Effectively Wild: A FanGraphs Baseball Podcast - Effectively Wild Episode 1215: The Giant-Catcher Club

Episode Date: May 12, 2018

Ben Lindbergh and Jeff Sullivan banter about a new newsletter about baseball debuts, Shohei Ohtani’s latest exploits, the pitiful state of the AL Central, the even more pitiful performance of Orioles starter Chris Tillman, pitchers’ perplexing lack of respect for the Braves’ Ronald Acuña, Ichiro’s debut as a bench coach and future in baseball, and […]

Now the runner particularly fast on the pitch. Down low for ball one. A fastball just missed. Brault's not missing by a lot when he does. His effectively wild nature, I guess, right? Well, it's effective, it is. Ha, ha, ha. Let your love grow tall.

Let your love grow tall. Let your love grow tall. Tall as the grass in the meadow. Or the dunes on the shore. Like the billions in the city. Or your children on the floor Sullivan of Fangraphs. Hello. Hello. So we have kind of a wacky one today, I guess you could say. So let me explain how this came about and what's happening here. This is kind of a high concept podcast. But do you remember when we had Sam on a week ago and in the course of conversation, I mentioned that there are a lot of baseball players these days. Bullpens are big. It's hard

to keep track of all the new players. So I suggested that it would be a good idea for someone out there to keep track of each new player who debuts and write about it somewhere and that that would be a valuable service. So some listeners have already taken me up on that suggestion. And there is now a newsletter called This Week in Baseball Debuts that is organized by Effectively Wild listeners. It's at tinyletter.com slash this week in baseball debuts. I have signed up already. I will provide a link on the show page if you'd like to sign up. The content will also be posted on Banished to the Pen, our sister site. So anyway, this is happening now. And because of this happening, I know about a player who made his debut this week. And I got an email from one of the listeners who's working on this, Simon Gutierrez, and he pointed out that the Tigers have a new catcher, Grayson

Greiner, who made his debut on Sunday and got his first hit against Jeff Sullivan favorite Jacob Junis. And he is a 6'6 catcher, which stood out to me. You don't see a lot of 6'6 catchers. So I wanted to have Grayson on the show. And we are talking to Grayson later in this episode. But I also got the idea to talk to the other 6'6 catchers in baseball history. So there are only two. I am not counting the one who played in the 1884 Union Association, Anton Falsch. Couldn't get him on the phone? No, he was not available for one thing. But also the 1884 Union Association, technically Falsch. Couldn't get him on the phone. No, he was not available for one thing,

but also the 1884 Union Association, technically a major league, but not really a major league. I asked John Thorne about that and Bill James and Nate Silver have written about that before. Pretty weak league. So I'm going to count him out. Sorry to speak ill of the long dead, but the three real 6'6 catchers in Major League history are all joining us today. A very exclusive catching club, all assembled in the same place for the first time. We have completely cornered the market on 6'6 catchers. So we have Don Geely, who played for the Red Sox in the 50s and 60s. We have Pete Kogel, who played for the Brewers and the Phillies in the early 70s. And we have Grayson Greiner, the 2014 third round pick and one of the newest arrivals in the early 70s, and we have Grayson Greiner, the 2014 third round pick and one of the newest

arrivals in the major leagues. So we have an 83-year-old, a 70-year-old, and a 25-year-old, all united by the fact that they're 6'6 catchers who've played in the major leagues and had a lot of surgeries, but we'll get to that later. Yeah, I was just running a little search, and so the thing about 6'6 catchers, well, if there is a thing about 6'6 catchers, they're rare. That is only one inch taller than Joe Maurer, who has been a catcher. Matt Wieters, who continues to be a catcher, although increasingly with knee problems. Who is the shortest catcher of all time? Is it Tomas Talis?

I'll tell you what. I'm trying to find out right now. So I'm going to have the answer just as soon as this page loads, which, oh, it just did. Cub Stricker. Oh, he's definitely dead. He played until 1893. There's no way. So in terms of, oh boy, Cub Stricker died in 1937.

Yeah, there's no chance. Yeah, tied with Bill Finley, who also played in the 1880s. Most people were shorter in the 1880s. Anton Falsch was really standing out for his era. Getting that. Let's see. At least among... Oh, there's some names here.

There's Cub Stricker. There's Nap Shea. There's Tun Berger. Tun Yank Robinson. Nin Alexander. Tony Rigo. Jim Toy. Tony Rigo. Jim Toy. Cute little toy.

Let's just Herman Pitts. Kid Baldwin. Anyway, what I was getting at is that Tomas Talese is at least the shortest active catcher, I believe. He had at 5'8". I'm finding all these guys who are 67 inches and smaller, but so many of them are very dead and hilariously named. But Tomas Talese. So in another podcast, maybe we could have Grayson Greiner and Tomas Talese both on the

line to talk about how different are your experiences. Yeah. I don't know if being a short catcher is that interesting. That's almost the norm. We missed Doggy Miller. Doggy Miller, another turn of the century, last century short catcher. Yeah, good names here. Pete Weckbecker.

That's a fun one. Sure. Butch Rementer. I don't know where these names are coming from. How long do you think we could just read weird old baseball names on the podcast before people just actually tune out? Do we have data on that? Evidently pretty long. I think the Cespedes Family Barbecue guys basically did that in a podcast for years, and it worked for them.

Yogi Berra? I mean, come on. All right. So we will get to that in a little bit. We will ask about life as a tall catcher. But a couple things before we get there that I wanted to bring up. So, well, first of all, just your daily Shohei Otani update. He's hitting cleanup on Friday night. On Thursday, he hit another homer. It was a long homer to center. He also doubled. I don't know. Shohei

Otani is good. I don't know if we learned anything from this one. You wrote a whole article about his home run before that because he had hit a home run on an extreme inside pitch, which was supposed to be where his weak spot was and hasn't turned out to be the case. Anyway, this was an outside pitch, so he can hit basically any pitch out wherever he wants. He's really good. I wish he played more. I can tell you this. So, Shoei Ohtani doubled in home run against the Twins. It's a game the Angels beat the Twins. The

Orioles survived the latest Chris Tillman nightmare and beat the Royals, which means that the American League Central went 0-2 on Thursday evening after I wrote an article. I was going to ask about this. So, to maybe no one's surprise, the American League Central sucks. It sucks

real bad. Even the Indians have kind of sucked for the team that they're supposed to beat. The Indians will be better. Twins will be better. But at present, the American League Central sucks. It sucks real bad. Even the Indians have kind of sucked for the team that they're supposed to be. The Indians will be better. Twins will be better. But at present, the American League Central has a combined winning percentage under 400. Every other division in baseball is over 500. But the American League Central, of course, it's not fair to compare partial seasons to full seasons. But in case you wanted to do that, the lowest division winning percentage since the six-team division era, which started in 1994, is 437. And this year's American League Central is way, way below that. It's terrible.

