Effectively Wild: A FanGraphs Baseball Podcast - Effectively Wild Episode 2032: League of Legends

Episode Date: July 14, 2023

Ben Lindbergh and Meg Rowley banter about Meg’s spectator experience at the All-Star Game, whether it’s good or bad that the MVP was a player as obscure as Elias Díaz, the increase in the number of All-Stars per season, other All-Star highlights and lowlights, complaints about All-Star uniforms, perennial requests for a skills competition, Rob […]

Does baseball look the same to you as it does to me? When we look at baseball, how much do we see? Well, the curveballs bend and the home runs fly More to the game than meets the eye To get the stats compiled and the stories filed Fans on the internet might get riled, but we can break it down on Effectively Wild. Hello and welcome to episode 2032 of Effectively Wild, a baseball podcast from Fangraphs presented by our Patreon supporters. I am Ben Lindberg of The Ringer, joined by Meg Rowley of Fangraphs. Hello, Meg.

Hello. Well, you went to Seattle to see the game's brightest stars shine, and Elias Diaz didn't disappoint. How was your All-Star Game experience? It was pretty cool, although there was speculation as soon as Diaz hit that home run about whether he would be the most surprising MVP to emerge from an All-Star game. Let's put it that way. I don't know that all of the descriptors were quite as generous. But I think, look, he was and is an All-Star. and is an all-star.

And there's nothing in the rules of that game or baseball more generally that says that the most obvious, likely, or logical player is the one who has the biggest impact on the game. We like that in all other contexts, Ben. Why wouldn't we like that in the all-star game context? I ask you, you know? It's an anti-democratic impulse, really, to be shocked or disappointed by Diaz being the MVP. So try that on.

It's a good question that I have been wrestling with since that game because, yes, it is true in terms of All-Star Game MVPs. One of our Patreon supporters in the StatBlast channel of our Patreon Discord group ran the numbers on All-Star Game MVPs. And Oli Estes does have by far the lowest career baseball reference war of any player who was named All-Star Game MVP. Of course, his career is not over yet, but he's at 4.5 career baseball reference war right now. The only other player DCA found with a single digit baseball reference career war is Bo Jackson. And Bo Jackson is Bo Jackson, right? So it's a slightly different category.

Then after that, Leon Wagner was at 11.7. But that was when there were two games and two awards. Lamar Hoyt with 12.1. Sandy Alomar Jr., 13.7, but that was when there were two games and two awards. Lamar Hoyt with 12.1, Sandy Alomar Jr., 13.7. And even those guys compared to Elias Diaz, probably bigger names, right? I mean, most of those guys were at least multi-time all-stars, which I guess Elias Diaz could still become. Or Lamar Hoyt had been a Cy Young winner, which was sort of an outlier season for him, but then he was an All-Star after that. So yeah, in terms of obscurity and name recognition, Lee Estes definitely down there. And our friend Jordan Schusterman, he wrote for Fox Sports an

article about this that was headlined, Lee Estes winning MVP is what MLB All-Star Game is all about. And basically, he made the case that, hey, every team gets a representative, and that's a part of the fun that you tune in. You're a fan of the Rockies. You get to see a Rocky in the All-Star Game, and you never know. And sometimes there are somewhat random, unpredictable award winners, and you can't predict who will be the one to strike the best players and the most famous players, and they get to play each other. And obviously the event, a lot less intriguing than it used to be, I think just because we get to see these guys all the time.

We get to see them play each other all the time. There's no real league rivalry or league differentiation anymore. So for any number of reasons, there's a lot less intrigue surrounding this event than there used to be. But it is still about seeing the biggest names and the most talented players match up. And I mean, no disrespect to Elias Diaz, but it's kind of one of these is not like the others, at least when you look at most of the players on the All-Star roster. not like the others, at least when you look at most of the players on the All-Star roster.

That's fair. But, you know, we got big matchups earlier in the game. And then, you know, what are the later innings of an All-Star game for if not that? You know what I mean? It's not like Otani didn't bat, you know. It's not like Garrett Cole didn't almost give up too. Which I just got to say, oh, Garrett, what a funny little bit of business. But yeah. Yeah.

I mean, you could say that in an earlier era of the All-Star game, you would have the starters still in there for most of, if not all of the game. And so the people doing the things that would decide the game at the end would still be the big names and not the reserves who were there because every team had to have an all-star representative, right? That changed a while ago. People still complain about that. And I think that's fair enough. But I think the thing about Elias Diaz is that it depends what metrics you look at. Obviously, there have been a lot of somewhat fluky half-season all-stars in the history of the game. And you look back and you think, him? He was an all-star? It's kind of a remember-some-guys sort of thing. But usually with those guys, they at least did have a really good pre-All-Star break performance.

Whereas Elias Diaz, he's been okay. You know, he's had a decent season. I mean, I feel bad because, like, you look, he's been around the game for a long time. He's 32, almost 33. Like, it's obviously awesome for him. And maybe that trumps everything else, that he had this wonderful, potentially career highlight moment on the stage. And you can never take it away from him that he was an all-star and he was an all-star game MVP. And he seems to be a well-liked player and people are happy for him.

I'm happy for him. him. But just even, I think, in the annals of sort of random All-Stars, he's maybe still sort of stands out for, if you factor in framing, that hurts him. Now, I don't think All-Star voters or players are necessarily taking framing into account. He does noted well when it comes to framing. And so if you look at Fangraph's war, he is ninth among Rockies and 29th among catchers. So that doesn't stand out. Now, if you look at baseball reference war, where framing is not taken into account, he is, I guess, tied for seventh among catchers and tied for fourth among National League catchers. So it's a little more understandable, you know, by the traditional stats, he looks more all-star-ish, but only to a degree. So yeah, you could say, what are we doing here if ultimately the hero of the all-star game is Elias Diaz, a player most people

watching that game probably had never heard of. I guess you could also say, hey, now people have heard of Elias Diaz. So isn't that nice that he had that moment? It is nice that he had that moment, you know. I still feel like the most random all-star for me this year was Michael Renson. But, you know, like it was a nice moment. I guess maybe the solution for teams where it's clear that their representative is there because everyone needs them. Like that's when you go the bullpen route because it's just so much less likely to matter in the course of a game, right? Although sometimes, you know, you put a questionable reliever in there and maybe he's the one who gives up a big home run. So, you know, once we have crossed the Rubicon of everyone needing a representative, you open it up to this, right?

You allow for this possibility. I just cannot be brought to be bothered by it. You know, like I have a long list of things that irk me. We are famous on our Patreon episodes for our low stakes rants. But even this, I can't. I can't even. I can't, Ben. I can't muster it.

I was too busy being charmed by an entire ballpark of Mariners fans pleading with Otani to come to Seattle. I was too busy sitting there going, it's not likely to happen. I know they'll try, but it's not likely that he becomes a Mariner. But it sure was nice for the assembled fans to pre-write everyone's lead in the event that he does. You know, that's just a little bit of a journalistic boost that you couldn't have counted on. And they were like, no, no, we'll oblige you. So here you go. Yeah.

How was the atmosphere in general? I know, yeah, there was the Otani serenade and there was some fire the team John Fisher chants, right? And enthusiasm for the Mariners. But what was it like to be at the ballpark? It was great. You're right. Profound enthusiasm for the Mariners, but what was it like to be at the ballpark? It was great. You're right. Profound enthusiasm for the Mariners. Lots of enthusiasm for Corbin Carroll. So that was nice. And for Adley Rutschman, despite the fact that Washington and Oregon are famously separate states. So that was fun. The Northwest vibes were really good.

It was like a good hey we are here together as people who maybe have had to deal with seasonal affective disorder um so that was really nice full vibrant ballpark the assembled mariners fans have never and will never get over the astros either as cheaters or um be your down alvarez's who have ended a Mariner season almost single-handedly. So that was, you know, they're going to have to give Houston an all-star game just so those guys can get,

not over it would be the way that I would describe the, the Mariners fans. And I, you know what, I'm, I'm not saying that you have to, would be the way that I would describe the Mariners fans. And you know what? I'm not saying that you have to. I'm just making an observation about where everyone's at emotionally. But yeah, it was cool. I've been saying to various folks,

I'm spending a couple of days with my family on the back end of this and actually sleeping a full night, which has so been, you know, profound. I recommend it. You know, I know that you're removed from that experience for different reasons, just as being a dad and a non-sleeper. But boy, does good sleep feel really great in your body. It's like, wow, this is cool. I don't feel tingly in weird spots. But I've been saying to, you know, my family and these sorts of events always give you an opportunity to see industry friends who live far away from you.

