Effectively Wild: A FanGraphs Baseball Podcast - Effectively Wild Episode 1558: You Have to Tip Your Cap

Episode Date: July 1, 2020

Ben Lindbergh and Meg Rowley banter about the backlash to MLB’s use of the sponsored term “summer camp,” four players’ decisions to opt out of the season, a heartfelt, thought-provoking post by Ian Desmond, and the official cancellation of the minor league season. Then they explain the Negro Leagues theme of this week of Effectively […]

Hello and welcome to episode 1558 of Effectively Wild, the Fangraphs baseball podcast brought to you by our Patreon supporters. I'm Meg Rowley of Fangraphs, and I am joined as always by Ben Lindberg of The Ringer. Ben, how are you? Not too terrible. How are you? I'm okay. Okay. Well, that's better than terrible. Yeah. What are we talking about today, Ben?

Well, there has been some baseball news. It is terrible. Yeah, as expected, it's not going to be the most positive week for news about baseball. It's just players either reporting or not reporting to whatever we're calling the sequel to spring training. Some people are very upset that people have started calling it summer camp, which I feel like Jeff started that, right? I don't know if he started it, but that was the first tweet I saw Jeff dubbed the second spring training, which is not actually taking place in spring, summer camp. And now it's like the official name is summer camp and it has a sponsor and everything, which I guess spring training itself was originally sponsored. So maybe they just transferred the sponsorship over to this. But it's strange to see something that Jeff coined, which I guess other people could have thought of independently. I don't know. But if not, I guess he gave MLB a good idea or what they thought was a good idea. Although some people don't think it's a great idea because it sounds a little flippant perhaps yeah so the first person i saw use that expression was jeff i think that

this is one of those twitter jokes that likely occur to very many people simultaneously because there are only like a thousand references that any of us know and so yeah i didn't find it too flippant. I don't love that it has a sponsor. Yeah. I just, you know, I feel like we've had enough reminders in this year of the money-making engine that drives so much of baseball's decision-making, and we could have just done without one more thing. So that part seems less than good. I guess we're going to keep seeing Camping World ads on MLB TV.

So not even a pandemic can stop the Camping World sponsorships. But yeah, it's I understand why people are saying, oh, it's not fun. It's not summer camp. Players are putting themselves at risk and everything. But I kind of feel like, well, if we have to be super serious about this all the time, then why are we doing this at all? If they're going to war, should we call it basic training or something? It's still baseball. It's still sports. And we've talked a lot about how conflicted we feel about all of this. And so if you're saying, well, they just shouldn't be playing,

period, I am sympathetic to that perspective but if it's do we call it summer camp or do we call it serious players showing up to their jobs that they have decided to do or something you know like if it's not going to be fun then there's no point in doing this like unless it's just to make money for mlb which you know is not something that we care all that much about i think we want to be entertained and we are ambivalent about that and whether we should see this as a sort of recreation. But for me, the criticism is either they shouldn't be there or it's okay, but not really the, well, it's okay if they're there, but we shouldn't call it summer camp criticism.

Yeah. I think that we're all just struggling to find the right tone and tenor with which to proceed. And I think that there are going to be a great many things that are obviously ghoulish. And then there are going to be things that, you know, depending on what else is transpiring in the sport on any given day might feel trivial or sort of failing to grapple appropriately with the weight of the moment at any given time. I do think it's just one of the great challenges of the pandemic and our broader social moment. But, you know, so many small decisions in the face of a pandemic can have just really dire consequences. And I think that we're in that mode of thinking all the time. And so as people who are like professional baseball talkers, it is a little

intimidating to imagine that that now extends to how we talk about our jobs as if there's one more thing, but I guess it kind of does. And so we just have to be understanding that things are going to strike some viewers as inherently problematic because baseball is happening at all. And everything associated with it is going to seem bad and trivial in the face of our greater social and pandemic related ills. And I don't know, we're doing the best we can. I mean, some people are not, to be clear. Some people are doing a terrible job. You should go yell at them if you want. Actually, just log off Twitter.

We should just all not be on Twitter. But we're going to do our very best and try to find our way through. And if we want to direct our ire at anyone, I guess it should be Camping World. Do they sell? It's like they sell like RVs and stuff, right? I assume so. I would never. For as many times as i have heard that camping world is sponsoring something i still have not actually ventured to find out

anything about camping world so i guess the the marketing campaign is not really working in my case but i don't know that i'm really so much in the market for camping products anyway it would be very funny ben if you a person who does not drive a car, bought an RV. I have always kind of thought that I would like an RV. It just seems kind of cozy and you can just take it with you and you can be outside, but also at home at the same time, which are two things that I like. So to combine those things, if I were ever to learn to drive, maybe I'd just pick up an RV, but it'd probably be tough to park in Manhattan. Yeah, I imagine it would be challenging.

Well, like I said, we're not all doing our best, but a good many of us are doing our best. And we mostly just hope that everyone gets through this season healthy and whole. There we go. Yes, yes. And as you were saying, it's impossible to forget the circumstances, not only because we are just bombarded with non-baseball news, but also because there have been a few players who have opted out of the season. And so when we did our last episode, we were speculating about what the response to that would be. And now we've seen, I think, four players who have said that they will not be playing this season. Mike Leak, Joe Ross, Ryan Zimmerman, and Ian Desmond. And

I have not actually seen criticism of them. I assume it exists because I keep seeing tweets that say, don't criticize them, or you should not be criticizing them, which either is a preemptive thing or is in response to people actually criticizing them. I don't know. I've not read the replies because I don't really want to see them. But of course, we support whatever player's decision is if they don't feel comfortable for whatever reason or they have some family or health situation that makes them feel better about not doing that. But Ian Desmond got the most attention because he posted something on Instagram that was just a really lengthy and thoughtful essay about everything he's thinking about baseball right now and some of the problems with the sport and

the reasons why he has decided not to play. And it's like a nine-page Instagram post. It's like the Players' Tribune must have wished that they had this because it's just really well written and has touched on some of the things that some of our guests in recent episodes have brought up, but he did it in a way that was just really eloquent and thought provoking. Yeah, I think that it's an important reminder that, you know, people who are in the game are grappling with a lot of considerations beyond simply their own health and the health and well-being of their families. And I don't say that as if those considerations would not be sufficient in themselves for a player to decide that the risk to reward ratio was not balanced

