Effectively Wild: A FanGraphs Baseball Podcast - Effectively Wild Episode 164: Dan Evans on Being a Baseball Renaissance Man and His New Job with the Blue Jays

Episode Date: March 21, 2013

Ben and Sam talk to former Los Angeles Dodgers General Manager Dan Evans about his history as a baseball renaissance man and his new roles with the Toronto Blue Jays and the Northern League.

Well, the only way we get through it every day is by convincing ourselves nobody is listening, because otherwise we would be petrified. Why do you think I'm doing it? Good morning, and welcome to episode 164 of Effectively Wild, the daily podcast from Baseball Perspectives. I'm Sam Miller with Ben Lindberg, and today we're actually joined by a guest. Dan Evans is a columnist for Baseball Perspectives. He is a longtime baseball man.

He is the guy who drafted Matt Kemp in the sixth round when he was the GM of the Los Angeles Dodgers. And he, as of a few weeks ago, is the proud owner of two new titles. He is the commissioner of the Northern League and Independent League. And he is something for the Northern League and independently, and he is something for the Toronto Blue Jays. Although he's, Dan is kind of at that like sort of level where you never quite know exactly what his job is. So Dan, can you kind of give us an idea of what your job is going to be for the Blue Jays? Well, first of all, it's great to join you guys. I really have

enjoyed your podcast, really enjoyed working with you guys for the last year. I'm in a great spot with the Blue Jays guys. They're a very, I would say, revolutionary organization when it comes to scouting and really respect veteran opinions, of which I guess I'm a veteran now. And Alex Anthopoulos and Perry Manassian approached me and asked me if I'd like to have a wide-ranging role where I evaluate a lot of major league, minor league players. I'll go through our organization in depth starting in April. And to be honest with you guys, whatever they need me to do, I'm ready. Right now I'm in spring training, watching all of the 15 clubs,

trying to zero in on five or six teams in particular that I don't know as well as the others. But candidly, it's been a really fun whirlwind first month. And as I was told in San Francisco over the weekend, I think I have to get a larger business card. You have done just about everything. In fact, before this, you were working as a player agent. So you've pretty much now been on every side of the game, right? Yeah, and you know what?

It's really been fun. I just have to be really honest with you. Being able to wear all those different hats over the course of my career has been really enjoyable, very rewarding, but it also gives me a real keen feel for both sides of the table. Having been an agent for four years gave me extraordinary insight as to what's going on and how the 30 organizations are doing things. It gave me a great awareness of the major league, minor league, international, and amateur markets because you just have to

focus on all of them. But really what I've been able to do, and luckily I've been able to do a lot of different roles. And, you know, one thing I've never been accused of is having a boring profession. And, you know, a lot of people get locked into roles and they just wake up every day and they do it the same way every day. What I've been able to do over the course of three decades is do a lot of different things at every different level. And, you know, guys, I'll tell you, that gives me a real solid feel for what's going on and how it gets done. And that makes it a lot of fun for me. Has that been a conscious choice where after you've been doing a certain thing for a certain amount of time,

you feel like trying something new and you actively look for a new role? Or is it just something that's sort of happened organically? You know what, it's a little bit of both. It's kind of a hybrid. And my thing is, I'm not afraid of challenges, never have been, never have been a guy who's overly concerned about failing. I just don't operate that way. I always think that there's going to be some failure in everything you do, but if you learn from it and get better at it, I'll try it. And that's how my whole career has gone.

I just took on roles and things, and people have pursued me since being a general manager of the Dodgers. I've just been pursued for opportunities, many of which I've said no to, but some of which obviously I've said yes. And, you know, just an example is the baseball prospectus role as an advisory board member, and then as eventually a columnist. I mean, guys, I've had a blast doing that. It's been so much fun because you get to interact with fans, you know, just to have the awareness of the statistical stuff that goes on at Baseball Perspectives and the analytical minds that are writing for the site on a daily basis. I mean, it just heightened my awareness of what was going on. So, you know, I mean, some of heightened my awareness of what was going on. So, you know,

I mean, some of it is organic and some of it is choice. And, you know, as I told somebody when I was in San Francisco this morning, I told him, I said, you know, sooner or later, I'm going to run out of options and I'm going to have to decide what I really want to do. But that's frankly, that's part of the fun of it is I'm having a blast right now. I'm wearing a bunch of different hats, but each one of them is kind of satisfying a part of my brain and my DNA. And that for me makes it all worthwhile. I guess you still have to check off the TV talking head box. You haven't really done the former GM who's on baseball tonight job. You know, I actually did that before I was a general manager. I did that for the Cubs.

