Effectively Wild: A FanGraphs Baseball Podcast - Effectively Wild Episode 2076: Plunk Me Twice, Shame on You

Episode Date: October 25, 2023

Ben Lindbergh and Meg Rowley discuss assorted ALCS and NLCS action and playoff takeaways and trends, with an emphasis on Adolis García’s heroics, the Rangers vanquishing the Astros, MLB’s handling of Bryan Abreu’s suspension, and Craig Kimbrel’s career (plus reactions to the Giants hiring Bob Melvin as their manager). Audio intro: The Shirey Brothers, “Effectively Wild […]

It's the wildly effective, effectively wild. It's been made a long shingle. Bad to paint a war. You might hear something you never heard before. Hello and welcome to episode 2076 of Effectively Wild, a Fangrafts baseball podcast brought to you by our Patreon supporters. I'm Meg Raleigh of Fangrafts, and I am joined by Ben Lindberg of The Ringer. Ben, how are you?

Doing quite all right. How are you? You know, I'm doing fine. Good. I'm so happy that we have had not one but two CSs go to a full seven. By the time people listen to this, we might know the full World Series matchup. But as we sit and record on Tuesday morning, we know one half of it will involve the Texas Rangers. And despite doubts, reasonable doubts, the Arizona Diamondbacks are in position to, you know, maybe advance themselves. They've forced a Game 7, which I have to tell you, Ben, not what I anticipated would happen when faced with having to go back to Philly and deal with Aaron Nola.

So, you know, snakes alive, as they apparently say. Yes. Here we are. Yeah. The playoff competitiveness has improved since the last time we spoke, which was Friday prior to a couple of classic games that night. So that totally changed things. Did a stat blast about how uncompetitive the postseason had been and not a lot of lead changes and very few lead changes late in the game.

And then we got those games when there were quite a few lead changes and late lead changes in both of them. And then the series have gone the distance. So not all of the games have continued to be classics. I would say that NLCS Game 6 and ALCS Game 7 were not really riveting individual games in terms of, again, no lead changes. And the outcome was sort of set fairly early on, or at least it appeared to be. But the fact that one was a game seven and another was forcing a game seven, that helps a lot. Because when it looks like you're heading for possibly two sweeps after

pretty quick early series in the postseason, it just seemed like more of the same. And fortunately, the Rangers and the Astros battled to the end and the Diamondbacks made it a series. So it turned out to be a lot more interesting than it looked early on. Now, would one say that the game seven that we got last night was competitive? I mean, one couldn't say that credibly for very long. Right. But it started out that way. You want bluster, you want excitement, you want shebang. And we were short on shebang, Ben.

We were short on it. Now we have, you know, we don't have a lot. Like, I think that when we look back on at least the early rounds of this postseason, we will probably recall being underwhelmed still, even with the Game 7s. But it's not as bad as it could have been. And, you know, the World Series could look like anything.

We just don't even know yet. Yeah. Well, I guess we can start with the most recent events and maybe work backward to anything that we want to mention so as not to bury the lead, which is that the Texas Rangers won the pennant. They won the pennant. Yeah.

And I think a lot of neutral fans are probably relieved. There seems to be a general sentiment of ding dong, the Astros are dead. Right. Which I don't come to gloat or to dance on the Astros graves. Or to dance on the Astros graves. But generally, like a lot of people, I'm not unhappy to get some new blood in the World Series and in the postseason in general. So I guess in that sense, I'm pleased by the outcome just because the Rangers, I don't know if you know this, but they've never won a World Series ever. Right. Yeah. Little known fact about the Texas Rangers. Yeah, I do in fact know that about them.

I have two things to say about the relative newness of the field. And of course, the Phillies get to throw out Ranger Suarez tonight. They have a good bullpen. They will probably not give Craig Kimbrell any high leverage moments. So we might end up with a repeat attendee to the World Series. Famous last words, potentially. People might be listening to this right now saying, Meg, how little you knew. How little I knew. I mean, like when you're saying that like Zach Wheeler is available in relief, you know, I just think that something really bizarre and catastrophic would have to happen for it to come down to Kimbrel.

And again, someone might be saying, Meg, my stars, how little you know. But it seems unlikely to me. So we might end up with a repeat participant. Obviously, don't have the potential for a repeat winner. This is the first World Series in six years, Ben, that will not feature either the Astros or the Dodgers. I think that's, I think that's to the sports benefit. And I don't say that to knock either of those clubs in particular, although I am going to have something to say about the Astros in a second that might annoy some people, but it's good to have a variety,

a mix, you know, it is a testament to the strength of those organizations that they so routinely feature. Because, you know, I was talking to a person who works for a club this weekend and they were like, it's just so hard, you know. It's just so hard to get to this point. And you can't take it for granted. And we were, I think, kind of close to taking it for granted that at least one of those two organizations would be a World Series participant because the recent history has shown that to be true. But it's good to have an infusion of newness. It's always exciting when you have the potential for an organization to win its first World Series.

I think that the success that the Rangers have had this year provides an important sort of counterweight to the perception that the, you know, the seasons that the Mets and the Padres had, which is that like, you spend all this money and what is it good for? It doesn't get you anywhere. And it's like, well, it got the Texas Rangers to the World Series, at least in part, you know, it wasn't exclusively those guys and it wasn't exclusively the spending, but it did contribute quite a bit. Although it is funny that like an Arbonne guy who was released by literally this ball club like 20 months ago, he didn't single-handedly defeat the Astros, Ben. That's an absurd thing to say because this is baseball and that's not how it works. But boy,

did Adoles Garcia have a lot to do with it? Yeah, he had a decent series. Oh my goodness. I've seen people dunking on the Cardinals for how they cast Adoles Garcia loose. And the Rangers did basically the same thing a year later. It's not like the Rangers knew anything. They gave him a shot. It's very hard to know things. Yeah, it took a bunch of guys getting hurt and being unavailable for

him to even get a chance. You know, it's not an example of, wow, the Rangers are so wise and their scouting acumen surpasses everyone else. I'm sure they saw something they liked in him at some point, but they were quite willing to cut him loose and to start anyone else over at Luis Garcia. So it's, I'm sure they've had a hand in his vast improvement since then, but it seems like it's largely a testament to Adoles Garcia for persisting in the face of adversity on the field and people not believing in him for fairly valid reasons performance-wise and turning himself into a heck of a player. Even his breakout, like he's become a better player since his breakout.

Yes. He's not a flawless player. No. He can be beaten even on his heater that he's had and a sterling postseason. He hasn't walked once this postseason. No, he sure has not. Not even one time. Which, you know, when he's hitting five homers in this series.

Yeah, you're not complaining about the lack of walks. But that tells you the kind of hitter he is. And that might lead to some streakiness from time to time. But certainly a scintillating player. Oh, man. Whatever else you might say about him. Just like his good friend, randy rosarena who dominated the playoffs a few years ago yes he has that that same sort of rising to the moment and also making the

most of rising to the moment like yeah he's not a shrinking violet out there he is enjoying every one of his clouts and like you know you can tell his can tell his, I mean, I'm sure you'd have to be, you'd have to be a real stinker for your teammates to not enjoy you. If you had done what he did, not only in the postseason generally, but in the CS in particular, but like, you know, his guys seem to really like him. It's nice. It's like, it's a nice thing, but yeah, I mean, he hit 357, 400, nice thing but yeah i mean he hit 357 400 893 with a 530 wobba and a 246 wrc plus in the cs like you know 15 rbi uh he hit five home runs as he said it's just uh that's really i don't know ben

it's really good it's pretty good yeah yeah i've been trying to quantify how good it is it's it's hard because we have the the power of the fancrafts postseason leaderboards now and we can sort these things every which way. So what do you sort by is the thing. We're so used to sorting by war often when it comes to regular and Sean Dillonar figure that out someday, potentially. But you could sort by win probability added. You could sort by WRC plus. And then do you need some plate appearance minimum? You could sort by something a little more arcane, like weighted runs above average or RE24 or something like that, which are maybe the closest we can come currently to playoff war, but just aren't as well known as stats, right? Or do you look at the whole postseason or do you look at just the series? Like if you go by RE24, this was the fourth best CS ever. I don't know. It doesn't sound as impressive maybe as it was to watch, I guess guess partly because he packed a lot of that production into the later games of the series. And also, he struck out four times in that one game before he

hit the Grand Slam, which you kind of forget because he hit the Grand Slam and then the subsequent home runs and all the theatrics to go with the heroics and everything. So, there have been better series and there have been better post seasons but he's been really riveting to watch recently at least yeah he's been fantastic and like he he got his home runs he got beaned he got angry about being beaned he got beat on uh on some strikeouts and then he had a bunch more home runs and got to emerge victorious like it was a narrative full of mostly highs but like lows that also enhanced your enjoyment of the later heist right like you could shrink from the moment having been beamed and caused this fracas and all of this tension and you know comments laced with paranoia from the Houston Astros.

