Effectively Wild: A FanGraphs Baseball Podcast - Effectively Wild Episode 1234: The First Baseman Who Blogs

Episode Date: June 22, 2018

Ben Lindbergh and Jeff Sullivan banter about Coors Field, Domingo German, the amazing Max Scherzer, Tyler Chatwood, Kole Calhoun‘s comeback, the writing process, Marcell Ozuna‘s catch attempt, Ichiro and the Home Run Derby, and the AL playoff picture, then bring on 31-year-old MLB-player-turned-FanGraphs-writer Nate Freiman (20:22) to talk about his recent embrace of advanced stats, […]

Cold and grown, like a baseball diamond, waiting for the summer Staying inside, your boots will stay dry, but never touch the sand Going alone, feet moving forward, trying to find the answer I'm trying to find the answer And then you appear I think that you're here And then I'm finally home Hello and welcome to episode 1234 of Effectively Wild, a baseball podcast from Fangraphs, presented by our Patreon supporters.

I'm Ben Lindberg of The Ringer, joined by Jeff Sullivan of Fangraphs. Hello. Hi. If you sound a little bit different today, it is maybe partly because you're sick, but also because you're not in your typical recording place. You are in Denver for the annual Fangraphs meetup. I was invited.

I couldn't make it, but I was honored to get an invite as just someone who podcasts for the site. But you got to go to Coors Field, which, to my great regret, is something that I have never done. I've been in Denver once or twice, but always just briefly or on my way somewhere else. So I have not gotten to Coors Field yet. I really want to. Tell me about it. It's a beautiful ballpark.

I mean, you already know about like the forested Batter's Eye background and that little like basically wilderness park they have in the outfield where Fernando Rodney famously sat on a chair and just kind of wandered through the trees. So it's a beautiful park. We didn't do a whole lot of exploring yesterday. It's just a Thursday matinee, but we'll be going back to a game on Saturday, which is apparently a 25th anniversary celebration for the Rockies. So it's going to be a big crowd as they take on, I think, the Miami Marlins, which will not be the drop. But it's a beautiful stadium, great neighborhood it's in. We sat next to a season ticket holder named Larry, who always wears a Rockies road jersey, where instead of a name, it says hooray beer. So Larry is photographed in a lot of people's selfies. He is a popular fellow, does not read fan graphs, but he knew exactly how much money the Rockies had spent on their bullpen.

They had a player come in and they were playing the Mets on Thursday and they had a player come in and make his major league debut to pitch their way out of a tight game in the eighth inning. It was not Wade Davis. It was not Jake McGee. It was not the other one they signed, Brian Shaw. And so the Rockies are in a little bit of a world of hurt right now with their bullpen. But it's a beautiful park.

If I sound any different, I'm using all the same recording devices, but maybe my voice sounds different a mile in the sky. But we'll be talking in this episode to someone who played 7,000 feet in the sky playing baseball. So that's even more extreme than this. Denver, small fries compared to the Mexican plateau. That's right. Yes, our guest today is Nate Fryiman, who of course was a big leaguer, played for the 2013 and 2014 A's, but is now a sabermetrician. He is now dabbling in our world, and he has learned how to code and look at advanced stats. And so he's writing some really

exciting stuff that is marrying these two perspectives. So he's a very smart guy. We talked to him about his whole career, really, and the turn that his career has taken since he stopped playing. You know, Nate Fryman is six days younger than I am and a little bit more younger, I guess, than you are. And so to hear him talk about how this phase of his career is over, it's kind of like, you know, how you judge your own place in life by baseball players' places in life, like what it means for a baseball player when they turn 30 or they are 31 or, you know, 32. It's getting to the point where a baseball player is on the downside, and that is always kind of a distressing thought for a regular person, for a civilian.

And I know there are a lot of people who are older and who really cling to Bartol Cologne and some of the other old players because it's just nice to have someone in the majors who is older than you are. But you do tend to think of it that way, and it's really nice that writers don't have the same aging curve that players do, because we are just as unathletic as we have ever been or ever will be. And it's just not a big deal. Well, on the other hand, first of all, we don't really have a great understanding of the writer's aging curve, at least the baseball analyst writer's aging curve. It's not even a mixed bag. There's just no bag. There's no bag to analyze. But also,

I know that I already did my most creative writing about six years ago. That's gone. Ship has sailed. What I have left are facts. I can put a lot of facts in an article, but all the jokes, all the humor that used to be there, it's gone. I don't have that anymore. I'm just a slow crawl toward rigor mortis. That's what we're all doing, right? Well, hopefully that's because you were writing about bad Mariners teams, and so you had to be creative. And so if someone forced you to write about bad baseball teams again, you would be just as creative. But now you don't have to be because you can write about anything.

So all sorts of topics out there for you. Like Domingo German. He's fun. How is Domingo German being covered in New York? Because he seems to me like he's quite good. And the Yankees just have this unstoppable pitching generation machine. Yeah, I don't read a whole lot of New York baseball coverage and I would recommend not to do that because it's not always the best. But yeah, he is pretty good and

he's kind of under the radar a bit just because the radar is littered with so many other young talented yankees players but you wrote about him so tell me about him he's good he uh as starting pitchers go i was shocked to see that domingo herman has the second highest swinging strike rate in baseball like ahead of name a pitcher who you think is really good he's ahead of him unless you're thinking of i think it was was Max Scherzer, who's the only one. Who, incidentally, I have to look something up here to confirm because this isn't about Domingo German. I think German is good. He throws four pitches.

He's cool. He pitches backwards, which is a neat quirk. It's a very Yankees thing to do. He throws his fastball almost more often when he's ahead in the count than when he's even or behind, which is not what a lot of players do. You don't see a lot of rookies who can throw 96 come up and like favor their secondary stuff. So that speaks well to the Yankees player development. But there was something else, this is related to Scherzer, that I just happened to see the other day. At Baseball Reference, you can see how often a pitcher gets into 0-2 counts. Have you ever played with this? Yeah. So the league average is that for pitchers, they get to an 0-2 count a quarter of the time.

Exactly 25.4%. That's the league average right now. So ranks second through fifth, Chris Sale, Justin Verlander, Nick Pavetta, and Luis Severino, they get into 0-2 counts about 35-37% of the time. You and I both love leaderboards where first place is very well separated from second place. It is the greatest mark of a great leaderboard. Max Scherzer, 43% of his plate appearances, that's a difference of 6 percentage points between first and second place. 43% of his plate appearances get to 0-2.

43%. That's like 3 out of 7, I think, basically. That's a lot of 0-2 counts. Max Scherzer, he's so good. He's so good. And you remember earlier in his career, he was one of those guys, he was like a righty, low angle, couldn't pitch to lefties at all. When did Max Scherzer become Max Scherzer? I guess it would have been like 2013, maybe 2015. Maybe it was after he was traded from the Tigers. I don't know. But you just look at pitcher... The point here is pitcher development I guess it would have been like 2013, maybe 2015. Maybe it was after he was traded. The Tigers, I don't know.

But you just look at pitcher. The point here is pitcher development is weird. That's all. We talk so often about how pitchers have their best stuff when they're young. And that's true. You have the greatest arm strength when you're young. It's why I think pitchers are going to be coming out of the minors younger and younger. But like there's so much to learn.

And Max Scherzer figured his way out when he was in his later 20s early 30s so see there's still players aren't uh their careers aren't winding down necessarily when they're our age they're still getting better yes yeah it's not often that you have a guy who has won three Cy Young awards and you can say that he's having his best season now but he is I don't know how he could avoid winning a fourth at this point unless he gets hurt, but he has just really been fantastic. His strikeout rate now is up to 38.6%, which I believe would be a record. Of course, there are all sorts of strikeout records being set every season at this point, but yeah, he has been fantastic. 2.12 FIP right now, which is extremely good.

Oh, by the way, we didn't get a chance to do a Brian Mitchell update on the previous podcast. Brian Mitchell update, he's on the disabled list now. Who knows if that's because he's bad or because he's actually injured. But we do have a Tyler Chatwood update. He started the other day. Tyler Chatwood allowed one run on two hits to the Dodgers, struck out six and five innings, only walked five batters in that game let me do a quick check Tyler Chatwood also hit a batter in that game through a wild bitch so Tyler Chatwood is up to 67 walks and hit batters in 68.1 innings with 64 strikeouts and a 395 ERA no idea what to do here well speaking of guys who went on the DL

and no one was sure whether they were actually hurt or they had just been bad, Cole Calhoun was one of those guys. I think he actually was hurt. He had an oblique strain, but it happened to be pretty fortuitous timing because it was just almost merciful to get him out of action for a while.

