a result of that, the fundamental performance of the company improved significantly. You know, let's say profits doubled or tripled over the following 24 months. And then the stock price, you know, rose accordingly, right? So given that that is the scenario, and then the stock price rose accordingly. So given that that is the scenario, and then they decide, okay, we've proven what the model is and we really want to accelerate. And so therefore want to raise more equity funding.

And so they want to do another round. And so they chose to do an APO. And remember, they've only raised $50 million in share capital. Mike, sorry to cut you. I don't think you even realized you did it. You said APO when you meant IPO. No, man. Yeah, what I'm saying is, so they did an IPO first, right? Yes, but you said APO. That's why I was confused. So they listed for $50 million. No, they wanted to expand.

Exactly. So they did an IPO first, right? They for $50 million. No one wants to expand. Exactly. So they did an IPO first. They raised $50 million. $50 million and they're going for $50 million now. Right, exactly. And they have expansion. Right. And they have expansion. So based on the equity that there is in the IPO,

they executed on the plans and they knocked the plans out of the park. And then two years later, they decide that they want to kind of kick it up a notch again. So they want to go out to the market for an additional $50 million. So they have $50 million in share capital on their balance sheet, and they want to raise an additional $50 million as an APO. Now, given your theory, and what I just outlined earlier, do you still believe that the APO effect will happen in that particular instance? Do you know what the APO effect is?

Well, you just described it, and you described it well, so I don't think we need to rehash it. Tell me it in your words. No, you tell me it in your words. Well, based on your description, my understanding... Right, my understanding of your description, and you can correct me if I'm wrong, my understanding of your description is that

when a company basically issues new shares at a price either at the market price or below the market price then that essentially creates a ceiling for the price right so

wrong no no stop you can pause there no It creates a ceiling for the price. Right? So. Wrong. No, no. Stop. You can pause there. No. No. The APO effect is when a company issues shares, and it can be a low, it makes sense for it to be a lower price than market price.

When a company issues shares to external parties. Okay. So not to the shareholder, the shareholding circle. Sure. parties, so not to the shareholder, the shareholding circle. They issue shares to the public or external parties who have no issue selling said shares once they are in possession of them. That's the APO effect. The APO effect is a company with 500

shareholders and a share price of $10 bringing in 1,000 new shareholders at a share price of $10, bringing in 1,000 new shareholders at a share price of $2. That company will not see anything above the $2 region for the next few years because you have brought in 1,000 new people at a much lower entry price. That is the APO.

Right, okay, so going back to my example, right? Hold on, you understand that? I understand that I just want to make one point there it does not need to be a lower price exactly

I want to put that on the record it does not need to be a lower price to disadvantage the existing shareholders. But go ahead. But it's a disadvantage when it's a lower price and that it accelerates what happens when it's a lower price. Okay, so for the sake of argument,

let's just say that they issue it at the market price, right? So in this example, they IPO at $1. Because of the fundamental improvement of the company, the stock price has gone to $3. And then the APO... That's not where the price goes. Sure, sure. But I'm saying, for the purposes of this example, just go with me for a second, right? I can't do that.

I can't go down that incorrect road just for this. Just skip the reason. The share price is now at $3. Okay, exactly. The price is now at $3 and exactly the price is now at three dollars three dollars three dollars three dollars they're free they're free to new shareholders brand new so everybody get all existing shareholders get diluted it's not a rights issue you know if any existing shareholders want to participate they have to participate in the apo right so right

right they have to buy into the apo so everybody So everybody gets diluted. So they've only raised $50 million before, and they're raising $50 million in the APO. So the question you're asking is, is the APO effective to apply? Yes. Likely. Well, possibly. Hold on.

It's possible. Why I say it's likely? What's the actual share cap for the company? No, it might not. Hold on. That's an interesting situation where it might not. It is.

I'm doing the same thing you're doing. It's a different angle. Okay, go ahead. Go through, go through. You don't have to be, you don't have to be, it doesn't have to be simultaneous.

What I'm looking at is, yeah, there are other factors that can come into that and make that not necessarily a problem. If the company like trades very often and 50 million is dropping

a bucket, dropping a bucket overall for its share capital, for its thing there, for its, for its the bucket overall for its share capital. For its share capital, then that might not be a big issue there. Well, it's doubling its share capital. But yes, continue.