in such a way that necessitated them playing this year. But baseball players are people, and they exist within our society, a society that's grappling with some very important and heavy questions, not only about the pandemic response, but about social justice and systemic racism and police brutality. And I think that Ian Desmond's words were an important reminder to people that, you know, these guys have obligations that extend far beyond the field and are in many ways much more important than them. And that includes being there to support their families and their communities to survive and work their way through this moment. And those things are very important. And I think he raised some really good questions about whether Major League Baseball

has sort of earned the right to ask the sacrifice of the people that are going to be assuming the risk. And it's clear that the calculus was such for him that this was not worth it. He had other more important things to do and other obligations to people and to his community that were both earned and superseded those that he had to the Rockies. So I hope that people kind of sit with that. I thought that we had a really interesting array of sort of responses yesterday. We had Mike Leak making his decision and then asking people to leave him alone. And I hope that when fans see that, that they will respect that wish because players don't really owe you an explanation. And then when players use this moment to offer their criticism of baseball and the sort of institution that it has created and the culture it has created, that we sit back and listen and

reflect on what they have to say because both of those things seem to run counter to some of the responses on Twitter. I think you're right that in some ways the, hey, let's not criticize players is preemptive, but I also think that beat writers get a lot of nonsense, man. Yes, I'm sure. I think there's a lot of nonsense in beat writer mentions. And so I would not be surprised if we're sitting here saying, we don't need to elevate these people in the discourse. And they're sitting there going like, but how do we keep them out of our Twitters? decision will probably still be a tiny percentage. Just for many, it is not as financially feasible or they're concerned about the repercussions it will have on the rest of their career. And those

are valid reasons to play, just like health and safety are valid reasons to sit out. But I can't imagine that this will be the last set. And I hope that we as media members and fans can continue to, for the most part, rise to the occasion and appreciate the very valid reasons they might have for deciding to stay home. And in other inevitable but still sort of sad news, the minor league baseball season was officially canceled, which we've known that that was coming for a while now. It was pretty clear. We've seen just how difficult it was to get an MLB season started up if that actually comes to fruition. And you can imagine that it would be quite difficult in the minors with the number of players involved, the number of places, the economic incentives not really being there because so much of the business of the minors is people going to games and buying things and eating things.

And none of that is really possible or safely achievable right now. So we all understand why this is happening, but it's still sad to see that it had to happen. And there's been sort of an outpouring of people sharing their memories of minor league baseball and talking about what it means to them. And it really remains to be seen what this will mean for player development in the short term and the long term. We're waiting to see if there will be some sort of Florida Instructional League or Arizona Fall League. Of course, the COVID-19 situations in those states are pretty scary. So it's kind of hard to say what will happen. Some top prospects will be on taxi squads or on big league rosters.

But for the majority of minor leaguers, it's just a lost year of development, at least in terms of gameplay, or it has been to this point. I'm sure Winter League will be quite popular with a lot of players this year. So we'll see what happens with that. And maybe we'll get some announcements or rumors about that in the coming days. But we finally got confirmation, so just kind of wanted to pass that along. Yeah, it's a real bummer. You get why it's happening, but especially for the folks whose livelihoods are bound up in those seasons, you know, more thinking of you today.

It's a hard day. Yeah, as some other people have pointed out, the minor leagues are not just a place for a whole lot of players to play, but it's the place where a lot of people get their starts in baseball in all get in the door, that's a good place to do it. So that really removes one of those routes just because so many minor league employees have been laid off or furloughed. And some of those teams are using their ballparks as Airbnbs or renting them out for events or that sort of thing, but the workforce has really been drastically reduced, and it's not as visible as no games going on, but that's something that really has a big impact on baseball too. It's a shame, and we hope it can recover. Yeah, we sure do. So on a less negative note, we are trying to do something positive with our episodes this week, and we are devoting our episodes to the Negro Leagues, to learning about the Negro Leagues, to celebrating the Negro Leagues, to talking to some experts about the Negro Leagues. And as many of you have seen, hopefully, there is a campaign going on right

now called Tipping Your Cap, where all manner of famous and admired people are taking videos or photos of themselves tipping their cap to the Negro Leagues. There's a website set up. It's all over social media. And this is hopefully an opportunity to revisit leagues and an era of baseball that is not as well known as it should be and talk about some of those great players. And we've done some Negro League centric episodes, but not as many as we should have. And so we will be spending our week doing that. And we've done some Negro League centric episodes, but not as many as we should have. And so we will be spending our week doing that. And there's a lot that I wish I knew that I don't know. And I'm looking forward to learning and talking to some of our guests. So I'm excited

about this. Yeah, I am too. I think I was heartened to see that just because the celebrations, the museum have been somewhat derailed in terms of folks ability to participate in person to the extent that they had originally wanted and certainly that major league baseball had sort of planned to do and to integrate into its programming this year that it is still getting the attention that it merits and that the plans to continue to honor the contributions of these players and instill their history into our broader understanding of baseball history is still very much alive and kicking. And yeah, I look forward to these episodes. I think it's going to be good. Yep. And our first guest who we'll be talking to for most of the rest of this

episode is Bob Kendrick, who is the president of the Negro Leagues Baseball Museum. And he was the one who sort of conceived of and helped spearhead this Tipping Your Cap campaign. And he's just done a lot for the Negro Leagues Museum. Not only that, which he's been associated with for almost three decades now. Of course, it's located in Kansas City, but just in terms of education, awareness, and preservation of Negro League history. And he is just a really engaging guy and a great listen and conversationalist. So we're happy to have him on to kick this off. And so we will not delay that any longer. We are joined now by Bob Kendrick, the president of the Negro Leagues Baseball Museum,

who is a popular man this week, and we're happy to have him. Hi, Bob. How are you? I'm doing great. I am doing great. Thanks so much for having me. Yeah, we're happy to. We're talking to you just a few days after what was supposed to be a day of recognition across MLB of the 100th anniversary of the founding of the Negro Leagues, and no games are going on, of course. So instead, you've got four former presidents and Michael Jordan and Billie Jean King and Stephen Colbert and Rachel Robinson and many other celebrities and luminaries and baseball legends and astronauts even publicly tipping their caps to the Negro Leagues. So that's not a bad substitute. So tell us about how the Tipping Your Cap campaign came together and what you hope it will mean, both for the museum and for appreciation of the Negro Leagues.

Well, as you know, this year marks the 100th anniversary of the birth of the Negro Leagues formed right here in Kansas City in 1920. And so we had a year-long centennial celebration planned, including a National Day of Recognition for the Negro Leagues, which were supposed to take place on June 27th of this year. And of course, coronavirus knocked out all of those plans for the better part. And so this past Saturday, June 27th, we were going to be in all 30 Major League ballparks with an unprecedented National Day of Recognition for the Negro Leagues, a show of solidarity baseball-wide with fans and players and teams literally going to tip their cap to the Negro Leagues. And so they were going to wear our centennial patch.

