Effectively Wild: A FanGraphs Baseball Podcast - Effectively Wild Episode 2073: Veeck As in Discotheque

Episode Date: October 17, 2023

Ben Lindbergh and Meg Rowley banter about the abrupt end of Kim Ng’s tenure as the general manager of the Miami Marlins, Alyssa Nakken interviewing for the Giants’ manager job, the Rangers taking a 2-0 lead on the Astros in the ALCS, and the new Netflix documentary The Saint of Second Chances. Then (48:12) Ben […]

Hello, and welcome to Episode 2073 of Effectively Wild, a baseball podcast from Fangraphs presented by our Patreon supporters. I am Ben Lindberg of The Ringer, joined by Meg Rowley of Fangraphs. Hello, Meg. Hello. We are recording during ALCS Game 2 in the closing moments, maybe, perhaps. Maybe. Maybe we can start elsewhere and perhaps we will have a final by the end of this intro. We shall see. But there has been some big off-the-field baseball news that was reported on Monday. So that might be a place where we could start. Kim Eng, no longer the Marlins GM. She is out. It was, well, it sounds like it was a contentious

situation. There have been a couple of pieces that have come out. Brittany Giroli wrote about it for The Athletic. Jeff Passan wrote about it for ESPN. And essentially, her deal was up. So she was not fired. And in fact, the Marlins exercised their end of a mutual option. And she did not, though it sounds like she had every reason not to based on some of this reporting. So the way that Brittany Giroli characterized it was

that this came as a result of numerous instances in which Aang felt like she was being stripped of her power and underappreciated. And one of those instances, one piece of evidence there was that the organization didn't offer her a new three-year deal following the conclusion of her initial three-year deal and the Marlins making the playoffs in 2023. So often when that happens, you will get sort of a re-up the same deal that you had before. I think Buster only reported that they offered her some sort of extension, but I guess it wasn't for the same length. I don't know what the details or the terms were. So that was one thing. Another thing is that she was, to quote this athletic piece, having trouble getting rid of some of Miami's holdovers from previous regimes.

And then the big thing is that apparently they wanted to put a po-bo over her. They wanted to hire a po-bo. Yeah. Are we going to make po-bo happen? I like po-bo. I like saying po-bo. So I'm going to say po-bo. Po-bo sounds like a value meal at burger king to me like i don't know

why like get your pobo um i don't know what about it feels like that it has sort of that ring to it yeah i like saying it i like seeing it so yeah i'm gonna go with pobo but but that that is an affront an insult right to to want to hire a po-po over someone who's been there for three years now. Yeah. You know, because like often, okay, so there's this title inflation that's going on in front offices where GM used to be the top. And now GM is often the second in command and you have a po-po, a president of baseball operations or sometimes they're known as something else, a chief baseball officer, whatever it is. And usually I would say the POBO was promoted from within, was the GM and was elevated to POBO.

Because often what happens is a team will come sniffing around some successful executive and we'll say, hey, can we interview that person? sniffing around some successful executive and we'll say, hey, can we interview that person? And the team will say no, because often, I guess it's, you know, the agreement among MLB teams is that generally they will give permission to have their executives, their personnel interviewed by another team if it is for not a lateral move, but a promotion. And so what happens is that you just kind of keep giving people promotions so that they don't get poached or so they're happy where they are. So if you're the po-bo, you can't go any higher than that currently, although I guess it's only a matter of time until we have the super po-bo,

something above the po-bo. Super po-bo, something above the po-po. Super po-po. Oh, boy. So usually it's, okay, someone wants to hire our GM, we'll promote them to po-po. And then they can't get poached by some other team and they'll be happy here for a while. Occasionally, I guess it might be something else, like Billy Epler with the Mets. Now, he recently resigned seemingly as a result of this MLB probe into improper use of the IL. But prior to that, it seemed like he was going to stay on under David Stearns. Now, he had been with the Mets for two years. And as I recall, Steve Cohen was pretty clear from the get-go that he was intending to hire a Popo at some point.

And so, Epler presumably knew this when he took the job. Plus, the Mets are coming off a spectacularly unsuccessful season. So, maybe that kind of reduces your leverage a little. And none of that was true for Kim Eng, who was coming off by Marlin standards, a successful season, had been there for three years, was the entrenched leader of that regime. So even putting aside the optics of installing someone, presumably a guy, above the first female GM in the sport after she's been there and has at least had some measure of success for the first few years. If you were in Kim Eng's position, if I were in Kim Eng's position and they said, yeah, we're, I mean, it's in effect a demotion, right? It's

hiring someone to be your boss when you were the boss, I probably would want to look for greener pastures, too. where we might get more clarity into, I know that Britt referenced, you know, the sort of enthusiasm that Bruce Sherman has for analytics, which sort of set it up as if Kim doesn't. So like, maybe there are particular dynamics within that front office that we will hear about. I know that Britt has previously reported on sort of the positive reception that Kim has gotten in terms of helping to mold a positive culture within the Marlins organization. You know, I don't think that her tenure with them was perfect. I think that as an organization, they tended to overpay and trade a little bit while she was there. But I think that has as much to do with the fact that they had an incredibly limited budget and they were trying to make the postseason and like, what else are you

going to do but overpay and trade if you're you know kind of up against it and that's your main mechanism of outside talent acquisition so when we look at her tenure i think like she helped to stabilize that organization she got them back to the postseason that you know maybe i think she paid a little too much for Robertson at the trade deadline is like hardly cause for demotion. So I find this to be pretty disappointing. I have to, you know, I don't know her. And so I don't want to speak to how something like this would wash over a person like emotionally, I imagine it would be very hard to walk away from a job that she has wanted seemingly for a very long time, just given

how much she has interviewed for GM positions over the years. I think knowing your worth and asserting it is both incredibly valuable and incredibly difficult, particularly when you want something really bad. And so I imagine that this was a hard call for her. But yeah, like it just doesn't, it doesn't seem like it's within sort of standard operating procedure within the industry to at least based on what we know of her performance that we can observe and what we have heard behind the scenes, particularly, I think, in the last year after she had gotten her feet under her and was, you know, kind of able to mold the team and direct it the way she wanted to. For ownership to put her in this position and sort of deviate from between senior leadership in that

baseball ops group and this ownership group right like this is this isn't quite what happened with jeter but like there it's not as if this is the first time that sherman has sort of disagreed with the head person in charge and there seems to have emerged an untenable position. So it's a bummer. I don't know. I just look forward to a time in the game where like departures like this don't feel as remarkable as they do, as important as they do. Like for us to go back to zero in terms of the number of women in GM positions feels pretty crummy. the number of women in GM positions feels pretty crummy. I hope that in the future that won't be true and it'll be, you know, like, I don't want to quite use this analogy. I want to acknowledge the limitations of this analogy because I think that Kim was good at her job and so I don't want to suggest that she was bad, but it was like, you know, when people didn't like the female-fronted Ghostbusters, you know, and like, I think, I didn't think it was very good. You know, it wasn't for me. I just like, I didn't think it was very good.

But it like had to mean something that that movie like didn't resonate with people because it was, it was women and they were Ghostbusters, Ben. And it's like, you know, I dream of a place, a time and a place in the game where it's like, you know, people are going to come and go. Sometimes a GM isn't going to mesh well with an owner. Sometimes an owner is going to be freaking weird and seemingly unable to get along with his GM. And that'll be interesting

because of what it means for the team and what it suggests about the owner rather than it having this broader import where, like I said, we're back to zero now. And that doesn't mean that Kim Ang is done in baseball. Like I imagine if she wants another act, she'll be able to get one. But for us to be in this moment where it's like, oh, well, it's just a bunch of dudes again is, you know, like that sucks. Yeah, I guess she might not be out of a position like that for long.

