Effectively Wild: A FanGraphs Baseball Podcast - Effectively Wild Episode 1092: Live at Saber Seminar (for the Second Time)

Episode Date: August 6, 2017

In Effectively Wild’s second annual live recording at Saber Seminar, Ben Lindbergh and Jeff Sullivan talk to former major league pitcher (and current Red Sox pitching development analyst) Dave Bush about his new job in the Red Sox front office, how he’s using data to develop minor league pitchers, his experience coaching in China, and […]

Hello, listeners. Long time no talk, which is our fault, not yours. This past week was crazy for us. Between the trade deadline and both of us being on the road, it was tough to coordinate times. So we missed a listener email show, which we will make up with an extra episode or maybe an extra long episode in the coming week. But fortunately, we were able to get together this past Saturday because we were both in the same room at Saber Seminar, the excellent annual conference for baseball learning in Boston, whose proceeds always go to charity. It's organized excellently every year by Chuck Korb and our friend Dan Brooks,

who invited us to do this live podcast at Saber Seminar for the second consecutive year. So in just a second, you will hear me and Jeff in front of a live audience with a few cool guests. And if that sounds like something you'd be interested in, and you're somewhere in the New York area, if you're listening to this before Monday night, you still have time to attend our next live show at the Bell House in Brooklyn on Monday evening. Jeff and I will be recording another live podcast. Jay Jaffe will be there. Hannah Kaiser, Lindsay Adler, and Tom Ley from Deadspin will be there. You can get tickets on ticketfly.com. Just go there and search for

Pitch Talks. It should be the first result. Also, I will link to that ticket buying page in the Facebook group and on the blog post at Fangraphs. We hope you can join us. Tickets are $15, but you can get a $5 discount using the coupon code TheRinger. That's one word. All right, so let me take you on an auditory journey to Saturday afternoon at Saber Seminar. And thank you to our Patreon supporters for making this possible. I got paid, but I do it because I love it. All enemies hush, let the seminar start.

Go, go, go, go, to the seminar. Go, go, go, go, to the seminar. Go, go, go, go, to the seminar. Go, go, go, go, to the seminar. All right. Hello, everyone. I am Ben Lindberg. I'm a writer for The Ringer. This is Jeff Zeldin. Go, go, the sun. of Effectively Wild, a baseball podcast at Fangraphs. You can catch up on the other 1091 later. They were mostly about baseball. We did this here last year. And the nice thing about

doing a live podcast at Saber Seminar is that the crowd is full of people that we would probably want to talk to anyway. This is like one of the few places where you could probably just randomly select someone from a crowd and do a pretty good baseball podcast with them, except for the people who have NDAs and confidentiality agreements. There are a few of those I see also. But we were originally supposed to talk to Dickie Thon, the former major league player today. And Dan said, do you guys want to do a podcast? And we said, sure. And he said, do you want to talk to Dicky Thon? And we said, sure, I think so. Okay, we'll figure out something. And so that is what it says on the program.

But we are not talking to Dicky Thon. Dicky Thon's not here. So if you were at the conference solely to see Dicky Thon, I apologize. I hope you get your money's worth anyway. But we have some other really interesting former players here. And last year we talked to Brian Bannister, we talked to John Baker, we talked to David Ardsma, they've all been on the podcast. And today we are talking to Dave Bush first, who is right next to me. And I believe your title is pitching analyst, pitching development analyst for the Red Sox. I'm a pitching development analyst.

I just started this past year, but essentially I'm using, to use the big word, using the data and trying to incorporate into our coaching, our player development. There's so much information and a lot of teams, including the Red Sox, are having trouble getting that to the players and to the coaches. I know Bannister started with it last year. He was trying to do everything. It ended up being too much. So this year he's with the big league team full time. And I got hired to do essentially the whole minor league system. So to travel around to all the affiliates, to introduce stuff to younger guys, to make some different changes with the older guys, but essentially to bridge the gap from all the info to our players in our system and try to

speed up their player development. So I don't know how often former big league players get this kind of thing, but I don't play fantasy sports anymore. But when I did, there was like a two-year period where you, Dave Bush, were like my number one sleeper for like two springs in a row. There was like well-known in the league that you could extract a very high price from, from Ben Lindbergh for Dave Bush. Cause you had like a good ground ball rate. You didn't walk anyone. And there were a couple of years there where you had a good ground ball rate, you didn't walk anyone, and there were a couple of years there where you had fielding independent pitching stats that were much lower than the actual runs that you had allowed, and so you were kind of the popular sabermetric pick for the breakout sleeper player.