Every job, even really cool jobs, are jobs. And so they have moments of being a job, being your job, where you're annoyed or tired or both things at once. But I just had like really deep and profound sense of appreciation for my job, taking me to my home ballpark to get to see something like that. It was just a very cool thing. I thought that the team did a really great job with the proceedings in the ballpark and the fans were super enthusiastic and it was very cool. And the weather was perfect. I know that that cost me in our pre-season draft event draft. What do we call that? Bold predictions, pre-season predictions. Yeah, there you go. Words. You predicted rain, right? And relocations for the draft. What do we call that thing? Bold predictions, preseason predictions. Yeah, there you go. Words.

You predicted rain, right, and relocations for the draft. And I was wrong. And I was happy to be wrong. And Bauman was right about LSU going 1-2. Yeah, how about that? Man, I can't wait to do that draft again. I'm going to approach it really differently. I feel like I'm going to be in it in. I'm going to, I'm really, I feel like I'm going to be in it in a better way next year. But it was very, it was a cool, a very cool experience. And I was, I felt pretty lucky to get to do it in a place that has a lot of baseball memory for me. Me and Corbin Carroll, basically the same, I think is the takeaway.

You know, me and Corbin Carroll, basically the same, I think is the takeaway. Yeah. Without any further picking on Elias Diaz, I did get some data on just how many All-Stars there are now compared to how many there used to be. Kenny Jacklin at Baseball Reference sent me this information because according to Baseball Reference, there were 77 players selected to the All-Star game, named to the All-Star game, including the starters and then the reserves and the replacements, right? And 77 is not a record, not even quite close to the record. The record is 84, the 2011 All-Star game. But there are many more All-Stars than there used to be, which, of course, there are also more players than there used to be. There are more teams than there used to be. There are more roster spots than there used to be. So I suppose you would expect that as the league has expanded, there would be more All-Stars just to keep things proportional.

But also things are probably not quite proportional. quite proportional. Just looking back, even if we don't look back all the way to the era of multiple All-Star Games in a season, I'll link to this data if anyone wants to look for all years since the All-Star Game came about in 1933, 90th anniversary this year of the All-Star Game. But even if we just look on average in the 70s, let's say, there were 60.1 all-stars per season. In the 80s, there were 59.1 all-stars per season. And in the 90s, there were 59.9 all-stars per season. So essentially flat for those decades, 70s, 80s, 90s, they were roughly 59, 60 all-stars per season. In the 2000s, there were, if I round up, 68 all-stars per season.

In the 2010s, there were 77 all-stars per season. And so far in the 2020s, 79 all-stars per season. 79 all-stars per season. Even if we just look since 1998, so the 30-team era, and we basically lop that in half. So let's say 98 through 2009, that's the first 12 all-star games of that period, there were an average of 67.1 all-stars. And then in the second half of that period, roughly the most recent 13 All-Star games, there have been 77.8. So more than 10 extra All-Stars per season just over this second half of the period that is covered by the 30-team era and even more expansion really in recent years. So I guess there's been some inflation in how many All-Stars there are. And I guess you could say that that's watered down the accomplishment slightly for what

it means to be an All-Star, what it takes to qualify for the All-Star game. I didn't look at this by the average war or whatever, but I would imagine that there's been probably some decrease over that time as well as the ranks have expanded. So maybe that's players taking the honor a little less seriously in some cases, or taking their health and their rest more seriously. More seriously, yeah. Yeah, and just being more likely to opt out or I don't know what else it is. Maybe obviously you didn't, I guess, always have the rule about every team has to have an all-star probably and various other changes. But there are more all-stars, which is not to say, I guess, that all of those all-stars are actually at the game or get into the game, but just the honor of I was an All-Star that season.

You get the little All-Star, little icon, ASG text next to your season on baseball reference when you look back. So it's changed, I guess, maybe what it means to be an All-Star. So it's changed, I guess, maybe what it means to be an all-star. It's changed. But, you know, there were probably at least counterbalancing some of it. I'm sure that there were all-stars who were like, they were surface levels at all-stars. But if we were to look back at their war in those seasons, we might be like, well, that guy an all-star. So it was like a push and a pull and a land of contrast you know um yeah i'm just like fully relaxed for the first time in two months so i i find it really hard to be bothered

by stuff i really am struggling to get my hackles up you know i can't i have no i have no hackles i have i have hacked all my hackles i'm'm trying to think of what your typical pet peeves are so I can take your temperature on whether they still peeve you or whether – You know, put all the hyphens in. Whatever feels right. Just put them all in. Just put all of those hyphens in. I mean, that's actually an unhinged thing to say. We can have confidence in our readers to be able to properly decipher compound words.

But, you know, if it really makes you happy, I think go with your truth. That's where I'm at. I only had one cup of coffee and I'm really awake. Wow. This is like wild sensation, Ben. Really, really flying high at 9.25 a.m. with one cup of coffee. Oh, no, you know, this is my second cup. So never mind.

I take it all back. Get rid of the hyphens. Strike them from the record. We haven't even mentioned the outcome of the game. I guess that's just— Oh, yeah, nationally won. How about that? Yeah, maybe that was implied in Ole Estes,

national leaguer being the All-Star Game MVP. But, yeah, the first NL victory, a 3-2 victory since 2012, right? Which was a long time ago. That was the Brian LaHare all-star year. That's how I remember these things. But, yeah, I mean, Do you remember them? I'm comfortable not dedicating any

brain space to that. That's a, I'm gonna Google it, kind of a factoid, yeah. I did feel a little bad for Lourdes Gurriel Jr. Yes! He almost became an all-star hero himself, right? He almost hit a game-tying homer because, which I guess it would have been before the Diaz homer, right? But he hit a homer that was just barely foul.

Just barely foul. And everyone thought it was fair to the extent that he actually, he fully rounded the bases. Fully and went back to the dugout. Yeah. And was like celebrating and was super happy. Hey, I just hit a big home run in the All-Star game. Like he was getting high fives and butt slaps and the whole thing. Oh, yeah.

And then there was a review and then it was foul. It felt bad for him. And I saw some people being like, you shouldn't have replay review in the All-Star game. It's an exhibition. I don't really feel that way. I think, you know, if there was a foul ball and it would alter the outcome of the game, then I'm glad that they got that call right. But I did feel sympathetic for him. It's like, oh, he had that big, you know, I guess he got to experience what it would be like to hit a big home run in the All-Star Game for a little while there. It was indistinguishable from the real thing. For a minute.

But I did feel badly for him. And, you know, I in that particular moment was not in the press box because I had, you know, there were people there who I knew who aren't media members. So I was catching up with someone and I was like like oh Lordis how about that and I was like is he gonna have the vest did he bring the vest which I know is reserved for like post-game celebration but like if ever there's a time when you're gonna be loosey-goosey with the rules of a celebratory object it's's going to be in the All-Star Game. So I was like, are they going to put the vest on him? And I was so amped for the rest of America to get to know our particular blend of weird and tacky that we do in the desert sometimes. And I don't think he had it, so he didn't lose out on that.

But I was like, if he had hit that and he had won MVP, would he have worn the vest while receiving his MVP award? I mean, the road will never know Ben. So I did feel badly for him because I wanted him to get to experience all of that. And he didn't. He didn't get to. He did have a hit in the game. So he didn't get sk didn't get to. Yeah. He did have a hit in the game. So he didn't get skunked. But, yeah.

I'm glad you had a good all-star game and a good all-star week. And, yeah, I mean, I guess the bellyaching about who is and isn't an all-star and how many all-stars there are, that's right up there with other complaints about all-star week and the All-Star Game, namely the uniforms, right? So, you know I'm not a uniform guy. I don't have an MLB fashion sense or any fashion sense, really. But people are upset, are perennially upset now, not only about the uniforms themselves and the aesthetics of them, but also just about the fact that there's an all-star uniform at all, that the players do not wear their respective team uniforms. I cannot bring myself to care very much about this.

Certainly cannot bring myself to care very much about what the all-star uniforms look like if you're going to have all-star uniforms. I guess I'm sympathetic to the complaint that they should just wear their own team's uniforms as they used to, less even because of the way that it looks, like just the chaos of uniforms, the rainbow of uniforms all together on the field, but because it would probably be helpful for people to know who does Elias Diaz play for, for instance, right? If you don't know who Elias Diaz everyone and you just want to convey the maximum amount of visual information then it does and also if part of it is hey you want all of your fans of every team to tune in and get to see their guys then why not make it easier for them to

identify their guys and feel that pride of seeing that uniform although if if they're on the Braves or the Rangers, then half the team would be that uniform on the field at any given time. But yeah, that argument makes sense to me. I can't get that exercised about it. But if I had to side with one side, then I guess I would side with the traditionalists on that one. Well, and if they want to like insist upon a uniform being worn, an all-star uniform being worn, like that's what the derby is for or batting practice or, you know, like you can, and here's a thought that I have about this as someone who perused the team store options to take little treats home to my family. People are just going to buy all-star stuff. They're just going to buy all-star stuff.