We're going to talk about it, Ben, but we're going to appreciate Adoles Garcia first. And so, you know, it could have been that he sort of faded into the sticky Houston Knight, and instead he is going to play in the World Series. So that has to feel pretty good for him, even if he feels pretty lousy for the Astros. Yeah. And the one time that I will sound almost old school and will frown upon a player celebrating

something they did, admiring one of their clouts. Oh, this is when you don't end up on second base when you do this? Yes. When you call it wrong. When you start walking, you think you got in that way and, you know, semi-embarrassed myself by admiring my shot and then it turned out to hit the top of the wall and I ended up at first base and it was an important hit anyway, right? But still, it's not the best look. I would probably be very eager to immediately steal second base if I had that capacity just to undo the mistake. I guess there's no way we can query for that, unfortunately. Just look up all the times that someone

admired what they thought was a home run and it turned out not to be, and then they ended up at first base. Did they steal at an above average rate or attempt to steal at an above average rate? I would be more likely to throw over there, I think, just knowing like, will he try to have a makeup steal here just to erase the stains of that? But yeah, I don't think anyone really remembers that because not only did he steal that pace and come around to score, but then he subsequently did hit home runs. So did not matter. Not at all. Well, and this has always been my, I don't have any like old school unwritten rules objection to celebrating one's home runs. I appreciate that for the most part, the guys who do it don't celebrate at the pitcher because that feels a little rude.

But if you're having a big moment in a series and you hit a home run, I'm going to do a swear, you should pimp the shit out of that. That's totally fair game in my opinion. I would never do it though, because what happened to him in that moment, which again, didn't end up mattering. That is what I would fear that I would like misjudge it. And you know, if it was me hitting it, first of all, it would never get far enough for me to be confused. But imagine for a moment that it did, I would be like, it wouldn't be a matter of it becoming a long single i'm sure it would just be a fly out and i'd be like well now i'm going to be made fun of on the internet for the rest of my life but the rest of them went far or were in the air for so long i also do we know that the guy who got

hit by nathaniel lowowe's home run is okay? Because there was a fan who took that ball right in the chest. And I'm concerned for him. Is he doing okay? I hope so. I don't know. Can't confirm. Yeah.

Adolis Garcia, pretty good baseball. What a fun trajectory. What a ride. Do you want to talk about the Astros a little bit? Because I have a couple of like, I have some meta thoughts, but I also have some thoughts about, like, did it strike you that maybe some of the pitchers weren't too long, that maybe Martin Maldonado should not have had some of the at-bats that he did? I am loathe to speak ill of him because it sounds like he might have reached the end of the road in terms of his managerial career. Yes, I was going to say. But I don't know that it was Dusty's best managed game. No.

Or a couple games even. There were times when he showed a willingness to adapt and to pinch hit for Maldonado and even for Jeremy Pena. Oh, Jeremy Pena had a terrible postseason. My goodness. Yeah. Yeah. Maybe it's just I'm fooled by the body or something. It's like a selling jeans thing.

Because I look at him and I'm like, this guy is great. Yeah. Well, and he had a, you know, he, the first half of his rookie year, he was incredible. And then his second half was kind of meh. And then he basically won them the division series last year. I mean, he won the game that helped them advance to the championship series last year with that home run and the very long game against Seattle. But yeah, he, for the entirety of the postseason, he hit 200, 238, 225. He had a 28 WRC+.

You know, it was worse than Martin Maldonado. And that's not territory you want to occupy. And like, whatever, it's 42 plate appearances. But he's not like a a force in the way that i think you're thinking of him as but i get it like you look at him and you're like that guy's probably a good baseball player right yeah you know he's still a productive valuable big leader because of the glove and everything but yeah i keep expecting the bat to be better maybe it will be who knows maybe it it will be, but it's right around league average right now.

Yeah. Dusty, in addition to his affection for Maldonado, he developed an affection for Mauricio Dubon, which was perhaps similarly debilitating, although he at least had some empty average. Right. But, yeah, and then, you know, Jonathan Singleton, I know he kind of came through once, but then, gosh, for a pinch hitter, he is not very good at hitting. And if there's any concern about long layoffs, he has not been busy of late either. And then one of the weirder decisions,

which may not have mattered at all, One of the weirder decisions, which may not have mattered at all, but going to France in game seven, right? Like, JP France, if not the worst pitcher on your staff, I don't know, second to last on the depth chart, right? And then, yeah. He was in for a long time. It was too long a time. He hooked Javier in the first, of course, like things were running off the rails. And he went out there and made that move quickly. Yes.

But to put in France when it was still a winnable game, right? It was the fourth inning. They were down 4-2. 4-2, yeah. With the Astros' offense, I mean, we know they eventually scored a couple more runs, but you got to figure they would score some more. And you have a pretty full, relatively rested Penn by that point. You have Brian Abreu available. Yeah, we want to talk about that.

Yeah, you have a wealth of options. So that just seemed like a weird call. Like that seemed like a lack of urgency in that moment. You got to do what you can to keep that close. Yeah. And then to like to leave him in as long as he did. Like I thought the decision to pull Javier was the right one because it was clear he did not have it, you know. And then Brown, like like you know he he gave up that home run but like yes it's it's sodalis garcia we've just established that he's the best

baseball player on the planet sure and they had chased scherzer right it was four to two i just you know we know how shaky the rangers pen has been and obviously like they countered with Montgomery and so you knew that it was going to be a little tougher sledding than you might have expected from you know some of the weaker parts of that bullpen but it's an argument to to try to keep it close because eventually Jordan Montgomery is going to be done he's not going to throw the rest of the game and he didn't throw the rest of the game so keep it close so that you're you know in a position where you're very good and potent lineup can counter these runs it just didn't i mean like maybe maybe he's sitting there and he has a good reason to go to france but sticking with him as long as he did just made very little sense like he got he got got bad and like you know at a

certain point you've satisfied the three batter minimum get him out of there and try to bring someone else in to to limit the damage but it did not go that way and then i don't know that's like the worst kind of end to a game seven as excited as we were for game seven because it's like okay by the time you get into the later innings like you have a like a i think they had a seven run deficit in the eighth but you know that it's just gonna take a while right it's like this slog but you know what else are you gonna do and they tried to they tried to make it a little bit of something in the ninth because also why was Jose Leclerc in this game? I guess you want him to be able to be the guy who's on the mound when you clinch,

but also why? One of his arms is going to fall off, and you just have to hope it's not the pitching one because he's been out there for so many. World Series doesn't start until Friday, but still, once you're this late in the playoffs, there's a cumulative wear and tear there. Yeah. So if Dusty does retire, we wish him well and happy trails.

He's had an incredible career, but it was not the best little swan song or the way to go out there. And I guess that's sort of a shame because there are people who still have sort of, I think, out of date ideas about Dusty as a manager. And I think he's gotten better over the course of his career as an in-game manager. And that wasn't the best illustration of that. But who knows whether it actually made any difference in the end. But, yeah, we can talk about other Astros, less loved Astros. Well, let's talk about a very good Astro, though, before we talk about that. I'm just going to keep delaying the meta discourse.

Boy, did Jordan Alvarez have a good postseason. Yeah. Oh, my God. Like, you can't – there's something very special about a guy who is hitting so well. about a guy who is hitting so well. And it's not that Jordan isn't capable of streakiness or whatever, but like a guy that is hitting so well that when you hold him to a single, it feels like you've accomplished something, you know? Like you've given up a hit and that's, you know,

there are shades of bad, but it's never a good thing to do, right? And if you hold that guy to a single, you're like, man, we crushed it because he didn't. Yeah. Jordan has had a much better postseason than Adelius Garcia on the whole. If you go by WRC plus or just the slash stats or anything, right? Not to put Garcia down, but Jordan was just a total monster once more. He is pretty unstoppable. He is incredible.

But it was not a one-man lineup, but at times he was kind of carrying those Astros. I mean, you know, you were still getting contributions from another postseason legend, Jose Altuve. And you were getting some pop from Bregman from time to time. And Brehu, too, even. Yeah, Brehu, right, which wasn't really expected. But the bottom of that Astros lineup, I mean, you always knew that there were going to be some weak spots and some relatively easy outs there. But then Kyle Tucker didn't have a good postseason.