No, man. I don't mean its share capital. Not share capital. Not share capital. Market capital. Sure, float. Even float. But even then... Market capital is correct, but accurate. You're funny. The thing there.

Well, yeah. I'm supposed to have some really strong plans that people see a strong tangible benefit from after that APO. Then the effect might not be so heavy. Very good point. It depends on the company.

That is exactly. It is not a broad brush. Thank you. Paul, you're not going to listen to me. No, Paul. But the brush is reason, everything. Paul, the brush is reason,

everything. Open and honest answer, right? Anyway, the gloves didn't come with me in the car. So, is that next convo? Go on, go on. Hear me out. That point in your hypothetical case, Mark, where share prices are $3, a bunch of new shareholders are brought in at $3, it could very well avoid the APO effect.

No, I'm not saying that it couldn't. The price, actually, while it doesn't have to be, the price is oftentimes a very strong factor in terms of the dilutive secondary effect, the APO effect, I call it, right? Because if the share price was at three and this offer was at one, then we would have a problem at one. But the fact that the APO price is matching the market price means that the bigger factor now becomes the future performance of the company i am actually okay with that or or or no hold on stop pause for a second

but right i'm gonna i'm going to i'm going to help you out i'm making making your point all right go ahead i don't need to help you you don don't know my point. I am actually on record multiple times as saying, and Dana is also, that there might be ways in which you can tweak an APO for it to work. Now, in the event that the company uses that capital well, and everybody got in at the same price, so we're not worrying about the price, it's at the same price, then you might not have an issue no let's be realistic about it if i am in at a dollar and this happens at three dollars i might think well

on the risk of it falling let me sell in fact let me sell at 280 right which might then screw up the actual APO going to completion. Randy, you're going down a road that the market is going down. You don't need to go down that road. You don't need to go down that road to make the point. What's the possibility?

What's the possibility? This is why we don't lose money on the market over this side. Because we go down the road and understand it fully. It's a wonderful setup that you put out there, Mark. But assuming that the shareholders that come in don't sell, and also assuming that the price that they get it at, if you go to the public, is actually equal to the market price, then you're in a very interesting place. But my question then would be a point that none of us have touched. Why do not to the shareholder rights?

Why go through this trouble for 50 million? Okay, but hold on. Mark, give me a minute. Go on, Paul. Randy, Danai, Randy, Danai, who benefits if the current shareholders are in at a price at one and a rights issue happens at $3 and the rights issue, sorry, who benefits if the current shareholders are in at $1 and the APO happens at $3? Good question.

Hold on, Mark. You said who benefits. Assuming that the money is raised, does the company benefit? Company benefits, yeah. Not just, well... Mark, Mark, yeah. No, not just... Mark! I know where you're going. And Danai are two...

They're very smart. Very smart guys. Randy and Danai. Who benefits if the rights issue is at $1 and... APO, APO. No, if the current

if the current shareholders to me okay okay if the if i write this is that one dollar and that apo is at three dollars since it's a good mistake let's use that good mistake if i write this at one dollar and a apo is at three dollars and an APO is at $3, who benefits? When you say, so we're talking about the same company. Same company. They can either go rice issue or APO. And you're saying if it's an APO, it's at $3 and the rice issue is at $1. Yes.

And they're raising the same amount of money. And they're raising capital for the business. No, the rights issue happened at $1 before, and then I think is what Paul was saying. No, no, no, no, no, no. Even if it happened... At the same time. Okay, got you.

Well, it could happen at the same time. But let's say one happened today and the other happens tomorrow. Oh, so they both happened to the company? So one happened and the other happened? Yes. Okay. So the rights happen to the company? Yes. So the RITG happens at $1 and the APO happens at $3? Yes.

That's not actually asking a question in the sense of what we were talking about though. Alright. But Randy says it's a good mistake. But you're going to see that. Because I thought you were talking about... You're going to see it's the same thing. I thought it was a choice.

Who benefits? That's a pretty open question for not a scenario we're discussing. Yeah. No, no. Who benefits if the share price is at $1?