So there were a couple of years there where people would just draft Dave Bush knowing that they could trade me, Dave Bush, for someone who maybe was worth more, no offense, but I have acquired Dave Bush on my podcast, so I'm pleased about that. And I'm curious because you and Brian, I think, were maybe sort of similar style pitchers, at least like, you know, you were more of the finesse type pitcher, as opposed to Brian's father, for instance, who was the flamethrower. And I wonder whether that has contributed to the fact that you are in these roles now that you, I don't know whether like Brian, you were into the numbers and the analytics when you were a player, because he kind of became

famous in very small sabermetric circles for looking at his pitch fx data after his starts and that kind of thing but it seems to me that that's kind of a common element among the players who've been hired to do the jobs that you guys have is that like you guys had to exploit every edge that you could while you were players just to get the most out of your your skills and your talent so i wonder whether that is something that ties you together and when you started getting interested in this side of the game. Well, yeah, it was for Bandy and I, we actually started against each other one time in the big leagues.

So we've recounted that story a couple times. Yeah, share it with us. Well, I think it was 2007. I ended up getting the win. I've reminded him a couple times. We both struck each other out. So we have that to go on. One of my odd kind of recalls from that game is I turned to one unassisted double play,

which is an extremely rare play. So I kind of remember it for that from that game. We had the higher game score. That's what I want to know. You could play index that probably really real quick, right? I think it was me. I can't swear to it. But I know even back then that before I really knew Brian,

I knew he was ahead of the curve as far as player involvement with these kind of numbers. Pitch FX was just starting to show up. The first stadium I remember seeing him was in Pittsburgh, and they were putting numbers up on the scoreboard, and I had no idea what they meant. It was negatives and positives and all kinds of stuff that I just, I was curious about it, but I didn't know what it meant. And no one I played with or played for knew what it meant. This probably would have been like 07, 08.

Maybe I can't remember exactly when it was. But it was early on, and I knew this stuff was coming. I just wasn't aware enough to figure it all out on my own. But I remember reading about Brian back then and knowing that he was trying to maximize his abilities. And one of the ways he was doing it was through data and through numbers and going beyond just the regular stats that we were always presented with. So as for myself, I was a kind of a general four pitch pitcher. I relied on command and mixing my pitches and being different than whatever the hitter may expect. And so my whole game was centered around being able to take advantage of whatever I could find. So whether

it was hitter tendency, whether it was something about the movement on my pitches, being able to link pitches back to back to back, remembering what I'd done previous at-bats, you know, all the different scouting reports, all that stuff I had to have in my mind so that on the mound I could make split-second decisions, pitch to pitch, deciding what I was going to do. In a way, it really helped me in what I'm doing now because a lot of the things that I look for now in our pitches when we do development are things that I learned intuitively on the mound based on hitter reaction, based on results. But I had to do it by trial and error in the big leagues. And now the goal is to identify those things earlier

and help players get a hold of them in the minor leagues as low as possible. So by the time they get to the big leagues, they've already figured some of that stuff out. And at the very least, they know themselves better. So we can help them identify what they do well maximize those things and then put them in the best position to be successful in the big leagues i can i can give you some details dave bush seven innings one run outstanding start game score 61 brian banister five innings six runs you it was not a clean so you you were hired by the red sox uh last winter last november last december whatever it was but your your playing career had ended a few years before that. And I understand you worked with an organization called

MLB International, and you were sort of doing a development role, but in a very different sort of circumstance, working with sort of developing, I don't know, what were these markets in other countries, other continents. So as broad a question as this is, I was wondering if you could speak to sort of the things you were doing in Europe, for example, or if you had some time that you were working with players in Africa. Or China, right? Yeah. Yeah, that's right.

So it started, I finished playing in 2013, and I took the next year off. Just needed to live a normal life, or as close to normal life as I could for a year. Have some time with my family and some time at home. Not sure if I wanted to get back into the game at all or not. I was a little bit burned out from competing and trying to carry my, as my skills declined, trying to carry it through as long as I could. And that got harder and harder. And I finally needed a break and took it that year.

And then by the end of 2014, I started missing a little bit and wanting to get back around the game. Not sure in what capacity, but, you know, with the stress gone, I was able to enjoy kind of the smaller parts of the game that I always liked as a kid and started to get back involved with coaching. And then I met Bruce Hurst at a coaches convention. And at the time, he was a pitching coach for the Chinese national team. Introduced myself, told him I recently retired and was looking to get back in the game and always liked traveling, was curious about the international stuff. And so he put me in touch with a guy in New York who runs the MLB international program. And I called that guy up right away. Didn't't expect him to answer, happened to answer the phone. Again, explained who I was,