Yeah, crummy postseason. Brantley, who knows how Brantley is physically ever really. But yeah, it was kind of once you got past Jordan, you could breathe a little bit easier, which I guess would be the case in any lineup because he's maybe the best hitter

in baseball, but especially with the way the rest of that lineup was hitting. So yeah, he and Garcia and Schwarber, for that matter, who's having a legendary postseason again, like a lot of reputations being burnished, right? I mean, Nathan Evaldi and Zach Wheeler, like a lot of people who came into this already with some pretty impressive postseason credentials have only improved them this year. Yeah. I struggle to think that like there's a real skill to it, you know?

I mean, there's like skill to it, but there's, I struggle to think there's like a special postseason skill, right? There's not like a switch you flip. But it is, it's very cool. Like, it's just a very cool thing when a guy sustains it such that you're like, there's something special in there come October. And again, is it real? But also, it feels real. And who am I to say that that's insufficient, you know?

Yeah. Yeah. It happened. It was real. It was real. Yeah. Well, have we delayed long enough? Yeah, let's do it.

Must we? Yeah. Like, okay, so I have a couple of thoughts. Well, let me start with, well, where do you want to start? Do you want to start with Abreu? Do you want to start with whining? Do you want to start with Abreu-related whining? Like, where would you like to begin?

I guess Abreu, because the whining was prompted by the Abreu incident and the suspension and everything. Round one of the whining was prompted by that, yeah. So, look, do I think that Brian Abreu threw at Adolis Garcia on purpose? Ben, you know, here's the thing. It would be a dumb place to do it, but i kind of think he did yeah like i don't want to i don't know for sure you know who can who can ever know the heart of another person and i will admit to having a particular lens on this astros team because of the mariners and so that does introduce the potential for a bit of bias here but i will say that it

would not be the first time i've observed the astros being kind of petulant and seemingly throwing at guys on purpose and so i think that there's a i don't want to put a percentage on it but you know is there i think there's a reasonable chance that it was just a mistake and he didn't mean to plunk Garcia. I also think that there's a not small chance that he did it on purpose and maybe thought to himself, well, no one's going to think I was doing this on purpose. This is a really stupid moment to throw at somebody on purpose. I'm going to have great plausible deniability here so i think that's a possibility also i think that uh don't throw people on purpose that's bad i don't know if say aroldz chapman threw at uh chas mccormick on purpose i sure hope not because he's 104 miles an

hour and like you shouldn't really ever do it on purpose but you really shouldn't do it if you're throwing 104 poor chas mccormick like he has to go home and he's gonna sit weird for like a week at least you know because that that bruise is gonna be a big it's gonna be a big bruise and even though it wasn't his butt like you know when you sit down your your hammy's making contact with stuff that's gonna hurt for a while i think yeah the abreu pitch to Garcia was 99, so that's not exactly coming in slowly. But yeah, when I saw it initially, I thought, well, gosh, it's better not to intentionally throw at people with a weapon, basically. But also, it's game six of the ALCS and you have a 4-2 deficit, right? And it's the eighth inning and your opponent already has a runner on base and no outs and they've got something going. And so to put someone on base in that situation, very, very counterproductive.

Counterproductive. Yeah. But players don't always do the thing that they should do based on wit expectancy. They're not always consulting the tables and making decisions accordingly. So if motions come into play, then they may make a dumb decision. All of us have let our emotions get the best of us. Not in an ALCS game, but emotions ran high. And there was history between these two teams, of course.

Going back to their last regular season matchup. Between these two teams, of course, going back to their last regular season matchup and one of the umpires at this game, Dan Bellino, had been at that last blow up. So he was familiar with the way that went down. And Garcia, of course, had admired his home run earlier in the game and walked most of the way down the first baseline before finally breaking into his trot. And he immediately took it as intentional. And I guess in a lot of these cases, we're reading body language, which is pretty unreliable, probably. It's like when there's some tragedy and people are scrutinizing whether the person cried or something. It's like they didn't show appropriate sadness outwardly.

So they're a suspect or something like sometimes that might be true. But other times, no, not at all. It's just that people process these things and respond to these things differently. So there are many times when a pitcher will drill a hitter and will not evince any sign of remorse or apology, right? Like, I feel like if I were to hit a hitter, I would immediately be like, oh, sorry, oops. Yeah. You know, didn't mean to do that. And a lot of players will make some sort of gesture and apologize or at least show some

sign of being sad, regretting their mistake. And Abreu did not at all. Now, you know, other guys, just the way that hitters will sometimes refuse to show that that hurt, even though it obviously did. Pitchers will sometimes refuse to show any sign that they didn't do it intentionally. Because even if it wasn't intentional, maybe there's some intimidation value or something to telegraphing that. Maybe you want to look like a hardcore competitor who might hit you on purpose even if you actually didn't. But he certainly didn't recoil or respond like, oh no, how could I? And he is someone with generally excellent control who does not hit people typically. So it would have been a big

mistake, unusual for him. And he very much took it in stride. So when you weigh all of that, I don't know what it comes out to, like my percentage confidence that it was on purpose or not. But like my baseline in that situation would be no way. Right. And watching it play out, I was not no way. Yeah. I was a good way from no way. Yeah.

And so this happens. The bench is clear. Garcia is very upset. You know, there are ejections. We have Dusty refusing to leave the dugout, which was like the greatest. And then a suspension is handed down to Abreu for an in-series incident. And he appeals the suspension. It goes to an arbitrator.

Is that the right term here? Here's the appeal before game seven decides that he should serve a suspension for intentionally throwing at a guy and then decides that that will happen in April. That suspension will be served in April. And like there are a couple of things here. So like one thing that we know is that all six of the umpires on the field on the night of the incident agreed that it was intentional and so some of what the league is maybe having to grapple with here is like massaging the relationship they have with the umpires and the umpires union right

they generally don't like to overturn especially a unanimous decision on the part of the empires. Like, they tend to not mess with that. But also, you can. Right? You could say, look, we looked at it. We appreciate what they thought, but we just don't think that there's sufficient evidence here to determine that the pitch was an intentional hit by pitch and so no suspension they could do that instead they're like doing this weird halfway nonsense where they are rendering a logically inconsistent decision and not doing anything to deter future bad acts

either by the astros or anyone else right because if the penalty for intentionally throwing at a guy in a playoff game is that you serve a two-game suspension next season when you know you're gonna take a pay cut because of that but like in april when the astros bullpen will be very rested and it has minimal impact on their ability to win games you're not deterring that behavior going forward so like chapman i'm not saying chapman threw at chas mccormick on purpose i don't know chapman unlike abreu throws the ball all over the place these days so like you know the idea that he might miss and plunk chas mccormick who did not throw up and i maintain that that is ridiculous because if i were hitting the hamstring with 104 mile an hour fastball i would just immediately throw up

on the field and i i think that we need to spend time thinking about this point of difference i already brought it up on the pod before but i am right it is they're you're right they're amazing yeah sam wrote about this recently and and what he concluded is that not only are baseball players probably physically tougher than most of us are. And, you know, by the time they get to the big leagues, they've been plunked who knows how many times in their lives. So I guess they've maybe developed some sort of outer protective. They don't have harder skin than anyone else, but they've experienced that sort of pain before. But also, he noted, they handle the hitting better in the sense that they contort themselves into a better position to receive the plunk than we would like we would not react quickly enough right to be hit in the way that would minimize the the damage and the pain absolutely not yeah and i'd just be dead yeah and sometimes players aren't either obviously sometimes they get hurt in the worst possible way and they can't twist out of the way in time right but a lot of why you shouldn't throw guys on purpose

yes but a lot of the time because they're so experienced and they're conditioned and they've been through this before, they are able to present a part of their body that would hurt a little less or would be less likely to sustain some long-term damage, right? So I think that is maybe one of the things that sets us apart. It's not just like our pain thresholds or how good we are at hiding what we're feeling, but it's also the fact that they put themselves in a position where it would probably hurt less than it would if we were in that same position, but it's still got to hurt a lot. Which makes sense if they're able to get their bats to the point that they could make solid contact with a ball thrown by a major league pitcher, which we could not do. Then I guess it makes sense that they could also get their bodies in such a position that it might do a little less long-term damage or even short-term pain than we would.

than we would. But that said, I think probably being plunked by a pitch like that on any part of our body would be just, that's it for me. I'm done for today and possibly a good long while after that, I will just be in bed icing this for the next week or so. Yeah be it would be disastrous i would just be i'd need to be carried around you know like i would just need to be carried around after that but all of that to say post hit by pitch litter just just people just transporting you from place to place because yeah i'm too weak to move yeah after that just you know um. So all of that to say, like, it can be very bad and it can be very damaging. And, like, you can hit a guy. You can try to be hitting him, like, not hard. And it can injure him.