Let's forget the rights to sale. The share price is at $1 and the APO happens at $3. Who benefits? The APO happens at $1. Let's forget the rights to sale. The share price is at $1 and the APO happens at $3. Who benefits? The APO happens at $3. You mean the IPO was at $1, Paul, but the APO is at $3? No, man. The company is trading today at $1

and an APO comes out and the offer is $3. Who benefits? And the APO is successful. The APO is successful? Yes. How is the APO successful yes it is successful yes successful no because the outside is your own stop the funds are raised because paul went to master fundraiser went to raise the funds

and he really wanted to start raised the strategic strategic strategic interest through airline and somebody would put in so who benefits not the retailer rights are for people benefit because the new investors paying a premium for the same value stocks and then i knows the answer yeah No, but I'm answering. You're stopping me from answering. You're stopping me from answering. Now I want you to stop me from answering. So the point is,

the strategic investor is paying more, but he agreed to pay more and the rights people benefit. And he's not going to sell either. So we're good. That's exactly the point. So everyone, the APA effect has a big part of the APA effect

is somebody selling, the new shareholder selling, and the strategic investor is not going to sell. So we're good, right? You knew that Mark was going to come to get you to agree with me, because you just agreed with me. No, no, no. I'm agreeing with Chris. He's agreeing with me. no no i don't know i'm agreeing with chris so my point is my point is if if the stock price is at one dollar and a strategic investor is

coming in to pay at three dollars your minority shareholder benefits the company benefits so even if you do our rights it's your one and an apo at three your minority and our legacy uh shareholders benefit all existence and so it is not so it is not about the mechanism. It's how you do the mechanism, how you implement the mechanism, Randy. But Paul, hold on. That is my point. Paul, we agree with that. And I've not done this thing. One, two, three, four.

It's not theory. This is practical. This is practical knowledge I'm talking about Paul you're agreeing with me You're agreeing with me Paul No no no So I don't want you to continue going down A road

Right This is my wish To bash the mechanism And I understand that What you need to do What you need to do is qualify the mechanism i would have to say it is all non-Paul Simpsons are APO. You know why, Chris?

Because when we were putting it together, one class of shareholders were on our minds one class minority shareholders because if the minority shareholder wins to us everybody wins everybody wins right 100 percent right if the minority shareholders win everybody win and i can tell you something that is why i don't agree in investing in stocks That you are not in the same boat As the board and management And the largest shareholder If you are not in the same boat as them

Don't invest in that stock I want to be in the stock That bury in Because if him get hurt I get hurt Which is good Which means that he's going to be the best. Paul, you can't

try to kill yourself. No. No. You can't try to kill yourself. No. I want to be in the boat. I want to be in the same boat as the largest shareholder. How do you explain proven then? Well, I told you that there's a stock.

I told you that there's a stock I told you that there's a stock That I know That I'm not going to be invested in Right? Or I don't agree Go ahead You're not in the same boat You have said exactly

The question that Randy Sorry, answered the question That Randy asked me About an hour and a half ago question that Randy, sorry, answered the question that Randy asked me about an hour and a half ago. And you have answered that question. You have answered that question. But you of all

people, why you do that? It don't make no sense. No, you're not going to draw me out. You're not going to draw me out. No, no, we can't, we can't. I mean, listen, listen. You're not going to draw me out. No, no, we can't. We can't. I mean, listen, listen. You're not going to draw me out, Chris. No, you know.

And the truth is, at this point, that is a... That is a... I shouldn't call it a running error, but it's... Wow. Damn. It's not... You know, it's... It's not material. It's not material.

It's not material. Okay, I understand. But Paul, let me just try to ask you something for you. But Paul, the problem is this, right? We all come and we say, oh, we're being frank and open and all of this. And we try to learn from each other. I told all of it, you know, Chris. And that is going to happen. We try to learn from each other. I told all of it, you know, Chris. And that is going to happen.

We tried to learn from each other, right? And then, no, you said, we're both going to do this thing. And then you go back and do the same thing where you're telling us that. When? It's confusing. When did I do it? When did I do it? I don't understand.

I'm confused. No, no, no. Put it up on the screen and see when that transaction happened. You mean the 4.9% have proven that... It was 5% first. 5%.

Okay. But that was a different um and and the reason i didn't i didn't participate in their rights to see your crits um i did not uh the exact reason what i'm preaching against i'm just listening for the abundance of doubt guys i'm not saying it's not a good stock to buy I'm not saying that We're clear Thank you for making that clear

What I want to ask Randy I'm sorry if you're just jumping like this Simon, hold on one second Because I want this to be very clear I can tell that something happened with Paul I suspect you heard Or views about APOs from everybody outside of us. But anybody who actually listened to what we said,

know that we talk about that nuance. No, man, no, man. I'm there. I'm there. I'm there, Randy and Danai. Yeah, man. No, no, no, no. So when I say no to APOs, there is a caveat that I always give.