It projects to be, of course, better than this. But there is the chance that we are looking at the worst division in the six-division era, 25 years. Because, you know, the Indians are likely to play better and the Twins are likely to play better. But the Tigers, Royals, White Sox socks they're probably just going to trade anyone good away provided they're veterans so boy it's just it's just so bad it's so bad it is really bad as you said in your chat on friday if the indians don't win this division by double digits that's i mean ultimately it doesn't matter how many games you win your division by, you still get to the first round of the playoffs, but they should win their division by many games. So, I mean, it kind of is the same thing that

happened last year, right, where they didn't pull away as expected for most of the season, and then they ended up winning by more than 10 games or at least 10 games. So that has to happen again. I don't see how it couldn't. Yeah, right. There's really no excuse. And I guess while we're talking about what happened on Thursday, referring to Chris Tillman, I don't know if Chris Tillman is going to get another start. The Orioles are terrible, but Chris Tillman is also, I don't want to kick a guy when he's

down, but at least relative to other major league pitchers, Chris Tillman has been terrible. And last year, he was also terrible. We have now, we're, what is this, superseding the Brian Mitchell watch with Chris Tillman watch. Chris Tillman. Brian Mitchell, we can't watch him anymore because he's not starting, so. Chris Tillman, here's what happened. Chris Tillman, a week ago, he lasted one inning. He allowed seven runs.

This start was better. He lasted an inning and a lasted one inning he allowed seven runs this start was better he lasted an inning in a third and he allowed six runs however he's walked four he struck out zero over the last two starts that's 13 runs in 2.2 innings Chris Tillman has an ERA that has four numbers in it at least the first number is a, but unfortunately the decimal doesn't come after that. It comes after the next number. It's 10.46. So I was looking at pitcher OPS plus all time, minimum 25 innings thrown. Chris Tillman has at least gotten at least 25 innings worth of outs over seven starts. So Chris Tillman has allowed an OPS plus of 198.

I will remind all listeners that 100 is league average. 198. And he is, if his season were to be over now, and I actually would not be surprised if it were, or if he at least went up on like the 60 day disabled list for being terrible and blame it on his shoulder or something. It is not the worst OPS plus of all time, but it's definitely on the list. So Chris Tillman at 198 198 he's tied for 11th worst for a single season there are 10 pitchers who have wound up at 200 or worse including as

recently as 2011 brian mattis at 200 ryan franklin 2011 wound up at 204 the actual worst is anthony vasquez do you remember anthony vasquez he's still around. He's in the minors. He had brain surgery. Yeah, his life and career were threatened, but he's back. And when he pitched for one of the worst Mariners teams I've ever seen, he had an OPS plus of 219. The thing that I will always remember about Anthony Vasquez that season, because I did watch every game, is he had 13 strikeouts, he had 13 walks and hit-by-pitches, and he had 13 home runs. And that was all in 29.1 innings. Anthony Vasquez, I thought as I was watching it, this is the worst pitcher I've ever seen. And it turns out, by at least one measure, it is the worst pitcher anyone has ever seen. Oh, goodness. Wow. Well, that is, Chris Tillman

was good not so long ago. That is a steep drop off. I guess you could say the same about Brian Mitchell, but things have headed downhill very quickly. Yeah, I don't know how you feel about this. When like if you're an Orioles fan or really a fan of anyone, Chris Tillman walked off home field. This is a game that the Orioles actually wound up beating the Royals 11-6, but Chris Tillman left in the second inning with his team losing. He walked off the field. I don't know if anyone booed him because I don't know if anyone was there,

but if you're Chris Tillman, he was the ace of that staff for years when the Orioles were at their weird overachieving peak, and he's just completely come apart. He was awful last year, and then we talked to Britt Jerole this spring. And she was like, oh, the Orioles and Tillman are just treating last year as a write-off. They think that he was just mechanically not sound. And he was hurt. And that was fine.

And he's going to be better. He's been so much worse. He's been a worse pitcher. And, I mean, when you look at it in retrospect, you think, well, yeah, he sucked last year. And now his velocity is down. Why would he be any better but later in the podcast you are you're going to make a reference to that a very famous article john updike wrote about ted williams and his uh final game you could write an article like that but the opposite about probably chris tillman's game from thursday night because just

like the stroll that he took from the mound to the dugout i can't imagine how many things were going through his head. Like his entire career could just be over now. In fact, yeah, it really might be over now. Chris Tillman was just placed on the 10-day disabled list with a lower back strain, which might actually be a lower back strain or might actually be a case of not really wanting this particular pitcher to pitch for this team right now. Well, speaking of someone else whose career may be over, Ichiro is evidently going to be the bench coach for the Mariners this weekend. And it doesn't sound like Ichiro knows what that entails exactly. Scott Service, the manager, is going to be away for his daughter's graduation. So regular bench coach Manny Akta is filling in as manager. And so

Ichiro is just going to be the bench coach because he's there. He is around. And he says, quote, I have no idea what I'll be doing. I might make out the lineup card. But other than that, I don't know. I like this just Ichiro being like a utility fill-in front office bench coach. Like he could just kind of do anything, I feel like. He's like technically what, a special assistant or something?

But he's on the field. He's like taking BP. He's staying in shape. He is, I guess, helping in a front office capacity, but also coaching and has now just advanced immediately to bench coach, which is like typically, I guess, the second most senior coaching position on a team just plug in itro wherever sure everyone likes itro i like this second act for him you know ever so often you'll see on twitter some screenshot of like uh whoever fills out the lineup card and has incredible like perfect handwriting you'll be like oh wow this is something that this guy that's like his thing that no one ever notices what do you think an itro lineup card would look

like i don't know maybe it would be incredibly precise. Like maybe he keeps his pen in a climate-controlled box or something like he does with his bat. His perfect penmanship. I wouldn't put it past him. Do you think maybe he has like a nickname for every single player on the team and that's just what he would write on the card?

Right. But when Munanori Kawasaki came over to the majors a few years ago his whole thing he wasn't so good but his whole thing is that he wanted to play with itro he desperately wanted to share a team with itro so he only wanted to play for the mariners and he wasn't very good so he sort of became like a mascot in seattle and in chicago and toronto he was on rosters and people loved him i don't know how much of that was because of some sort of weird racial stereotyping. But in any case, he was around and he was wonderful and people seemed to enjoy his company and he didn't play very much.

And at least in his Mariners days, I definitely remember him feeling more like a mascot who happened to be around the baseball players. And it's just funny now that Ichiro is sort of filling a similar kind of not so like lively. He's not doing karaoke in the clubhouse, I don't think, but he's kind of filling a similar sort of role. It's so weird. Like everyone has assumed, oh, Ichiro's basically just going to die

as soon as baseball gives up on him. So in a sense, the Mariners, yeah, the Mariners are like keeping him, they're sustaining him by letting him pretend he's still involved in baseball. No one wants to really make him go away just out of fear of what would happen. Well, I think baseball is just better generally with each row around. So if it's better for him, it's better for all of us.

So how long could he just do this? Could he just do this forever could he just do this forever for life right i mean many ex-players especially well-known players go on to just have some sort of you know honorary position in baseball for the rest of their lives and itro really loves baseball so i i could see it happening i guess if he kept doing this another five or six years, and then they put him on the roster one time when he's 50, then technically he will have achieved his goal. Yes, that's right. They should do it after he makes the Hall of Fame, though, so we can enjoy him being in the Hall of Fame and his induction and not have to postpone his induction by another five years. And then have him in the Hall of Fame again? What happens?