After I left the White Sox, I did that for the Cubs for about a four or five month period. And when I was hired to be the general manager of the Dodgers, that's actually what I was doing in Chicago for Comcast Sports. So, you know, that's the one part that I didn't go national. Maybe I'm saving that for the future. So, Dan, every offseason, of course, there are these front office openings, and we see kind of publicly, we see guys get interviewed for them, and we think about it as the team is deciding who to hire.

But in a way, the team has to convince the person to join the organization. And you've obviously been approached. You've said yes sometimes. You've said no sometimes. And I just wonder, what is it as a job applicant or as a person who is kind of being approached or headhunted, what are the important factors in an organization that you look at to decide whether that's a place that you want to be? Oh, Sam, what a great question. And you know what? That's gone on a lot in my career.

You know, even before I was general manager of the Dodgers, I was approached a number of times by clubs, and there were some teams I interviewed with and some teams I chose not to. And after I was general manager of the Dodgers, the same thing. And I think it comes into a couple of different buckets, and I'll just throw some things at you. For me, I was very lucky. When I started my career, I was 20 years old, and I learned from four future general managers as an intern.

And as a result, I had Roland Heeman, Dave Dombrowski, turn. And as a result, I had Roland Heeman, Dave Dombrowski, I had Bill Smith, I had Tony La Russa, Charlie Lau, Dave Duncan, Jim Leland, Dave Nelson. I had all those people as initial mentors. And it was an extraordinary experience because there were something like nine future major league managers on our minor league staff, and they were so willing because of Roland Heyman's character and management style to teach me. And I was extremely receptive to learning because I recognized that I was with some extraordinary people. And as a result, just to be born with you guys, what I have done in the rest of my career is, because I was so spoiled early by such good people, I always wanted to work with good people. the character of the people that I was going to work with and for.

And, you know, that might seem a bit Pollyannish, but in reality it just makes your whole world a lot easier. If the character of the people you're working with on a daily basis is real high, it's a lot more fun to come into work. It's a lot easier to work extra hours. And the common good and the common goals are generally real team oriented and not individual oriented so there were situations that have come up to my career but I'll be honest with you guys I just I just didn't feel I didn't want to be a part of it and it's not because I didn't respect their abilities

I just didn't feel that that was a place that really was a place that I could thrive and a place that I could enjoy. I mean, you both know me a little bit, and, you know, I've got a huge appetite for work. I love to go to games. There's no, you know, there's no venue I won't go to. I love going to high school and college games as much as I love sitting in a big league ballpark. So for me, it's never been how hard I was going to work and what I was going to do.

It's the people I was going to work with. And it all starts from the guys I started with. It's funny, today I was at a game in Glendale, and Jerry Krause, the great general manager of the Chicago Bulls who put together those great Bulls teams, is one of the best baseball scouts in the history of the game. He's extraordinary. I mean, he's made some incredible decisions.

I ran into him at the park, and we caught up about some of the things that he had me do when I was interning, just some little things. And you know, guys, those little things were incredible for me, because what they really did is, you know, I was learning. I was learning at such a young age. I was a junior in college. And when you learn from somebody that talented, it really just sets up your whole career because

you learn from someone really good. You don't pick up bad habits. You just add to the good ones. So, you know, what I've done throughout my career is I've tried to work with really good people and work with people who are good on and off the job. I mean, I just really like working with guys and women that are good people. I caught up with Kim Ang over the week in San Francisco, who I've hired twice. And Kim Ang is one of the most talented people in Major League Baseball.

But part of the reason that I enjoy Kim is that Kim is just an incredible human being, and she's fun, and we have a lot of common things that we really like. So, you know, for me, if you're going to work 12 to 15 to 18 hours a day in a game that every day is Monday, as one of my bosses said, you better be working with people you really like. And luckily, with Baseball Perspectives, with the Blue Jays, now with the Northern League, I'm going to be honest with you, I'm just working with guys that I like and people that I like. It just makes my world a lot easier.

