Effectively Wild: A FanGraphs Baseball Podcast - Effectively Wild Episode 2088: Let’s Talk Turkey

Episode Date: November 22, 2023

Ben Lindbergh and Meg Rowley banter about the Phillies re-signing Aaron Nola, the Braves signing Reynaldo López, trading for Aaron Bummer, and rearranging their roster, the Cardinals signing Lance Lynn and Kyle Gibson, the Padres hiring Mike Shildt, Shohei Ohtani swearing teams to secrecy about his free-agent visits, and NHK’s Ohtani documentaries. Then (53:16) they […]

Animatics and humor, philosophical music, Effectively Wild, Effectively Wild, Effectively Wild. Effectively Wild Hello and welcome to episode 2088 of Effectively Wild, a Fangrafts baseball podcast brought to you by our Patreon supporters. I'm Meg Rowley of Fangrafts and I am joined by Ben Lindberg of The Ringer. Ben, how are you? I'm alright. How are you? I'm well. Good. We're starting to get some movement here, hot stove-wise. It's been a slow start. The stove is on a low simmer at most, but we're starting to get some signings here. Some dominoes starting to fall.

And some of them are kind of big in terms of the dollar amounts. Some of them also quite small. But the headline so far would be Aaron Nola's return to Philly. And that was for more money than I thought he'd get. So good for you. Yeah. Yeah. Not you, Ben. You didn't get any of this money. I didn't. I do not get a cut of that, unfortunately. But yeah, 172 over seven years. And that did, I think, slightly exceed the MLB trade rumors estimate and the fan graphs estimates, Ben Clemens's and the crowdsourced one.

Neither of us took the over on that in our over-under draft. Or the under. Or the under, for that matter. No. But it seems like a reasonable amount with a reasonable team. I guess it's exciting in the sense that, yeah, it's the first big prominent free agent to sign for a lot of money, but also a little less exciting in that he's returning to the Phillies. And it just is one of those, yep, that makes sense. So I don't know how

much there is to analyze. It's interesting because he's coming off a relatively weak season, but obviously they were not worried about him long-. And, you know, the defensive support wasn't great for him. And he was great in the postseason, of course. And there were signs of some slippage, I suppose, but definitely not in terms of just raw volume and workload. I mean, he is innings eater. That can almost be kind of disparaging in a sense. It just implies that it's the bulk that matters, not the quality of those innings. That is something to write home about.

The quality of his innings has been fantastic, too, at times. But he is, I would say, probably the most durable starting pitcher in the majors now. I don't know who else would have the claim to that title. majors now. I don't know who else would have the claim to that title. Just going back to 2018, he's made 175 starts, which is the most in the majors. He's been like clockwork. He's been metronomic when it comes to just making his 32-ish starts a year. So I never know. Sometimes people will say that's a positive, like he has a history of being durable. Then sometimes it'll be spun as a negative, like, well, he's racked up a lot of innings on that arm. So I guess you could interpret it either way. But if there is anything that predicts, will you stay healthy?

Will you continue to make starts? It's whether you've been healthy and made starts before. It's never a guarantee because you're always just a dominant, durable guy until you're not, until you get hurt. But for now, at least he's got a good track record. Yeah, I think to look at the season he had and be disappointed is as much a testament to like the good seasons he's had. The good seasons, you know, the ones that we're all like, yeah, no, he's really good. You know, as it is to be sort of disappointed in this one. He was a four-win player this year.

He was a good baseball player. Were his numbers as strong? They were not. But, you know, he was still pretty good. And some of that is the bulk that he provided. But, you know, he's just a good player. I think it's interesting. He is a less dramatic example of this than we could maybe

come up with for others. But I think that he is a good example of teams being willing to pay a little bit of a premium, although not as much of a premium as he maybe could have gotten. So we should talk about that in a second, I guess. but, you know, he made more than the public side folks were expecting. And I think that teams, when they know a player and they have confidence and familiarity in him, when they're able to say, like, this is one of our guys, and we can continue to sell your jersey, and we don't have to worry about filling a rotation hole, even though, you know, Philly could still, I think, use some good quality starting pitching. They're willing to pay for that, even if it is not perfectly optimal from a dollars-per-war perspective.

And I think particularly for a club like Philly, adding extra wins on the win curve is pretty valuable to them. They're in that phase. And they're certainly in that stage, sort of, if you zoom out from a franchise perspective, right, where like, some of their very best players are aging, like they should win now, they should try to win now. And not having to find, you know, another Aranola, but keeping the Aranola you have at home, you know, that's, that's worth $172 million. So that makes a good amount of sense. And it sounds like even though, you know, I know NOLA season was not what he probably wanted,

especially in his walk year. And I know that Philly fans were at times very frustrated with him. But it sure sounds like he really loves being a Philly. Because there were multiple reports of him turning down more money from elsewhere. And, you know, you can always like take those reports with a little bit of a grain of salt, not that I'm impugning Aaron Nola's love of Philadelphia. I wouldn't dare do that because I know that that can be a, you know, a touchy proposition. But there are incentives for teams to be like, no, we did try very hard, you know, and they don't have anything to do with the player in question. So, you know, we can take him with a grain of salt, but it sure seems like he knew where he wanted to be and where he wanted to be was Philly and he was paid pretty handsomely for the privilege of continuing to work for them. So I think it's good, you know, I think it's good. You know, I think it's good. And he's only 30 years old. And yeah, he's been in the Phillies organization his whole career.

They've drafted him. They've had success lately. The vibes from afar seem sterling. Incredible vibes. Just like immaculate almost, you know. So why would you not want to stay? Yeah, they've been in business together for a while now and business has been good of hopefully. So why not bring back the guy you know who has that standing in the organization? There are other good pitchers available this offseason, but bring back not the devil you know, the angel you know, I don't know, just the guy who's been good for you. The good pitcher you know. There's a bunch of innings, you know? Yeah, he's comfortable there. They're comfortable with each other.

You do away with any uncertainty about how is this guy going to adjust to the city or this clubhouse or anything. So as long as you're confident in the performance, then why not? So, yeah. And, you know, I guess elsewhere in the division, in the NL East, speaking of other teams that have managed to convince some guys to sign for maybe less than they could have gotten elsewhere, we should maybe talk for a minute about what Atlanta's doing. Yeah. Because Atlanta's been busy, too. Oh, yeah. Not with major individual moves, but certainly some moves that have rearranged their roster, at least. Right.

So they signed Reynaldo Lopez. Yeah. their roster at least, right? So they signed Reynaldo Lopez and he's getting a three-year deal and what, 30 million or close to 30 million, something like that. And of course, with the 1% of his salary going to the Atlanta Braves Foundation. I mean, that goes without saying, but. I don't know, man. Continue to be floaming.

Me too. But they have added him now and they have done a lot of work in their bullpen already because they brought back Joe Menez, Pierce Johnson, and then they traded a whole bunch of guys. A whole bunch of guys. style trade, in which they got back Aaron Bummer from the White Sox, who has been highly effective, but not so much this past year, but peripherals better than the ERA by a wide margin. So they're hoping for a bounce back for him. And meanwhile, they managed to clear some space on the 40 man because things were kind of cluttered.

Not anymore. Not anymore. Not anymore. No, they cleared like 10 spots or something. Yeah, they only have 31 guys on their 40-man as we sit here recording right now, Ben. Yeah, so Kyle Wright and Mike Soroka and others moving in multiple trades. And I guess there are only so many places

for them to improve, at least in their lineup, because just everyone is good and signed long-term there. And they just come in off a season where they had one of the best offenses ever. So they're trying to improve in the margins. And perhaps they are clearing the decks a little bit payroll-wise. Potentially people have speculated about them going after some high price starter potentially they were connected to nola before he resigned with the phillies and people have talked about them going after sunny gray or someone else at the top of the pitching market lopez reportedly will be stretched out yeah potentially to start We'll see if that ends up happening. And if not, he'll just be taller.

Yeah. But they've got a good group at the back of that pen. Yeah, they sure do. He hasn't had a whole lot of success, certainly lately, in the rotation as a starter. But these days, post the Rays converting all sorts of relievers who didn't even have great track records to rotation. And I'm just kind of like, yeah, I guess. I don't know. It worked for them.

Maybe this team can do that, too. Just teach some guy a new pitch and he'll be good to go. Although he's been better in the bullpen by shelving some pitches that were not as effective for him. So I don't know if that's just kind of a contingency plan and they'll see how it shakes out in spring training or what else they do, what other moves they make this winter, but they're giving themselves options and we'll see if they splurge in some way. Yeah. So I think a couple, we've learned a couple of things about Atlanta and we've also, I'm sorry to say, learned some things about Atlanta's perception of the White Sox,

which is that it maybe serves you well to take a White Sox pitcher and assume there might be some developmental meat left on the bone, even if the pitcher in question is in his late 20s, as Ronaldo Lopez is. So, you know, I think it's fine for them to and he was a good he was good with chicago it's not like he was bad with chicago but he was like you know maybe they think they can

do a little something there um maybe i think they can do a little something with aaron bummer probably more likely to do a little something with aaron bummer do i think ronaldo lopez will end up being a starter i don't i remain skeptical of that But I think that when you look at what I like that what a terrifying bullpen that'll be in the postseason, assuming everybody stays healthy, because even if Lopez is successfully stretched out to be a starter, you know, he's probably going to fall to the back of that rotation order. And that assumes that they don't bring anyone else in, which I think they might bring someone else in. It's not like they want to bring someone else in. Yeah, I mean, they got to go get Lucas Giolito now because package deal with Lopez where one goes, the other goes. Or the 19th person to make that very specific joke. Yes, I'm sure I am. But maybe someone better than that potentially too.