I don't know how this works. Oh, by the way, I mentioned Otani. I meant to ask you this. What would you say is the name of the team that Otani plays for? The full name with the city and everything. What? What are you asking? I know this sounds like some kind of gotcha question or something,

but what is the name of the Angels, the full name of the team? The Los Angeles Angels of Anaheim? That's what I thought. That's what everyone thinks. But evidently, they dropped the of Anaheim a while ago. So you still hear the jokes now and then where people are making fun of the fact that they have two cities in their name. Evidently, they don't anymore. They dropped

the of Anaheim prior to the 2016 season. So this is a while ago. They have not been the Los Angeles Angels of Anaheim, except in our bad jokes, they have only been the Los Angeles Angels for a while now. And Jack Moore wrote a good article about this for the Hardball Times last year, the history, the sordid history of Anaheim. And it goes back a ways and it's basically just Artie Moreno attempting to cash in on the Los Angeles media market, maybe not completely successfully, but trying to paint the team as a Los Angeles team, even though it's not actually in Los Angeles. So they had to keep of Anaheim in the name for a certain amount of time because there

was a contract with the city which had paid through the nose to keep the Angels and fund their ballpark and remodel it and everything. And so they had to have of Anaheim in the name or Anaheim in the name somewhere. So they just stuck it in at the end and the city sued and they were mad, but they lost that case. Anyway, they dropped the of Anaheim a while ago, and now they're just the Los Angeles Angels, even though they are technically not really a Los Angeles team. But anyway, we don't have to make the of Anaheim jokes anymore, I guess. Is there any argument that they've benefited in any way? It seems like not really a great argument. You can see what they're trying

to do. Obviously, you know, they want to associate themselves with an even larger media market. But even in that lawsuit where Anaheim was suing because of this name change and all the other cities in Orange County kind of co-signed in that suit because they wanted the name to be back where it was before. Even Los Angeles co-signed and said, they're not a Los Angeles team. You have to be inside the borders of Los Angeles to be a Los Angeles team. So I don't know that there's any really clear value here. I mean, when the Angels started as a franchise, they actually were in Los Angeles and they played in Dodger Stadium for a few seasons. So they were the Los Angeles Angels at that time in name, but also legitimately.

And now they are not. So I don't think anyone's really fooled by this. I don't think there are a whole lot of Los Angeles residents who are driving out there because they're confused about whether they should support this team or not. So I don't know. But anyway, it no longer has the very silly multiple cities in the name. Could they call themselves the New York Angels? Like if they wanted to? If they're not in Los Angeles and you can call themselves Los Angeles,

why stop there? Why not be like the America's Angels or like the globe? Just why belong? So America's Angels or like the globe, just why belong? If you're going to violate like regional rules, I don't know how to refer to these, but why stop there? Yeah, I don't know. I mean, I guess there's a benefit to having the locals come out to support the team and you want to associate the team with the locals in some way, but they are actively fighting against that with changing the name to Los Angeles. So if they're going to do that, then sure, might as well just make them the Globes team, the international angels of everywhere. Then maybe everyone will watch the Angels.

Yeah. If you name yourself after the world, then you are the world's baseball team. world, then you are the world's baseball team. I don't know, but now I'm just looking at the Angels franchise history page on Baseball Reference, and all I've noticed is that John Lackey has the whitest teeth in baseball. Well, John Lackey got new teeth, didn't he? I think there was some speculation because his teeth were not the best before, and now they are looking suspiciously pretty nice and gleaming. What a weird thing to know about people. I don't know.

Anyway. You throw baseballs pretty accurately at 92 miles per hour, so we know that you have new teeth. Yeah. That's ridiculous. I guess the Marlins claimed that they're a British Virgin Islands team, right? But that's for tax purposes, not if they were going to pick somewhere to get more fans,

they probably would not have picked the British Virgin Islands. Not a whole lot of people there that's actually the trouble is that that's where their entire fan base is they just can't tap into it yeah that's right someone uh someone did ask in in my chat today pointed out that the marlins have already played four home games with paid attendance under 6 000 and uh that's a lot no one has done that since the 2004 montreal expo so i believe had 19 such home games. Of course, the Expos then left Montreal because there was no support for a variety of reasons. But yeah, I don't think anyone's surprised that the Marlins aren't drawing anyone. Why would anyone go?

They suck and they're not interesting either. But still, really, they're mining the depths of people not wanting to pay money to see them. Yeah. Oh, you also mentioned in your chat, someone asked about what pitchers could do to counter Ronald Acuna. And you pointed out that they could just not throw him a bunch of meatballs, which is what they've been doing. Which is not to say that Acuna is not great and that he hasn't been great. He has, but it seems as if pitchers have not realized that. So quoting

Jeff Sullivan here, so far 337 players have seen at least 200 pitches. Acuna has baseball's second highest rate of pitches seen that were middle middle. He's up there in between Alex Blandino and Gerard Dyson, which is interesting. I get that pitchers don't always trust the scouting reports or like when a highly touted rookie comes up, especially one as young as Acuna, they kind of want to see it for themselves. And you look at his minor league stats and you know that he's good and you probably shouldn't throw him the same pitches that you would throw Alex Blandino. But it seems like pitchers just need to figure that out for themselves by getting punished by Acuna personally. And I guess that's what happened.

I don't know historically what the rate is as far as like rookies and zone rate and whether there's sort of a standard zone rate that all rookies see. I remember early in like Bryce Harper's career, even he was seeing a lot of pitches in the middle of the plate, even though he was Bryce Harper and he was on Sports Illustrated covers when he was 16 it seems like no one trusts it you have to like earn it in the majors to get the respect of pitchers to throw pitches outside the strike zone yeah it's bizarre if you look at Acuna right now and like where he's hit the ball hardest of course it's the pitches right over the middle of the plate he's seen a lot of them he's seeing way too many pitches over the middle of the plate and I just don't understand it but of course it'll it'll settle itself down over time he probably just hasn't faced very good

pitchers all right well you know i'm kind of proud of the extent to which we have not talked about the yankees and the red socks this year not that we're actively avoiding talking about them or anything they're actually an interesting baseball story even aside from just catering to the east coast bias and the large media markets and everything. But we haven't really given them their due, I suppose. Both of these teams have had 17-2 stretches, like right after one another. The Yankees just coming off theirs, and they've done it against some of the best teams in the league, too. These are just two really impressive teams. And I think we knew coming into the season that this would be the division where we were most likely to get an exciting

pennant race. And that is shaping up. And we're running into a situation here where maybe we'll see a team that is really good winning a wild card, which typically has not happened. I think there was an A's team that didn't win its division, even though it had 100 wins. But it's pretty rare in this day and age for a team that wins that many games not to win its division. And that seems to be happening here. And then you might end up with a case where the wildcard game will be a mismatch between one team that's really good and one team that's not so good. Anyway, these teams are, I guess we already knew that they were good. I don't know that either one has really made me think

that they're way better than I thought they were in March, but the pennant race has lived up to its billing so far, I guess. Do you have a horse in this race or a favorite even at this point? No, but unsolicited, I did get text messages yesterday from a baseball inside person and they just say quote yankees are so good it feels like it's them big gap rest of the sport if you did an overall organizational ranking and we talked about this i think before the year it was kind of like the yankees and the dodgers in terms of teams with big resources great talent

and then a good farm system and the dodgers have taken a step back obviously they've lost cory seager etc and the yankees have not taken a step back they've taken steps forward they are great they are going to remain great I know people have made the argument that the Yankees are this is a likable version of the Yankees and that was true last year now it is not true because it can't be by definition you cannot have more than a month of a likable Yankees team so uh yeah they're great they're a juggernaut again I'm gonna not going to stop. Yeah. I mean, right. You and that baseball person are talking about kind of how they're positioned for the present and the future, right?