The guys wearing those uniforms in the game, it does not matter. It does not matter. They're still going to buy because I have seen, I was like, maybe I understand the vibe that they were trying to evoke, like the Northwest vibe that they wanted. They were terrible, those uniforms, and they were not better upon closer inspection. I thought maybe, you know, I'll see, I'm sure,

a bunch of them up close in the concourse as people are walking around because fans are going to buy those. And they did, and they were still bad. You know, they still looked pretty bad. So I think that it's not necessary to besmirch the aesthetic. And it's cool.

You know, it's nice to see the different guys in their unis like hanging out together and in the field. But that's a cool visual. You should lean in to that visual. Although maybe then you make it even easier for the assembled fans to boo every Astro. That's true. Tucker wasn't even on that team yet. Neither was Jordan. I understand Mariners fans booing Jordan,

even though, again, not implicated in that particular scandal because those home runs in the postseason were devastating. So that's like a logical, you know, and again, it doesn't have to be a logical experience. You can just be mad at the team. I get it. They're a division rival even if there wasn't a scandal. You don't have to be cheering them lustily or anything.

I did appreciate the people were like – The Angels are a division rival. Well, there's a project. You know, there's a – speaking of schemes, there is a scheme afoot here, right? There is an effort being made to move. There is flirtation. Mate is not necessarily the same as division rifle. The Angels have not always been a division rifle.

Right. Although, you know, the last couple of years, it has seemed as if the Mariners and the Angels do not particularly care for one another. Or I should maybe say, like, the Mariners seem to not like Phil Nevin very much. I don't know how much of it extends to the rest of the team. But, you know, like Kyle Tucker and Julio were out in the outfield and the auxiliary press box was in right field. I do have to say, Ben, I know that people don't care about this because it's weird inside baseball. It's kind of navel-cazy. But for Mariners fans listening, this will resonate more

in terms of the specific experience. But they make the hit-it-here cafe the Oxbox, and that's got to be one of the nicer Oxboxes in baseball because firm, normal counters, like and and ready and working outlets you know sometimes you end up in an ox box where they just lay down long pieces of of like plywood and one person typing is enough to make the entire operation wave and move and, you know, the outlets are like, you know, power strips plugged into other power strips plugged into other power strips. No, no, not at the Hidden Here Cafe. Really nice Oxbox.

So I really like saying Oxbox. That's satisfying. But, you know, so I had a, I had a view of, of right and center and, you know, they were doing probably, I think a replay review and the guys are chatting with each other. Maybe it was like pitching change. I don't know. And, you know, Julio and Kyle Tucker are yucking it up and it's like, uh, let the, let the

players interaction with each other be your guide. Maybe, maybe that's the way to do it. But yeah, they didn't, they didn't boo Otani. If anything, they were flirting. Actively flirting. I support their flirtation. If that ends up being a

long partnership, mutually beneficial to both sides, it would be fine. It would solve some of the problems that the team has. Not all of them, but it would, you know. I think the offense would rate better overall if Otani were in that lineup. Yeah. So every player should wear their team's uniform unless they're an Astro, in which case they should enter the All-Star Game Witness Protection Program.

But then if they're wearing the All-Star game jersey and everyone else, you don't know. And so I think that they might just have to take their lumps. If I had to guess, they'd have to just take their lumps. So those are two of the perennial gripes about the All-Star game, how the All-Stars are selected, who they are, and how many there are, and then also what they wear. I think the other one is people griping about the format, right? And people don't gripe anymore about this time it counts because it doesn't count. They've done away with that. They've leaned into this as an exhibition. That's great. But people still advocate for a skills competition, right? Not a year goes by that you

don't hear people saying, but what if it were just a skills competition instead of a game, right? Not a year goes by that you don't hear people saying, but what if it were just a skills competition instead of a game, right? We got an email from a Patreon supporter, David, who said, my son said he would like to see an MLB skills competition.

Obviously, there is risk involved with the idea, but the Home Run Derby is basically a skills comp. What other skills competitions would you like to see? What if we turned injuries off? I think an outfield

range contest would be fun. Catcher pop time and throwing competition would be cool. Sprinting seems boring, but maybe base stealing on a back slash go signal. Home run robberies. Sorry, home run thefts. Pitcher max velo with injuries off, please. Pitcher target throwing like the hockey shooting competition. I'm sure you have some ideas as well. These would all be great. Like, I would love to watch these, if only for the novelty. And then maybe if every year was a skills competition, eventually we'd be like, what if they just played a game?

How much fun would that be? But you want to see what you don't typically see. And, yeah, it would be a lot of fun. I mean, in earlier eras of baseball history, it was more common to see things like throwing competitions or sprinting or base running competitions. And people would compete for who had the best arm and who was the fastest.

And that would be really fun. I mean, if we could see Ellie De La Cruz and Corbin Carroll sprinting or running around the bases, how much fun would that be? Like, that would be awesome, obviously. Or if we saw the hardest throwers doing their hardest throws, like, I would love that. I would absolutely sign up for that either as a supplement to the game or as a replacement. as a supplement to the game or as a replacement. But yeah, it's never going to happen. I mean, even in just the All-Star game and the Home Run Derby, there were a couple, hopefully minor injuries. Luis Robert tweaked his calf in the Home Run Derby and Jordan Romano tweaked his back in the All-Star game.

And you do see pitchers throwing hard in the All-Star game. They're amped up they're going against the best and oleus ds sorry but they're trying to throw hard and you know make the radar readings pop on that stage and with the home run derby format being what it is now where you're swinging really hard and really frequently now without breaks between swings it it does seem like it's probably a little riskier that you could wrench something or other right just as many swings as you're taking now so you're just given that there's not as much interest in the game as there used to be you're never gonna get buy-in from teams or players probably to test their skills

in some way. You know, if the competition is let's max out whatever tool, which is what the Home Run Derby is basically, but I guess it's one of the safer ways to do that, you're just not going to get, hey, throw as hard as you can, run as fast as you can, because it's just not important enough in the grand scheme of things anymore for players to jeopardize. Risk, yeah. Yeah. Their team's fortunes, their own fortunes figuratively and literally, right, it's just – it's not going to happen.

But of course I would love to see it and people talk about other leagues' all-star games and KBO all-star games and, you know, bunting competitions. Like no one bunts anymore. So the bunting competition would probably be really bleak now. It's just a bunch of misses and pop-ups and fouls, right? But, yeah, of course, I would love to see that. Who wouldn't love to see that? Yeah, I mean, it would be very cool. I understand why it doesn't happen.

I don't know. Yeah, I mean, it would be very cool. I understand why it doesn't happen. I don't know. I think that like, I think, I was just like, by the time Julio had reached like 35, I was like, okay, but don't like tweak anything though. Right. Yeah. I mean, time you're fatigued and you're still trying to swing your hardest or throw, yeah, it's greater risk. Right. And so I like, I get that. And, you know, I had, we're there, and we're watching Corbin Carroll, and I'm like, okay, buddy, I'm glad that you're participating.

This is your first All-Star game, but how long is it going to be until Seattle has an All-Star game again? You probably won't be. You might not be a player when that happens. I'm glad you're getting your time, but you be careful with your swings there, young man. I didn't realize this is one of the things that happens when you're in the ballpark. Like, everybody was mic'd up. He was, like, talking to them while he's trying to hit.

Corbin Carroll was. They had, like, five guys mic'd up. I was like, this is weird. Yeah. It's out of control. Okay, I have one hackle left. Here's my hackle. Out of control. Okay. I have one hackle left. Here's my hackle.

Out of control with the mic'd up during these things. And I know we've said the All-Star game is the perfect time to do it. But like do it when they're on defense. Anyway, it doesn't matter. I wasn't going to bring that up. Yeah. I'm in theory okay with it in an exhibition game. It's fine. I don't like it when they're at the plate.

I'm fine with it when they're in the field. That's perfect. But at the plate, that strikes something about that still bothers me, even in an exhibition setting like that. But all of that to say, I think that this is probably as good as it's going to get. Maybe there's a version of the game itself that could be a little better or something. the game itself that could be a little better or something but like i i don't think a skills competition is going to be as you know it's certainly not going to be likely and honestly the part of it that is the most dynamic skill from a competition perspective is probably the derby like we might just have the best version of that that's available to us so i don't know man i think

i think it's uh i think it pretty – the whole thing is pretty good. And if they just move the draft back to June, the whole thing would be perfect. Yeah. Look, I mean, even though some of the all-stars maybe make you raise your eyebrow, most of the all-stars are so good and so compelling and charismatic and skilled and talented. We're living in a pretty good timeline when it comes to the baseball boys now. Yeah, we love those baseball boys. So last time we talked, you had to go to the BBWA meeting where some sports betting stuff was going to be discussed.