It can compromise his availability for the remainder of the series. I'm not saying that, like, he hit Mitch Garver on purpose. But, like, that guy needs to get rib x-rays now. Mitch Garver on purpose, but like that guy needs to get rib x-rays now. So, you know, these things can have consequences for the hitters involved. And so if you're gonna say he did it on purpose, there needs to be a more immediate consequence to it, then we'll see him next season, you know, and I understand that there's a reluctance on the part of the league to to intervene in discipline that is going to have a potential impact on the series. And I know that the determination of this is a purpose pitch is a judgment call. And so you are introducing potential error into a really high stakes moment for all of the players involved. But I just think that if you're going to say he did it on purpose, then like he has to sit for a little bit,

you know, it can't just be and he gets to go out there again. And for him to then, I don't know if him hitting Mitch Garver then makes me think that it was less on purpose because it's like maybe this guy's command is just deteriorated in a weird way all of a sudden i don't know but like that and then it's like okay so toss him now like he's hit another guy you just have to be you just have to be done now

yeah i thought actually that that made me think it was more likely because that struck me as even more clearly intentional like just sort of a spiteful, hey, I'm here, we're losing, we're probably going to go out, but I'm going to get one last lick in here, right? Because I'm eligible to pitch. Like, in that case, it was, you know, they were down eight to two in the sixth. And Garver, yeah, that looked like it hurt a whole lot just with the placement of that pitch. And because Abreu just does not hit a lot of guys, he hit three batters the entire regular season in 72 innings. And now you're telling me that he hit batters in back-to-back games here? games here? Like, it's certainly statistically possible, but it seems like a sort of spiteful FU on the way out, it looked like to me. And if he's capable of that, if that one was intentional, then that retroactively adjusts my thinking for the previous one, right? Because if he is someone

who is willing to hit a batter on purpose, then that says to me that he would have been willing to do that the day before as well. So I guess the Rangers are not unhappy that he wasn't ejected from that game because he then gave up that home run. I guess the guy who got in the way of Nathaniel Lowe's home run maybe is unhappy because he wore that one but they got immediate payback by tagging him with that homer but right but yeah i don't really understand how you could not eject him and like tack on an additional suspension potentially too if he's just gonna it's almost like you know kind of flouting the discipline it's like i'm just gonna do this again right or at least there's a possibility that that that was what would have happened right and so all of this happens and then the the astros and their fans devolved into conspiracy-laden silliness i'm to call it silliness. The idea, you know, Ken Rosenthal had a piece in The Athletic about how anonymous folks with the team were convinced that this was the league showing favoritism to Chris Young because he used to work for the league. but then there was a lot of reaction on Twitter from Astros fans to their loss. And they're allowed to be disappointed because it's disappointing when you don't advance to the World Series.

But I guess, like, I've been thinking a lot about this. I know that Michael Bauman has made a similar point to this. I feel like the Astros, both as an organization and as a fan base, are, like, caught in between in a way that is not to their benefit. Like, after what happened in 2017, they needed to pick a lane. They either needed to do a full heel turn and just say, look, we are the villains. We are villains. We know everyone hates us. We're going to lean into that.

This is, you know, our bit now. We're going to do the bit. They either needed to do that or they needed to, like, be very, very contrite and sad. And instead, they needed to like be very very contrite and sad and instead they're like defensive and prone to this like paranoia that there's a grand conspiracy on the league's part to like you know punish a brayu and i just you guys gotta your your your vibes are off right like you either need to lean into being the villains

or you need to be like yeah we're really sorry about what happened in 2017 and they they didn't do that they're just like defensive and it reads as like kind of whiny and petulant and it's weird because so few of the guys who are on that team are still on the astros yeah and yet it has been this thing that has persisted and now a counter argument to that might be it's so few of the guys who are on the astros why would they lean into being the heels they weren't even there and like okay fine that's a fair that's a fair counter but also this is just like a weird bit of you you seem so whiny don't be whiny like whiny, whiny is the worst posture for anyone to take because you, no one likes whining. Everyone, there's a reason that parents say don't whine, you know, like,

or why your, your partner might say, don't whine. Whining is annoying. Whine is an inherently annoying posture. So just don't do that. Do other stuff. Be, be heels or be, you know, like, yeah, Be heels or be, you know, like, yeah, and this is the following regular season. One would be Uli Gurriel in 2017, although that was not an unfueled infraction. It was not the same issue. It was not hitting someone, potentially injuring someone. It was his offensive gesture. I guess the best case for MLBs sort of, or the arbitrators, or both, sort of the Solomon splitting the baby solution here that doesn't really make anyone happy, and not in the way that they say a good compromise leaves everyone unhappy, but just in a way that everyone's pissed because it seems like it just doesn't send a clear message one way or the other.

The best defense or argument, I guess, would be that postseason games just such outsized importance, like you suspend a reliever for two games in the regular season. It's basically meaningless. Like the games are so much lower stakes. There's a good chance that the reliever wouldn't pitch in those games anyway. season, it's basically meaningless. The games are so much lower stakes. There's a good chance that the reliever wouldn't pitch in those games anyway. Whereas if you're one of the top relievers on a playoff team and you're going into game seven of the ALCS and you got the World Series, you're leaning heavily on that pitcher. on that pitcher. So there is just a magnifying effect there where I guess you could say it's disproportionate by the standards that MLB has set. Now, I think the standards MLB has set are

too lax when it comes to plunking someone on purpose. If you've decided that that's what happened and you're punishing someone for that, then I think it's fine for there to be a severe penalty. But because there's usually, unless it's a repeat offender or some really egregious case, usually MLB has been pretty lax about actually coming down hard on pitchers for this sort of thing. Yeah. Which I guess maybe might be because there's never absolute proof that it was intentional. So, you know, there's some reasonable doubt, I suppose, in most cases. But if you really want to dissuade people from doing it, then you have to actually be harsh sometimes, it seems like. Right. it, then you have to actually be harsh sometimes, it seems like. And they're not usually.

And so they might say, look, it's the playoffs. Like, we don't want these most important games to be decided by this. Like, we want the teams to be at their best and have it be a contest between the best teams or at least the best teams that are left standing in our weird, wacky, random playoff format. And I guess I'm semi-sympathetic to that in principle, just in the sense that like, man, what is it? Like, I don't know, 10 times more damaging to your season odds or your championship win probability or whatever. It's way more damaging

to have that come at this point than to come in the regular season. But you could still say, well, then, you know, it's a classic kind of play stupid games, win stupid prizes sort of, you know, it's, oh, no, the consequences of my own actions kind of thing, right? Like if you're going to hit someone in one of these games that matters a lot, you could say, well, if Abreu was endangering Garcia here, then that's even more important than it would be in the regular season. Because what if Garcia hadn't been available in game seven because he got hurt, you know, then he doesn't have the huge game that he has so yeah maybe it's it's fair then you know if you're gonna take a shot at someone then you deserve to have a

equivalent shot taken it at you like a proportionate response sort of so yeah yeah and it's it's just it seems very inconsistent like what message are you sending here? Did he do it on purpose? Or didn't he? Yeah. If he didn't, then don't suspend him. And if he did, then you got to make an example. You got to actually have some punishment, some consequences for that.

Right. Yeah. Yeah. You do, Ben. You do. It's a thornier issue maybe than it seems just because of the time of year and the stakes of these games. But yeah, that doesn't change my mind. Totally. It makes me weigh it a little longer and, you know, chew it around a bit more about what I think the appropriate response is.

But ultimately, I come down on, yeah, that's not the way I would have handled it. And I just, you know, like, whining. It's just so annoying. The whining is so annoying. And it's just like this conspiratorial grievance-based thing. And I don't know. Maybe I'm contradicting myself. Maybe this is their version of the heel turn.