And just top to bottom and outlook long-term. I mean, in terms of best baseball teams in 2018, I don't know that they are the best team or that if they are, there's much of a separation there. I'm probably just sticking with the Astros for now still. But I don't even know that there's that huge a gap between the Yankees and the Red Sox. But Yankees have hit really well, which is not surprising. I guess the surprising thing is how well they've pitched, or at least mildly surprising, I suppose.

Again, it's not surprising that either of these teams is good. And the Red Sox have, I think, been baseball's best slugging team or the AL's best at least. And that is obviously different from last year, but also not unexpected because they had good players. So I don't know. Is there a way in which either of them has done something that we didn't expect them to do? Or is it just that they are both really good teams that are maybe playing slightly better than we expected them to both play no both really good okay well we'll probably give them more air time later in the year i guess if this pennant race continues but it's been enjoyable certainly

if you are a yankees red sox fan and probably everyone else who hates both of these teams thinks it's a nightmare but uh this is where we are. Can you think of another pitcher before who's had carpal tunnel syndrome? That's a thing, right? Who's got David Price with symptoms of what I was worried might be thoracic outlet syndrome, but no, carpal tunnel, which is something that I will forever associate with Dilbert. Well, I know that Joel Zumaia had something like carppal Tunnel. I don't know whether it was. I think it was, right? Because he either blamed it on or it was blamed on Guitar Hero, right? Playing lots of Guitar Hero. And so now people are probably silly blaming David Price's Carpal Tunnel on Fortnite. I don't know whether there's any truth to that, but that's the only one that

comes to mind, Joel Zumaia. and he had other injury problems as well. So I can ask you, what is Fortnite? Fortnite is an online multiplayer game. It's kind of part of this Battle Royale game trend, which is just sweeping the video game world, and it is the latest and greatest and most popular of those games so it is kind of taking over everywhere right now is it like a shooty shoot kind of game yep what makes it better what what makes it stand out from every other game that is that well it's uh free to play so that's that's part of it i think is that just anyone can access it and it's on all platforms including mobile games and it's kind of fast-paced and addictive and uh i don't know

everyone loves it i haven't personally played a whole lot of fortnight but i can see why uh it's it's caught on so this is the new i guess chicken and beer controversy of the Red Sox clubhouses is now Fortnite. But so how does it make money? Like microtransactions and selling things in games to people who already love the game. Oh, that's clever. They get you in the door and then you pay for other stuff. Yeah, I understand. It's like outdoor stuff.

Oh, you like being outdoors? Well, now you need this jacket. Now's like outdoor stuff. Oh, you like being outdoors? Well, now you need this jacket. Now you need these boots. You want to be more outdoors? Now you need these gloves. That's how they suck you in. Sure, I guess. It's the opposite of outdoor stuff in the other sense in that you never go outdoors. Well, yeah, it's the opposite, but it's the same. You want to get lost in an environment that does not resemble the one that you live in your day-to-day life. Yes, that's right. All right, so let's take a quick break and we'll be back to talk to a trio of average height, but in current company, even though I can't see them, I feel like I am craning my neck

up at everyone who is joining me right now. Not only Jeff, who is a tall person, but also three very tall catchers. First is Grayson Greiner, who just made his major league debut with the Detroit Tigers. Grayson. Hey, how's it going? Doing well. Grayson is the most recent of the 6'6 Catchers Club. And the very first member is also joining us, Don Geely, who played for the Boston Red Sox from 1959 to 1962. Hey, Don, how are you? Just fine, thank you. Thank you for letting me be part of this. Yeah, well, I'm glad to bring you guys together. In addition to the middle member of the 6'6 Catchers Club, Pete Kogel, who played for the Milwaukee Brewers and the Philadelphia Phillies from 1970 to 1972.

Hello, Pete. Thank you. Thank you for having me on. So I guess first I'll ask, because baseball listed heights are not always accurate, is any of you actually 6'5 or 6'7 just passing for 6'6? Anyone want to come clean, get anything off their chest? Or are you all actually 6'7", just passing for 6'6"? Anyone want to come clean, get anything off their chest? Or are you all actually 6'6"? Well, I started out 6'6", but it's going down a little bit now. 83 years old will kind of do that for you.

I was actually 6'6 1⁄2". Uh-huh. Okay. Well, I'm not anymore. Right. Yeah. too many hip replacements and so forth grayson yeah i think i think i'm right at right at six six okay maybe like maybe like an eighth of an inch under six six but i'm pretty sure i'm right right about it yeah okay well we'll count that and grayson, I wanted to ask you this. You made your

major league debut against the Royals and your friend and fellow former Gamecock, Whit Merrifield was playing against you and he stole three bases against you in your first game. Is there not some kind of unwritten rule against that between friends? Is that like rookie hazing? Can't you go easy on the rookie in his first game? No, he didn't take it easy on me at all. I believe he led the American League in stolen bases last year. Yes. I don't really think he cares who's behind the plate.

That's part of his game, and he's really good at it. I didn't take it personal or anything. He did a good job and got three bags. Yeah. Well, congratulations on making it. And I'm curious, have you been hearing your whole career? You know, there have been two previous 6'6 catchers, or this is a very uncommon thing. Have you been dealing with that for a while now?

I have. I honestly had no idea that the previous, you know, two catchers, Don and Pete, I had no idea there were only two 6'6 catchers before. But yeah, since I was a little kid, I've been a catcher, and I had no idea I was going to grow up to be 6'6. I saw him live with the position at a young age. My mantra has always been,

I'm going to keep catching until somebody tells me I can't anymore. I've stuck with it, and I've been able to do it. So, yeah, I hear all the time, you know, he's too tall to catch. He won't be able to catch at a high level. And that's kind of my motivation to try and prove to people that, you know, I can catch at 6'6". Yeah, and Don, since you were the first, did you hear that even more? I know that you played multiple positions,

so maybe you weren't playing catcher at such an early age like Grayson was, but were there have a couple of knee operations during the season of the 10 years that I played. It does take a little bit away from you as you get older, like myself, but I wouldn't change anything at all. I actually did a lot of catching in AAA and the major leagues and so forth. I'm sure it had a lot to do with the injuries because I've had five hip replacements on my right hip and one on my left. And I had back surgery last summer. So a lot of a lot of surgery. Yeah. Catching takes a toll on everyone. But I

guess particularly if you're that height, it must be an extra strain on you, I would think. Yeah, I would think so too, yeah. Did those injuries just occur kind of after your career as you got older, or were they happening as you were playing still too? No, actually it was after my first hip surgery was my late 40s. You know, I got to the point where I just couldn't sleep. I couldn't get comfortable at all. And they found out that they had to take a bone graft from my femur and make a new place for the cup to go into the bone. They had to redo all of that. And that's why I've had five on that side.