Yeah, like maybe someone better than that. Maybe someone, maybe another like exciting young guy they could sign. And then they should be really, really good. They're already really, really good. They're already really good. Yeah. They have Strider. They have Freed.

They have Morton. It's not like they're in dire need of another good starter. But it would help. You know, they were shorthanded when the playoffs rolled around this past season. But it would help. They were shorthanded when the playoffs rolled around this past season. And to finish my thought, what I was going to say about Lopez is that even if my expectations are wrong and he does end up sticking in the rotation all year, again, I imagine we'll be toward the back of that rotation order. And then come the postseason, you're probably just going to shuttle him out to the bullpen again anyway, because that's what you do with your good back-end starters come October. And so, gosh, wow, that's an imposing group. It's an imposing group as currently constituted, and I expect, at least

on the starter side, that it'll maybe get better as things go on. Although, I would remind every executive in baseball, your families love you. Spend time with them this week. Go be amongst your people, you know, and let us be amongst ours because it's nice to have a little rest and also a lot of food. But yeah, it is really remarkable.

I was editing today the National League compliment to a piece that Eric Longenhagen wrote last week on sort of the moves, prospect-related moves specifically on the 40-man deadline sign and then the non-tender deadline. And to only have 31 guys on your 40-man roster and have this quality is really kind of remarkable. It's got to be very annoying for other teams in their division. And there's still a need for depth here. And I think it would be nice for them to add some guys who you're confident are going to start rather than being reliant on sort of this stretch-out experiment.

But this is a contending roster and it's only got 31 dudes on the 40 men. That's wild. Like Atlanta, wow. Look at you. Look what you did. And while we're talking about teams adding pitching, I suppose we should talk about the Cardinals, right?

When I mentioned I invoked the term innings eater in connection with Aaron Nola, that felt like faint praise. But innings eater, I think that could be better applied to the two starters that the Cardinals have recently signed. A former Cardinal, Lance Lynn and Kyle Gibson. Now, both on one-year deals. And Gibson was $12 million. Lynn was $10, I think. And Gibson was $12 million.

Lynn was $10, I think. And I would imagine Cardinals fans probably underwhelmed so far because it was clear that the Cardinals needed some help in the starting pitching department, right? They traded away some guys, obviously, at the deadline. And Wainwright retired. Not that he was helping them a whole lot in the rotation this year. But clearly they have some vacancies there. And John Mazalek has expressed some intention to add, I think, at least three starting pitchers this offseason. Two down, one to gone, Flaherty gone, Wainwright gone, and the starting rotation was a weakness for the Cardinals as it was. So clearly they needed an upgrade here. This is one way to do that. This is a way to fill some innings, right?

I mean, they just did need some innings, some guys who would take the ball. And you can be fairly confident that Lynn and Gibson will do that. How well they will do it, how good those innings will be, that's anyone's guess, I guess. So, you know, it's fine to start your rotation remodel this way, I think. Like if those are your number four and five guys, that's okay. But I think to complete the set, they would need to go get a top of the rotation guy, right? I don't think Cardinals fans would be satisfied unless they go get a Gray or they go get a Yamamoto or Snell or someone who is in the upper echelons of the free agent starting pitcher market. Yeah, like, you know, there are options before this. Miles Michaelis is fine. And then

it was like, what, 32-year-old Steven Metz? And how many innings? Like, he threw 100 innings last year, you know, like Steven Metz. And then they have, so I still think that they need to make, I agree with you that it would be best if they made an sort of an impact addition from outside the organization. You know, I do wonder how they are going to try to mix in and assess, you know, some of the younger starters that they have on the 40 men who are currently, you know, not sort of projected, at least by us, to be opening day roster guys. So, you know, they have Lieberthor Sem, Rabersaw, who they got from Toronto, and Adam Kloffenstein, who they also got from Toronto. So, like, they have a group of dudes who were, like, younger and are currently starting. And obviously, Libertor has big league experience,

but, like, not a ton. So, I get needing innings and, like, needing a lot of them and feeling that either through inexperience, ineffectiveness or potential injury, they just didn't have the 1200 innings year or whatever to really like play major league baseball. But these aren't like impact additions. And I don't want to be rude to Kyle Gibson again, because I've been accused of being too rude to Kyle Gibson. But I'm more enthusiastic about Kyle Gibson than the version of Lance Lynn we've seen lately. But if I were in St. Louis, I would want like a, you know, like pow ace guy at the top and they don't have that right now. So hopefully they go get one, you know? Yeah. The interesting thing is that the Cardinals were not a defensively strong team this year, which was out of character for them.

It was weird. Yeah. They had the worst, the lowest defensive efficiency is just basically the percentage of balls in play that you convert into outs, which was probably partly the defense and maybe partly just the pitching staff was giving up a lot of hard hit balls. But I remember, I think it was back in July leading up to the deadline, Moselec said how we evaluate pitchers is something that we are taking a hard look at upstairs. More swing and miss versus ground ball type would definitely be baked into future thinking. And he said we're a team that was really good defensively. We understood how to shift. So he said it was partly that their positioning was restricted, that that wasn't an advantage

for them anymore. Whatever the reason, they were not necessarily a team that you want to go get a bunch of pitch-to-contact guys and scoop up all those balls, which is what Gibson is, right? He is a pitch-to-contact

ground ball guy. Lynn, not as much. I don't think of him as a big strikeout guy, but he has a decent strikeout rate. He's certainly not a ground ball guy. He's a gopher ball guy, at least lately. But neither one, I don't think of them as real strong bat missers. So if they want to follow through on that, then maybe someone like that, Snell or someone, Yamamoto, whoever it is, who's going to maybe miss some bats, that would help unless they're banking on a big defensive improvement this year. Lance Lynn is like, I would love to throw ground balls.

I would love to throw pitches to become ground balls. What a lovely development that would be for me, Lance Lynn. Yeah, I think that having, you know, it's not that every guy has to be the same in your rotation. And I, I suspect that even beyond just like simple regression, that we are likely to see some improvement on the fielding side for them next year. You know, some of the guys who are bad defensively this year, like they typically aren't bad defensively and i think there's probably a ceiling on how good jordan walker is ever going to be in the outfields but you have to imagine that with an entire off season i know that that that he like has a whole plan and he's working on you know improving as a

fielder so like at some point that seems like it's likely to get better it just it feels impossible that it would remain as bad as it did last year, although all these guys are a year older, so what do I know? But, you know, you figure that you get some growth or improvement from Walker. You get hopefully more playing time and more consistent playing time from just the configuration of outfielders that you have. You have some of these guys have bounce back campaigns relative to what they showed last year. You know, you could probably afford a ground ball guy or two, right?

Like you could afford it. But again, it's nice to have, it's nice to have guys who can just kind of take care of it themselves every now and again. And certainly to a greater degree than we maybe saw from St. Louis last year. So yeah, I get it.

I get wanting strikeout guys because, you know, they're fun. Yeah, they were only a little bit below average defensively according to defensive runs saved an ounce above average. So maybe it was partly just that the opportunities were tough. But relative to what they normally are. Yes, right. Yes, they're usually standouts, but the bad defensive efficiency might reflect the lousy pitching as much as the defense. I don't know. And then I guess the last transaction, the last hiring, a Cardinals-related hiring.

Is this finally the last managerial vacancy of the offseason has been filled? Is it? I think they're all. I think we're done now. Yeah. So the Padres have hired Mike Schilt, former Cardinals manager, who has been in player dev for the Padres for the past couple years. And he was fairly successful with the Cardinals as manager, took them to the playoffs, I think, three out of four years, and then was dismissed somewhat surprisingly after their late season run, their 17-game winning streak that captivated the sport. He was then dismissed unceremoniously after that. And there were

various reports about why and internal discord. And maybe he hadn't gotten along so well with his coaches, which he denied, but then also with the front office, which he seemed to confirm. But then also with the front office, which he seemed to confirm. And so it seemed like it was less a clubhouse issue than it was maybe a front office field staff issue. Things weren't gelling well there, but fairly successful just in a wins and losses level. You know, and unusual background. We were talking about the disparities in the backgrounds of managers who've been hired. He's one, of course, who never played professionally, always interested in how those guys do. So I don't know. I've seen people point out that,

well, if you're someone who in the past maybe hasn't been on the same page with the front office and then you're going to the San Diego Padres, where that has been a bit of an issue. That is seemingly why Bob Melvin was just allowed to leave and manage for a division rival instead. And A.G. Preller, perhaps difficult to deal with in some ways, and maybe a meddler in ways that some managers might resent, and obviously has had a pretty itchy trigger figure when it comes to dismissing managers and making managerial changes.