And for me, I felt all along that it was going to be a watershed moment for Negro Leagues history as well as the Negro Leagues Baseball Museum because this has never happened before. We've had teams that have done Negro Leagues history, as well as the Negro Leagues Baseball Museum, because this has never happened before. We've had teams that have done Negro Leagues, various teams, including here in Kansas City, where the Kansas City Royals do an annual salute to the Negro Leagues in Pittsburgh and Detroit, Baltimore, places like that where they had deep rooted connections to the Negro Leagues, but not all 30 teams on any given day. to the Negro Leagues, but not all 30 teams on any given day. And so this was going to be tremendous.

And, of course, we lost that opportunity because of coronavirus. So I was sitting around mulling over what can we do to try and salvage some portion of this centennial celebration. This is still an important year. Even in the midst of a pandemic and social unrest, what can we do to create a platform for this centennial celebration? And so I came up with this crazy idea of doing a virtual tip of the cap to the Negro League. And as I so oftentimes do whenever I have a crazy idea, I call my good friend, and he's

my brother, even though he's not my biological brother, Joe Posnanski, the great writer. And I called Joe, and I always have these crazy ideas, and he seems to always go with my crazy ideas, even if the ideas drive him crazy. But he's such a great friend and such a great supporter of the museum. Well, I called him and said, hey, man, what do you think about this? And he didn't say it's a crazy idea. As a matter of fact, he said, I love the idea. And then he called his business partner, a tremendous communication strategist out of D.C. area, Dan McGinn. And Dan didn't think it was a crazy idea. He thought it was a great idea. And the three of us went to work. And over basically amounts to a two week turnaround time, we created Tip Your Cap to the Negro League and created it with, you know, this American presidents and Magic Johnson and Michael Jordan and General Colin Powell, Stephen Colbert, Bob Costas, you know, a plethora of Mike Trout, Major League Baseball players, Mike Trout, you know, and even an out of worldly tip of the cap, as you mentioned, from the astronaut in the space shuttle. So this thing, it just took off. And I couldn't be more excited, and I couldn't be more proud that maybe the timing was right. Maybe our country needed a rally

like this, where a multiplicity of people from varying backgrounds could get together around a common cause, and that's to celebrate the winning spirit of the Negro Leagues. And if that can unite us, which it certainly has done, and if it resonates the way that it has, I think it's only fitting because that is really the embodiment of the Negro Leagues. And so it's been a way for us to introduce this to a lot of people. And of course, the fact that you've had so many giving a nod to the richness of this history and what it represented both on and off the field in this country, I think it's endeared this museum to a lot of people. I'm curious if there are any other aspects of your celebration that you're optimistic we might be able to push into the future.

I know it won't be the centennial, but 101 years is an exciting landmark also. Yeah. You know, you understand the nature of not-for-profits. Oh, yeah. We're always looking for an anniversary to hang our hat on. Father, we'll create an anniversary if we think we can raise the money around it. And so, you know, understanding the severity of this pandemic, we had already made a cognizant decision to push the bulk of this celebration over into 2021 anyway.

And so we've already come up with a concept called Negro League 101. 2021 anyway. And so we've already come up with a concept called Negro League 101. And as I was sharing the other day with the writer from The Washington Post, those 101 courses were the only ones in college that I passed. So we're going to. So but that whole concept of educating the nation about the richness of the history of the Negro Leagues and building our celebration around that. So yeah, Negro Leagues 101 will be kind of the theme as we move into next year. And so some of the bigger events that we were planning, we will roll them out next year. Your marketing is on point. I think MLB should hire you maybe just to market the game in general because you've got some good ideas. So I'm curious about how the shutdown and the coronavirus in general affected the museum financially. I know you were able to reopen in the middle of June, but you were closed for a while.

So was that very difficult? And how did you determine when it was time to reopen? very difficult, and how did you determine when it was time to reopen? Man, it was painful. I'm not going to lie. Because again, we're coming off the high of this announcement for the 100th anniversary. We had so much riding on this celebration. And February 13th of this year, we've got the commissioner and all these dignitaries here with us as we launched this centennial celebration. And this was going to be this platform for the museum that was going to propel us into a major fundraising initiative. And, you know, less than a month later, everything came to a crashing halt. And so I would be lying if I said anything other than the fact that it

knocked the wind out of our sails. We were all mightily disappointed. And then, as you mentioned, the museum itself was closed for three months. And we only recently, oh, this is actually our second week of being open again. And, of course, we are having to adhere to whatever the city of Kansas City's guidelines are so once the mayor kind of moved us into a second phase we were able to reopen under some very stringent protocols particularly from a capacity standpoint but at least we have life back in the building and people are slowly but surely starting to come back out again.

And that means a great deal because I think it lifted all of our spirits. And then the success of the Tip Your Cap campaign, I think, raised that spirit to an even higher level. But again, this story is about resiliency. And so if you're going to be a steward of this story, you can't wallow in self-pity. You have to get back up and dust yourself off. And again, use a bad baseball analogy. Coronavirus was that big right-hander that just knocked us down. He threw one high and tight and knocked us down. But you one high and tight and knocked us down.

But you got to get back in the batter's box and dust yourself off and figure out how you can hit it. And I think that's what we've all been motivated to do. And so I think we take great solace in the fact that at least we've got life back into the museum. It's not business as usual, but at least it's business again. And so that kind of changes your mindset. And, you know, I think it has uplifted everybody's vibe. And, you know, we're just excited about having people here. I was saying the other day, the first guest who visited when we reopened two weeks ago today as a matter of fact she was from

Brooklyn New York and she and her husband were just driving through Kansas City he had a meeting in Kansas City so she had some time on her hand and she came out and she was the first visitor to the museum in three months and guys I'm telling you it was like a publisher's clearinghouse moment for me you know I wanted the balloons and relief and the confetti, everything except for a check. Now, I had no check for her. But, you know, we wanted to welcome her with open arms. Of course, you can't hug anymore.

But, you know, we wanted her to feel the warmth of being welcomed to the Negro Leagues Baseball Museum. And then while I didn't have great expectations in terms of numbers, I have to say that it has exceeded my expectations as people are making their way back here to the museum again. There's been so much wonderful scholarship around the Negro Leagues. But for our listeners who are less familiar with them or haven't had a chance to visit the museum yet, could you give them some insight into the history of what actually happened in 1920? What was black baseball like before then? And what was the origin story of the Negro Leagues? Yeah, no, it started because there's long been black baseball.