And then also Rob Manfred and Tony Clark did their annual All-Star Game addresses and Q&As. So what went down at the meeting? We voted to study the gambling question. I don't think we really talked about it, although I did have to scoot out to the restroom. So maybe a conversation happened while I was there. But if it did, it was very brief. gambling stuff just to make sure that we are formally safeguarding the particularly the awards voting process, which I think is the right instinct. I don't think that it is being the spirit of that is being violated right now, but I think that it is incumbent upon us to

really formalize that process so that everyone has confidence in uh freaking fair elections um so we're gonna do that then we got the we got the usual availability with with tony clark and rob manfred which was i think largely uneventful um yeah manfred didn't didn't step in it too much by his standards no by his standards he did not. He did have one awkward stretch discussing the economic impact of ballparks where he is still just having a loosey-goosey relationship with what I would term the truth. But otherwise, my main takeaway was, did you get a little bit more media training between now or between your gaffes, your A's and Pride Night related gaffes and today? Because he seemed to be going out of his way to, you know, when he had an opportunity to acknowledge

the important contributions of, say, the Players Association in policymaking roles, he did that. And I thought was far less antagonistic than he has been in that setting in the past. Certainly in my experience of him in that setting in the past. Well, he announced that he's running for reelection, right? He's running. I don't know if he said that at – he said that – He said that at some point. Yeah, chatting with folks after the fact.

But I don't recall that being part of his little stomp. So he's got to shake some hands and kiss some babies. Not that making nice with the press or the players is necessarily what he's going to be renewed on. Yeah, we're not the target audience and neither are the players is necessarily what he's going to be renewed on. He just. Yeah, we're not the target audience and neither are the players for that for that particular campaign. But yeah, we are we are not part of the voting body there. But it sounds like he only has to get approval once he says he wants to be commissioner again

and have his term extended. Then it's like even easier for him to get reelected. Like he could get extended at any time with a three quarter approval of the owners. But once there's like this reelection window, then he only has to get a majority. So he's a cinch to stay in that job, which he says it's the best job. He's certainly well compensated for doing the job. And I think owners probably have reason to be pleased with how he's doing the job, even if all fans are not pleased. So we're in for probably many more years of Manfred.

And so I guess it's good that he managed to come across a little less antagonistic than he typically does. come across a little less antagonistic than he typically does. That isn't to say that like we assembled there, like agreed with everything he said, obviously, but he didn't step in it quite so hard. For the most part, he didn't step in it really at all. But the stadium stuff remains like not, his answers there remain not great. And I think they're unlikely to change because he wants public financing for stadiums but um you know he said something to the effect and i'm not directly quoting here obviously but about the you know the economic impact is real and those studies the studies are overly broad they don't consider you know the particular dynamics of baseball which

isn't true there are plenty of studies that look at baseball stadiums specifically. And all you have to do is look at Truist Park. And I'm like, I'm pretty sure there's a study on Truist in particular. So, you know, that one remains not the best. And some of the ways he talked about the neighborhood surroundings, the Nationals Park was um not really great either but um but otherwise it was a um a less antagonistic uh version of the commissioner than we have seen so i'm not saying that's good or bad like i've said before on this podcast there is something um i think useful in his previous sort of difficulty doing the schmooze, right? Like that he is not a comfortable political operator in those contexts, I think gives way to more revealing answers about

what he really thinks about things. And even though I wish that the person occupying that role had a different set of priorities than he tends to, I think that it is edifying to, you know, fans in particular to have a commissioner that they're not overly enamored of. So, you know, but it was a notable vibe shift. So, you know, or maybe he just really loves Seattle. And so he was in a good mood. I don't know. Yeah. And I guess one of the newsier things to come out of those talks was Tony Clark, again, talking about the player's preference for more time on the pitch clock when we get to the postseason, which Manfred said he was open to, but made clear he prefers not to do. And we talked about this maybe before the season started. This came up then. Players were talking about it. Scott Boris was talking about

it. Having seen most of the season now with the pitch clock as it is, are you more or less inclined to side with the players here and wanting a little more leeway? I thought about it a lot while we were sitting there. I was like, what is my particular preference here? I am not bothered by the way that the pitch clock has played out in the regular season. And I don't even know if I am so bothered by the potential of a game, a decisive game, a World Series game ending on a pitch clock violation. Because there are a lot of doofy ways for baseball games to end. And we maintain the doof potential in the postseason, right? It's not like we're like, well, a game can't end on a bach in the World Series.

It could. That potential exists. Is it could, you know, that potential exists. Is it likely? Not particularly. Is it likely that a game ends on a pitch clock violation in the World Series? I would submit probably low likelihood on that one too, but probably higher than a Bach. Yeah, I guess in that case, you could have umpires exercise some discretion when it comes to calling a Bach, whereas if there is

a pitch clock, then you can't do anything about it, right? Sure. So, you know, and what a funny thing that this is a case where we're like, no, no, give the umps discretion because that's not something we're normally big advocates of. But yeah, like I think that the discourse around it would be unbearable. And so in that case, maybe give them five extra seconds. And you would say, hey, Meg, you could just not be on Twitter. And I would say, you know, touche, but I would have to talk about it on this podcast. So maybe loosen it up a little.

I do find Clark's argument kind of persuasive that the main sources of sort of increased length to games in the postseason are not, you know, if and all the pitching changes and, you know, the way that pitching in particular is deployed come October. And I think the commercial breaks are longer in the postseason, right? And certainly, I think they might be a little bit more frequent. So I think that like, we're just kind of in for longer stuff come October regardless. And so if it's lengthened out a little bit longer to give breathing room to those moments and avoid a potential, you know, game altering violation. Yeah. OK. The most exciting thing. Well, you say more about the pitch clock thing and then I'm going to stump for the challenge system again.

Right. Well, I'm fine with the way things are now. I don't think there needs to be a change. I guess I wouldn't be upset if there were, but I'm not in favor. Got aside with Mr. Manfred on this one, I think, thus far, because we haven't seen a game end in that manner. That's not to say that it couldn't happen. Which is a point that he made.

Yeah. Yeah. And also, I think it gets less and less likely that we will because violations have become less frequent as the season has gone on. Yes, they're trending downward. Yeah. Everyone's adjusted to it. That'll even more be the case by the time we get to October, right? Like if you have a violation at that point after playing an entire season, then you've kind of earned it.

I mean, not that that would be great from a spectator standpoint, but still, it's not like you weren't warned or you didn't have time to adjust to it. And personally, I haven't felt like the pitch clock has really sapped a lot of drama from the proceedings. That was one concern I had. Like, why would we want to rush things when it's the postseason and you've got these big matchups and it matters so much and the stakes are so high, I still think it's just as enjoyable going at the pace it's going. And I think, look, it seems to be working. Obviously, it's had the intended effect when it comes to trimming time. Whether or not this is because of the pitch clock, I don't know. But attendance is up. MLB is crowing about the average age of ticket buyers has fallen. Right. So just good news all around when it comes to

interest in baseball these days. And if you want people to tune in for the postseason when the games are normally at their longest, then make them snappy and the games start later typically. So yeah, if we could have one postseason when people aren't complaining about, think about the children and can't my kids watch the World Series or whatever, that would, that'd be kind of nice. And I am generally in favor of consistent rules and having the same sort of rules and conditions in the regular season that we have in the postseason. And obviously there is already the big exception of the zombie runner, which goes away in the postseason. I don't mind being inconsistent when it comes to that because I'm consistent on my main platform, which is I hate

the zombie runner. So I'm okay with inconsistency there if it means less zombie runner. And also, one of the reasons I hate the zombie runner is the inconsistency of the conditions and the rules from the first nine innings to any innings thereafter. So I think that's somewhat intellectually consistent of me anyway. But in general, I'd prefer to have things played under the same conditions. You play the whole season a certain way, you get to the postseason playing a certain way, then you should continue to play that way, which is why I kind of like when there aren't so many off days in the postseason so that teams have to use more of their pitching staff, right?

And it's not like you're favored to win in the postseason much more if you're constructed a certain way than you were during the regular season. So inevitably, there are going to be some differences, but I'd prefer to minimize those. And since it hasn't been a problem thus far, I feel like if it ain't broke, don't fix it. I think that's fine. You hear these hackles, they're not raised. Yeah. But Ben, Ben, most important thing. Yeah. Challenge system. Most important thing was that Manfred was asked about the RoboZone versus the challenge system, which we discussed they used the challenge system in the Futures game. So, you know, he was watching, and they were enthusiastic.

They said, ah, it's good. And he said, and he qualified this, but he's like, if we had to make a decision today, and we don't, so, you know, but if we had to make a decision today between the challenge system and the full automatic zone, that the challenge system would be the direction that they would go because the feedback in the minors is very positive. He is now seeing fans. So I hope they were effectively wild listeners and have helped to spread the gospel to the commissioner. But the challenge system, Ben, my best take. commissioner. But the challenge system, Ben, my best take, you know, long term might be one of my very best takes because it is, I think, the perfect solution. And it sounds like the good people on the sweet level agreed. And that made an impression on old Rob Manfred. So there we go. Yeah, yeah. No, it does seem to be ascendant

in MLB's affections. I hope to do a stat blast one of these episodes on how things have gone in AAA on days when the challenge system is in use versus the full automatic ball strike system. But not today.