They've had a whole lot of turnover in that role. So who knows, really. But just on paper, I guess that might make it kind of curious. But he's been in that organization for a bit. So I guess they have some sense of gelling okay and working well together, at least in a different role. I don't know. I'm of two minds on it, because on the one hand, yes, I think it's fundamentally different to elevate him and do so having had time with him and having a sense of what he is like to work with and it is bringing him in sort of

off the street having heard that some amount of discord contributed to his prior ouster like that seems to allay any of those concerns i do wonder though like and and some of this is probably just a question for for preller as much as it is anything else. What do they think the manager should be like? And do they have a concrete answer to that? And the answer might be no, but it seems like they're a throw managers at the wall and see who sticks kind of organization or have been for the last couple of years.

And that's weird when you're as good as the Padres are or are theoretically going to be if they can win extra innings games. So, I don't know that they have like a comprehensive theory of the manager. And if they do, they sure change it a lot. But, you know, there is familiarity here that I think probably gives them some amount of comfort that they, you know, are going to be able to make things work. But I don't know. It's weird. It's a I didn't like have negative impressions of him during his time in St. Louis. Like, I didn't really have much of an impression of him at all, candidly, until that final season. But yeah, I don't know. I don't know if they

really have like a firm understanding of what they want out of that role. And I think, you know, maybe they'll be able to develop one now. And this one is at the very least probably more informed than many of their prior understandings just given his tenure. But I don't know. It's weird. It's like, what do you guys, what do you like? You know, what do you value in friendship? I don't know if they know the answer to that sometimes.

I don't know if the whole sport has a handle on that. But yes, they have swung from one end of the spectrum to another, the pendulum. It's rapidly oscillating over there. And, you know, you see that historically teams and political leaders, for that matter, you go from one type to another and there's always just a reaction. Oh, we don't like the status quo. Let's do something different. Let's go, you know, we'll go from players manager to hard ass type disciplinarian and back and forth again. And who knows?

Really, it just depends on whether it works with that specific group of players. And who knows how many factors are tied to that. But, yeah, let's see if the Padres can actually deliver on the expectations this year under Schilt. And I guess, lastly, just a bit of banter about Otani, of course, because there was a report by ESPN's Jeff Passon who said that Otani wants to keep a tight lid on his making the rounds this offseason. He said if there's one thing to know about Shohei Otani's free agency, it's that you are unlikely to know much about it until he signs somewhere. If visits between Otani and a team are reported publicly, it will be held against the team. So the circles will be tiny and tight. And I guess that makes sense given what we talked about with Otani last time and just how private he is and doesn't like to divulge a lot about his personal life.

And so he evidently doesn't want this to turn into just a big LeBron type. evidently doesn't want this to turn into just a big LeBron type. The decision doesn't want this to be a big fiasco or people tracking Otani everywhere he goes and trying to read into the meetings that he has with people. But I wonder how you keep that under wraps. If you're entertaining Otani, presumably he's making in-person visits or you're making in-person visits to him. Presumably he's making in-person visits or you're making in-person visits to him. How do you keep that secret? Because he's the biggest star in the sport. He's a celebrity that goes beyond just the usual athlete. And if you want to sell him on your organization and your city and everything, you can't just do that via video, right?

Like you have to be out and about. He's not hard to spot. You know, he's a big recognizable guy. So if you're sending an entourage to see him and obviously like writers and reporters are going to be camped out and trying to keep an eye on this and trying to uncover these things. And so if that's one of the criteria that he's using, it's like, can you keep this secret? Maybe that gives Atlanta a leg up if the Braves are even interested in Otani, because they seem to just somehow clamp down on most transaction news until they announce it themselves, right? So we've talked about that before, like Anthopolis thinking that that's a

competitive advantage for them, that they just run a tight ship, you know, no loose lips sinking ships. And this might be a case where you actually could sink things. I don't know whether this will be like at the top of Otani's list. Like if something gets out, you know, that'll be a disqualifier, a deal breaker. But like what would you do, you know, if you if you want to persuade Otani to sign with your team, but you can't have that be out in the open and you have to have as small a group as possible? Like, how do you do the razzle and dazzle without that getting out? Well, I think that I think a couple of things about this. First, he's probably going to be

somewhat discerning between like there's a difference between someone in the front office leaking it to a beat and like he is out for dinner with a pobo and, you know, a person sees him in the pobo going into the private dining room at a restaurant and they like snap a picture and then they tweet it and they're like, oh my God, Ohtani's going to be a blast. picture and then they tweet it and they're like oh my god otoni's gonna be a blah you know like the time i followed an old guy through downtown seattle thinking that he was dave jimbrowski and was gonna like break news and then i was just like an old guy and i was like oh meg whoops um yeah that the context for that is that they had just fired zarensek and we were like who's gonna be the new gm of the mariners and there's an old guy. And he looked, well, in fairness, he looked, you know, like, in fairness to him and, like, as a continued knock on me, like, more like George Plimpton. But George Plimpton and David Dombreski

looked all, you know, like, and George Plimpton's dead now. So, you know, more confusing. But anyway, it wasn't David Dombreski. And he's not the manager of the Seattle Mariners. He was. They had spent money. But anyway, that's neither here nor

there. What I was going to say is I imagine that that sort of weird ass behavior from an aspiring blogger would probably like wash over him differently than a beat writer learning something because there's an indiscreet member of the front office and you can i mean like you'll be able to tell the difference between those things so there's that i also think that we should remember that this is just like a fundamentally different sort of like tour than what he did when he was coming over from japan like he's been in the league for six years now he has a a sense of major league baseball he knows a lot of Like, he's been in the league for six years now. He has a sense of Major League Baseball. He knows a lot of people already.

He's been to all of these ballparks. He's been to all of these cities. I guess, like, if I could offer any reassurance to front office people, like, all manner of very high-profile big leaguers go in and out of driveline every year. And you know what you never know? That, until they tell you you know sometimes you get it on their instagram but not with a really high profile guys you know they

do it with the guys who can't throw strikes but um anyway feeling sassy but in a fun way you know like not in a grumpy way all of that to say i bet it's very tense but I bet that if you are in that sort of rigmarole, you're trying to keep what you're offering quiet anyway because you don't want it to be used against you as you negotiate with him and his representation. So you're probably, you know, directionally kind of aligned. And then you can do the thing that teams always do after he signs somewhere else and be like, we tried. So, I mean, I don't know. Doesn't every fan base assume that their team is trying at least a little? Unless you're reading about the Mariners. Then you're maybe not.

One would hope. It seems like there's opportunity for sabotage if you catch wind of his visit to another team. Then you could, yeah, you could link leak that news, right? As the rival front office, just to sink that team's chances. I'm sure he is being secretive himself because he must have to arrange. I mean, it must be a choreographed tour. I don't know how many teams he's visiting in person or visiting him, but he can't have two team visits on one day. So he has to lay it out and make sure there are no conflicts. But I guess he probably

would not tell team A that he's talking to team B that day. It's like, oh, no, I can't come that day because I'm visiting this other team. I'm washing my hair. Yeah, you might be vague about it. It's like, you know, if you're dating multiple people at the same time, you might say, well, I'm not free for dinner that night, but you might not say

because I have another date or something. You know, you don't want to hurt the other person's feelings. So maybe he'll just be like, yeah, that day doesn't work for me, but not because that's the day that I will be touring this other facility. Right. So I'm just thinking like he has to keep it secret, too, because if news of his schedule leaks, then other teams could try to undercut each other by saying, oh, I heard that he's visiting this team. Right. They could send

a tip to someone. Right. They could do all sorts of corporate espionage. I'm generally of the opinion that if you are dating multiple people, you should make sure they know that and are okay with it because otherwise it's kind of rude. Yeah, you want to be on this. But, you know, maybe people – like, are we exclusive? Like, that's a good conversation to have if you're in that situation. But also maybe, you know, being vague about the details. Sure. To spare.

Yeah. To spare someone's feelings. I bet they've been preparing for this exact conundrum for months now. You know, I'm sure that his agent has been doing a bunch of work to figure out sort of what is the ideal sequencing do you have teams come to you initially and then you go to cities to once you've like pared things down and have a list of finalists you know or do you do that but have a couple like misdirects in that group and you know people are going to feel sort of ill-used if that's true. But if you're not studying with them, do you really care? It's a business.

It's not personal. It's a business. But I bet that they've been sort of game planning the ideal way to pull it all together for a while now. Ideally, they're only going to have to do it the one time. So I'm sure that they're pretty keen to execute it in a way that gets him exactly what he wants, both in terms of the amount of money, but also, you know, the ancillary stuff, the where and the when and the, I like this kind of restaurant and I want to be able to get this kind of coffee and, you know, that kind of stuff.

Like there is stuff that isn't just the money that matters here, even if the money is ultimately, I imagine, what will matter the most. Yeah. Yeah. I did. If you want to learn a little more about Shohei Otani than you do in the course of listening to this podcast. Yeah, I know. There's only so much. How much more can there be? A little more because after we talked last time about the new Otani documentary, Disney ESPN documentary, a couple people messaged me about the existing documentaries that were done by NHK, Japan's big public broadcaster.