You know, we've been playing baseball going back to the 18, late 1800s. And there's some remnants of us playing baseball as enslaved people. So it was not a new phenomenon for black folks to play baseball. It didn't have an organized body. And so you had a lot of independent black baseball teams trying to compete with booking agents taking all of the money. And there had been a couple of efforts to even create and organize Negro Leagues, but they failed. But in 1920, under the guidance of Andrew Rube Foster, the genius, he came and convened a meeting with eight independent black baseball team owners into Kansas City, and they created the Negro National League,

the first successful organized black baseball league. The Negro Leagues would then go on to operate amazingly for 40 years, from 1920 until 1960, which, of course, surprises a lot of people because most can relate to the fact that Jackie Robinson breaks baseball's color barrier in 1947. And I think the assumption is if Jackie breaks the color barrier in 1947, if there was a Negro Leagues, surely it would have ended in and around that time. Well, the leagues operated for another 13 years. Why? Because it took Major League Baseball 12 years before every Major League team had at least one black baseball player. The Boston Red Sox would become the last team to integrate in 1959 when they signed Pumps and Green. So that is what afforded the Negro Leagues a chance to operate, and it operated with a great deal of success. Negro Leagues baseball became the third largest

black-owned business in this country, only trailing black-owned insurance companies who emerged during that era and would insure African Americans more than the 10 or 15 cents that the white insurance companies would insure us. Essentially, the white insurance companies would insure me just enough to bury me, 10, 15 cent policy. Well, black-owned insurance companies came about not only insuring my livelihood, but insuring my stock, insuring my crop, insuring my home, and as a result, made millions of dollars. Next was Madam C.J. Walker. Madam C.J. Walker, guys, would become this country's first self-made businesswoman millionaire of any skin color. And you know how she did it?

Doing black hair. Madam C.J. had schools of cosmetology in virtually every major urban center in this country, becoming the first woman to earn a million dollars with a business structure. Next was Negro League Baseball, as my dear friend, the late, great John Buck O'Neill, would say, all you needed was a bus, two sets of uniforms, and you'd have 20 of the greatest athletes who ever played. They could play. And really, y'all, their contemporaries knew that they could play.

It was just simply the social conditions of our time and fear that kept them out of the major leagues. But it all begins here in Kansas City, right around the corner from where the Negro League Museum operates, the Paseo YMCA. Matter of fact, we own that building and have been restoring that National Historic Landmark to expand our operations into the very building that gave birth to the story we're now in we're preserving. It will become the future Buck O'Neill Education and Research Center. I've heard you say elsewhere that as good as you or anyone else might be at telling the story of the Negro Leagues, there's no perfect substitute for getting it straight from the source, right? The players who were there and who played in the leagues. And of course, over the past few decades,

sadly, we've lost a lot of those players. And I wonder how the museum and other historians have gone about preserving those first-person accounts and how much oral history has been saved and archived. Yeah, because you're right. We knew from the onset. This museum is 30 years old now. We're celebrating our 30th anniversary this year. So when we started the process of building a Negro Leagues Museum, we knew then that it was literally going to be a race against time, that the people who made this history, it wasn't a matter of if, it was simply a matter of when they all were going to be gone. And not only were they going to be gone, but the people who watched them play were going to be gone.

And so it became really important that we try to document and substantiate as much of this history as we possibly could in an effort to maintain that story and that history. And so, yeah, we went about our business of trying to collect as much information, you know, like I said, as we could in terms of oral histories. And we were fortunate enough to get some funding that allowed us to do some oral history. So we probably have, I don't know, 60, 70 sit down interviews with folks. We've been able to acquire more stuff through time. And, you know, so it's still a challenge because, again, you know, the people who were there were losing them. And so it puts that much pressure on the museum because every time we lose a player, that window of opportunity, of course, closes. And how much of an obstacle is

it to preservation and to bringing these stories to life that the Negro Leagues weren't as well covered by contemporary writers and sources as white baseball was? Yeah, and I think that's been one of the biggest things in terms of getting viable, accountable information is that simply they didn't have that widespread coverage. Because if they weren't playing in a town that had black press, you had virtually no coverage. Right. And so, yeah. And so there's always been this misnomer about the fact that there weren't adequate records kept. Well, they were kept, but you just didn't have anybody to document it. And so a lot of these things were lost over time. Whereas in the major leagues, virtually anything about the major leagues was documented by somebody, you know, and you had the newspapers there to document everything that you needed so you could learn everything about the major leagues, but not the Negro Leagues.

So you relied a lot on lore and legend and oral histories to bring this story to life. to bring this story to life. Now, granted, historians have done a much better job over the last 20 years of researching Negro Leagues baseball history and trying to pull together more, I think, verifiable statistical data. And you know our sport. It is a wonderful game of comparison and statistics. But the statistics aren't as readily available as they are for Major League Baseball.

And so sometimes when you talk about these almost mythical-like figures in the Negro Leagues, people look at you with kind of an air of skepticism. You know, well, maybe Josh Gibson was good, but I don't know if he was that good. You know, Kool Popper Bell was fast, but I don't know if he was that fast. And so you always deal with that in our world, and that's okay. That's okay. You know, our job is to kind of help paint the picture for the quality of play.

But I tell people all the time, and I don't know if they pay me any attention or not, if you want to look and get an understanding of how good the Negro Leagues were, just stop for a few minutes and think about who the two greatest living Major Leaguers are, Willie Mays and Henry Aaron. Both of them come out of the Negro Leagues. So is it really that far-fetched that there just might have been players better than they were that played in the Negro Leagues? They came from that same league.

They were good young players when they moved into the Major Leagues who became two of the biggest stars in Major League Baseball history. And then you've got the litany of other black stars who transitioned from the Major Leagues who became stars. So it's not really that far-fetched to think that there might have been others who were just as good or better than they were. But so many are of the mindset that if it didn't happen in the major leagues, then it didn't happen. And we're here to tell you, yes, it did. And it happened in its full glory. Yeah, I'm curious, as researchers go about trying to better tell that story, they obviously look to the museum as, I would imagine, a tremendous resource. You've already mentioned the Buck O'Neill Education and Research Center. What is the museum's relationship like with baseball research and its community? How have you guys served as a resource for them as they try to better tell these stories and illuminate some of those incredible performances that might be a bit murky for some contemporary baseball fans.