talked to him for a little bit and told him that I'd played in Korea towards the end of my career and had some experience overseas. And he asked me if I was willing to go to China. I said, sure, you know, why not? I've been over in Asia for a little bit. I'm kind of curious to see what it's like. So within a few weeks, I was on a plane to China to work at the MLB Development Center over there. That led to some work in Europe. Europe led to some work in Australia and Africa. And then I ended up taking over for Bruce as the pitching coach for the Chinese national team. And so all those things kind of link together. And the goal in each place is different. When we're talking about China, you have a billion and a half people there. And so if we can find one major league

caliber player, then you're opening up a billion and a half people as a fan base. It's easy to say the kind of Yao Ming effect. But the idea is the same, that if you can get a player that the whole country is interested in, you have a ton of fans that are going to start following baseball. So I'd say it's a little bit less about finding talented players there as trying to open up a market. Now, we go to Europe, we're less likely to open up a market of baseball fans. There's some team sports that are well entrenched there that's going to be hard to break through, but there are some talented players and some relatively recently that have come out of Europe. So when we do work in Europe, we're talking more about finding specific players that might be good

enough to come here, certainly to play in the minor leagues and hopefully develop into some good big leaguers. Same thing in Australia, you're looking for talented players. Africa would be a similar kind of thing where it's less about developing the market, but more about finding players like Gift and some other guys. I coached on the South African national team also, and we had a handful of minor league guys that are pretty talented and have a chance to get to the big leagues. So there's a lot of good baseball out there. It's just, it's a different path for all those guys. They don't have the little league and school setup that we have here. So they're not playing organized baseball from the time they're five or six. So the learning curve, it starts a lot later, but it's a lot steeper

because they have a lot to learn in a relatively short period of time. So what's the level of awareness in China? I mean, how many people play? What's the level of play? China's tough. You have between Korea, Taiwan, and Japan, you have three very good baseball nations right around there. And China's way behind, way, way behind in their interest and the level of player and participation.

It's just not very popular. It's not on TV at all. And so in some cases, we're working with as young as middle school age Chinese kids who have never picked up a ball before. They've gotten in the program for their size, for their athleticism, for some of their sport they played. But in some cases, it's the very first time they've picked up a ball. And so you're really starting with basics like how to hold the ball and how to grip it. And then we're developing from there. You know, they've been running that program through MLB for close to 10 years now. And there are another guy signed a few weeks over now,

three guys who are going to be in the minor leagues who are native Chinese players that came through that system. And we're eventually trying to graduate them on to the national team. And the goal would be to be able to compete a little bit better in the WBC, to be able to compete as kind of a fourth country in that Asian group and have a better foundation in that part of the world. But it's getting better. It's a slow process, but it's getting a lot better.

It's a lot of fun. I've worked with some really, really cool kids and some good players. It's taught me a lot about myself, a lot about how I coach. It's given me a different perspective on what it means to develop players and how we go about it. Yeah. So if you're working with a Chinese pitcher who has just picked up a ball, how is what you're doing different from, I mean, now you're working with the Red Sox, you're working with guys who've been brought up around the game. How do you start with a Chinese pitcher? Well, the most important thing is developing a relationship of some sort. Yeah. And that's carried over a lot to my current job is if I can't have a one-on-one relationship

with a player, then I'm not going to be able to get my point across no matter what my point is. So it starts with trying to be personal with them, try to learn just a couple of simple Chinese phrases just so they know that I'm trying because they're trying to learn English at the same time. And then it's just evaluating the individual because each guy has different issues. Some guys have physical issues that they're trying to work through. Other guys have never really competed in anything. And so they're trying to get through the emotions and the mental game of staying on the mound and being all by yourself and throwing a good pitch. In the WBC, we were out in Japan in March of this past year. And for almost all my players, we're playing

in Tokyo Dome and that's a 50,000 seat stadium yeah they've never seen anything even close to that and so getting them to keep themselves under control and so look we're just we're competing just like we did at the field back in China and getting them to understand that aspect of it when you're talking about development trying to identify certain characteristics of those players that they might develop into better pitchers like I said that's helped me a little bit leading into my current job where just, you know, identifying what I think may work and how we can go about getting the most out of those kind of kids. I would think that when you talked about the importance of developing a relationship with the players that you were developing before,

and now you bring that into your current role where, I mean, it might be 50-60% of your job is just being able to have an established relationship with a young pitcher that you're working with. But like you said, they brought you in because it was too much for Bannister to be handling. And I mean, you've got dozens, maybe 100 pitchers who are technically under your watch. How do you feel like you've been able to maintain relationships with players where it might seem like you're sort of having to bounce around and not be able to get very deep? It's a bit of a challenge.

I'm learning everybody this year. Being my first year, I've got a whole system's worth to learn. So I spend a lot of time in the spring training trying to get to know the coaches, trying to just observe a lot, talk to some people, get a feel for what we do as an organization, get a feel for what the coaches are trying to do, try to get a feel for just where our players are and the things we're trying to work on.