That we have said exactly that, that if somebody can come with it in a way where this effect can be mitigated or removed, then that's fine. But until then, I'm saying no to it. And my question is always, why do it when you don't have to do it? To quote the great Wayne Marshall,

you'd remember this song back in the day, Paul. Why you do it when you know you shouldn't be doing it? I think you were talking about something different still, but... I think you were probably talking about something different. But just to kind of like put a bow tie on the point I was making earlier about my example, right? Which, you know, I am happy that we got a chance to ventilate it because, you know, in all this discussion about APOs over the last,

you know, year or whatever, it's always focused on the larger entities, right? And this is my hypothesis. My hypothesis... Maybe for you, maybe for you. Hold on. Maybe for you, but let me be clear because unlike you, I'm not going to say that.

You build something that sounded a lot like Ede any focal, and then you back off from it. We don't back off from it here. Even just any junior market company, doing an APO at the low level is unnecessary. But if you bring in retail investors at a lower price than the current share price, you set yourself up for trouble. At the low numbers of the current junior market, there is no need for it to be done do a rights issue and there are certain things you can do around and within a renown to the rights issue to allow it the biggest concern I think at that level would be can the

majority shareholder or the controlling shareholders maintain their control there are things that can be done around that. I have to always fall on the side of the retail investor. It is a retail investor who, so far, has been burned by every APO except the burrito ones. There you go, Paul. And unless everybody else who is going to do it is going to show that they are thinking along the same lines, then we're going to be burned. Right.

And retail, share with us about our market. These are public companies talking about. Sure. And you're making my point for me, right? Which is where I was going. The point I was making and the reason I asked that question the way I asked it is because my hypothesis is that it's not the APO effect. It is the effect of large issues relative to the size and the pockets of retail investors. Because, in other words...

That's what we call incorrect. Let me just finish, let me just finish, please. Because my hypothesis is that a lot of these large issues that want to raise billions and billions and billions of dollars, you're not going to raise billions and billions of dollars from the average retail investor, right? You have to include... Why not?

Because the Jamaican market hasn't developed to the point where enough of our retail investors don't have that aggregate amount of investing power yet. Mark, what you're saying is rubbish. In a nice way, it's rubbish. Look on Wigtown. Granted, the pensions were in Wigtown. Granted, some institutions were in Wigtown, but how much of Wigtown

was retail? Randy. Randy. Randy. Randy. Randy. Randy. Randy. Randy. Randy. Randy. Randy. Randy. Randy. Randy. Randy. Randy. Randy. Randy. Randy. Randy. Randy. Randy. Randy. Randy. Randy. Randy. Randy. Randy. Randy. Randy. Randy. Randy. Randy. Randy. Randy. Randy. Randy. Randy. Randy. Randy. randy no randy randy randy randy randy randy randy

no right now retail investors no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no transactions. Come on. Exactly. There were seven. Every broker was a broker. Big, big, big. You guys want to listen? Come on, yo. Mr. Derrick is the one that did the research.

Simon. Okay, hear me out. I'm going to go again. Yes, the pension. I wonder if you guys again. Yes, the pension. I wonder if you guys heard me a while ago when I said that? Said what? Yeah, man, we heard the pension. We heard you say the pension. I said, yes, the pensions participated.

Yes, the institutionals participated and participated heavily. But the idea that you cannot raise a strong amount of money from the from the retail market is not an idea that i'm going to abide by and it's not an idea that is going to justify oh well an apo that is at the retail level won't burn because the reality of the apo effect is very much done from the retail level it is not the institutions that are selling back heavily on the market to cause JM&B share price to not go anywhere. Pause and think of what I just said. Sure.

It is the volume of the retail investors that have bought into the APO that are selling to cause the price to fall. No, no, no. When the pension buying for 10 years, 15, 20, no. years it dropped 15 the downward breaker hit the next day the other person of 100 grand go may i get out before the downward breaker hit again that is the day-to-day reality of the market okay

use the inverse i'm randy use the inverse randy use the inverse what happened if i you know i want to buy six million burrito stock or six million uh let's say 12 million wigrito stock or six million with less said 12 million weak ton stock million units are weak ton and you're choosing to buy it on the market sorry let's let's say I won by five percent a week done tomorrow well five percent a week on this part is gonna require a retail account candidate no but we're not speaking about that. It is literally the lack of them being able to do that. That is the point.