There are some openings out there. People have said, hey, it seems like a lot of people are turning down the offer to interview for that Red Sox job. Well, I guess that's open. But yeah, but to that end, it's like Boston is another place where ownership has sort of cycled through folks in that senior spot so it's like is that a particularly stable position and then like what are you signing up for like you if you're her like you just did part of a rebuild are you really and you know a lot of the a lot of the open GM positions are going to come with teams that have rebuild. So like if she wants another job, maybe that's just like part and parcel with it,

but like, it's not ideal. Right. The fact that a lot of people have passed is like, well, is this really what we can do? And then it's like, she could potentially go to New York,

but then they have a Pobo. There's a Pobo. Yes, exactly. Pobo. Yeah. I really am enjoying saying Pobo. I think part of it is that there's a,

a receiver on the Seahawks now whose last name is bobo and boy you just want that guy to get the ball every time i mean not every time because like candidly ben they have better receivers than him but he's like not bad and you know it's fun to say bobo so anyway i don't know i'm trying to keep it light because i am i am pretty bummed that this is the direction that i want it's like of all the of all the times you really want to deviate from like what the industry typically does like this is the time like get it together dude i don't know it's like my expectation is not and again i want to i want to be sure that i'm prefacing what i'm about to say by saying i'm not trying to suggest that she did a bad job but like it's not like if you hire a member of a

historically underrepresented demographic pick one it doesn't just have to be a woman it doesn't have to be an asian american woman but like you know the expectation is not that you get to hold that job in perpetuity just to satisfy the very reasonable desire to see greater diversity in the executive ranks. But like when that person is meeting and at the very least meeting expectations and is taking your club that like doesn't go to the postseason very often to the postseason. It's like you didn't have some sense of the the weight of the decision you made when you hired her. Like, come on, dude. I mean, I guess the devil's advocate position would be, yeah, they made it back to the playoffs, but they were just about the worst playoff team ever. Sure.

Totally. I mean, you know, they were outscored by 57 runs, which was the worst run differential ever for a playoff team. They went 33 and 14 in one run games. So if they had played up to their Pythagorean record or whatever, it would have been some progress from her first two years of 60-something wins. And obviously she didn't inherit a great team. And of course, Bruce Sherman not spending a ton, still not spending a ton. And that was reportedly why Jeter left. Who knows what was going on there?

But supposedly he got frustrated. That was at least part of it, right? Yeah, right. And that continues to be the case. So it's not like the Marlins are necessarily set up to be a powerhouse or something. I would give her an incomplete grade because I'd give probably most GMs an incomplete after three years. I mean, a lot of GMs will be like, you know, they love having a five-year plan or a seven-year plan, gives them great job security,

but there is some truth to it that it takes a while to turn around an organization, especially one like the Marlins, and especially if there's not a huge payroll. So I don't think you can necessarily look and say, oh, yeah, the foundation is there. And whoever succeeds Kim Ang here is just going to reap the rewards. That's one possible outcome. But, you know, you look at like their farm system, I think, is like 26th right now, according to fan graphs. And again, they just sort of squeaked into the playoffs. Alcantara just had Tommy John surgery.

Right. Like they're not, you know, totally set up. So I don't know that I would look at this and say, like, yes, you know, it's such a success that how could you even contemplate making a change? But I don't think it would be any, like, urgency to make a change or like, you know, it's hard to say from afar. Obviously, we don't know what's going on. But based on just the results purely, I wouldn't say clearly like this is going south or this is a disaster. Like, we need to hire someone else. I'd say let's give it a little more time. Like, there have been some very successful moves.

I think a lot of the free agent signings under her tenure have not gone so great. I think those deadline additions, Josh Bell at least, Jake Berger, those went very well and helped propel the Marlins into the playoffs. At the time those moves were made, I think the consensus is, well, they gave up a lot to get those guys, but they had the intended effect, right? So it's kind of a mixed bag. I guess the Jorge Soler addition worked out really well. You can find bright spots there. And obviously, yeah, I mean, Arise out but pablo lopez was also really

excellent i guess you could i guess you could say the marlins maybe needed a rise even more than they needed lopez potentially but yeah it's i don't know it's it's not like the the greatest three years i've ever seen a gm start with, you know, if you make the playoffs and you're the Marlins and you haven't made the playoffs in any full season in 20 years at that point, at least some things seem to be heading in the right direction. I could see why you might want to sign up for a couple more years, a few more years, and not just sort of a lame duck season. Can I interrupt with breaking news? Game over.

Game over. The Houston Astros are now down 0-2 in the series. Yes, they are. Despite Jordan Alvarez hitting several baseballs through another state, like just to a whole different state. But, yeah, I think you're right. Like it's not an unqualified like, wow, they went to the Series. And did you know that they have the best farm system in baseball? And like every, you know, like, totally, completely true, you know. you know, most owners would view a GM in this moment. Like they would look at it and say,

yeah, like, I mean, I don't know how self-aware owners tend to be. So I'm sure that most of them would not say, look, I've given you very little to work with. And we managed to go to the postseason, even though this roster has obvious flaws. You've done great, given what a cheapskate I am. Yeah, given just like, man, I am so miserly. I am hiding my gold. I am putting... I'm sabotaging you at every turn. Right. And you've managed to make us somewhat respectable.

Well done. I'm sure that that is not the way that most owners think of themselves. But, you know, they might say, hey, given the resources of this team which they would put out or remove from themselves in a way that is completely wild you know we've we've managed to to do some stuff here and i you know want to see where we can go with it um i mean clearly they didn't think that she had done a bad enough job to fire her so you know like and and maybe there's some strategy there maybe he was keen to move on and he knew that she would say i'm not working for a pobo it's a dumb acronym sounds like a value meal and so i'm out of here and he

did that knowing that um he made the decision he did knowing that, you know, she would kind of give him an out. But I find it disappointing nonetheless. So, you know, that's where that's where we're at. Melissa Nacken interviewed for the Giants manager job, which doesn't guarantee anything. They've interviewed multiple internal candidates. And also Stephen Vogt. Right. Yeah. Stephen Vogt, the legend. But Nacken is, I think, the first woman known to officially interview for that job. So that's something.

Yep. For that job. So that's something. Yep. Again, I just look forward to a day when it is unremarkable, you know, and we're not there yet. So it is remarkable. It is worth remarking upon. But it will be very cool when we're not counting in single digits, you know, because, and this is a, this is a broader statement,

not about either of these two women in particular, but like the fact of the matter is that like, sometimes managers don't work out. Sometimes GMs don't work out. Sometimes people you think are going to be really great end up being, you know, mediocre or lousy or a bad fit. They can't inspire people. They can't lead. They can't build the infrastructure they need, whatever, right? Like people are going to fail because being a GM, being a POBA, being a manager is incredibly hard. Like it is hard work. It is dependent on the hard work and performance of a lot of other people who aren't you. And you have to, you both get to and have to bear the responsibility of their performance and sometimes you know people come in and they don't do what's necessary to advance a team's objectives and they get fired and you know to take it back to the lady ghostbusters

like what a world it will be when a female fronted film can just fail and we won't remark upon it, you know? What a world it'll be when the first woman to, you know, be the general manager of an organization gets to stand there with her team and the commissioner and lift a World Series trophy. It'll be really cool. But the one that'll be really, really cool will be like the 20th one where we're not writing the story about how she's the first X. She's the first, you know, like, and I don't say that to diminish the magnitude of the steps that we're taking because they're critical to getting to that point. And the work that a lot of different kinds of folks do around the game is like really cool and is instrumental to the teams that point. And the work that a lot of different kinds of folks do around the game is like really cool and is instrumental to the teams that we like

winning baseball games. But I just, I look forward to not being so notable. It's like when I, it's like I've taken to kind of telling conference organizers when they ask, like, I'm like, I don't want to do the women in baseball panel anymore. Like, I appreciate the necessity of this. I understand why, particularly for women and non-binary folks who are trying to get into the game, having someone who isn't a dude talk about the experience of being in the industry is valuable.

Although, you know, in terms of team stuff, like, what the hell do I know about that? But, you know, it's like, I don't want to do that anymore. Just let me talk about baseball. I'm tired of doing the, you know, they're important and i get it and there should be a networking session but like the best way to showcase this to showcase any demo that hasn't been up there before is just to put them on the stage and let them talk about ball so yeah there you go yeah there does seem something especially demoralizing about hiring someone above her in that team. It's one thing to, you know, if she had been very unsuccessful and we say, well, you're making a change.