So since he came back, he has played three games now. In the first one, he went two for three. And in the most recent two, he went one for four with a homer in each of those games. And it's funny, we have a listener named Bart who emailed us after the first one for four with a homer and said, how many times would Cole Calhoun have to go one for four with a homer and said, how many times would Cole Calhoun have to go one for four with a homer to get his WRC plus back to 100 on the season, back to average? Because even after the first one for four with a homer, he was at 12. His WRC plus of 238, that's what you get when you go one for four with a homer in Anaheim, at least. So he would have had to do that for 122 plate appearances to get his WRC plus back to 100. So basically he needed 30 or 31 consecutive games where he went one for four with a homer to get back to average.

And hey, he did it a second time. So now he only needs to do it 29 or 30 times to get back there. But he does seem to have possibly fixed himself. And effectively wild listener J.P. Hornstra, who covers the Angels and the Dodgers for the OC Register, he wrote about what Calhoun did. And Calhoun said that it was sort of a nice breather for him in a way. And he went home, he rested for four or five days, he watched video, he worked with coaches in Arizona, he worked on his mechanics, and he said it really helped. And

then his first rehab game back with AAA, he hit a home run. He was hot in that rehab stint. And then he was good since he got back. So I don't know. He said he was out of his mind before it happened. He was just swinging constantly and was probably bound to hurt himself because he was trying to figure out how to fix himself and he couldn't and he was in a bad mindset. And sometimes you really do just need to step away for a while. It's, you know, you hear writers say that too, if you're just really stuck on a piece and you're just pounding away at it and not going anywhere, just go do something else for a little bit and you'll come back and the words will flow. And maybe it works that way in baseball sometimes too.

Not always true. Sometimes you walk away from your piece and you come back and you're like, what was I thinking about? Like if I get a phone call in the middle of writing, how long does it take you when there's a difference between the research and prep, right? And the actual writing? Yeah. When you do, first of all, do you write your articles in one sitting? Generally, I do. Yeah. How long on average would you say it takes from first word to last word? Gosh, it's hard to say because I do a lot of the research as I go sometimes,

or I get additional information as I go, or I think of something else to look at while I'm writing, and then I pause and write, or I hear from someone I'm trying to interview. And then, so it's kind of hard to say, but I mean, the topic generation, I think is the hardest part for me. And then the research is often very time consuming.

And the actual writing is probably the most painless part of the whole thing. But I do write some long articles. So sometimes it still takes a really long time. And I'm not that fast a writer. I tend to just kind of edit myself and revise as I go. So a lot of people will just kind of bang out the whole article, and then they'll go back, and they'll rewrite it or change it in some way. And I don't really do that. I kind of just fix it as I go. So I'm happy with every bit, and then I move forward. So it's kind of slow

and methodical for me. I can't imagine getting to the end of an article and being like, great, time to edit and rewrite the entire thing. Oh, the hell with that. I can't even imagine. edit, and rewrite the entire thing. Oh, the hell with that. I can't even imagine. See, the way I look at it is anything I write, it's just a vehicle for facts to get out there. And if the writing isn't colorful enough,

then just deal with it because I have to be writing another article already while you're looking at this. Oh, perfectionism. It's just brutal. I forgot that Cole Calhoun opened his season by going three for five with a home run. Yeah, homered on opening day. Yeah, and then

didn't homer again until he got back from the steel stint strange season yeah he's one of the strangest and he had the good fortune of being on the disabled list when all the attention was going on chris davis because i think while because cole calhoun was hurt it was easier to just kind of uh ignore being like oh he he deserves like we're not going to write about cole calhoun right now he's not relevant he's on the disabled list so ch So Chris Davis got the brunt of it. And Davis has been out of the lineup for like a week, I think, with the Orioles. Ugh, the Orioles. I don't even, let's just, I regret even bringing them up. Right. So what else? I know there's been some conversation about Itro participating in the home run derby because of an offhand comment that was

made by Scott Service and people kind of took it seriously. And then we all realized, yeah, we've always wanted this to happen and it has never happened. And now that he's retired, maybe it could happen. I think Ichiro has said that he doesn't feel like he belongs because he's no longer an active player and he is now wearing a hoodie and a mustache to sit in the dugout like Bobby Valentine did. I don't care if he wants to wear a hoodie and a mustache and hit in the home run derby. That would be just fine with me. We've always wanted to see this. You still hear, because he still takes batting practice with the team, and you still hear

that he just hits home runs at will. Just let us see this one time, please. It doesn't matter anymore. There are a lot of active players who are afraid of screwing up their swings and so they don't want to participate in the home run derby doesn't matter anymore for each row just do it once just please it would be legendary i didn't realize maybe this is something that i had just forgotten about but apparently he was going to participate in 2008 and then he had an injured finger oh i thought it was i thought it was just a thing that people always talked about but it was never actually close to happening but me too i hadn't i hadn't heard about this until ryan

davish tweeted about it on on thursday but i feel like that tweet didn't get enough traction for me to think it was the first people had heard of this but it was the first i'd heard of this yeah me too huh well i hope it happens now did you see the catch speaking of catches where you climb up the wall and take back home runs that is something that each row did. It's something that Marcelo Ozuna attempted to do on Thursday, but didn't need to at all. Did you see this clip, this gif? I did not. Oh, man. All right. You have to see this gif.

All right. I'll look it up right now. Okay. So Ozuna, he's chasing after a fly ball that was hit by the Brewers' Jesus Aguilar, and he climbs up. He's standing on the wall, and then the ball falls in front of the wall or maybe at the very base of the wall, it looks like. So I sympathize because it's tough. Like, you're going back on the ball, and Oz's his back is completely to the plate and it's hard to turn around and sprint to the wall and you know you know that it's either going to be off the wall or over the wall and you're going to have to get up and so it's hard to track the ball while you turn around and sprint to it which is why it's so impressive when players do this this was not

impressive this was uh the opposite of that he's hanging on the wall with his one hand and the ball hits the wall well in front of him i have seen this once before it was one of the first gifs i ever made so this is like 2007 or something just one of the when the royals were terrible well the uh the other time the royals were terrible that's before the royals down a little bit yeah so uh i mean i don't even remember any specifics anymore but just like old baseball clip of like there was some royals outfielder just sprinting in the outfield to climb the wall, try to make a catch like this. But the ball didn't even come down like close to him. The ball came down like 20 feet in front of the wall.

So I have absolutely no idea what happened. And it's so long ago, like there's no sense trying to find any details. But it was, I think, the first like 100 gifs i ever made of baseball were just here were players embarrassing themselves and it's great because it's not like it's it's not one of those like lost to pop up in the in the sun or like it's a blooper but somebody gets hurt it's just like a blooper of this guy is doing something that is in absolutely no way related to the fly ball that is hitting his direction yep well we don't have too much more to say because we have a long chat with nate coming up you know, Meg Riley just wrote for Fangraphs about the AL playoff picture. We haven't talked about the playoff picture for a while. We did early in the season when things were sort of topsy-turvy and disordered, and they are to a certain extent in some places. But right now, when you look at who is leading in the divisions, it's kind of who we

thought was going to be leading in the divisions, right? Particularly in the AL where, you know, you go to the National League and you still have the Braves on top and the Brewers on top and the Diamondbacks on top. And maybe not by playoff odds, but at least by standings right now as we speak. But in the AL, you have the Yankees on top, you have the Indians on top, you have the Astros on top, and really no other team has a chance at this point. You have the Yankees with 100% playoff odds, the Indians with 97% playoff odds, the Red Sox with 100 or 99% playoff odds, although mostly wildcard, and then the astros with 100 playoff odds and then you have the mariners with around 70 or so and then you go all the way down to the angels at 18.5 that's the next best team with a chance to make the playoffs here and that is it everyone

else is sub 10 so it doesn't really look like there is going to be an AL playoff race this year. On the other hand, the Mariners have lost four in a row. They're in the most difficult part of their schedule. Playing the Red Sox and the Yankees and the Red Sox again. Swept by the Yankees. So the Angels have picked up two games in a few days. It's something. But the Angels rotation is using John Lamb.