And was the, I guess, the freedom of the role important to you when Toronto came to you and kind of laid out what they wanted you to do? Or did you kind of look at how you felt the organization was positioned competitively? And, of course, you mentioned how important the people are. So I imagine that there was a connection there as well. Yeah, Ben, good question. It all starts with the top. And Paul Beeston, who I've known almost my whole career, is one of the most extraordinary people I've ever met. Unbelievable Paul has an incredible skill when it comes to interpersonal communication. He's amazing, and he's got a great leadership vibe about him.

I think the world of Alex Anthopoulos, I think he's just brilliant. I think he's going to be one of the great general managers in our game for an extended period. I love his energy, and I love the fact that he's always trying to churn, trying to work the team. So that, to me, Perry Manassian is a guy that I deal with a lot as the pro scouting director, and he's got just great character. So those things meant a lot to me.

The club's chances for winning in 2013 and beyond, very big, Ben, and you bring up a good point. I was approached by a lot of teams this offseason. I talked to a lot of clubs. I kind of got the itch at the All-Star game last year. A lot of teams approached me, and I was having some really, really fun conversations with people, and I kept looking at the Blue Jays and going, this is going to be a good club. And I haven't won a World Series, guys, and I want to win. And I think, you know, I'm not going to make any predictions about what we're going to do,

but I think we're set to be a far more competitive team in 2013. And, you know, my ultimate goal is to try to win a World Series. It's the right place for me. The freedom of the role is a nice thing, but the unpredictability of my schedule, while it might be something that most people wouldn't like, I like it a lot. I like going to work and not necessarily knowing what my day is going to be. I enjoy that. I thrive on it.

As I rose through the levels in baseball, as you get to an assistant GM's position, you really don't know what your day is going to be like. And I've enjoyed that. And I've been in that role for an extended period. So for me, you know, the fact that the Blue Jays could call me tomorrow morning and say, hey, instead of going to this game, we want you to go to that game. Or we'd like you to go to, you know, this college game tonight. That for me is actually a lot of fun.

And it's one of the things that they tossed at me. Listen, I have a lot of respect for the way they handle their baseball staff, their scouts. They've got the largest scouting staff in the game, so that's a statement in itself, but I enjoy the fact that they're not rigid in their ways. They're very flexible, and as a result, it was just a real nice match for me. Do you know how many days you're going to be on the road in the next 365? Oh, God. My wife, my kids, and my dog will probably have a better feel for that than I do. I'm going to be on the road a lot. It's going to be pretty considerable. The Jays, though, are very good about getting days at home. So my guess is maybe three out every four weeks during the season, somewhere in there.

And some of it, Sam, will be strongly by choice, because what I want to do initially is I want to see our organization, because when names come up, I've got a good feel for the better prospects because I've seen most of them play. But I don't know the whole organization. So when a name comes up now in various conversations, you know, sometimes I'll take a quick peek at our organization book and I'll figure it out. I want to be able to help our organization where they say, hey, we're thinking about doing this guy for this guy. What do you think? And I want to have a valid opinion.

I was told early in my career, you don't have an opinion until you've seen the player. And I've really tried to keep that as a mantra throughout my career where I don't veer from that. So, you know, I'll tell people frequently, well, you know, Sam Miller saw him recently and said this, or Ben Lindbergh saw him recently and said this, but I never give people an opinion of a player unless I've really seen him myself.

So as a result, that's how I want to start it. But I'm okay traveling because when you're traveling for a good organization, both our kids are in college now, so I don't have the necessity to be as home as much as I used to be. So this, for me, I'm in good shape. I enjoy traveling. I like going to baseball games, So it's actually, it's fine for me. I'm okay. When you took over the Dodgers, they had one of the worst farm systems in the game. A few years later, they had one of the best ones. So you know how to kind of turn around an organization's talent level. And I guess the Blue Jays have sort of done that themselves,

investing in scouting and building up their minor league system. And then lately they've sort of started the second phase of the plan of converting those prospects into major league talent and using them as trade chips. Do you think that those are sort of separate skills that some general managers have both? Maybe the best have both. Some only have one or the other

and have some difficulty transitioning from one phase to the next? Oh, such a good question, Ben. I really believe you're right. I think the better general managers, the ones that have had extraordinary runs, people like John Sherholtz and Pat Gillick, what they do is they build from within and they're very consistent in their methodology.