Yeah, you know, and it's really it is really interesting because they've been as helpful to us as we've probably been to them. Because, you know, when we first started this project, it was really about building an attraction. You have to pique your interest in this subject matter. And so now it starts the next phase of evolution, and that is building an institution. And that's where the research component of this becomes so vitally important. We've whet your appetite now with the attraction, but now we want to have more substantive kinds of content and information that people can draw from. And so we've worked readily with a number of historians across the country who have fallen in love with Negro Leagues history. You know, one of the most interesting ones is the Donaldson Network, which has done a tremendous job of going through and really bringing back,

bringing out the legacy of the great Negro Leagues pitcher, John Donaldson. They, through their research over, I mean, tireless research over a number of years, have over 400 verifiable wins and epic feats that are just mind-boggling. So then they bring this quantitative research to the forefront. And then, you know what the skeptics say? Well,

he wasn't playing against good competition. He was beating everybody, you know, anybody that was playing, then he was beating them. But, you know, so that's the, that's the world of Negro League.

you know, so that's the world of Negro Leagues, though. Right. You know, I think there's always this doubt because we just succumb to the notion that this league couldn't have been as good as the Major Leagues. I think the hardest thing for people to understand is that there were two professional baseball leagues operating simultaneously to one another. One that gave us the best white athlete an opportunity to showcase his world-class baseball ability the major leagues the other the negro league did the exact same thing for the best black and hispanic ball player to showcase their world-class baseball ability but both of them were very much professional and i tell people the only thing that separates the negro leagues from the major leagues finances major leagues were funded they had their own stadiums and so and the negro that separates the Negro Leagues from the Major League? Finances. Major Leagues were better funded.

They had their own stadiums. And the Negro Leagues only had maybe two or three owners that had their own stadiums. And so that's the fundamental difference was the resources. But the quality of play? Oh, no. It wouldn't take a backseat to any league. Yeah, for anyone who wants to learn more about John Donaldson, we did an interview about him on episode 1141.

So go check that out. And that kind of brings up a question that I wanted to ask you. Are there any other particular players like that that you have a soft spot for or who you wish got greater recognition? And we're going to talk about Oscar Charleston on the show later this week, but players who don't have the name recognition of, say, Satchel Paige or Josh Gibsonestro, the master, because he could do it all. Played all nine positions, played all nine of them well. He was the only baseball player in the history of our sport to be enshrined into five different countries' baseball halls of fame. He's in the Mexican, Cuban, Venezuelan, Dominican, and in Cooperstown. Tremendous baseball player.

One year in the Mexican league, guys. He goes 19-2 with an 0.90 ERA. The sucker hits.387 that same season and won the batting title. That just don't make any sense. But he's not a household name. But he should be. Now, if you come out of Cuba, you know the name Martin DeHigo. But most mainstream baseball fans have never heard the name before.

And there are countless others like that who played in the Negro Leagues. And so when people got so excited about the phenomena of Shohei Atani, when he joined the Los Angeles Angels as this two-way phenomenon. It gave me an opportunity now to start talking about the Martin DeHegos in the world who was likely the most versatile baseball player in baseball history and the other stars of the Negro Leagues who were great two-way players because, again, in the Negro Leagues,

the pitchers were great athletes. And so because of the roster size is one as large as Major League Baseball, you needed versatility. So most of the pitchers in the Negro Leagues, when they weren't pitching, they were playing another position. So the Leon Days of the world and the Hilton Smiths of the world, the Bullet Joe Rogans of the world in the Negro League, man, they can win you 20 games, but then they're going to play great defense in the outfield

and they're going to hit you over 300. This was pretty commonplace in the Negro League. And so, you know, it takes those kinds of moments, though, to give us an opportunity to elevate that level of awareness with baseball fans. For those who haven't had a chance to visit the museum, what are a few of your favorite artifacts that are in the museum's collection? Well, there's some pretty cool stuff. Most recently, we acquired a gold pocket watch that belonged to Satchel Paige. It was given to Satchel Paige by the great African-American newspaper, the Chicago Defender, in 1942. And it is inscribed on the back,

it was Satchel Paige Day at Wrigley Field in a rare Negro Leagues game held at Wrigley. As you probably know, most of the Negro Leagues games were played on the south side in Comiskey. But there was a rare Negro Leagues game between the Kansas City Monarchs and the Memphis Red Sox at Wrigley Field, and it's a satchel page day. And the an amazing piece because it's timeless. And it's just like Satchel who was ageless. You know, and so it's a wonderful piece for people to enjoy. There are a couple of very rare pieces. We've got a baseball that's signed by Jackie Robinson, Jr., Gilliam, Joe Black, and Roy Campanella on one side.

Of course, all played in the Negro Leagues, then joined forces with the Brooklyn Dodgers. The guys on the other side, the ball is signed by Ty Cobb. And as I tell people all the time, yes, the Negro Leagues Museum found a home for Ty Cobb. And my friend, late Jay Buckle, Neil would say,

whimsically, I know Cobb signed that ball first. So on that topic of, of items in the museum, a lot of teams and players have made a point of visiting the museum and making pilgrimages in recent years when they've been in town to play the Royals. And have there been any particular exhibits or artifacts that you've noticed really resonating with the new generation of players or that they've found to be particularly illuminating to them as they've explored the history of the Negro Leagues? And do you find that a lot of the younger guys get involved and are interested in the museum's mission?

Yeah, no, we're seeing more and more of the young athletes coming to visit the museum. And that's another one of the aspects of having the devastation of coronavirus impact our business in such a way, because now baseball season would have normally been in full swing. And we would, with the anniversary that we're celebrating, we would have saw a lot of teams visiting the Negro Leagues Museum. But, you know, I think they just, they gain an understanding and appreciation what others had to go through to play this game.

And as I share with my young athletes, the one common denominator that they share with the players who played in the Negro Leagues, very simply, love of the game. You play the game because you love it. Now, sometimes we as fans can get a little fickle, and we don't think that the current players love the game as much as players of yesteryear because we equate everything in our society to money. And yes, they are afforded to make a great living, but they're still playing a game that they would have played for free and they did play it for

free when they were a kid. So yeah, they love the game. But as I share with them, you will never see a greater example of love of the game than you do when you visit the Negro Leagues Baseball Museum. They had to love the game in order to endure the things that they had to endure. So when they come in and they learn that it wasn't uncommon for these athletes to go into a town, fill up the ballpark, yet not be able to get a meal from the same fans who had just cheered them or not have a place to stay. So they would sleep on the bus and eat that peanut butter and crackers until they could get to a place that would offer them basic services. But what you have to admire here is they never allowed that adversity to kill their love of the game. So if I've got to sleep on the bus and if I've got to eat my peanut butter and crackers, then so be it.