I mean, OK, it's a competitive industry and there are only, well, I was going to say there are only 30 of these jobs, except who knows how many there are really now. How many there are. There are so many. Because there could be more or there could be fewer depending on the title. because there could be more there could be fewer depending on the title but but yeah like you know if if things go south okay that's the way that these things go but to wait in line for decades and decades and to have assistant gm jobs and work for the league and all the rest and to be over qualified for a first gm job and then to do an okay job at least and then have them say like it's like you know you break the glass ceiling or something and then it's like oh there's another ceiling even higher up there suddenly that we just installed above your head somehow even though you were doing just

fine seemingly so yeah there's something about that that's just like extra insulting or, you know, it's just, yeah. So, we'll see. It definitely rankles in a different way. You know, there's always more that ends up coming out as, you know, time goes on. And, you know, as they get into the search, we might hear more. So, like, who knows? We might hear more here. But on first blush, it's not the best. Not super stoked on it, Ben.

Yeah. She put it very diplomatically to Tyler Kepner. She said in her discussions with Bruce Sherman about the baseball operations department, it became apparent that we were not completely aligned on what that should look like. And I felt it best to step away. So yeah, there's a lot of subtext there probably, but yes. She's a pro. So, and you know, I would imagine that if you are, I would imagine that if you are, sounded like Bob Martinez there for a second, I would imagine that particularly if you have aspirations to work for another team or perhaps return to the league office, like, you know, you want to put yourself in a position where you don't say anything that gives people an excuse to limit your opportunities. And that wouldn't be fair, but it is, I think, a reality that people in those roles have to navigate where even if you're in the group text with your friends saying, I'm going to do a swear, this is horseshit. I don't know if she swears. Again, I don't know her. But you put forward a professional, stoic face and live to fight another day.

Because the only people who get to pop off are owners, apparently. Yeah. Well, the Astros live to fight another day, but they are down two games to none. So we're recording just before the start of NLCS game one. So we have no NLCS updates for you, but we do have some ALCS updates. And it's that things are not going great for Houston. They're going great for Texas, but not Houston specifically. So we did a Patreon live stream during game one.

We did. And a few of our listeners know our thoughts and experience that in real time with us. It was a two hour and 49 minute game that felt faster. It just seemed to be zipping along. Yeah, it was a great game. Yeah, two nothing in the end. And again, a continuation of the low offense postseason and especially the losing team sometimes barely getting on the board or not at all and it was just another Jordan Montgomery

game you have to specify now when you say the Montgomery game you got to specify which of his huge starts for the Rangers you're talking about and Justin Verlander was decent he was economical he was getting through those early innings without any whiffs or any Ks. He got a few strikeouts and whiffs at the very end of his outing, but he was getting away with a few and just getting by with not his best

stuff, but good enough to win as they say, except that to win when the pitcher allows two runs, you gotta score at least three. And the Astros did not score any as it happens. So this was just another example of Montgomery being great. And also the Rangers bullpen in that game being better than advertised, which is not saying that much because they were advertised as a really terrible bullpen, but they did their job.

They did not allow any runs. And then in game two, it was even closer. Not a two-run game, but a one-run game. And this time the Rangers held on. And again, and, you know, it was surprising to see Jordan strike out, what, three times, right, in the Montgomery game. And then we found out before game two that he was under the weather. Yeah. He had some sort of virus, upset stomach, headache.

And we were initially planning to record before that game. And so I was going to say something about Jordan's flu game. I swear I was. I'm sure many people probably said that. And, yeah, he had his flu game. He hit two home runs. But that was not quite enough. Just not quite enough. Not quite enough. Nathan Evaldi was good. Yeah. I guess he's just back to full strength again, I guess. He was just, I don't know, he was just sandbagging in September. He just made us think he was bad and hurt and then suddenly flipped the switch.

Playoff, Valdi is back and he's great again. He is great again. The Rangers were incredibly aggressive against Fran Bervaldez in the first inning of the game. You know, they really put it to them. They were swinging and singling on first pitches. And I was just like, last night on the live stream, I was like, you know who's really aggressive on first pitch? Marcus Simeon and Corey Seager.

And they were like, Meg, you're a brain genius. Because they took, you know, first pitch, singled back-to-back. And then, you know, they put pressure on those guys. They came out of the first inning up 4-0. And the Astros tried to, but they couldn't. They couldn't do it. Even though we started to get a glimpse of the Rangers' bullpen meltdown. Chapman is just, I, look, I know that there aren't a lot of great options out there and that Bochy has to navigate not only the remainder of this series, but what he hopes will be a world series after.

But like, what, what kind of leverage situation are you comfortable putting Chapman in at this point? Like, he's not, I don't know if he's unplayable, but it's pretty, you know, it's not good, Ben. It's pretty bad. Yeah. So, and, you know, you don't have to be pretty bad to give up a home run to Jordan Alvarez. That tends to happen. He's good for a couple of those, sometimes a game. But it sure doesn't help, you know, i worry for jose leclerc's arm

my fall clean off um but because he's been he's been sparkling this entire postseason but at some point you figure the man will get tired he you know was not alone in his effort today like spores was good and relief of avaldi when he first came out but yeah it's like um when you know when you have to bring wood clerk in in the eighth because chapman just can't finish the inning like that seems that seems not good you know yeah the the leash is not long yeah there's not a lot of trust there right now and i can understand why i. I mean, he's not closing, but even as a setup guy, it's like, we'll let him try. And then it's the first sign of trouble. We're going to go to Leclerc, who looked a little bit shaky himself, but he got the job done. And I guess there was a little more

urgency on Dusty Baker's part part because what seemed like it could be a pivotal moment potentially and one that we were somewhat astounded by, but not really in the first game was when the Astros had the bases loaded in what was it, the fourth, and Martin Maldonado was up and we were calling for a pinch hitter.

I mean, we weren't shocked because it's pretty clear that Dusty just is going to stick with Maldonado. Come hell or come high water, come outs, come other outs. But that, you know, didn't work out. And then in game two, though, in game one, he ended up pinch hitting with Diaz. Though in game one, he ended up pinch hitting with Diaz. But later in the game with two outs and nobody on. Right. Which we wondered, we speculated.

I don't know if Verlander addressed this, but we thought, well, maybe his hands are tied. Maybe Verlander really just wants to pitch to Maldonado. Maybe it's sort of a personal catcher situation with him. Yeah. Sometimes, though, managers are hesitant to pinch hit early in the game, even if the highest leverage, most important moment comes early in the game. So I don't know which that was.

But then in game two, Dusty did pinch hit earlier with Diaz, right? It was in the fifth with the bases loaded and no outs. And it didn't work. I mean, you know, Maldonado made it out in game one. In game two, Diaz struck out swinging, and then Altuve struck out swinging, and then Bregman grounded out,

and the Rangers got out of that. Yeah. So, again, with all these manager moves, we're not saying that if they had made the other one that everything would have worked out wonderfully for them because you make the right move and it works out wrong, or you make the wrong move and it works out right. You never know. But you're just playing the percentages there. And of course, you could say, well, with the pinch hit penalty and all, you'd be better off just putting Diaz in there from the beginning of the game. But look,

putting Diaz in there from the beginning of the game. But look, Dusty seems convinced that there's something that has to be currently unquantified about Maldonado, at least publicly, that is making him worth start over someone who is far superior offensively this season and seemingly not way worse defensively. So not that Diaz is great back there, but Maldonado seems to have slipped. So yeah. Yep. Yep. Yep. Yep. Yep. Yeah. On our live stream, I was, I was saying, I was expressing some frustration at people who say like, you can't quantify X. And that often seems to reveal a mindset of, you know, kind of an anti-data kind of stance, just because if I were saying that, I would say, well, we haven't quantified or you can't currently quantify, right? Whereas I have a lot of faith that almost anything could be theoretically quantified.

Some things are perhaps out of the realm of quantification, but we would have said that about a lot of things in the past that have since been quantified. Some things are perhaps out of the realm of quantification, but we would have said that about a lot of things in the past that have since been quantified. So I would always reserve judgment on whether it can or can't be. But I think we could say it isn't currently. If there's something Maldonado is doing to settle down pitchers or whatever it is, it's just it's not currently being quantified by the public sphere. And even if we can't put a number on it, there must be some like Diaz with the pinch hit penalty might not be that better. But he only had the pinch hit penalty because he wasn't starting the game. So the Rangers bottom of the lineup has been great meanwhile. So they get the homer out of Leone Tavares.

There's just, you know, no weak spots in that lineup. And even the relative weak spots have produced pretty well. And we keep getting Evan Carter, defensive highlights. It's just, they're just firing on all cylinders right now. Like, even the bullpen is doing decently. The starting rotation, all the aspects that we kind of worried about the weaknesses of the Rangers have not been weaknesses. And the strength has been a strength. So, you know, the Astros are far from out of this series.