Yeah, I want to jump in. That's my point, though, Randy. And it's gone, sir. Sorry. Yeah, I want to jump in. Sorry. So I declare an interest here as an investment banker myself with Paul and Chris to some extent as well so mark's point was

that the the what we're defining as the retail market here and retail here is not a derogatory term it's just we're talking about everybody outside our institutions um mark's point yeah my yeah man i just i just clarifying that so everybody understands. Mark's point is that if you want to raise a certain amount of money, that particular part of the market cannot raise it. So the points that you pointed out a while ago are unrelated. They are unrelated to what Mark is talking about. Because in your comment, you're not in the round. Let me finish that.

Tell me the amount of money that the retail cannot get. In your comment a while ago, you said if they raise this excluding pension funds, but you can't exclude that. That's exactly what Mark is talking about. That's exactly what Mark is talking about. He said excluding pension funds. That's not what I said. That's what he said. What do you mean? That's what what Mark is talking about. He said excluding pension funds. That's not what I said.

That's what he said. What do you mean? I said, yes, we can exclude the effect of the pensions. But how can you? That's the point that Mark is saying. That's the point. Let me say it another way for you to get the comprehension. You're not understanding me.

Let me say it another way. Let me say it another way for you to get the comprehension for you not understanding me. Let me say it another way. Yes, the pensions and the large parties are heavy hitters in that and they put the majority of the money in. Is that clear? Yes.

Outside of their effect, however, that's what I mean. You understand what I say? I hear you. What I'm saying saying mark is saying including their effect so if you say outside of their effect you're drifting from what mark is saying exactly so what he's saying to raise a certain amount of money and paul said it before paul say if you want to bring in a strategic party are you looking to raise we're talking about bigger money here so

let's say you want to raise 13 billion dollars we i i think generally what we're talking about bigger money here so let's say you want is 13 billion dollars we i i think generally what we're asking from you is can the retail market read five billion dollars can the retail market raise three billion dollars so when we're looking at these issues let's let's move away from theory and and and all of that you you have people on this card you are i'm gonna do it no i'm gonna do it in two ways you need to broaden your horizon a bit why can't you sell the renown civil rights why can't you renounce some rights to a pension why can't you renounce one billion over three billion dollars raised to the picture randy you're getting caught up in a wrong thing like it doesn't no you're not the mechanism doesn't matter if if deliberately if the if the oh my god If the liquidity is not there, it doesn't matter if it's an APO, IPO, renounceable rights issue, participating in prefectures.

It does not matter. If there's only $1 billion of retail money, hypothetically speaking, I'm not saying there is, but I'm saying if there's only $1 billion of retail money for an offer and you are trying to do a $5 billion rights issue and only targeting retail investors, it does not matter. You're not going to raise the $5 billion. That's the reality.

Why is the rights issue only being put to retail? Why is the hypothetical rights issue only being put to retail? I'm No because It goes back to the point I was making earlier Which is that most of the APOs that we have seen That are commonly referenced About this APO effect Are main market APOs

That is what That doesn't matter No so No no but then I... Remember the example I brought up? The $50 million IPO and the $50 million IPO. The reason I did that, I did that very specifically because we all... Hold on, Ernie.

Because we all on this call have a general understanding that a $500 million IPO can more or less easily be raised from retail investors we all know that we see it all the time that's why I chose a 50 million dollar figure because that's that's an implied knowledge that all of us have and so I did that specifically so the point I was making is for a company that did a 50 million dollar IPO it performed well, it deployed the capital well, and then it came back to the market for $50 million

to the retail market. I specifically chose that number because we wouldn't need to go to pension funds. Right? And so I love what Paul brought up about the price.

Randy, let me finish now. The reason that I love about the point about the price is because the reason, like, if the market price is $3, and the company decides to do an APO at $3, the reason that the company likely believes and is confident

that it can sell an APO at the same price as a market price is likely because there is confident that it can sell an APO at the same price as a market price is likely because there is not enough supply of shares available for the demand currently in the market. It genuinely believes that if it issues $50 million worth

of shares, it can sell the $50 million worth of shares in the APO. That is the only reason. Otherwise, you would want to do that discount. Yeah, I agree. I agree. They would do that for that reason. What's the point there?