I'm going to keep playing ball. And I think that spirit resonates with them because they know how difficult this game is to play under the best of circumstances. No less the hardships in which these players had to play this game. Yet they seem to maintain their joy for this game. And then they marvel at the old equipment, and both major leaguers and Negro leaguers are using the same old equipment, and to think, again, the tools of the trade were so different than what they work with now.

I'll never forget, guys. I'm in San Diego. I'm at Petco Park. Dave Winfield used to host, for 10 years, a wonderful salute to the Negro Leagues. And this particular year, Orlando Hudson was with the Padres, and O-Dog is taking me and a group of Negro League players on a tour of the facilities at Petco.

Now, these old Negro League players are walking through the locker room area, and they're seeing hot tubs and cold tubs, and, you know, you've got a catering kitchen, you've got a chef, and you've got this weight room, and there's a guy sitting on the trainer's table, and the trainer was massaging his side. And so one of the Negro League players asked him, said, well, you know, what's wrong with him? He said, oh, well, he's on the disabled list.

He's got a strained oblique. And the Negro League player looked at him. He said, hell, I didn't even know I had an oblique. So you ain't going to be out for no strained oblique. That ain't going to keep you out of the lineup because you might not get your job back. You've been affiliated with the museum since, I believe, since your days with the Kansas City Star. I imagine you've had the opportunity to interact with many of the museum's visitors, both civilians and then also baseball and cultural luminaries who have come through.

And I'm curious if there have been any of those interactions that were particularly meaningful to you personally. No, a lot of them. A lot of them. I mean, I enjoy every time. Every time I get one of the young athletes, it never gets old for me. And maybe that's that transitioning from Buck O'Neill, who used to do so many of these when people were coming here, particularly athletes and other notables.

But for me, I carry that same spirit. It just never gets old for me. So every athlete, I don't care if they are a superstar or a guy who is a rookie in this game. It still just kind of excites me every time and I just love sharing the history and imparting this story with them because that's what this game is all about. You know, no sport holds to its history the way baseball does. And it's still the most romanticized sport of them all. You know, we mark periods in our lives by baseball. And inevitably, you remember your first baseball game more so than you do with any other of the sports. People remember their first baseball game.

And whoever your favorite ball player was when you were a kid likely going to be your favorite baseball player for the rest of your life. And so for me it's Henry Aaron. And so Henry Aaron is my all-time favorite tour because Henry Aaron is my all-time favorite tour because Henry Aaron is my all-time favorite baseball player. And I idolized Henry Aaron growing up as a kid in tiny Crawfordville, Georgia, a town of about 500 people. And so when Henry Aaron hits record home run 715 in Atlanta, Fulton County Stadium, I'm in Crawfordville, Georgia. As he's circling the bases there, I'm circling the bases in my mother's living room. So the couch was first base, the old TV was second base, the other old couch was third

base, and her recliner was home plate. So as my idol was touching them all in Atlanta, Florida County Stadium, I'm touching them all in Crawfordville, Georgia. And I shared the story with him. And guys, we've had so many wonderful people visit the museum, including American presidents, Bill Clinton and George W. Bush, First Ladies Laura Bush, Michelle Obama, General Colin Powell, a plethora of athletes and entertainers. And I always say with no disrespect, none of them are Henry Aaron, not in my eyes. He is still the only person I've ever been starstruck around. And I'm still starstruck every time I'm around the great Henry Aaron because I'm reduced to that nearly 12-year-old kid that's circled the bases in his mother's living room. But no, for me, every person that comes, no matter what they do, is so important.

And I enjoy it immensely. And I love seeing their reactions to this. But one of my favorite stories, the Royals every year bring their minor league pitchers and players of the year to the Negro Leagues Museum. And it's become kind of a ritual now. It's an annual tradition. And so this particular year, the late Giordano Ventura,

God bless his soul, we lost him way too early. He's in AA baseball when he makes his pilgrimage over to the Negro Leagues Museum with his fellow pitchers of the year and players of the year of that particular season. And the Royals had an interpreter

with them because he didn't speak like they do with all their Hispanic athletes because they don't speak very good English. And so I'm telling Satchel Paige stories. And he's enamored with Satchel Paige. Well, as you may know, the centerpiece of the Negro Leagues Museum is what we call the Field of Legends.

And it's a mock baseball diamond with 10 life-size statues of Negro League greats in their cast and position as if they were playing a game. They represent 10 of the first group of Negro Leaguers to be inducted into the National Baseball Hall of Fame. Well, Satchel is on the mound. So when we get to the field, he goes over to the statue of Satchel Paige, and he rubs elbows with Satchel. Well, if you recall, that year he gets promoted from AA straight to the major leagues.

And guys, he swore that rubbing elbows with Satchel Paige earned him that promotion to the big leagues. So he told all of his fellow Dominican teammates, when you come to the Negro Leagues Museum, you rub elbows with satchel. So now me and my big mouth, I started telling the opposing team this story. And so the first year, it was James Paxson. He's pitching for the Seattle Mariners. And I'm taking Dee Gordon and James on a tour of the museum. I tell James the story. So what does James do?

Goes over, rubs elbows with satchel. We couldn't touch him. And he goes on and has a great season. And this past season, it was Lucas Giolito, Chicago White Sox fan. I tell Lucas the story. What does he do? He goes over.

He rubs elbows with satchel. He almost no hit us that Sunday. And then he has a great season. I even told a little 12-year-old girl who was playing softball. I told her the story. Her mother said, you go over there and rub elbows with satchel. She throws a shout out that day. Her mom and daddy came back. They were so excited. So I tell people all the time, you might want to rub elbows with satchel because I still think there's some magic left in that elbow. how great these guys were at baseball, and we've also touched on the hardships that they faced at the time. And I wonder how you kind of conceive of the museum's role in shedding light on those dual legacies, their sort of inseparable legacies of the Negro Leagues, just how great these guys were and the prejudice and the segregation. Yeah, because we want you to understand the backdrop in which they were operating. Segregation was a horrible chapter in this country's history. But really the story here is out of segregation, rose this wonderful story of triumph and conquest,

and it's all based on one small, simple principle. You won't let me play with you, Then I will create a league of my own. And that's what makes this story so special, so compelling, so awe-inspiring. Because they never cried about the social injustice. They went out and did something about it. And so you couldn't convince these guys that they weren't playing the best baseball that was being played. Now, everybody else thought, the world thought that the best baseball was being played in the major leagues, but you couldn't convince the Negro League that they weren't playing the best

baseball that was being played. And so it was simply those social conditions of our time that kept them out of the major leagues and fear. Fear had just as much to do with this. So yes, it's important that you paint a backdrop for what the times were like. But what we've done by and large, man, there's nothing sad or somber about the story. We treat it as if it is a celebration because it is just that. It is the celebration of the power of the human spirit to persevere and prevail. And I think people walk away with that very triumphant-like feeling when you come here. Yeah, so for those who think they're going to be introduced to a sad slumber story, no, you got the wrong place. No, it is truly a celebration. And so that's why I say this story embodies the American spirit, unlike any story in the annals of American history. So, yes, America was trying to prevent them from sharing in the joys of her so-called national pastime.