And then, as you said, a lot of it's just building relationships. There's a ton of numbers out there. There's a lot of information. A lot of it's available to everybody. It's what you can do with it. And to me, that starts with having that personal relationship with coaches and players that I can sit down with piles and piles of numbers. But if coaches and players don't trust me or don't believe in what I'm giving them,

then it's not going to get anywhere. And so it's building that level of trust so that I feel confident having a conversation where it's back and forth, where it's not just me giving numbers and saying, go do this. It's me presenting them with something that I think is going to help them. And they give me some feedback and I give something back and we go back and forth because there's rarely a single answer, never a single answer for a problem on the field. It's a matter of presenting some options and letting the players and the coaches find something they're comfortable with and they can take ownership of. And then, you know, as they develop and as they make changes, then there's more info for them.

And the things that I tell guys in A-ball is different than what I might tell some guys in AAA and different than what Benny works on in the big leagues, because at each level, you're working on a different aspect of development yeah so to the extent that you can tell us how do you fit into the organizational depth chart you have brian you have coaches with each affiliate you have maybe a another kind of pitching coordinator you have the front office analysts who are probably feeding you information so how do you communicate with everyone you work with it's a little bit of everything yeah and it really is uh sometimes Bandy and I will laugh because no one's quite sure what to do with us. We're not really coaches, but we're not really front office guys either. We're some combination of both where the playing experience I had helps me in being able to be on the field and being comfortable on the field and being able to have those conversations with players and coaches because to some extent I've been there.

Like you said, I learned a lot of this intuitively on the field and I made a lot of mistakes along the way. And so hopefully I can help guys understand those things earlier than I did. At the same time, I have to be able to have conversations with the guys in the front office too, because they're the ones who are giving us this data and they're the ones who are helping me understand it. They're the ones who are building the programs for it. And so my people skills have had to work hard in that and being able to talk to a lot of different people. We've got guys who don't speak English that I have to be able to communicate in some way with. We have high school-age American kids. We have college kids.

We have, like I said, all the guys in the front office. So there's a lot of variety, which I like, but there's a lot of challenges in that I'm bridging the gap between a lot of different groups in an area that's still relatively new. Yes, the numbers have been around for 10 years in some cases with the PitchFX, but it's still not something that everyone accepts and everyone understands. And so I can't just throw numbers out there and say, this is it. It's got to come with some sort of explanation so that the understanding, when we get to the point where everyone understands what we're talking about, then we have a collective group that can move forward quickly. So a lot of what I do is just building those bridges and trying to explain things in a way that we can get everyone on board

and let them know that all of this advice is with the intention of helping the players get better. There's nothing in it for me. There's nothing in it for anyone else other than we're trying to put the best product in the field and help guys develop the fastest and the best. And anything I provide is with that goal in mind. I don't mean to interrupt the conversation we're having about your current role, but something I did want to make sure to throw out. I noticed earlier that to interrupt the conversation we're having about your current role, but something I did want to make sure to throw out. I noticed earlier that you faced Barry Bonds nine times.

I did, yes. You only allowed one hit. I did. You struck him out three times. I did. What made you better? By the transit of property, you're the best pitcher in the world. So in two years in a row, I think it would have been probably 06 and 07, he was right at milestone numbers. So I think he was at 714 in 06 and maybe 754 in 07. And so it was, you know, every at-bats alive cut in. And I remember thinking to myself that I'm going to go after him. Like I was a control guy. If all of a sudden I start pitching around, it's just not the way I competed.

And so I was determined that I was going to go after him one way or another. And I remember just being really excited about those at-bats and the chance to face someone that good. I mean, he's the best, and he was even then at 40-something years old. But I remember being amazed in the course of a game, he'll have four at-bats, might see 15 or so pitches, swing one time, and hit a line drive. And I was astonished at his ability to never be

off balance, to never chase a pitch, to be so patient, and then when he decided to swing, he hit a line drive. And he was just, like I said, even at that point in his career, he was so good, so much better than everyone else. What was the scouting report? What was the game plan? Because you were

around the plate, and as you mentioned, he doesn't chase anyway. So yeah, the goal wasn't a whole lot different for most guys, but to mix my pitches and try to get him to swing at something that I dictated. And as long as I could dictate the situation, I felt like I had a slightly better chance. I don't go into it thinking I'm going to get him out all those times or strike him out, but the goal is to make quality pitches. And then if the situation presents itself, go for a strikeout.