They have a game plan. They carry it out. And if you think about it, the really good GMs have kind of a brand. They've got, you know, like the Braves are a good example. The Braves were extraordinary for an extended period. And what they did was they focused on pitching. And they churned their position players for the most part. But they always wanted to have three solid

starters and a certain type of bullpen. And for me, I think the really good GMs can not only build and build a scouting and player development thing, but they can also maintain their major league side. I'll be honest, when I came to the Dodgers, they were in disarray. I mean, that's why you get hired, because there's problems. But I was telling somebody a couple weeks ago here in spring training that I had about two

months where I didn't have an assistant GM. I had no farm director, and I had no scouting director, and I was fine. And the reason is I'd done all those jobs. So it was like, okay, we've got good staff here. Until I get the right people in place, I know how to do it. I'm going to be okay. I'm going to require a lot of assistance from the people here on staff, and luckily I had great people. But the key for me to any good general manager is the people who work for them

because as a GM, you are inundated on a daily basis by things that just suck up your time. And you've always got to be focused on the long and the short term of the club. And there's a lot of things that don't get done by you that have to be done by other people. So for me, you know, I got lucky. I was given the chance to hire some really talented people like Kim Eng and Bill Bavese and Logan White, you know, people like John Bowles and Joe Amalfitano.

And we hired a slew of scouts. But what I tried to do more than anything is I tried to have a game plan and carry it out. And I was real rigid initially in veering off from that. I just didn't do things like sign Chonho Park. I mean, we didn't make him an offer because I wanted the extra draft picks. And I wanted to knock our payroll down a little bit so I had some more flexibility. And the fun part was to be able to carry that out because the team turned things around real quickly.

We won a division title a couple years later. But what we really did is we set up the organization with people like Kemp and Billingsley and Broxton that had a lot of success through the year. and Billingsley and Broxton that had a lot of success through the year. But that was really because I had good staff under me who just carried out my vision. When I saw you in Arizona a couple of weeks ago, we briefly talked about how the role of the general manager has changed in the last decade or so. And I wonder, having seen Alex operate up close now for a while and seeing all the demands on his time, I wonder if you have compared it at all to what the job was like when you were doing it. Yeah, I did. I did. And you know what, Ben? One of the problems today

that, you know, when I first started was so different, is a great general manager once told me in confidence not to make a decision until you had to. And it seems so simplistic, but it's very, very good advice. Because, you know, a lot of times you go with a knee jerk and you just think about it and you think about it and you do it. And that's almost like the book Blink, where your gut hunch tells you to do it. There's other times you want more information. Well, now with the amount of information you have available, I mean, I've been on the Baseball Perspectives site for 15 years probably, and any time something was going on, I always had little things that I was peeking at.

Everybody does. The difference today, and Sam, you know this as someone who's been a beat writer, it's the immediacy. People have questions and deserve answers and need answers unlike the old 1130 deadlines. Now suddenly if someone calls you at noon, it's going to be on the Internet at 12.05 as a tweet. And I'm bad because here I'm on Twitter all the time. So I'm following it. And when I got to the Camelback Ranch today, I'm checking Twitter for 10 minutes

just trying to see what's going on with other clubs. And I'm surprised more people don't do it. But I think the job that Alex and the other 29 GMs have today, even in a very short period from when I was a general manager, is that now with Twitter, with texting, with the number of media sites that are out there, you are hit from so many more directions than you were maybe 10 or 15 years ago, particularly in the larger markets. than you were maybe 10 or 15 years ago, particularly in the larger markets. And I think that's why, more than ever, general managers are dependent on good assistance,

strong player development and scouting people who can do their jobs for them. But I think what really has happened over the last decade, maybe 15 years, is the role of the media relations or PR guy has become so essential to the common good of the organization where those people interact with the baseball people on a daily basis. I mean, I started to do this when I was with the Dodgers and I found it very helpful, just knowing what's out there and what's going on. And by bringing those people into your, I would say, inner thoughts and all of your meetings, their awareness of what's going on, I think goes on is that everybody has a little better feel for how to hit the target, which, you know, in the baseball world, there's 30 teams trying to win as many games as you can.