But yes, people like it. So I'm glad you're getting your way on that. So yeah, it was a good week. It was a fun week. There was also news about how international the game is getting. There are going to be games in South Korea next year as well as in Mexico City and London again. Dominican Republic in spring training, which I love. This is one of the MLB initiatives that I'm fully in favor of, just playing in as many places as possible, showcasing the international aspect of the game with the WBC and also the Traveling Roadshow. So yeah, feeling pretty good about baseball this week. It's nice. And we have an interview to bring you for the rest of this episode. So there is a new documentary out. It's called The League, and it's about the Negro Leagues. And it's a pretty comprehensive documentary.

It's directed by Sam Pollard. It's executive produced by some famous people, including Questlove and Black Thought from The Roots. We are not going to be talking to Questlove or Black Thought today. However, we are talking to one of the producers and one of the driving forces and inspirations behind the film, Byron Motley, who will now streamable in various places. So Friday, July 14th, you can now go watch it in digital form and Amazon Prime and YouTube and Apple TV and many other places, right? So we will link to where you can find it. And I enjoyed it. I think it's a very good overview of black baseball history and what made the Negro League special and some of the great personalities of the game, but also sort of the part it played in black history and

the country at large and tying it to larger social trends and forces and integration and civil rights, et cetera, in general. So I think it's, if you don't know a ton about the Negro Leagues, it's a great place to start. And even if you do know a fair amount, there's probably something you'll learn and it's enjoyable nonetheless. And you will recognize some people we've had the pleasure of having on the podcast in the past, like Shakia Taylor and Andrea Williams and Larry Lester and Bob Kendrick. A lot of great current talking heads, but also a lot of great archival footage, as we will talk to Byron about.

So I enjoyed it and would recommend it. Yeah, I would recommend it also. And yes, I think that the archival footage I particularly appreciated, I think both because, you know, it's so meaningful to hear from those guys themselves. And also, I do think that there's, and we can talk, we'll talk about this in the interview. I think that it's really valuable for people to be able to see like, no, these guys were living at a time when we could get them on camera and interview them. You know, I think reinforcing the proximity, historical proximity of these events to today is really important to appreciating both progress that has been made and progress that still needs to be made, you know, because it can be really easy to look at black and white photos and think that, oh, well, that was so distant. That was so in the past. And it's like, no, these guys were alive and on camera relatively recently

within, you know, our country's history. So I think that there's a lot of, it helps people to absorb that in a way that, that simply having the, you know, the still photos floating across the screen doesn't quite deliver, you know, it doesn't give it to you in quite the same way. So I really appreciated that piece of it, especially. Yeah. All right. Well, before we go to the past, let's go to the future with our future blast from the year 2032. Year 2032. And also, of course, from Rick Wilber, who is an award-winning writer, editor, and college professor who has been described as the dean of science fiction baseball. And he writes, the big news of the 2032 season came early in the year when the Kansas City Royals brought up AAA manager Kelsey Whitmore from the Omaha Storm Chasers on May 4th to take

over as interim manager after the Royals' terrible start led to the firing of manager Henry Doubtful. Whitmore helped the Royals recover their footing and climb to third place in the AL Central by season's end. That move was part of an increasingly open door for other women coaches, including the San Francisco Giants' Alyssa Nacken, who'd been the first woman to coach in a major league game back in April of 2022 when she'd take over as first base coach following the ejection of Antoine Richardson. After years of progress on the coaching staff, leading to a three-year stint as first base coach for the big club, Nacken was named manager of the single San Jose Giants

after Ralph Richardson was let go following the club's 1-22 start to the season. Nacken had the team back to 500 by season's end. Whitmore seemed to find some rapport with the AI skip software in the dugout, where it was in an advisory role for the 2032 season but might well take over by 2034. Teams would be allowed to have an artificially intelligent manager by that season. Jokes about managers and owners and artificial intelligence abounded, but like a number of managers, Whitmore reported that the advice from her AI, Robbie, had been something she'd leaned on heavily.

Like the majority of coaches and players, Whitmore wore Apple Be There glasses and gloves and had a million followers in the first month and tens of thousands more as the season went along. Her habit of talking to herself as she listened to Robbie's advice enhanced the appeal of her Be There presence. Speed and hitting, as usual, dominated the action in 2032 as Diamondbacks shortstop Jordan Lawler had a slash line of 325, 399, 420 to lead the American League in hitting. The Diamondbacks apparently switched leagues while also stealing 114 bases as the stolen base remained one of the most exciting parts of the game with the designated runners going wild.

Four other players in the AL also had 100 or more steals. Finishing fourth in the American League with 105 was designated runner Kristen Diaz, who finished fourth, though she lost three weeks of the season to the Summer Olympics in Brisbane, where she medaled three times for Cuba in the sprints, nabbing a silver in the 100-meter dash, a bronze in the 200, and a silver in the 4x100. All right. A lot going on in 2032. Yeah, busy, busy year.

Yeah. All right. Well, we will be back in just a moment with Byron. I meant to mention, by the way, since you talked about the sports betting conversation, did you see the details about the Alabama baseball gambling scandal? Did you see the details about the Alabama baseball gambling scandal? Pat Ford wrote about what actually happened there for Sports Illustrated in a bit more detail with the Alabama baseball coach being fired and someone placing a bet at a sports book because an Alabama pitcher was scratched. And Bohannon, the manager, the head coach, he let this guy know about it, gave him the inside tip, and then he went and placed a bet. Still, I guess, unclear whether Bohannon was looking to profit personally or was just passing along this tip. But the way that it went down was

such a comedy of errors and so silly that I wish all sports bettors would be this obvious about the way they went about it, because then we wouldn't have to worry about any sort of scandals. So this guy who placed the bet on April 28th, Bert Eugene Neff Jr., who seems like kind of a shady character overall, he went into the bet MGM sports book at Great American Ballpark in Cincinnati. And he wanted to bet more than $100,000 on Alabama versus LSU, which had gotten almost no gambling action to that point. And so his bet would far outstrip the established house limit on college baseball because people don't typically bet the house on college baseball. And so they were like, no, that's too much.

And then he was pleading his case to be allowed to place the bet by saying that he had inside information, like as a way of persuading them to let him place the bet, which seems very silly. And then also. He just like presented himself to law enforcement effectively. Pretty much. And also he was texting, messaging with Brad Bohannon, the coach, via Signal, the encrypted messaging app. But he was doing it at the betting window. And he was doing it so obviously that the surveillance cameras at the sportsbook could zoom in on the text exchange. So he had this encrypted messaging app,

but he was just like brandishing his phone such that the video, they could see Bohannon's name in the screenshots so they could tell that the texts were coming to him. So, and at the same time, there were like people elsewhere in the country also trying to place big bets on this game. So like every red flag

went up and they were like, no. So yeah, like, I guess the, it's good that this was noticed, but also it makes you think like, gosh, if you knew what you were doing, then maybe it would not be quite so easy to catch them. But the way they went about it in this case, you read about it, it's just like buffoonery. It's like like they were doing this as some sort of cover operation to make it look like all of the gambling operations would be this dumb so that we'd underestimate the risk or something. I'm sure that's not what happened, but just the dumbest way you could possibly go about it, seemingly. So it's it's it's silly. At first it was like, oh, this is concerning. Maybe it is still concerning.

But the specifics of this particular situation are just laughable. It's like, hey, we watched Ocean's Eleven. We didn't learn any lessons from that, though. No, you know, that's so funny. Yeah, it's great. All right. We'll be back in just a moment with Byron Motley to talk about the league. And in this clip from the movie that you're about to hear, the first voice will be Bob

Kendricks. He's the president of the Negro Leagues Baseball Museum. And after him, you'll hear the late Maya Angelou, interviewed years ago by our guest, Byron Motley. To go to a Negro Leagues game, you could feel the immense pride that Black folks had about this product known as the Negro Leagues to a large degree because they understood that it was something that was inherently ours

that was shared with the rest of the world, but it was still ours. The stories about the American Negro Baseball League were always good news. People would say, did you hear about the league? And you always knew that they meant the Negro Baseball League. All right, we are back and we are joined by Byron Motley, who is a man of many vocations. He is a singer and songwriter and a author and a photographer, but he is also a filmmaker, which is mostly what we're going to be talking about today. talking about today. He is one of the producers and one of the animating forces behind The League, which premiered at the Tribeca Film Festival this year and is now available for everyone to stream.

Byron, welcome to the show. Thank you. It's nice to be here. So tell us about your dad, because your dad, Bob, is really a presence in this film. We hear his words. We hear about his experiences. He seemed to pack multiple lives worth of living into his long lifespan. So for people who haven't seen the movie yet, could you talk a little bit about everything he did

and accomplished and the part he ended up playing in The League? Yeah, well, he was quite a man. He lived life with passion and loved everything about baseball, and especially when it came down to the Negro Leagues. So I grew up hearing his stories, and he often would go back and tell his stories. And my mother and I and sister would look at each other and kind of roll our eyes like, oh my God, here he goes again.