And so, I shouldn't ask for that because I clearly find it aggravating. But it's like, you guys, read the room a little bit. I mean, here's the thing about it, and this is not the standard by which I think the league or its sort of subordinates should determine punishment To say, hey, we've been lax in our enforcement with this stuff in the past. And we recognize the, you know, the very real danger it presents when pitchers think that they can plunk a guy 99 on purpose. And you know who no one likes? The Astros. So, sorry, you're suspended for the rest of this postseason, for these two games, So, sorry, you're suspended for the rest of this postseason, for these two games, for whatever. Like, they could have done that, and they would have gotten guff from the team. And, you know, the Players Union might have had something to say about that because they want, you know, punishment to be proportional, which is a good philosophy. But, like, it was there for them if they had wanted to be arbitrary and capricious and probably skate on that you know motivation because of what

team it was and they decided not to do that they decided to do this where it's what the baby thing so it's just a terrible expression like i know what the origins of it are and it's just like the worst it's the worst like why do we indulge this you know we should come up with different words so yeah but anyway so i when you cultivate sort of a general vibe of like a little bit of paranoia, a little bit of grievance, a bunch of whining, some amount of pettiness, if you're going to do that, you shouldn't then subsequently expect sympathy from people because those are all pretty unsympathetic as sort of vibes and postures go. And there seems to be some of that and then i'm just gonna say because i know this isn't every fan of the astros the argument being made by some not all by some that like the rangers bought their you know their world series it doesn't matter even if it were true it wouldn't it wouldn't matter because the thing about it is they're going to play in the world series and your favorite team is sitting at home so yes i think that a more productive line of

thinking for any fan base this is not true of just the astros is like well why why isn't my team spending in a way that makes this easier it's also very funny because it's like not a huge difference between these two clubs in terms of their payroll right now and you know in terms of their i think it's like what it's less than 10 million dollars it's like 14 million dollars that's what we put it at so who cares like this is a reliever you know you're like a reliever's separation that's nothing yes just stop it yeah stop it you you you both you pulled the same deadline move you did the same thing you did the exact same thing. It was different guys. One of them was Verlander and the other was Scherzer, but it was the same move. You did the same thing. Everyone relax. What are we doing?

By multiple teams this postseason for different reasons, different targets, different things they're shaking their fists at the sky about. But yeah, there's been a lot of not the most gracious losing, I guess you could say. I just, and look, when we're disappointed and feel bad, like we aren't always at our very best and I want to have sympathy for that. And I want to extend grace to the, you know, that idea because I'm not at my best when I'm disappointed, but you could just say, I'm really disappointed. I wish that my team had won.

This sucks. You know, you can just do that. You don't have to worry about how the Rangers owner is spending his money. That's it. That's not your problem. That's not your job. You know is spending his money. That's not your problem. That's not your job. You know, that's not your problem.

So don't worry about it. You can worry about how your owner is spending his money and if it's in a way that is going to enhance the competitive nature of your favorite baseball team. But, like, that's not your money. Don't worry about it. Who cares? They're all very rich. They're going to be fine. You know, like, it doesn't matter. Right.'t worry about it. Who cares? They're all very rich. They're going to be fine. You know, like, it doesn't matter.

Right. Which could come up with Philly's Diamondbacks as well, or has already, I suppose. Yes. And I am going to say to the D-backs fans listening to this, don't embarrass yourselves. Don't do it. If you guys lose tonight, just be disappointed. You can just be disappointed. Don't make it about how they signed Trey Turner. Why didn't you sign Trey Turner? You know, I mean, like, I know why you didn't sign Trey Turner, but like, you know, while you're in a more neutral emotional state, just like make a pledge to yourself to not be embarrassing online. You know, just like make a little pledge and then just log off.

That's the other thing. You can have the like not particularly like well-reasoned thing. You can be petty. You can do all of that. It's fine to vent the spleen, right? Just don't do it on Twitter where people are going to dunk on you later.

Just like you shouldn't wear a spacesuit to the Astros game and then have your team lose. You know, that's one of those that feels like a really good idea when you're leaving the house and probably feels really bad when you get home. You know, like take your hat, take the helmet off. Like, you know,

or maybe leave. I don't know. I don't know what you do, but I feel bad for those guys. Don't love these Astros series where the road team wins every game, which this is the second time it's ever happened in a best of seven. And the previous time was the Astros losing to the Nationals in the 2019 World Series. I don't love it just as a spectator because it sort of sucks the air out of the room a little bit. air out of the room a little bit. When the home team is always losing, then you're just going to get less loud crowds. If it's close, obviously they're going to get into it. Like there was

a time in game seven early on when the Rangers went up and then the Astros answered, right? They answered the runs or at least the last one one and i kind of had the feeling like oh here come the astros you know the whole like the astros are inevitable idea and they were not in this game but eventually just the life leaves the building if it doesn't come down to the last plate appearance right and so don't love it i like seeing the home fans happy so i would rather it be reversed i think just so that you get the crowd into it more because it's a weird spectator experience when the crowd is constantly deflated because the home team is always losing yeah it's a weird it's a weird thing did you see that i think it was jordan montgomery was

asked about like you'll have home field advantage was jordan montgomery was asked about like you'll have home field advantage throughout the playoffs and he was like hope we play better than we do yeah no thanks yeah also can i take a moment to just appreciate evan carter talked about how much fun he was having like four different times in a one minute long stand-up after the game and it was a lovely it was was lovely. He was just, that guy's having a great time. He is stoked to be there. He's playing very well, but boy, what a, it was so nice. He was just like, it was a very earnest, like genuine seeming moment where he's just like, how, how could I be stressed? I'm having, this is so much fun. You know? And I was

like, that's great. Yeah. Right. Cause you could obviously have the opposite reaction, which is I'm a kid and I just made the majors and here I am in the ALCS. This is overwhelming and intimidating, but no, if you're a professional athlete and you're wired the way they are, I guess it's a,

you can either be overwhelmed by the moment if you're young and new to it, or you could have an obliviousness to it just to the stakes, I guess. I don't know. I'm not suggesting Evan Carter doesn't know these are really important games and a huge interstate rivalry and everything. But sometimes, you know, you're young. You don't feel, I guess, how nervous you should be. You could either be extra anxious or like less anxious than maybe you should be or that most people would be. Not that most of these baseball players are all that anxious. You know, they're professionals. They are good at these things.

But, yeah, I enjoyed that exuberance of youth as well. So, is there anything else that we need to say about this series? I guess Bruce Bochy, again, I'm not going to hand him the credit for winning the series or not doing things that don't make sense, not doing things that hurt your team's odds. You're not going to help your team get the clutch hit, most likely. Maybe you can put a better hitter up there at the right moment, but you can't get the hit for them. And the Astros in the last couple games, they had chances. They had rallies.

They had base runners. They kept coming up empty, and their losses, they were unclutching and their wins they were clutch funny how that works right but bocce just he didn't you know in the way that we were kind of critiquing baker there weren't that many times when i would have pointed to bocce and say what are you doing bruce right like it just you, he kind of played it right. I mean, he's had a lot of success in the postseason for a reason. The main reason being that his teams have happened to play well, probably. But also, he has at least not detracted from their efforts most of the time. It's funny because like in some ways i imagine the general theme of his postseason

was like very easy for him to identify going in try to minimize the bad relievers exposure to good hitters as much as possible and like that's an easy takeaway from their regular season particularly the end actually executing it is harder and he got good lift from his from many of his starters being able you know like having Montgomery and Evaldi be this way during the postseason has certainly let and let load some but yeah like he he knew what his project was and I think he's mostly made good on it pretty well I mean there have been a couple times where I'm like why is Rollins Chapman still in this game but you know like at some point somebody other than Jose Leclerc does have to throw innings like it can't just be him and to a certain extent Sporce so you know I think he's done a good job I really enjoyed Chris Young on the stage after

did you watch the post game at all did you see any of that um first of all you know he hasn't gotten any shorter which isn't surprising but you know he just was like uh very effusive in his praise of the guys and he was i i think very deft in like acknowledging the work that members of the front office who aren't with the team anymore had done to help get them to this point i don't know it's just nice like he has a nice way about him and uh you know now i'm going to be accused of being in the tank for chris young because he used to work for the league office i don't know he's so tall you know like i have a i have a very distinct memory of being at winter meetings in Vegas, which was my first winter meetings, and walking through the casino to get to coffee because that's what happens when you go to winter meetings in Vegas.

And I was like, from a football field's distance almost, I was like, I'm pretty sure that's Chris Young because he was like, not just a head taller than everyone else, but like a torso tall. He is such a, he's just a very tall man. I was on a panel with him once, and fortunately we were seated, but even so. Even so? There was a significant difference, yeah. Oh, yeah. I'm an average-heighted man, and he's a full foot taller than I am. He's a towering, towering figure.