But it was the American spirit that allowed them to persevere and prevail. I was going to ask you, obviously, the centennial, as you mentioned, is coming in a summer where we are seeing and reckoning with systemic racism and violence in this country. And we have seen protests and calls for reform. And it's incredibly disappointing and disheartening that some of the same social conditions that existed at the time of the Negro League still persist to this day. I'm curious how you sort of think about the museum's role in that conversation and sort of understanding, as you said, of the American spirit. What can we draw from the museum in terms of sort of how we might embrace change and action going forward? Well, I think if there's any gratifying aspect of this entire ordeal that we've been dealing with as it relates to the social unrest in our country, is that people have really turned to the Negro Leagues Baseball Museum, which means that they understand that this museum is a social justice museum. This museum is a civil rights museum. Yes. It's a scene through the lens of baseball, but it's a very triumphant kind of

experience. Because I think if you want to completely understand the Black experience in this country, you can't just see the downtroddenness of my experiences. It can't only be your interpretation or impression of me, can't just be me being sprayed with water hoses or the dogs being released on me or the police brutality of that era of segregation and the civil rights movement. You need to know my success stories as well. And the Negro Leagues represent that great success story. But I think embodied within the realm of the story of the Negro Leagues, story, but I think embodied within the realm of the story of the Negro Leagues, it kind of creates a commonality. And I think that's so important because I really do believe that the more we learn about

one another, the easier it is for us to get along with one another because what we find is that we have far more in common than we do differences. But what we hope through these kinds of cultural experiences is that it doesn't make you afraid of those who don't talk like me, don't act like me, don't worship the way that I do. We should be celebrating our differences. Those are the things that make us unique. But by and large, we have so much more in common and so can a museum like this create a level of tolerance and respect i absolutely believe that it does and so i think it plays an important role as we move forward with trying to help create a level of social justice in this country

through the lens and history of the Negro Leagues and those who overcame tremendous social adversity to go on to greatness. And not long before we called you, the Associated Press reported that some former recipients of the MVP award were expressing their dismay that Kennesaw Mountain Landis' name is still on the MVP plaque. And it seems like there's a growing desire for his name to be removed in large part because of the role he played as commissioner in codifying and extending segregation in baseball. And we're seeing a lot of cultural institutions grapple with their past and who they honor and how they present these ugly eras of their history. And I wonder whether

you think there are other remnants of baseball's past or manifestations of its present that you think we should revisit and perhaps change? Well, I do think that this renewed level of cognizant and realization of things that have been happening in our society for quite some time, but it's been such an awakening for so many that it will cause us to look at things a little bit differently. And perhaps the things that represent not so much diversity and inclusion in our society, people will likely look at those things to determine whether or not they are still hurtful in the minds of many. to determine whether or not they are still hurtful in the minds of many. And so, you know, Kennesaw Mountain Landers made it very clear there would never be a black man playing in the major leagues as long as he was commissioner.

But he was also governing over a league that was all white at that time. And so it'll be interesting to see what happens along this path, you know, as we start to address those things that might be reminding of things that are hurtful. Now, obviously, as a museum that is built upon history, I think we always have to be careful eradicating history, even when it's bad, because we have to be reminded sometimes. because we have to be reminded sometimes. But again, when these things are celebratory or they're symbols of hurt for others, I think we'll always have to address that and make some really difficult decisions somewhere along the line on if we're going to eliminate that. You've been responsible for expanding many of the museum's educational programs. In the summer when it might be harder for folks to travel to the museum,

how you would recommend people learn more about the Negro Leagues if they can't make their way to Kansas City? Yeah, you know, we know that our business is going to be tremendously impacted because folks are just not going to be venturing out the way that they would. So we won't be getting that great foot traffic from those coming into Kansas City. Obviously, we're putting an increased focus on trying to get people at home to move around their city and people within the state of Missouri to get active and move around with day trips and that kind of thing. But we've been doing a lot of digital content. We've been doing a lot of online presentations and that kind of thing to help connect people with the Negro

League Baseball Museum. And quite frankly, even after we moved out of this COVID-19 situation, I think that will become a part of our business model because it has allowed us to connect with people with programming that we never would have in a live capacity prior. Our thinking wasn't geared that way. You know, as a museum, you're always trying to figure out how can I get as many people to experience this in a physical capacity? How many people can I push through that sometimes you lose a little sight about this technological aspect that opens up the museum to a lot of people? Now, the one thing that doesn't change, though, is the emotional connection that you have when you're here.

that doesn't change, though, is the emotional connection that you have when you're here. I don't know if I can create that emotional connection, but in terms of introduction and educational understanding of the Negro Leagues, the virtual component is something that we're definitely looking at. I'm going to need to get the museum in a virtual reality setup, maybe, so that we can all visit from our homes. So lastly, how can people participate in this current campaign, and how can they support the museum, whether financially or with awareness or however else? Absolutely. And we encourage people to join, become a member of the Negro Leagues Baseball Museum.

You can visit www.nlbm.com. You can make a donation to the museum museum or you can become a member of this museum. And for me, when you become a member of an organization, that is like becoming a stakeholder in that organization. You have committed yourself to saying every year I'm going to make a contribution. And it doesn't matter what the amount of the contribution is,

but I believe in the cause and I want to see it sustain itself. And so there are any number of ways that you can support the museum. If anybody has artifacts or any interesting items that they want to share with the museum, we're always out there combing, looking for pieces to bring into the fold because there's always a story behind those artifacts. And as it relates to this fun tip Your Cap to the Negro Leagues campaign, we're encouraging people to either take a picture or a short video of themselves tipping their cap. And then you can post it to photos at tippingyourcap.com.