But for the Rangers to take two in Houston also, that's big, obviously. I have two thoughts. The first of which is, you know, the weaknesses haven't even been a weakness, including the bullpen. Terms and conditions may apply. But so there's that piece of it. I have a question for you. So, like, clearly the crowd that we saw in Houston, mostly Astros fans, and I'm sure the crowd that we will see in Arlington will be mostly Rangers fans. But like, is there a slight discount on home field advantage when it's an interstate matchup like this? Hmm.

Hmm. Maybe. Maybe. It comes down to the eternal question of what causes home field advantage. If it's travel, if it's jet lagged, if it's

maybe something like that, then yes, I guess. If it's more about the fan support, but then even then if there's less of a breakdown in terms of one team, I guess. But if it's more about the fan support, but then even then if there's less of a breakdown in terms of one team, I guess. But if it's more about like familiarity with the ballpark or you sleep in your own bed at night or something, I guess the Rangers still have to stay at a hotel unless they're commuting intrastate. You know, is it the umpire responding to the crowd and giving slightly more favorable calls to the home team? This is an eternal debate that has come up before.

But I don't know if there's enough of a sample to say, but maybe someone should look back at all the like intrastate or even the same city matchups. I guess you're not going to get enough subway series to tell. But yeah, the ones where you don't have to travel much and isolate those and see what the home field advantage looks like yeah i guess we're gonna find out well we'll know more about that and we'll know more about this uh game that's about to start oh my god corbin carol's got a little ponytail you're doing a little ponytail now corbin i wonder if he's doing a little ponytail that's cute yeah okay the n Okay. The NL Rookie of the Year. I need to worry about that.

He's so wee. Anyway, the Astros-Ragers series was fairly evenly matched when it started, but now there's a clear favorite. So we will see how that shakes out, and we'll talk more NLCS next time. Before we move on, can I give a brief update? Because the Zips Game by Game Od odds have updated as we were talking. So speedy. Yeah, Dan's on it. You know, that Dan, he's good.

The Rangers are now favored to win this series 79.2%, 20.8%. So, you know, it's not going great for Houston. But, again, it's a long series, so anything can happen. I mean, you know, there are only two things that could actually happen, like in terms of outcomes. But, like, either of those things could happen. Yeah, yeah. Framber, by the way, what's wrong with Framber?

I don't know, man, but I don't know. His final start of the regular season against Seattle, which was a game that Houston ended up winning, if I recall correctly, despite him. He seems very flappable right now. He seems easily flapped. And, like, again, you talk about stuff that's hard to quantify, that we can't yet quantify in terms of its value.

But, like, he doesn't seem comfortable up there. And he seems flappable, Ben, like flapped. That's a, what a weird word, you know, inflappable. Like, is it about flags? What is that word about? What does it mean? You know? I'll try to look up some etymology

while we're speaking here. But the only other playoff related point is another thing that came up on our live stream, which is that I'm pro-UmpCam and you're anti-UmpCam. Although I guess not like against the concept, but against the execution of it. It just makes me feel kind of queasy. But I do appreciate that it, I think, really drives home just how incredible it is that anyone ever gets a hit at all. Because boy, do those pitches come in fast and often bendy. Yeah, I like it. It's a shaky cam. It's like a GoPro style thing. It's on an umpire's helmet, and he's got his head on a swivel. So if we could do some stabilization of that image,

do some fix it in post, then maybe it would be more watchable for you. But it's not a brand new thing, but we've seen it tested and tried and showed off sometimes years ago and now it's back. I like it because, yeah, it does really reinforce just how hard those pitches come in. You know, they throw really fast in the big leagues. You just do not have a lot of time to react. And so any notions you may have about your ability to hit a baseball, which I think most people listening to this podcast, you know, probably are under not many illusions. But any illusions you might be under, yeah, your illusions, but any illusions you might be under. Yeah.

Your illusions, your notions, you will be disabused of them when you watch the Empire Cam. And it's like you blink and the ball's already passed it. So, all right. So, we have a guest for most of the rest of this episode. Sadly, you were not able to join me for this interview because of inopportune timing of roofer arrival. Oh, man. Yeah. Look, sometimes I feel very behind not owning a home, Ben.

And some days I'm like, really nice to have a landlord that's taking care of this annoying business. Today was one of those days. Yeah. But they did not arrive at the scheduled time. They did not arrive at the scheduled time. They did not. And so that overlapped, coincided with the interview, and it turns out having roofers while you record a podcast, not ideal. Not ideal. Yeah. So I did that solo, but you did the homework.

You prepped for the interview. I did. interview is with Mike Vec, a baseball legend of sorts, son of, of course, the Hall of Famer Bill Vec, former owner of multiple teams, who's sort of a baseball hero of mine and has come up many times. And Mike Vec is, you know, kind of cast in a similar mold. He is an operator of many a minor league team and independent league team who has been known for very Vecchian promotions and stunts. And, you know, we have him to thank for, say, the ball dog, the institution of the ball dog, the bat dog, the ball pig. That was his work as well. Many other promotions he has tried over his decades in the game. He worked for his dad with the White Sox in the 70s

and was the author of Disco Demolition Night, which was not his finest hour, as he acknowledges in the interview and also in the documentary. So after that, he was out of baseball for years, worked his way back in through the independent leagues, most famously the St. Paul Saints, but he's with a lot of minor league teams over the years and indie ball teams, the Miami Miracle and the Charleston Riverdogs and the Broxton Rocks and the Hudson Valley Renegades and the Butte Copper Kings and the Sioux Falls Canaries. He's done it all. He's

been everywhere and we wanted to talk to him. Well, I would have wanted to talk to him for no reason. He's a McVeck. But also because he is the subject of a new Netflix documentary called The Saint of Second Chances, which came out just recently. And we watched it. So what'd you think? I really enjoyed it. It did a nice job of balancing the realities of why he would feel like he the game and how personal it is for him and how, you know, entrenched it is and was in his family, not only in terms of his relationship with his father, but his relationship with his own children. And, you know, I think it did a really nice job of presenting, like, struggle as complicated. It does not sound from the documentary meant for, certainly didn't mean for Disco Demolition Night to go the way that it did on, you know, people of color, on the queer community, which were, you know, who were at sort of the genesis of disco. And that music is precious in a way that I think got lost once it

became mainstream. He didn't mean for there to be any harm there, but like, was willing to acknowledge that harm was done, you know, and that it felt alienating and kind of violent and awful to vulnerable communities. So I appreciated the acknowledgement of that in a way that didn't feel kind of qualified. And, you know, I think that like there is a showman in him, obviously, right? There's definitely a showman that's sort of a streak of that that runs in the family. right and there's definitely a showman that's sort of a streak of that that runs in the family but i i don't know like it didn't feel cynical you know i think that doing stuff that's different can be kind of you know can hit in different ways it can kind of wash over you differently and this felt like it really was about like having fun and having

a place where like people could come and enjoy themselves, even if it was a little goofy and it was non-traditional. And, you know, I think he took providing an opportunity for redemption for others seriously in a way that also wasn't exploitative or gimmicky you know and like i think that's a a really lovely instinct and impulse um and one that seems to be born of really genuine empathy for from him so i was glad to have um had a chance to like watch it and kind of get to know that chapter of the family's story because like you know you know we know so much about his dad and i think the only impression i had of him was that he was one of the authors of disco demolition night and that was kind of that was candidly really all i knew i mean i knew he had been an indie ball operator and

i had minor league stuff but i didn't really know very much about him so uh yeah i i enjoyed it yeah me too and there's some other star power associated with it it's uh it's narrated by jeff daniels and he should narrate so many more things yeah he should narrate most things he's great yeah we should i should record my parts for this podcast and then hire Jeff Daniels to just say them after we record. And Charlie Day plays Mike Vick, the younger Mike Vick. There are sort of these recreation scenes of the younger Mike Vick that Charlie Day is Mike Vick. And it's directed by people who've worked on some big documentaries in the past, you know, like produced 20 Feet from Stardom and Won't You Be My Neighbor and Marwen Call and all these things. So check it out. It's a 90-ish documentary and it's uplifting at times and sad at some other times, but it gives you a good picture of a baseball

character and a baseball lifer. So I'll be back in just a moment with Mike Vec. We will talk about growing up Vec and his dad and the origins of modern independent baseball and when Daryl Strawberry played for him and Disco Demolition Night, and the Savannah Bananas, and much, much more. The only thing is, I didn't dream that I would create, once again, a monster, like Dr. Frankenstein, that would try and usurp the ballgame. Because, you see, with all the instant replays and all these things, people forget to watch the game because they know we can see that. Where do you activate the fireworks when somebody hits a home run?