That's right. And I was aware that these existed but hadn't watched them. It's hard to find them because you can't stream them through official channels in the u.s i don't think but some members of the otani fan community have uploaded these things to various sites and i will link to where you can find them if you're interested but i watched a couple i think they've done multiple because it's kind of like a after each season they do an otani documentary that's like a diary of that year kind of. So I watched the one from after 2018 and the one from after 2021.

And they're like 40-something minutes, so probably shorter combined than the one that we talked about last week. But some of the things that we lamented that were missing from that one, you did get a glimpse of those things here. Oh, cool. Yeah. Maybe because Otani has a longer relationship with NHK and they've covered him since the start of his career when he was a kid, basically. And maybe they had this agreement worked out for a while, but they had people following him around and getting behind the scenes footage. Like there was no behind the scenes in the new documentary, really. And it was all talking heads and interviews and it was fine. It was good. But there were some perspectives that just you

didn't really see there. And so in these NHK ones, you know, it was as simple as like seeing footage of him practicing or rehabbing or just entering and exiting the ballpark. And like they had people in the car with him and Ipe when they were driving home from the ballpark. And Otani at that time at least didn't have a driver's license, very relatable for me. And so he was saying, you know, he doesn't know which freeway to take or which exit. He doesn't know which direction Los Angeles is. All of it very, very familiar to me, also a non-driver. But you've got footage of what he eats and him eating out or having food from the ballpark and talking about how he cooks and how he thinks he leads MLB in omelets made.

He's a very proficient and prolific omelet maker, apparently. And, you know, like just getting to look like he's a little more relaxed, I think. You know, he laughs more in this footage than he did in a little more staged and polished documentary that we were just watching. So I actually liked it. And we talked about how well we don't get to hear from his family or his parents or anything. His father is in the 2021 documentary. Yeah. And there's footage of him training at driveline. Actually, you were just saying you barely see that, but there is some footage of him there. And we also got a sense of what he was like as a young player because we wanted more of that.

Like was he just a natural? And he says he was not. He started playing in his third year of elementary school and there's video of him hitting and pitching in middle school when he was not an exceptional player apparently. was not an exceptional player, apparently. And his dad said he never thought he'd become a pro, let alone the best player in the world. And his control wasn't that great as a pitcher. So his dad was worried he would hurt someone. Apparently, even now, or at least as of 2021, his mother doesn't watch him pitch because she's worried about that. And like the new documentary has that vision board, basically, that he made for himself when he was in high school or he was young about how these are the awards I want to win and everything. But this one had shots of this notebook where he and his dad wrote to each other about his baseball games like after each of his games.

So Otani would be like, well, here's what I could have done better. And his dad would say, you know, here's what you did well or here's what I could have done better. And his dad would say, you know, here's what you did well, or here's what you could have done better. So Otani himself said he was not a natural, that he was not more naturally gifted than anyone, but that he works harder. He said that that's his real strength, that he can just outwork everyone. You know, of course, he's also like 6'4

and incredibly athletic and everything. But, you know, I guess it didn't come instantly to him. He feels at least like he really had to work for it. And I'm sure even the most athletically gifted players, they do have to work for it. And maybe that's the story they prefer to tell themselves. Like, I worked for everything I got, not just I was given these gifts that other players weren't.

But at least according to him and his dad, it wasn't like he was totally dominating from day one. He actually had to get good over time. I think that it's almost always a combo. Yeah. I do think that there are definitely guys who are able to elevate their game either from good to great or great to spectacular because of their want, as the scouts would say. And I think that the place where you often see the biggest difference there, well, there's work and by that do we mean training or do we mean preparation for particular games? Like, obviously, that is its own kind of thing, right? Where if you are particularly committed to sort of maximizing your preparation for any given game, you might be in a much better spot than people who aren't willing to do that. But I think the place where it really, really makes a difference is as these guys age, because there's the shift that occurs from maximizing present ability to sort of maintaining and being able to stay on the field and stay healthy and, you know, adapt your game as,

you know, certain things might fail you as your leaves you, as your bat speed declines. So I do think that it makes a big difference. And I appreciate when players sort of emphasize how much work they're doing, not in like an eyewash way, but I don't know, it means something to hear like Otani say, no, I had to work for this. Like, I had to do all this efforting because it's easy to look at that guy and be like, I mean, geez, like, why does anybody even try if you're not built like that? Like, what's the point? And it's like, well, no, you can do a lot with a lot less than what he has naturally. And one way to emphasize that is what he's able to do even above and beyond his sort of innate gifts with prep and what have you. So work hard.

But I think people should take Joe Maddon's advice and have lives outside of baseball because that's just healthy, you know. Yeah, he did. There was no like gossipy, sensational, like, you know, anything about his life off the field, really. He said, and I quote, I wake up, I go to the ballpark, I play, I go home, I sleep. That's basically it. I get eggs and milk at the store. I make myself an omelet and cook rice. So I just, yeah, I just, I don't know that there's like a juicy, dark side, sensational side to Otani's off the field life.

Like even though you get more of a behind the scenes look in these NHK docs, that just seems to be who he is. But he does talk about how he wasn't into analytics in Japan. Like, he never looked at stats or anything. But then when he got to MLB, he did start to do that. And it shows, you know, he had these, like, binders with info on every pitcher and hitter. And then, of course, we've seen him with the iPad all the time. But he started to embrace that when he struggled in spring training in 2018.

And he was like, maybe I need some help here where I could use some extra info. And he also talked about how he visited Ichiro that spring for an hour. And Ichiro basically just like gave him a pep talk and told him to trust his talent and that that was a big boost for him. So yeah, it was enlightening and it was fun. Like there's some footage of him getting sprayed with beers in a shopping cart in the clubhouse shower after his first win as a big league pitcher. And that was so weird. Yes. It gives a greater sense of like how big a fan impact he's made and how he's increased attendance and interest in baseball and all of that. And, you know, he also talks about like how upset he was after the first UCL injury. And he was like, yeah, I was basically a shut in for a week. I mean, I'm usually a shut in, but he was like, I was all alone. I mean, I'm usually alone. Again,

very relatable for someone with the talent and the performance that he has, you know, not someone that someone like me would typically identify with or be like, yeah, I recognize my life in this guy's life. We would seem to have nothing in common on the surface. But yeah, there are aspects of him that make me feel like, oh, Shohei, he's just like us. Look, man, there's nothing wrong with wanting to be at home. And there's nothing wrong with being single-minded. And, you know, he only has so much time to be this. I just, you know, I hope there's so much pressure on this guy.

You know, there are such high expectations and, you know, he is carrying this great. I don't know that he would even necessarily call it a burden, but there is this weight that he has to carry around with him by being the best and having that impact that you mentioned, like being able to put butts in seats and inspiring young people to care about baseball, like that's a weighty thing. And if shouldering that is fulfilling to him, then that's wonderful. isn't an omelet, although omelets underrated as a dinner, in my opinion, you know, people don't, don't, don't just like confine your omelet intake to breakfast. That's a, that's an all purpose meal in my opinion. But if he wants to do something else, I just hope that he is able to, to do that because, you know, he's a person and he has tender human feeling, even if he, you know, keeps it to himself. Yeah. Yeah. These docs had footage, close-up footage of the blisters on his hand from the batting practice that he took so much batting. Yeah.

So you get a good look at him, but maybe a look that you wouldn't want in some ways. I don't need that. You know, Bauman wrote about Woodruff and, you know, the Kyle Wright trade and sort of shoulder injuries and why teams might be squeamish. And in the course of that, he did like good research. You know, he read academic papers. He engaged the medical literature. And that included looking at photos of like the insides of people's shoulders. And to that I say, no, thank you. Hardest pass. Yeah.

I did learn more about his dog, whose name has still not been confirmed, but the breed is called a Quaker. That's the nickname of the breed. A Quaker? Quaker. Oh, a Quaker? Not a Quaker. No, it's a Quaker? Quaker. Oh, a Quaker? Not a Quaker. A Quaker. Quaker. Yeah, it's a longer name because it's a Dutch dog. Okay. And it's called a Quaker for short. It really sounds like

you're saying Quaker. I just want you to know. Quaker. Quaker. It's a duck hunting kind of dog originally. Sure, yeah. It looks like a duck hunting dog. Yeah. The new dog, of course, was not in these old documentaries, but there is footage of him playing with one of the Angels trainers' dogs, Ziggy, and cuddling with that dog. So he has been a dog guy. I learned that he grew up, his family had a dog named Ace that he was very close to. I think lived to be 15 or so and died in 2017. Aw, that's a long life. Yeah, he wanted to have a dog ever since then, but he wasn't allowed one, I guess, when he was with the fighters in MPB because dogs weren't allowed in the dorm where he stayed.

And then there's the travel and everything. But he hung out with Andrew Heaney a lot because Heaney had dogs. And apparently he's also... I'm sorry. Can I interrupt you for a moment? Andrew Heaney is going to hear all of this and be like, wait, did he not like me? He just liked my dogs? He was just using me for my dogs. Yeah. Yeah. But he's okay with cats too. He likes cats as well. So, you know, two-way pet lover. So yeah, you don't have to worry about him just being a dog guy. He's okay with all.