But it's crazy. I was curious, being tall catchers, obviously that's sort of the theme of this. That's crazy. And I know that now, more recently, there's been a lot of pitching down in the zone. Now, granted, this is an era where the fastballs are starting to rise. But you look at a tall catcher like Joe Maurer or Matt Wieters, and what you see is that they're a lot more successful catching higher pitches than low ones. They have some difficulty catching balls that are down in the zone. So how do you sort of prepare for cleanly catching a low pitch? How do you sort of prepare for cleanly catching a low pitch? Because obviously, just because of who you are and your stature, it is a lot simpler to catch something that's up by your chest or your shoulders. Well, Grayson, you want to go ahead?

Yeah. I mean, the main thing for me is trying to give a low target from the beginning. It's a lot easier to work from the ground up than it is to work from up to the ground. The ball is coming in at such a steep angle at such a high velocity that if you try and stick a pitch with your glove already going towards the ground, the ball is just going to take you. So the main thing for me is trying to get my eyes low and trying to get my glove as close to the ground as possible with a low target. And then if it's up, it's much easier to stick that pitch up near my eyes than it is to try and work towards the ground so the main thing is like you said it is a much more difficult pitch for us to catch for any catcher to catch i feel like but especially a bigger catcher just because our eyes are further from that low pitch but um like i said the main thing is trying to get low and give a nice low target and that makes it a little bit easier for us. That's all very true, and on top of that, fortunately, my first two, three years in the minor leagues for the Red Sox, I had managers that had been catchers, so that certainly helped me out quite a bit,

at least to become a little more proficient. But no matter how good a catcher you are, you better be able to hit too. Grayson, I'm sure I'm not telling you anything you don't know here, but your stats for receiving and blocking are really great. According to Baseball Perspectives last year, you were third among double A catchers in framing runs and first in blocking runs, more than 25 runs above average when you combine both of those things. So whatever you're doing, it's working pretty well. So I wanted to ask about your origin stories as catchers. Don, were you big before you were a catcher or were you a catcher before you

were big? I think the first part would be me. I was always the biggest guy on the team, no matter what level it was. And, you know, you just adjust and stay with it. It'll get easier a little bit at a time. Yeah, your nickname was Bear, right? So I guess you don't get that if you're a small person, typically. That's true, yeah. That was the first day in the minor leagues when I signed in 55. And I joined the San Jose Red Sox, which was only about 20 miles from my home. And it was easy. It was fairly easy. We were all learning at that time, even though we had played a couple of years. And Grayson, I know you were always a catcher too, but Pete, you didn't really grow into the position.

You grew and then found the position. I was big before that. Okay. Yeah, I was big before that. In fact, I played third base for a couple of years. I played all three outfield positions. I played first base. I played a lot of different positions, actually.

Yeah. I played all the other positions first, and then I became a catcher later on in my career. And I ended up catching. In fact, I had the starting job with the Phillies in 1972. Yeah. I won the job in spring training, and I ended up in the hospital with double pneumonia. And that's when Bob Boone took over.

And, of course, that's history now, but I had a good spring. Larry Bo came in and told me I had the job, so I was a little excited, but I was hurting. What was the original impetus for your playing catcher for the first time? What were the circumstances? Well, I was out in Arizona. They had like an instructional league, and a bunch of us were out there. We were young, and we were messing around. We were throwing from behind home plate to second base, and I had a good arm. And some of the coaches saw it, and they asked me if I ever was a catcher. I said, maybe a couple of games in high school, but that's about it. And they said, well, you know, you get to the major leagues a lot quicker if you can catch

and with your power and everything, you know, it might be a good chance. So I said, well, we'll try it. So I tried. And Don, eventually you started playing first base and you were still catching at the time, but you would kind of go between them as many catchers have. Was that health related? Was it just an area of team need? How did that end up happening? Well, it was health related because, you know, and I think Grayson probably agree with this. Catchers definitely have the chance of injury a heck of a lot. It's a lot larger for a catcher than anybody else out there on the field. And, you know, in my own case, I can speak for that. I had two knee operations around the time that I was playing. And when I retired, I had to have a total knee replacement. That's what brought me to first base. It was a big change, but the bat is the same

no matter what position you're playing. So get out there, get the bat and go to work. So Don and Pete, you mentioned how hard catching can be on you physically, especially on your lower body. I'm sure that equipment has evolved in the years since the 50s and 60s and 70s. Grayson, I assume that you're using some sort of knee savers or something. Are there things that you use to kind of reduce that strain? Actually, no. I've never been a guy that uses knee savers. I just wear the standard equipment.

All Star, the brand of gear I use, they make me some custom order shin guards that are longer than their basic shin guards so they cover more of my legs so that's really the only uh equipment adjustment that i make i just i use knee savers at a really young age and i realized that it's hard enough to sit low without knee savers and with knee savers it's nearly impossible to sit as low as i want to sit so i kind of stopped using those at a young age and i've had a couple minor knee surgeries as well, but not the major. So it's not a major thing. I was curious.

So more recently, this is really subtle. It's kind of in the weeds. But catcher's interference calls have quietly been on the rise. It's not all because of Jacoby Ellsbury, although that is part of it. But I was wondering, and I guess, Don, you can answer this first, and then Grayson, you can go second. I was wondering, and I guess, Don, you can answer this first, and then Grayson, you can go second. But I was wondering what the awareness is as a catcher of a potential catcher's interference. And of course, being taller, then you sort of have a longer reach.

You might be sort of more in the way. So how aware are you as a catcher of the possibility of a catcher's interference, of interfering with the bat? And maybe do batters just have longer swings now are they standing more back in the box or or whether that's making too much of a uh of a very small trend i'll bet you in the 10 years i played and caught most of that time never had an interference call you know you after so many years of catching whether you're in a crouch or a half a crouch or whatever you become so proficient so proficient that that was never a problem for myself or for other catchers that I saw play. I just said, you know, throw my glove out there and let's go. Yeah, I mean, I've been catching since I was probably seven or eight,

and I could maybe count on one hand the amount of catcher's interferences I've had. I had one next year in AAA. It shocked me so much. Do you guys feel like you just get hit by more stuff because there's more of you? Foul tips or just more impacts, just more surface area there? Yeah, it's definitely possible. Like you said, there's just more surface area, more areas for us to get hit. We've got longer limbs and bigger torsos and stuff.

So that could have something to do with it. I used to get a lot of foul balls, I'll tell you that. It's kind of inevitable to, you know, it comes down and hits the plate or something, comes right back up into your groin or your legs or your thighs. My legs are always black and blue during the course of the summer. I'm curious, Don, when you were playing, I guess you had to block the plate at times, and there were collisions that you had to deal with that maybe Grayson fortunately doesn't since they changed the rules. In that sense, was it an asset to be big and have base runners maybe wary of crashing into you? I think it definitely, definitely was an advantage

back in the dark ages when I was playing. Not everybody wanted to take you on, you know, particularly if you've already got the ball and it isn't going to be a boom, boom, catch the ball or knock it down or whatever. So, and it didn't matter to me what size the runner coming in from third was or any of that. So just, again, throw your glove out there and play the game that you signed to play. Grayson, obviously you're in the majors now, and we're playing with the seven day concussion disabled list. And there is a lot of attention being placed on brain health and sustaining that as much as possible. But I was curious to know sort of how this has evolved as a catcher. Like Don, when you were catching for, I think you said 10 years,

what was your understanding of what was going on? Like a foul tip that gets you in the mask or maybe a backswing that gets you in the head. What was the protocol if there was any protocol in the event of, you know, you're seeing stars or there are birds going around your head. You get your bell rung, I think is the hockey term. So how has that changed over the 50, 60 years?