Well, the switch is just up on the wall over my right shoulder. When we're sure the home run is hit, we'll flip the switch and automatically it'll fire the fireworks. All right. I am joined now by the man, the myth, the legend, the baseball maverick,

the impresario, Mike Vecch, who is the star of The Saint of Second Chances, the new Netflix documentary. I don't know if he's the saint himself or he's the one who received the second chances, but we're happy to have him on this podcast. Hello, Mike. How are you? And of course, you know for certain, Ben, that I ain't

the saint. So that means I must have been the recipient of all of those second chances. God, of all of those second chances. God, I've lost count and I'm old. Yeah, it's more than second, I guess. It's third and fourth and fifth and sixth. But I think my main question, my first question after watching this movie and of course, knowing about your dad and the history of the Vex,

is there a boring branch of the Vex family when you get together at holidays? Is there sort of, you know, staid, just kind of quiet, not characters at all? Are there Vex like that out there? I don't think so. I don't think so. We had only one rule during any holiday, and that was we left the swords at the door, which worked really well. So we ultimately, you know, loved one another, but like any big rollicking family, you know, that could devolve. But, but when we were all kinds of adults, we made an agreement that we'd leave any disagreements outside and, um, just love one another inside. And it worked really well after a few fistfights and after a few, you know, marred holidays,

we realized that that probably was the smart way to do it. When you raise opinionated people the way my mother and father did, you know, you're bound to have some disagreements. Yeah, yeah. Maybe there's a distant branch, like some cousins you rarely see because they don't really fit in with the VEC aesthetic. I don't know. There are lots of those that I rarely see, but that's not really my choice.

Right. Yeah. They stopped giving you chances at some point, I guess. That's right. Or they get the invitations after the fact. Right. Yeah. Is it nature or nurture? Because we're all products of our environment, right? And you are your father's son. I mean, we are all influenced by the people who raised us or the people we were around. And so if you had grown up with a different parent or parents or in a different household, do you think you would be much different or is it just it's in the genes somewhere? I think it's a combination, but I think it's more nurturing. I really do. I think that we all arrive, you know, as these little packages or as Loudon Wainwright III said, dilated to meet you. You know, we pop out and here we are. But I think there's a certain point where the people that you hang around with influence you.

The thing that made me so spectacularly convinced that Morgan Neville and Jeff Malmberg and the folks from Tremelo were the right people, was the way they nurtured this film. It reminded me of the way, you know, you want to be as a parent. And of course, you never can be as a child because you're finding your own way. But I think that nurturing is really underrated. is really underrated. And I think of people who, you know, live in New York City and have never seen Pikes Peak or been to the Grand Canyon, you know, and that's not maturing. That's a lack of nurturing of some sort. So, you know. Yeah, I can identify. I'm a New Yorker, Some sort. So, you know. Yeah, I can identify. I'm a New Yorker, but I have been to the Grand Canyon. So there's that. Yes.

So what made you decide that you wanted to be the subject of a documentary now? You've had this cinematic life with a lot of rises and falls. But what made this the moment to tell your story? Well, you're familiar with the fellow who convinced me. You know, I know you've had conversations off and on with my son, Nitrane, and he was the one that convinced me that we should do this. And his approach was totally different. You know, he said, I love being fourth generation back. That's exactly what he said. I love being a fourth generation back. That's exactly what he said. I love being a fourth generation back. And I kind of looked at him and, you know, I know it's been difficult for him on many levels to be to be my son. And God knows it was difficult to be, you know, my father's son. But it was also difficult for my father.

My father so much so as William Lewis Beck's son that he changed his name legally to Bill. But it was Nitrane who said, don't look at this like, you know, the discomfiture that you might have felt when you were first starting or the same that I felt. But look at this as a hundred plus years of people making their living in this wonderful arena with this wonderful game. Look at it that way. And I was blown away. And I looked at him and I thought, you know, what a great, what a great perspective that I had almost lost my entire life because I just was, you know, oh, it's so tough being his kid, you know, blah, blah, blah. And Nitrane changed that conversation. Yeah, it's in your blood. I'm sure it's hard to get out from the shadow of your dad in whatever

industry that is, if your parent was accomplished in some way, especially if you go into the same line of work. I mean, was there a time when you were running as far away from that as you possibly could? Oh, yeah. I got out of college on Tuesday, left Loyola, joined a rock and roll band, and we were the house band in a beach town in Maryland or Delaware, you know, in five days. And the only one who thought that was very cool was my dad. You know, I spent three years on the road, learned an awful lot. And then because I got out of college in three years, I got a year off to drive around the country. So those four years driving around the country and playing in a rock and roll band really gave me a tremendous

bedrock for whatever career. You know, you learn to talk, you learn to deal with different people, you learn to deal with frustration, and you learn to deal with the road and failure because, you know, every other week you get fired because you're not good enough or you're not generating enough income so i i spent a lot of years on the run and then suddenly we had my dad and i had lunch was a you know which was really a silly way of saying let's go drink some beer and and we we sat around for 10 or 11 hours and he said to me at the end of this, he said, why don't, why don't, um, you come to Chicago? I'm going to buy the white socks and I would love to have you work with me. And I was like, pardon me, are you looking over your shoulder? I mean, this is, this was, we were really, I mean, estranged then in every sense of the word. And I was, but I was secretly.

than in every sense of the word. And I was, but I was secretly so, I was intrigued. I was flattered. I was intrigued. I was frightened. But he was such a magic man to me that I thought, you know, I'm going to do this. And so, of course, arrogantly, I told him,

I'll do it for two years. Well, I stayed six and a half. And I never had more fun in my life. I just never expected it to be the way it turned out to be. But it was really a wonderful education. And of course, I got the bug. And you want to come work for me? I wouldn't mind having that conversation. But I could see why it was a little intimidating. But as you describe in the movie, it gave you a chance to work alongside your dad and get to know your dad in a different way.

And, man, you talk about a great education. You look at the people who were involved with the team at that time, not just your dad, but people coming up like Dave Dombrowski, like Tony La Russa, right? not just your dad, but people coming up like Dave Dombrowski, like Tony La Russa, right? Like Paul Richards, who came back to manage a season in 76, right? Just an incredibly smart baseball guy and kind of a maverick himself. So what an education being around that milieu. Yeah, it was a privilege. And there wasn't great privilege, which was also a really good thing. And there wasn't great privilege, which was also a really good thing. You know, I mean, I used to look at the Kennedys with great admiration, but think to myself, gosh, how do they live not only under that shadow, but the money? And I've come to the realization that the reason that you could be a VAC and not be squashed was because there was never any money. I mean, you know, you make a lot of money one day, and then the next day you blow it on another club or a bad club.

But the whole beauty of it, of the cyclic nature of it, was you were funding a pursuit that you loved madly. So I think it was a lot easier for the at least three generations of Vex because there never was any money. But there was this great, like the Kennedy White House, you know, when you hang around with McNamara and Sorensen and all of these intellectual giants, you know, mom and dad hung around with writers and members of the media, people who were real Renaissance people. So you got lots of different perspectives, Bob Fischel, you know, just these wonderful characters who were Damon Runyon-esque and yet had this wonderful

other side. So the education was amazing. I mean, Larry Doby, Satchel Paige, two real giants in terms of changing the way the world operated in race relations were just always hanging around the house. And you just kind of thought, you know, the Doby kids were like, they were just, they were just vexed sure yeah and there was no you know there was there was never any hey here come the dobie kids you know we just we we all grew up together and i see that now it's what a tremendous advantage and how wise my mother and father were yeah and and i'm more interested in in asking you about other aspects of your career in the film than Disco Demolition, just because it has been covered so much.