I like dogs, to be clear. I'm not anti-dog. As we discussed, I think that sometimes they don't have to be at breweries. But, like, sometimes it's fine. So, I'm pro-dog. I'm a dog gal. I just don't have them. You know, I have cats and stuff.

Well, more information as it comes to light. And also, we were reliably informed by some listeners who are Japanese speakers when we were concerned that Otani might be saying the MLB in the ESPN documentary. He was not actually saying that. That was just the translation. In fact, Japanese doesn't have articles the way that English does. So he's off the hook there. By the way, I just saw that Kyle Gibson is a client of Rowley Sports Management. No relation, I assume? Not that I'm aware of.

But yeah, that is a thing that exists. Yeah, I was going to say, you have a secret sideline as an agent this whole time. I think I would really have to disclose that if I did. Yes, I think probably that would be journalistically sound. But anyway, you had no part in the Cardinals reassembling the Rangers rotation from a few years ago. No, I mean, I was vaguely rude about him just now. So it would be pretty poor treatment of a client if I did. Yeah.

All right. So let's get to our interview, which we're excited about. We're talking to Vanessa Ivy Rose, who is the host of a recently concluded podcast called Reclaimed the Forgotten League, which is a six-part podcast documentary about the Negro Leagues. And Vanessa is also the granddaughter of Turkey Stearns, one of the best baseball players of all time. I don't even need to qualify that. Nope. Perhaps unsung and underrated. So we've talked about various other initiatives, Negro Leagues related celebrations and honors. And we talked on episode 1887, we talked to Ron Teasley, one of the few surviving former Negro Leaguers from the MLB

designated major league period. And we talked to Gary Gillette about the restoration of Hamtramck Stadium in Detroit, which Vanessa has also been involved in. And the field there is named after Turkey Stearns, Turkey Stearns Field. And now we are talking to a descendant of Turkey's as well as a documentarian and teacher. And this was really good. We've talked about other Negro Leagues documentaries that have also been good, but this one, maybe because it was a six-part audio series and because it had the personal connection to a relative, an ancestor, you know, it had the room, it had the space to really go deep into black baseball history and talk to a lot of experts and historians, other people who've been on this podcast before. So I thought it was just really well done. Yeah. You know, when we kind of select other media to engage with, you know, sometimes like I always like the documentaries

that we watch and the movies that we watch. But I really found myself when I got to like episode three of this being like, I'm just gonna listen to the next one, like, right here for me. It was very compelling. I think having a family member of one of these players at the center of it just makes the whole thing so human, even as it, you know, she does such a wonderful job of situating her grandfather in not only the broader story of baseball, but the story of baseball within sort of American society. But having that anchor was, I think, really, really compelling. So this is this is a good one. All right. We'll be right back with Vanessa.

her in, let's listen to a little of Vanessa's grandmother, Turkey Stearns' widow, Nettie Stearns, delivering a speech at Turkey's induction ceremony in Cooperstown in July 2000. Thank you, all you beautiful, wonderful, patient people for sitting and listening to us. Can you imagine how I feel standing up here with all these challenging stars on this platform behind me. Well, I'll tell you, I feel great! Having my husband inducted into the Hall of Fame today will give our family so much meaning to all of you. The months since the announcement have been chaotic and constant reminder of how he was disrespected in life and I want to tell you

there's still disrespect for 21 years after his death. This is certainly an honor that he deserved and we wish that it could have happened during his lifetime so that he could have been a part of the celebration and festivities that have been planned in his honor. Our hope is that the remaining world Negro Leaguers will receive his honor at some time in the near future as well. Well, we're joined now by Vanessa Ivey Rose. She is an educator, but her latest lessons go beyond high school English class.

She's also educating the world about the history of black baseball and about her grandfather, Negro League's legend Norman Turkey Stearns. Two topics she's covered in a new book, Hall of Fame DNA, The Legacy of Norman Turkey Stearns, and a just-concluded six-part podcast called Reclaimed, The Forgotten League. And we're happy to have her with us now to talk about all of those things. Hello, Vanessa. Hi, how are you? Doing great. I wanted to ask you about growing up with a grandfather like Norman Turkey Stearns, even though you never got to meet him, unfortunately.

But I would imagine that each of us has a family legend, some ancestor we've grown up hearing about in my family. It's my great-grandfather, who I'm named after. And so my whole life I've been hearing about his military service and his inventions and all the places he traveled and that sort of thing. But no one outside my family would have heard about him or knew who he was. Whereas when you grow up with a grandfather like Turkey Stearns, it's a little bit of a different story. And it seems like you and Sean Gibson, whom we've had on the pod, and Lindsay Barra, you know, people who've grown up with baseball legends as their forebears, it makes a big mark on their lives. So I'm wondering

when you became conscious of the fact that you were related to baseball royalty. Wow, I love how you put that baseball royalty. You know, to be honest, my grandmother lived with us for most of my life. So I was blessed to have her. And she was married to obviously my grandfather. And she told me stories from the time I was very little, all the way up through her passing, not too long ago, that he was this fantastic baseball legend, right? But at the same time, in the real world, like mainstream looking at sports, and I'm a big ESPN person, I'm a big sports person, just in general, you know, it was like my grandfather's name was nowhere to be found, you know, until he went into the Hall of Fame in the year 2000. So it was kind of strange that, you know, in my family, he was this legend. And if someone really knew the Negro

Leagues, then of course they knew who Turkey Stearns was. But at the same time, it was like there was this level of invisibility within the mainstream, which is why the podcast is so important, you know, nowadays. But, you know, working really hard to advocate for him. I've been doing that for decades. My mom and my aunt also, and of course my grandmother when she was living, advocated for my granddad for 21 years, writing letters, you know, trying to ensure that he would be in the Hall of Fame, which did come to fruition in the year 2000.

But, you know, like I said, depending on who you ask, they've never heard of Turkey Stearns in the podcast. We even say, you know, there's this one part where I went to a baseball game. I live at Comerica Park anyway, but, you know, I'm there with my Turkey Stearns hat on. I had a hat engraved, like, well, it was embroidered with his name on it. And somebody said, Turkey Stearns, What's a Turkey Stearns? Not even knowing he's a person, you know? So that opened my eyes of, you know, wow, there's so much work to do. He's like the greatest batter many people have never heard of. And you're hardly alone in being sort of a standard bearer for your family's legacy within

baseball. A lot of the pod has, you know, interviews with other descendants of Negro Leaguers. How did you start to get connected into that network of people and sort of what role did they play in shaping your understanding of your grandfather's legacy? Well, I was blessed to meet so many people through the Jerry Malloy Conference and through Saber, too, as well. So,

you know, over time, when I've been researching about my granddad, you know, even just going online, I've seen blogs that people have written, or you can find, you know, sometimes Negro League family members online, too, as well through social media. And so, you know, the past few decades, my family has been connected to many people within the world of the Negro Leagues, and they've been sharing so much information. We also formed a Negro Leagues Family Alliance not too long ago. It was not formed by myself or my family, but we ended up joining the Negro Leagues Family Alliance about two years ago, and we were able to connect with those families too. And some of those families are, you know, giving interviews within the podcast. And, you know, Ron Teasley, of course,

is like our number one person from the Negro Leagues Family Alliance that we love to talk about because he's one of the few living Negro Leaguers who is still here to share his story at 96 years old. Yeah. Yeah. And every Negro Leagues legend who is still here to share his story at 96 years old. Yeah. Yeah. And every Negro Leagues legend probably should have gotten more attention than they did up until very recently and maybe even now. But it seems like your grandfather especially is underrated even among the Negro Leagues greats. And I wonder why you think that is because, I mean, he has the nickname going for him.

You hear turkey sterns, you want to know why is he nicknamed that, right? And I guess there's also the fact that, you know, he was quiet, right? He didn't bring a lot of attention to himself. And compared to, say, Cool Papa Bell or Satchel Paige, you know, guys like that who were maybe more colorful characters off the field in some ways. But just in terms of the performance, I mean, if you go by Winsor-Berger placement that we have now, I think he's third among Negro Leaguers after Bullet Rogan and Willie Wells or the Hall of Stats. Adam Drozdky's site has him, I think, eighth among Negro Leaguers. However you slice it, he's got to be top five, I think eighth among Negro Leaguers. However you slice it, he's got to be top five, top 10.

And it seems to me that the game he had would have been so exciting to see him play. I know you talk on the podcast about how you wish you could have, and you've imagined it many times, but his game, because he was such a great all-around player, he leads all Negro Leaguers in the league games that we have recorded in home runs and triples, which is really impressive, right, to be number one in both of those things. I think only nine players in the AL and NL have ever led their league in those two stats in any single season. And so to do it on a career basis, right, and he was also just a great defensive center fielder. on a career basis, right? And, you know, he was also just a great defensive center fielder. Like, if he were around today, a player like that with those skills, I feel like we would all be just obsessed with him, you know, and marveling at his performance. So how do you sort of tell people who aren't aware of him, why they should know so much more about him? And why do you think he hasn't

been better known? Well, I think that, you know, people don't know who he is because, you know, even when I mentioned the Negro Leagues right now as a high school educator or when I go, you know, to a sports game of some kind or I'm just talking to sports fans who can tell you everything about a player top to bottom from their favorite foods, like, you know, just what they did last night, right? They don't know too much about the Negro Leagues whatsoever. And so I think it's just a hidden story. I call them hidden figures often. I refer to them as hidden figures and hidden legends, right?