You're not going to win every game, but you want to try to keep your path and keep your focus on what you're trying to accomplish. So I don't think any of us were all that surprised when you got hired by a major league team. But the Northern League thing was sort of delightfully unexpected and probably not what I would have guessed was going to happen in your life. How did that how did that come about? And and can you can you tell us where the Northern League like like where they are right now? Because if I'm not mistaken, they're currently on hiatus? Yeah, Sam, that's a fun question because I don't think any of my friends expected that either.

But that's part of what makes it a real fun career challenge for me. They approached me, the Northern League people, and just to give you a little background, they stopped playing about a year and a half ago, and they're prepared to start in May of 2014, about 14 months from now. And they approached me with some questions and some thoughts about the league, and I was doing consulting at the time,

and it just made a lot of sense to have the conversation. And then they approached me and asked me if I'd be interested in being the commissioner of the league. Well, at this time, I was basically already working for the Blue Jays, and this is during the offseason. And I was just trying to think about whether or not it would be something that I could balance. And I've always been intrigued for working for a minor league club.

My wife and I had always thought when my career just started kind of winding down, that one of the fun things to do would be to own a short season summer team and run it and just have a blast doing it. You know, you guys know all about the North, you know, the teams in Northwest League and the Pioneer League and the Appalachian League. Those are fun places to operate. You know, they get players at a very early stage of their career. The fans get to see a guy initially as a pro. The players are very innocent at that point, and they're not inundated by a lot of the demands on their time

and resources that go on later. So I always thought about that. And when Nick and Ed DeRogers approached me, I listened. And when they talked about how they wanted to do it, it really intrigued me. So when I spoke to the Blue Jays and I said, listen, I'd really like to work with you guys. You're where I want to go. I had already whittled down my clubs and it's clearly where I wanted to go. And I said, can we make this work where I can still do something with the Northern League and for that matter, so I could still be on the advisory board of Baseball Perspectives? And the Blue Jays were great.

The Blue Jays said, no problem whatsoever. You know, we're fine with it, no problem. So now I look at it as a chance to take a product that I love. I love going to minor league games. I love going to pro baseball. I love going to baseball games just as it is. So when I looked at it, I thought, okay, a great challenge for me at a stage in my career where I really know what it's like to sit in the ballpark because it's basically what I do on a nightly basis, but just take that knowledge and that experience and kind of target a fun, family-oriented product that

is really responsible, cutting-edge, high-character ownership and club operators, and make it just a great place for players, fans, field staff, everybody to come out and enjoy a ball game. I mean, I think it's very doable. And I think it's something that with the time that we have, 14 months to put together franchises throughout the Midwest, the East Coast, perhaps in Canada, I'm just going to vet out the right people, and I'm going to do it the right way. And as a buddy of mine told me the other day, just make sure you don't compromise, because if you don't compromise, what you're going to have is a very good product out on the field and a situation where people will enjoy being a part of the league.

One of the fun parts about it, guys, is we get to build from square one. The league hasn't been playing for the last couple of years, so there are communities and areas all across those areas that I mentioned earlier that are looking for baseball. And for me, I want all the other leagues to thrive. I don't want to go out and destroy other leagues for the benefit of the Northern League because I think it's good for the game if we all do okay. I'm targeting franchises right now and looking at areas all over North America that make sense, not only from an economic standpoint,

but from a logistical standpoint. And you know what, guys? That's fun. I mean, it's enjoyable, and I plan on trying to do it as professionally and as long-term vision-wise as I can so these entities don't change leagues, don't disband, don't walk away. So as a result, I want some fiscally sound people, some really strong owners that have the same, I would say the same viewpoint on the game and growing the sport as I do. And if I can find the right mix of people,

I think it's going to be an absolute blast, and I think it's going to be a real success. I think I'm going to have a lot of fun doing it at the same time. If you're, if you're asking Sam and I will take one team, we'll take care of it. I wonder, that would be interesting if baseball prospectus, uh, did adopt a team. We could be like, uh, we could be the, uh, we could be the, uh, the, the, the, the, uh, general manager by committee for a team. God, wouldn't that be a blast, guys? It would be a blast.