Right. Cole Calhoun. We've talked about this before doesn't look good but at least the Angels have picked up a little bit of ground so that we can make this race somewhat interesting yeah and Yankees Red Sox is a good divisional race if you're into that so there's that as well whoever loses I mean if if things stay as they are and the Mariners do make the wildcard game and if if they make it pretty easily, then the Yankees and Red Sox are essentially playing not only to make it directly into a series, but to avoid having to beat James Paxton in a one-game playoff. Now, granted,

that could be Luis Severino or Chris Sale against James Paxton, and they would be at home, so the advantage would very much still be on their side, but as much as the Mariners are not a, what's the word, good team, they do stack up well for like a single game elimination format so that is the danger they have sort of that jk arietta madison bumgarner thing potentially going on right all right so we will end there and we'll take a quick break and we'll be back with nate fryman with Nate Fryman. So we are often joined by Fangraphs writers on the show, and we are joined by a Fangraphs writer now. This one happens to have been a Major League Baseball player. You may know him. He may know himself as Major League Baseball Advanced Media ID number 474384. If he does know that, he's probably the only former Major Leaguer who knows his MLBAM ID number.

I wouldn't put it past him. His name is Nate Fryman. Hey, Nate, how are you? Hey, Ben. Hey, Jeff. Thanks for having me. Yeah, we are happy to. So I want to go through your whole career a bit and talk a bit about how it ended and also what you've been up to since. I guess we should start there since that is what brought you to our attention most recently. Of course, playing in the majors brought you to our attention a few years ago. But since you retired, you have turned into a player slash sabermetrician. And you have done original research for Fangraphs and other sites.

And you're on Twitter and you're using R and you're programming and coding. And there are a lot of players, I think, who are familiar with advanced stats these days and, you know, can talk about the concepts, but there are not a lot who are actually running the numbers themselves. So how did you get to this point? So I always liked the numbers. I always liked writing too, actually. And when I got done playing after playing in the Mexican league, I reached out to a couple of people, yourself included, just sort of asked for some advice on how to start writing. And basically it was write about what you know. And I played, I played baseball and I'm interested in numbers. So I started, I picked up the coding thing. And once you start getting into that, it's addicting. It's like a video game. We, we put the kids down for their naps,

they're down to bed and I pretty much fire the computer right up. It's like Fortnite or something and hours go by. My wife's kind of looking at me like, OK. But it's fun. It's just pick it up like that. I mean, what steps did you take? How have you kind of gotten a handle on that? So I went to some online stuff there. There's a ton of resources online, free resources, some that are paid, basically those websites that you can essentially take online courses and coding.

And I I talked to some front offices and sort of got a sense for what they do. And R seemed like a pretty valuable one to learn. So just, yeah, basically one day just said, all right, I'm going to start learning. And it's been really fun. So you were in the majors. You were in the majors with Oakland in 2013 and 2014. And by that point, that was five, six, seven years into sort of the PitchFX era, as it were. Rest in peace, PitchFX era. We have a new era now. So by that point, there were elements of how we could understand all the data that we had. But of course, there was not the information available that there is now. And do you think that if you had

come around maybe five or six years later, that your career could have worked out differently? Do you think that you ended when you were 30 years old as a matter of talent? Or do you think that you could have numbered your way into a higher level of performance? I think, first of all, I always had a problem with overthinking when I was in the batter's box. And I think hitting coaches picked up on that pretty quickly. And the more numbers that are available, I think I might have had a worse time up there. I think sometimes my best approach was just go up there and try to see the baseball and not think about all this stuff.

But I think the game's changed a little bit. And the role I had in Oakland in 13 and 14 was a right-handed hitting platoon, first baseman. Couldn't really run the bases, couldn't steal, didn't have a ton of range at first. And I just don't think that's a necessary position in rosters and didn't really hit for enough power to make myself indispensable, but had a couple of years after that in the minors and just kind of ran out of opportunities and affiliated ball and figured it was time to move on. So the first piece that you wrote for Fangrass was called A Player's Take on Ex Woba. You've since done some research into

bullpen classification and looking at the different eras of bullpens. How are you getting ideas? Are they coming from kind of thinking about your career and wanting to look at things in a different way? Because it's great when you can marry a personal anecdote of something that happened to you on a field and then explore it with the numbers, Cause that's an ankle that is just not available to most of us who are just on the internet all the time. The first idea I had came from reading, it was on baseball perspectives. It was Jonathan judge had wrote a piece talking about the predictive value of pitcher X Woba. And he looked at it and then he looked at how it could maybe predict the next season. And just as I was reading that, I was thinking, man, I've had months where I felt like

I was hitting the ball really hard. And I wonder if that carries over to the next month. I didn't want to get into sample sizes that were just too crazy small, like, like a week, but I figured maybe if I used a month at a time, we could look month to month because I would always think about a season in terms of months. I go, that was a good month there. That was kind of a month at a time, we could look month to month because I would always think about a season in terms of months. I go, that was a good month or that was kind of a month I was ready to move on from. And do you read a lot of sabermetric writing, analytical writing and think I could have something to add here because I was a player or, you know, this author is missing some layer here because they didn't play the game. I mean, in theory, this is kind of how guys get hired to do TV work is, you know, they bring their knowledge of having been on a baseball field to bear when they're talking about current baseball players. And you are perhaps the first one ever to learn R and want to write for FanCraft.

So that is it's kind of exciting, I think, for all of us to have your perspective as someone who played and yet also does all this other stuff that we do. I think when I'm reading, it's definitely not like, oh, this guy never played, so he doesn't know what he's talking about. That's totally false. The level of sophistication and depth and breadth of the writing that's done about baseball right now is crazy. I'm learning so much from reading what you guys are writing. And it's definitely not, oh, I played so I know more. It's I'm trying to learn about what's out there right now. And maybe, yeah, I played maybe I can write something about

my experiences and then add some little anecdotes in there while I'm doing it. So you've been writing for a little period of time, but you've also had the one post to go up on Fang Refs. Now we can talk maybe a little later about what if you have an end game here or if you have goals. But since that post went up, or maybe even before that, have major league teams been in touch with you? Because as Ben and Travis Otrick are currently working on a book that is talking about how player development is taking place in this new information era and the value of former players who are able to speak to a deeper level of understanding of the game and analytics. And I mean, maybe you're not fully fleshed out in that regard, but you can be scouted here. You've got like a 70 or 75 label right on you as a former player who's familiar with R and analytics. That's higher than any label I had as a player.

Well, maybe it just took you a little while to find your calling. So have teams been reaching out to you already? I have talked to a couple of teams and I've had some really positive discussions with them, just sort of soft contact and informational stuff. I'm actually starting grad school in the fall. I'm heading back to Duke for business school, which it was kind of a difficult decision to go to grad school. But as a senior sign, had my degree and spent my time down in the Mexican League working on grad school applications. We sometimes wouldn't have the bus till five o'clock to the field. So you just sit around the hotel all day. So I'm excited for that. Excited to spend a couple more

years learning, maybe look at some opportunities, possibly outside baseball. But if someday I have the opportunity to go into front office, that's another type of dream come true. So you mentioned Duke, and I believe that you are still the home run record holder for a Duke player. And I was talking to Alex Hassan, your former teammate, and asking him if there's anything I should ask you. And Alex said, ask him about the home run he hit in batting practice at Durham Athletic Park his senior year at Duke. One of the most titanic home runs I've ever seen hit in BP or in game. Stuff of legend from our team.

So, Al, he stayed with me on his recruiting trip. He and I go way back. We played against each other in American Legion ball. So it was kind of fun being teammates down there for three years. I did. I hit one off the top balcony of that building behind the left field wall. But I got to Duke before the BB Corps era in college metal bats. So we were hitting these crazy trampoline bats so the ball would go forever.

But being the home run leader is, you know, it's an honor. It's partially a function of the fact that I was a senior sign. I just had had more, more bats to work with, but it was great experience. And you were a pitching prospect in high school. You hit 90 as I read, and you were a two-way player in college for one game, I believe, and then that ended. So tell us about the injury that brought a premature end to your two-way player career. Yeah, I was a freshman. It was about 40 degrees. I got the start on Saturday in our first weekend series against Seton Hall and I was all jacked up trying to throw the ball 100 miles an hour, which I couldn't do, thinking, oh, I'm going to throw it 90 right by a college hitter.

And I ended up throwing a third of an inning and blowing out my elbow. Left the game with two guys on. My roommate came in, gave a first pitch double, gave up both my runs. So I got a career ERA of 54. Never ended up pitching again. So I didn't completely blow it out. Just gave yourself a nice, what, grade two strain? Yeah, I think that's what it was.