Towering figure, yeah. Physically, at least. So, yeah, impressive. And I also just, I guess, you know, the fact that the rivalry, which is a real rivalry, the Rangers and Astros-Texas rivalry, was blunted, muted a bit by the fact that the home team was always losing. So it was a little less loud potentially. So that was semi-disappointing. And you're not going to get that same rivalry in the series. But whether we get a Diamondbacks-Rangers

or Phillies-Rangers matchup, If it's Diamondbacks-Rangers, you're going to get two pretty bad bullpens by the standards of pennant winners, right? Like, got to be up there among worst bullpen teams to match up in a World Series. And if it's Phillies, then I think there's probably a distinct bullpen advantage there. Yes. Craig Kimbrell's best efforts notwithstanding. I just wonder whether the Rangers have gotten any clarity in their run thus far, like going into the World Series. Yeah, you have Spores, who's pitched very well in the postseason. So he's established himself as fairly reliable and ascended the hierarchy.

And you have LeClerc, not that he's been spotless and unscathed and untouched. And then you have Chapman, who you just... It's funny, like, seeing Kimbrel and Chapman, like, two of the defining relievers of the era, right? And guys who will probably have Hall of Fame cases made for them, certainly Kimbrell, right? And, you know, Kimbrell has a case. If you're someone who believes in putting a lot of relievers in the hall, the comps for Kimbrell, you know, fairly persuasive.

He's right around there. But I wonder whether it has to count against you in a Cooperstown case down the road. Because you know how some players will get extra credit because people will say, oh, he was so feared, right? Like the Jim Rice argument, most feared hitter. Well, Craig Kimbrell is feared in a different way. Like his fans of his team do not want him in the game. And I know this is not peak Craig Kimbrell we're watching here, obviously, right? But Craig Kimbrell has inspired a lack of confidence for a lot of his career. For someone so accomplished with the resume that he has and as many saves as he has, when he was very young with Atlanta, obviously he was just

totally dominant and filthy, right? But for a lot of his career, years when he's still been the capital C closer, he led the Phillies and saves this year too. Yeah. He has not inspired faith really. And that's probably true of a lot of closers, maybe most closers, you know, like I think many fans would say that it's an adventure when their closer comes in. Yes.

My mom famously thought even Mariana Rivera was not to be trusted. I, I just like, it's such like, it's such a take. It's a very confident take. You know, I respect it, I think, for that reason. In her defense, even Mariana Rivera, pitching as many postseason innings in huge games as he did and as incredible as he was in those games, you know, you throw anyone out there enough times and they're going to screw up sometimes. And even Mario Nervaro has a couple notable postseason

blown saves and losses to his name, you know, that are sort of sports traumatic for fans of that era who are used to winning constantly. Speaking from experience here. But he's the exception. He's the one guy you just really trusted and you wanted on the mound, aside from my mom. And everyone else, almost everyone else is in a lower tier. So maybe it's not fair to hold it against these guys.

But man, when someday people look back at their stats, they will be wowed by them and should be and their consistency by reliever standards. But having lived through the Craig Kimbrell experience, it was not a smooth ride for much of the way. I don't know whether to hold that against him. That's the sort of thing that if he does make the Hall of Fame someday, it won't be on his plaque, probably. People were terrified when Craig Kimbrell came into games to save fans, save games for their team. You were not always pleased to see Craig Kimbrell, at least for large portions of his career. So it's kind of a weird thing that someone who has excelled to the degree that he has on the whole just really makes you not want to look when he comes into games at times.

I feel bad for your mom because if the Diamondbacks somehow win against, I mean, somehow that's rude, but like if the Diamondbacks win against the Phillies today in advance, you know what she's going to see a lot of is Mariano Rivera, quote unquote, melting down against the D-backs for their last World Series victory. Oh, man. Yeah, that's my most painful sports memory. And I know no one feels bad for me as a former Yankees fan.

But that's one reason why I guess I'm not looking forward to a Diamondbacks return. Like, I'm over fandom pretty much at this point. But those wounds. Yeah, that one still is tender. Scar tissue has formed, but still. Yeah, that came at a formative time for me. I bet. Yeah.

I wouldn't care to see Tony Womack and Luis Gonzalez and co a whole lot. Ben, you're going to see it just so many times. This is an anniversary year for the D-backs. And so they've been playing highlights throughout the season of the big moments. And you'll be unsurprised to learn that that year figures very heavily in those. And as they have marched through this postseason, they have like a whole video package about like the history of the D-backs in the playoffs. And, you know, they have two. They have one that is like the entirety of it.

And then they have one that is specifically devoted to the World Series. And they have played it prior to every home playoff game. Because, you know, it's not the same people in the ballpark every time. And so, sure. But I am now very familiar with that video package having been there. Mo, it's not his finest effort, you know. And boy, do they enjoy telling you about it. Go Phillies.

Not really. I you about it. Go Phillies. Not really. I can take it. You know, I think that either would be fun and fine. Like, again, I would enjoy covering a World Series in person. That seems like it would be really exciting. If the D-backs advance, I will miss trick or treat. So, like, that's a mark against it. I want, you know, my Philly fan friends to be happy.

I want the people I know who work in that org to get a ring. That would be so exciting. I think it would be a really cool step forward for the D-backs. I want the people who work for the D-backs who I know to get a ring. It's just, you know, I just want everyone to have a good time and feel like they did their best. And I'm going to be sad at the end of it, regardless of the outcome. So in some ways, it's a very Meg side of rooting. I want everyone to do well and expect to feel sad

no matter what happens. So you know who has had a really rough NLCS is Corbin Carroll. And so regardless of what happens, it would be nice if his game seven were good. You know, that doesn't mean that the G-backs have to win, but like it feels like the young man is pressing a little bit. And so it would be nice if he had a good time. That would be fun.

I hope for Phillies fans that you just don't see any Craig Kimbrell at all for the reasons we just outlined. Low leverage Kimbrell is OK. Maybe. I know his last outing was not disastrous, but he got out of it, right? Yeah. Yeah. No, it's never really routine. It's not easy.

There's something to be said, not for a fan of the team, but for someone who doesn't have a strong rooting interest other than a desire not to see 2001 World Series highlights, or at least some 2001 World Series highlights. Some others bring me great joy. But there's something to be said for bad bullpen teams in the playoffs because comebacks, right? Like we like comebacks. We want to see some late inning intrigue. And it can be kind of painful to watch Kimbrel try to white knuckle through an outing. Oh, yeah, man. Painful for me, let alone for Phillies fans.

Oh, yeah. But in the interest of making it interesting at the end, there is something to be said for not just having a shutdown back of the bullpen where when you have a lead after six, you feel quite confident. Right. where when you have a lead after six, you feel quite confident. If anything, you know, uncertainty, some shakiness is maybe more of a feature than a bug. Yeah, I think that that's right. If you're a neutral observer, although I have to say, I don't remember which of the, I think it was during game six, maybe, that I said this, you know, there was like tense bullpen this and that in that game for the Rangers Astros series, I should say. And I just was like, how are people who work for teams

alive this time of year? Because I don't have, I didn't really have much stake in the outcome of that series other than perhaps a slight preference to see Texas prevail so that we got a little break from the Astros in the World Series. And I was like white knuckling my way through the later innings of that game. And so I would just be a ghost if I worked for a team, I think. I would be like very sleepy ghost. Yeah. Do ghosts sleep? You know?

I don't know. I don't know why they would need to, but who knows? Yeah, why would they need to sleep? What are they going to do? Grow new skin? They can't grow skin. They have no skin. They got no skin, Ben.

No skin in the game. Yeah. So the Rangers, I was trying to get at whether they had gotten any clarity into their pitching plans for the World Series because they get to rest right now, but they don't magically grow better, more reliable relievers during this week. So they still just have their small group of guys that they trust or trust more than others, at least. And I wonder what you do with Max Scherzer now.

Yeah. Because speaking of quick hooks, he was out of that game early as well. Obviously, it didn't go quite as disastrously for him as it did for Javier. But Bochy clearly was, you know, not giving him a long leash, even though he's Max Scherzer. And he's a legend. And he's one of the best pitchers of his era. And also, he seems like someone who would be scary to try to take out of a game. Although, he seemed to take it quite well from what we could see.

Yeah, he did. But just I will miss seeing Max Scherzer stalk around the dugout when his career is over. Because even if he's not peak Scherzer performance wise now, he's still peak Scherzer intensity wise. Just the mad gleam in Mad Max's eye, his different colored eyes. It still is unsettling in a way that it always was. So I wonder what you do with him now.