I wasn't typically a strikeout pitcher, but they would show up when I was hitting my spots and able to sequence my pitches the way I wanted to. And for whatever reason, I was able to do that in those couple games. But, I mean, yeah, those are moments that I remember a lot from a player, the chances to play against some of the best players in the history

of the game and be able to compete against them. That's 33% strike it right against Barry Vaughn. Maybe you didn't have the numbers in the back of your head, but I would carry that with me around forever. Yeah, probably tattoo material. Yeah, so you obviously made it to the major leagues. You stuck around for a while. You pitched in Korea a little toward the end of your career.

And then you worked with MLB International. Now you have a job with the Red Sox. Obviously, every player that you're working with currently, the dream is the same. They want to make it to the major leagues. They want to have a long, successful, very healthy shoulder and elbow-y career. But I would imagine that one of the reasons that you were brought in is that you can offer this perspective. You've been everywhere. You've done a lot of different things in baseball you had a modestly successful career but also one that's very colorful it took you in a lot of places so to to what extent you're interacting with very young pitchers how often do you talk

about how you know it making the major leagues and staying there for 10-15 years isn't always life and death you know you can do a lot more with this career than just trying to be the 1%. Yeah, there's been a lot of variety. I've been very lucky in that regard. One, I was able to develop and get to the big leagues and stick around for a while. And then following that, I've been able to get more out of baseball than just being a player. And I probably didn't realize that as a player. I knew there were some options out there, but didn't know if I wanted to pursue that. And then I found that I have a skill set and some experiences that lend themselves very well to doing what I'm doing now. And, you know, I've tried to explain that to some of the players,

that each experience we have on the field, good and bad, adds to our total package of who we are as a player and what we can become after that. I've reminded plenty of guys, and up until last week, I was the most recent pitcher to give up back-to-back to back home runs in the big leagues. And, you know, it was a moment when it happened where like four runs in a row, it doesn't happen very often. You've got company now. Right. And I remember, you know, like having to answer questions afterwards and being upset by it and trying to deal with that. But then realizing that it wasn't the end of the world and that

five days later, I was going to start again. And so I used some of those experiences to tell guys, look, there's going to be some really, really bad moments on the field. There's some really good moments too. And being able to find a kind of a steady place in between served me very well and it's helped me post-playing career and some of the other things I've done too. Did Michael Blazek give you a phone call? I brought that up to a few guys, and oddly enough, the other record from that game was, I think, five more runs in an inning. And the last time that had happened was also a game I started,

but it was for us offensively in Milwaukee. So I was on both sides of that. But look, those things happen. It's a lot easier to take now that I'm retired. I have a much better perspective on those things. But the important part is that as a player, there's always ups and downs, and there's some difficult moments, and being able to find a steadiness in between where you can deal with that and use it to get better and make adjustments from it.

Like I said, it served me very well. It's one of the reasons I was able to stick around with really average stuff was I could make those adjustments start to start, game to game, at bat to at bat, and try to just be as good as I could in each situation. So can you give us any kind of case study on how your job has helped or made a difference this year? Like, you know, Brian, for instance, it's been reported that he helped reinvent Rich Hill, and he's the guy who kind of encouraged him to start relying on his breaking ball more, mixing up his pitches, that kind of thing.

And, you know, every now and then you'll see Ryan Bannister innovation credited somewhere in the media for something a Red Sox pitcher is doing differently. Is there anything you can point to, even if you don't identify the player, but just some case this year where you think you were able to make a difference with someone? Yeah, as I said before, it changes by the level. With lower levels, it's helping guys identify what they actually do and how their ball actually moves. There's a tremendous amount of misidentification of a guy's own stuff. A lot of pitchers think their balls do one thing,

and it does something entirely different. And so the biggest thing at the lower levels is helping guys figure out what they actually do well and getting them to understand that they think they throw a sinker. It's a very common misperception is guys think they throw sinkers, and it's really just a two-seamer with a little more than average arm side run. In today's game of low ball hitters, that's even less effective than it typically would be because that goes right into swing play.

And so some of it is just getting guys away from a bad habit and letting them know that their four-seamers are much better pitchers than their two-seamer. And in spite of what anyone's told them in the past, we have to add and prove it. And at least here it is. You can look at it if you want to, but we're telling you that the pitch you're throwing more often is less effective. And so just identifying what their best pitches are so they can maximize what they're doing on the mound. That's probably the biggest thing with younger guys is just identifying what they are. As you move up, we're talking more about pitch mix and shaping pitches a little bit differently and trying to help guys get a little more of this, a little more of that to add to a mix that already exists.

And so without getting into too many specifics, with our starting pitchers particularly, it's getting them to utilize a mix that is best for their repertoire. So if you're a four-pitch pitcher, here's a mix that's probably going to work better for you. If you're a three-pitch guy with one outstanding pitch, we're going to trend you this way a little bit. And are you saying like, here's the graph that shows you why that is the case, or here are your spin rates, or here's how much are you getting into the reasons? It all depends on the guy. And that's where the relationship part comes in. Some guys really want numbers and can handle it and like the info because it gives them some sense of security that it's right. Other guys are overwhelmed by that, and they just want some simpler goals that they can keep in mind when they're out on the mound.