Well, it's changed a lot. And again, I'll say it, you know, in the dark ages of baseball, because's changed a lot. And again, I'll say it, you know, in the dark ages of baseball, because that's a long time ago now, 55 years or so. The rules are different. The players are different. They're in better shape, I think, today than, and of course, if you're making a few million a year, you're going to get involved a heck of a lot more than back in 1955, say. But like I mentioned, I wouldn't change anything that I did compared to today. We never heard anything about any of that when I was playing.

I got a lot of foul balls straight back into the mask, you know, and that kind of brings you back a little bit. But nothing serious, you know, and that kind of brings you down a little bit, but nothing serious, you know, we just kept playing. Of course, back then we kept playing with broken fingers and everything else, you know. Right. The money wasn't so great that you could afford not to. No, not at all.

Grayson, are you using any of the newer designs of helmet that are supposed to minimize the damage? Yeah, I was in, um, when I was in Abel in Lakeland in 2015, I, uh, I was catching and a guy's backswing. I was at the time I was using the two piece mask, the backwards skullcap and the mask. And I, I took a guy's backswing, his bat hit me in like the left side of my head. And I kind of, you know, was seeing stars like you mentioned and went through the concussion protocol. That. And I kind of, you know, was seeing stars, like you mentioned, and went through the concussion protocol. That first night I was pretty doozy,

so they put me on the seven-day DL for concussion. But after a couple days, it all went away. But since that day, I switched to the one-piece hockey mask, and I've really enjoyed using that. It's easier. You know, foul tips, I don't feel the shock near as much. And it's just been a better move, I feel like, to go to that hockey-style mask. It's definitely a little heavier, a little bulkier, but I feel like keeping your head and your brain safe kind of outweighs the negative effects of it being a little heavier. Yeah. And so we asked you about receiving and

whether there are any challenges there. What about, say, blocking and throwing where you have to get down in the dirt and throwing? You know, you have to worry about your footwork and you've just got big legs that you have to put into position. So is there a greater emphasis on positioning and, you know, trying to get down more quickly than other guys maybe who are already starting closer to the ground Grayson I guess you could take that first yeah I mean I just I feel like you as a bigger guy you kind of got to work on your agility and the quickness and keep your body in shape just so you can get to those balls in the dirt and naturally a a smaller catcher's you know transfer and footwork is going to be a little quicker than ours.

So it's just something you really have to work on, having long limbs, having long legs, long arms, all that stuff. You know, fortunately for blocking, we kind of have, like you said, on south hips, we have a little bigger surface area. So as long as I kick left or right, sometimes they'll catch me in the arm and save a wild pitch or a pass ball. So in that sense, it's a good thing. the arm and save a wild pitch or a pass ball. So in that sense, it's a good thing. But like you said, you kind of really got to focus on your agility and keeping your body in shape. And you don't want to feel too sluggish back there because you got to be quick on those balls in the dirt. And when you see the runner taking off, you really got to have precise footwork and precise transfer to get the ball to second. Footwork is important, but I was fairly agile.

In fact, I used to get down like, what's his name, the old catcher for... Tony Pena? Tony Pena, yeah. I used to get down like him. In fact, the umpires in the major leagues, they told me, for such a big guy, give them a good look at the pitches, you know. They always told me that. So I was pretty loose, pretty agile, you know. If you were down that low, was it then difficult to spring up and if there was a stolen base attempt, was that a tough movement to make? Well, if there was a chance for a stolen base,

I wouldn't get down in that position. I would just get as low as I possibly could, you know. But if I knew the guy might be running, I want to have a shot, too, you know, get a chance to throw him out, you know. The one thing that I always did, I did a lot of stretching. And to this day, I still do it, even after all the surgeries that I've had. If I don't do it, I'm very stiff. Yeah. I like to play golf. I used to play four or five times a week.

But now if I can go once or twice a week, I still enjoy that, you know, but it's tough getting around anymore. But that was a big thing, you know, for me. And I'm sure for a lot of people, catchers, you know, or even regular play, regular infield positions and so forth. You got to keep stretching. Now, Grayson, obviously, you only just reached the majors, but you do through your minor league record.

It's hardly the most important thing, the most important aspect of your game, but you have one single stolen base. You stole it off Rodolfo Martinez back in 2016. I was curious, one, how well you remember the circumstances of that stolen base, but also, two, just what it's like. So, Stephen, I'm afraid I don't know how to pronounce the last name, whether it's Laird or Lerud, but Stephen Lerud, let's call him, was the opposing catcher in that game, and then you stole a base against him. I was curious the situation, a catcher stealing against another catcher. I do remember it because I know that I'm one for one career in stolen pieces. It was a first and third play, and I got the steal sign,

and my job was to get in a rundown to try and get the man from third to score. And the opposing team had a play on where they weren't going to throw it, so I stopped halfway, thought he wasn't going to throw it, and just continued on to second. So I got a little bit of a free stolen base there. When I was a little lighter, I used to be a little faster. I stole a couple bases in college and high school, but since I got the pro ball, I bulked up a little bit,

and I lost some speed. So that's not really part of my game right now. It'll come, though. It'll come, though. It'll come. Yeah. Don, I guess you never got that stolen base, Don. I don't know. You know, the injuries that catchers get, I think it's more of a concern these days in baseball as compared to, again, 50, 60 years ago. That is, if you're hurting, fine, play through it.

And unless it's such a serious thing that you can't do it. But everybody, and I think Grayson would agree with me, you've got to play hurt at times. agree with me. You got to play hurt at times. And I think it helps us, I think, even though it might look like it's a little bit rough, but I think it helps. So I know that Pete said that he got so low that umpires told him that he gave them a clear view of the ball. But I wanted to ask if either of you, Don or Grayson, ever ran into a tall catcher, short umpire problem where the umpire has issues seeing over your shoulder maybe or has to stand up taller than he normally would? Is that umpire positioning an issue ever, Grayson? Not really. Every rare case, there'll be a guy that says, you know, can you try and get a little lower on the inside pitch?

He's having a hard time seeing over me. But I feel like every time I go out there in the first inning and I haven't worked with a guy before, they always comment on my height and ask how tall I am. You know, I hear it from the new umpires just about every time I go out there. But I always, every time I introduce myself, I always say, you know, if there's anything you need me to do, let me know and I'll work on it. Because one of our main goals is to make sure that guy can do his job properly.