And you know the fun part about it would be if the BP group did a really good job, imagine hanging that one on your mantle. I mean, you could really have a lot of fun. And I tell you, I've had some friends that are really, really successful people in major businesses already call me and say, Hey, listen, you know, I'm, I'm not kidding now. I'd really like to like to just take a shot at this. So, you know, I'm telling you guys, if you're, if you're serious about it, um, I mean, you guys, I know both of you so well, and I know the BP group so well. I really think that there's some really fun things to be done here. And you'd be surprised

at the number of people, since we announced my hiring as commissioner about a week ago, you'd be surprised at how many people have connected with me. And I think it just bodes well for the league. Yeah, I wonder how many people in this conversation are joking because at least one of us is not joking at all. We'll be discussing this after. No, I know and guys, listen, seriously it's a lot of fun

because, you know, unlike a minor league franchise where you have no say in the players. I mean, the players are handed to you I mean, you both know that and the players. I mean, the players are handed to you. I mean, you know, you both know that. And affiliates, you know, the general manager of a minor league affiliate is really a business operator. He runs the business element of the minor league franchise.

The difference with an independent league club and, you know, more specifically a northern league team, you're responsible for everything. You're responsible for the makeup of the team, the field staff, the website, the email domain. You're taking the groundskeeper, the stadium operations, the souvenirs. Everything is under your jurisdiction. Now, for some people, that's really intimidating. For other people, and some of which have already contacted me, they see that and they go, oh my gosh, this is my real fantasy team. You know, I'm not drafting guys. I'm putting a club together.

And I'll tell you what, I think, you know, I look at it as an absolute blast. I look at it as a chance to really put your fingerprints on a franchise. And somebody said to me today, a really high-ranking member of a municipality that's interested, said, you know, this is a chance for us to bring yet another reason why our city is a great city. And you hear that, and you go, hey, that's fun. You know, this guy's looking big picture, not just at a little blip on the screen. He's looking at it as being a part of the real fabric of the community. Well, I can tell you

the first thing the Baseball Perspectives team would do would be to sign Kyle Loesch. So, Dan, the last question we should ask, because I think probably you get asked this weekly, and people at Baseball Perspectives get asked it a lot,

and it is what the best way to get into the game is if you want to get a job in the sport. And obviously, the answer is work 18-hour days and do whatever people tell you. But can you give sort of specifics of like kind of what the best route is, if there is a best route? You know what? I do get asked that question a lot. And everybody has their own way. I mean, I got hired as an intern only because I answered the phone in a DePaul University newspaper room when the White Sox called. So sometimes it's luck, and sometimes it's opportunity, but I think you create your own luck and you create your own opportunities. If I were to give people advice, what I would say is, first of all, remember it's a job. But if you really love the game, it never becomes a job, it becomes work.

I've been very lucky. I haven't had a job since I was 19 years old. I've worked in something that I really enjoy and I love going to every day. So first of all, you've got to love the sport. But second of all, I think you have to be okay doing your initial job really well and not focusing on trying to be the general manager of a major league franchise because admittedly I never had that goal for my first four or five years. I never even thought about it until somebody I really respected, who was a general manager, said to me, you should really think about that.

I think the problem with too many people in the game today is their goal is to be a general manager, and it gets in the way of them doing their job on a daily basis. What I would do, Sam, if I were an entry-level person, on a daily basis, what I would do, Sam, if I were an entry-level person, is I would try to find something really relevant, something that I can contribute to a major league franchise initially as an intern or as an entry-level person, whether that's a blog, whether that's research, whether that's writing for something like Baseball Perspectives.

Have a relevancy to your daily contribution and be somebody that carves out his own niche within the game, where you become somebody who can help. You've got to be somebody who's going to work ridiculous hours. You both know. You both started just like I did as an entry-level person, and somebody saw you working well and working hard and gave you more opportunities. But I think for so many people today, they think all the people that attained some level of success in the sport

just suddenly became that guy. And almost every one of those people started at the ground floor, and their work ethic, their persistence, and I think most importantly, their work ethic, their persistence, and I think most importantly, their interpersonal skills, their character. I think those are elements that become huge. You know, guys, we're playing every single day and you're around each other for 12 to 15 hours a day. The really good people tend to stick around because people like working with them over

that span of time. tend to stick around because people like working with them over that span of time. And if somebody says to me the other day, the bad guys fire themselves and knock themselves out of the game because people don't want to be around them for an entire day, another day, and another day, and six months after that. And I think that's where our sport probably weeds out a lot of bad people, simply because you couldn't survive in baseball being a bad guy. And I think the other thing I would suggest, and I get tons of resumes, guys, you know what? You've got to be okay with the word no, because a lot of people are going to reject you, and a lot of people are going to say they don't have a position available.