So the point I was making is that when we simplify the figures down to the smallest amounts that we all agree that, okay, retail investors can meet that demand, then... We didn't do that. No, I did that. I did that to the 50. I retail investors can meet that demand then we didn't do that no i did that i did that to the 50 i did that to 50 and then i did that to make it clear to all of us that once it's reduced to 50 and we all believe that retail investors can do it

then you know the principle of the ap effect comes into question. Right? Because we are... No, not really. Mark, can I ask you something? You know, that's why I asked him what the APO effect was. Because it was clear that he doesn't know. He thinks that it's something else. He thinks it's something else. Yeah. Mark.

Why would you have to exclude the pensions? Well, it's a 50 million lot of our patrons and pension funds are not gonna invest in a 50 million lot of our pensions it's too small so they make their own shares they get money every month who tell you that yeah who tell you that the pensions will put a 2 or 3 million alright well I mean the investment bankers on the call can speak to that but yeah man well I can because

actually operating that space I can speak to that. Yeah, man. Well, I can, because I actually operate in that space. I can speak to that. Am I wrong, Simon? So pension funds will allocate their money where it's efficient. If they see that the rate on offer is going to be significant, then I mean they might participate in 2 million,

but a lot of them would prefer and consider the opportunity cost and would put their 100, 200 million that they get on a monthly basis in a larger relative investment so most are likely not to participate

ok so we are but you don't need a lot because again it's just a pension in a 50 million in a 50 million dollar Randy but you alone't need a lot because, again, it's just a pension. In a $50 million example. Randy, but you alone can give a company $50 million. Come on. Come on.

However, that's not the point. Mark, back to the point. Why would you then think that if a rights issue, a renouncement of the rights issue was done, a pension couldn't... No, man, that's a separate issue. The question was, or the point I was making, which is why I asked the question, I give my example.

The point I was making is that my hypothesis is that the reason that APOs have underperformed is because most of the APOs that have been done, particularly the ones that have underperformed notably, that are frequently used as examples, tend to be on the main market. And the average retail investor does not actively invest as much on the main market as they do in the junior market. And we can see it in the performance of the overall markets for both. And you can also see it in the performance of the individual companies.

Now, to be clear... That's 100%. Hold on, but to be clear, I am not saying that there are no retail investors that invest in the main market. I'm not saying that because there are many... Nobody was saying that you said that. Nobody said that you said that. Nobody's thinking that.

I'm just talking in broad strokes, generally speaking. You're saying that more of them on the junior than the thing there? Than the main. Why? What do you mean? More of what? More retail investors? Yeah, why? Because

A, the floats are smaller. The offers tend to be smaller. So, you know, I can get a more meaningful allocation relative to the float size as a retail investor. You know, therefore, my cap gains are likely to be higher because there's more demand. That's incorrect. 100% incorrect. Okay. You know what I don't understand, Randy?

What's that? you know what i don't understand randy what's that why are all of these apos fully subscribed why do people buy them well no but chris being sold to institutions and what i said and that actually brings up another good point, Chris, is that a lot of these guys that, well, in my reading, from the outside looking in, especially these main market issuers, when they're doing their APO and they're raising their multi-billions of dollars, they're going to these institutions that they know that are just going to hold for a very long period of time,

that they're not having a holy potter. Why does the share price stagnate if that's true? Because a lot of junior market investors are not participating you don't have the high volume relative to the float in the main market um that you do in the junior market that is incorrect look at the share price look at the cones look at the actual active maybe maybe i actually know because i'm looking at look at jm mba no it's okay it's in the retail is there man mark like it's pretty strong it is extremely strong it is why i look at it what what does it mean no i think i think i think we're looking at this thing there

i mean the the the junior market is a higher percentage. Right, exactly. Mark and Simon. Paul and Barry aren't the typical retail investors we're talking about, are they? Right, but okay, so like 500 million dollars of retail activity.

Just one second. What I'd say is that I wouldn't compete with GMMB and Berry on the retail side of IPO or APO, right? One of the most successful IPOs in terms of volumes of people. Chris, Chris, Chris, Chris did it. GMMB is, yes, I think Chris did Wigtown. And it was a bottom-up allocation, which meant that the...

No, no, hold on. Let me just state some facts. I'm just checking. Yeah, man, I'm just stating some facts. But if you look at the participants of the IPO, it was very skewed to retail investors. A lot of retail investors came in. However, the larger institutional investors, pension funds or whosoever else came in with significant volumes. Now, if a police and a soldier and a nurse, a blue collar worker came in, they could spend up to one, two, three, five, you know, possibly $10 million.