He's talking about this old history. Yeah, he just had such a passion for every day, for life, just living it. And then, like I said, recapping and telling his stories over and over. And as I got older, I realized that these are some really incredible stories he's sharing with us, with the family. Rarely would he talk about the stories with other friends, but sometimes he would. And sometimes I would have him tell my kids I was hanging out with, Daddy, tell them that story about when you were in the Negro Leagues or World War II. Those were some harrowing stories that he had to tell. Yes, he just enjoyed talking about that history

and his passion for what he had been through and seen. And so I just started thinking this needs to be I need to start sharing the story and well, he needs to start sharing this story with people. And so we wrote this book together and kind of started the ball rolling toward making this documentary. Yeah, and the book is called

Ruling Over Monarchs, Giants, and Stars, Umpiring in the Negro Leagues and Beyond. And for those who don't know, Bob Motley was a Negro Leagues umpire in the 40s and 50s and World War II veteran, Purple Heart recipient, fought at Okinawa and elsewhere and then went on to play a part in the founding of the Negro Leagues Baseball Museum and became something of an ambassador, was the last living Negro Leagues umpire until he passed away at age 94 in 2017. So he saw a lot and did a lot. And a lot of what he saw and did makes its way into the film through the writings that he left us with.

So tell us about the road to getting this movie made, because I know it has been a long time coming for you. Yeah, I started on this process 24 years ago. I was having dinner with a friend of mine in New York who I just met through some mutual friends here in LA. They said, when you're in New York doing the show on Broadway, I was working on Broadway at the time, you've got to meet our friend Gene Davis who's a movie producer himself. I had just seen the Ken Burns documentary on baseball.

And there was one hour he did dedicated to the Negro Leagues. Right. So I'm sitting there in my apartment watching this documentary and thought, oh, that's really, really good. I said, but those are not the stories I heard growing up as a child. I said, somebody really needs to tell that story. And so lo and behold, I was having dinner that night with Gene Davis, a friend of mine who I just met. And so we're sitting at dinner and I started telling him some stories about my father in the Negro Leagues. And as I got through the

story, he was laughing and we were having a good time. The wine was kicking in. We were having a good discussion and then I finished. I said, you know, those are some of my father's stories. I said, what do you think about this being a movie or documentary? He says, I love it. He says, absolutely. He says, but I'm not the person to do this story.

He says, you are. And I laughed so loud and so hard, almost fell into the floor in the restaurant because I thought he was crazy. I said, Gene, I don't know a thing about the film industry. I'm not interested. I'm doing music. And that's all I really care about. He says, no, no, no, you are going to do this. And I thought, oh, whatever. And lo and behold, he and I became really good friends. He would call me like every week. And the first thing he would say on the phone is, and this is calling from New York. The first thing he said is, how's that project coming

along? And I said, Gene, I'm not doing that. I am not doing that. So this went back and forth for a while. And then I was watching another documentary on TV and it kind of hit me. I said, you know, I can do this. You can do this. You can tell the story about the Negrilese. You need to do this. Jane is right. So that began the process of me calling Jane that night, one o'clock in the morning in New York. He said, no, no, no, call me back in the morning because I'm sleeping now. And I called him back in the morning. And, yeah, so he just started guiding me and telling me how to start making this into a documentary. And then it took 24 years to make it happen. But that's really what got the ball rolling on the project.

That's really what got the ball rolling on the project. Well, and in that time, I mean, obviously you and your family have been connected to the broader sort of research community around the Negro Leagues. But there's been so much work done to help fill in the historical record, both in terms of the statistical record of those leagues and also making sure to document the experiences of the men who played in them. And I'm curious sort of what the interplay was like for you as you're, you know, working to incorporate your father's story and then also to engage with many of the researchers who end up appearing in the film and who we've had the great pleasure of talking to. How did that sort of back and forth play out over such an extended process? The current historians know their stuff. I've known most of them for years now. So they know their history, you know, as well as I do. So to blend that together with the stories of the men and women who were around at that time and played and knew and were part of that history.

To blend that together is, you know, it's daunting because you want to tell the story, the full story as much as you can and be honest with telling those stories. telling those stories. And I think we were able to make that happen, to really tell an honest story of what really went on. The historians did a really, really great job because they studied this history. They've heard this history for three years, as I have. They get it. They understand it. And so to blend that together with the actual people who created this history and saw it and were part of it, it's almost breathtaking. Because there's just so many great stories. One player once told me in an interview, he says, there's so much depth to the Negro Leagues. I said, yeah, you're right. Yeah.

He says, there's so much depth to the Negro Leagues. I said, yeah, you're right. And is the fact that this project came to fruition now as opposed to 24 years ago, is that a reflection of just the belated but increased interest in the Negro Leagues and attention paid to the Negro Leagues even in the past few years as MLB and other entities have reevaluated what the Negro Leagues meant and how they should be classified and how their stats should be gathered and presented, etc. I mean, would your dad even be surprised by what has happened just in the past few years when it comes to bringing this to a wider audience? few years when it comes to bringing this to a wider audience? Absolutely. He was fascinated and shocked by all I had accomplished 20 years ago, even with this book. He's like, people want to hear these stories? Yeah, they want to hear these stories. Because they didn't, like Bob Kendrick says in the film, toward the end of the film, this is something I've said for years, these guys didn't care about making no money. They didn't care about history. They were just playing a ball game. They didn't realize

they were making history. They just wanted to play games and have a lot of fun doing it. And they did. So it's up to us, younger generation now and people younger than me to keep that legacy alive and to keep talking about it and keep studying it. Because these players weren't around to really tell a lot of their stories because they didn't really think of it as being anything that special. It's just part of their lives. Like my father, you know, he would go down memory lane and recap what he had been through, but he didn't realize that that was, you know, American history. He's just, that was just his life, just things that happened to him. When I started this process 24 years ago, I thought, oh, I'll get this done in a year's time, maybe two. And then here we are 24 years later and finally, finally got it done. And I think also you're asking about, you know, why is it maybe more of getting more attention now?

And I think a lot of that has to do with possibly the Black Lives Matter. I think that really kind of helped open people's eyes to what's been happening in this country when it comes down to Black issues. So I think that really helped move this project forward. Unfortunately, I think it took that, but I think people started going, oh, there's more to these people than just them, you know, getting shot and killed in streets. Why is that happening? You go back to when the Negro League started and before that, and you see all the things, some things that have not changed.

Right. And until recently, a lot of people, even people who would have considered themselves serious baseball fans, were not well-informed about the Negro Leagues. It was not necessarily something they learned about the Negro Leagues. It was not necessarily something they learned about or were exposed to. And maybe they had heard of Josh Gibson and Satchel Paige, right? But they didn't know other names. They didn't know the whole sweep of the history. But to you, it must have been much more personal and less abstract and less, you know, black and white images that you might see it. It must have seemed like rich, vibrant living history because of the connection that

you had to your dad and the connection that he had to it. But also, you grew up, I read with Buck O'Neill and Satchel Paige and Hilton Smith, you know, living in the neighborhood, right? I mean, these were flesh and blood people to you, right? So I don't know whether that made them seem less like legends because you knew them as human beings or whether it connected you more to that history. Yeah, it definitely did. I mean, obviously when I was walking to the park

right around the corner from our house and I'd walk past Hilton Smith's house every day during the summer, go to the park and play. And he'd be sitting on the front step. No, in his rocking chair or just sitting there, you know, watching the kids walk by. And I see him, I wave and he's way back. He's, Hey, little Motley. He knew who I was. And I said, how does that old man know who I am? But everybody knew everybody. Even when I saw Buck O'Neill after, God, many years at the Negro League Baseball Museum,

right before I interviewed him for the documentary, I walked in to see my uncle, who was the executive director of the museum at that time. And I walk into the office and there's Buck O'Neill. And the first thing Buck stands up and he gives me this big hug. He says, little Motley. He calls me little Motley too. I said, where did they get this little Motley from? But yeah, so I grew up around those people.

And I was at the game when Satchel Paige, I must have been four or five years old, when Satchel Paige pitched three innings of the game to get his major league pension with the Kansas City A's. We went to all the A's home games. And then, of course, when the Royals came along, I'm a diehard Royals fan. And so, yeah, so I grew up watching some of this history and didn't realize what I was really watching or seeing at that time and meeting these players and seeing these players. Now, I will say that my father was not really that friendly with players from the Negrilies while I was growing up because he was the umpire and they were ballplayers. So there was a, not a disconnect, but they said hello to each other. They didn't hang out at all because, you know, he was an umpire. And as my father said, nobody respects or honors an umpire. The umpires are the forgotten persons on the ball field so yeah so there wasn't a whole lot of connection until they created the New England Baseball Museum and then they became lifelong friends so that that took you know what 30 years ago that that museum was founded so all that time when I grew up from the time of I was

you know early early on in life there was no connection between the players and that one umpire because they were separate. And my father was a true umpire and he believed in being an umpire until the day passed. So. Yeah. I imagine it had to have been a very interesting perspective to have on those guys. I wondered, you know, did he think, oh, so-and-so, he always complains too much about the zone, or this guy's trying to get one over on me. Oh, yeah. Sure.