And so the story of my granddad is the story of many Negro Leaguers. But like you said, because he was so quiet, I think that definitely contributed to why people don't know more about him until they do this extensive deep dive with some historians or people who've shared fantastic information over the years. Granddad went home after baseball games. So he didn't hang out.

He was not very talkative. He was not very social. He didn't hang out with a ton of people. And so the only people who could really share his stories would be people who played directly with him, people who directly saw him play, or my family. And so over time, you know, we've tried to preserve those stories the best that we could. But even myself, I'm trying to put the pieces together over the years. And that's how I met so many people is just, you know, I feel blessed to have the Internet and to live in this time and to connect with these people all over the world who are posting what they know about Turkey and sharing, you know, artifacts that they may have or the historians who are finding newspapers and sharing that information with me in box scores. information with me in box scores, but it really has been like putting a puzzle together, trying to find out the story of my granddad as a person and also as a player too.

Yeah. I mentioned the nickname. I should have mentioned the batting stance too, which you hear so much about that people couldn't believe he even hit the ball, let alone hit it as well as he did. So that again, if we had footage of those games. Yes, no footage. None. None of my grandkids. Not one thing. Not one thing. We watch SportsCenter all day. We can pull up everything on our phones, right?

All these amazing highlights and clips of everybody else. Yeah. And it just pains me that I have nothing in terms of footage, not one thing that I can look at. So, you know, I'm blessed to have the audio recording. There's an audio recording interview that was done during a Negro Leagues reunion by Joe LaPointe. So I love the fact that Joe LaPointe saved that and the ABC found some secret tape of that too, as well, and shared it with me during the podcast. Yeah. And I read a quote from either your mother or your aunt, one of his daughters, who said that he was basically best friends with Satchel,

which really intrigued me because they seem like such opposites, you know, at least in terms of just, you know, the quotes that you hear from them and the way that they talked about themselves. Your grandfather just, it seems like, you know, just went about his business, right? And was as great in his way, but, you know, you don't have as many quotes that people know about turkey steers as you do about satchels. So I wonder what their relationship was like, you know, whether it was kind of an opposite to tract situation with them. Right, right. Yeah. You know, I, that was my aunt that said that. And again, that was something that was new to me, something that I found out within the past, I would say, year and a half when she mentioned that. And so, you know, I would like to know more about that. I wish

Satchel was here to tell us more about that. But, you know, because granddad was so quiet, he let his bat do the talking. We don't have too much information about his friendships. One thing that Ron Teasley shared with me, who's the 96-year-old living Negro leaguer in Detroit, who played for the New York Cubans, he said that my granddad actually mentored him a little bit, and he saw him play quite a few times. And so, you know, when I had the chance to interview him for our podcast, that was very special to me because, you know, as I mentioned, I don't even have one story to share or one conversation that I could share that I actually had with my granddad. Everything has been through someone else.

So sitting with a Negro leaguer who's 96, talking to me about my granddad, talking to me about what it was like to play in the Negro leagues, what it was like to travel during that time and just sharing all these rich stories. It was emotional. It literally when we left his house, I was crying because I'm like, you know, I had the opportunity to sit with Ryan Teasley and talk to him and asking things that I wish I could have asked my granddad. So that was really special to have him be a part of the podcast, but also to be a part of my life. You obviously have the perspective of someone trying to piece together this important part of your family history. You have the perspective of being a sports fan and a baseball fan. But I was curious as I was listening how your background as an educator informed your approach to the podcast and sort of what you included and what you didn't, what you assumed fans of baseball might know and what you probably rightly assumed they still had to learn about this chapter of baseball's history.

How did that kind of play into what you what and how you piece together this six episode arc? You know, this was a beautiful experience that really fell into my lap. I would like to think it was orchestrated by Grandpa and Grandma up in heaven, you know, leading the ABC team to me. But working as an educator right now, a lot of the things that I teach about in my classroom are so parallel to the story of the Negro Leagues and very parallel to the story of Reclaimed Leagues and very parallel to the story of

Reclaimed, you know, in terms of the podcast. So one thing that we talk about often is how baseball, well, we try to figure out what is the story of America, right? My classes are American literature and American history that are paired together. And so we look at, you know, how we can understand America through the lens of literature and obviously through history too in historical context. But baseball is the story of America, right? So when we think about, you know, whose voices were being elevated during the Jim Crow era, for example, and whose voices were being silenced, those are things we talk about in our class.

And that's directly related to the podcast, too, because people know who Babe Ruth is. You know, they probably have heard Lou Gehrig's name before, especially around here in Detroit. They know Ty Cobb, but they don't know Turkey Stearns. They don't know Ron Teasley. They don't know. A lot of them don't know Josh Gibson, one of the bigger names, or Satchel Page, another big name, right? So this podcast was so important because it gave us the opportunity to talk about whose voices we're missing, whose voices have been elevated, you know, and it teaches us not just about our past, but also about our present and our future. How can we create some sustainable change based off of what we're learning? We don't want to just look at it as a mirror and learn about ourselves and then also just learn about what was happening out in

the world. But how can we use the information in the podcast to create sustainable change moving forward? And how does this mirror some of the things that are going on right now? Because all forms of oppression are connected. So it was awesome to work on a podcast while also teaching because I'm like, wow, some of the lessons we're literally talking about this week and last week, like this is stuff that we covered in the podcast too as well. So it allowed me to dive deeper into that and to hopefully, like I said, create change

by waking people up and introducing them to things that they haven't seen and meeting these hidden figures for the first time. Well, I think that was one of the things that really resonated with me. I think fans of today's game who are not as familiar with that era of baseball generally, it's black and white photos to them, right? It feels like it's at this profound remove from where we are now. to them, right? It feels like it's at this profound remove from where we are now. And I think one of the great things you did was to bring that story through to, I don't want to say it's

conclusion, but it's present, right? And the implications that exclusion has had and continues to have on the game and who we see play it and who has access to it now. And I, you know, I think it's really easy for us to be like, well, if the photos are black and white, that had to be a million years ago. But like you said, like some of these folks are still alive today. Like they're, it's, it's not out of living memory yet. It's still here with us. Yeah. We want people to realize, you know, that this is the story of now. And, you know, we're celebrating 100 years since my granddad moved to Detroit from Tennessee to start his professional career. He moved in 1923 to Detroit. And here we are in 2023 celebrating a centennial. Today, you know, we stand on his shoulders and the shoulders of people in the Negro Leagues.

They paved the way for us. Like, what are we doing to pave the way for the next generation? How are we using the information in the podcast to help create sustainable change in a positive way? Yeah, that's one thing you talked about on the show as you're kind of getting to know your grandfather even better through doing this deep dive into his history. You talked about how he was a huge Tigers fan for his whole life, the rest of his life, even after his playing career. And he also worked at the auto body shop that was owned by Walter Briggs, who owned the Tigers during that time. And you try to puzzle out how could he have still rooted so wholeheartedly for the Tigers and worked for a man like that who wouldn't employ him to play baseball.

Obviously, he had the skill to be a star for the Tigers during his career if he had the opportunity to do that. So how have you made sense of that? Just seemingly his lack of bitterness or his ability to enjoy that baseball, even though he was barred from that stadium during his playing days, at least on the field. Right. That's been such a lesson for me. I think in the beginning, I didn't understand it. And I kept asking my grandma faithfully, I mean, repeatedly, like, Grandma, tell me more, because I thought she was leaving something out of the story, right? Like, Grandma, tell me, what did Granddad say about racism? What did he say about not being able to play for the Tigers? What did he say about Walter Briggs? Like, I thought that there would be at least some like

fiery quotes or maybe some anger and frustration that he would share. And I knew that he was quiet, but I'm like, there's no way you could be a star for the Detroit Stars working in the factory for the man who literally owns the Tigers. And he's not giving you a shot because he's saying no jigs with Briggs. Right. Literally dehumanizing you every day, viewing you as service and nothing more. Like Granddad had to have something to say about that. And she always said the same thing every time she would just say, he just said, that's the way things were. And I was so frustrated by that. I'm like, so did he just give up? Did he not care? Did he just block it out? And as I've grown, I've thought about this more and I just

have reflected so many times and I'm like, you know what? Maybe he was saying that I'm not looking for external validation. You know, I know who I am. I'm confident in who I am. I'm going to be the best version of myself, no matter what's going on around me. And I think that's what he did. He was a man of integrity. He was someone who worked hard at anything that was put in front of him, you know, whether it was family life, professional baseball or working at the laundromat or, you know, taking care of his grandkids. You know, everyone shares the same stories about his integrity, his hard work, his dedication. felt like, okay, I need to make sure that I'm confident in who I am internally and that I don't let bitterness, you know, penetrate my heart because that's destructive. So he's very inspiring to me in that way. I would like to think that that's a great way to live your life. And I try to model that in everything that I do too as well. So I'm grateful that that was his approach. And I'm glad that I've grown to

understand it. Ben mentioned that every family has sort of mythology within it. But I don't think either of us have had the honor of watching a family member of ours inducted into Cooperstown. I think we're probably not going to get to check that off the list. And so you go into it a bit in the pod, but I just, I wonder what that day was like for you, what your memories of it are and what it ended up meaning particularly to your grandmother. Wow. You know, I was 16 when that was happening. And so I think back to 16 and how young you are and you're worried about getting your license, right? At 16.

you're worried about getting your license, right? At 16. Which is kind of funny because when I was in driver's training, that's when I heard the announcement about granddad being inducted to the Hall of Fame. So literally in the car with the driver's instructor, I asked him if I could turn the radio on. And we heard the announcement like maybe 45 seconds after that was super lucky but you know when we went to Cooperstown my mom is she's also an educator my grandmother was an educator and my aunt everybody's in education my family pretty much and so they wanted to prepare and make sure that the speech was going to be on point and so my mom was going over to speech a million times with my grandmother, and I was in charge of keeping the time to make sure it didn't go too long or that it wasn't too short. And so I had heard the speech a bunch of times,

but my grandmother in this process was very comfortable with herself. She was very proud. It felt like she knew that this was going to happen and that she had been preparing for it her whole life. And so she was just ready to step into that moment. I guess when you write letters for 21 years, you obviously think that this is going to happen. But I was just admiring her confidence. That's really what I remember the most from that time. And when she did get up to give the speech, and of course, Cooperstown is a world of its own. It's like a baseball planet, in my opinion.