And that's one of the main reasons I try to give a really low target so he can see fine. Yeah. Is that similar for you, Don? Because, I mean, when you were playing, people were generally smaller than they are today and players were generally smaller. So you were even more of an outlier at that time. Yeah, that is true. And, you know, but I really don't feel that my size was a deterrent. It was just came natural as to what you do. By the time you get to the big leagues, well, by the time I got to the big leagues, I was 20, what, 22, 23. By the time I got to the big leagues, I was 22, 23. So I've caught for a long time.

And it just is a natural thing. And you can't make too much of it. By the time you do get to the big leagues, you should be able to handle a heck of a lot more than kids that are just starting out. Of course, you are supposed to be able to play defense. You're supposed to be able to hit but one of the primary responsibilities to catchers have so many responsibilities you have very hard jobs but one of the things that you have to do is of course help the pitcher walk through how to attack the opposing hitters so once more Grayson you are playing in the era of so much information there is information overload I'm sure that you hear about this every single day when you're behind the plate, then you're going to have a scattering report

on probably every single hitter in the opposing lineup. Maybe you're looking at heat maps, all kinds of data that maybe you use, maybe you don't. But I was curious again over the 50 or 60 years and Don, when you were preparing to be the catcher, catching the starting pitcher, going up against any average lineup, What was the level of preparation that you would put into getting ready for that game versus Grayson now? How do you find that you're doing things in 2018? Too much can be made of how to play the game. And sure, scouting reports are helpful, but they're not everything. They're not everything whatsoever, at least in my case. They're not everything whatsoever, at least in my case.

They'd laugh at you talking about and quoting how to play the game, how to play your position and things like that. Here's a ball, here's a bat, here's a glove. Go out there and do it. And obviously, Grayson has been doing very, very well. And congratulations on getting to the major leagues, Grayson. Thank you. You know, like you said, it's definitely a different age. Coming up through college and through the minor leagues,

the amount of scouting is good. They give you some information, but I've caught two games now in the big leagues, and it's just the amount of information they give us is incredible. A lot of it is helpful, and the main thing I need to learn to get better is taking that information and applying it to the game. I've always been a kind of how Don is. I've always been an old school kind of mind when it comes to baseball. I'm trying to adapt to all the analytics and all the data that they throw our way. But, you know, the main thing for me is trusting my instincts behind the plate. i've been catching a long time and just been learning how to call games properly but uh it's kind of you gotta learn how to balance

your instincts and balance the scouting reports because uh like don said the scouting reports are good and all but they can only take you so far they're not everything so the main thing is is balancing that and being able to remember all that information that we use to prepare ourselves for the game. Sort of related to the idea of scattering reports, of course, one of the things that you do as a catcher is to read the hitter, read his approach, read his swings, even during and at bat and during a game. So I was curious, Grayson, I don't know if this is tapping too much into your own private

information. I don't want you spilling any secrets. But for both of you, I guess, what would be tells? What would be something that a hitter is doing that might indicate to you that, oh, this guy is not expecting a fastball or this guy is going to swing right over a breaking pitch? What are little giveaways that you notice from your position, certainly, that you wouldn't necessarily be able to tell on TV? I would say mainly where a guy sets up in the box. If a guy stands

in the same spot in the at-bat and then with two strikes he moves up a couple inches, that can maybe tell you, oh, this guy might be looking to turn off speed pitch. Or if he backs off the plate a little bit because we've been pounding him inside, he's looking to get to that inside pitch. Just stuff like that is things that we can look for behind the plate that could maybe tell us what the batters might be thinking. So it's kind of a chess game you play back that we can look for behind the plate that could maybe tell us what the batters might be thinking. So it's kind of a chess game you play back there, and you look for little tells like that that might help you call the right pitch. I agree with you completely, and it's not really that tough, but the box is there, and

wherever you go, the catcher can see it very well. He's closer to it than the hitter. It definitely helps to have that batter's box there. And you remember what he's been doing, where he's been standing through the game. And you just apply it and go out and make it happen. It sounds simple, but it really isn't. It's the same game as when we were 12 years old. It's the same game.

Now, I guess, Don, when you were playing, one of the things we've seen even over just the past 10, 15 years is fastballs are incredibly fast. Everybody throws 97 now. And those pitchers would have been few and far between, Don, back in your career prime. So I guess, Grayson, as you, obviously, you have developed, you've climbed the ladder coming out of high school, college, the minors, the majors. And at every single stop, I imagine pitchers are only throwing harder and harder with sharper stuff. So

how much more difficult have you found it just to actually be able to catch and catch cleanly? Because now pitchers are just throwing stuff that they've never been throwing before. Like the quality of stuff now is such that there's talk about even like lowering or moving back the mound on the fringes. So just how much more difficult is it to catch cleanly relative to even when you were starting in college? I mean, yes. Obviously, the harder it got to show the tougher the stuff is, the harder for them to catch well. Like we talked about with receiving earlier, if a guy paints 98 down in the bottom of the zone, it's going to be very difficult to catch that ball

and hold it right there for the umpire to call it a strike. So you've just got to really amp up your focus every pitch, especially with men on base, and you call it breaking ball. You've got to be ready for that thing in the dirt to be able to block it. Some guys are throwing sliders and split fingers in the 90, 92 miles an hour. So it's definitely tough. But the main thing is you got to be focused every pitch and anticipate what could happen if this guy's going to throw a ball in the dirt, if he's going to throw a fastball wild. So just be ready for the worst. And hopefully they hit their spot and that makes it a little bit easier on us. Was there someone who was particularly tough for you to catch, Don, or the hardest thrower you ever caught?

You know, probably the very hardest was the guy that tried to throw harder than he's capable of on a consistent basis. But you do it just out of reflex because you've been doing it for years. So you can overthink it. And I saw a lot of guys who did that. They were good 250 hitters, but could have been 290. And they're playing head games with themselves. And Pete, you were teammates with Steve Carlton. Was he the hardest thrower you played with? Well, he was one of them. Torchell was another one that I caught.

But there was guys that I faced, like Sam McDowell and quite a few others. Nolan Ryan, I faced in spring training, and the manager said, just stand as far back in the box And as away from the plate as you can Because he was wild when he was young But he was through very very hard

And I faced him a couple of times But these guys today I mean just about everyone Especially guys coming in from the bullpen They all throw 95 to 100 It's amazing I wanted to ask you about that 72 team, because, of course, that was the year that Carlton had

one of the greatest pitching seasons ever. I guess you didn't get to catch him, I guess, at least in games. Just in spring training. But he would not start a game unless I was out there to warm him up before the game. Oh, really? Interesting. Yeah, it was kind of a... Is it like a good luck charm?

He was secrecy that he had. Yeah, yeah. Huh. And, you know, I'd work out before. Back then, we took infield and outfield, and I threw from the outfield, I threw from third base, and I threw from behind the plate, catching and so forth. And we took batting practice, and then I went in and took a shower, changed my uniform, and got out there in time for him to warm up. Huh. And he I went in and took a shower, changed my uniform, and got out there in time

for him to warm up. And he would wait for me. If I was a couple of minutes late, he would just wait. He wouldn't let anybody else do it. We were pretty good friends, Steve and I. That's how that tradition started, just because you were pals? Or was there like a specific time when you caught him to warm up and he was great and he said, okay, we're doing this every time now? Yeah, well, I caught him a couple of times in spring training and he liked the way I caught. And in fact, he and Wayne Twitchell was another guy and Wayne was tough to catch. Nobody wanted to catch him because he threw a very, very heavy ball and his ball would sink and move and so forth and he threw hard. But I caught Wayne for many years in the minor leagues. You know, he just liked the way I caught and received the ball.