Matter of fact, Buck O'Neill, in his 70-some years in baseball, he was only thrown out of one baseball game. And who do you think threw him out of the game? That's fantastic. I wish that story had been in the doc. I really wish that it had been in the doc, because people will love that story. What did Buck do to get him?

Well, there was a... My father says it was one thing. It was a close play at the plate. Buck said it was another play. And so as my father said, Buck said, they got into an argument and he said, Buck said the magic words. And I said, what were they about? My father never told me what Buck said. Never. Player umpire confidentiality.

Confidentiality. But Buck kind of hinted that he said you blind so and so and that did it so Buck went out of the game and my father threw him out and then that night they get to the hotel he's on the bus with the teams

with the team, the monarchs get to the hotel where they were staying. And my father realized, oh, shit, I don't have a place to stay. I don't have a room. So he had to go up to Buck, and he said, no, Buck, I don't have a place to stay tonight. He says, Molly, that's all right. He says, just stay in my room. Here's the key.

And gave my father the key. My father went to the room, and he went to the room and he went into the room and there was this little small bed not a king size or queen size it was one little bed in the room and my father said oh no I gotta sleep in the bed with this man I just threw out a ball game and

so Buck came into the room a little bit later and they had to sleep in the same bed together after being thrown out of the game. And he told me when I was much younger, he says, Buck has never mentioned that to me at all. Never talked about until one time my father was telling somebody about the story and then Buck was there and they laughed about the story. But yeah, that's the one time. So stories like that, you can't make that stuff multiple times per day to make ends meet. Obviously, they're not making a lot of money even so. And there are stories about Henry Aaron having to have one piece of bread and peanut butter and stretch that for days, right? And so what were things like for umpires? I wonder, A, how many umpires were there in a typical Negro Leagues game? And then, you know, with the travel and his accommodations and

his pay and everything, how difficult was that? Yeah, it was the same, even worse, because nobody really respected an umpire. And he had to travel on the same bus with the ball team when he was a chief umpire and so he'd go around the country and the buses with the balls these ball players who wanted to kill him and you know he got into fights in the ball and the buses with some of the players one player pulled out a a knife and tried to slice my father up because he didn't like a call he had made. And again, Buck O'Neill saved his life. My father was a tough, tough man. He was a Marine, so he didn't mess with the Marine.

Yeah. So, yeah, so he had to deal with all that stuff, you know, staying in shanty hotels or sleeping in cars. So everything that the ballplayers went through, the umpires had to go through the same thing. And a lot less money. When my father first started, he was paid $5 a game. And

he said that the owner of the Monarchs told him, you should be happy you're getting at least that. And then when he started traveling with the teams a little bit later, he would get $300 a month, which was a lot of money back then for a ballplayer or for an umpire. But he said he would have to pay not only for his lodging,

wherever they stayed, he'd have to send money back home to my mom. So he wasn't making a lot of money, but he didn't care about really the money. He was enjoying being a part of the games and umpiring a baseball game. He said he would rather have umpired a baseball game than eat a meal. And many times he had to. He wasn't getting any nourishment or food, but he was umpiring a game, and that's what he really cared about.

You mentioned the sort of recent events around Black Lives Matter helping to ignite renewed or even new interest in the Negro Leagues from fans who had previously not known that history very well. I think one of the things that I was struck by watching the documentary, obviously, you know, you have a lived experience of your father. He was, you know, a man alive recently. But when you're incorporating interview footage with men who played in those leagues and it's, you know, it's bright and in color as

opposed to sort of the sepia toned photographs that we see are black and white photographs. You know, did you guys think about how to really convey to the audience that this is history that has passed, but is still proximate to today? I think that we tend to think about that era of baseball as bygone and very far in the past, but, you know, these men were living until quite recently. So, how did you think about making that sort of connection to today? Because I think when we think about history as very far in the past, we can sort of let the current moment off the hook a little bit, right? Because, well, that happened a long time ago,

but it didn't happen all that long ago in the sort of relative history of this country. So I'm curious how you guys thought about the temporal aspect of that, I guess maybe is a way to put that. I think it's kind of talked about a little bit to some degree in the doc because you see the footage of more current Black players who were in the majors, not so much now, but you see the players who were playing in the 70s and the 80s. So I think that connection shows how far these guys came and what they did.

And then there's the whole aspect of, I always say that if you watch a baseball game now, you'll maybe not see that many young Black kids playing the game, but there are a lot of players from Latin American countries who are of Black descent who are byproducts of the Negro Leagues. And so all of those current players

who are playing in the game, they, their ancestors learn how to play the game from a lot of the Black players who came to their countries and introduced the game of baseball to them, as well as Japan. The Black players were amongst the first to go to Japan and play baseball and introduce the game to them. So the great Ichiro Ichiro and... Shohei Otani.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. He's an incredible player. He's a byproduct of the Negro Leagues because he, no, not him himself, but Black players went to Japan before Babe Ruth and taught them how to play the game. So, you know, he owes a gratitude to, he probably doesn't realize that, but he should be giving an honor and respect to the Negro League players who his ancestors learned the game from, and he learned from them. Yeah. And there are a number of ways that I think you bring that action to life, as Meg said. I mean, I know you did, what, more than 100 interviews, right? And so you have this great footage of the double duty Radcliffs and all of these players who are no longer with us.

My buddy. And also Maya Angelou, for instance, right? And just so many great testimonials. And then also when specific games come up, you know, there are animations, there are recreations, right? Was there any archival footage really available of Negro Leagues games, Negro Leagues players, you know, when you were all sort of scouring for footage, what was out there?

Yeah, we found some, but unfortunately, there's not a lot of footage that we know of. It may be in somebody's basement or somebody's house that, you know, Grandpa took and kids might not even realize he's even there we found what what was available we could find quincy troop whose father played in the leagues also uh his father had taken a lot of videos of games and and uh the travel with the teams so some of that is being used in the doc so somebody has more somewhere, unless somebody just tossed it out, which they did in the Negro Leagues, unfortunately. For instance, my father, when he was umpiring home plate, he would get the lineup card from each of the managers of the opposing teams for the day. So he'd look at the line of cards, all these great names on the line of card, and kept them in his pocket. And after the game was over, he'd take it and throw it in the trash. His game was over. That was history. He realized, he told me later, he says, oh my God, that was

like a million dollars I was holding in my hand and didn't realize it because there's playing a game. So a lot of that, what would be considered archival materials, probably just were tossed out by people who didn't realize that they were holding history in their hands at that time. Negro Leagues within the larger context of American history and African-American history. It's the Negro Leagues as sort of a bellwether, a symbol, a microcosm of everything that was happening in the country at that time, right? And not just with segregation and discrimination and racism, but just larger trends and forces like the Great Migration kind of creating the conditions that would be conducive to black baseball leagues and, you know, what it meant to have these largely black-owned businesses. And then later on, of course, when the doc talks about the double victory campaign, right,

and the impact of World War II and these men who fought for their country and then came back to being second-class citizens and didn't want to accept those conditions anymore, which I guess your father experienced that personally too. So can you talk a little bit about how you think the Negro Leagues, you know, beyond just being a compelling baseball league with incredible baseball players, just reflected that larger experience? You know, what can you learn about American history and African-American history through the lens of these leagues?

I think it's obvious. Just open your eyes and see how the world is today and think back about how it was 50, 60, 70, 80 years, 100 years ago, and how we've made progress. But with the progress, there's been a price for that progress, and it's a progress that has to be continued. So we have to keep, unfortunately, keep fighting to make changes and honor what people have done, what people are still trying to do. what people have done, what people are still trying to do. It's a continued kind of, I guess, a continued process to make a difference and to have an understanding of what we've been through and what we have to go through to be more human with each other and to appreciate what we've done and who people are and the differences. The differences are beautiful.