They said if I pitched again, I probably would have needed it. But first base, getting the ball back to the pitcher after a pickoff was about my biggest throw of the day. Now, I understand that when you go through life on a daily basis, one of the first questions anyone will ask you is going to be something related to your height. That's what this is. You are a very tall man. There is another very tall man currently in Major League Baseball. Goes by the name of Aaron Judge. And one of the fun, albeit maybe for him, frustrating things about Aaron Judge and his game is that my sense is that when he comes up to bat,

umpires are not able to adjust their zones for the extremity of his proportion. He strikes out looking at a lot of pitches that appear to be below his knees because his knees are where Jose Altuve's neck is. So I am, on the one hand, that's something that is frustrating for him because he's at the major league level and those are balls. On the other hand, it's something he's probably had to deal with his entire life. So now I don't remember if you had a very extreme crouch, so maybe this didn't apply to you, but do you have any sense of how your personal strike zone over the years compared to that of your more average sized teammates? It did seem like I was getting some pitches down below the knees that maybe should have been called balls without without comparing my

game to Aaron judges I definitely sympathize with that I had a hitting coach in double a tell me that I needed to wear my pants hunter pence style so the umpires could see my knees maybe maybe see that bottom of the zone a little bit better but never ended up doing that he actually told me to roll him up mid at bat but I thought that was a one-way ticket to an ejection. Well, as I told you the other day, according to Baseball Perspectives' stats, you had exactly as many strikes called on you during your major league career as should have been called on you based on their data. So if you were getting some calls in some parts of the zone going against you, they must have been going for you in other parts of the zone, I suppose. But you hear all the time about big guys having long swings or holes in their swing. I don't know whether you've ever stood back to back with Tony Clark, but you guys

are the only position players who've ever been listed at 6'8". That is as big as baseball players get who are not pitchers. So do you think there's truth to that? Is it harder to cover the zone? Is it harder to get your hands into hitting position when you're just large? I think there is a lot of zone to cover. The two big things that I had trouble with were being on plane with the baseball. So if I stood really tall, unless I somehow got low into contact, I would be way above the baseball at contact and I would be coming down from above it. And without getting into all this launch angle stuff, you're you just don't want to be starting from too far above the baseball.

You want to be sort of near where the baseball is coming. But then I'd run into problems with I'd had a lot of moving parts in my swing. That was my big thing. And I'd be the hands, the head, the lunging forward. And I think I was best when I spread out a little bit and tried to be quiet. But unfortunately, I spent about four years not doing that. So was there a point as you were climbing the minor league ladder that you felt like, okay, pitchers are figuring me out or they've, they've figured out some strategy that I can't counter here. Because

you were a very good hitter in college, very good hitter in the low minors. Was there a point where you hit a wall? And I should say you were a decent hitter in the majors too, 100 OPS plus. Or you know what? I'm going to give you the 101 WRC plus. Thank you. Above average. Thank you for that. Yeah. I had crazy platoon splits in the big leagues. I hit against lefties. I think I hit pretty well against lefties. I had pretty hilariously bad numbers against righties. I think where I had trouble was once you get to the high minors and especially the big leagues when people can pitch inside consistently and effectively that that speeds you up as a tall guy in and you need to be conscious of that fastball in.

So sometimes I'd have to start a little bit early and get pretty vulnerable to chasing sliders and change-ups down. Yeah, I was going to ask you about the platoon splits. Jeff's favorite stat, you had a 121 TOPS plus against lefties and then a 28 TOPS plus against righties. But you hardly faced righties, right? You had 301 career plate appearances in the majors and only 68 of them came against righties. So I guess teams just thought he's a platoon guy and that was that. You didn't really get a shot not to be. I guess I could say that, but in fairness, I don't think I gave him any reason to think that I could hit righties with the bats I had. And in the major leagues, the fact of the

matter is you get certain opportunities and you're not going to get more unless you earn more. And with the 68 times I came up against righties, I didn't really show that I belonged at the plate against righties, unfortunately. But yeah, I'm proud of the time I spent there. I got to be part of two playoff teams. It was really fun. Now, I do notice that when you made your major league debut, you swung at the first two pitches you saw, which is ballsy. So credit to you.

But you were a Rule 5 pick. And I don't think that we've talked to the Rule 5 pick before, but you were selected by the Astros and you wound up going to the A's. See, I was curious why the A's had called you up out of the minors so early in the season. Usually, for service time reasons, it's not a thing they do. But as a Rule 5 pick, you came straight from AA. So when you look back, do you think in any way that the fact that you didn't get to go to AAA first for at least a half season in any way affected how you adjusted to the majors? Or do you feel like your career would have gone as it did almost regardless? Yeah, first of all, I don't think

the A's or anyone else were concerned about me hurting them as a super two as far as arbitration dollars go. So I don't think that was a consideration. But yeah, I did skip AAA on the way up, which was which was crazy. And and I was sort of insulated from the majors by just facing lefties in 2013. And then I spent a half year in AAA in 14 before going back up. And I think there maybe there would have been some development that could have happened. But I also had plenty of time in AAA after initially getting up to the big leagues. And I could have performed down there and maybe gotten back up. But unfortunately, I didn't. I'm curious, again, as a rule five pick, I've never asked before.

Did you ever get the sense that there was any I don't know if resentment is the right word, but would you be treated differently by other players in the clubhouse? Because as a rule five pick your promotion, you sort of I don't know a better word, but like cheated. You were just pushed right into the major leagues. Maybe you hadn't earned it. Maybe you hadn't paid your dues. Was that ever a factor at all? Or is it just, we're all in the clubhouse, we're on the same team. And so we're all just going to get along and we all have the same goal in mind. Yeah, that's a great question. I think

it depends on the clubhouse you're in. And I happened to be on the A's in 13. It was a really relaxed group of guys, Brandon Moss, Coco Crisp, Jed Lowry, Seth Smith, Chris Young. The veteran guys in that clubhouse were just really cool to me, and they were really accommodating, really welcoming. So I think there are some clubhouses where the Rule 5 tag makes it sound like you're sort of protected on the roster, but the fact is Rule 5 guys get returned all the time, and major league teams aren't just going to keep a guy in their 25 man that isn't performing.

I didn't light up the league in 13, but as a platoon guy against lefties, I had some success. I'm pretty confident that they would have returned me if I hadn't been performing. Did you have a sense that you were going to be a Rule 5 pick? Obviously, right there, in terms of the money you're making, that's a huge difference. Yeah. I had a good season in double a and then i got sent to the fall league didn't get protected on the roster and said man i you know i had a really good season i i really hit well against lefties yeah maybe i could get picked and be a lefty or platoon guy against lefties in the big leagues like that'd be really cool so it was definitely something i was hoping for and i was actually in taiwan caddying for for amanda when the rule

five happened so i you know when you caddy you wake up at like 4 45 and you're out in the sun all day so i was asleep yeah it was 11 p.m local time i'm like no shot i'm staying up for this so i wake up the next morning and yeah a couple emails you know from my parents or my agents like yeah you got rule five during the 40 man i'm like oh my gosh i'm gonna be making like i'm making forty thousand dollars this year this is amazing emails they didn't even like try to call you well this is so this would have been in 2012 yeah i guess i did have a smartphone but no i mean i was asleep but and i think they they all knew with the time change that email was the way to get in touch yeah interesting all right hey hey just so you know you're gonna you're about to make five hundred

thousand dollars so uh just wake up to this have fun caddying yeah so the so once you sign that once you sign that deal you know they don't have to keep you, but once you sign, you are guaranteed your minor league split. So first year 40, man, is like 43. So I was definitely not just making financial decisions like, oh, I'm going to be in the big leagues this whole year. I figured that worst case scenario, I get cut, but I still make $43,000, which was like, oh my gosh, I've been making $6,000 for the last three years. which was like, oh my gosh, I've been making 6,000 for the last three years. I wanted to ask you about something else I saw on your splits page, which maybe could be an article topic at some point for you, but I don't know whether you've seen the research about the pinch hit penalty and how guys who come in mid game, they seem to have some issues because you're

coming in cold. You haven't seen the picture, whatever it is. There's a lot of speculating about what exactly it is. So you suffered the pinch hit penalty, I would say. You were a much better hitter as a starter than you were as a sub. I can spare you the actual numbers, but they weren't pretty as a substitute. No, it's okay. I have seen those. Yeah. So yeah, it's about a 300 point OPS gap, roughly when you were starting a game or when you were