are going to reject you and a lot of people are going to say they don't have a position available. All it takes is that one and that one position can be the person, can be the opportunity that essentially sets up your entire career. And I really believe that a lot of people are afraid of hearing no and they're afraid of being told no. And, you know, listen, guys, we've all been up for jobs and been told no. And it's not a good listen, guys, we've all been up for jobs and been told no, and it's not a good feeling. It's a, it's a, it's a horrible thing to hear on the other end of the phone, but it's what you hear after that and what you do with that, that decision, you either get better and you work on your, your points that they think you needed to work on, or you get defeated by it and you curl up into a ball.

I just think for so many young people in the game that are trying to get into the game, just don't worry about somebody saying no. Get somebody to say yes. So are you saying that when you started out, teams would just place calls to college newspaper offices and whoever picked up the phone, they would hire? Oh, I'll tell you what, Ben, it was amazing.

Real quick, this is what happened. The White Sox were sold. It was January of, what, 1981. And the White Sox had been sold to Jerry Reinstorf. And they had a very limited staff, and they needed a couple of interns. And actually, my first boss, I saw at the ballpark today at Candlestick, I mean at Camelback Ranch, Chuck Shriver, who was the PR guy of the White Sox at the time, and he and Roland Heeman were looking for an intern.

I answered the phone, and they said, hey, we're looking for intern candidates. Do you have anybody? And if you have anybody who's interested, can you post something, and we'll start interviewing tomorrow. Well, let's just say I wasn't the real team player on that one, and I didn't print out anything. I didn't post anything, and I showed up at the ballpark the next day, and it happened to be the day that Carlton Fisk selected the White Sox as a free agent.

So Pudge and I have always laughed through the years that, you know, without Fisk, I probably don't get my job. But the great thing about it is it just happened. There was no planning. You know, I didn't send a resume out. I was just starting my junior year of college. Sometimes it happens that way. I'm not saying it happens like that all the time.

And when I was done with that day, I didn't even know if I had an internship or not. And then the strike hit three months later and Roland Heeman brought me in his office, closed the door and I figured, okay, well, I'm getting laid off like the other people here. And he said, I'll give you two options. You can either continue your internship, not get paid and I'll love you because I won't have to pay you. And because of the strike, you'll make a lot of sense for us financially. Or you can tell me you've got to have full-time or part-time status. I've got to pay you.

And then I'm going to tell you good luck at school. Well, guys, that was a pretty easy decision. And I'm happy I did it because that summer turned out to be, you know, a horrible summer for the game but a great summer for me because I was able to learn from some of the most talented people in the game. It was like a classroom environment for me because they didn't have games at night. We were going to minor league ball games and we were talking baseball every day. Frankly, I could never replace that.

Ben, seriously, that's how easy it was. I answered the phone. I was the sports and features editor of the DePaul University newspaper. The phone rang. I answered the phone. And I literally, if I don't answer the phone, I'm probably, I don't work in baseball for the last 30 years. All right. Well, that's going to be my new default advice then. When someone asks me how to get a job in baseball, I will say, just pick up the phone when it rings. don't screen your calls because it could be the white socks calling to offer you a job that's right you never know if the president or an owner of a club is calling right okay well

we have kept you way too long i know you were an early riser uh if we were smart we would have had you on when you weren't working for a team so we could have asked you all sorts of specific questions about major league players and teams uh but we did not and i'm sort of glad we didn't because you had a lot of interesting things to tell us anyway even though you're not allowed to talk about certain things so we we wish you the best and thank you for for coming on thanks to both of you and i really enjoyed the podcast continued success thank you for coming on. Thanks to both of you. And I really enjoyed the podcast. Continued success. Thank you. And we do not have a special fancy guest lined up for tomorrow,

so people will have to listen to us talk and should send us emails at podcast at baseballperspectives.com so that we will have something to talk about. Be back tomorrow.