She stood up there. Obviously, there's mostly men on the stage. And she actually was the only woman on the stage. And so when she stood up to give her speech, She just stepped right into the moment and she started being herself. I mean, she talked about baseball, of course, but she told the crowd that they look beautiful. And she wanted to talk about how she felt being there. And she's like, do you know how I feel standing up on the stage? I feel great. And the crowd absolutely lost it. Everybody's laughing. I look down at my mom and she's like, no, why did she say that? That is not part of her speech. And I'm just

cracking up because I'm like, that's my grandma, right? She's full of humor, full of life, and she's going to be herself. So even though she freestyled, you know, a little Tony the Tiger in there for the beginning of her speech, I think it captivated everyone. But she just wanted to honor Granddad. And she was so grateful for being there. And I think she that was the biggest smile I'd ever seen on my grandmother's face, to be honest, the entire time. She fit right in. She's chopping it up with Sparky Anderson and everybody. She had been friends with them forever.

And they loved her. Everyone was eating it up. So it was an amazing time. Yeah, I'm glad she got to be there for that. I think he was the 17th figure from the Negro Leagues maybe who was finally admitted to Cooperstown. And I think the first nine were inducted while he was still alive. So that could have happened before his death in 79. And of course, that would have been incredible if he had gotten to be honored in person.

But, you know, as you document in the podcast, it's just there's always waiting for something, right? Even when the door is finally cracked open, it's not pushed open all the way. It's bit by bit by bit. And you have to fight for every little bit. And as you documented in the pod, just letter writing campaigns for decades and decades to make that happen, even though he was just inarguably deserving based on what we know now, of course. Yeah, you know, it's kind of shocking. They made the announcement in 2020.

MLB made the announcement about including the Negro League stats into the official record. And, you know, like I said, we're celebrating 100 years since Granddad moved to Detroit to start his career. So, you know, looking at the timing of things, I'm glad you mentioned the word wait, because there's been so much waiting involved when it comes to the Negro Leagues, and there's only a few Negro Leaguers left who are actually living. So one thing we want to make sure that we do is honor these players while they're here. Give them their flowers now. I mean, they have waited so long.

Are we going to continue to wait? Will my parents be here when Granddad Stats are finally a part of the official record? I want them to be here. My mom is celebrating turning 76 in a few days. So, I mean, we have been waiting for a very long time to see a lot of these things put into place. And we're very anxious to see what MLB is going to do next in terms of, you know, making sure that these stats

get into the official record in a timely manner. Well, and I can only imagine how frustrating it is, particularly given that, you know, you have sites like Fanagraphs, like Baseball Reference, where you wrote an essay, you know, round of inclusions, even if it gets supplemented later. Obviously, this record is far from complete. You know, we don't know what box scores someone might find in somebody's attic tomorrow, right? We might be able to supplement it, but it just seems like there's more than enough now. Yes. I'm so glad you said that because, I mean, depending on who you talk to, it seems like people are a little bit all over the place with this,

but I mean, it seems pretty obvious that we have the resources, every resource that we would possibly need, we have it right now. So we need to take action in terms of making sure, like you said, there probably will need to be some revisions over time, but that shouldn't hold up the process of actually doing this, especially when, you know, the announcement was made in 2020 and there pretty much had been silence up until just recently in terms of announcing that there's a committee, you know, but it was like, okay, wait, what was the plan when the announcement was made in 2020? There obviously had to be a lot of conversation pertaining to that prior to that announcement in terms of having a committee and,

you know, putting this plan into place. So, you know, we're waiting to hear the details, but again, we don't want to wait too long. It seems like we've been waiting an eternity already, especially when we don't have those Negro Leaguers here to see this happening. Yeah, it was reported earlier this year that MLB was not going to partner with and make a deal with Seamheads, which has been the standard bearer for collecting and displaying Negro League stats. And then just this month, as I know you saw, it was reported that they finally did do a deal

and that they and RetroSheet will be working together with Elias to comb through all those stats and present them somehow. So hopefully that means that there will be some movement on this soon. And, you know, it's great that you can find it at various other sites as of now. But I wonder what else you're hoping for when it comes to either the integration of the stats or other events and celebrations and recognitions. There's going to be the game at Rickward Field next year, of course. Yeah. But I know that there are other initiatives, other things that you and other families are hoping that MLB will do or that the wider baseball community can do. Yeah, you know, how much time do you have?

You have the mic. I have a long, long list of things that I would love to see. The stats announcement, anyways, like when that announcement was made in 2020, I had no idea that that was even on it on the table. Because, like I said, you know, watching baseball, I watch baseball all the time. I live at Comerica Park. I hadn't heard anything about that even being a possibility. We knew, of course, that the Negro Leaguers have always been major leaguers. We knew that. But in terms of like a public announcement, public recognition beyond Negro Leagues Day that the Detroit Tigers do within my city,

you know, there's not much in terms of celebrating the Negro Leaguers. So I was happy to see that and I was happy to hear that. But like we talked about before, you know, we're still kind of waiting to see what's next. So I think that the inclusion of the stats is just a start there definitely should be like a lifelong commitment from MLB in terms of making sure that the recognition continues in a multitude of ways I love the fact that like for example MLB the show has the video game yeah where they're oh my gosh, isn't that amazing? Being able to play as

the Negro Leaguers on a game that my students, for example, came up and shared with me that they had already been playing the game when I mentioned that my granddad was Turkey Stearns when I was just introducing myself to my class this year. And I didn't mention anything about the baseball game, Stearns when I was just introducing myself to my class this year. And I didn't mention anything about the baseball game, but they literally came up and said, oh yeah, I know about the Negro Leagues because I've been playing MLB the show. And, you know, they went into a conversation about that. And I'm like, wow, that's the first time that's ever happened to me personally, where someone has shared that they found out about the Negro Leagues through playing a video game or through another avenue that wasn't coming from me. So I'm ecstatic to see what else is in the works,

and I would love to hear from MLB in terms of what their plan is for that. I have many ideas, of course. Like I said, I know we don't have time to get into all of them, but I definitely would love to see what they've been thinking about and what they've been talking about because they have to have a plan. We just haven't heard too much about it. What about the work of the Hall of Fame? You've talked about the waiting. Obviously, your family had to wait. And the way that the committee structure is set up, at least as it's currently constituted, you make the point in the podcast that they seem to always be changing the way that they're determining, you know, what group of players or managers or

umpires they're considering in any given time, you know, are there particular things that you would like to see them do to try to accelerate that process so that there can be a greater sense of urgency with acknowledging the careers and lives of these players so that they have family members around to continue to enjoy that and see it themselves. Absolutely. And like I said, we have the luxury of having some pretty incredible historians who are still with us that I have learned, like I said, almost everything. I've heard, and my mom has shared this too as well. that I have learned, like I said, almost everything.

I've heard, and my mom has shared this too as well. My mom is older than me, obviously by 30-something years, 36 years in a few days. And so she said that she, mostly everything that she learned about Granddad, she learned through these historians that we've met, right? And so they have the knowledge. They have filing cabinets worth of information. They have newspaper clippings, box scores, everything that you can think of, everything that you need.