coming in as a pinch hitter or a defensive replacement and then getting a plate appearance. So what is your... I never came in as a defensive replacement. Okay. I was giving you the benefit of the doubt, but all right. So what do you think of the pinch hit penalty since you actually lived it? It's cool that people have quantified that because it's absolutely a thing. You as a starter, you're you're playing, you're moving around,

you have a chance to adjust to your timing. Your first at bat, you see the pitcher a little bit. Now things are changing now when the pitchers you see the starter twice. But back in my day, five years ago, maybe you'd see that starter three times and sort of adjust to what he's throwing. And even if you get out your first time, you still got three or four more plate appearances that night where you're loose. But as a pinch hitter, yeah, you're coming in cold off the bench. Now, definitely you go inside, you warm up, you foam roll, you get on the bike, you hit flips, but it's difficult to really simulate the speed of a game just coming off the bench. What is the biggest benefit to seeing a pitcher

say two times and then facing him the third time? Is it being able to pick up his release point? Is it just knowing how his stuff moves, having seen his pitches? Is there just no substitute for being in the box, even in an era when you can watch as much video and look up the numbers as much as you want? Yeah, there's really no substitute. Hitting is all about timing. And you see that release point, you know exactly where the ball is coming out of. And you can kind of time his leg kick, his motion to whatever timing mechanism you have

and be on time that way. That's why guys like Johnny Cueto and Marcus Stroman, when they mix up their times to the plate, I don't know if I haven't seen a lot written about that, but it's really effective. And pitching is hard enough when you repeat your delivery every time. But when you start seeing guys mix up their times to the plate, even out of the windup, it's really tough on a hitter.

Well, I can tell you why you haven't seen much analysis is because we have no tags for when that happens. So we really can't analyze it except anecdotally. So maybe that's where you can come in very handy. We need a lot of former players telling us when pitchers are mixing up their timing. Now, as you mentioned before, you did end up playing in the Mexican league. And you were born in DC, grew up in Massachusetts, went to school in Duke, major league baseball in Oakland. Really, it doesn't matter what your background is. It's interesting. You wound up going to Mexico. You played for both Monclova and Puebla. I don't know how that transfer happened.

Maybe you can elucidate that. But how much apprehension was there in your mind to go play in a foreign country? We have talked to players who have gone to play in Japan, which, of course, is maybe even less familiar to someone born and raised playing baseball in the States. But how was your Mexican league experience and what led you in that direction as you played your final professional season? And if I can piggyback on that, Jeff Passan just reported at Yahoo that MLB has banned transactions with the Mexican league. And according to them, it's because of corruption and fraud.

I don't know whether that affected you at all. I need to be careful how I answer that because I don't want to jeopardize other guys' opportunities to go down there, but I'll just say yes. Going down to Mexico was cool because first of all, I'm not a fluent Spanish speaker, but I speak pretty good Spanish for someone that just learned it in school. So I was excited to have the opportunity to go down there. I was playing indie ball. I was in Long Island, got back from the WBC, didn't have any opportunities in pro ball, went back to Long Island, got the call about a weekend of the season for Mexico. And the thing about the Mexican league, especially now, is that's kind of a dead end with regard to affiliated ball. You're not going to get

the call and say, hey, we need a guy in AAA. You're going to stay down there. But you make more money and there's occasionally a slot that opens up in maybe japan or korea and for guys like me guys who have had a little big league time getting over there is a huge opportunity to go to asia so that was sort of a long shot anyway but yeah i got the call to go down there i said it's more money than i'm making an indie ball yeah let's do it and so i went down to monclova which and i would be careful here but the the ownership group owns both Monclova and Puebla. And they kind of treated it as their A and B team. So Monclova was the A team.

And after 48 bats, I got traded to Puebla. Just leave it at that. And it was a great opportunity. Puebla is at 7,000 feet. It's this beautiful mountain town. The ball flies. So it was a fun place to play. We were technically the B team. We, we had a mediocre regular season record, but we got hot in the playoffs and

ended up going to the, the study, a Delray, the world series down there and a lot of fun. Yeah. I was going to ask you about the altitude. I guess you never got into a game at course field, but I've written about what baseball in Mexico city would look like. I don't know whether you played there, but playing at that level, I mean, do you think that baseball would work down there if MLB ever expanded, which there's talk of now and then? Would you have to have the humidor turned up to the highest possible setting to make it look like real baseball, or did it look like real baseball? Yeah, we did play in Mexico city and we took BP on a day where the wind was not even blown out. I'd say trickling out and it was comical. You were, you were just flicking balls off the end of the bat that you expect the shortstop to

catch that we're getting out of the park. So they can definitely do something to adjust the balls. They have the lead, half the teams in the PCL have humidors. They have them in the big leagues. They can adjust to that. But Mexico City would be a cool place to play. There's a lot of interest, and I think they'd get a ton of fans. When you would walk around Puebla, now I know you were only there for,

I don't know, a third of a season, quarter of a season, I don't know how long the season is down there. 42 games you played in Puebla, beautiful, beautiful city. Being that you were presumably the most gigantic person on the team, I could be wrong here, but probably.

Was there enough of a fan base that people would recognize you, or were you mostly staying in the hotel and doing your grad school applications? So when you come to the plate in Puebla, they announce your nickname. There are a couple of American guys there. If you guys remember Julio Bourbon and Andy Chavez. Oh, yeah. So I guess I should say imports. We also had Josh Outman.

You guys mentioned him a couple of times on the podcast. And Josh Renneke. So when I'd come to plate, they would announce me as El Gigante. Which was kind of cool because on the road, they called me the Jirafa, giraffe. So no, when I'd be around Puebla, occasionally someone would say, oh, he got to, he got to. And it was pretty funny. I definitely stick out like a sore thumb pretty much everywhere I go, but in Puebla, they noticed me. So what made you decide to call it a career when you did? Because as you said, you played in the Indy Leagues, you played in the Atlantic League, you hit really well there last year, and presumably you could have kept playing in the Indy Leagues for as long as you wanted. And you played for Team Israel and

the WBC, and then you decided to hang them up. So why stop playing instead of being one of those guys who just hangs on as long as possible, as long as someone will give them a place to play professionally. That's a difficult decision. And talked ad nauseum with my wife. We have two little kids, one and a three-year-old. And I was down in the Mexican League. At one point, I went 11 straight weeks without seeing them. And we just decided that I would take a shot at something else.

It was a great run. It started to look like the big leagues, if I ever got back, I might be chasing some kind of paternity leave fill-in at best. And it just didn't look like the opportunity was going to be there. And I'd spent three years trying to get back and it was just time to move on. And going from, you know, once you've been in the big leagues and then you're playing in Mexico, you're playing in Long Island. Mentally, is it tough to stay motivated? Obviously, the conditions, the pay, it's nowhere close. Do you just feel like you're very far from the bright lights at that point?

By the time I got to Mexico, it had been a couple of years since I'd been in the big leagues. And as it definitely fades a little bit in 15, I spent the whole year in Nashville in the new AAA stadium for the A's. And you're around guys that are going up and down. So you're still around it. We had Barry Zito in the clubhouse that year. But as a 29-year-old, I started the year in indie ball and then actually went to AA with the Red Sox,

which was a great experience and unbelievable organization. I got to play in Portland, Maine, which was really fun. But I started to feel a little bit like Crash Davis near the end of that season and figured I'd give it one more shot. And once I ended up in Mexico, I started firing up the applications. I wanted to ask, there was two things about that season that you spent in Nashville in 2015. In the very final game of the season, you spent one inning playing right field. It is the only inning you seem to have ever played playing any position that wasn't first base. I don't know if the ball was hit to you. It's the last game of the season. You know, the Nashville finished 66 and 78, not playing for anything, but how terrified were you for those 10 minutes that

you were standing in the outfield? Just hoping nothing was hitting your direction. I was hoping I was going to rob a homer. Figured what's the worst that could happen. Anybody that's going up to the big leagues is already up there. So if a guy gets the ball hitting the gap, it's not like I'm going to wreck his season if I don't get to it because it's going to be a hit if it's hit towards me. So I just figured maybe I could take a homer away. Well, I wanted to ask about another position you played, which amazingly is catcher, which was not in pro ball, but I know you played catcher throughout high school and maybe even in college.