But, you know, because I guess it was the nadir of your career to that point, it was the thing that you needed a second chance because of. Obviously, it was clear immediately that things hadn't gone the way that you'd planned, aside from the fact that you did sell a lot of tickets, which was the goal. But when did it become clear that there was this sort of darker undertone to that event? As the documentary mentions, you know, in retrospect, I think especially, it's clear that, oh gosh, there were sort of racist and homophobic sentiments going on here with the way that people responded and just the atmosphere in the park that day. Was that apparent in the moment, or is that something that you came to appreciate over time?

No, I mean, because I had the idea, I can speak to its purity. I look at it now through the lens, and that was once again the influence of my son, who said, look at this now. Would you do it now? No, of course I wouldn't do it now. Well, why wouldn't you do it now? the first gays and the first women to pitch in an all-male professional league and blind announcers and not have a code, a code of behavior, a code of ethics. I hesitate to say that, but it never occurred to me it was a Bob Seger night, for God's sake. We were just celebrating rock and roll. And over the years, it's changed. And the idea that it's hurt people, as I say in the film, you know, that was the last thing I wanted to do. This was just to put butts in seats.

And so I understand. And, you know, that's the way it should be. We portrayed it how it seemed to me. And I apologized, which is the first time I have apologized because I never really thought about it. But, you know, it's going to have to be, you know, history to judge it. It's be a little maniacal for me to go, well, this event was so catastrophic. It was what it was, and it was a mistake by today's standards, and by those standards, I don't think there were sentiments. I certainly didn't create it,

and I don't think Dahl was smart enough to think it. So that kind of covers all of it. So after that, and after your dad is forced to sell the team, you're out of baseball for years, you're looking for a way back in, you're writing to anyone and everyone, take me back, you want that second chance. Eventually it comes and it comes in IndieBall. And I want to talk about the beginning of IndieBall because independent baseball is the institution we know today, started 30 years ago with the Northern and Frontier Leagues in 1993. And back then there were doubts about whether this was viable, whether there was an appetite for this just anywhere, but particularly

where you were in the shadow of the twins, right? So what were the skeptics saying at that time, and why did you think or hope that they were wrong? Well, I hope they were wrong. I'll cover the second half first because I put every nickel I had and some I didn't have in it. And so I didn't have the luxury of it failing. And like any crusade, you know, if you start to think about what could happen, you'd never get off the snide. whom I worked at the White Sox, who turned me down, didn't want to invest. I had people that I was very friendly with and who I admired a great deal, said, you're crazy for doing this. I never got anybody to say that we could do more than $2,000 a game if we were lucky. And so I went into this with a great fear and trepidation. The best baseball writers in the upper Midwest, Sid Hartman and Patrick Royce, delighted in saying, 45 days, he'll lose all his money, he'll be out of business.

But Andy McPhail actually helped me because the more he ripped, the more people bought tickets. So I was appreciative, you know. And it was, you know, if I, this is the part that people, you, because historically you have documented it, you'll understand. But most people, when they heard Fun is Good, they're like, what is this about? And I had partners who said, hey, we should be talking about baseball. Well, really, the Twins won two World Series within four years, six years of our opening at Midway. We should talk about baseball. If you want to see the best baseball, then you should go to the Metrogliff.

But if you want to have fun and you want to have affordable fun and you want a family to be able to come out and have a lot of laughs, family to be able to come out and have a lot of laughs. It's a family operation for your family run by a family who have no other means of income. So that's what I believe made it successful. I think people knew that it would people just like them run in the ballpark for them. Yeah. And you mentioned in the movie, there's a little interlude about when Daryl Strawberry came to play for the States after you had established the team as a successful franchise. And he was in need of a second chance or a third or a fourth at that point, which you were reluctant at first to extend to him until your wife said, hey, you got a chance. Why don't you give a chance to someone else? And of course, he did incredibly well there. Right. And, you know, you talk about the best baseball being at the higher levels. And so if that's what you're most interested in, that's where you're going to go. But when you get Darryl Strawberry past his prime, you know, he's 34, but still above average big league hitter at that point, unleashed on the Northern League. And in his 132 plate appearances, he hit 435, 538, 1000 with 18 home runs.

That's something I actually value about IndieBall is that sometimes you see guys who are just so good, just too good for the level. You know, you kind of you get a glimpse of just how great the big leaguers are because they're playing against professional players who themselves are extraordinarily talented. And yet they're a few rungs down the ladder, and it makes all the difference in the world. So what was it like to watch him just run roughshod over the league that year? Well, it was a natural progression, because the first year in 93, we had whole Durham. And people don't realize that on the 93 Saints, the first year, five players, five players from the lowly independent Saints went to the big leagues.

It's an astounding, you know, Mike Mims and Charles and, of course, Kevin Millar. But we had set the tone with Bull Durham. And then Kevin Millar developed. The next thing we needed was a Daryl Strawberry because we needed somebody, one, who we didn't need him to sell tickets. And that was one of the selling points. so much because I was opposed to that I had any care about what his particular past had been. It was more with the fact that, and this gentleman just died, but Jim Caple, if you check, tore my shorts off and said, if, if VAC hires him, he's a phony. He's doesn't stand for any of the things. And I love Jim Caple. I think when he died a few days ago, that's one of the worst. I mean, he's just one of the best and the brightest that we had. And that gave me great pause.

And that never is spoken. And Darryl loved being with the Saints because we weren't pouring him to sell tickets. It wasn't come see Darryl Straub. And what he did for the league, he went to Columbus, he hit three home runs in two games, and then he went right on to the Yankees. So it showed that he had been playing when he hit those 18 home runs in 29 games at a high level, but he didn't have to make a lot of adjustments between St. Paul, this lowly independent team, between St. Paul, this lowly independent team, and Columbus, the AAA club for the Yankees. He progressed from one to the other, and that said to even the staunchest detractors,

hey, there's a caliber of baseball. I mean, like you say, if you make it and play professionally, you're in the top 4% to 5%. It's a difficult game to play. Like you point out, when you got Jack Morris out thinking you on the mound or Strawberry hitting dingers left and right, and I mean, he hit some bombs that are still in orbit. But that was a great year, that year of 96 for independent ball. That's the year that I think we really stabilized and became, you know, pillars a bit much. But we were certainly in the food chain suddenly of Major League Baseball.

Oh, yeah. You proved the concept. So what is the key to a great promotion? I mean, with you, it must be just an instinctive sixth sense at this point because you're so steeped in this world. You learned at your dad's knee or I guess your dad's wooden leg, maybe as the case may be. Right. And so even better, you've been in this world your whole life. If someone pitches you on an idea, do you know immediately, oh, great idea, bad idea? I mean, I guess disco demolition, maybe not the greatest idea, but it worked in the sense

that it sold tickets. But all the promotions you've done with the Saints and your other teams since, do you know sort of snap judgment? It has the ingredients of a successful promotion that's going to bring people to the park and send them home happy? Or are you sometimes surprised by what works or doesn't work? You're always surprised. If you take it for granted, as soon as you think you know, you have to get out of the business because you don't. And the beauty of it, what keeps us coming back is it's just never the same. You know, you try something on Tuesday, it works, and on Friday it doesn't work at all. It's expensive timing. But the thing that I really learned from my dad was the democracy of joy.

And that is that laughter, if it makes you laugh, you've got a pretty good chance that it's going to work. And that's kind of the barometer. And you need to take input from everybody. That's what makes it fun. That's what makes it a crusade. And let's face it, everybody, every single one of us have ideas. As soon as I hear somebody say, I'm not creative, I don't have an idea. I know that's somebody I can work with, because you just need to build up their capability of believing in themselves. I mean, great ideas come from everywhere. It was a lady who said to my dad, put the names on the back of the uniform so I don't have to spend a nickel to buy a program.

I know you're hustling me. You just, you know, you put the number on the back so you have to buy a program to know who it is. I don't want to. So my dad gets credit for changing the face of sports. But the fact is, it was an offhanded comment by a woman in the stands that absolutely he couldn't let go of. That's creation and promotion at its best. Steal the idea and take credit. Right.

Your dad's well-deserved reputation as a showman, I think, overshadows his acumen as an architect of teams. Sometimes those things went hand in hand. You know, signing Satchel Paige sold a whole load of tickets, but it also made the difference to a Cleveland team that won the pennant by one game and went on to win the World Series. Right. So it's not mutually exclusive, but he was just a smart baseball operator in so many ways. So do you find yourself, you know, people will say, oh, yeah, he signed Eddie Goodell, right? You know, the most famous promotions, but maybe forget some of the other ways that he was innovative when it came to just the team on the field. Yeah. I mean, I love you for that because nobody ever really, nobody ever points that out.