So I try to determine, again, based on the relationship and interaction, which path is best. And before I present a guy with information, I'm going to talk to his pitching coach. I'm just going to talk to the pitching coordinator so that they all know and they're okay with whatever information I'm giving out. That's kind of how the chain of command works. It's got to start from the top down. It has to be something that we're all on board with. So by the time it gets to the player, it's been filtered through a couple different steps and we've talked about the best way to present it and whether it's something that goes right to the pitcher or do we go to the catcher instead because the pitcher is going to be overwhelmed by thinking about it. And then the more we can get all that stuff incorporated together, then the smoother this

kind of thing is. But as you guys know, not everyone likes numbers the way that we do. And doing it the right way, it has to happen that way or it's just not going to get us anywhere. At the major league level, at least this year, the Red Sox, I think I saw their number one team in throwing high fastballs. Their fastballs are really high and they're doing it more than ever. Last I checked, I think they're the most extreme team in that regard that we've seen in the last 10 years. You talked about the

low ball hitters, the swing plane stuff that's going on right now. Seems like there's the beginning of a trend there, but you know, that's kind of Bannister's concern, and you're working with these pitchers who are at much, either the next level below the majors or all the way down, and so you were talking about getting pitchers to understand their strengths, but when you're working with these pitchers who are at much either the next level below the majors or all the way down and so you were you're talking about getting pitchers to understand their strengths but when you're in a development role where you have this longer term perspective to what extent are you trying to respond even down there to sort of trends that you're seeing at the major league level in anticipation of maybe your sinker is not going to play so well when you move up four or five levels in a number of years that's's certainly a big part of it. It's not always what I tell the players because we're trying to keep their goals, you know, something right in front of their eyes. If you're an A-ball,

I'll explain to you what you have to do in the big leagues seems like it's too far away. So let's see what you can do in A-ball. And then when you master that, we'll give you some goals to do in AA. With things like the high fastball, that's something that's worked very well for us, as we know, and you put up on some of the charts. So it's important, especially at the higher level in minor leagues, that our pitchers are able to do that because it's going to be asked of them when they get here. And so that's a good example of something that trickles down from the top, is we have some goals in mind. We have certain ways that we pitch hitters in the big league level and how our scattering reports work. I don't want to tell all of our triple A

guys to pitch down the zone, then they get up here and they're asked to pitch up in the big league level and how our scattering reports work. I don't want to tell all of our AAA guys to pitch down the zone, and then they get up here and they're asked to pitch up in the zone. They've never done it before. So there's a lot of connectedness between what Brian's doing with the big league team and with their scattering reports and their approach to pitching that in its own way trickles down. I'm not going to ask a guy to do it if it's not best for him, but with the understanding that if he gets to the big leagues,

that's probably a pitch he's going to have to throw. So it's something we'll work on when the time is right. All right. Well, we really appreciate it. We're lucky that you were just to the big leagues, that's probably a pitch he's going to have to throw. And so it's something we'll work on when the time is right. All right. Well, we really appreciate it. We're lucky that you were just in the crowd. We could just pull up Dave Bush. Sure. I wish it had been that easy to acquire you a decade ago on my fantasy team, but we made up for lost time. So thank you very much, Dave. Appreciate it. We've got Dan Blewett, Kyle Vance, and Dave Fisher, and they are all also professional baseball players, or have been up until recently.

Just wanted to get the perspective. These guys have been everywhere. They have played on all continents and countries and all levels of professional baseball. If I could just pass this around very quickly and just give your brief bio and what your name is, where you played, that kind of thing. So my name plays well to hecklers. My name's Dan Blewett. It's been well used, worn out over the years.

I'm from Baltimore. I played six years, well, seven years, six seasons in independent ball. I've been a right-handed pitcher. I've been a starter and a reliever. And my claim to fame, two things. Number one, I'm a two-time Tommy John survivor, which is not a badge of honor necessarily,

but I also was voted an all-star in my respective leagues after each one, so that was something I was proud of. And I've also hit Jose Quinceca with a pitch, and I've grounded out twice against him. I've hit against him as well. So some interesting stories back there. Stuff to follow. That's good.

My name is David Fisher. Played since 2012 professionally. I was with the Nationals for three years. Got up to high A with them. Played independent ball for two years, and then played this past season. Just got released actually three days ago, so fresh off the boat from the Minnesota Twins.