Alex was telling me that you worked really hard at it, that you were playable there, which was remarkable given your size, but he said it looked absolutely ridiculous when you would be a catcher. And I can only imagine because we did a podcast recently with the three 6'6 catchers in Major League history. And man, I wish you had made it because a 6'8 catcher, that would be a spectacle. So tell us about what it was like to catch despite being that tall. I wanted to keep catching and it just got increasingly evident that it wasn't going to happen. I loved it. And I just kind of outgrew the position. I couldn't get down there and it just looked silly, but we were kind of thin at catcher at Duke. We had one guy that was

awesome. He caught every game for us. And three out of the four years, we basically didn't have a backup. So I was, I was the backup the backup, but word got around to the A's. And so I ended up being that guy that would go warm up the pitcher in between innings because the A's bullpen is all the way down in left field. And after the fifth inning, the catcher, the guy who wasn't playing, would go down there to help the bullpen catcher. So they could have two catchers down there. So if the catcher made the last out, second half of the game game i would go out there and warm up the pitcher which was terrifying i got to

catch sunny gray with that 95 mile an hour cutter thinking my thumb's about to break but it was fun i uh i wanted to ask you a question as well about a former teammate i'm just going to read down the the major league leaders in wrc plus just in order here. This should not be too surprising. Mike Trout, Bookie Betts, J.D. Martinez, Brandon Nimmo, Jose Ramirez, Freddie Freeman, Max Muncy, Aaron Judge. You played with Max Muncy. He currently has a 163 WRC Plus. Aaron Judge is at 162.

Max Muncy, therefore, is the better hitter. Is there anything, looking back, we could see that even in the major leagues when Max Muncy wasn't hitting very well, he did have a disciplined approach. But when you were playing with him, was there ever anything that stood out to you that said this guy has a lot of untapped potential? Because the breakouts like this are one of the most exciting but also frustrating things for an analyst because they do kind of come out of nowhere. And Muncy is not the first player to do this. But was there ever anything to you that said this guy's going to be good? One of the most important things in hitting is what you swing at and putting yourself in good counts. A lot of times we make out swinging at

bad pitches or swinging and missing at bad pitches and even counts and putting us in maybe one two count when it could have been two one. I think that there's a big thing about that money ball. one-two count when it could have been two-one. I think that there's a big thing about that money ball. And what Munts has always been good at is keeping that zone small. He's always had a great approach. And as a hitter, if you go up there, you keep your zone small early in the count, you have a good idea of the strike zone, you're just going to put yourself in a good position to hit. And he's got great hand-eye coordination. He's a good athlete. He can play all over the field. And when you put yourself in good position to hit, that's a big part of it, especially now when strikeouts and walks are getting so out of hand. He's a guy that really puts

themselves in good counts. You mentioned growing out of catcher. I was going to ask, I didn't grow until I was 17 or something, and obviously I didn't grow ever as much as you did. So I spent years thinking, all right, it would be nice if I could grow now. Did you think it would be nice if I could stop growing now? I don't know when your growth spurt came, but was there a point where you were like, all right, I'm good with being 6'5 or 6'6 or whatever it is. We can cut it off here. My dad's really tall and so is my mom. So I figured I was going to be pretty tall. And when I was in high school, I didn't have a crystal clear idea of my future like most high schoolers and like, oh, I can throw a baseball 85 miles an hour. Oh, cool. Maybe if I get taller,

I'll be a pitcher. So it was just one of those things that just, I think I was about 16, 17. And honestly, I thought I was going to be a pitcher. Do you think you could have been if not for the injury? Were you tempted to rehab that and have a surgery if you needed one and see where it went? Surprisingly, no. I loved being a position player. I liked playing every day. I actually do think about that sometimes. If I had stuck with pitching, what would have happened?

But honestly, I got to play two seasons in the big leagues. It was incredible. And it's hard to believe I would have done more than that. One of the fun questions that remains sort of unanswered, I think it remains sort of unanswered, is in this information era that we find ourselves in, trying to figure out if there is a bigger advantage from the information available to the run prevention side or the run production side. Now, had you been able to pitch, you would have had a different perspective on this. But do you think that that pitchers in the defense get to benefit more? Or do you think that hitters are able to counteract the information with the information that they have on their own? I do think this,

the information helps the run prevention between the positioning and the like hot zone, cold zone and the spin stuff. And now this basically pitch development stuff we're seeing about guys like Adam Ottavino are basically inventing new pitches. I think it really gives an advantage to the pitchers and fielders. And I think it's hurting the hitters. Not that there's anything wrong with that. I think you guys have pointed out that analytics are just doing a really good job at run prevention. And now it's about swinging

the pendulum the other way somehow. You know, when you came up with those A's teams, 2013, 2014, there was a lot written about those teams and clubhouse chemistry, because that 2013 team was sort of, you know, a surprise team, exceeded expectations, and seemed to have a really great clubhouse. And Sam Miller wrote something for ESPN about whether chemistry was part of that success. And of course, it didn't seem to last a few years down the road after you had moved on. That team had some issues in the clubhouse. So maybe you were the chemistry, the glue guy who was keeping it all together. Clearly, we identified the issue.

Yeah. Well, so that's what I was going to ask. Did you feel that when you come up to this team, did it feel like a different clubhouse than you'd been in before? And was it easy to believe that maybe that was having something to do with the fact that the team was exceeding expectations? I think people who know way more

about what they're talking about than I do in this regard have written and studied this. But as far as clubhouse chemistry goes I I don't know if having a good chemistry can help you win but I think it can help you rebound from losing and I've been around teams that when you lose it's a graveyard in the clubhouse and everyone starts pointing fingers and 25 guys 25 taxis and it's just uncomfortable and you don't like coming to the park but But when that 2013 team lost, everything was loose. Just come back, get them the next day, and then you let it be taken care of on the field.

So it was definitely a great group to be around. There weren't a lot of egos. There weren't guys that were about themselves. Like I said earlier, veterans really went out of their way to take guys like me under their wing. I mean, Chris Young called me and Adam Rosales into the storeroom one day just randomly and bought us both suits. So it was just great guys on that team. And it was really fun team better. Can you predict it? Can you engineer it? And you know who the good guys in baseball are, right? You've played with a lot of people. You know what this person's like and what that person's like. So in theory, it sounds like, well, you should just be able because sometimes a player is really good and he's not the best guy and you still need good players on your team but also maybe just because personalities gel in a different way and you can't always predict how one guy will get along with another i talked to a an al scouting director about this and basic makeup is a really big component of scouting and that's one one of the real reasons that

the scouting is so crucial in this age of analytics. And there are the five regular tools, and then you have the six tools, makeup. And he said that, yeah, we want guys that have talent and we want guys that are good players, but we need good makeup guys in the clubhouse. And I've always kind of thought that there are sort of seven tools. You got your regular five, and then you got number six is being a good teammate. And number seven is dealing with failure. And if you can get guys in the clubhouse that are good players, but also can show signs of that sixth and seventh tool, I think you're going to have a positive environment. Now, you only had the two years in the major leagues, but you did at least get to participate in one of the most memorable baseball games in recent history. You had a pinch hit at

bat. Now, as discussed, it didn't work out for you. You made an out. But in the 12th inning, you were eventually replaced by Alberto Callaspo came in, pinch hit for you, drove in the go-ahead run. That's right. Should have and could have been the game winner but uh because you played a small role i'm referring of course to the 2014 wildcard game between the a's and the royals a game that sent two teams in very different directions after the fact what was your experience as a player actually watching all of that unfold because of course from here we could just say well you know there was nothing was going to stop the royals gerard dyson was going to put that team on his back somehow. And, you know, just the base running, they were unstoppable.

But, you know, the A's were right there, had leads at multiple occasions, could have and should have won that game. Given that the A's, you know, you took the lead back in the 12th inning after everything that had happened before that. How did the momentum feel from the bench? Or did it just feel like a game that ultimately was just out of your hands? It was going to happen however it happened. Right. So the rules, the roster rules in the playoffs, you can reset the roster after each round. So they left most of the starting rotation off the roster and they filled out the bench with guys that guys like me and Andy Perino, Billy Burns. So we were all active. And so we had a four run lead in the eighth. John Lester was

still on the mound. We had our whole bullpen attack. We had Dool And so we had a four-run lead in the eighth. John Lester was still on the mound. We had our whole bullpen intact. We had Doolittle. We had Gregerson. We had Otero. Everyone was ready to go. And so I'm in the end of the bench talking with Andy Perino. And we're thinking we're about to go to Anaheim.