But I mean, he won a world championship in Cleveland, seven attendance record, but Satchel Paige that same year, drawn 78, I think his appearance in a night game in Old Municipal Stadium still holds a record for the largest attendance at a night game. But he was also 6-1 in 48 with a 2.47 or 4.3 ERA. Those are pretty good numbers for a guy that really didn't know how old he was himself. So the contributions that he made to race relations, and I'm speaking specifically of my dad now, and I'm going to

sound a little bit like his son, but hopefully not too much, but that was a huge contribution. He was a huge fan of the game. And what he brought to it, Ben, more than anything was he respected his players because he understood that they could do something that he couldn't. And he had great respect for the talent. Sure, he tried to trade Boudreaux all of the offseason in 47. All he did was be the MVP and win him a world championship.

But the fact is that he made some great moves. He's like a Dave Dombrowski, who's a wonderful tinkerer. We're going to see tonight, for example, what Dave can do. But Dad and Dave, Dave learned at his knee. Dad just didn't have the money to do it.

But he was constantly, you know, and people go, well, what happened to your dad in Major League Baseball? Well, that's simple. He testified in the flood case against the reserve clause, and that made him a pariah. So that the other owners loved to say, oh, yeah, that's Beck with his shtick, you know, Eddie Goodell. That was so they could downplay his capabilities with putting a ball club together. Well, your dad's books with Ed Lynn, Beck is in Wreck, and The Hustler's Handbook are two of my favorite baseball books ever. And there are so many great, absolutely 100% authentically true stories in those books. And I'd say there may be some stories with some small embellishments, some tall tales or at least medium height tales, some slight stretching of the truth from time to time.

medium-height tales, some slight stretching of the truth from time to time. And I wonder whether your dad was like that in real life when he was holding forth, when he was spinning yarns. Did he sometimes garnish what actually happened in real life a little bit, even though his stories, the true ones, were so good to begin with? Actually, he really didn't do that. And I'll tell you, to back that up, he was sued or threatened to be sued 62 times or something. Ridiculous number. When Vecas and Rack came out. There wasn't a single one that went to court and obviously not one ever judged. judged. So he had unfailing accuracy if it came to something that was important. In terms of whether it was the story, all I can tell you, Ben, is he never lied to me. I got into a huge fight with Sabre over the fact that how does anybody historically know he really tried to buy the Phillies? And my response is because he told me that he did. And so that's kind of how. Now, that doesn't mean that late at night or like just now, it probably wasn't 62.

I don't remember the number, but it was in the 20s. I know that, that he was sued. And so he really wasn't. He was a great storyteller. He never told jokes. He just told stories. So he spun a couple, and I'm sure he wasn wasn't. He was a great storyteller. He never told jokes. He just told stories. So he spun a couple, and I'm sure he wasn't above. He wasn't a saint.

No matter how many chances he got, none of us qualified. Can you foresee any scenario where we could get a Vecchian character, and that could be Bill or Mike, as the owner of an MLB I had great hope for Arthur Moreno. I had great hope for him. He came out of the minor leagues who moved in, he lowered prices. He did a lot of things. And I thought maybe one of our own had reached in, you know, gotten into the palace. I do think it's possible. I think there are some great characters out there. You know, Jesse Cole run the Savannah Bananas doesn't have a lot of a lot of money right now, but he'll get a lot of backing. And I do think that everything's cyclic. And so I think that a character will come back

that will resemble my dad. It was interesting, though, since you mentioned it that the original working title for the film was the hustlers something and it didn't test well with women which i found very interesting because i always kind of liked that yeah the second one was screwball which i didn't like i took that one a little personally but you know so that gives you an idea. But he told a lot. Dad told a lot of stories about his father and his interaction with his father. And I think that's what, you know, where the love of keeping it somewhat factual originated. I was going to ask you about the Savannah Bananas because they are clearly operating in a Vecchian mold and lineage and the same sort of fun is good principle, right? So how have you followed their progress?

Have they been in contact with you? Have you admired and approved of what they've been able to do? Absolutely. Jesse called me before he started the whole thing, and he said, if you had one bit of advice for me, what would it be? And I said, become your team. Become your team. When we moved to St. Paul, I had no idea it was going to work the way it did, obviously. You know, you being a historian, you can look at that and go, he could never have known.

And I didn't know. But one thing I did know was that I had to either take the credit if it was going to be successful, hog it in my case, or take the lumps if it failed miserably the way it was predicted. And I said to Jesse, be your team. And so the next day he went out and bought a yellow suit and became the head banana or whatever he called himself. And it's worked. So now he gets to enjoy that, you know and and take a couple of bounds but if it fails he was also there to take the lumps he perfected uh you know the the the technology of his time i mean instagram was tailor-made for his delivery yeah and that's what i most admire about And that's what I think that people who are good in whatever field they do, they've mastered the technology of time, men and women who understand the message and then how to sell it. And he has done that.

Would you in the 90s and your dad in the 40s and 50s and 60s and 70s have been all over social media, if that was a thing back then? Oh, absolutely. Absolutely. And, you know, I mean, think about the old man suggesting that they revenue share. You know, imagine when you're operating the St. Louis Browns and the Yankees hear that, and by the time they're done laughing, you know, that doesn't sound like much of an idea, does it? But it's worked pretty well for the NFL. And so, you know, mine is we never designed a promotion that didn't have a media component. I mean, the Saints televised their home games, and I'm the first one to say it was an access channel.

Absolutely. But we televised from day one. To this day, we still televise, or they still televise all of their home games. But we televised from the first day. That was important because I wanted scouts to be watching. It wasn't so much I was looking for the numbers, but I was hoping that, you know, scouts would follow it. They obviously weren't going to come out in droves, you know, until the second or third year. Once Millar was, you know, shown to have the tools he had, the scouts came out. Right.

And how do you encounter and assemble the kindred spirits that have kind of come along and become your partners over the years? I guess most famously Bill Murray, right? But people who see things in the same sort of slightly absurd kind of off kilter, we're all just having fun here and trying to put butts in the seats. That sort of ethos as opposed to just the this is super serious and we must be business-like at all times. I mean, you know, how do you connect with someone like Bill or the other partners that you've developed over the years? You cannot hire ever for a position. And that's the mistake people made. When I was looking for my lieutenant in St. Paul, it was Annie Heidekoper, an expert in home health care. So if she's an expert in home health care, how good do you think she's

going to be when it comes to customer service? And Dave Wright, Dave Wright, a curmudgeon. It's hard to be a curmudgeon. He could guffaw. But Dave Wright was a stringer for TV Guide and knew more about stats than any of the clubs. So much so that his nickname was Stats. And so I put together people who were not experienced in terms of baseball. You can teach anybody that. What you can't teach them is that kind of, as you mentioned, that kind of absurdist way you look at the world. Somebody either understands what, you know, I spent a day and a half in the Warhol Museum in Pittsburgh with my wife. what he was doing or at least enjoy what he was doing, or they don't. You know, and so the reason I hired Dave Dombrowski, for example, was he was 180% opposite from me.

You've got to hire people, not in your image and likeness, but just who are interesting to you. And so the hires in St. Paul were much more important than the fun and games department, as we said. The personalities, I mean, I said it was fun is good because I couldn't say it was Caddyshack, but I mean, I met Bill Murray, shook hands with him, looked in his eyes and said, oh boy, a fellow traveler. And imagine this, he's been successful. He didn't train wreck his career. And you know, I was just drawn and you don't have to explain, you know, and so some of the great gags, he, he took a cigarette as a prop, a cigarette and a St. Bernard. And after a ball game,

he stood on top of the dugout with only six or eight of us there. He turned around, lit the cigarette, took the St. Bernard on a leash, and he turned back around and he was Marge Schott. You see my point? I mean, you realize that he's trained his whole life to be an actor, but when someone turns around and becomes, forget somebody else, but another gender, another, you know, this is a mark of a really talented guy. And so, you know, everything is kind of a vignette that he would do. It's like a Saturday Night Live sketch. You have music out in front, and you have jugglers, and you have painters working, and photographers, and it's a theater street fair, you know, and it was based on a Murray bit. I just kind of had to make sure I

didn't steal it directly from him. But we did come up with Fun is Good before Life is Good. But we did come up with fun is good before life is good. Life is good ripped us off, not vice versa. the minors, the contraction of the minors, the partnerships with some independent leagues? Has that been bad for baseball? Has that been good in some ways? What do you think the ramifications of that are and will be? I think that independent baseball is going to become in the next three to five years more important than it ever has been before. Because I think the control issue, which, you know, as you do this and you talk to people, this is your line of work, right? And you talk to people, they will tell you that this is really about control. It's really a control issue. I mean, cutting the clubs down to 120, I think, was a terrible decision.