Do you just kind of piggyback him? Do you use him as sort of opener more or less without naming him an opener? Or do you hope that another few days of rest and rust shaken off transforms him back into a good pitcher? I don't know what you're going to get out of him,

or Gray for that matter, at this point. He's had moments in these two starts where he has been, you know, throwing hard, where his stuff has looked like it plays. But yeah, it's definitely not what it once was in a way that I think you'd have to, the most you're doing is a piggyback kind of a thing. I don't think you probably make him a glorified opener, but you're definitely not... I mean, what's the most you think you're getting out of him? Three innings? Maybe? That was quick, because he had thrown

40-something pitches, and it's a Game 7. Why mess around even if you're the Rangers and you don't have as many great options down there as you'd like? You got big game Montgomery, so even if you're the Rangers and you don't have as many great options down there as you'd like. You got big game Montgomery. So even if he's coming in in relief, maybe you feel better about having him. As long as your rotation is topped by big game Montgomery and equally big game Evaldi,

I guess you feel pretty good about that, given those guys' postseason track records and pedigrees. So that's a strong start to your rotation. It just gets a little dicier with the rest of the staff. in the series situationally will dictate some of it, right? Where you might give him, you know, if you find yourself up 2-0 or whatever, you might give him a little more leash. Not that you would ever like punt on a playoff game, but the degree of urgency that the state of the series demands, I expect will dictate a lot of it, right? But it's disappointing. I feel for him. I i'm glad that you know his sort of struggles and injury and whatnot haven't really dictated anything about this postseason run

for them um which would have you know i would have felt bad about because it's like he can't help getting hurt you know you trade for him he's this big splashy deadline acquisition like does he you know get tagged as sort of unrealistic expectations by virtue of that and the fact that he's max scherzer you know he's literally max scherzer yep so i don't know but yeah i wouldn't i wouldn't feel great about anything kind of coming down to him because that doesn't seem like it's going to go particularly well. Yeah. If we do get Diamondbacks Rangers, it won't be the finest display of postseason pitching staffs that we've ever seen. Pitching and defense wins championships. I mean,

I guess the defense part, but the pitching part, a little less certain. Yeah. Especially once you get past like the the good parts of it although you know some of the good parts of it haven't looked the best for say the diamondbacks but yeah like they're not overpowering in that in that respect um i hope that what everybody takes away from this is like you should just have as many good players as you can you know just as many as you can however you need to get them like just have as many good ones as you possibly can because then things are less stressful who wants to life is already very stressful you you don't you why make it harder for yourself you know just make it easier sure do that yeah the more good

players the merrier so we we actually got a question from listener John, because you know how we talked recently about whether Dodgers fans might rather have kind of an inverted Clayton Kershaw career. Right. Who's really great during the postseason and so-so during the regular season. And we didn't reach a firm conclusion there. so-so during the regular season. And we didn't reach a firm conclusion there, but I always want to stick up for the value of the regular season and the entertainment that you get during the regular season, which is the bulk of baseball action. And so even if you had gotten great playoff Kershaw, and even if that had potentially led to another championship or something. Just think of the many, many happy hours that you've spent watching regular season Kershaw just dazzle opponents of the Dodgers.

But we got a listener email from John who said, maybe Ivaldi is the inverse Kershaw. Maybe this is the kind of career that we were talking about, where he has over four ERA in the regular season and a sub three ERA during the postseason. It's not quite as drastic a split as Kershaw's at least ERA split is, but it might be similar with the peripherals. Like Evaldi just has been better in the playoffs. the peripherals, like Evaldi just has been better in the playoffs. And if you're even as good in the playoffs as you are in the regular season, that's pretty clutch. That's pretty impressive because you're facing tougher opponents. And so if you manage to step up your game in 15 postseason games,

10 postseason starts, then that is really meaningful. games, 10 postseason starts, then that is really meaningful. So for him to go from 4.1 ERA in the regular season to 2.87 in the postseason or 3.83, 2.71 FIP-wise thus far. Yeah. And, you know, you'd probably, you could say that Evaldi has brought a lot of joy to fans of the teams that he's pitched for and excelled for in the postseason. Now, as John pointed out, lifetime earnings wise, there's a pretty big difference there in the sense that Kershaw has earned almost 300 million and Evaldi has earned about 100 million. So that tells you what teams will pay for. They will pay for performance in the long haul and they were hoped for the best in the postseason. And Evaldi, I guess, is a couple years younger than Kershaw now. And Evaldi is not going to be in the Hall of Fame someday,

which Clayton Kershaw is. So I'm not saying to take that so seriously. But if you were looking for an example of what that might have looked like, I guess Nathan Evaldi is a pretty good one to pick. Yeah, I think that that is a very good comp. Oh, man, what a Sophie's Choice we inflict on people. Jeez. Yeah. So is there anything else that we can say about what has happened in the series so far? I guess, you know, probably doesn't make sense to go too deep into Diamondbacks-Phillies,

which will be decided by the time people hear this. So next time we can talk about the resolution of that series and obviously we can look forward to whatever the matchup is in the World Series. But there has been

other good baseball that we didn't get to dissect in depth. And once the series moves on and once the series is decided, I don't know how much appetite there is to return to earlier games, at least in the immediate aftermath. But I don't want to give short shrift to anyone. So is there anything before we hold our peace about these series? I mean, we'll talk about Game 7 the next time we pod. But boy, can Bryce Harper and

Kyle Schwarber hit the ball far? Their home runs are emphatic. They sound different. They are inspiring. I think it was interesting to see Arizona be kind of more aggressive from a base running perspective in game six than they had been it was starting to emerge as a sort of storyline that yeah um they have been pretty reluctant to run some of that i'm sure is um respect for real muto and what he can do some of it i think is that you know the phillies have pitchers who feel their positions well and are quick to the plate. Not so much. Probably not a mistake that they were more aggressive against him. It is interesting that Carroll in particular hasn't really tried to do anything.

They stole bases in Game 6, but he was not one of them, I don't think. I don't think he had a stolen base in Game 6. So it'll be interesting to see how that factors. We'll have a sort of rematch of Fott versus Suarez, but obviously neither of those guys will be on the mound when the game concludes unless something extremely weird has happened. And in addition to the sort of regular cast of characters that we have seen out of the bullpen for both of those squads,

we know that it sounds like Gallen will be available for the D-backs that Wheeler will be available for the Phillies we haven't seen any of Tywon Walker so I wonder how if at all he will get inserted into this if the need arises but seeing how they kind of piece their way through each innings worth of outs will be interesting you know maybe Tori Lovello needs to talk to Merrill Kelly more about when he's getting pulled from games because boy, did he look pissed yesterday. He was pitching really well, but yeah, he did not want that handshake. He did not want that handshake and he seemed quite surprised when it came.

So, you know, it's always to know um how much of that is like sort of like an actual failure of communication how much of it is i knew what the plan was but i'm pitching so well that aren't i just gonna stay in you know both times that that lovello has pulled a starter quote-unquote early after he's been quote-unquote cruising, it has worked out fine. So I don't know if that sort of smooths anything with those guys. And I don't know how big a problem it really is, but it looked not pleasant in the moment.

Merrill Kelly looked pissed. So, you know, that's always an interesting thing to just keep an eye on because I'm always curious sort of how managers deal with that because we've talked before about how one of the more important things that managers do are like those sort of personnel decisions. Some of that is about usage, but a lot of it is about communication. And we so rarely get like a real candid look at what that kind of looks like in action. And so when we get one and it's like, I'm really pissed, you're like, oh, interesting. He's really pissed.

Yeah. And I didn't mean to also omit Quetel Marte when I was listing players who had just fantastic post seasons. And in some cases had previous records of post season excellence and have only doubled down on that. He has been really, really, really good. Just every round he's raked. So he's picked up the slack for some of the Diamondbacks guys

who have not been hitting so well. Yeah, and that's been fun to watch for me as someone who saw him, his rookie year in Seattle when he was 40 pounds lighter and dealing with mono to see what he has evolved into has been really great. Let's see. What else am I intrigued by? We didn't talk about Bryce Harper stealing home. Yeah. So like that was cool and crazy.

It was very fun. I was seated next to Jakeake mince when that happened and you know this is like a thing that you see in college baseball a lot um albeit slightly different because you're far less confident in the quality of your fielders there but that was cool um i really would like it if gabrielle moreno would stop getting blown up at home plate uh which i don't say like i don't think bryce like did anything wrong there i think think it's just a thing that I would like for Gabriel Marino, but that was a really cool play. What else do I want to say about these Phillies and these D-backs?

We'll talk about them more next time once we know how it all shook out. Snakes alive. We'll see, yeah. So there's that. I don't know. I guess I can be done now because you're right. We're going to talk about that more. How do you feel about Kirkering, the prominence that Orion Kirkering has taken on? Here's the thing.