And we're going to come off the roster once the roster resets for the next round. But this is amazing. We're going to get to go. We'll be in turfs. But we're going to get to go to Anaheim. This is incredible. And I've seen footage of the 86 World Series. I grew up in Boston. And I imagine that's kind of what it felt like. It was just heartbreaking. And unfortunately, I didn't know at the time that would be my last major league game. But it was just heartbreaking. And yeah, I got to pinch hit against Brandon

Finnegan and ended up popping up. But it was a real heartbreaking And yeah, I got to pinch hit against Brandon Finn again and it ended up popping up, but it was a real heartbreaking game to be part of. What was your playoff share for that one wildcard game? The wildcard share was 16. Man. And then the playoff share for the Division Series the year before. I wasn't on the roster for the Division Series,

but I'd been in the league, been up the whole year. So I automatically qualified for a full playoff share. And I went into the shares meeting which was crazy um that again i need to be careful what i say about that just that it was surprising but that share was like 35 i think wow it was amazing it was just like it was i mean it was just this crazy windfall money and then the valve gets turned off really fast i think some players, like there's a sense like, oh my gosh, they're making all this money. Like it's just going to

keep coming. And, you know, hopefully there's a guy in the clubhouse that can be like, listen, like this could literally end tomorrow for you. Be careful what you do. Yeah. Especially if you're a pitcher, just don't spend money if you're a pitcher. It's a, it could turn off any second. Yeah. That was the day when most of the baseball following public found out about John Lester's inability to throw to first base, which we've talked about many times over the years. And the Royals very notably exploited it that day. And obviously, Lester's been a fantastic pitcher despite this, continues to be a fantastic pitcher but was this something that you and the rest of his teammates were aware of when the royals started taking advantage of it in this game

i mean did you feel for him first of all and second did you know that this was a potential vulnerability coming into this game first of all the fact that he has had so much success in the big leagues with you know with that part of the game, you know, going on for him is incredible. He's just an amazing competitor. He is a really intimidating guy on the mound when you're looking at him. So just awesome pitcher. But no, I didn't know that was a thing when we got him. I played first base, I think in Atlanta when he was pitching and, you know, never really seemed to throw over.

But I didn't really know that about that going in, but it's, it just shows how good a pitcher he is that, you know, even without consistently throwing over to first, he just has so much success. So related to that, I was recently looking at this guy on the Padres. His name is Eric Lauer. He's got seven pickoffs this year already. That's a lot of pickoffs and you know, pitchers throw over all the time. The major league leader right now has like 80 pickoff throws. This is tracked, if you can believe it, people who throw over to first base. But, you know, a lot of the pickoff moves are slow. They don't really have the intent of trying to get the runner out. But a lot of times they are trying to get the runner out. And I've never talked to a first baseman about what

it's like to actually be on the receiving end of those throws because you don't get any warning, right? You have to read his motion too, because I can't imagine the pitcher gives you a signal that he's going to throw over. So how nerve wracking is it? Maybe not with John Lester so much, but a pitcher who does throw over to know that you have to be ready for a ball in play, but also he could be thrown over at any moment to try to get the runner leading off first. Right. As a first baseman, especially with a lefty pitcher, you're just not going to get as far off the base when he goes home because you really got to make sure he's not coming over to first. So I've had some guys that you like to see their move once or twice.

And the nerve wracking thing is when you have a guy that you've never seen before, you've never seen his move and you're like, okay, is he coming over? And it's definitely happened where I've gotten fooled where guys have have lifted and i thought he's going to the plate and i start going off and he throws to first and like oh man it actually i actually did have a ball get by me in a ball so former padre's josh spence asu guy he does his move over to first thinking man that's a pretty good move. But it turned out that – so some guys have like A moves and B moves, and they'll show the B move, and then they'll go with the A move

and really get you, and he got me. So I thought that was his move, and then he showed his real move. And I was three feet off – I was three steps off the base getting ready for a ground ball, and the ball goes by me to the first base dugout, and I had to run after it. He picked off the wrong guy. Yeah, he picked us both off, but the other guy got to third. ready for a ground ball and the ball goes by me to the first base dugout and I had to run after it. He picked off the wrong guy. Yeah, he picked us both off, but the other guy got to third. But yeah, when you see a new guy, you really got to take an extra second, make sure you get a feel for his move. But sometimes you're just not going to get off as far because when

that leg goes up, you got to really hold back, make sure he's not coming over. Is that a thing you talk about when you have a new pitcher who's taking the mound? Because you always hear about pitchers and catchers who are doing their pregame prep, but do pitchers ever alert you like, hey, by the way, I'm really quick over and I like to throw? I actually have had a couple pitchers tell me, hey, I have a pretty good move, just hold back a little bit. There have been times when I'm thinking, all right, sure, we'll see. And then it turns out they do. Every pitcher thinks he has a really good pickoff move to first.

And some of them have better moves than others. But what we do sometimes is sometimes the first base coach would telegraph somehow the guy's going first move. You would either pat him on the leg or something, or sometimes you would just say, all right, go right here, first move. And so we'd have a sign. I'd have a sign with most lefty pitchers. They'd do something with my glove, just say, hey, look at me, this guy's going. And we'd pick off some guys doing that. They'd lift first move, we'd get the throw over, and then we'd have them in a rundown. So you played for Team Israel in the 2017 WBC. I know that was a fun experience and that team

kind of caught on. Lots of people were rooting for you. How did that compare to the playoff game atmosphere? I mean, did it feel the same way? Was there the same kind of pressure and desire to win or even more in certain cases? Because it seemed like last year, maybe more than before, people really got into the WBC, both players and viewers. Yeah, I think the WBC really caught on this time around, partially because the US won. But even throughout the whole tournament, there just seemed to be way more excitement.

And so we played in some really cool venues. We played in the Dome in Korea. And so when we played South Korea, we were the first game of the tournament. It was incredible. There were 30,000 people there just screaming the entire game, playing instruments for every walkout. And, yeah, it felt like a playoff game. And then we go to Japan. We didn't expect to win our bracket, but we went 3-0 over there.

We beat Netherlands. We beat Korea. And we get to the Tokyo Dome, and we got a 7 p.m. game. We're the away team against Japan. We go out at five o'clock to stretch and there are already 40,000 people in the seats. It was crazy. So you're saying it wasn't quite like playing for an A's home game. Honestly, the A's don't draw a ton of people. I think that's pretty well documented, but if you've been to an A's game, which sure you guys have that

the people that come are on are unbelievable. It's, it's a sure you guys have, that the people that come are unbelievable. It's a small group of people, especially the people that sit out in the outfield above the scoreboards and right and left fields. They're so into it. And they're also playing instruments. And we got to meet a couple of those guys, really great fans. So what is the, one of the things that's difficult to ever isolate when you're writing about this is you'll always talk about the crowd size, volume of the crowd and how it might be able to change the dynamic on the field. But what is the experience playing in front of a large or really energized crowd versus playing in front of a sparse or kind of dead crowd? Do you think that it has a real effect on the home team?

Do you think that it has an effect on both teams? When you have a playoff atmosphere, you can think of when Pirates fans were chanting for Johnny Cueto, just trying to get in his head. But when you have that kind of atmosphere, does that lift up both teams? Or are you just so focused on what's happening on the field that it's not really something that you were aware of as you play? No, I think it's definitely a factor. So in that 2014 wildcard game in Kansas City, Kansas City, at least for the Chiefs, they're all about the noise level in that stadium.