But I kind of am looking forward to it. Cool coming up here right away. I was talking to Kevin here, and he had an opportunity for me to come here and check some stuff out and dip my toes into some stuff I want to do in the future. So I'm excited. How are you doing? Kevin Vance. Played four years with the White Sox.

Then Rick Cobb came along and released me. No hard feelings. That was great. Then a year with the Diamondbacks, then a year with Dan, Long Island Ducks, and retired last year to take the pitching coach job at URI, University of Rhode Island. So that's what I'm doing now. Perfect timing. I think the ball started to go over the pencil all the time. Then I got offered that job, so I took it. It think the ball started to go over the console. And I got offered that job. I took it. It was the right time. I'll stay with you, Kevin.

I'm curious about how you guys kind of evaluate your own careers as you go along. You get up into your mid-20s, your late 20s. Presumably you still love the game, but you made that decision at some point to make the transition to the next phase. but you made that decision at some point to make the transition to the next phase. So how do you know when that moment has come, as it does come for the vast majority of players? Yeah, me and Dan, I talked about this with him on his podcast.

It kind of depends. There are a lot of ways to do it. When you got drafted, if you're a prospect, so I could kind of see the writing on the wall. I knew what I had to do to make it, and I knew going in I wasn't you know bitter for getting released or anything because I knew I was a 19th rounder and so I wasn't you know a top five pick so I knew I had to sort of over perform and I had I repeated a level and I knew I was like okay that's you know I'll probably get released here at the end of the year it's kind of baseball you know and then just bouncing around a couple two different different teams when they go into Indy Ball,

I thought my chances of making it to the big leagues were very slim. My chances of getting even picked up by an affiliate were very slim. So then obviously making it to the big leagues is even more slim. So I think that for me, it was, am I going to make it to the big leagues? Probably not. So I think it was ready to go to something else. I guess, Dave, you can take this one you guys have been in affiliated ball and indie ball when you're in indie ball do you feel like it's really hard to cross that chasm again and get back or is it more about

how you pitch is it more about who you know and you're kind of working your contacts and saying hey here's how i'm doing? Yeah, for sure. Having gone into IndieBall and then got a chance again to play in AffiliatedBall, the biggest thing for me was obviously, yeah, first off, you have to pitch well. And even still, if you pitch well, a lot of it just comes down to networking. It's just like any other job. You could be great at your job, but if you're not putting yourself out there and kind of reaching out to – I was just emailing, cold emailing GMs directly saying, hey, I have some video here. Do you want to take a look at me? That'd be great. And I just kept

doing it. It just, it's kind of just more of a persistence thing. So in terms of getting back into it from IndyBall, that's kind of just what I went with. Did you pitch to Tebow? I did. I faced him twice this year. I had kind of a weird year. I got to face Tulowitzki and Donaldson on a rehab assignment too. And it was probably one of my worst starts I had, but I managed to, I had them go 0 for 4 with three punch outs. So that was pretty cool. I faced Donaldson in the first inning too, first pitch, drilled him. And then I struck him out twice after that, so that was kind of cool. But yeah, then karma kind of bit me in the ass. But Tebow came and got two hits off me.

He had a bunch single down the third baseline and then a broken bat loop over second base. So I was like, yeah, that's baseball. That's how it goes. It was fun playing against him. It was, I mean, the big crowds and stuff like that. But it was cool. Well, yeah, because you hear a lot about the possibility of bitterness among players who have kind of been putting the time in, like you guys have, and do they resent his being there and taking someone's roster spot

as partly a promotional thing? There's definitely people that do. I think I'm probably in the same boat as these guys. We're all pretty well aware of how the world works and the business of baseball and stuff like that. So I had no problem with him being there. It was great to play against him. It was fun to talk to him and meet him.

Honestly, he's not as bad a baseball player as people might think he must be. He's doing good. He's doing well. And, I mean, if there's any guy that's going to put the effort in, it's going to be him. So I think if he has the ability to go and do that, I mean, why wouldn't he? You know what I mean?

So I'm not going to knock a guy for that. Dan, I know you bashed around with a few independent league teams. And Dave, you played in Australia at one point. Kevin, you played in Germany. So when you have these different opportunities, how much are you motivated by, you know, I can go, I can succeed at this level, and I can get noticed, I can kind of work my way back. And how much is maybe taking a realistic perspective, thinking,

all right, maybe it doesn't speak so well that i'm i'm having to look for these opportunities but look at look at this chance that i have to have to go to the play in germany you had said uh kevin earlier that you just went to germany to play for fun for example which is an interesting thing to hear from someone who's nearing the end of his professional career so sort of what was what was the motivation that you that you felt i guess this is a question for all three of you as you, as you had so many distant travels along your careers. So my path is different than most of these guys. I blew my old wad my fourth year in college in front of 15 scouts and that was the end of my college career. So I had to fight back through Indy ball and after two good seasons into my third season I blew my own wad again.