Specifically, the game that he entered with, what, it was like two outs, two on in the seventh. I think it was the first time he'd ever inherited runners in the major leagues. Which isn't surprising because he hasn't been in the majors for very long. Right. And it's always been to start an inning. I think I saw it was the first time in his professional career that he'd been used on back-to-back days. Is that possible? I read that. Yeah, maybe.

I don't know if that means major league career or it can't be his whole pro career, could it? Boy. I don't know. Anyway, that was a conversation that occurred because Kirkering, clearly, he's got great stuff. Yeah, that slider's incredible. Yeah, he's done well when he's been entrusted with some pretty important situations. with some pretty important situations. And it's always fun when a bullpen guy can come up toward the end of the season

and suddenly vaults into postseason prominence like this. But I don't know if it's going back to the well one too many times or in a situation where maybe it was asking too much of him. Who knows? It's already asking a lot of him to be on the roster pitching in these really important games. And so to put him in a situation that he hadn't encountered before at this level, you know, that was maybe kind of questionable, but they really like the guy.

They do. They really like the guy. I get why that slider is incredible i think the command is still evolving in a way that was kind of predictable and when i say that i mean when i read eric scouting report about brian kirkering but he's got a great slider and an even better name and it's very cool when you see a guy kind of make that rapid of an ascent. It is, you know, given the overall strength of that bullpen, I think a testament to their faith in him that he has taken on the role that he has. So, I don't know. I don't really have more to say about Orion Krikering. I wonder if his dad wants the camera in his face quite so much.

I have developed this opinion. I think that family members should get to opt out of the camera being on them in fact i think they should have to opt in because like you know i'm sure some of them like it all of them are excited they're so proud i would hate that i would to be perceived ben yeah no it should be like a player being miked up on the field during a game. It has to be voluntary. You have to agree to it beforehand. Yes. Yeah. I could see it being a nice memento of the experience.

Oh, sure. Right? Oh, sure. If something good happens, there have been so many heartwarming, you know, the parents are looking on and weeping as the kid. He hits his first home run. Right. Yeah.

Gorgeous. And it's nice because the player can't see the reaction in his first home run right yeah and gorgeous it's it's nice because the player can't see the reaction in real time right and so it preserves it for them it's like a keepsake but sure but then what if things don't go so great what if things don't go so well you know or or what if they do go well but like to your point earlier you know there's not one way that we react to good news or bad news like your body language can be all sorts of things i would be i always feel bad for like the wives and girlfriends like if my guy was playing i'd be a disaster i would be a weird gremlin i'd be chewing my own hair yeah you know i don't want people seeing that.

That's a that's a private bit of mega anxiety. No one else needs to be present for that. Or if it is a very cool customer, then you'd feel pressure to emote. Perform, yeah. Yeah, yeah. And I say this as someone who has spent a not small part of her career looking at faces and crowds. But I'd like it if everyone opted in to that.

Like, you know, I made fun of those poor Astros fans in their spacesuits. And you don't wear a spacesuit to the ballpark and think, no, I don't want to be looked at, you know. The act of putting on the spacesuit is in some way consenting to being observed. Because otherwise, what are your expectations? Like, reasonably. But I feel, you know, like they're just two dudes heartbroken that their dumb baseball team lost and now we're all making fun of them on Twitter.

I don't know. Like, we could be nicer, I guess. Last thing, there was a bit of managerial news, non-playoff related. So Bob Melvin going back to the Bay Area, reportedly, to manage the San Francisco Giants. The Giants! Yeah, so... How about that?

It's got to be unusual for a manager who has been as successful and respected as Bob Melvin, and seems to be largely well-liked, a three-time Manager of the Year award winner, and many postseason appearances appearance and a winning record in 20 seasons as a manager.

I guess it's the second time now that his team has just been like, yeah, you can go manage that other team. That's okay. Like with the A's, it was kind of a favor to him. Yes. It wasn't like they wanted him to leave. It was like, look, Bob, things are going to get bad here. Yeah. It's going to get real rough for a while. Why don't you go? You have a chance to go manage the Padres where things are just going to go great.

Great. Then we'll let you take that chance and you won't have to suffer through the sell the team era of the ace right but now it seems like a case of gosh there's been so much reporting about the rift between bob melvin and aj preller and it was said after the season like peter sadler was uh supposedly happy enough with with his leadership team that he was going to keep them in place and and they all said the right things and they were going to work it out and then they're like yeah division rival you you can interview our manager you can hire our manager who's still under contract with the team like i guess that kind of tells you all you need to know about the state of that preller-Melvin relationship probably because you don't just let a respected manager of what is supposed to be a contending team walk to a division rival like that unless there's just no love lost or it would be tough to repair that relationship.

pair that relationship yeah it doesn't it doesn't suggest that things are good over there i wonder how long of a leash aj has i do wonder about that i think that he's likely to make it through this off season because if they were going to move on they might have kind of made moves to do that already but i do i do wonder how long his leash actually is. Yeah. All right. Well, enjoy Game 7, which you will have already enjoyed or not by the time you hear this. So I don't know why I would even say that. But we will discuss it next time.

Well, I hope you did enjoy Game 7. I enjoyed Game 7. The Phillies did not enjoy Game 7. Not its outcome, anyway. Your National League pennant winners, the Arizona Diamondbacks. Just as we all foresaw, congrats to them. Fairly good game. Close one.

Hard-fought seven-game series. And yeah, I'm definitely in for some 2001 World Series highlights. And buckle up, because I'm already seeing takes about the TV ratings, and how another wildcard team winning a pennant means that we must contract the playoffs, which I'm not against, by the way. Just when you thought playoff format discourse had quieted, we have a few days without baseball for it to really ramp up again. Whether you're excited about the World Series matchup or not, and I think there is plenty to be excited about, I hope we get a good series. We will discuss that much more next time. One follow-up for you. Last time, we answered a listener email about a picture with two right hands and what that would look like and how it would work. Would it be effective? And would it,

we wondered, even be anatomically possible? I don't know that we wondered. We sort of assumed it wouldn't be. But now we have confirmation, kind of, from a listener and Patreon supporter, Alex, who writes in to say, I'm not an orthopedist or a biophysicist by any means, but I did go to medical school and I've studied a decent amount of anatomy, so I feel mildly qualified to weigh in on the pitcher with two right hands. Much more qualified than, and I'm even more doubtful that any such reversed hand would confer any pitching advantages. I'll just focus on the nerve supply because I know it best, but there are similar arguments regarding vasculature, musculature, and skeletal structure, each of which, by the way, has distinct embryological origin, making the notion of such a reversal even more far-fetched. There are essentially three nerves which supply the hand, but they do so in a highly specific way. One nerve supplies the first three and a half fingers of the palmar side, one nerve supplies those fingers on the backhand side,

and another nerve supplies both sides of the remaining one and a half fingers. Here's the problem. That arrangement of nerves in the hands can be traced all the way back to their roots coming out of the spinal cord with a great deal of consistency from person to person. So, getting back to this hypothetical picture, what would two right hands even mean? How much in this hypothetical is reversed? It becomes a very slippery slope all the way back to the shoulder. I tried to clarify part of this question by referring to the original AI image that prompted the email. To my dismay, what originally had looked a little bit like an

elbow turned out to be a random portion of a calf and heel stuck onto the back side of the appendage in question. Just look closely and you'll see it. Ultimately, if the hand is reversed and we're assuming that it is able to grip a ball and perform other functions as if it were a right hand, then nearly all of the arm would also have to be anatomically reversed. But then we start getting into questions about spinal changes and or balance, even in the wild hypothetical in which someone is born with a normally functioning left arm connected to another right hand, and there are not any clear biomechanical limitations as a result of this, my guess is still that the individual would end up having functional limitations in our world, which would require a process of adaptation to various other life tasks long before the notion of pitching

mechanics became relevant. That would inevitably lead to physical changes, such that I sincerely doubt we would be able to categorize the hand into either a resembles-the-left-hand bucket or a resembles-the-right-hand bucket. Finally, it's worth appreciating Jim Abbott here, who had a 20-war career as a starting pitcher despite having zero right hands. Good point. Always a good time to appreciate Jim Abbott. Thank you, Alex, for sharing your expertise. We have a lot of very smart listeners who are willing to waste a lot of time talking to us and listening to us. And in some cases, like Alex's, supporting us on Patreon, which you can do by going to patreon.com slash effectively wild. The following five listeners have already signed up and pledged some monthly or yearly amount to help keep the podcast coming,

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