But there is one good thing that they're trying to do. There is one good thing that they're trying to do, and that is that one baseball is a fine idea because we needed somebody to bring us all together. I don't think it's the current commissioner. And I think that all of those towns that have been denied a ball club will there will be independent clubs springing up everywhere. And the best of the new lot every five years or every three years, let's say you review it. I mean, imagine. And St. Paul is a AAA affiliate of the—I'm standing up and gesticulating on my porch right now. They are the AAA affiliate of the Twins. Forget it was the highest price ever paid for a minor league team it's the

triple a affiliate of the minnesota twins 30 years after they predicted failure where there's 10 markets right now that are dying i wouldn't mention one rosemont i won't mention rosemont makes a lot of sense for the chicago white socks one way or another right so i think if like soccer you know they were to harvest three or four markets from the independent into you know the club like we like we were suddenly in the club yeah i think that could be very good for baseball i think the inclusion of baseball for all and the women's programs is terrific. I'm one of the few people who looks at this. I think the NFL is making me crazy with this Taylor Swift.

I mean, have you seen the numbers? I don't know if they've come out yet, but it's going to be the biggest concert opening in the history of the world. I mean, that includes Woodstock and Got Live. Get your ya-ya's out. I mean, that's some pretty good live albums, right? This thing's going to blow it away. And here's the NFL sitting there going, God, this morning I opened a paper and she's holding hands with Travis Kelsey. Yeah. Yeah. If only you could have gotten, I don't know, Madonna or someone to date a St. Paul Saint, you would have had it made. Hey, I had one of those people. I can't remember who it was, but for four days she came around. But anyhow, but you see what I think I really do. I think long term it could be good. I think short term has been a disaster for some

of the markets, unfairly so. But but they'll come back just because there's so many markets that are just too good, you know, so it's a tremendous opportunity for independent ball. I hope you're right as a lover of indie ball myself and a lover also of the documentary that features Mike. It's called The Saint of Second Chances. It's streaming on Netflix now, and I would highly recommend all of the books about and by Vex. Of course, Mike's Fun is Good and The Hustler's Handbook and Vex is in Wreck by Mike's dad, Bill. Just incredible books with Ed Lin. What other teams are you involved with right now? Is there anything you'd care to promote your minor league empire these days?

care to promote your minor league empire these days? If Bill Murray and Mike Bach are involved just a tiny bit in Charleston, suppose they were going to go home to Illinois, maybe Joliet. Oh, where every employee is named Jake. Have a complaint? Go see Jake. Hot dog's not right? Go see Jake. Customer service stinks? See Jake. I have to go now, Ben. It's been a lot of fun. Thank you. Thanks so much. And by the way, call me anytime when, you know,

I always love to talk to somebody who loves baseball. All right. I appreciate it. Thank you, Mike. Thanks, man. All right. Well, after we recorded, the Phillies continued their home run hitting winning ways to take a 1-0 lead in their series over the Diamondbacks. They beat them 5-3 in game one. More on that series next time. Also, one follow-up for you. On our last episode, I did a stat blast with Zach Cram where we compared regular season stats to postseason stats just to see how the scoring environment is different in the postseason.

And as we acknowledged on that stop blast, we didn't account for the fact that you have different mixes of teams in the regular season and postseason. So we were just trying to answer the question of how does postseason look different, if at all, from the regular season without accounting for the fact that postseason teams are different to begin with from teams that don't make the postseason or all teams combined. And we got an email from listener Andrew McKinney, who went a step further and accounted for that different makeup of teams. He writes, episode 2072 stat blast made me curious how much of the playoff differences were attributable to selection bias in playoff teams versus a difference in playoff environment. I average rate stats for all playoff teams versus non-playoff teams in the regular season since 2012 and then compare to the playoffs. This isn't perfect because the raw numbers underlying the percentages are different and playoff teams have varying samples, but it should be fine to highlight

overall trends. The overall takeaway, he says, is that these offensive trends are even more pronounced when you consider the team offensive strength. Instead of a drop from 4.4 runs per game on average to 3.9 runs per game, it's actually more like a drop from 4.8 runs per game to 3.9 runs per game for the playoff teams. Most offensive categories follow this trend, including home run rate, strikeout rate, OPS, WOBA, BABIP, swing percentage, and chase percentage. Playoff teams are significantly different at some things that did carry over and are partially attributable to team skill, such as walk rate, exit velocity, barrel rate, fastball velocity for pitchers, zone percentage for hitters, pace for hitters, three true outcome percentage, stolen bases per game, and slider percentage. And a few of the stats that seem most attributable to team selection, for example, in the regular season,

non-playoff teams have an exit velocity on their batted balls of 88.2 miles per hour, playoff teams, 88.8, but in the playoffs, that goes down to 88.6, or barrel rate. 6.3% for the non-playoff teams seven point one percent for the playoff teams seven point eight percent playoff frequency or walk rate seven point nine percent non-playoff teams eight point seven percent playoff teams that goes down to eight point two percent in the playoffs overall he says as expected much more has to do with october slash the postseason than the makeup of the teams but there's a significant difference there because playoff teams of course tend to be better at things during the postseason than the makeup of the teams, but there's a significant difference there because playoff teams, of course, tend to be better at things during the regular season than the non-playoff teams. So that does skew things somewhat. And that shows you that it's even more of an offensive drop-off in October when you account for the fact that those playoff teams

typically score more runs in the regular season. Of course, they also prevent more runs. And in the postseason, that comes into play too. Even by those standards, I think this has been a low scoring postseason, but we'll have to take a look at that a little later in the month. Thanks to Andrew for taking a look at this. I will link to his spreadsheet from the show page. A quick PSA for you, by the way, I do do some other podcasts, some non-baseball podcasts. If you're interested in checking those out, you can often find them on the Ringerverse feed. I host a video game podcast now called Button Mash with Jessica Clemens. We've been busy this month. Lots of video games to play and to talk about. If you enjoy hearing me talk about baseball and you are interested in video games, you may enjoy hearing me talk about video games

too. So listen to me on Button Mash on the Ringerverse feed. Search for Ringerverse with a hyphen between ringer and verse in your podcast app of choice. You can also hear me talk about TV and movies on there too. You can also sometimes hear me talk about TV and movies on the House of R feed. I'll link to both of these on our show page. And you can support this podcast on Patreon by going to patreon.com

slash effectivelywild. The following five listeners have already signed up and pledged some monthly or yearly amount to help keep the podcast going, help us stay almost ad-free, and get themselves access to some perks. Lucy Bloom, Emily Sautter, Big Dog, John Kelly, and Nick Jordan. Thanks to all of you. Patreon perks include access to the Patreon Discord group for patrons only, which is where you access those playoff live streams, one down, one to go. You can still get in on the second one, which will likely be during the World Series. You also get access to monthly bonus episodes, access those playoff live streams one down one to go you can still get in on the second one which

will likely be during the world series you also get access to monthly bonus episodes discounts on merch and ad free fan crafts memberships and so much more patreon.com slash effectively wild if you are a patreon supporter you can message us through the patreon site but anyone and everyone can contact us via email at podcast at fancrafts.com send us your questions and comments send us your intro and outro themes during our listener created song rotation you can rate review and subscribe to effectively wild on itunes and spotify and other podcast platforms you can join our facebook group at facebook.com slash group slash effectively wild you can follow effectively wild on twitter at ew pod and you can find the effectively wild subreddit at r slash effectively wild thanks to

shane mckeon for his editing and production assistance. We'll be back with another episode a little later this week. Talk to you then. Their wacky hypotheticals are perfectively styled And their stat blast queries are detectively compiled They're not a Jerryian baseball Legends selectively Dialed But their spiciest takes

Are still respectfully Mild More than two thousand episodes Retrospectively Filed And at each new one We still collectively Smile that's effectively wild

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