So for me there's and I always thought that my story had like this fairytale ending. I always believed that till the very bitter end and so when it didn't happen like I woke up my last season with Long Island and I could barely shampoo my hair. I was having shoulder problems. So for me I was always I never wanted to take myself out of the American pool because once you kind of go over to some of the European leagues or maybe Australia you kind of almost take yourself out of the running to be in the big leagues that's not true of every league like Japan I know guys come back from there but some of the smaller ones that's kind of the I'm sure Kevin can kind of

speak on that but for me I was always trying to claw my way back and catch up to everyone else because once you're drafted your stamp of approval is basically on you or there but for me i was labeled from an early early point on that i was damaged goods maybe and then obviously with my elbow being literally damaged it was just tough for me to fight through and i wasn't willing to take any chance and play anywhere i could yeah i guess i'll talk about playing australia one i kind of uh my first year in independent ball after i got released um i had a real tough thing. I actually had a little bit of the yips, battled the yips for a little bit, and then ended up just deciding to retire. So I got a real job, ended up not liking it so much.

And I knew there were so many other opportunities to play baseball out there. So I was like, you know what, I'm still young. I know there's places to go and play. I kind of wanted to use an excuse to travel for free. So I said, why not take advantage of this? I mean, if someone's going to help me out to come over to Australia and see a beautiful country and get to play baseball, I feel like I'd be an idiot not to do it. So that's kind of how I thought about it going back into it.

And then it honestly taught me how to really love baseball again after the first time you get released stinks. I mean, I've been released a few times now. So not that you get used to it, but you're more comfortable with it. So just going over there was super fun. And I'm still thinking about if i want to do it like he went to germany there's so many places to play and i mean if you want to travel and there's an opportunity like i said why not yeah i think um dan playing any ball he's trying to get back in and dave when you went to australia i think that helped you get picked back up again um but for me it was i've been

released twice uh and i played any ball Ball. My brother played in Germany. He still plays there for nine years. So for me, it was go hang out with my brother, play baseball in Germany. I played in the Euro Cup. There's some really good talent in Europe, as I'm sure Dave knows, especially in Germany. They'll have a couple guys signed every year, a couple big ones, Max Kepler, Donald Lutz. It's a

really good experience. But for me, it was just fun. I was throwing probably 83, 84, but I was getting it done. Can I ask one more to one guy? Will you allow it? I think I also have the yips, the conference timing yips. I keep trying to end this conference on time, and it just never works. Okay, one more question. Okay, yeah, so I think I'll just ask Dan. All of you guys have played with big leaguers who are kind of on the tail end of their career, you know, former guys who've been there and are now on the way down,

and I'm curious about what the attitude of those players is. Because sometimes you'll hear that like at AAA guys are bitter, like they feel like they should be there and they're not getting the chance or, you know, they just feel like they've been overlooked or they had that big league lifestyle and now they don't. Do you find that the guys who are playing for the Ducks, for instance, like, do they have a positive attitude? Are they mentoring you? Are they doing it because they really still love the game? Or are they kind of feeling like, I should be there, I deserve to be there? I mean, just like anything else, it varies from person to person. I've been around some guys who took the time to not show up for VP like everyone else.

They kind of made it known that they were a little privileged, and that never feels great because you want to feel like you're rooting for them the same amount and you want to feel like you're all in the same boat. But most of the guys are pretty decent guys and I think a lot of the guys who probably feel that way, whether above everyone else, probably just wouldn't sign up for Indy Ball because it's a huge step down in glamour and all that, even the Atlantic League, which is the pinnacle. And I kind of joke that I helped Rich Hill get back to the big leagues

because I was on the Camden River Sharks, the last team that he pitched against when he punched out like 14 batters in like three innings or something. It was a bloodbath. But, you know, there's a lot of great guys that roll through and pass it on. They pass on the knowledge, and then there's other guys who kind of keep to themselves. It's, for me, like I said, kind of just this normal distribution of everything that you'd see from regular people.

All right. Well, we will wrap up there. Dan, Dave, Kevin, thank you guys very much. Thank you. Thank you. All right. Dan, you can clear the room. Thanks, everyone.

You can support the podcast on Patreon at patreon.com slash effectively wild. Five listeners who have recently pledged their support include Amy Petz, Nathan Daigie, Joe Mielenhausen, Arthur, and Michael Gates. Thanks to all of you. You can join our Facebook group at facebook.com slash groups slash effectivelywild. And you can rate and review and subscribe to Effectively Wild on iTunes. One of our guests in that second segment there, Dan Blewett, has his own baseball podcast, so I've linked to that in the show notes.

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