And then we encourage you to also post it to your social media. And we've got the hashtag tipyourcap2020. And so, you know, we encourage you to join this effort i i it started off as a campaign guys it's become a movement and this movement is growing like crazy so we would love to have you all tip your cap in recognition of the 100th anniversary of the negro Leagues. Well, we tip our caps to you for organizing this and making it such a success. And you can find Bob on Twitter at NLBMPrez, that's P-R-E-Z. And of course, we will link to all of these pages in the Negro Leagues Baseball Museum website so that you can go check it out at your leisure.

And again, thank you very much for taking the time to talk to us today. Hey, guys. Thanks so much for having me. Well, you heard Bob mention the beloved Buck O'Neill a couple times, and of course Buck comes up in almost every conversation about the museum or about the Negro Leagues, as he should. He was a first baseman and manager mostly for the Kansas City Monarchs, and he became a scout and then the first black coach in Major League Baseball. He helped establish the museum, and he was a great ambassador for it and for the Negro Leagues in general. And he was just

a universally cherished person. Maybe you've read Joe Posnanski's book about him, The Soul of Baseball. And I thought it might make sense to end this episode with Buck himself speaking at the Hall of Fame. He gave sort of a classic speech a few months before he died. This was in the summer of 2006 and 17 figures from the Negro Leagues were getting This was in the summer of 2006, and 17 figures from the Negro Leagues were getting inducted into the Hall of Fame, unfortunately not including Buck himself, and he delivered the opening remarks. It's about a seven-minute speech. Kind of gives you a sense of who he was as a person and why he was so well-liked, and his message in the speech is, well, timely for any time, really, but particularly timely for now. So take it away, Buck O'Neill.

I've done a lot of places. I've done a lot of things that I really like doing. I hit the home run. I hit the Grand Slam home run. I hit for the cycle. I've had a hole in one in golf. I've done a lot of things I like doing. I shook hands with President Truman. Yeah. Oh, man. I shook hands with the other president, and I am going to hug his wife, Hillary. So I've done a lot of things I like doing, but I'd rather be right here, right now, representing

these people that helped build a bridge across the chasm of prejudice. Not just the ones like Charlie Pride and me that laid a cross. Yeah, this is quite an honor for me. See, I played in the Negro Leagues. Tell you what, the Negro Leagues was nothing like Hollywood tried to make it. The Negro Leagues was the third largest black business in this country.

Yeah. First, black insurances, the white insurances, 10-cent policy, just enough to bury us. Uh-huh. But the black insurances insured our crops, our homes. Yeah. Our stock. They made millions. Next. Madam C.J. Walker. Cosmetology. You see that pretty hair over there?

Don't you see it? Oh, Mrs. Robinson? Tell you what. Yeah, that's right. Yeah. Yeah. Madam C.J. Walker was doing that a hundred years ago, and she made millions, to tell you the truth. Madam C.J. Walker was the first black woman millionaire in this country. And to tell you, Madam C.J. Walker might have been the first woman millionaire in the country that earned it. They had other women millionaires, but they inherited the money. Madam C.J. Walker earned it.

Next, Negro League Baseball. All you needed was a bus, and we rode in some of the best buses money could buy. Yeah, and a couple of sets of uniforms. You could have 20 of the best athletes that ever lived. And that's who we are representing here today. It was outstanding. And playing in the Negro Leagues, what a lot of you don't know, see, when I played in the Negro Leagues, I first came to the Negro Leagues,

5% of Major League ballplayers were college men because the major leaguers want them right out of high school. Put them in the minor leagues, bring them on in. But Negro Leagues, 40% of Negro Leaguers were college men. The reason that was, we always spring trained in a black college town. And that's who we played in spring training, the black colleges.

So when school was out, they came play baseball. When baseball season was over, they'd go back to teaching, to coaching, or to classes. That was Negro League baseball. And I'm proud to have been a Negro League ball player. Yeah, yeah. to have been a Negro League ball player. Yeah. Yeah. And I tell you what,

they always say to me, Buck, I know you hate people for what they did to you or what they did to your folks. I said, no, man, I never learned to hate. I hate cancer. Cancer killed my mother.

My wife died 10 years ago of cancer. I'm single, ladies. A good friend of mine, I hate AIDS. A good friend of mine died of AIDS three months ago. I hate AIDS. But I can't hate a human being because my God never made anything ugly. Now, you can be ugly if you want a boy, but God didn't make you that way. Uh-uh. So I want you to light this valley up this afternoon. Martin said, agape is understanding, creative, a redemptive goodwill toward all men. Agape is an overthrowing love which seeks nothing in return. And when you reach love on this level, you love all men,

and return and when you reach love on this level you love all men not because you like them not because their ways appeal to you but you love them because God loved them and I love Jehovah my God with all my heart with all my soul and I love every one of you as I love myself now I want you to do something for me. I'm treating to get off this stage now. I think I've done my six minutes but I want you to do something for me. I want you to hold hands whoever's next to you. Hold a hand. Come on you Hall of Famers. Hold hands. All you people out there, hold hands. Everybody hooked up? Everybody hooked up? Well, and I tell you what. See, I know my brothers up here, my brothers over there. I see some black

brothers of mine and sisters out there. I know they can sing. Can you white folks sing? I want you to sing after me. The greatest thing. Come on, everybody. The greatest thing. And all my life. Is loving you. The greatest thing. And all my life is loving you. The greatest thing in all my life is loving you.

The greatest thing in all my life is loving you. Thank you, folks. Thank you, folks. Thank you, folks. Thank you, folks. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you.

Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Now sit down. Now sit down. I could talk to you 10 minutes longer, but I got to go to the bathroom. Okay, thanks to Bob and thanks to Buck. That will do it for today. You can support the podcast on Patreon by going to patreon.com slash effectively wild. The following five listeners have already signed up and pledged some small monthly amount to help keep the podcast going and get themselves access to some perks. Noah Warren, David Barry, Scott Moeller, Al Green, and Jesse Seiler. Thanks to all of you. You can join our Facebook group at facebook.com slash group slash Effectively Wild. You can rate, review, and subscribe to Effectively Wild on iTunes and other podcast platforms. Keep your questions and comments for me and Meg and Sam coming via email at podcastatfangraphs.com or via the Patreon messaging system if you are a supporter. Thanks to Dylan Higgins for his editing assistance. And we will be back with another Negro League-centric episode soon. Talk to you then. Sweet and strange Seemed about a hundred years ago Mary and I

We were set up on a gate Just gazing at Sun, ground and the sky What tender days we had No secrets in the way We seemed about a hundred years ago