If you are going to buy over $10 million, I suspect that would be coming from a high net worth client or institution. I don't know. If you look at JMNB, JMNB has one of the largest books in terms of clientele. And so again, on the retail side, you can't compete on a bottom-up retail cycle. So if you want to compete in terms of bringing on large investors, large strategic investors,

uh as large strategic investors uh you're gonna have to skew to uh you're gonna have to have a skew to to to to to to in uh institutional uh investors including including uh high net worth clients and and and pension funds i'm just stating that for a fact i'm not saying you're against what what mark is saying i just want to set the context for the listeners. I understand. Because I also understand the facts didn't agree with what you were saying. But he needed it to not agree for his point to be made. Wait, which facts didn't agree

with what I said? Be specific. Why the facts about the effect of pensions, one, coming in, and two, the actual APO effect, which, again, you're not speaking to what it actually is. You're speaking to the

price only. And, well, you know, the shareholders can raise it. The raise isn't a question. These larger APOs that happen, and they're raised, as Chris pointed out, they've been raised, and they're oversubscribed. and the large shareholders that come in aren't selling.

So why is the share price falling then? Who is selling? Well, that's a good question. I suspect it's likely retail investors. Well, if it's only institutional and retail in the market and institutional is not selling, then most of the retail...

That's what I just said. So you're agreeing with me retail in the market and the institutional is not selling. That's what I just said. I just said that. So you're agreeing with me that it creates an incentive for the retail to sell at lower and lower values over time. That is the actual APO effect and it happens independently. I'm not

missing your point but your point is beside the actual APO effect point because you think what you think that i think the api effect is is not what i've ever said it is so sorry for my for me being a newbie on your show um uh just just just educate me for two seconds what is what is it what is your philosophy of the api effect The APO effect is when a large amount of shareholders or a large motivated shareholder receives shares at a lower price than the current market price and is then incentivized to sell at profit at a much lower price than the market price. Hence, the GMMB example of $50 market price, $37, $38.75 APO. Profit starts then at $38.76, which means that a retail investor is going to be incentivized to sell at $38.76 or higher.

And you've brought in thousands of retail investors at $38.75. So that means that you have a motivated group of small people who are willing to sell at a much lower price. The only way to go around that is to have somebody buy heavily when they are selling, which I know you understand, Paul. No, no. when they are selling, which I know you understand, Paul. No, no.

What I do understand is my point of view on successful APO effects and right tissue effects. And so what I'd say to you also is that when structuring APOs or right tissues or both classes of right tissues, you want to take into consideration, as I said before, if we give an exemption to the Paul rights offer effects,

those are excluded. All right, Chris. So I'm speaking about how you would not disenfranchise the average retail investor. Investor. Yes.

And your legacy shareholders. They have to create alpha for your legacy shareholders, the existing shareholders. One way of doing that is them coming in at a delta that gives anything above one to the current

existing shareholders, which is a higher price. And that goes with that. The only way we can agree with you the existing shareholders, which is a higher price. And that, and with that, go ahead. The only way we can agree with you on this one is if

when you're doing APOs, not only for Barita, but for every company, you stick to this formula. Go easy, no crit. Oh, Chris. Agreed.

That's a point of a lot of match. Don't hit it like that. No, because you see, and Chris, you know what? Let's play a little hockey right here. I hear you.

And if we get into it now, this is going to go to five o'clock and it's going to be one for the ages. And Randy, you're stalking it and I am going to speak about it, but not tonight. But Chris, I'm

going to say, absolutely we want our ethos to matriculate to everything, and osmosis to what we've done with Barita. So fear enough. I will take that point, and I'll dive in it with you. No, we don't need to dive. Thanks for giving me an afram.