I gave him a good target, you know. So why didn't you end up catching him in regular season games? Because we had Tim McCarver and John Bateman, two veterans. Tim McCarver and John Bateman, two veterans. And I caught a couple of games, a few games, but I never really got the shot that I should have had because those guys were way over the hill. They were big-time names, you know. Right. And what was Carlton like to catch when you did catch him? Well, for me, I've caught him enough where I pretty much knew exactly

what was going to happen. And he had great stuff. In fact, that year he won 27 games and he won 54 as a team. Yeah, 59 it looks like, but yeah. Yeah. But I pretty much knew exactly what his ball was going to do pretty much all the time. What was that like when you're a sixth-place team that's winning 59 games, and yet when this one guy is on the mound, you're as good as any team in baseball? What's just the mindset like on those days? You know that you have a great shot to win, and the rest of the time, you know you're in trouble. Ben, you know, on days that he would pitch, like on, say, a Sunday or something, he'd go out, 10 o'clock, we're out on the field, and we're going through our routine batting

practice and field and throwing and so forth. And the stands were full already, 50,000 people, 55,000 people, whatever it was. And they would be out there at that time to watch him pitch that day. It was amazing. Yeah, 346 in the third innings he pitched that year. Oh, he pitched a lot of innings. Plus, the manager that we had, Luke Casey, would leave him in a lot of times because he was a pretty good hitter too. And he would leave him in late in the games

and he would come through with base hits and stuff, drive-in runs. And that kept him in a lot of games, you know, that was close. They were close. And I guess the fans were there to see him, so you don't want to pull him. Yeah, yeah. Huh, no. Yeah.

It was really something to watch him that year. Yeah, I guess so. So, Grayson, I know you need to get to the park. We don't want to get you in trouble. So this is the last thing I wanted to ask. I guess technically you and Don are or were teammates with two of the best hitters of all time. Grayson, you've made it to the majors because Miguel Cabrera is on the disabled list with a strained hamstring.

Hopefully you will actually get to be his teammate and play with him sometime soon. But when you came up, Don, you were teammates with Ted Williams and you actually started at first base. Ted Williams' final game, the famous final game when he hit a home run in his last at-bat and John Updike wrote about it. I'm wondering whether you have any memories of that game in particular and just in general, watching Ted and playing with Ted and seeing how incredible he was even at that age? Well, I'll tell you, activities in the dugout, in our dugout, when Williams was going to bat, everything stopped. Everybody wanted to see what Ted was going to do this time.

And he didn't come totally natural to Ted even when he was 42 his last year. But everybody wanted to see what he's doing. Well, everybody wants to know what the count is before that next pitch, because he could teach you a lot of things just by watching him, what he did. And I'm fortunate that Ted hit a home run his last time at bat. And a year and a half later, I hit a home run his last time at bat, and a year and a half later, I hit a home run my last at bat in majors. Uh-huh. I learned well.

John Updike did not write about it for some reason, but yes, it was a walk-off shot too. That's a good way to go out. That's interesting. I know there were only like 10,000 people in the park that day. As I recall, it was not the best Red Sox team, but it has been kind of mythologized in the years since then. And I think that the house was like 16,000, which in Fenway, that looks like just a few folks

out having a nice stroll. He was a great teacher teacher if he never said a word to you just watch him watch what he does and where the pitches are on on certain counts but he was uh he was amazing i have to say you know mannell was playing at that time and maris and all those guys, but Ted at 42 was better than all of them. I don't know that any other ones made it to 42. But he was a terrific teammate, obviously a great hitter, and he'd talk hitting with you all day, all night if you wanted to. So that was fortunate, being able to play for him, with him, etc. All right. Well, we will let you go. Grayson, you can get to the park on time. We appreciate all of you joining us. And Grayson, we wish you a long career and not many more knee surgeries.

Thank you for having me on. Nice to meet you, Don. Good. And nice meeting you too, Grayson. I'm going to be looking for you now. Yes, Don. Good. And nice meeting you too, Grayson. I'm going to be looking for you now. Yes, sir. All right. And Pete, thank you very much for coming on as well. I appreciate it. I'm glad to be part of it. Okay. So that was really fun for me. I hope it was fun for at least some of you. On this show, you have to take your wild with your effective. But where else are you going to get Steven Brault, Johnny Venters, Grayson Greiner, and two other 6'6 catchers on the same show in one week? We booked the biggest names in baseball. And what I have learned from our interviews this week is do not become a pitcher or a catcher if you can help it.

These are hazardous occupations. But I could talk to or about catchers all day. They're just my desert island disc of baseball positions. By the way, we mentioned on the show earlier this week that Colin McHugh had become the first pitcher to use the Diamondbacks bullpen cart. Well, he broke the seal. He opened the floodgates. Now the great Sean Doolittle became the second. And unlike McHugh, Doolittle is a closer. So he rode in the front of the bullpen cart facing forward, whereas McHugh was in the back facing backward. He had to put his glove over his mouth as he rode in because Trey Turner was fist pumping and he was making Doolittle laugh.

But Doolittle actually sounds like he thinks this is beneficial to him, not just a novelty. He said, and not really getting that much out of the pitches. And here, I had less time when I got to the mound. I had 1 minute 13 seconds. I looked up, but I wasn't out of breath. My heart rate was up just from throwing out in the pen, but I was in a better spot energy-wise, I thought. So I loved it. I think there's a practical thing to it. People are making a big deal out of it,

and I'm like, why would I not conserve my energy before going into a game in the biggest moment? Why would I not? I've been advocating for bullpen carts for a few years. I think they're a good idea. I think there's a practical application for them. So I had an opportunity to try it out, and I think it was great. I think it's about time for a Diamondbacks reliever to try out their own team's bullpen cart. All these visiting pitchers are showing them up. So you can support this

podcast on Patreon by going to patreon.com slash effectivelywild. Five listeners who have already done so include Zangler, Christopher R. Gialoretto, Emily Thompson, Jamal Mosen, and Chris Kron. Thanks to all of you. You can also join our Facebook group at facebook.com slash groups slash Effectively Wild, and you can rate and review and subscribe to Effectively Wild on iTunes. Keep your questions and comments for me and Jeff coming via email at podcast at fangraphs.com or via the Patreon messaging system. And we had a lot of guests this week, but I'm pretty sure we'll have a full length email episode next week.

Thanks to Dylan Higgins for his editing assistance. I'll remind you again to subscribe to the, this weekend baseball debuts newsletter, tiny letter.com slash this weekend baseball debuts. You can keep yourself apprised of the next Grayson Griner. We hope you have a wonderful weekend and we will be back to talk to you early next week. Stand tall. Stand tall. Stand tall. Stand tall. Do you find something comical about my appearance when I'm driving my automobile?

Yeah. Everyone needs to drive a vehicle even the very tall. This was the largest auto that I could afford. Should I therefore be made the subject of fun? I guess so. All right. They didn't sound so tall.