Obviously, we don't have as much footage or we barely have any. Like I said, there's none of Turkey Stearns, but there's very little footage of the Negro Leagues that exists just in general. But everything that you would need, you have it right now in this time. So I would love to see, you know, the commissioner lead the charge with that in terms

of making sure that his legacy is the legacy of change. His legacy is a legacy of honoring and respecting the Negro leagues because he obviously does care about and respect them to an extent since he shared the announcement in 2020. And so, you know, what's next? I would love to hear what the plan is. Like I said, I have definitely some ideas about a few things that can be done, but I'm not the commissioner. You know, I would love to hear what the MLB has ready to go. And I would love to see that they're working with all of these incredible historians and statisticians and everybody, like everybody that has information on Negro Leagues is ready to share that info and to collaborate. So how do we get that done? Yeah, because you call it the Forgotten League in

your podcast. Fortunately, it's been a little less forgotten lately. You have a show like yours and you have the stats process and you have some other documentaries and other celebrations that have come out. So it's better remembered than it was as recently as, say, several years ago. But it could be better remembered still. Right. And one thing you do in the show, you go back to the very beginning of black baseball and then to the present as well. And you talk about some of the trends that have led to fewer black players being in Major League Baseball right now and the causes of that and

why it could change or how it could change. And we've talked a little bit on previous episodes about just the costs associated with amateur baseball and travel ball and showcases and all of that. But for people who aren't as aware, can you talk a little bit about why the percentage of players who are Black in MLB has gone down so precipitously and any signs of hope on the horizon? Yeah, I mean, there's a multitude of things. I don't think it's just one thing that you can point to in terms of, you know, talking about why black participation in baseball is not as high as it once was. But, you know, looking at specifically segregation, that impacted where we are today. Because if you look back at how long the league was segregated, people will think, oh, well, everything changed with Jackie Robinson like once he could play then everything

was all good right and obviously that's the danger of a single story or not having the full picture not having the full understanding of what it looked like for Jackie to integrate baseball and what problems came along with it and the complexities of that too as well and what happened to the Negro Leagues after he you know integrated baseball so I think segregation the history of it has impacted where we are today a lot of people like to point at Michael Jordan and say you know he's the reason why black kids don't play baseball because everybody wants to play basketball but with his rise to fame and just becoming one of the most well-known athletes of all time and all the cool factor that went with

it, right, of the Jordan gym shoes, the be like Mike slogan that was taking over the world. You know, I played basketball too. So I have every single Michael Jordan jersey, I think, that was ever made except for the Washington Wizards one. So like when he changed his number to 45, I had that one. Like black community has always loved basketball too as well. But looking at accessibility, looking at costs, looking at the resources, if you drive around, are people, are little black kids, for example, out playing baseball or throwing the ball around, even at their house? Do they have a mitt? Do they have a bat? Do they have a ball? I honestly haven't even seen black kids because I was just having this conversation with someone else recently. I haven't seen any black kids wearing my hometown team, the Detroit Tigers jerseys. And I find that kind of shocking because, like I said, I work at a high school with 1,700 kids.

You know, I'm out in society a lot. I've never seen a black kid wearing a Detroit Tigers jersey that I can remember. It's always Pistons, Lions, and honestly, everything else, even stuff that's not local for, you know, here. They would have a LeBron jersey or a Steph Curry jersey before they would have a Tigers jersey. And just so many people have never even been to a game in the Black community. I want to, you know, I've worked in various schools where I've actually been the person who's been taking Black kids and Black teenagers to their very first baseball game. So there's a lot of things at play in terms of looking at the intersectionality of it all. But we're hoping to

see more young Black fans, more young Black players. And that's, again, something that the podcast can do. It can spread awareness about this information and help people get involved so they can figure out how to help remedy this situation. You talk in the podcast about Rube Foster, known as the father of Black baseball, organized the Negro Leagues. And I've always wondered whether his premature passing would have changed anything if he had still been around. Because as he mentioned in the pod, he had this dream of maybe we could eventually integrate in a way that wouldn't lead to the dismantling of the Negro Leagues. You know, that we wouldn't have these players basically stolen by the AL and NL owners and then have attendance decline along with the quality of the Negro Leagues, you know, that we wouldn't have these players basically stolen by the AL and NL owners and then have attendance decline along with the quality of the play. And because he died

in 1930 and was ill for years before that, he was such a transformative figure. You know, he just galvanized everyone and organized everyone. And I wonder whether you think that his premature death changed anything about the course of black baseball history or the Negro Leagues or whether it was just inevitable that it would go down the way that it did. Yeah, no, he was such a great pioneer for the game. would have advocated to make sure that the Negro Leagues were at least preserved in some way or that there was a joint collaboration as opposed to just taking all of the best talent you know and and obviously some of the talent never made it there too right because some people passed away before the chance to integrate came along or because of the quota system too as well not having as many opportunities for players who were deserving they didn't get a chance to play because of the quota

system and various things that were happening at the time so I think if you had those strong you know leaders that fully understood all the complexities of the Negro Leagues and obviously someone who founded the Negro Leagues, yeah, definitely things would look different. Not just then, but also now, right? Because the impact that he could have had on others too as well in terms of influencing them and helping them really understand the complexities of everything.

I think, you know, definitely that we would see a change. We definitely would see a whole different landscape. And the Negro Leaguers also help provide an opportunity for all Black athletes in every major sport, right? So I think we don't have that conversation enough either, because what if they never continued? What if that league had never started? And we know it was multiple leagues, right? if the negro leagues didn't exist if once they were excluded from major league baseball they just stopped playing all together and chose to do something else they went into you know becoming a plumber or or a carpenter or whatever right just chose different professions right so i think that think that one of the things

that people don't talk about enough is that the Negro Leagues is an example for where we are today. And it also helped to open the door for athletes because it doesn't matter if they are playing basketball or football or other sports, they still stand on the shoulders of those Negro Leaguers and have those connections to them.

It's about making sure they understand what the connections are. And I hope more people will start to explore that. And I've seen Shaq walking around with the Homestead Grays jacket on. I've seen Patrick Mahomes wearing a Kansas City Monarchs jersey. So I think some people are starting to get the connections, but we definitely need to talk about it a lot more. Yeah, I thought you did a really nice job of just illuminating the ways in the podcast that the Negro Leagues and black baseball in general, it's just, you know, kind of American history and microcosm, right? It's a reflection of what was going on in history and the culture at the time as I guess you teach in your class too. And some people think of baseball as sort of a civil rights trailblazer, like Jackie Robinson was an example for others to follow. And

I guess that's true in some respects, although just sort of celebrating that maybe overshadows, you know, why the situation, what the situation was before that and why he had to integrate it. But, you know, it's leading the trend, I guess, in some ways, but also responding to other trends. And it's just, it's part of the larger tapestry of history, which I thought the podcast did a really nice job of explaining. So I wondered just to end, I wonder whether there's anything that we haven't talked about that you wanted to highlight or shout out. I recommend that everyone listen to the whole show, but anything that we have forgotten to talk about today, whether it's about your grandfather or the Negro Leagues as a whole. I think you all did a fantastic job covering pretty much, you know, everything that I could think of. And and I thank you for caring about the Negro Leagues.

And I can hear it in your voices that you genuinely understand why this is important. And I hope that people, to be honest, even if they don't like baseball, I hope they understand that this is so much bigger than baseball. I hope they understand that this is so much bigger than baseball. And even if they're not into history per se, I mean, we know history is trapped within us and we are trapped in our history to some extent. You know, so we do have an obligation and a responsibility to understand the past so that we won't repeat the mistakes of the past. But I think there's something there for everyone. I just would stress that, you know, even if you don't like baseball, even if you're not into history, I promise if you give this a listen, you will walk away with something valuable. And probably you might need to bring some tissues, too, because Episode 5 gets emotional. And a lot of people have been sharing that.

But I've been very pleased to hear, you know, that people are really loving this podcast. And when I talk to educators and they say, you know, Vanessa, I actually never knew any of this. How is this possible that I'm an educator and I have a master's degree in teaching and in specialized content, and I have never heard of this. Like, this is unbelievable. So I think that speaks volumes about the power of the podcast too. We haven't even talked to you about the other Negro Leagues legend you're descended from because your great-grandmother was the sister of Double Duty Radcliffe, right? If I have the family tree right. So Grandma Nettie, who was married to Grandpa Turkey, Double Duty was her uncle.

Right. Yeah. So that is duty was her uncle. Right. Yes. Yeah. So that is like a wild connection. I know. Like the fact that you're like, that's just another little something for y'all to take home with you. But like we can talk about that on another podcast.

Yeah. That'll be your next project, your next book or pod. Yeah. Well, check out Vanessa's website, HOFdnahallfamedna.com, and you can find her book about Turkey and other information about her work. And then you can find the podcast, Reclaimed the Forgotten League, on multiple podcast feed, the ABC News Reclaimed feed, and then also on the ESPN 30 for 30 podcast feed. Really enjoyed it and really enjoyed talking to you today. So thank you so much, Vanessa. Thanks, Vanessa. Thank you both so much. Thank you for honoring my granddad and the Negro Leaguers. That'll do it for today. Thanks as always for listening. I can honestly

say it didn't occur to me how appropriate it was that we would be talking Turkey during a week when Turkey is on many minds. If you're wondering where that nickname came from, by the way, that's a subject of some debate. There are a number of competing explanations, but according to Turkey Stearns himself, it was because when he was a kid, he had a potbelly on an otherwise lean frame. He grew to become a tall but slim man. Evidently, that was where it came from. Though others said it came from his running style.

With his wide shoulders, his arms seemed to flap a little. We will record one more episode prior to Thanksgiving, so stay tuned for that. For now, you can support Effectively Wild on Patreon by going to patreon.com slash effectively wild, as have the following five listeners who have pledged some monthly or yearly amount to help keep the podcast going, help us stay almost ad-free,

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