No, no, no. Whether it is the APO principle as Randy described it, the APO, the point is people have to put thought into structuring, not to put the retail, the existing shareholders at a disadvantage. And if the structuring is done correctly, then the whole market benefits. And that's really what we're trying to achieve to have these things done successfully so yeah we can't put a lot of labels on it and at the end of the day the label

don't really matter right right right right but at the same time randy's point is being he's speaking to a lot of people who are not experts right right he has to have a simple terminology to say, hey guys, when you see this kind of thing that look like this, this is what we call it and you need to be careful because you're going to get hurt. You may get hurt. Yes, yes, yes. You're very likely

to get hurt unless it's a burrito one. Yes. All of those get exemption. Well, we can't give him an exemption yet, you know, because... That's true, because there's a massive point that you put out there. But he has promised us, and we accept the promise. Yeah, I'll make sure that the team, our internal ethos, matriculate to the deals they look at at Chris 100%

we need to stick to the Barita principle fear fear enough fear enough thank you very much gentlemen thank you I don't want to stress nobody else for the rest of the night I think we've had a lot

quite a night quite a night Randy Paul Thank you. I don't want to stress nobody else for the rest of the night. I think we've had a lot of stress. Quite a night. Quite a night. Randy Paul brought it up. Can't take the stress. You think you get to be a billionaire without being stressed out? That is true. That is true. I suspect that is very, very, very, very true. Thank you both gentlemen in here. Both are other billionaires in here and any secret billionaires in here and the millionaires, the multimillionaires and the rest of us.

Thank you very much for this Brick Talk. I can tell you something that I said to Danai earlier. I gave him the choice as to whether or not we wanted to do it or put it off this week. In true fashion, every single time we really don't want to do it and I do it, it works out to be a very good

Brick Talk. So thank you everybody for jumping in. Thank you for the views I've heard. Thank you to the gentlemen who have come and laid out a lot of conversations. This is the sort of thing we want in the market. This is why Earnings Season and Brick Talk exists. And big up to everybody

with all the efforts, including Paulie and I have to tellelu again we know. Say it one more time. Please. Pitch deck. Pitch deck. You know, we have Simon, we have Krista, we have, you know, persons popping up all the time.

Chris, please just pass by, give us a nice vibe on Stacks on the Rocks and Pitch Deck. I need some help looking at about 70 applications of individuals who we're going to be investing in their business. I think we might can't pull down all of them, but certainly if you and I are on it, we can

pull down most of all. So give that a vibe as well, Barry. Randy, of course, I know you've been retweeting. Thanks for that. I beg you to retweet and pitch Paul Simpson, and Stacks on the Rocks.

I beg you, and tune in. You're welcome. Unpause for a second. Simon, I know you're still there. Can you hear me? Yeah, man. I can hear you. Audio going up. Remember that night when I was at Stacks on the Rocks and I said, stick with this thing. It's a serious thing. You can get some

corporates behind you and stick with it. You remember that night? Yeah, man. I remember, man. Everything coming to fruition. Randy, I hope to see you in Montaigne. Montaigne is going to be spicy at Palisades. Come back, man. We'll bring it back to you. I'll try and be there.

No, I'll make Barry send the boat. It's right after Harbour. No, Barry have a jet too, right? Oh, I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I never know. I never know. I never know. Helicopter with him, man. Helicopter.

We can't last with a helicopter. Well, I'm happy that you stick with it, Simon. And this is what I wanted to say. I'm happy to hear it. I would love to tell you that. Listen, anybody who wins pitch deck, I will try and give them a draw, of course, if they don't get one already. If they haven't done it already, they haven't done anything i think we accept that we we will take that has has joined on and and in in my understanding is that they said they'll give

one year free membership um barry i don't hear you you never come off mute and say you'll try and make it will you try and make it chris i thought you i thought you're off here all right and and let you know how it's going all right i'll i'll take that i'll take that all right guys i mean you know we we so so i've i've given the plug to um to pitch deck uh randy and of course what you're doing here, Brick Talk, big. And again, my money, Jay, it's not normal. Not normal at all.

Big up and thank you. Thank you again to the team. So thank you everybody. Don't forget Danai. Easily. Somebody might not like you, but it is the truth. The best financial advisor. best financial advisor, independent financial advisor that's working for

people right now. You can go to him at dhalladvisor.com and if you want to learn about investing, www. everymickel.com slash grwrgrow. It is easily the best investment course to teach you about the local market.

There is no better. And thank you again to everybody who's been here. And thank you very much, Christopher, agreeing and touching a wonderful point, one that we hope to touch again in the future. So thank you, guys. I won't keep you any longer. Have a great night.

And goodbye. I said, then I drop off. So I'm going to say goodnight for him. I'm going to say big up. him big up big up and goodnight everybody big up James have a good night grow grads I'll see you tomorrow yes sir better than one billionaire, two.