If you stop and think about it, you're different than I am. We're all different from each other. And that's the beauty of life. If we just accept it, that's a beautiful thing. I think if that's accepted and we share it, instead of trying to make it a challenge, it's really more of a, oh, look at this togetherness. What can we achieve by coming together? That's a beautiful thing. That's a beautiful thing if we can do it. If we can do it. that Major League Baseball likes to tell today in 2023 about integration focuses understandably

on the social and moral progress of that, but it doesn't tend to account for the cost, right? It doesn't pay any mind to F.A. Manley not receiving any form of compensation as players are getting signed away. It doesn't talk about Branch Rickey's attitude toward signing guys out of the Negro Leagues and not thinking that he needed to compensate their clubs when he did that. I wonder if you can talk about how you might want to see that story told to a broader audience, because I think that, you know, we get caught up in the

pomp and circumstance of Jackie Robinson Day every year, and as well we should, but there's a piece of that story that still feels like it's missing and isn't being accounted for. And there was, you know, that progress did come at real cost to those clubs and communities. Well, I'm working on a film about Effa Manley to tell that story and what she went through and her team and her players. So I think stories will come, will help tell those stories. And I think Major League Baseball is overall doing a pretty good job. A couple of years ago, they had started honoring the Negro Leagues as a whole

before they were just talking about one player here, one player there, and now they just start honoring the Negro Leagues as a whole. So that's some progress, But, you know, more talk about the leagues and who these players and owners were and about the three women who played in the Negro Leagues. There's not a lot of talk about them. So there's so many more stories to be told and to lighten and to show the world.

Yeah, I was going to ask about the depiction of Ricky because people who probably don't know that much about the history beyond the broad strokes think of Ricky as a hero, right? Arm in arm with Jackie. And obviously it was important what he did, but he was not purely motivated by selfless reasons. He was sort of a robber baron. He saw an untapped talent pool here and took advantage of it.

I never felt he was right to take those valuable players and not give us a nickel for them. I felt that was very wrong. And we should have had some little compensation. But we were in no position to protest, and he knew it. So he just completely outmaneuvered us, outsmarted us, or just plain raped us. I don't know what you'd say, how you'd describe it. To say that F. Emanley couldn't stand Branch Rickey might be an understatement.

Integration took place, and I begged Dave to quit the next year because we dropped another $20,000. I mean, the fans deserted us to go see the boys on the white team. Deserted us like they say rats desert a ship. And I was wondering, because one of the main characters in Neuqually's history and in the doc is Rube Foster, right, who is a great pitcher and an owner and a visionary who was really the driving force behind the Negro National League's founding. And he died fairly young. He was 51, possibly because of a gas leak that he was exposed to and then declining health followed that. I wondered as I watched, because the doc mentions that his vision, he hoped that one day there would be some sort of merger, almost like we eventually saw with

the NFL and the AFL or the NBA and the ABA, right? And I don't know whether the major league owners ever would have allowed something like that to happen, But if he had lived longer, if he had still been around when integration happened, or, you know, maybe it would have happened on a different timeline, who knows? I just wonder how the history of the Negro Leagues would have been different because he was such an animating force behind it, you know, whether that would have changed the eventual outcome and the dissolution of the leagues or just, you know, the rise and fall of some of the individual leagues within that time. I mean, do you think that things would have been significantly different if he had been a constant presence

or was his main contribution kind of done already, having gotten everything started? Well, nothing was going to change as long as Landis was in charge. There was going to be no integration. I don't care who came to him and said, you know, we got to do this. Here's a billion dollars to bring these black players into the majors. That wasn't going to happen. So they had to wait for him to leave the planet

to make that happen. So as long as he was running the show, that wasn't going to happen. So I think Rube Foster did all he could do. And what he did, he created this great league that we're still talking about. Thank goodness. So, but yeah, could he have done more

during that time? I really, I really don't think so. But I think he would have tried. And I know, I know he did try. Unfortunately, that's the honest truth. Yeah, right. Yeah. I mean, it's just the doc talks about how the owner's hands were kind of tied when Ricky just decided to. And, you know, you had Bill Veck who would at least make some payment, right? Yeah. And actually, Bill Veck in 1939, Bill Veck was the co-owner of the Philadelphia Phillies. And he was going to stock up a team that year with all black players. That's what he wanted to do. And of course, you know, they told him he was nuts and no, morally right as well, but also he was a showman and he was a promoter.

Yeah, he was a showman, and that would have been amazing. Right. That would have been all the stars of the Negrilese at the time. And of course, he eventually signed Satchel Paige and reaped the rewards financially from that because the attendance boosts were enormous. Of course, yeah. And he was a great man, though. Bill Beck was one of my heroes. That he at least tried, at least did it. He signed Larry Doby and Satchel Paige and others.

So he's a great thing. And we've got to let you go because you have another interview. But I just wanted to say say you mentioned differences being beautiful. And that's another thing that the documentary does a good job of selling, that the brand of baseball in the Negro Leagues was just superior to the brand of baseball that was being played in the AL and NL at the time. Much like the current initiatives to try to get more action, more base stealing, more dynamism into the game. That was what Negro Leagues baseball was like. And some of that eventually filtered into the AL and the NL after integration. But if you had to choose a baseball game to watch in those days, probably the Negro Leagues game would have been more exciting.

Oh, without a doubt. Without a doubt. Yeah, without a doubt. Even Walter Cronkite, just quickly. Walter Cronkite did an interview with him, and he talked about going to Negro League games when he was a kid in Kansas City. So, yeah, he loved the Negro League games, and they were much better than what he had seen with the local all-white team doing. The black teams were far, far better. Far better. And that's coming from Walter Cronkite.

Well, we encourage everyone to go check out the documentary. We will link to where you can find it online now. And you can also find Byron's website at byronmotley.com and learn more about his work. And we're glad that this finally got made. So thanks for sticking with it for so long. All right. Thank you, Byron. Thank you.

All right. That will do it for today. By the way, some of you may have seen a Savannah Bananas highlight of a recent game that ended with a fan catching a foul ball to win the game. That's one of the banana ball rules. If a fan catches a foul ball, it's an out. This was a very fun highlight, but if you're wondering whether this rule should be ported to the big leagues, well, we talked about that on episode 1426, maybe on multiple episodes, but I know we had an extended discussion of that scenario on 1426, which included Sam Miller saying, I didn't have it in me to talk about the darkness of people. I think this works well in banana ball. I'm not sure it would work so well in the big leagues. I'll link to that episode if you want to listen to us explain why. Also, a correction, listener

Andrew wrote in to say during the discussion of switch hitters in the home run derby, Ben mentioned that Lance Berkman hit from the right side because it was his stronger side and to take advantage of the Crawford boxes in Houston in 2004. But actually, he was a much better hitter from the left side. That is true. Lance Berkman was a much better hitter in games, at least from the left side. Berkman actually hit 316 of his 366 career homers from the left side. He was a 304-420-575 hitter from the left side and only 260-360-417 from the right side. Actually, according to StatHead, Berkman has the second biggest career split for a switch hitter who hit better against righties than overall. He had a 52-point OPS differential between his OPS against righties and his overall OPS, which with the minimum I set was second biggest behind only Ripper Collins in his 53-point split. On the other end of the spectrum, being better against lefties, Ozzy Albies currently has the most extreme split. And he has been asked about whether he should stop switch hitting. He says he likes it and doesn't see himself stopping. But Andrew's email sent me down a rabbit hole here. Berkman was a natural right-handed hitter who threw left-handed, but his dad was a big

Mickey Mantle fan and encouraged him to try batting lefty. And so over time, he got more practice from the left side because he faced more righties than lefties. And so over time, he got more practice from the left side because he faced more righties than lefties, and he got to be better from that side. And during his career, he actually said he regretted switch hitting in the majors, but that it was too late for him to stop because he was uncomfortable hitting left on left. This is a player known as one of the best switchers of all time. I got confused and said it sort of backwards because Berkman's Saber bio says he felt he had more power from the right side and wanted to take advantage of the short left field in Minute

Made Park that was in the 2004 Home Run Derby. I couldn't find the 2004 article that his Saber bio cites, but I did find a Houston Chronicle article from 2003 where Berkman says, I actually have more raw power batting right. For a Home run derby competition, I'd probably bat right. And that worked out well for him when he did that in 2004. He finished second, replacing the injured Ken Griffey Jr. in that competition. I wonder, though, if he was just haunted by his last place finish in the 2002 derby when he batted lefty and hit one home run. To make matters more confusing, I found a 2004 ESPN article that says the switch hitter will reportedly bat right-handed

in this year's event, so he doesn't disturb his timing from the left side. So maybe that was a factor too. In the 2008 Derby at Yankee Stadium, Berkman went back to batting lefty and tied for third in that event. Although on the broadcast, Chris Berman said, he told me beforehand he didn't know during batting practice he was going to make a game-time decision.

He's a better pull-hitter righty, which helps him at his home park. However, in this park, he looked at left field and must have decided, just going up, I'm going lefty here. So he was definitely a better hitter in games from the left side. Not as clear whether he was a better derby hitter from the left side. In 2004, there was a right-handed pitcher throwing to him in the derby, so he actually elected to have the platoon disadvantage by batting righty. But maybe the platoon advantage or disadvantage doesn't matter against batting practice fastballs. You can support Effectively Wild on Patreon by going to patreon.com slash effectively wild.

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Hosted by Ben Lindberg and Meg Riley. I want to hear about Shohei Ohtani. Or Mike Trout with three arms.