They sort of go back and forth with Seattle. So I think that carried over to the wildcard game. They were trying to be the loudest stadium in baseball that day, and it was the loudest thing I've ever been part of. And you hear about some guys wearing earplugs in Fenway or Yankee Stadium, but I can imagine it. And yeah, when they did something, it would be deafening. plugs and you know fenway or or bought or yankee stadium but i can imagine it and and yeah when they did something that it would be deafening and i imagine if if you're the home team that would be

pretty cool and having hit in the wbc and gotten an at-bat in the tied wild card game in the 10th inning i mean how does the pressure compare did that make you a believer in the idea of clutch or are you persuaded by the studies that seem to fail to find it every time that they look? That's such an interesting question. I think that there is something to be said for playing under pressure. I think that once you start, though, once the game starts, it sort of fades a little bit. It's that first at bat. It's that first time you're on defense, the first ball that's hit in play, the first pitch you see, and then it fades a little bit it's that first at bat it's that first time you're on defense the first ball that's hit in play the first pitch you see and then and then it fades a little bit you're

in a baseball game so i think maybe for maybe a pinch hitter in a big game like that that might be something to look at but i think as the game goes along you sort of get into the game and you start phasing or you start sort of blocking that out. Do you have any opinions on given the timing of the WBC? And of course, we've seen pitchers get hurt as a consequence or maybe further down the road. Do you have any opinions regarding the timing and how it makes players sort of ramp up quicker than they might otherwise? The thing is, the WBC is such a cool event. And I think it's incredible. I think it's something that we should continue to have. What's inherent is that pitching is dangerous. And I think, Jeff, I think you mentioned

this a couple episodes ago. It's just dangerous. Nobody should ever pitch. If you pitch, you're probably going to get hurt eventually. And that's exaggeration. But unfortunately, whenever we have baseball games, I think we run the risk of people getting hurt. And I think that's something that we're just going to have to accept. I think that, yeah, it would be great to figure out a way to get people ready for the season and stuff. But it's an awesome event. And I think pitchers are going to do a good job getting ready for it next time around. You wrote about your WBC experience for the Players' Tribune. time around. You wrote about your WBC experience for the Players' Tribune. And I think when the Players' Tribune came about, I think some writers were kind of nervous or defensive, like, are they

not going to talk to us anymore? They have their own site. They can just write their own thing. And as it turns out, I think that everyone can kind of coexist. But I am curious about what you have sensed is the player attitude toward writers. And I think most writers treat players fairly and don't misrepresent what they say and aren't really out to get them or anything. But there are the occasional ones who are, who I guess give the rest of us a bad reputation in the clubhouse. So do you think that there is a lot of suspicion? There are a lot of people who are unwilling to talk and open up because they're afraid of how things will turn out in print. I think that the people that cover the A's do a great job.

I think Susan Slessor is one of the most respected sports writers in the country and always felt like she was just doing a great job being objective, giving us the chance to give our side of the story. She was really fair. I never saw anything malicious out of any writer. I think that you really want to build capital with the people that you write about. It's really helpful to build relationships. That way, it helps everybody to be able to talk to people and get their side of the story. And I think people, you know, I have a lot of respect for journalists.

I something I was interested in doing at one point. And I think people are just trying to write the story. I the idea that writers are out to get you. I I think that there may be anecdotal cases of that, but I never saw anything like that. And the vast majority of people I saw are doing a job and bringing the story to people. And then last thing I wanted to ask you about, you met your wife at Duke and she became an LPGA player and you caddied for her several times. And since your professional athletic careers overlapped, I imagine that probably wasn't easy from a relationship perspective since you're both traveling to different places all the time. But from a swing mechanics perspective, I mean, were you two working on your swings together?

Do you have thoughts on the golf swing versus the baseball swing? Does it seem like a sport where the ball doesn't move and you just get to hit it whenever you feel like it would be nice? Or does it seem challenging in different ways that you didn't have to face? Oh, it's so hard. I can't hit a golf ball straight. She got me really nice clubs and they're long enough. So I don't have that excuse. And I just I just can't hit them straight or in the air consistently.

What what they do is so hard because you're out there by yourself. You have no teammates to travel with. There's no guy behind you in the order to get a hit if you strike out. It's all on you. So what they do just physically and mentally is incredible. And getting to caddy for just being up close, watching just how hard the game is that they play and how hard it is dealing with the frustrations and failures on the golf course. It's,

it's just incredible. Yeah. Would you be any better if a, if a left-handed person put the ball in the tee than if a right-handed person? It's a good question. Well, your kids should have good swing mechanics and genetics,

I guess, whether they turn out to be golfers or baseball players or neither. They have the background, at least. We'll see what kind of temperament they have. Right now, it looks like they profile as lacrosse players. thus far, and we will be reading you probably more often at Fangraphs or elsewhere. You just did some research. You want to take us out by describing the bullpen piece that you just wrote that I will link to? Oh, thanks. Yeah. Again, I submitted this to the Fangraphs blog. Hopefully we have a chance to see it there, but I had a conversation with Nick Punto in 14 and basically he said, man, it's incredible how much the game's changed. And this was sort of the first I'd heard about it. Now there's been some great writing about how strikeouts and everything are up. And, but that's the first time I heard about it. So I went on fan graphs

and use the data about bullpen usage and took about 10 different things and, and broke it down in a way that you can look at it on one graph. And then basically broke it into three phases, part one, part two, part three. And yeah, we're seeing some unprecedented stuff. There are bullpens now doing stuff that we've really never seen before. Okay. I'm sorry. Now I just have to interject. Nick Ponto slid into first base more than anybody in the history of baseball.

You were at first base. You had a lot of opportunities to watch people get to first base. What would you say to someone like Nick Pudda, who's just sliding into first base all the time? Is it doing anything for him? He's already so small. He's a hard guy to tag. What's your opinion?

He was one of my favorite guys. I only spent a couple months playing with him, but I wish I'd spent more. That's just part of his game. There are stories I'd love to tell about him that I unfortunately can't, but sliding in the first was awesome. We loved watching that. Then he'd pick up the dugout after he'd do something like that, and we'd all be cheering and stuff. He's a great guy. That's clubhouse chemistry, just getting yourself dirty.

Yeah. Well, it's been a pleasure talking to you, and I hope that if you do want to go back and work in baseball at some point that you get to do that, but I hope that if you do want to go back and work in baseball at some point that you get to do that, but I hope you don't do it immediately. Just enjoy business school because it's great for all of us, I think, to have you around and able to talk and not be behind the wall of secrecy that surrounds every front office. It's a resource, I think, for all of us to have a player who is interested in this side of the game and also played the other side of the game. So we're glad that you exist and that you've found your way to Fangraphs. And people can find you on Twitter at Nate Fryman.

And you do some podcasting yourself, right? Where can people hear you? Right. It's sort of a webcast. It's actually live video. So Josh Zide played pitch for the astros tigers he and i were teammates of the team israel a couple times we do this we do this webcast it's on fan cred so like credibility fan cred and you can check us out on the app we're we're noon eastern

on tuesdays we're we've done we've done 12 episodes so far sort of learning that side of it there's a steep learning curve and talking about baseball what you guys do is really hard and i'm learning a lot and we're having a lot of fun about it all right well we will let you go so you can get to a dentist appointment yeah exciting post-playing life thanks for reminding me yep all right well thanks a lot for coming on nate it was a pleasure yeah ben je, thank you guys for having me. So thanks to Nate. Just as with the Dale Scott conversation earlier this week, we felt like we could have talked to him a lot longer,

but we can have him back sometime. It's funny, when we agreed on a time for him to talk to us, he was asking if there was anything he should do to prepare. And I said, no, not really. We'll mostly be talking about your career. You're already an expert in that. But I said, we might ask you about the tall person strike zone. Normally, we would look up some stats, but maybe you want to look up some stats. And he DM'd me about two

minutes later with an R graph that said the tall guy strike zone. And it was a heat map of the strike zone for tall hitters. And I thought, yeah, you're pretty prepared for this podcast. Jeff and I were just saying to each other after the call how much we've enjoyed talking to a lot of the guests we've had on lately. I hope you've all enjoyed listening to them. I know a lot of you are here for the banter. We like the banter too. We like talking to each other. But there are so many other interesting people in the world to talk to,

so we like doing a bit of both. All right, that will do it for today and for this week. We wish Mike Trout's strained finger well. He hurt his finger. He is unable to throw right now, so he is DH-ing. Good that he's still in the lineup, and he did walk three times with a strained finger on Thursday. But since I want his war to be the best ever, I need him to get back in the field. We need that center field positional adjustment.

We need him to be making throws and fielding balls out of zone. Get that defensive run save total up. So please heal well and heal quickly, Mike. You can support the podcast on Patreon by going to patreon.com slash effectivelywild. The following five listeners have already signed up to pledge some small monthly amount. Burke Adams, Tripp von Minden, Robert Milholland, Jonathan Dawe, and Aaron Hartman. Thanks to all of you. You can join our Facebook group at facebook.com slash groups slash effectivelywild.

And you can rate and review and subscribe to Effectively Wild on iTunes. Nate Fryman's in the Facebook group. Everyone who's anyone is in the Facebook group. slash effectively wild and you can rate and review and subscribe to effectively wild on itunes nate fryman's in the facebook group everyone who's anyone is in the facebook group don't know if nate fryman has left an itunes review thanks to dylan higgins for his editing assistance and please keep your questions and comments coming for me and jeff via email at podcast fangrass.com or via the patreon messaging system if you're a supporter have a wonderful weekend and we will talk to you all early next week. In the twilight of my, in the twilight of my, in the twilight of my career.